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View Full Version : 1948 Stephens "What in the heck is going on here???"



leop
01-17-2017, 06:08 PM
Hi Everyone,

I am getting ready to pull my boat for repairs and paint. I have rust streaks running down from the original galvanized screws that she was fastened with.

What's strange is that the Port side looks as you would expect, each screw has a stain.

However the Starboard side has me puzzled. The rust streaks appear to come from the calking. They are like long rust waterfalls emerging from between planks and the pour down her topsides. As if the boat was caulked with steel wool. Has anyone seen this before?


The boat is covered so no rain hits her, just the occasional wash down.

All rust stains just appeared in the last year as if overnight? Bonding or electrolysis issue?

What do I need to do to repair all this. Re- is my last resort this year. How to asses if the fasteners will hold a few more seasons? Go to treat the rust, patch the plugs and paint to protect them from further damage?


PORT SIDE WITH "NORMAL" Rust stains. Ignore damage to gunnel for now.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15614388729_c3d782592f_c.jpg


STARBOARD SIDE with the Abnormal rust waterfalls
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3420/13072290263_33aafdc955_c.jpg

Garret
01-17-2017, 06:16 PM
While I can't speak to the new & different streaking - though it could be loosened planks that are letting water run down behind them, covering rust does nothing to slow it down & it will appear through new paint in a few months (few as in 2-3). In fact, encapsulating the rust could even speed it up. DAMHIKT

There is only one solution I know of for getting rid of the problem & I don't think you want to hear it. Sorry!

nedL
01-17-2017, 06:19 PM
Sometimes differences in what is happening to one side vs the other can have to do with weather exposure. When in her slip is one side sunny and the other always in shade? .....Just one thing to start thinking about.

wizbang 13
01-17-2017, 06:20 PM
Without pictures, I have to guess she was caulked with steel wool.

Cogeniac
01-17-2017, 10:30 PM
I suspect the fasteners are mostly rusting, and the ones on the seaboard side are somehow more protected. I assume your boat is still at Napa, and in the slip facing North, so the port side gets regular wind and rain and some afternoon sun. (IIRC she was close in on the south side of one of the sheds, right?), while the starboard side is somewhat protected. I'd bet that the seam staining is due to the fact that the seams always crack, and the plugs on the starboard side are probably less weathered. We have had a ton of rain recently in the north bay, and so the humidity has been a lot higher, and I suspect even under cover she has gotten some wetness, that has cause more rusting...so that may have something to do with he apparent change in recent months.

I'd strongly suggest when you haul her that you pull a selection of fasteners, and see how bad they are. Refastening is a major job, plus the cost of 5K bronze screws, but that's probably a job not too far off in the future.

Other that this little distraction, how is the restoration coming along?

S

leop
01-18-2017, 01:07 AM
Okay I add the pictures properly this time. Looking at some old pictures I can see the rust has been this way (starboard versus Port) for some time, It's just worst now and getting my attention.

leop
01-18-2017, 01:08 AM
Without pictures, I have to guess she was caulked with steel wool.

Okay I add the pictures.

leop
01-18-2017, 02:22 AM
Hi there! Nice to hear from you.

The side with "normal" rust stains is "To weather" and the other side is in the Lee of the the boat in the adjacent slip. But looking back I see the same pattern in old pictures and at the time they were taken she was the other way around so I don't think it's exposure that's causing the difference; though it's plausible I guess.

Yes refastening is inevitable - I know that. What's stopping me is that I really don't want to leave the old fasteners in her, and 100% of their heads sheer off whey you try to remove them. The rust expands the screw and that effectively locks the screw into the wood as if the tree grew around it. Were it not for the weakening of the screw I would take comfort in the holding power of the rust to assure that a plank would never be sprung due to a fastener backing out! I have put tones of effort into developing an EDM solution, and a special cutter bit to get them out, but I need at least another year to perfect either one and with her engines getting close to done I wanted to be on the water at least a little before tearing her down for a refastening. Hence the idea to address the rust stains short term, get out on the water for one season and have some fun, and then with renewed energy tackle the re-fastening next winter.

The restoration continues though at a slow rate. I got sick for most of last year and for the last five years I have been learning how to be a dad, which appears to mostly be about going to a never ending stream of birthday parties.

I did get two new engines for her and those are rebuilt by me and running (naturally aspirated 6-71 diesels) well and looking brand new. However I was having second thoughts about her only getting 200hp a side because I didn't think it would get her up on a plane. The engines have enough torque to spin a massive prop, but there isn't room for a massive prop.

I am pretty sure she originally came with two Chrysler 318s but if I was going to convert back to gas it would have to be for something better than two ancient conventional engines. There are plenty of 600hp diesel options are out there, but 50K per engine for a 1000 hr engine seamed like a major rip-off so I gave up on that path; though the idea still occasionally rears it's head.

I eventually settled on two or three V12s. I have acquired one Meteor V12 and am almost done getting a second and possible a third buttoned up. The Meteor was the non-supercharged version of the Rolls Royce Merlin of WWII fame. It was allowed looser tolerances than the airplane version, did not have a super charger, and was used in tanks which are easier to deal with when you have an engine failure :) It runs on regular 86 octane fuel. They are 27 liters motors, but are still much lighter than the 6-71s. I am going to run them at around 650 hp each. That power level is a major de-rating over the design limit which was 1,000+ in the spitfire so they should last a long time. I wanted Packard versions so I could keep her all American, but Packard only made the airplane version and all the P51's have gobbled those up years ago and spread them over the desert outside of Reno, so alas all three are from Rolls Royce. They sound great when they start up; it should basically sound like three P51's wrapped in Mahogany.

I figured if I am going to put so much work and money into this boat that I needed to make her something special and while the 6-71s were the safe pick they were nothing to write home about. Three V12 Merlin engines though definitely catch your attention. Even one is too loud for me so my only hope is to outrun as much of the sound as I can or put a Brigs & Stratton engine inline with the center engines shaft for normal cruising |;)

Most of my time has been spent designing and building stainless steel exhaust manifolds, adapting raw water pumps, ect. The normal marinization stuff. The engine I have came up running and fine but as soon as I am done testing the marinization equipment I built I'll tear it down and check clearances and see to anything that needs fixing inside. It has been a lot of work, but thank God the engine R&D is almost done.

Of course if you put almost 2000 hp into a 60+ year old boat then everything needs to be up to snuff and hence the fastening issue. Most of the other repairs are straight forward and two Naval architects have signed off on the power level but the re-fastening remains a headache.

So now you know the rest of the story!

Leo

wizbang 13
01-18-2017, 03:38 AM
Have you used Ospho? One could spray /brush//roll it on . At least the boat would look un rusty and it may slow down the flow.

Hill160881
01-18-2017, 06:43 AM
Lovely another big power boat. I hope you are in for a long term restoration. At that age it will need re-fastened. No doubt with that streaking. When you haul her out, assuming you can get someone to haul it, you will want to try and use a facility with ways not lifts. At this age and unknown structural integrity straps would be risky. It will need extra support to avoid any shifting or movement as she comes out. Seen many big wooden boats fall apart when hauled out.

Have you got insurance? If not I can help you get it without a haul out! ;) You will have to commit to a haul out the first 6 months with a survey and with a fastener inspection. Contact hagerty and tell them this. You need insurance to slip it pending haul out for hull work. You will need pictures of every inch of the hull. Be selective and use lighting and and glare to your advantage. They will issue it through another company, Markel I think it was.

Do you have any history of service?

Is she diesel or gas? Edit just saw the new post. Diesel

Dry, wet or flowing bilge?

I am in Stockton where she may have been built and know many old timers who built those boats. They are very nice when in Bristol fashion.

The engines you want are pointless in a old wooden boat. These boats are not ski boats and driving them around on plane will kill it quick. Also the fuel burn makes it pointless. You will spend more time at the yard replacing planks and chines than you will on the water. Even old 6-71s will shake that old boat apart. Vibration is the enemy with a hard mounted engine in an old wooden boat. You will need 2" shafts, new logs, you will need to rebed the struts with metal backing......... those engines are the worst idea ever. Put simply the framing and structure were not designed for 1200 hp and both are not something you can change.

Also without the coast guard approval nothing you custom make in the engine room will be legal. NOTHING! Thus it won't pass a survey and won't be legal on the water. Trust me when I say that after many many monies spent and even if you get it all working you will still be to risky To be allowed. Seen two boats explode in the last three years with non marine components. Do they make a marine starter for those aircraft engines? What about ignition components? A marine fuel pump? How about the carberators? You can't marine-ize these components. They are either available in a marine grade or they are not it's one way or the other. You don't have the money to get random parts approved.

A 55' Chris craft with 671s does 18 knots. They would do 22 knots if properly proped in your boat and thats as fast as it should ever go if you don't want it to sink

also the 6-71 is rated from 175hp up to over 300hp in the marine format. Why not just upgrade them?

nedL
01-18-2017, 12:56 PM
Now, Looking at the extreme level of the rust, and the evenness of it, is there any possibility that at some point steel wool was used for 'sanding' between coats of paint? Steel wool has no place on a boat and can lead to all sorts of rust bleeding problems if used in the finishing processes (as on furniture).

A pair of Merlins (Meteors)???? Wow!! That would be something to see! (Admittedly I have to somewhat agree, that would be putting some pretty rare engines in a wooden boat, .. but that's your decision and I would have nothing against it.) I'm not sure what the concern about 'USCG approval' is. They have no input on manifolds, cooling pumps, etc. I believe their interests would lay in the electricals (starter, alternator, distributor (maybe)) and the flame arrestor on the carburetor. Certainly there are Merlin V12's in vintage mahogany speed boats and race boats that pass pretty darn close inspection, so it can be done.

