Someone is going to have to explain this to me

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  • Norman Bernstein
    Liberaltarian
    • Nov 2004
    • 25217

    Someone is going to have to explain this to me

    As a nation, we venerate servicemen and service women, as well as veterans. We heap no limit of honor upon them... and rightly so. I can't think of any greater service, in terms of personal sacrifice... than volunteering to risk one's life in defense of the country.

    For some of us who have not served or are ineligible by virtue of age or other disqualification, millions of people serve their country in so many different ways. Some of us employ our talents to serve our communities.... Keith Wilson's 'Little Free Library' projects are an example of that. Still others find their own way to serve; my wife, for example, is a member of the local Rotary, and is a past President... and frequently engages in numerous activities that serve others, like the Thanksgiving dinners she organizes every year, for senior citizens.

    I don't serve as much as I should, but I try to be reasonably generous, in terms of contributions to organizations that serve the needs of people in this country... I have a big folder of receipts for contributions that I need to tabulate every year, at tax time.

    So why is it that people who would ordinarily endorse or approve of that kind of behavior, as being 'selfless' in support of the country, will completely reverse their attitudes about something like health care?

    There are a few people here who have couched their opposition, for example, to Obamacare, strictly in terms of their own selves... extending their complaint to some others who may have also seen a big increase in their health insurance premiums this past year. I'm willing to bet that many or all of them are, in ANY other context, also people who put others before self, when it comes to what they are willing to do for their country. Perhaps one or more of them are veterans, making them extraordinary... maybe they contribute generously... maybe they even volunteer their time and efforts on behalf of their community...

    ...but when it comes to help and aid for the tens of millions of people who are unable to access health care, suddenly, it's a different story.

    No matter what you think of Obamacare, surely the benefit of helping to provide health care to the millions who heretofore had little or none, is an act of support for the country as a whole.

    So, this is my dilemma: why would otherwise selfless and honorable people, when confronted with the idea of having to pay an increased tax, in order to help the lives of others, react so differently than their consciences would otherwise be: giving, and generous, and sympathetic? Why would someone who thought enough of his obligation to his country, to risk his life to serve in the military... then think it unreasonable that the country wouldn't attend to the needs of so many millions of others who need their help?

    I don't get it.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."






  • Norman Bernstein
    Liberaltarian
    • Nov 2004
    • 25217

    #2
    Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

    Originally posted by Coastwatcher
    You probably never will. People aren't against helping other people. Americans are a generous and giving people. Obamacare is a poorly constructed program. Most people think we can do better.
    ...but the alternatives promoted by the right wing are NOT better... they're worse... and repealing Obamacare without a replacement doesn't help people, it HURTS people.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."






    Comment

    • ccmanuals
      Son of a Guineaman
      • Dec 2001
      • 13318

      #3
      Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

      Originally posted by Coastwatcher
      You probably never will. People aren't against helping other people. Americans are a generous and giving people. Obamacare is a poorly constructed program. Most people think we can do better.
      Congressional republicans had 8 years to come up with a replacement that could have been better.

      Sure, better is a great goal, but realistically, are the same folks who are only interested in eliminating what currently exists with something that is non existent capable of coming up with something better? Again, they had 8 years.
      Tom

      "Leave the gun, take the cannolis"

      Comment

      • David G
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2003
        • 89764

        #4
        Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

        Originally posted by Coastwatcher
        You probably never will. People aren't against helping other people. Americans are a generous and giving people. Obamacare is a poorly constructed program. Most people think we can do better.
        I agree. It is a flawed program. Of course - it is a bit better in several ways than what we had before. But we CAN do better.

        What does better look like for you?
        David G
        Harbor Woodworks
        https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

        "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

        Comment

        • Too Little Time
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2014
          • 12740

          #5
          Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

          Originally posted by Norman Bernstein
          I don't serve as much as I should, but I try to be reasonably generous, in terms of contributions to organizations that serve the needs of people in this country... I have a big folder of receipts for contributions that I need to tabulate every year, at tax time.

          So why is it that people who would ordinarily endorse or approve of that kind of behavior, as being 'selfless' in support of the country, will completely reverse their attitudes about something like health care?

          I don't get it.
          I applaud you for your generosity, but charity is different from government edicts. I think many others object to the edicts as I do. I have explained why I am against the ACA. I most likely will be against the Republican plan when it is known.

          But if the issue concerns you to the extent it appears to, you might get rid of that big folder of receipts mentality. Just make a single large meaningful donation each year to a group that provides health care.
          Life is complex.

