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birlinn
01-29-2017, 12:33 PM
Boris and Theresa
BBC news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38789821

isla
01-29-2017, 12:41 PM
About bloody time too!

And a petition to stop him visiting the UK. I'm in for that..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38788388

Lew Barrett
01-29-2017, 01:32 PM
Rule Britannia! (Excepting those for whom 'Rule Britannia' are fighting words in Scotland, Wales or Ireland. Do I have that right?).

skuthorp
01-29-2017, 03:21 PM
I doubt Scotland would be a very welcoming place either Lew.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-29-2017, 03:25 PM
Rule Britannia! (Excepting those for whom 'Rule Britannia' are fighting words in Scotland, Wales or Ireland. Do I have that right?).

Ooof.-

I'm a native born Scot.

The lyrics for Rule Britannia were penned by a geezer who went to the same school as I did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Thomson_(poet,_born_1700)

Sky Blue
01-29-2017, 03:47 PM
I find it strange the public pressure the British people place on their politicians to publicly weigh in on the wholly domestic security policies of the US, hounding them, demanding a disavowal.

Certainly there is international outrage, but the Brits in particular demand a level of audit of their own pols as to this issue, and others, I've observed.

Why is this?

heimfried
01-29-2017, 04:20 PM
Also not impressed:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/donald-trump-muslim-ban-germany-angela-merkel-immigration-refugee-executive-order-a7551641.html
(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/donald-trump-muslim-ban-germany-angela-merkel-immigration-refugee-executive-order-a7551641.html)“The Geneva Refugee Convention requires the international community to take in refugees from war on humanitarian grounds. All signatory states are expected to do so. The Chancellor explained this policy to the US President in their call yesterday.
The German government will now examine what consequences the measure of the US government will have for German citizens with double citizenship and will represent their interests, if necessary, before our American partners.”

Peerie Maa
01-29-2017, 04:22 PM
I find it strange the public pressure the British people place on their politicians to publicly weigh in on the wholly domestic security policies of the US, hounding them, demanding a disavowal.

Certainly there is international outrage, but the Brits in particular demand a level of audit of their own pols as to this issue, and others, I've observed.

Why is this?

Because we have a representative democracy. One that represents the voting public, not the 1% and big industry.

See the difference?

Sky Blue
01-29-2017, 04:37 PM
Because we have a representative democracy. One that represents the voting public, not the 1% and big industry.

See the difference?

I'm not sure how that relates to the question I pose, Nick. What does the fact of this alleged "representative democracy" have to do with the public's hounding of their representatives to weigh in on the internal domestic politics of the US? It is vaguely Maoist and compulsory, quite frankly. The public essentially demands an affirmative distancing from objectionable policy, but that policy is not the policy of the British government, nor would it be supported by a majority of the people there.

Indeed, it appears unique to Britain. Certainly other international leaders are questioned about it, but not with the same aggressive leading questions, not with the hounding.

It's a British thing. What is it?

lupussonic
01-29-2017, 04:47 PM
I'm not sure how that relates to the question I pose, Nick. What does the fact of this alleged "representative democracy" have to do with the public's hounding of their representatives to weigh in on the internal domestic politics of the US? It is vaguely Maoist and compulsory, quite frankly. The public essentially demands an affirmative distancing from objectionable policy, but that policy is not the policy of the British government, nor would it be supported by a majority of the people there.

Indeed, it appears unique to Britain. Certainly other international leaders are questioned about it, but not with the same aggressive leading questions, not with the hounding.

It's a British thing. What is it?

Oh my god.

Ban me for calling you a moron. You have a perfect answer from Nick, and you are soooooo grandiloquent you can't even read it, understand it and resolve to full comprehension.

The domestic politics of the USA IS domestic policy of the UK, and every other country in the world.

ps. What does 'vaguely compulsory' mean in your world?

Sky Blue
01-29-2017, 05:08 PM
the domestic policy of the US is the domestic policy of every other country in the world

Uh, no

lupussonic
01-29-2017, 05:12 PM
Uh YES,

We went to war with the USA, destabilized the Middle East, and now have issues from the failed Arab Spring.

Please explain how Trumps banning of refugees will not affect Europe, and the UK?



