Cultural Appropriation

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  • Osborne Russell
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2006
    • 27154

    Cultural Appropriation

    Pretty baffling.

    Opinion: Eyebrow standards makes women feel ostracized, ridiculed

    Lynne Bunch | @lynnebunch11 Jan 25, 2017

    Current American eyebrow culture also shows a prime example of the cultural appropriation in the country. The trend right now is thick brows, and although a lot of ethnic women have always had bushy, harder-to-maintain eyebrows, it has only become trendy now that white women have started to do it.

    http://www.lsunow.com/daily/opinion-...d23e10243.html
    The felony of cultural sticky fingers even extends to exercise: at the University of Ottawa in Canada, a yoga teacher was shamed into suspending her class, “because yoga originally comes from India.” She offered to re-title the course, “Mindful Stretching.” And get this: the purism has also reached the world of food. Supported by no less than Lena Dunham, students at Oberlin College in Ohio have protested “culturally appropriated food” like sushi in their dining hall (lucky cusses— in my day, we never had sushi in our dining hall), whose inauthenticity is “insensitive” to the Japanese.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-a-passing-fad
    Earlier this month, students with the school’s black student union protested outside of the dining hall at the Afrikan Heritage House, after demands for more traditional meals, including more fried chicken, went unmet, according to the campus paper, The Oberlin Review.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/22/u...ning-hall.html
    What is the underlying principle?

    So what makes cultural exchange different from cultural appropriation? As with most points of cultural contention, the difference is power. In particular, the power of the privileged to borrow and normalize a cultural element of another group, while the appropriated group is often demonized and excluded because of that very cultural element.

    Cultural contention? What is that?

    Groups vary in "power", therefore there can be no exchange of culture until their "powers" are equalized? How would that be done? Who would certify that it had been done, so that cultural exchange could proceed?

    Is it cultural appropriation (or, God forbid, racism) when the People's Republic of China manufactures "Make America Great Again" baseball caps?
    Do not speak of "our institutions" unless you make them yours by acting on their behalf.

    Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny (2017)​
  • Osborne Russell
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2006
    • 27154

    #2
    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Part 2

    It's a convoluted-yet-facile, reactive, passive-aggressive argument, but hey:

    1. In many cases, fundamental liberal principles are clearly at stake. These principles are under perpetual attack by puritanical totalitarians.

    2. When the attack is by puritanical totalitarians on the left, liberal politicians don't defend liberal principles.

    3. Thus liberal principles die by a thousand cuts.

    4. Therefore vote for Donald Trump.

    The gap between 3 and 4 is big as all outdoors. I was with you up to that point. Is it the premise that he will frighten the puritanical totalitarians into hiding? How? The President in many cases has no authority whatsoever. What's he going to do, censor a student newspaper editorial about eyebrows? Stop repairing that state's highways? The responses are either ineffectual or disproportionate, to a grotesque degree, either way. And it won't do to just go back over Nos. 1-3 again and again.
    Do not speak of "our institutions" unless you make them yours by acting on their behalf.

    Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny (2017)​

    Comment

    • JimD
      Senior Mumbler
      • Feb 2002
      • 29704

      #3
      Re: Cultural Appropriation

      It's cultural appropriation if the originating culture considers the object in question to be owned and solely for use by them or with permission. We do this in our own culture in many ways, the difference being we do it for individuals and not the culture as a whole. This is why we have so many laws and rules regarding plagiarism, copyright, trademark, patents, and so on. We fully accept these rules as reasonable and legitimate when applied to our individuals but reject the same rationale when applied to other cultures. Our bad, and we should respectfully open our minds a bit and acknowledge that other cultures don't always do things quite the way we do. The West is an enterprise defined by novelty, assimilation, and consumption. It seems natural for us to take for ourselves whatever seems useful from other cultures. To some cultures this amounts to identity theft, which again we recognize as wrong when applied to indiduals but not when applied to cultures.
      Last edited by JimD; 01-30-2017, 11:34 AM.
      There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

      Comment

      • BrianY
        Left Wing Extremist
        • Apr 2004
        • 7942

        #4
        Re: Cultural Appropriation

        I think all the fuss over cultural appropriation is total BS. I can understand how some people might be offended when their cultural traditions and symbols are used inappropriately but for any culture to claim that they have exclusive right to their culture is silly and childish. I've read about groups objecting because groups used their cultural symbols "without permission". Well who are we supposed to get permission from? Does every culture and ethnicity have a person or organization that grants such permission?

        Get over it folks. The entire history of the humanity includes the appropriation, modification and incorporation of elements from different cultures - especially in the good old USA.

        This is one of the things that makes me ashamed of my fellow liberals. Eyebrows?! Seriously?!
        I rather be an American than a Republican.

