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CK 17
01-07-2017, 09:43 PM
We're approaching 100 years of government developed and maintained aviation navigation.

I suppose celestial followed soon after since it was already in use by boats.

When I started we were well into electronic ground based navigation and inertial navigation.

now we're all children of the magenta line. .

https://s20.postimg.org/6hlkhncvx/image.jpg

more here

http://sometimes-interesting.com/2013/12/04/concrete-arrows-and-the-u-s-airmail-beacon-system/

amish rob
01-07-2017, 09:56 PM
Very cool. Thanks.

Peace,
Robert

Jimmy W
01-08-2017, 12:45 AM
I am now less than twenty miles from Lake Village. There was probably no beacon near there.


First Night Flight of Charles Lindbergh

In the acclaim for Charles Augustus Lindbergh following his solo trans-Atlantic flight in 1927, few people recognized the small but significant role Arkansas played in the historic event. Today, a modest monument off Highway 159 near Lake Village (Chicot County) marks the Arkansas site that contributed to one of the greatest stories in American history.

In April 1923, Charles Lindbergh was a young airmail pilot who had taught himself to fly. He had engine trouble on a flight between Mississippi and Houston, Texas, and landed near Lake Chicot in Lake Village, in an open space which was used as a local golf course. The nearest building was the clubhouse. The keeper, Mr. Henry, and his family sometimes used the building as an inn and extended their hospitality to the young pilot.

After repairing the plane (which had no instruments, radios, or other navigational tools), Lindbergh noticed the evening’s bright full moon and clear sky. In his book, We, Lindbergh said it was “an ideal night for flying” in the soft yellow moonlight, adding: “I decided to see what the country looked like from the air at night and jokingly asked my host to accompany me. For some reason, he had no fear of a night flight although I had been unable to persuade him to go up with me in the daytime. What his reaction would have been, had he known that I had never flown after dark before, is a matter of speculation.” They apparently had a brief but pleasant flight by moonlight over Lake Village and the Mississippi River, as Lindbergh’s host later remarked that evening that he had “never spent a more enjoyable quarter hour in his life.”
http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=2317#

http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/media/gallery/photo/lindy_monument1_f.jpg

Ian McColgin
01-08-2017, 01:13 AM
Nothing like looking out the window.

Total aside, when I was about twelve Dad gave me an E6B. With a little scale modification, I was able to use for sailboat piloting, easy solves time and distance, set and drift, tacking angles, and maximizing VMG. There were plenty of scales, like air density and stuff, as well that I didn't use on a boat and barely used during the my teen and early twenties when I did some flying.

CK 17
01-08-2017, 06:35 AM
I still have an E6B flight computer and tool kit (somewhere) from my B-727 flight engineer days. Up until recently, I wore a watch with the 2 outer rings of a flight computer on a moveable bezel. Not very practical as the print a bit small for my aging eyes, even with glasses.

Ian McColgin
01-08-2017, 07:54 AM
Ah, pilots and their watches.

I used to marvel at Dad's wrist modesty compared to the button and dial encrusted heavy monsters some pilots wore. Dad only cared about temporal accuracy. He had for decades one of the first Accutrons: one dial, three hands, no windows.

S/V Laura Ellen
01-08-2017, 10:59 AM
I can't get the link in post 1 to work.
Has anyone found the info.

katey
01-08-2017, 11:03 AM
And the Republicans want to privatize the FAA. No, I'm not kidding.

JamesCaird
01-08-2017, 11:18 AM
Yes, along the way many methods evolved. All navigation began with landmarks then efforts to make them more prominent. In air navigation the early fliers started having fires built on the ground to light their ways, then the concrete markers. We still have beacons at airports and I wonder when the Eiffel Tower got her rotating beacon. Then we got to early radio beacons then "beam" beacons then VOR's and NDB's and VORTAC's/DME's. Then loran and now GPS based. In the late 50's or 60's the big money started going inertial but it was initially heavy and expensive and needed some references for occasional corrections (I am talking submarine navigation now) All along we had celestial for long distance Nav which was adapted to Aviation with such things as the bubble sextant and precalculated tables. I still enjoy my sextant and my VOR's!!! but I sure use GPS. Navigation used to require considerable study , practice and skill. Flying and sailing still do in themselves but the navigation requires less skill, I think. For perspective, I can say that I have studied and replicated to some extent the methods of Capt. Worsley (Shackleton) and Fred Noonan (A. Earhart) to help understand what they were up against. I still sail and fly sometimes by the stars. (Place "Smiley" here) Cheers/ JC (and, Ha ha, still have my E6B!)

Dan McCosh
01-08-2017, 01:13 PM
Then there was buzzing a water tower to read the town's name, after following the railroad tracks to get there.

chas
01-08-2017, 02:28 PM
My father would use church steeples, a habit he developed in 1944.