You know Sky, you are clearly a wordsmith, but a REAL thinker? I mean an actual THINKER?

Uh, No.

PeterSibley
01-29-2017, 05:23 PM
Uh, no

http://www.immigrantspirit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/elephant-in-the-room.jpg

Peerie Maa
01-29-2017, 05:27 PM
Oh my god.

Ban me for calling you a moron. You have a perfect answer from Nick, and you are soooooo grandiloquent you can't even read it, understand it and resolve to full comprehension.

The domestic politics of the USA IS domestic policy of the UK, and every other country in the world.

ps. What does 'vaguely compulsory' mean in your world?

I think that the concept of a truly "representative" democracy is totally alien to Blueys understanding or experience, it just does not compute. Hence is difficulty in understanding plain English.

Sky Blue
01-29-2017, 05:29 PM
Uh YES,

We went to war with the USA, destabilized the Middle East, and now have issues from the failed Arab Spring.

Please explain how Trumps banning of refugees will not affect Europe, and the UK?



You know Sky, you are clearly a wordsmith, but a REAL thinker? I mean an actual THINKER?

Uh, No.

Other European leaders have publicly registered their opposition, but there isn't the feeding frenzy like there is in Britain. There's not the same intensity in Germany, nor OZ, for example.

And Lupussonic? If you want to talk to me, you need to do so civilly and without name calling or insult. I've not done that to you. Be respectful, and if you are unable, please don't engage with me.

PeterSibley
01-29-2017, 05:31 PM
There was no name calling there .

Sky Blue
01-29-2017, 05:41 PM
There was no name calling there .

There was, Peter, and so kindly please have an idea of what you're talking about before butting in. Thank you.

PeterSibley
01-29-2017, 06:20 PM
Uh YES,

We went to war with the USA, destabilized the Middle East, and now have issues from the failed Arab Spring.

Please explain how Trumps banning of refugees will not affect Europe, and the UK?



You know Sky, you are clearly a wordsmith, but a REAL thinker? I mean an actual THINKER?

Uh, No.

You mean Lup calling into question your ability to THINK, is name calling ? Really? You need to write your own ''Dictionary according to Sky Blue.''

Tom Montgomery
01-29-2017, 06:23 PM
He is glib. Look it up.

skuthorp
01-29-2017, 06:50 PM
That petition BTW, got enough signatures now to require the Brit parliament to have a formal debate on the subject. Interesting thing democracy eh SB?
But then with your 'leader' elected by 20%+, so I am informed, the term certainly does not compute. But I do admit that the 40%+ who do not vote are complicit by their absence.

lupussonic
01-29-2017, 07:16 PM
There was no name calling there .

No no, Sky is correct Peter, I DID call him a moron.
Actually, he's not a moron, but like more of a TWIT, because he's clearly intelligent, but he wastes himself, and does himself no favours.

Once again he has managed to deflect attention from an OP to himself. See? we are talking about him now....I really do not know why he has this (perhaps unconcious) obsessive behaviour. Perhaps his mummy didn't give him what we here can provide. Personally I think that is the case.

The thing is Sky, you are so incandescently irritating because you pontificate, nit pick, play devils advocate, obfuscate, and oppose everything that people are talking about...EVERY TIME. ..which implies that you are educated and thoughtful and have the capacity for cogent, linear, logical, and often complex thought...

...BUT

...you revel in opposition no matter the pont made, you commonly misread peoples posts, and come across to people as a high minded, concieted, entitled, superior, snobbish, over thinking, over caffeinated, much disliked, intellectually narrow, undeservedly authoritative, lonely TWIT. In other words, you fall short of your capabilities; you waste yourself.

Never once do you seem to ever, ever answer a direct question.. (by the way Sky, how is sueing Germany going? oh, and why do you think Mr Trump will make a good president of the USA?)... and then you go on your merry way, secure in the notion of your vast and all encompassing mind, your highly educated and correct state of intellect, your clearly superior all knowing vision, (whilst repeatedly quoting low grade, hack, tabloid media as your authoritative source I might add) and leaving a slew of irritation, indignation and resentment in your wake, and less and less friends. Who do you have as a friend here by the way? Denial Noise? Is he your friend? Hell of a meeting of minds there... You have posted numerous threads about the UK, but clearly know little about what it is to live here and be British. Sorry but a visit to Buckingham Palace and a pub in Ireland does not treally count my friend. And when you get called on it, you get snitty and defensive as usual. Round and round.