        Comment

        • TomF
          Recalcitrant Heretic
          • Jun 2003
          • 50978

          #5
          Re: Cultural Appropriation

          It will vary, though, even with members of the community. A friend of mine was adopted into the Gik'tsan people in British Columbia, though he's as Caucasian as I am. If John wore some of the gifts of regalia given him by his family and friends there, it would be viewed as appropriation by folks who didn't take the time to inquire. The fact that John is an Anglican priest wouldn't help either, considering that for some, Christianity's key contributions to First Nations folks have been negative. Clearly the Gik'tsan folks who came to know and respect John felt differently.

          In an increasingly polyglot society (I have the blood of 5 "nationalities" in me, and my kids have 7), whose culture can a mongrel legitimately claim? Can I claim some bits of Polish culture, just because I've some very miniscule blood ties there? Irish, because a good swatch of one grandmother's lineage came from there? Can I only claim identity within a culture when I've met some standard, and if so, what about the countless millions of us who can't?
          If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

          Comment

          • Peerie Maa
            Old Grey Inquisitive One
            • Oct 2008
            • 62451

            #6
            Re: Cultural Appropriation

            Perhaps I had better stop cooking biryani and stir fries.
            It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

            The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
            The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

            Comment

            • Keith Wilson
              Trying to be reasonable
              • Oct 1999
              • 64122

              #7
              Re: Cultural Appropriation

              I think the entire idea of 'cultural appropriation' as something bad is almost 100% complete bullsh!t. Adopting good ideas thought up by other people is one major way that humanity gets better.

              Perhaps I should stop eating sauerkraut, tacos, and General Tso's chicken.
              "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
              for nature cannot be fooled."

              Richard Feynman

              Comment

              • TomF
                Recalcitrant Heretic
                • Jun 2003
                • 50978

                #8
                Re: Cultural Appropriation

                maybe not at the same buffet meal, I agree.
                If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

                Comment

                • David G
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 89764

                  #9
                  Re: Cultural Appropriation

                  Originally posted by TomF
                  It will vary, though, even with members of the community. A friend of mine was adopted into the Gik'tsan people in British Columbia, though he's as Caucasian as I am. If John wore some of the gifts of regalia given him by his family and friends there, it would be viewed as appropriation by folks who didn't take the time to inquire. The fact that John is an Anglican priest wouldn't help either, considering that for some, Christianity's key contributions to First Nations folks have been negative. Clearly the Gik'tsan folks who came to know and respect John felt differently.

                  In an increasingly polyglot society (I have the blood of 5 "nationalities" in me, and my kids have 7), whose culture can a mongrel legitimately claim? Can I claim some bits of Polish culture, just because I've some very miniscule blood ties there? Irish, because a good swatch of one grandmother's lineage came from there? Can I only claim identity within a culture when I've met some standard, and if so, what about the countless millions of us who can't?
                  As the kids say on FB: it's complicated...
                  David G
                  Harbor Woodworks
                  https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

                  "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

                  Comment

                  • Osborne Russell
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2006
                    • 27154

                    #10
                    Re: Cultural Appropriation

                    Originally posted by Keith Wilson
                    I think the entire idea of 'cultural appropriation' as something bad is almost 100% complete bullsh!t. Adopting good ideas thought up by other people is one major way that humanity gets better.

                    Perhaps I should stop eating sauerkraut, tacos, and General Tso's chicken.
                    Re-education camp for you.

                    Students Say College's General Tso's Chicken Recipe Is 'Cultural Appropriation'
                    Liberal arts students at Oberlin aren't happy with the food service's treatment of "traditional" Asian recipes

                    by Brenna Houck@EaterDetroit Dec 20, 2015

                    In another gastronomic error, one student found the General Tso's chicken was made with steamed chicken rather than fried and covered in a sauce that was "so weird that I didn't even try." The sushi, too, fell flat with a student who said "the undercooked rice and lack of fresh fish is disrespectful." College junior Tomoyo Joshi tells the paper, "When you're cooking a country's dish for other people, including ones who have never tried the original dish before, you're also representing the meaning of the dish as well as its culture." Adding, "So if people not from that heritage take food, modify it and serve it as ‘authentic,' it is appropriative."

                    "People not from that heritage . . ." GFY heritage boy 'tis you's the racist.
                    Do not speak of "our institutions" unless you make them yours by acting on their behalf.