Looking forward to seeing your progress!

Hill160881
01-18-2017, 01:18 PM
The concern is if the CG does a site inspection you will get fined for non approved custom work in an inboard application. Been there paid the fine, had to get towed in with them watching........

I know nothing about these engines. Are they air cooled like most air craft engines of the time? I would love to see it done as well but I just want him to know what he is up against. I looked into putting 700hp 572s in my boat and after much research found out they require a lot. Basically you need to glass the bottom. Reinforce the stringers with steel framing..... lots needs to be done for the hull and framing to hold those speeds and power long term.

My 50' CC is in good condition and still does 18 knots with the original power plants. Originally powered with 275hp 430s. I went with a remaned 496s with 380 hp and 430 torque and I still have to de-tune the power up top to avoid damage to the old struts and logs.

Again I hope to see it running and cursing down the waterway one day so I am not against you. I am just being the realistic voice.

nedL
01-18-2017, 04:09 PM
I think this is pretty much what is being discussed. V12, water cooled, lots of torque, and quite frankly low RPM.

https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.com/5ca7aa25-f015-42bc-8d7a-a41a00bd26da/68eccbd1-0daa-4d26-b805-a5d200ee1b2c/540x360.jpg

They (or very similar) were common in unlimited hydroplanes "back in the day". Unlike a typical marine engine with reduction gear, these engines had gear boxes that geared the prop shaft speed way up above the crank shaft speed. If my memory is at all close, think like 2300 RPM wide open maybe.

The Merlin engines were the mainstay in boats like this for years

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/33/d5/9a/33d59af40b15d4fa4a7e5384a038b7cf.jpg


Packard made a very similar engine that was used in a lot of Pt boats. Here is one running at Mystic Seaport in CT


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC8tD21z0Qc

MoePorter
01-18-2017, 04:36 PM
those engines are the worst idea ever. Put simply the framing and structure were not designed for 1200 hp and both are not something you can change.

Sadly, I can't argue with that statement. That said if a '48 Stephens was rebuilt to the point it could take 2 (or 3!) Merlins & not self destruct - wow...that would be great to see & wonder about the cost of the transformation (& fuel dock bill). It would be like a 289 in a MGTD...somewhere between a desecration & totally rad... You sound like a serious gearhead - but not a very savy old wooden boat guy so I can't encourage your plan unless you show more understanding about the structural limitations of your boat when new and as she sits. Good luck. Moe

Garret
01-18-2017, 04:56 PM
Sadly, I can't argue with that statement. That said if a '48 Stephens was rebuilt to the point it could take 2 (or 3!) Merlins & not self destruct - wow...that would be great to see & wonder about the cost of the transformation (& fuel dock bill). It would be like a 289 in a MGTD...somewhere between a desecration & totally rad... You sound like a serious gearhead - but not a very savy old wooden boat guy so I can't encourage your plan unless you show more understanding about the structural limitations of your boat when new and as she sits. Good luck. Moe

Good comparison - though 3 Merlins would be more like a blown 427 in a TD...

leop
01-20-2017, 01:41 AM
Lovely another big power boat. I hope you are in for a long term restoration. At that age it will need re-fastened. No doubt with that streaking. When you haul her out, assuming you can get someone to haul it, you will want to try and use a facility with ways not lifts. At this age and unknown structural integrity straps would be risky. It will need extra support to avoid any shifting or movement as she comes out. Seen many big wooden boats fall apart when hauled out.

Have you got insurance? If not I can help you get it without a haul out! ;) You will have to commit to a haul out the first 6 months with a survey and with a fastener inspection. Contact hagerty and tell them this. You need insurance to slip it pending haul out for hull work. You will need pictures of every inch of the hull. Be selective and use lighting and and glare to your advantage. They will issue it through another company, Markel I think it was.

Do you have any history of service?

Is she diesel or gas? Edit just saw the new post. Diesel

Dry, wet or flowing bilge?

I am in Stockton where she may have been built and know many old timers who built those boats. They are very nice when in Bristol fashion.

The engines you want are pointless in a old wooden boat. These boats are not ski boats and driving them around on plane will kill it quick. Also the fuel burn makes it pointless. You will spend more time at the yard replacing planks and chines than you will on the water. Even old 6-71s will shake that old boat apart. Vibration is the enemy with a hard mounted engine in an old wooden boat. You will need 2" shafts, new logs, you will need to rebed the struts with metal backing......... those engines are the worst idea ever. Put simply the framing and structure were not designed for 1200 hp and both are not something you can change.

Also without the coast guard approval nothing you custom make in the engine room will be legal. NOTHING! Thus it won't pass a survey and won't be legal on the water. Trust me when I say that after many many monies spent and even if you get it all working you will still be to risky To be allowed. Seen two boats explode in the last three years with non marine components. Do they make a marine starter for those aircraft engines? What about ignition components? A marine fuel pump? How about the carberators? You can't marine-ize these components. They are either available in a marine grade or they are not it's one way or the other. You don't have the money to get random parts approved.

A 55' Chris craft with 671s does 18 knots. They would do 22 knots if properly proped in your boat and thats as fast as it should ever go if you don't want it to sink

also the 6-71 is rated from 175hp up to over 300hp in the marine format. Why not just upgrade them?


Hi Mr. Hill160811,

I would love to hear of any help you can provide with a haul out. The more help the better!

Most of your questions are answered in the boat's main restoration thread "1948 Stephens restoration". Please check it out and feel free to comment.

Boats built after 1940 and before 1948 that are powered by gas are only required by law to have back fire flashback control, and proper ventilation to the engine room. Everything else you mention is only required on newer boats, though they are good ideas and should be added to older boats. I have added several, though not all of them.

Actually the 6-71 has variations going all the way up to 480hp. Unfortunately I have blocks from around 1944. These engines are rated at 220hp each in combat mode and 200 for non-combat mode. With the two valve heads and short blocks it would be pushing them to get 300hp and even then I would need a turbo, bigger injectors, probably the new heads, ........ It just turns out to not be worth it.

She already has 2 inch shafts because her original engines were much larger than the tiny 4-53's in her now. Same with engine beds and the other upgrades you mentioned.

Thanks for participating, and let me know about that help having her hauled.

Sincerely,

Leo

leop
01-20-2017, 01:49 AM
The concern is if the CG does a site inspection you will get fined for non approved custom work in an inboard application. Been there paid the fine, had to get towed in with them watching........

I know nothing about these engines. Are they air cooled like most air craft engines of the time? I would love to see it done as well but I just want him to know what he is up against. I looked into putting 700hp 572s in my boat and after much research found out they require a lot. Basically you need to glass the bottom. Reinforce the stringers with steel framing..... lots needs to be done for the hull and framing to hold those speeds and power long term.

My 50' CC is in good condition and still does 18 knots with the original power plants. Originally powered with 275hp 430s. I went with a remaned 496s with 380 hp and 430 torque and I still have to de-tune the power up top to avoid damage to the old struts and logs.

Again I hope to see it running and cursing down the waterway one day so I am not against you. I am just being the realistic voice.

Wow, I am shocked the CG forced you to get towed in. What year was the boat, and what was it that they didn't like. I am very familiar with the law regarding their authority to do such a thing. The conditions that allow them to force you in are very restrictive.

The engines were used in the P51, spitfire and a few others, as well as PT boats. After they war they were very cheap as surplus and lots of luxury yachts and crazy racers used them. They are water cooled. Thank you for being realistic. Yes, adding them is a lot of work. The alternative though is a boat not worth restoring - financially speaking. So it's either this plan, something similar, or burn her.

Thanks for participating and sharing.

Sincerely,

Leo

leop
01-20-2017, 01:54 AM
I think this is pretty much what is being discussed. V12, water cooled, lots of torque, and quite frankly low RPM.

https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.com/5ca7aa25-f015-42bc-8d7a-a41a00bd26da/68eccbd1-0daa-4d26-b805-a5d200ee1b2c/540x360.jpg

They (or very similar) were common in unlimited hydroplanes "back in the day". Unlike a typical marine engine with reduction gear, these engines had gear boxes that geared the prop shaft speed way up above the crank shaft speed. If my memory is at all close, think like 2300 RPM wide open maybe.

The Merlin engines were the mainstay in boats like this for years

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/33/d5/9a/33d59af40b15d4fa4a7e5384a038b7cf.jpg


Packard made a very similar engine that was used in a lot of Pt boats. Here is one running at Mystic Seaport in CT


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC8tD21z0Qc

Yes the green one is the engine being discussed. Miss Budweiser is running a true Merlin. The major differences are that the Merlin had tighter tolerances, a super charger, and more delicate parts that were lighter. They made around 1800 hp. The meteor ran much lower RPMs, had looser tolerances, no supercharger, lower compression, runs on low octane gas. They made around 650 hp.

leop
01-20-2017, 02:24 AM
Sadly, I can't argue with that statement. That said if a '48 Stephens was rebuilt to the point it could take 2 (or 3!) Merlins & not self destruct - wow...that would be great to see & wonder about the cost of the transformation (& fuel dock bill). It would be like a 289 in a MGTD...somewhere between a desecration & totally rad... You sound like a serious gearhead - but not a very savy old wooden boat guy so I can't encourage your plan unless you show more understanding about the structural limitations of your boat when new and as she sits. Good luck. Moe

Yes, on the surface the idea sounds horrible I agree. But look deeper and you will see my logic.

The popularity of wooden boats is growing, but the number of people purchasing them, maintaining them, and restoring them is going down. The reason is that they are expensive and the older they get, the more expensive they are to keep up. They are the reason the phrase "A labor of love" was coined I think!