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/F20WFC/france-calvados-basilica-of-st-therese-of-lisieux-one-of-the-largest-F20WFC.jpg

Later on he would use the lights at A+W to get lined up for YYG in bad weather. Always said navigation was never his strong point, but with over 38000 hours in his logbooks I suspect he knew a bit. :D / Jim

S/V Laura Ellen
01-08-2017, 03:20 PM
I was on a Mall Airways flight from Toronto to White Plains via Syracuse many years ago.
At one point in the flight the pilots were having an animated discussion about what highway they were flying over.
One of the pilots was looking at a NY road map with a flashlight.
Didn't instill a great amount of confidence among the 5 passengers.

CK 17
01-08-2017, 04:02 PM
I can't get the link in post 1 to work.
Has anyone found the info.
Google concrete arrows and airmail. There are several sites.

The Bigfella
01-08-2017, 04:22 PM
It didn't always work out the way it was intended

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/files/styles/fullsize/public/images/erebus-cross.jpg?itok=NkqXZg06

S/V Laura Ellen
01-08-2017, 05:33 PM
Google concrete arrows and airmail. There are several sites.

Thanks

CK 17
01-08-2017, 05:42 PM
It didn't always work out the way it was intended

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/files/styles/fullsize/public/images/erebus-cross.jpg?itok=NkqXZg06looks like a cold place to die. Is that the DC-10?

CK 17
01-08-2017, 05:52 PM
Yes, along the way many methods evolved. All navigation began with landmarks then efforts to make them more prominent. In air navigation the early fliers started having fires built on the ground to light their ways, then the concrete markers. We still have beacons at airports and I wonder when the Eiffel Tower got her rotating beacon. Then we got to early radio beacons then "beam" beacons then VOR's and NDB's and VORTAC's/DME's. Then loran and now GPS based. In the late 50's or 60's the big money started going inertial but it was initially heavy and expensive and needed some references for occasional corrections (I am talking submarine navigation now) All along we had celestial for long distance Nav which was adapted to Aviation with such things as the bubble sextant and precalculated tables. I still enjoy my sextant and my VOR's!!! but I sure use GPS. Navigation used to require considerable study , practice and skill. Flying and sailing still do in themselves but the navigation requires less skill, I think. For perspective, I can say that I have studied and replicated to some extent the methods of Capt. Worsley (Shackleton) and Fred Noonan (A. Earhart) to help understand what they were up against. I still sail and fly sometimes by the stars. (Place "Smiley" here) Cheers/ JC (and, Ha ha, still have my E6B!)
I would love to learn how to use a sextant someday. I know there's no real practical value where I sail (or fly). However, it can be argued there is a similarity to GPS :d

The Bigfella
01-08-2017, 05:55 PM
looks like a cold place to die. Is that the DC-10?

Yep. Wrong co-ords given to them and plugged into the system before takeoff. They weren't where they thought they were.... and whiteout conditions meant they couldn't see the mountain.

Iceboy
01-09-2017, 08:31 AM
Sorry Ian. That is Vince's cross just outside of McMurdo station. It commemorates a fella who drowned there in 1902. Flight 901 crashed on the other side of Erebus. I was there for the pick up.
It didn't always work out the way it was intended

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/files/styles/fullsize/public/images/erebus-cross.jpg?itok=NkqXZg06

The Bigfella
01-09-2017, 09:15 AM
Sorry Ian. That is Vince's cross just outside of McMurdo station. It commemorates a fella who drowned there in 1902. Flight 901 crashed on the other side of Erebus. I was there for the pick up.

Thanks for the info. I pulled it from an NZ history site IIRC, on the TE901 flight. I saw a detailed presentation on the pickup some years ago and the matching program that followed it. Tragic story from start to finish. You had a tough job there. Justice Mahon spoke to my MBA class about it with a focus on business ethics.

John of Phoenix
01-09-2017, 10:00 AM
I feel like a bit of an aviation pioneer. All we had for nav in Cobras was a WWII era ADF that we used to listen to AM radio stations. Nav was time/distance/heading using large scale tactical maps. "Fly 235 for 75 klicks, contact Python 16, on 43.5"

The E-6B flight computer, AKA the "Wiz Wheel" is basically a circular slide rule. We used it primarily to compute fuel consumption except on US based cross country flights when we'd use the wind correction feature. Primitive by modern standards.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/StudentE6BFlightComputer.jpg

Reynard38
01-09-2017, 10:41 AM
Still got my E6-B.
Many smaller and medium sized airports are abandoning ground based electronic nav systems in favor of GPS based approaches. Laguardia in fact has banned my airplane starting in March due to lack of GPS.
I see this happening more places and it saves the local airports serious $$ not having to maintain equipment.