Sky, the only advice I have for you is to try to REALLY, actually THINK. Stop your internal dialogue of.... 'oh he's attacking me, I must defend myself with my high fallutin' verbage and pretense of politeness and manners'...that I know is going through your brain right now...You have no manners, you cut people down a with grammar and call it fair. Just STOP!! Take a breath, relax, and perhaps for the first time, throw your front-of-mind predictable defense to one side. STOP, and THINK. Get away from the Forum for a few weeks if you have to. You have hitherto shown no signs of anything approaching actual thought. All you do is display your command of words. Speaking and talking are really not the same thing. And when people call you on it, which they seem to do nearly every thread you post on, you claim, as you do here, that it is unjustified, impolite, un called for, and just not fair play damn-it. Again and again, round and round.
Seriously, up your game, or go sit at the kiddies table.


To get back to the OP....

Imagine dropping several millions of tonnes of ordinance on a relatively poor subsistance Middle Eastern country, any country will do....

-which has the knock on effect of destabilisation in that country,
-that causes refugees to flee in search of safety,
-and then they come knocking on the doors of those that dropped the bombs in the first place, along with their neighbours,
-and that affects domestic policy of those countries...


It is clear to see that the world is connected, the world is global, fast and and one action on one side of the world will almost instantly affect the state of play on the other.

And that foriegn policy of a nation affects the domestic policy of that and other nations. Policy appears to be leaky in fact, that both foriegn and domestic are blurred.

Another example; the recent leanings of DOMESTIC US steel policy as regards Chinese imports will affect Chinese DOMESTIC policy, as regards their steel manufacturing, right?

And given that, is it too far fetched an idea to think that DOMESTIC US policy on immigration, religion, abortion, mysogeny, etc will not affect DOMESTIC policies in nations around the world?

So why should anyone think it is non of the UK's business to NOT BE IMPRESSED with The USA's recent idiot in chief? We are all interdependent, what any one nation does affects all the other nations. Wake up to the new world order! It is absolutely the right, and priveledge of a foriegn nation to lobby (or prod, or vote, or write to, or pester) their government to effect change as regards its mandate towards other nations or their governments. The stronger this process is, the stronger the democratic process must be. If you are still not completely sure on this, go ask a Chinese or North Korean teacher if he or she has lobbied their government to take sanctions against a Trump visit to their country. Has it sunk in yet?

Let' see now, so far, in two weeks, he's p*ssed off the Chinese, Mexicans, Germans, British, Nato, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, The Far East (that's about 15 Nations folks), ALL Muslims, many Christians, most other religious groups, around 90% of women, around 80% of men, has shown zero thoughtfulness as regards the nuclear question (trust him with the button, really?) and set back the ultimate human goals of tolerance, understanding, evolution, development, safety, and peace back to the early 20th century, goals which after all, every man woman and child ultimately aspires to.

Good job USA!

Just remember some of us are standing underneath.

lupussonic
01-29-2017, 07:23 PM
Don't engage then, if it's too difficult for you.

At least try to understand what I wrote about the OP.

Captain Intrepid
01-29-2017, 07:31 PM
I find it strange the public pressure the British people place on their politicians to publicly weigh in on the wholly domestic security policies of the US, hounding them, demanding a disavowal.

Certainly there is international outrage, but the Brits in particular demand a level of audit of their own pols as to this issue, and others, I've observed.

Why is this?

Because when your friend is being a racist twit you tell him.

Wouldn't you want your friends to tell you if you were being a racist twit? Or would you be happier in racist twittering ignorance?

lupussonic
01-29-2017, 07:33 PM
My recommendation is that you read what I wrote, digest it, adjust your MO, take some time away, and come back anew, adjusted.

You won't probably, I get that.