This boat's hull is in really good shape. Everything else is shot though due to a prior sinking. By the time she was restored using modern marine engines I would be into her at least $100K, one divorce, and only God knows what else. At the end of the restoration I would have a nice boat that would be equivalent to Mr. Hill60880's Chris Craft. The boat would be worth about $60k a bit less than what the engines cost; and that's only if I could find a crazy person (like all of us) to purchase her. A person looking at a boat in this price range would be worried about the wood, but take a little bit of comfort in the new engines. Middle to upper Middle class.

With two Merlins in her I would be into her about the same amount, but with much less spent on the engines and thier install. However, I would ask a lot more for her when she was to be sold and the listing would stand out. The survey would say the same thing you guys say - Old Boat, Old wood, Way overpowered. But the kind of buyer interested in her would have a lot of money to spend and he/she would be looking to be "different". The first time she/he heard two Merlins start-up and imagined himself at Sam's with every eyeball on his boat wondering why she was so F%^&ing loud he would be hooked. This is the same guy that drives a 600hp Ferrari to work every day in 5mph traffic. He aint driving it because he needs 600hp in 5mph traffic! He is driving it because he has a need "to be seen" and admired or thought to be crazy.

For my part I am content to her up and run only one engine at a time at 400 hp and 22 knots. I will also feel better knowing that after I pass on that my kids might get some of the $100K + that I spent on her back as opposed to having the headache of off-loading an old wooden boat for maybe $60K by then.

As for structure she was ordered custom built by the owner to be fast. He was a friend of the Stephens family and they made some "unusual" accommodations for him; which is probably the only reason she is still around today. Yes she is old, yes that is a lot of power, but my naval architect and I think we have a plan to make them work when restraint with the throttles is practiced.

There is a line at airshows to see the $3 Million dollar P51's up close. There is a much shorter line to see the DC3's. That's why it's not as bad an idea as it might first appear to be. At least that's my thinking. I may be wrong.

Thanks for the input.

Sincerely,

Leo

leop
01-20-2017, 02:28 AM
Hi Everyone,

My choice of engines had generated lots of activity and that's okay because that's one of the reasons I picked them. I am wondering though if anyone has any further ideas about the strange rust stains on the Starboard side. Steel wool is a good guess. Any others???

MN Dave
01-20-2017, 03:53 AM
I have to agree that it looks like the effect of weather exposure. The side that stays wet longer looks worse. It is not uncommon for one side of a structure to get a lot more salt spray or stay wet a lot longer than the other.

You can drill out screws with one of these (http://www.rockler.com/screw-extractor?source=googleps&sid=V9197&utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Google&gclid=CIDxuqqr0NECFZKDaQodc3YBAg), but the holes will be big. You might be able to start the hole with a screw extractor, then use a similar size tube as a drill guide to remove the rest.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHWeO3_i6mGznWnWPVVF5ahmMscNx Vh5a3m0iSR7J9Wuai98_zFsFb6Y6vpoI&usqp=CAY

The engine is more exciting than the rust. You should try a pair of MTU 6V 890 (http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/products/engine-program/diesel-engines-for-wheeled-and-tracked-armored-vehicles/engines-for-light-and-medium-weight-vehicles/detail/cHash/8645597b536a6e890d50ae60d77662c0/?tx_mcgbshop_shop%5Bengine%5D=979&tx_mcgbshop_shop%5Baction%5D=show&tx_mcgbshop_shop%5Bcontroller%5D=Shop)s.

https://youtu.be/ggEm-rfrw04?t=289

Hill160881
01-20-2017, 07:42 AM
I am sorry but I have actually discussed this with people that actually did something similar and they told me the old wooden hull can't hold the power. The 572s I wanted to use produced 700 hp and 650lbs ft of torque. Again you can do whatever you want but without removing the lower hull and replacing it with multiple layers of plywood and glass mating it won't hold the torque and vibrations. The speed it will achieve is another problem. The wooden planking will start to blow off at 30+ knots. This is from people that put this muchnpower in a boats just Like ours. Also the stringers will never ever be able to hold that torque. You will have to reinforce them with steel the length of the engine room. Your shaft struts will need reinforced and backed with 1/4" steel playing on the back of the new glass/plywood hull..... Have you ever put lots of power in a boat? Then there is the keel need to be reinforced....... it never ends. The one and only 57' Chris craft with almost 2000 ho spent 1/4 million on sturctural work alone.

Please continue with the project but be warned at the structural and material limitations of this boat. One mistake will have the whole thing sunk faster than you can post about it.

Rumars
01-20-2017, 10:03 AM
I think the waterfall is caused by a faulty covering board. Water got between ribs and planking so now rust is coming out from the seams. Ribs are probably also rotten in that area.

Your repower with Meteors will not be what you imagine. Top speed of planing vessels depends on rpm. The higher the rpm the higher the speed. The Meteor has triple the HP over the 6-71 but at the same 2000 rpm's, so no higher speed unless you regear and reprop. A power you will need since you have to carry way more fuel to have the same range. The 27l Meteor will need around 20 us gal/h at idle and 50-80 us gal/h at cruising speed. You need to carry a few metric tons more in fuel to get back the range you would have with diesels. And please don't confuse the Merlins and Meteors with the Packard 3M-2500 that was used on the PT boats. That is a 40L engine derived from the Liberty engine.

As for price keeping I have to laugh at the ideea. You will need to refasten. If you refasten with bronze the cost will be higher than anything you or your children will ever get for the boat. If you refasten with galvanized costs will be lower but it will still be a galvanized fastend boat. Not to mention the structural work you have to do to acomodate the higher HP or regearing and reproping so you can really use the engines. I think anyone buying the boat in the future will keep the Meteors and burn the rest.

MoePorter
01-20-2017, 01:46 PM
"Good comparison - though 3 Merlins would be more like a blown 427 in a TD..."

Ok...so let's put a blown 427 in a TD...what's the plan?

I'd do it by tearing out as much interior as necessary to run 2 full length longitudinals from the transom to the bow - I'd try & get clever & put them in pieces but they'd have to act like one piece. The idea is to give something to tie the existing frames, floors & bulkheads to - we are trying to get the hull to act more like a monocoque structure. This internal reinforcement will likely seriously screwup the original cabin so I'd just gut it at the get-go to get the space to make a realistic foundation for the Merlins. Restore the interior to whatever level you can afford...

Then assuming the planking is as good as you think it is I'd put a structural exterior skin on the bottom that wrapped the chines - really a new bottom to handle the higher speeds. You might get away with leaving the topsides looking original...maybe - but you've shown us photos of rot & sick fasteners & that's just the surface...

This reinforcement would have to be as light as possible...but now what's left of the old Stephens would be riding on a new backbone & hull.

There's no point in putting in Merlins unless you can run this thing across the SF bay at speed through the usual short, steep chop with a smile on your face at the start & at the end...so any hesitation you have to unleashing the Merlins would make all your effort look...silly. Build her up & let her rip or walk away is my advice. Extremely risky project any way you slice it but what the hell...it can be done! Moe

leop
01-20-2017, 04:59 PM
I am sorry but I have actually discussed this with people that actually did something similar and they told me the old wooden hull can't hold the power. The 572s I wanted to use produced 700 hp and 650lbs ft of torque. Again you can do whatever you want but without removing the lower hull and replacing it with multiple layers of plywood and glass mating it won't hold the torque and vibrations. The speed it will achieve is another problem. The wooden planking will start to blow off at 30+ knots. This is from people that put this muchnpower in a boats just Like ours. Also the stringers will never ever be able to hold that torque. You will have to reinforce them with steel the length of the engine room. Your shaft struts will need reinforced and backed with 1/4" steel playing on the back of the new glass/plywood hull..... Have you ever put lots of power in a boat? Then there is the keel need to be reinforced....... it never ends. The one and only 57' Chris craft with almost 2000 ho spent 1/4 million on sturctural work alone.

Please continue with the project but be warned at the structural and material limitations of this boat. One mistake will have the whole thing sunk faster than you can post about it.

So can you tell me how much power you ended up adding to your boat? How much additional, if any, reinforcing dd you need to do in order to run that much power? How had the long term result been? Do you ever wish you had gone with diesels, or are you happy you stuck with gas engines? Did you do the workyourself or hire it out to a yard? How much work and expense did the entire job end up being?

I would like to understand better the path you took so I can look at it as a path I might also follow.

Thanks,

Leo

leop
01-20-2017, 05:04 PM
I think the waterfall is caused by a faulty covering board. Water got between ribs and planking so now rust is coming out from the seams. Ribs are probably also rotten in that area.

Your repower with Meteors will not be what you imagine. Top speed of planing vessels depends on rpm. The higher the rpm the higher the speed. The Meteor has triple the HP over the 6-71 but at the same 2000 rpm's, so no higher speed unless you regear and reprop. A power you will need since you have to carry way more fuel to have the same range. The 27l Meteor will need around 20 us gal/h at idle and 50-80 us gal/h at cruising speed. You need to carry a few metric tons more in fuel to get back the range you would have with diesels. And please don't confuse the Merlins and Meteors with the Packard 3M-2500 that was used on the PT boats. That is a 40L engine derived from the Liberty engine.

As for price keeping I have to laugh at the ideea. You will need to refasten. If you refasten with bronze the cost will be higher than anything you or your children will ever get for the boat. If you refasten with galvanized costs will be lower but it will still be a galvanized fastend boat. Not to mention the structural work you have to do to acomodate the higher HP or regearing and reproping so you can really use the engines. I think anyone buying the boat in the future will keep the Meteors and burn the rest.

I had already counted on re-gearing, new shafts new props and a new bottom.