          Comment

          • outofthenorm
            Old dog with new tricks
            • Mar 2005
            • 2908

            #6
            Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

            I don't usually get involved in these discussions, but it seems that your question is asked in good faith, so here goes.

            Norman, I suspect that the answer is a simple one, rooted in the idea of free will and latent individualism. None of us likes to be told what to do. Most of us would rather do a thing because we choose to do it. We resist doing things when we are commanded to do so. Sharing makes us feel good. Being compelled to share makes us resentful, even if we are generous by nature. It's not very reasonable or rational, but it's very human.

            Norm

            Comment

            • switters
              S/V Pi
              • Oct 2007
              • 8883

              #7
              Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

              Sounds like you have someone specific in mind, just call them out. Veterans have different views, they do not share a hive mind.
              Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.
              TOM ROBBINS, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues


              Comment

              • Anthony Zucker
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2003
                • 741

                #8
                Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

                To little time and outofthenorm;

                The problem with your response is that volunteer donations are very insufficient. They also cant coordinate with each other. That's why a government program works better. Examples of that are having one military for the country, coordination on roads, a national currency, etc.

                As I assume you know, Obamacare was a copy of Romneycare in Mass which was hatched by a conservative think tank in DC, the Heritage Foundation. That was an effort to counter Sen. Ted Kennedy's attempt to copy the scandinavian health plans which are single payer and work so much better than anything we've thought up. Their plans are much less expensive and more functional than what we have.

                On a personal note I've always wondered where in Christian theology is it written that every effort should be made to stop any attempts to care for the needy. Jesus seemed to preach that those in need should be helped, Good Samaritan and all that.

                Which brings me to what Socialists have always said; "Socialism is basically forced Christianity and that is why they hate us".

                Comment

                • Norman Bernstein
                  Liberaltarian
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 25217

                  #9
                  Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

                  Originally posted by outofthenorm
                  Norman, I suspect that the answer is a simple one, rooted in the idea of free will and latent individualism. None of us likes to be told what to do. Most of us would rather do a thing because we choose to do it. We resist doing things when we are commanded to do so. Sharing makes us feel good. Being compelled to share makes us resentful, even if we are generous by nature. It's not very reasonable or rational, but it's very human.
                  Norm, you've given me a very good answer, which is greatly appreciated... and I believe you're absolutely right.

                  While your answer is right, isn't it rooted in cognitive dissonance? I'm sure that, somewhere out there, is a veteran who cheats on his taxes. His individual, voluntary selflessness, would be contradicted by a measure of selfishness (especially considering that his tax dollars were what supported him, as a soldier). A case of the nobility, and ignobility, in the very same person.

                  Maybe this is a philosophical question without a good answer, but shouldn't it be the case that whether something is autonomous and spontaneous, like serving in the military or making a charitable contribution, be every bit as noble, AND as satisfying, and doing a public service by being willing to pay taxes for the benefit of society as a whole?

                  I don't 'like' to pay taxes, and I do take whatever deductions are legally allowed... but I don't begrudge their need... and if they should be raised in order for the nation to provide a badly needed benefit, I would agree and comply.
                  "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."






                  Comment

                  • Paul G.
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2006
                    • 2314

                    #10
                    Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

                    It's a scandal that you dont have a public healthcare, you the richest nation on the face of the earth!! If tiny little NZ has it with a fraction of the tax base, the resources, the massive corporates generating huge wealth..... I personally find it strange that people dont DEMAND it as basic human right.

                    Its kind of like how the US meme of how much we love our moms, (until we have to give them maternity leave, family planning, support them if they are single etc etc etc) In other words hiding behind how much they care- they really don't. As far as health care goes, the ideal of paying your own way aligns with the US psyche of rugged individualism and capitalism, which is all fine if people can afford it and if the medical world actually had to compete on a level playing field. But they dont, and in Trumps words, the system is rigged against the common man by big pharma, big insurance, big hospital and sadly big government who is in the pocket of all of the former.
                    polite and appropriate

                    Comment

                    • outofthenorm
                      Old dog with new tricks
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 2908

                      #11
                      Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

                      My answer above shouldn't be seen as an approval or excusing of the dissonance you point out. It's an answer to the "why is it so" question, not the "should it be so" question. I think that we would agree that altruism, or at least doing your duty, is a sound policy that leads to the most good. I live in Ontario, where we have all paid a percentage of our incomes into a universal health care system for a long time. As a youth, I objected to the automatic withholding of my contributions. As an aging adult with health issues, I'm awfully glad that I paid my share.