And reply to what i wrote about the OP. Maybe I have made it clear for you?

bob winter
01-29-2017, 07:35 PM
It might be best if he doesn't come back but I doubt we will be that lucky.

lupussonic
01-29-2017, 08:54 PM
Clearly I have "lost my priveledge of engagement", another tactic when he's been slapped.

oznabrag
01-29-2017, 09:34 PM
That petition BTW, got enough signatures now to require the Brit parliament to have a formal debate on the subject. Interesting thing democracy eh SB?
But then with your 'leader' elected by 20%+, so I am informed, the term certainly does not compute. But I do admit that the 40%+ who do not vote are complicit by their absence.

OK.

Once again, it was 60% who did not vote.

isla
01-30-2017, 05:23 AM
The petition now has over 1,000,000 signatures.

skuthorp
01-30-2017, 05:32 AM
"...you revel in opposition no matter the pont made, you commonly misread peoples posts, and come across to people as a high minded, concieted, entitled, superior, snobbish, over thinking, over caffeinated, much disliked, intellectually narrow, undeservedly authoritative, lonely TWIT. In other words, you fall short of your capabilities; you waste yourself.

Never once do you seem to ever, ever answer a direct question.. (by the way Sky, how is sueing Germany going? oh, and why do you think Mr Trump will make a good president of the USA?)... and then you go on your merry way, secure in the notion of your vast and all encompassing mind, your highly educated and correct state of intellect, your clearly superior all knowing vision, (whilst repeatedly quoting low grade, hack, tabloid media as your authoritative source I might add) and leaving a slew of irritation, indignation and resentment in your wake, and less and less friends. Who do you have as a friend here by the way? Denial Noise? Is he your friend? Hell of a meeting of minds there... You have posted numerous threads about the UK, but clearly know little about what it is to live here and be British. Sorry but a visit to Buckingham Palace and a pub in Ireland does not treally count my friend. And when you get called on it, you get snitty and defensive as usual. Round and round."

Of course Lupussonic, he could be a politician. All the above applies...............:rolleyes:

Gerarddm
01-30-2017, 09:59 AM
The next massive airport demonstration will be Brits flooding the runway so his plane can't land. Hint, hint. ;-)

lupussonic
01-30-2017, 10:09 AM
It seems highly disturbing that the Queen should have to suffer Trump at a state visit, should that occur. Why she should be sullied with his presence is beyond me, but then she did recently give a state banquet to the Chinese contingency, whose record on everything from human rights to the environment has much to be desired.

John of Phoenix
01-30-2017, 10:20 AM
There was no name calling there .


...you revel in opposition no matter the pont made, you commonly misread peoples posts, and come across to people as a high minded, concieted, entitled, superior, snobbish, over thinking, over caffeinated, much disliked, intellectually narrow, undeservedly authoritative, lonely TWIT. In other words, you fall short of your capabilities; you waste yourself.

Never once do you seem to ever, ever answer a direct question.. (by the way Sky, how is sueing Germany going? oh, and why do you think Mr Trump will make a good president of the USA?)... and then you go on your merry way, secure in the notion of your vast and all encompassing mind, your highly educated and correct state of intellect, your clearly superior all knowing vision, (whilst repeatedly quoting low grade, hack, tabloid media as your authoritative source I might add) and leaving a slew of irritation, indignation and resentment in your wake, and less and less friends. Who do you have as a friend here by the way? Denial Noise? Is he your friend? Hell of a meeting of minds there... You have posted numerous threads about the UK, but clearly know little about what it is to live here and be British. Sorry but a visit to Buckingham Palace and a pub in Ireland does not treally count my friend. And when you get called on it, you get snitty and defensive as usual. Round and round."

Of course Lupussonic, he could be a politician. All the above applies...............:rolleyes:
I'm seeing a lot of trump in this guy lately - narcissistic, paranoid, grandiose. It's frikin' hilarious.

:D LMAO :D

Osborne Russell
01-30-2017, 10:30 AM
“The Geneva Refugee Convention requires the international community to take in refugees from war on humanitarian grounds.”

Not exactly. It's self-interest, not compassion. Like most international law it's aimed at preserving stability and avoiding armed conflict between states. Relief of suffering is charity, this is law.

By definition, by design, intentionally, not a matter of each state's individual policy.