So what would suggest? As you say the cost of the bronze fasteners is not justified, and refastening with galvanized screws is not going to provide much comfort to me or a new owner? Burn her and walk away? Glass everything and get a few more years out of her?

leop
01-20-2017, 05:14 PM
"Good comparison - though 3 Merlins would be more like a blown 427 in a TD..."

Ok...so let's put a blown 427 in a TD...what's the plan?

I'd do it by tearing out as much interior as necessary to run 2 full length longitudinals from the transom to the bow - I'd try & get clever & put them in pieces but they'd have to act like one piece. The idea is to give something to tie the existing frames, floors & bulkheads to - we are trying to get the hull to act more like a monocoque structure. This internal reinforcement will likely seriously screwup the original cabin so I'd just gut it at the get-go to get the space to make a realistic foundation for the Merlins. Restore the interior to whatever level you can afford...

Then assuming the planking is as good as you think it is I'd put a structural exterior skin on the bottom that wrapped the chines - really a new bottom to handle the higher speeds. You might get away with leaving the topsides looking original...maybe - but you've shown us photos of rot & sick fasteners & that's just the surface...

This reinforcement would have to be as light as possible...but now what's left of the old Stephens would be riding on a new backbone & hull.

There's no point in putting in Merlins unless you can run this thing across the SF bay at speed through the usual short, steep chop with a smile on your face at the start & at the end...so any hesitation you have to unleashing the Merlins would make all your effort look...silly. Build her up & let her rip or walk away is my advice. Extremely risky project any way you slice it but what the hell...it can be done! Moe

Hi Moe,

What you are suggesting is pretty much the plan the naval architect came up with and I agreed to. So if the Meteors were scrapped and a new idea entertained, what is your opinion on the best course of action? I can't see putting $60K of modern diesels into her, and old 6-71 are rebuilt but still really really and I mean really loud! The exhaust also stinks even with the rack set by a pro (his response was - Nature of the beast) so I am not sure those are going to do her any good to install. A pair of big block Chevys is cheaper but not by much. If I can't somehow get her value closer to the cost of restoring her then she's done. I mean almost any boat is going to run negative, but $100k negative is just too much.

I see these Merlin engines in the most delicate looking runabouts. Skinny ribs, double plank bottom with cotton between them (the owners stay close to original because they enter the boats in shows) and bolt together ribs that are smaller in diameter them my wrist. How do they hold together??

leop
01-20-2017, 05:25 PM
I just looked over your build thread. Did you have much trouble getting the one side refastened? I don't think you mentioned what you used for screws: bronze, galvanized steel, Stainless steel? Any trouble with the heads breaking off the old screws - and if so what did you do to get the broken screw out, or did you just leave it?

Rumars
01-20-2017, 07:27 PM
I had already counted on re-gearing, new shafts new props and a new bottom.

So what would suggest? As you say the cost of the bronze fasteners is not justified, and refastening with galvanized screws is not going to provide much comfort to me or a new owner? Burn her and walk away? Glass everything and get a few more years out of her?

If it was my boat I would do as follows:
Replace any rotten wood using hot dipped galvanized fasteners. Any refastening needed (rust bleeds) I would also do with galvanized. Break of the screw head, drill out the shaft, bang in a dovel in epoxy, new screw in. Yes at the end it will be a galvanized fastend boat, so what. Galvanized worked fine for 69 years, no reason for it not to work another 50 years. You loose some hypotetical resale value but this is not a million dollar yacht so you don't loose that much.

For the engines I would stay close to the original specifications. You wrote somewhere that initially the boat was powered with Chryslers then with DD 4-53's. I am not an american engines specialist and please correct me if I am wrong but from what I can see on the internet the Chrysler flathead 8 was rated some 135HP at 2000+rpm and the 4-53 was rated 180HP at 2800rpm. So this boat should be happy with two engines rated 150-200HP at 2000-2800rpm. I would look at the gearbox and prop on the boat and if they are in good order I would select appropiate diesel engines. Here in Germany my choice would be the small 300 series from Mercedes Benz either the OM 352 or the OM 366. They are small and medium size commercial truck inline six engines produced until 1990. The OM 366 was also available in the US, but I imagine there must be a score of other similar engines (inline 6, around 6L displacement, 70's conception, parts still available) from american manufacturers that would be cheaper.

If the transmissions or propellers have problems I would select more modern higher reving engines, maybe 4L displacement, from a light truck or high powered sedan or possibly directly marine. Also diesel, and if possible inline six or some other low vibration configuration. Then regear and reprop as apropiate.

Put a modern exhaust system and some soundproofing in the boat and you should be happy without breaking the bank.

And if I would want more power than initially available I would go for heavy truck engines, 9-10L displacement, 3-400HP.

Cogeniac
01-20-2017, 10:18 PM
Big aircraft engines and an old wooden boat seem like a bad combo. There is one boat I know if that runs twin V12 aircraft engines. Thunderbird, a 50 foot Hackercarft in Tahoe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9DGUItTamI

I might add that this boat is double planked mahogany, and is in bristol condition after about a $3M+ restoration.

As much as the idea seems cool, I am concerned that these engines will destroy your boat in short order. Most big old wooden boats cruise at about 10-18 knots, many, like mine cruise at about 7-9. Add to this that the bay can be very rough (I have seen San Pablo bay out of Vallejo with 6 foot seas... not exactly the place where one might open up a 1000 HP boat... It seems as if you are setting yourself up for some problems. Either a failing hull, or an inability to ever use the boat to its potential.

Personally, I'd sell the Merlins, stick with the 671's and enjoy slow(er) classic cruising..

I shudder at the cost of fuel for this thing. One post above cited 50 GPH. At $3/gal (assuming you don't need special fuel) that's $150/hr.. So, a typical day out on the bay will run $500 easily. In contrast, my pokey old classic burns 1.25 gallons of diesel per hour. I fill up for $100 about once per SEASON..freeing me up to spend thousands on varnish, teak, bronze trinkets, and upkeep.

More importantly, I think your rationale for this based on value is bogus (sorry, but we're all friends here, right?). The cost of doing this conversion properly will probably run into he $500K range. To do it cheaper will mean cutting corners, and that will mean an unsound boat. Sure you might foist it off on some dot come dweeb with more money than brains but is this a financial deal, or a boat restoration? Nobody here really thinks they will ever see a profit from their boat restorations, and the more outlandish the restoration, the more you will narrow your market (eliminating all of the serious boat enthusiasts), and so you will be very lucky to sell it for what it costs you. Meanwhile the few remaining pokey old unmolested classics will eventually become so rare that their value will rise.

If I was out to make a buck, I'd be investing in something other than an old boat..

My 2 cents..

Scott

leop
01-21-2017, 02:49 AM
Big aircraft engines and an old wooden boat seem like a bad combo. There is one boat I know if that runs twin V12 aircraft engines. Thunderbird, an 50 for Hackercarft in Tahoe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9DGUItTamI

I might add that this boat is double planked mahogany, and is in bristol condition after about a $3M+ restoration.

As much as the idea seems cool, I am concerned that these engines will destroy your boat in short order. Most big old wooden boats cruise at about 10-18 knots, many, like mine cruise at about 7-9. Add to this that the bay can be very rough (I have seen San Pablo bay out of Vallejo with 6 foot seas... not exactly the place where one might open up a 1000 HP boat... It seems as if you are setting yourself up for some problems. Either a failing hull, or an inability to ever use the boat to its potential.

Personally, I'd sell the Merlins, stick with the 671's and enjoy slow(er) classic cruising..

I shudder at the cost of fuel for this thing. One post above cited 50 GPH. At $3/gal (assuming you don't need special fuel) that's $150/hr.. So, a typical day out on the bay will run $500 easily. In contrast, my pokey old classic burns 1.25 gallons of diesel per hour. I fill up for $100 about once per SEASON..freeing me up to spend thousands on varnish, teak, bronze trinkets, and upkeep.

More importantly, I think your rationale for this based on value is bogus (sorry, but we're all friends here, right?). The cost of doing this conversion properly will probably run into he $500K range. To do it cheaper will mean cutting corners, and that will mean an unsound boat. Sure you might foist it off on some dot come dweeb with more money than brains but is this a financial deal, or a boat restoration? Nobody here really thinks they will ever see a profit from their boat restorations, and the more outlandish the restoration, the more you will narrow your market (eliminating all of the serious boat enthusiasts), and so you will be very lucky to sell it for what it costs you. Meanwhile the few remaining pokey old unmolested classics will eventually become so rare that their value will rise.

If I was out to make a buck, I'd be investing in something other than an old boat..

My 2 cents..

Scott

Thanks Scott of the advice.

Actually I went up to talk to the folks that take care of Thunderbird. Brought pictures and the design plans for my boat and also sat down with Thunderbird's plans. Actually she is not a lot different than our boats. She is a lot more like my 1948 Chris Craft Utility actually than the Stephens. She was originally fitted with two 500 hp engines. When they were replaced with the two 1100hp Allison engines nothing but a reprop and new shafts was done. She is in great shape of course, very well taken care of to be sure, but according to her caretakers the engines don't cause as many problems as people think.

Here is the comparison

6-71 220hp, weight = 2190lb, fuel consumption = 9 gal/hr or at $3.09/gal = $27.81/hr * 2 engines = $55.62/hr @ 10 knots = $5.62/Nm
Engine cost = 1K + rebuild kit + my time = ~ $3K/engine
These things are loud, really loud! The leak oil like hell even with fresh brand new OEM DD gaskets. Between the oil and noise my wife said don't start those things up in the garage ever again!