As for me and I not in the least bit upset at being stricken from Lagarbage. :)

Paul Pless
01-09-2017, 10:48 AM
Even Spock used one.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1210/1196208122_310d2d69f6_z.jpg?zz=1

Ian McColgin
01-09-2017, 11:00 AM
Returning to America on a 44' ketch in '67 I was using an RDF. For real long distance I'd marked the transmitter locations of WWVA and WABC. So one day I found WWVA playing "My Mother Left Me Her Bible" or somesuch. Nulled and noted. Then I swung on WABC and got "Light My Fire". First song played long version on AM radio. Never heard it before. You can be I maxed, not nulled, for the whole song.

For those old enough to even know what nulling the RDF means, a bonus memory. We were so far out that to make a useful LOP I had to calculate departures.

amish rob
01-09-2017, 11:21 AM
Still got my E6-B.
Many smaller and medium sized airports are abandoning ground based electronic nav systems in favor of GPS based approaches. Laguardia in fact has banned my airplane starting in March due to lack of GPS.
I see this happening more places and it saves the local airports serious $$ not having to maintain equipment.

As for me and I not in the least bit upset at being stricken from Lagarbage. :)

Can you briefly explain the differences between the two systems? I kind of know what you guys mean, but not really.
I really enjoy this type of discussion.

Thanks all.

Peace,
Robert

Reynard38
01-09-2017, 11:48 AM
Can you briefly explain the differences between the two systems? I kind of know what you guys mean, but not really.
I really enjoy this type of discussion.

Thanks all.

Peace,
Robert



Normally an airport will offer 2 types of instrument approaches. Precision, and non precision. The precision variety, typically called an ILS (instrument landing system) have both lateral and verticle guidance provided by electronic "beams" from the airport. These will get you from 200 to maybe just 50 feet above the ground before you have to see something.

Non-precision approaches offer only the lateral component and have minimums (how low you can go without visual contact) typically around 350-450 feet.

There are visibility minimums too with both. The precision are much, much lower.

Both types have, until recently, required ground based transmitters at the airport. This equipment must be continually maintained and tested. With the advent of very precise GPS there are now non-precision GPS approaches. Some in fact offer minimums close to a precision approach for properly equipped aircraft and trained crews.

Of course for the airport and FAA the savings are huge! No equipment to maintain and continually test. Another big advantage is that the approach course can curve to avoid obstacles and restricted areas. This isn't possible woth a beam coming from the runway. Also of offers the possibility of increased separation of aircraft landing on adjacent runways so more operations can be handled in a given period of time.

amish rob
01-09-2017, 11:53 AM
Normally an airport will offer 2 types of instrument approaches. Precision, and non precision. The precision variety, typically called an ILS (instrument landing system) have both lateral and verticle guidance provided by electronic "beams" from the airport. These will get you from 200 to maybe just 50 feet above the ground before you have to see something.

Non-precision approaches offer only the lateral component and have minimums (how low you can go without visual contact) typically around 350-450 feet.

There are visibility minimums too with both. The precision are much, much lower.

Both types have, until recently, required ground based transmitters at the airport. This equipment must be continually maintained and tested. With the advent of very precise GPS there are now non-precision GPS approaches. Some in fact offer minimums close to a precision approach for properly equipped aircraft and trained crews.

Of course for the airport and FAA the savings are huge! No equipment to maintain and continually test. Another big advantage is that the approach course can curve to avoid obstacles and restricted areas. This isn't possible woth a beam coming from the runway. Also of offers the possibility of increased separation of aircraft landing on adjacent runways so more operations can be handled in a given period of time.

Whoa! Thanks a ton! I follow what you're talking about. Very interesting to me, though probably insanely boring stuff to y'all. :)
Can the airframes be upgraded? Can your plane, for example, be upgraded to the modern system, or will that require a whole new plane?
I have no idea how integrated that stuff is.

This is a cool thread.

Peace,
Robert

CK 17
01-09-2017, 02:51 PM
I feel like a bit of an aviation pioneer. All we had for nav in Cobras was a WWII era ADF that we used to listen to AM radio stations. Nav was time/distance/heading using large scale tactical maps. "Fly 235 for 75 klicks, contact Python 16, on 43.5"

still have a NDB (ADF)button in the A320. I'm gonna have to push it one of these days and see what happens :D
https://s20.postimg.org/f8t1vad4t/image.jpg

Iceboy
01-10-2017, 08:26 AM
I remember setting up some beacons in Antarctica. They were old mechanical clicker types driven by a small motor that spun a wheel that you would set a morse code 3 letter indicator. The wheel would turn and the transmitter contacts would be actuated by the settings kind of like the old clock timers. Antiquated but it worked in a cold environment.