Peerie Maa
01-30-2017, 10:36 AM
Not exactly. It's self-interest, not compassion. Like most international law it's aimed at preserving stability and avoiding armed conflict between states. Relief of suffering is charity, this is law.

By definition, by design, intentionally, not a matter of each state's individual policy.

I disagree. the law would not have been written nor ratified if states did not think it a good idea. It would be dead easy to simply say "Not our problem" and shut borders, but most (mature) states are able to include compassion in their thinking.

Osborne Russell
01-30-2017, 11:02 AM
I disagree. the law would not have been written nor ratified if states did not think it a good idea. It would be dead easy to simply say "Not our problem" and shut borders, but most (mature) states are able to include compassion in their thinking.

I think we agree. I'm not saying that self-interest and compassion are mutually exclusive. Obviously they're not. But there's a difference between an appeal to the conscience and an undertaking to be bound by law. "Don't steal" is a worthy principle. "Put me in jail if I steal" is law.

Politically, the import is that arguments about the worthiness of the principles are foreclosed by the existence of the convention, that having been the point.

Peerie Maa
01-30-2017, 11:06 AM
Politically, the import is that arguments about the worthiness of the principles are foreclosed by the existence of the convention, that having been the point.

No, the the importance of the principles are recognised and enforced by enshrining in law and ratifying it, not foreclosed in any way, unless you argue a different definition of "Foreclose"

Peerie Maa
01-30-2017, 11:18 AM
Loving it :D :D :D

After signatures from the UK, the next highest number of names came from the United States, more than 5,000 of the total. All but about 30,000 signatures were from the UK. From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38796357

Osborne Russell
01-30-2017, 11:45 AM
No, the the importance of the principles are recognised and enforced by enshrining in law and ratifying it, not foreclosed in any way, unless you argue a different definition of "Foreclose"

Yes, the importance of the principles are recognised and enforced by enshrining in law and ratifying it. Debate about them is foreclosed in politics unless the proposition is, the law should be changed.

outofthenorm
01-30-2017, 12:02 PM
It seems highly disturbing that the Queen should have to suffer Trump at a state visit, should that occur. Why she should be sullied with his presence is beyond me, but then she did recently give a state banquet to the Chinese contingency, whose record on everything from human rights to the environment has much to be desired.

The Queen is above all, polite. As you know, sophisticated Brits can handle foreign louts just fine.

isla
01-30-2017, 12:21 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M925KgbHHpwwjuLb6zQicgEKEs&w=182&h=206&c=8&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2 (https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=photo+of+queen+with+mugabe&id=4C46BEB87B1DE907DDB78C51F0BAACB7E07C8C55&FORM=IQFRBA)

Nice try SB. That photo was from his state visit in 1994 when he received a knighthood. But then in 2008..

Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe's honorary Knighthood has been annulled by the Queen.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7473243.stm

isla
01-30-2017, 12:26 PM
Meanwhile the petition now stands at 1,379,861. I watched it for a while and it's going up by about 500 per minute.

lupussonic
01-30-2017, 12:29 PM
Theresa May has said that she will never the less entertain Mr Trump with a state visit.

Better stock up on riot gear, it's going to get chewy.

Peerie Maa
01-30-2017, 12:35 PM
Theresa May has said that she will never the less entertain Mr Trump with a state visit.

Better stock up on riot gear, it's going to get chewy.

Any one know when, 2019?

isla
01-30-2017, 12:44 PM
Theresa May has said that she will never the less entertain Mr Trump with a state visit.

Better stock up on riot gear, it's going to get chewy.

I agree. If that petition keeps ramping up at the same rate for a week or more it could hit several million. If the the government choose to ignore it then I imagine there will be some serious $hit going down.

I just checked, it's gone up 12,000 since I posted #45. That's just over twenty minutes.

John of Phoenix
01-30-2017, 12:56 PM
Of course we all know that this will not sit well with the donald's yuuuge ego. I can't wait to see his comments on such a yuuuge insult.

birlinn
01-30-2017, 01:01 PM
Of course we all know that this will not sit well with the donald's yuuuge ego. I can't wait to see his comments on such a yuuuge insult.
The petition was rigged...
All those votes were illegals, true....

isla
01-30-2017, 01:06 PM
The petition was rigged...
All those votes were illegals, true....