Meteor 600hp, weight = 1400lbs, fuel consumption = ~43 gal/hr (still fussing with FI, MPG might get better) $3.19/gal = $137/hr. On one engine she will do 20 knots so $6.86/Nm
Engine cost = 4K + rebuild kit + machine custom trans mount + FI system = ~ 10k/engine so far. Engine will last forever at this power level. Will make that power down to 68 octane fuel.
This engine is also loud, but the exhaust doesn't stink and as of 15hrs run time it does not leak oil. I am however not allowed to start this one in the garage either :(

I won't even list a Cummings marine or BB Mercruiser because the cost of those motors is ridiculous.

I have also been working with these folks and they also don't believe that http://www.newenglandboatandmotor.com/rolls-royce-engines-for-sale that a tremendous amount of reinforcing would be required.

Her engine beds are already solid 4x7 beams that run from the engine room all the way back to the transom. I have got to think that they ran those all the way back to the transom for a reason. I can see there used to be a much larger engines installed as well. Add to that the original owner Paul Koss sold the boat after loosing a race between Saint Francis Yacht club and Sausalito Yacht club and ordered another Stephens with three engines this time and I get the feeling that he put big engines in his boats.

On the other hand you are all unanimous that those big engines are a mistake so I need to consider that carefully. But the 6-71s ..... I don't know. They sound cool for about 10 min and after that they start to wear on your nerves!

leop
01-21-2017, 03:00 AM
Ohh, by the way. Have you bought your new toilet yet? I need three of them and was thinking we might get a break on them if we order four of them at once.

Bob Adams
01-21-2017, 09:43 AM
6 71's song can be effectively muted. A 4 inch Vernatone muffler in the lazzerette and plenty of water flow is the cure. I've done this on several classic yachts. Also, the Detroits will not shake your boat apart. From a vibration standpoint, they are some of the smoothest engines out there.

Cogeniac
01-21-2017, 10:34 AM
Well, the V12s sure sound cool..

I suppose it is all a matter of the condition of your hull. If it is sound and well built, then it could be a good conversion.

The fact that you are not planning to run them at 1K hp also helps a lot! and, as you say, they will last forever!

Running on one engine will save fuel, but, I assume you know that the boat will handle MUCH better with both engines going.

How on earth did you manage to start and run a 671 in your garage? :eek: Just holding the sucker down would be a challenge! And, without a lot of water flowing through the exhaust, I'll BET they were loud!!

I didn't replace my toilet. I replaced the 20 YO 'Lectrasan. It was a horrible job. First, removing the old one without spilling the reeking sewage was a trick. Fortunately we had not used it much, and only for pee (we usually hang out at Grindstone's and they have bathrooms near the docks)... but it was still a stinky job. Multiple Hefty bags can be your friend!!

I replaced all the hoses, and plumbed in a Purasan unit. The Purasan has a lot more external parts, which all had to be mounted, plumbed and wired. The Purasan uses an external chlorine generator that contains hypochlorite tablets (like big pool chlorine tablets). When you flush, it pumps water into the chlorine unit, makes a dose of high octane chlorine and then pumps it into the processing unit. The processing unit is the same as a 'Lectrasan, except it doesn't have the fancy platinum electrode (because it doesn't have to make its own chlorine from salt water. ). There is the processor unit, a control unit, a water pressure pump, and an air purge pump (to empty the chlorine unit). So, a $hit ton of parts, tube and wires, solenoid valves, etc. Seems overly complicated to me.. but I'm an electrical guy, not a poop guy...

I got it all mounted and it works fine. The current setup requires you to flush the toilet manually (not timed). The old unit used the l'Lectrasan processor board to time the toilet, but because of the pump timing, this one isn't used that way. I have a time delay relay now for the toilet, so I'll fix that shortly (so, a one-touch flush, instead of having to hold the button down).

Of course, all of this new plumbing meant that my beautiful custom made teak toilet plumbing cover doesn't quite fit..so I have a little additional surgery to do on that...

The boat is now out at Oxbow marina near Rio Vista. Much better cruising, under cover, etc...


Cheers!

Scott

MoePorter
01-21-2017, 01:48 PM
"I see these Merlin engines in the most delicate looking runabouts. Skinny ribs, double plank bottom with cotton between them (the owners stay close to original because they enter the boats in shows) and bolt together ribs that are smaller in diameter them my wrist. How do they hold together??"

The double plank bottom & the relatively short length is roughly why they work in delicate looking runabouts. You've got another 20+ ft sticking out the front that needs to hold together@ 20+ kts. All that weight is trying to pull itself apart with forces it was never designed to survive. They were engineered for those forces in the design stage. Thunderbird is a great example - but she has a double planked hull & was designed by Hacker - the top speed designer of his era...so a poor comparison.

You don't want a slow, noisy boat - and don't want to lose 100grand at the end of it...with those limitations you have no place to go with those Merlins...
If you can desire a "slow" (ah..stately, er..dignified, um..relaxing) 13kt quiet boat - in which case twin gas or maybe two small diesels would get you on the water & appeal to a larger number of future buyers.

First though I'd get a much better idea of the condition of the hull - as Rumars mentioned "I think the waterfall is caused by a faulty covering board. Water got between ribs and planking so now rust is coming out from the seams. Ribs are probably also rotten in that area." That's the first thing I'd look into - way before all the repower talk. How much of the interior of the hull can you actually poke at? The whole length of the backbone structure? All the frames & floors & stringers? Whatever you do make sure you really desire the end product because it will be a long slog to get there whatever you decide about the ultimate power choice. Good luck. Moe

leop
01-21-2017, 03:44 PM
"I see these Merlin engines in the most delicate looking runabouts. Skinny ribs, double plank bottom with cotton between them (the owners stay close to original because they enter the boats in shows) and bolt together ribs that are smaller in diameter them my wrist. How do they hold together??"

The double plank bottom & the relatively short length is roughly why they work in delicate looking runabouts. You've got another 20+ ft sticking out the front that needs to hold together@ 20+ kts. All that weight is trying to pull itself apart with forces it was never designed to survive. They were engineered for those forces in the design stage. Thunderbird is a great example - but she has a double planked hull & was designed by Hacker - the top speed designer of his era...so a poor comparison.

You don't want a slow, noisy boat - and don't want to lose 100grand at the end of it...with those limitations you have no place to go with those Merlins...
If you can desire a "slow" (ah..stately, er..dignified, um..relaxing) 13kt quiet boat - in which case twin gas or maybe two small diesels would get you on the water & appeal to a larger number of future buyers.

First though I'd get a much better idea of the condition of the hull - as Rumars mentioned "I think the waterfall is caused by a faulty covering board. Water got between ribs and planking so now rust is coming out from the seams. Ribs are probably also rotten in that area." That's the first thing I'd look into - way before all the repower talk. How much of the interior of the hull can you actually poke at? The whole length of the backbone structure? All the frames & floors & stringers? Whatever you do make sure you really desire the end product because it will be a long slog to get there whatever you decide about the ultimate power choice. Good luck. Moe

Thanks Moe,

I looked over those ribs. From the back side probing with a knife I don't feel any rot. I also tapped them with a hammer and they sounded solid. I was able to inspect them all the way from the bilge to within 3 inches of the gunnel. They could be damaged in those first three inches I suppose, that is where the end grain is after all. I also probed and tapped the planks and they seemed solid. There could be rot in pockets between the plank the rib suppose.

When I saw the rust I turned her around in her slip so that she was now bow in so perhaps I caught it in time.

Yes the covering boards are in bad shape but I think the problem is that someone in the past glassed the deck over and then screwed down the covering boards without bedding them or sealing the screw holes. Water probably ran down the deck, under the covering boards hit the screws and ran down them and into the gunnel area. The glass kept everything wet. I'll pull the covering boards on that side and the glass too and see how bad the damage is. I have already done it on the port side and there was only a single rib and top plank damaged and that is nearly fixed now.

I have checked every rib and floor timber from stem to stern. The only rot I found was in a single rib > the one on the port side bow that you see missing in the pictures. I was not able to check them all the way to thier tops as mentioned above, but bottoms and floor timbers were solid. There are one or two planks on her top sides in the splash zone that have maybe two or three inches of rot at Thier ends. Someone treated them with CEPs and they seam stable for now.

There was lots of rot in the transoms that I can tell a professional shipwright got fixed to within 80%.

Here is a picture of her in her glory days. Any idea how fast she is going?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7358/11806731803_56e41d82de_k.jpg

leop
01-21-2017, 04:03 PM
Well, the V12s sure sound cool..

I suppose it is all a matter of the condition of your hull. If it is sound and well built, then it could be a good conversion.

The fact that you are not planning to run them at 1K hp also helps a lot! and, as you say, they will last forever!

Running on one engine will save fuel, but, I assume you know that the boat will handle MUCH better with both engines going.

How on earth did you manage to start and run a 671 in your garage? :eek: Just holding the sucker down would be a challenge! And, without a lot of water flowing through the exhaust, I'll BET they were loud!!

I didn't replace my toilet. I replaced the 20 YO 'Lectrasan. It was a horrible job. First, removing the old one without spilling the reeking sewage was a trick. Fortunately we had not used it much, and only for pee (we usually hang out at Grindstone's and they have bathrooms near the docks)... but it was still a stinky job. Multiple Hefty bags can be your friend!!

I replaced all the hoses, and plumbed in a Purasan unit. The Purasan has a lot more external parts, which all had to be mounted, plumbed and wired. The Purasan uses an external chlorine generator that contains hypochlorite tablets (like big pool chlorine tablets). When you flush, it pumps water into the chlorine unit, makes a dose of high octane chlorine and then pumps it into the processing unit. The processing unit is the same as a 'Lectrasan, except it doesn't have the fancy platinum electrode (because it doesn't have to make its own chlorine from salt water. ). There is the processor unit, a control unit, a water pressure pump, and an air purge pump (to empty the chlorine unit). So, a $hit ton of parts, tube and wires, solenoid valves, etc. Seems overly complicated to me.. but I'm an electrical guy, not a poop guy...