                    Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny (2017)​

                    Comment

                    • Osborne Russell
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2006
                      • 27154

                      #11
                      Re: Cultural Appropriation

                      Originally posted by JimD
                      It's cultural appropriation if the originating culture considers the object in question to be owned and solely for use by them or with permission. We do this in our own culture in many ways, the difference being we do it for individuals and not the culture as a whole. This is why we have so many laws and rules regarding plagiarism, copyright, trademark, patents, and so on. We fully accept these rules as reasonable and legitimate when applied to our individuals but reject the same rationale when applied to other cultures. Our bad, and we should respectfully open our minds a bit and acknowledge that other cultures don't always do things quite the way we do. The West is an enterprise defined by novelty, assimilation, and consumption. It seems natural for us to take for ourselves whatever seems useful from other cultures. To some cultures this amounts to identity theft, which again we recognize as wrong when applied to indiduals but not when applied to cultures.
                      Cultural appropriation, you say it like it was something bad. No, we don't recognize cultures as having the same interests as individuals. That's because they're not individuals. In fact, we don't recognize cultures as having interests. Why should we? Who speaks for them, by what authority?
                      Do not speak of "our institutions" unless you make them yours by acting on their behalf.

                      Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny (2017)​

                      Comment

                      • Keith Wilson
                        Trying to be reasonable
                        • Oct 1999
                        • 64122

                        #12
                        Re: Cultural Appropriation

                        Lousy food is lousy food. 'Cultural appropriation' is almost always a positive good, if the thing being appropriated is worthwhile. Spreading around good ideas as a Good Thing.

                        Should we be upset if somebody in Guangzhou or Kuala Lumpur makes my mom's recipe for beef stroganoff?
                        Last edited by Keith Wilson; 01-30-2017, 12:20 PM.
                        "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
                        for nature cannot be fooled."

                        Richard Feynman

                        Comment

                        • Osborne Russell
                          Senior Member
                          • Mar 2006
                          • 27154

                          #13
                          Re: Cultural Appropriation

                          Originally posted by BrianY
                          The entire history of the humanity includes the appropriation, modification and incorporation of elements from different cultures - especially in the good old USA.

                          This is one of the things that makes me ashamed of my fellow liberals. Eyebrows?! Seriously?!
                          We had a lovely day at the art museum yesterday. About 5,000 years of tangible cultural appropriation. Tangible if they let you touch it, anyway. Go to the Museum Of Man and get another 10,000 or so.

                          These people are not liberals. Very important. The failure of liberals to disclaim them contributed greatly to the election of Trump.
                          Do not speak of "our institutions" unless you make them yours by acting on their behalf.

                          Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny (2017)​

                          Comment

                          • Peerie Maa
                            Old Grey Inquisitive One
                            • Oct 2008
                            • 62451

                            #14
                            Re: Cultural Appropriation

                            This I agree with, if you are going to offer a dish, learn how to cook it correctly.
                            Students at an ultra-liberal Ohio college are in an uproar over the fried chicken, sushi and Vietnamese sandwiches served in the school cafeterias, complaining the dishes are “insensitive” and “cul…

                            How would you like your burger served on a doughy undercooked bun?
                            It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

                            The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
                            The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

                            Comment

                            • BrianY
                              Left Wing Extremist
                              • Apr 2004
                              • 7942

                              #15
                              Re: Cultural Appropriation

                              Maybe someone should tell Yo Yo Ma that he shouldn't play Bach or Haydn or Mozart or any other Western composer's music.

                              Look, I'm fine with promoting sensitivity to the misuse of religious and other culturally important symbols. Nobody wants to have their religious stuff messed with and I get that. But the idea that every American white male (a.k.a "Public Enemy #1") should be vilified for using chopsticks to eat Chinese food (a.k.a that bastardization of culturally authentic Chinese regional cuisine that we Americans are insensitive enough to call "Chinese food" in a blatant case of cultural appropriation) or that white females who decide to let their eyebrows grow out are being culturally insensitive is just absurd. Stuff like this perpetuates a self-image of minorities as "victims" rather than as full members of society.

                              Now I'm going to eat my culturally-appropriate lunch. Since I am a middle aged white male (A.K.A. Public Enemy #1), my lunch will consist of an apple, a sandwich of egg salad on white bread and a stick of celery all washed down with a glass of cow's milk. I sincerely hope that my consumption of these foods will not offend anyone or convey an insensitivity towards other cultures. I had previously planned on eating some left over Thai curry and chicken satay but since I am not Thai, I did not want to appear insensitive. Instead, I threw that stuff out in the trash and I vowed to no longer patronize the Thai restaurant from whence it came. I hope that the place can stay in business serving only Thai customers.

                              ETA: I see that Dave Lesser posted a thread on the forum titled "The Music of Strangers" with a link to Yo Yo Ma and his Silk Road Ensemble - A.K.A " Yo Yo and His Merry Band of Cultural Appropriators" - performance. How horribly insensitive!!!!!!
                              Last edited by BrianY; 01-30-2017, 12:31 PM.
                              I rather be an American than a Republican.

                              Comment

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