Well I've only voted seven times so it wasn't me :d

John of Phoenix
01-30-2017, 01:07 PM
Could be... or a couple of cruise missiles launched at Big Ben. Just depends on what kind of day he's having.

Peerie Maa
01-30-2017, 01:12 PM
The petition was rigged...
All those votes were illegals, true....

Yes, of course it was. We even let Americans vote.

lupussonic
01-30-2017, 02:09 PM
I don't see why he should go. Millions of British citizens don't want him there, certain of the political leadership doesn't. I don't think he should dignify any of it, nor allow these anti-Democrats to put their politicians in such a tough spot merely for theatrics. He should do what Nieto of Mexico just did. Cancel it and make a phone call.

Still having difficulty comprehending democracy eh?

What does 'the special relationship' between the UK and USA mean to the USA? Not necessarily to you SKY, the USA.

We share a language (apart from Spanish), trade, and help each other go to war quite a bit. We have always punched above our weight in military exploits, often with the USA's support against common enemies. We are tech leaders, have similar legal overviews, are both capitalist societies, and aspire to much of the same goals. But that's not exclusive between the UK and the USA. What defines it exclusively?



Millions of British citizens don't want the Special Relationship unless they're happy with what one says or does, on issues having nothing to do with them or their country.

So if your US leader started an internal, domestic, comprehensive, systematic, extermination of a race, religious type, gender or sexual orientaion, just for example, which would have nothing to do with anyone else, the UK should still be friends in your head? The world is made up of nations that contain every race, creed, religious and sexually orientated people now. The days of one nation one people are gone forever, if indeed they ever existed at all, so please explain how you think nations live in isolation?

For the second time on this thread, try, just TRY to understand how one country's exploits affect another country, because, you know, we're all connected now.

Peerie Maa
01-30-2017, 02:14 PM
What does 'the special relationship' between the UK and USA mean to the USA? Not necessarily to you SKY, the USA.


When you consider WWII the "special relationship" was nothing more than an opportunity to make money out of us.

isla
01-30-2017, 02:16 PM
They're virtue-signaling Maoists with plummy English accents.

Except the liberals, socialists and conservatives with Welsh, Scottish and Ulster accents :D

oznabrag
01-30-2017, 02:25 PM
Except the liberals, socialists and conservatives with Welsh, Scottish and Ulster accents :D

Dear God, Isla!!!

Are you telling me y'all actually still have conservatives over there?

Some sort of creeping brain-worm has all but driven the American variety to extinction!

isla
01-30-2017, 02:29 PM
Dear God, Isla!!!

Are you telling me y'all actually still have conservatives over there?

Some sort of creeping brain-worm has all but driven the American variety to extinction!

Sadly the current administration is entirely made up of the buggers. You can't throw a Molotov cocktail without hitting a Tory these days :D

Peerie Maa
01-30-2017, 02:40 PM
Dear God, Isla!!!

Are you telling me y'all actually still have conservatives over there?

Some sort of creeping brain-worm has all but driven the American variety to extinction!

Yes Jim, but not as you know it. As rabid a Right Winger with a total absence of empathy as Maggy was, she was a moderate compared to some of your Rep's. Our current lot have some redeeming features. Hard to think of many, but some.

oznabrag
01-30-2017, 02:44 PM
Who's 'Jim'?

Peerie Maa
01-30-2017, 02:49 PM
Who's 'Jim'?

How quickly they forget.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCARADb9asE
Sad really

lupussonic
01-30-2017, 02:51 PM
Thats James.T. Kirk to you Jimmy.

Oh never mind.

lupussonic
01-30-2017, 02:53 PM
Sky,



So if your US leader started an internal, domestic, comprehensive, systematic, extermination of a race, religious type, gender or sexual orientaion, just for example, which would have nothing to do with anyone else, the UK should still be friends in your head? The world is made up of nations that contain every race, creed, religious and sexually orientated people now. The days of one nation one people are gone forever, if indeed they ever existed at all, so please explain how you think nations live in isolation?


?