I got it all mounted and it works fine. The current setup requires you to flush the toilet manually (not timed). The old unit used the l'Lectrasan processor board to time the toilet, but because of the pump timing, this one isn't used that way. I have a time delay relay now for the toilet, so I'll fix that shortly (so, a one-touch flush, instead of having to hold the button down).

Of course, all of this new plumbing meant that my beautiful custom made teak toilet plumbing cover doesn't quite fit..so I have a little additional surgery to do on that...

The boat is now out at Oxbow marina near Rio Vista. Much better cruising, under cover, etc...


Cheers!

Scott

Hi Scott,

Starting the engine in the garage was not too bad. It was bolted to big perpendicular timbers and it is so friken heavy that it didn't budge a bit. I was running water through it. She was pulling from my fire suppression tanks and I loaded her down using an old truck retarder that I picked up to build an engine dyno with ..... Someday ........You know when I get some free time.

You know a great of the noise they make is from the intake. The blower makes one hell of a racket and on the marine version they don't run an air filter, just a backfire protector and emergency air shutdown in case she runs away from you - though it looked to me that she would swallow the air shutter hole if you tried to use it to shut her down.

Does the Lectrasan still work? Want to sell it? I have l one two but the parts to fix it are more than a new one. Perhaps I can make one good one out of two broken ones.

Would love to see the boat someday. Let me know the next time you are out there and I'll be happy to come help out.

Leo

Rumars
01-21-2017, 07:44 PM
It will be a small wonder if you don't have rot in the frames, but stranger things have happened. You need to get that boat out of the water and surveyed.

As Moe said, those runabouts are tougher than you think. Another thing to consider is the safety factor. Cruising boats are usually designed with a safety factor of three. Racing boats are designed with a smaller safety factor and therefore look flimsy altough they are not. There is just enough material to do the job, and the construction is different, not to mention they usually do only flatwater at WOT.
Problem in your case is that if the boat was designed for 300HP when you put 1300HP on her you are in negative safety regions. Plank on frame is also not something for high speed motorboats.

I also can't follow your financial reasoning. You are willing to spend at least 15000$ per engine (I added a transmission and prop plus the cost of marinizing to your initial 10000$) plus the cost of a new bottom to support the power (god only knows how much that will cost) but you are not willing to spend the same 15000$ for a rebuildt Cummins QSB or International DT466 or similar that comes already marinized, fits your transmision and does not need a new bottom? A pair of Cummins QSB rated at 400HP would give you more power than a single Meteor, the boat would handle better, they would consume less fuel, and the number of future potential buyers would increase since it is a known diesel engine. I also believe that with a bit of patience you could find such engines for less. If you are willing to get of the high power horse then a pair of Cummins 4B would also fit the bill for less money.

I also don't understand the problems you have with the 6-71's. Any engine can be muffled, it's only a matter of space. It's true that most marine engines don't have air filters because sea air is considered pure enough, but it's not mandatory. You can put on the biggest air filter you can squeeze in. Modern sound proofing also helps.
If the engine leaks that means someone was sloppy. If the engine was buildt to wartime tolerances how hard can it be to true up the mating surfaces or smear some liquid gasket on the factory gaskets? It's not 1943 anymore.
Running big engines in the garage when the wife is at home? You crazy or what? Thats something for sunday morning when everybody is either at church or at the pub (country club).

If you really can't live without the Meteor in the boat than consider this:
Buy 2 cheap light 150HP gas or diesel engines that fit your current powertrain. Can even be the original Chrysler flatheads in the interest of historical accuracy. Then take the Meteor and mount it in between on the boats centerline. You will probably need a V drive for this. When you need to show of just fire up the big sucker, and enjoy relaxed cruising otherwise.

Have you had the Meteor on a scale? My info sais it weighs 1841 lb. The Merlin is quoted at 1642 lb. I think you are confusing them with the Packards 3M-2500.
The engine will not "last forever". Recreational marine engines are refurbished because of corrosion not because of wear. Regardless of actual use, in a few years they will need rebuilding.

leop
01-22-2017, 12:00 AM
It will be a small wonder if you don't have rot in the frames, but stranger things have happened. You need to get that boat out of the water and surveyed.

As Moe said, those runabouts are tougher than you think. Another thing to consider is the safety factor. Cruising boats are usually designed with a safety factor of three. Racing boats are designed with a smaller safety factor and therefore look flimsy altough they are not. There is just enough material to do the job, and the construction is different, not to mention they usually do only flatwater at WOT.
Problem in your case is that if the boat was designed for 300HP when you put 1300HP on her you are in negative safety regions. Plank on frame is also not something for high speed motorboats.

I also can't follow your financial reasoning. You are willing to spend at least 15000$ per engine (I added a transmission and prop plus the cost of marinizing to your initial 10000$) plus the cost of a new bottom to support the power (god only knows how much that will cost) but you are not willing to spend the same 15000$ for a rebuildt Cummins QSB or International DT466 or similar that comes already marinized, fits your transmision and does not need a new bottom? A pair of Cummins QSB rated at 400HP would give you more power than a single Meteor, the boat would handle better, they would consume less fuel, and the number of future potential buyers would increase since it is a known diesel engine. I also believe that with a bit of patience you could find such engines for less. If you are willing to get of the high power horse then a pair of Cummins 4B would also fit the bill for less money.

I also don't understand the problems you have with the 6-71's. Any engine can be muffled, it's only a matter of space. It's true that most marine engines don't have air filters because sea air is considered pure enough, but it's not mandatory. You can put on the biggest air filter you can squeeze in. Modern sound proofing also helps.
If the engine leaks that means someone was sloppy. If the engine was buildt to wartime tolerances how hard can it be to true up the mating surfaces or smear some liquid gasket on the factory gaskets? It's not 1943 anymore.
Running big engines in the garage when the wife is at home? You crazy or what? Thats something for sunday morning when everybody is either at church or at the pub (country club).

If you really can't live without the Meteor in the boat than consider this:
Buy 2 cheap light 150HP gas or diesel engines that fit your current powertrain. Can even be the original Chrysler flatheads in the interest of historical accuracy. Then take the Meteor and mount it in between on the boats centerline. You will probably need a V drive for this. When you need to show of just fire up the big sucker, and enjoy relaxed cruising otherwise.

Have you had the Meteor on a scale? My info sais it weighs 1841 lb. The Merlin is quoted at 1642 lb. I think you are confusing them with the Packards 3M-2500.
The engine will not "last forever". Recreational marine engines are refurbished because of corrosion not because of wear. Regardless of actual use, in a few years they will need rebuilding.

Hi Rumars,

Yes I agree about the lack of rot. But I crawled all over the boat for almost three days. I removed internal furniture, got stuck a few times (was able to stave off panic long enough to get out) and ended up cleaning so much junk off the boat just to get access that we filled the marina dumpster and got a hell of a yelling at. I had not bought her yet, it was just so that I could see what she really was. I may have missed something but if I did it was because I didn't know what I was looking at, not because I didn't see it.

I already have transmissions for the meteors so that's why I didn't add them in.

Yes, a modern diesel would be the same or possibly less. Perhaps it just irks me that Cummings takes their basic 6.5L engine, adds some cast heat exchangers, a new tune via the computer and POW the price triples. And what have you got => the same engine everyone else has and you have no idea how most of it works so you end up having to call a Cummings Tech out to the boat whenever they act up. Over on Boat Diesel I did lots of research and there were some real horror stories about Techs charging $300 just to show up and then their idea of debugging a problem was to start swapping parts till it was fixed and you are the one paying for the parts!!!?????? Cummings also crank so much power out of that little tinny engine that you end up doing rebuilds sometimes in as little as 1000hrs or less. The 6.7L engine is a bored and stroked derivative of the 5.9L block - which was designed to make 220HP! Put a heat exchanger on it, crank up the power to 480hp and make sure the warranty is only a year. And it's not just Cummings that does this, they all do it.

For the Meteors I built my heat exchangers to ASME specifications, pressure tested them to 300 PSI and they cost me $50 in materials at the scrap yard. Real copper on the tubes and real bronze for the shell and a full floating as well. Two hours on the computer, 15 min on the CNC mill and an hour to tig welding them up. I put the inlets and outlets exactly where I wanted them. I added a window to one end so I could see when they needed cleaning. The best part is that I know exactly how they work and exactly how to fix them. I tore the meteor down myself, set the valve lash, checked clearances, timed the magnetos, and tuned the fuel injection myself. It breaks I can least approach fixing it with better than a parts swapping approach!

The Meteors weigh more than the merlins because they have a ton of junk bolted onto them for the tank application they were designed for. Once you take all that junk off they are basically a Merlin without the supercharger so they weigh a bit less. I also made my own oil pan (so the oil was easier to change when in the boat) and valve covers so that cut some weight as well. I have not weighed them though so I cannot tell for sure what they weigh.

The 6-71s are a two stroke diesel (as you probably know) so they use a blower to force air into the engine and this pressurizes the air box which sees oil from the cylinders. You have to vent that oil so that's one source of "leaks". Okay you use a puke can, but you need to remember to empty it. Also, they vibrate like hell so no matter how perfect you seal everything everything up the repeated hot cold cycles plus the vibration eventual erode the gaskets. After that happens the pressurized block starts to dribble oil here and there. They are famous for doing this. So far everyone has told me to just accept a certain amount of oil in the catch pan under the engine. Most engines run negative crankcase pressure so that's why you don't see oil leaks being as much of a problem in other engines. Yes, I could keep on top of the engines and seal every leak as soon as it comes up but that does not sound fun long term.