                      Comment

                      • Norman Bernstein
                        Liberaltarian
                        • Nov 2004
                        • 25217

                        #12
                        Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

                        Originally posted by outofthenorm
                        My answer above shouldn't be seen as an approval or excusing of the dissonance you point out. It's an answer to the "why is it so" question, not the "should it be so" question. I live in Ontario, where we have all paid a percentage of our incomes into a universal health care system for a long time. As a youth, I objected to the automatic withholding of my contributions. As an aging adult with health issues, I'm awfully glad that I paid my share.
                        *sigh* You've certainly nailed the problem. I suspect there are VERY few Obamacare opponents who have significant and expensive medical problems.... and many who are still young, feeling immortal, and incapable of recognizing that one day, they too will be old and sick and need that care.

                        It's why I have always believed (and to others, sound like a broken record) when I say that health care is a life-cycle phenomenon, one that demands that we all, young, old, healthy, or sick, pay into a system which flattens the cost curve over our life spans, so we get the care we need, WHEN we need it.

                        Thank you for your comments.
                        "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."






                        Comment

                        • outofthenorm
                          Old dog with new tricks
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 2908

                          #13
                          Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

                          Originally posted by Anthony Zucker
                          To little time and outofthenorm;

                          The problem with your response is that volunteer donations are very insufficient. .
                          With respect, the "problem" you point out is not related to the question of "why is it so?". It's related to the question of "Should it be so"? An undeniable fact is that volunteerism rarely gets the big jobs done. Health care is one of the biggest and most expensive problems any modern society faces. It needs big money to function and constant improvement to function well. I believe that universality should be the goal, both on the paying and receiving sides.

                          Comment

                          • Cuyahoga Chuck
                            # 7727
                            • Dec 2003
                            • 12984

                            #14
                            Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

                            Originally posted by Coastwatcher
                            You probably never will. People aren't against helping other people. Americans are a generous and giving people. Obamacare is a poorly constructed program. Most people think we can do better.
                            Long ago when Obamacare was nearing a vote the Repubs were screaming that they needed more time to read it because it was 1100 pages long. Can all 1100 pages be so flawed that the only answer is immediate abandonment?
                            It certainly looks like they are mostly anxious to erase something beneficial because it has Obama's name on it. A name by the way the Repubs concocted as a perjorative.
                            It should also be said that Obamacare is basically a program invented at the American Enterprise Institute . A very famous Right-wing think tank. It's entirely possible to burnish it up with legislative changes that wouldn't endanger the health care of 20 million citizens.
                            Last edited by Cuyahoga Chuck; 01-26-2017, 02:01 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Too Little Time
                              Senior Member
                              • Feb 2014
                              • 12740

                              #15
                              Re: Someone is going to have to explain this to me

                              Originally posted by Anthony Zucker
                              To little time and outofthenorm;

                              The problem with your response is that volunteer donations are very insufficient. They also cant coordinate with each other. That's why a government program works better. Examples of that are having one military for the country, coordination on roads, a national currency, etc.
                              Prior to the ACA. The federal government paid providers of uncompensated medical care. In essence, the government contributed to charities. $30 or $60 billion per year. In addition, speciality hospitals like St. Jude and a Children's Cancer Hospital in Georgia did well in getting donations. Charities may not provide the most efficient health care, but some did have health care providing in their not-for-profit applications.

                              But my comment was not intended to solve the health care problem, but rather to indicate that one could help solve the problem rather than sit, complain, and wait for the government to.

                              Originally posted by Paul G.
                              It's a scandal that you dont have a public healthcare, you the richest nation on the face of the earth!! If tiny little NZ has it with a fraction of the tax base, the resources, the massive corporates generating huge wealth..... I personally find it strange that people dont DEMAND it as basic human right.
                              While a lot of people want to "solve" the problem of health care, I don't think many want to pay for it. There are a lot of people here in the top 10% and I am one of the few who suggest that the poor should get free health care. I think that most want a program that gives them a better deal than they are currently getting. I cannot even get people to say how they would want health care paid for.

                              Currently the US has FICA taxes (Social Security and what not) that are applied at a fixed percentage to everyone starting with the first dollar of income. That just seems so unfair for those at the bottom of the economic scale. The ACA is not quite that bad, but still those below but near the median may need to pay about 10% of their income for insurance premiums. A single payer plan could be an additional FICA type of tax where the poor are required to pay for insurance rather than get health care as a right. I am against that.
                              Life is complex.

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