Reynard38
01-10-2017, 09:40 AM
Whoa! Thanks a ton! I follow what you're talking about. Very interesting to me, though probably insanely boring stuff to y'all. :)
Can the airframes be upgraded? Can your plane, for example, be upgraded to the modern system, or will that require a whole new plane?
I have no idea how integrated that stuff is.

This is a cool thread.

Peace,
Robert

It could be upgraded. The question is for how much.
Friend of mine is having the same issues with a Piper Chieftan he just bought. Older airplane and avionics. Gonna run him anywhere from $50-100k to upgrade.
For the jet I fly I was told @ $3 million a copy. The airplane is probably worth that for parts, maybe.
Its a lot more than just installing a GPS unit. The new airspace system that is slated to arrive in 2020 (never gonna happen) Requires a host of other capabilities.

Airlines with the old jets will apply for, and get waivers. The individual airports will continue to ban old tech airplanes. Eventually the airlines will be forced to upgrade. My jet is supposed to start being retired this year, but we've got almost 200 of them.

Reynard38
01-10-2017, 09:44 AM
still have a NDB (ADF)button in the A320. I'm gonna have to push it one of these days and see what happens :D
https://s20.postimg.org/f8t1vad4t/image.jpg

PNS (Pensacola) is about the last NDB approach we ever see on my jet. If the weather is at minimums you'll never get in on it either. Too steep to be a stabilized approach.

Can the A320 fly a Localizer Back Course?

amish rob
01-10-2017, 11:04 AM
It could be upgraded. The question is for how much.
Friend of mine is having the same issues with a Piper Chieftan he just bought. Older airplane and avionics. Gonna run him anywhere from $50-100k to upgrade.
For the jet I fly I was told @ $3 million a copy. The airplane is probably worth that for parts, maybe.
Its a lot more than just installing a GPS unit. The new airspace system that is slated to arrive in 2020 (never gonna happen) Requires a host of other capabilities.

Airlines with the old jets will apply for, and get waivers. The individual airports will continue to ban old tech airplanes. Eventually the airlines will be forced to upgrade. My jet is supposed to start being retired this year, but we've got almost 200 of them.
Thank you very much. This is interesting stuff.
It neat to learn how planes operate.

Peace,
Robert

John of Phoenix
01-10-2017, 11:29 AM
Here ya go Your Highness.

This is an "Approach Plate" for a precision ILS (glideslope and lateral guidance) and a non-precision Localizer (lateral only) approach. LOTS of info on this but it gives you an appreciation of how complex instrument flying is. Keep in mind, this all happens at about 150 knots in an airliner (and a blistering 90 knots in a Huey).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fElkNeuKoh0

Another costly component of an ILS is the landing lights.

http://www.bahg.org.uk/images/BLEU/Rwy_Lts_slide_RW_S6.jpg

amish rob
01-10-2017, 11:38 AM
Holy Cow! John, thank you so much! Cool.

I live by an airport/airbase, so I see planes and helicopters coming and going, but I don't know anything about how it works. This is awesome!

I have said before somewhere here, but my FIL thinks the Cobra is the most beautiful bird in the world.:)

Peace,
Robert

CK 17
01-10-2017, 04:14 PM
PNS (Pensacola) is about the last NDB approach we ever see on my jet. If the weather is at minimums you'll never get in on it either. Too steep to be a stabilized approach.

Can the A320 fly a Localizer Back Course?
The only way I can think off is raw data. If I take that knob on the left and select rose LS, and HSI will come up.

Reynard38
01-10-2017, 04:29 PM
Same with the 88/90. Can do it in Arc or Rose mode, but have to use heading select. Not many BC approaches left. MKE maybe? Used to be one in DAB. Did one in POP (Puerto Plata Dominican Republic) one night. DME Arc to a LOC BC and THEN circle to land. Non radar and no tower.
Felt like I was back on my instrument checkride in a Cessna 172!

John of Phoenix
01-10-2017, 04:47 PM
I don't suppose you Airliner guys ever shot a GCA (Ground Controlled Approach) where the radar controller gives you heading and altitude instructions? It was the only reliable instrument approach we had in Vietnam.

"Slightly right of course, slightly above glideslope. Half-standard right turn. Stop turn. On course, on glideslope. Half mile to the runway threshold. On course, on glideslope. You should have the runway in sight. On course, on glideslope. You are at decision height. Report the runway in sight. On course, on glideslope. You are below decision height. On course, on glideslope."

"Tally ho the runway! Helluva job! Thanks a million."

Did one at night in the rain right down to 50 feet - literally a life saver.