Yes you can use air cleaner to muffle the input but air cleaners are really designed to filter air, not sound. The blower makes a sort of high pitches air sucking sound that the filters I experimented with just don't seam to muffle. I have read of designs with an inverted cone but they are big ungainly things. The vibration is also transmitted throughout the boat via the beds. Don;t get me wrong they are cool engines and a testament to their designers. There would not have been a single Higgins landing craft on the beaches of Normandy had it not been for the 6-71. They were built to take an armor piercing round into the block, loose a cylinder, and keep running! They are truly a historic engine to be admired and studied - but maybe not lived with in a yacht :)

I am engine guy so I religiously start my engines at minimum once per month and put them under a load. I test the oil at home so I can tell right away the acidity, salt content, water content and breakdown pressure. I don't intend to let any engine in my boat corrode. The bilge in the engine room is dry so that helps. I have yet to finalize the exhaust design but If I need to put a four inch ball valve on each exhaust outlet to keep moist salt air from making it's way backward through an open exhaust valve to the combustion chamber I will. The temps and flow in and out of the heat exchanger, oil cooler, and expansion tank are monitored by the computer so when something gets blocked the computer lets me know right away. Tested it by sending bits of rag and weed into the raw water intake.

I am not sure which engine I am going run. Many comments on this forum have given me pause regarding the Meteors. One thing is for sure though, given the money I have spent on her to date, (and in the future) as well as the blood spilled on her decks it just doesn't make sense to re-build her and then not be happy with the result. Her (the boat not wife) account still has almost $100K left in it so I have some money to play with and while I don't think it would buy her a new plastic bottom I am for sure going to re-fasten her and make sure that she is at least as strong on her bottom and hull as she was when she left the factory. As for giving a small portion of the budget away to Cummings in return for 400hp diesels I just don't see that happening unless I found a good deal on some. After a year of looking no good deals have come up, on this coast at least.

Thank you very much for your input. Everyone on this forum has been very helpful and I really appreciate the input. The idea is crazy so the skepticism is warranted and no one here has an agenda - which is not the case for my Naval Architect. So I am listening and thinking and will be investigating when she comes out of the water.

Leo

Rumars
01-22-2017, 09:44 AM
I hope you find some way to be satisfied. I understand the desire to have something different. I would go for the 3 engine setup with the Meteor in the middle. For the other engines I would also look at something different. I really don't know what you can find and be happy with. Opposed piston diesels maybe, or sliding valve, or some other crazy invention.

I hope you used Cu-Ni tubes for the heat exchanger. Pure copper is n8ot recomended.
Mounting valves on the exhaust and admission is the only way to prevent corosion.

Bob Adams
01-22-2017, 09:44 AM
If your 6 71s vibrate, there is something wrong. If you get oil out of the airbox drains, there is something wrong. If they are leaking oil there is something wrong. It is relatively easy to get 280 HP out of them without turbocharging (with 4 valve heads) and intake noise is muffled by engine room sound suppression. As it appears you have many misconceptions about the engines, and are not going to use them, I'll have nothing more to say. The Merlins certainly would be an interesting choice, good luck.

carioca1232001
01-22-2017, 12:58 PM
..... Here in Germany my choice would be the small 300 series from Mercedes Benz either the OM 352 or the OM 366. They are small and medium size commercial truck inline six engines produced until 1990. The OM 366 was also available in the US, but I imagine there must be a score of other similar engines (inline 6, around 6L displacement, 70's conception, parts still available) from american manufacturers that would be cheaper.

If the transmissions or propellers have problems I would select more modern higher reving engines, maybe 4L displacement, from a light truck or high powered sedan or possibly directly marine. Also diesel, and if possible inline six or some other low vibration configuration..........

The MB 352, 366 series are manufactured in Brazil and have gained wide accpetance for marine use in the 200-300 HP category, but if higher power (400-600 HP) is desired, recourse is made to MB 447.

These engines are marinised by a couple of Brazilian firms with price tags lower then say MTU, an MB affiliate/subsidiary.

Same for Motoren Werke Mannheimīs (MWMīs) 4 and 6 cylinder offerings, except that the 4-cylinder model was fitted with a factory-standard contra-rotating shaft in the crankcase, that left the operator in doubt if the vessel was powered by a 6-cylinder engine...a smooth as silk 4-cylinder diesel, unlike MBīs 364 (shake, rattle and roll).

Bob Adams
01-22-2017, 01:05 PM
Hi Everyone,

I am getting ready to pull my boat for repairs and paint. I have rust streaks running down from the original galvanized screws that she was fastened with.

What's strange is that the Port side looks as you would expect, each screw has a stain.

However the Starboard side has me puzzled. The rust streaks appear to come from the calking. They are like long rust waterfalls emerging from between planks and the pour down her topsides. As if the boat was caulked with steel wool. Has anyone seen this before?


The boat is covered so no rain hits her, just the occasional wash down.

All rust stains just appeared in the last year as if overnight? Bonding or electrolysis issue?

What do I need to do to repair all this. Re- is my last resort this year. How to asses if the fasteners will hold a few more seasons? Go to treat the rust, patch the plugs and paint to protect them from further damage?


PORT SIDE WITH "NORMAL" Rust stains. Ignore damage to gunnel for now.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15614388729_c3d782592f_c.jpg


STARBOARD SIDE with the Abnormal rust waterfalls
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3420/13072290263_33aafdc955_c.jpg

Those stains are obviously coming from an external source in the 2nd picture. I suspect water is running under (behind) what appears to be a rub rail, picking up rust then running down the side.

carioca1232001
01-22-2017, 02:39 PM
Those stains are obviously coming from an external source in the 2nd picture. I suspect water is running under (behind) what appears to be a rub rail, picking up rust then running down the side.

We often associate rust with ferrous fasteners and fixtures, but I learnt on my 54-year old motor cruiser that :

1. Aged copper-alloy-based fasteners exude rust into the exterior paint work on an old boat;

2. A cracked side-deck plank will.... aside from letting in water in to the topsides, ensure that it trickles down to the bilge via the hull planking, activating as it were, the corroded plank-frame fasteners on itīs way down.

It took me several frustrating years of making recourse to cosmetic measures in this very regard, prior to deciding on re-planking the topsides from bow to stern.

Finally I decided to take out the corroded screws, exercising maximum care so as not to damage the planks as well as the frames beneath, and installing new SiBr screws with the complete goo package (red-lead primer down the holes, screw threads immersed into a doplhinite-type of home-brew, scew-heads bunged over etc..).

It has been 5-6 years now and havenīt seen any rust stains anywhere...red-lead primer and dolphinite-type home-brew is close to miraculous stuff !

leop
01-22-2017, 07:28 PM
We often associate rust with ferrous fasteners and fixtures, but I learnt on my 54-year old motor cruiser that :

1. Aged copper-alloy-based fasteners exude rust into the exterior paint work on an old boat;

2. A cracked side-deck plank will.... aside from letting in water in to the topsides, ensure that it trickles down to the bilge via the hull planking, activating as it were, the corroded plank-frame fasteners on itīs way down.

It took me several frustrating years of making recourse to cosmetic measures in this very regard, prior to deciding on re-planking the topsides from bow to stern.

Finally I decided to take out the corroded screws, exercising maximum care so as not to damage the planks as well as the frames beneath, and installing new SiBr screws with the complete goo package (red-lead primer down the holes, screw threads immersed into a doplhinite-type of home-brew, scew-heads bunged over etc..).

It has been 5-6 years now and havenīt seen any rust stains anywhere...red-lead primer and doplhinite-type home-brew is close to miraculous stuff !

Can you tell me where you got the red-lead primer? Can it still be purchased. I looked high and low for white lead and never found it so I am making some now but it's taking a long (and boring) time watching the lead turn to white flakes. Is red lead as effective as white lead?

Can you point me to a recipe for home brew doplhinite?

Did you have any problems with the screw heads twisting off?

carioca1232001
01-22-2017, 08:39 PM
Can you tell me where you got the red-lead primer? Can it still be purchased. I looked high and low for white lead and never found it so I am making some now but it's taking a long (and boring) time watching the lead turn to white flakes. Is red lead as effective as white lead?

I brew my own red-lead primer, with a reliable and repeatable recipe disclosed on this very forum by a former forumite (Col.'Bob' Smalser):

3-4 lbs of red-lead powder;

one litre of linseed oil (unboiled);

one litre of turpentine distilled from pine;

a couple of soup-spoons of 'japan drier'; (I have used cobalt drier, a couple of tea-spoons only, as sold in polyester resin / hardener retailers, to good avail);

The above ingredients are poured into an empty gallon can and thoroughly stirred by using an attachment that is coupled to the chuck of an electrical-drill, then the lid is put on and the can kept in the sun for a week.

Ready to go, after opening the can and stirring !


Can you point me to a recipe for home brew doplhinite ?

You can have mine, as I tried to obtain one on the web, but to no avail:

1. 1 kilogram of 'plaster chalk' (artists use this on some of their paintings)

2. pure linseed oil

3. pure linseed oil saturated with bees wax over a steam bath

4. pure linseed oil saturated with pine-resin over a steam bath

5. red-lead powder

6. turpentine

Take some plaster chalk (item 1 ) and pure linseed oil (item 2) and whip it manually with a trowel to a peanut-butter type consistency; now add some red lead powder to have it look like 'salmon spread';

For a water-proofing type of bedding-compound with 'some stickiness', whip into the above mixture with a trowel, a reasonable amount of item 3 and a smaller amount of item 4;

For an adhesive-compound, with 'some water-proofing', add more of item 4 and less of item 3

Finally, some drops of tupentine (item 6) to the mixture that is going to be used as a bedding-compound or an adhesive, that will ensure a 'dry skin' to the external layer

Iīve used this stuff for bedding tempered-glass panes on my windshields etc. and for bedding together wooden parts that may need to be disassembled in the future...works fine !


Did you have any problems with the screw heads twisting off?

Yes, but patience is the name of the game ! I found it much easier to unscrew the undersides than the topsides, but I have always wondered...... why ? !

You will need to buy some 'unscrew-ums' sized in accordance with the screws currently in place, and you should be OK !

Hope this helps

leop
01-22-2017, 10:04 PM
I brew my own red-lead primer, with a reliable and repeatable recipe disclosed on this very forum by a former forumite (Col.'Bob' Smalser):

3-4 lbs of red-lead powder;

one litre of linseed oil (unboiled);

one litre of turpentine distilled from pine;

a couple of soup-spoons of 'japan drier'; (I have used cobalt drier, a couple of tea-spoons only, as sold in polyester resin / hardener retailers, to good avail);

The above ingredients are poured into an empty gallon can and thoroughly stirred by using an attachment that is coupled to the chuck of an electrical-drill, then the lid is put on and the can kept in the sun for a week.

Ready to go, after opening the can and stirring !



You can have mine, as I tried to obtain one on the web, but to no avail:

1. 1 kilogram of 'plaster chalk' (artists use this on some of their paintings)

2. pure linseed oil

3. pure linseed oil saturated with bees wax over a steam bath

4. pure linseed oil saturated with pine-resin over a steam bath

5. red-lead powder

6. turpentine

Take some plaster chalk (item 1 ) and pure linseed oil (item 2) and whip it manually with a trowel to a peanut-butter type consistency; now add some red lead powder to have it look like 'salmon spread';

For a water-proofing type of bedding-compound with 'some stickiness', whip into the above mixture with a trowel, a reasonable amount of item 3 and a smaller amount of item 4;

For an adhesive-compound, with 'some water-proofing', add more of item 4 and less of item 3

Finally, some drops of tupentine (item 6) to the mixture that is going to be used as a bedding-compound or an adhesive, that will ensure a 'dry skin' to the external layer

Iīve used this stuff for bedding tempered-glass panes on my windshields etc. and for bedding together wooden parts that may need to be disassembled in the future...works fine !



Yes, but patience is the name of the game ! I found it much easier to unscrew the undersides than the topsides, but I have always wondered...... why ? !

You will need to buy some 'unscrew-ums' sized in accordance with the screws currently in place, and you should be OK !

Hope this helps

Thank you sir. I shall commence to brew some of both up as I have discovered the source of the problem and will be at the boat next weekend fixing it.

Leo

Paul Denison
01-22-2017, 10:17 PM
What did you find was causing the bleeding?

leop
01-22-2017, 10:26 PM
So the mystery is solved, or rather was solved by some posters and confirmed + a bit extra.

Those black planks between the port holes are actually black Plexiglas. At some point in her past someone chopped out the plank there and installed those in order to bring more light into the cabin. The Plexiglas sits in a rail made of guess what - rust. Well it was probably steel but now it's rust. Furthermore the trim you see in the pictures is both covering up the rusty rail and is also attached with guess what - steel hardware store nails. There are trim strips inside attached with steel nails as well but those have putty over them.

The boat has a slight list to Starboard because I only keep the water tank on that side topped off and have left the other side empty; hose does not reach the other tank. when the deck gets wet the water + rust mixture drips down the outside on the Starboard side and you see the rust. On the port side it drips down the inside of the hull where it occasionally contacts a screw, wets it and eventually migrates to the head by a sort of wicking action with the screw. From there it appears to eventually make its way out from under the bugs. A lot less makes it out this way which is why the rust stains are isolated and more faint on the Port side.

Next week I'll be going down to remove those Plexiglas panels (was always intending to anyway), whats left of the rusty steel Plexiglas holding rails and all the trim and rusty nails. I'll rinse the rust off and soak the wood with bug juice after that. Before temporarily sealing it up I'll take some 3D scans and make a pattern for the two new plank required on each side. I will miss the extra light, but those panels never looked right and obviously were never installed right - if ever there even was a way to install such a thing correctly in a boats hull; I think not.

On the port side I'll also pull a few fasteners to see if they produced the rust, or it migrated down from the steel rail for the plexi or both. Whatever screws come out I'll replace with SiBz screws and bug juice + carioca1232001's recipe as listed above.

When the computer has the planks roughed out I'll go back up and install them. Will probably hire out the cotton caulking job, though I might give it a swing first; pun intended.

To all who provided input thanks. If you can think of anything else I can do while I am in there pulling out the Plexiglas and rails and putting in new planks please comment.

As for the engines a final decision is on hold. I'll finish up the rest of the boat while I continue to do research on the best engines for her. On this subject I am sure that no encouragement is needed for comments :)

Does anyone know how I can append this thread onto the boats build thread?

Hill160881
01-23-2017, 07:40 AM
So can you tell me how much power you ended up adding to your boat? How much additional, if any, reinforcing dd you need to do in order to run that much power? How had the long term result been? Do you ever wish you had gone with diesels, or are you happy you stuck with gas engines? Did you do the workyourself or hire it out to a yard? How much work and expense did the entire job end up being?

I would like to understand better the path you took so I can look at it as a path I might also follow.

Thanks,

Leo
Adding only 210 hp and 100 lbs feet torque to the original structure is all I did and I will detune the engines up above 3500 rpms. I am having steel stringer beds made that extend most of the length of the engine room to mount the new engines to. I will refassen and re-bed the shaft struts and logs with a steel backer next year before I put it on plane and go over20 knots. All this for an extra 210 hp and 100 lbs feet torque. Why? It would hold the power most likely but not for 20 years.......

Hill160881
01-23-2017, 08:15 AM
Given what you have said about her structural and cosmetic condition I would scrap her and find a better boat. I just watched a 50' Trojan gonfor 10k and needed only 10k in superficial rot fixed, Has twomperkins diesels, Passed the survey with flying colors. With 20 grand on hand you will find a boat worthy of a restoration and you will save many many thousands and years of wasted effort. Hell find a good glass boat and your merlins would be a great fit.

It will cost you at least 30k to refassen and get the hull to good condition without reinforcing anything. That's a low estimate from someone who has and is doing this myself. You will spend at least this to repower her properly unless you use used equipment. Then there is the cosmetic issues I assume are in bad shape below decks. Now let's remember she is old and has no modern electronics and the dc system needs upgraded and new electronics.......

I personally want my old wooden boat and plan to keep her so the cost is not an issue. Once you pass the 60k dollar mark you are well past getting your money back. For 60k you can get a fully modern yacht.......

Are you retired? This project will consume about 3/4 of a years time. It will take you 6-8 months to re-fasten and recalk this old girl. You got the time? I work on boats in the winter season and work in the green industry in Ca during the summer so I have months at a time off.

There re are so many factors to consider when thinking about a boat like this as a project. Basically if you have kids or a woman don't even bother starting. If you can't devote at least 2 months solid months a year in work to her don't even start it. If you think there is any reason you won't be able to finish her DONT START THIS! Without completion all money is lost.

I am somewhat local if you need any help!

Bob Adams
01-23-2017, 09:40 AM
A Trojan over this boat? Really???

nedL
01-23-2017, 12:10 PM
A Trojan over this boat? Really???

Ditto

(Like going from a Ford Crown Victoria to a Dodge Dart.)

leop
01-23-2017, 12:47 PM
Adding only 210 hp and 100 lbs feet torque to the original structure is all I did and I will detune the engines up above 3500 rpms. I am having steel stringer beds made that extend most of the length of the engine room to mount the new engines to. I will refassen and re-bed the shaft struts and logs with a steel backer next year before I put it on plane and go over20 knots. All this for an extra 210 hp and 100 lbs feet torque. Why? It would hold the power most likely but not for 20 years.......

Thanks for getting back to me with that information. Good luck with the crusaders.

Hill160881
01-24-2017, 08:03 AM
Yes a double planked Trojan over a steel fastened Stephens. Aparently no one here has worked on either...... It was an example and a solid boat over a rotten one is better no matter what brand. I honestly can't believe the bad comments. It's a beautiful boat that is fully functional surveyed and insured? Let's not be brand bigots! A nice well maintained wooden boat is a nice wooden boat and a rotten boat is rotten no matter if it was the best boat ever made.

leop
01-25-2017, 06:26 PM
Yes a double planked Trojan over a steel fastened Stephens. Aparently no one here has worked on either...... It was an example and a solid boat over a rotten one is better no matter what brand. I honestly can't believe the bad comments. It's a beautiful boat that is fully functional surveyed and insured? Let's not be brand bigots! A nice well maintained wooden boat is a nice wooden boat and a rotten boat is rotten no matter if it was the best boat ever made.

Is she double planked on the bottom only, like a chris craft speed boat would have been? Or is all he planking doubled up?

Bob Adams
01-25-2017, 06:32 PM
Yes a double planked Trojan over a steel fastened Stephens. Aparently no one here has worked on either...... It was an example and a solid boat over a rotten one is better no matter what brand. I honestly can't believe the bad comments. It's a beautiful boat that is fully functional surveyed and insured? Let's not be brand bigots! A nice well maintained wooden boat is a nice wooden boat and a rotten boat is rotten no matter if it was the best boat ever made.

Words fail me.

Cogeniac
01-26-2017, 12:08 PM
A nice well maintained wooden boat is a nice wooden boat and a rotten boat is rotten no matter if it was the best boat ever made.


Which runs contrary to the observation that true wooden boat affcionados will pour millions into restoring a Herreshoff, but won't bother with a fiberglass production boat with blisters...or even "A nice well maintained wooden boat"...

http://www.rutherfordboats.com/page8/slideshow/index.html