Canoe repair begins

[Pernicious Atavist]

Hi, all! Okay, the long awaited repair on my E.M. White-style canoe is about to get underway. Here's the skinny:
-It was built for me by an old fellow about 10+ years ago in Holton, ME. It's cedar with a fiberglass, instead of canvas, skin. Thus, the outside is 'glassed and the inside is varnished.
-It's paddled and sailed mostly in salt water.
-Due to the glass, the wood doesn't have a chance to dry thouroughly and I expect is spends a lot of time damp. This is contributing to a lot of rot.
-As I cannot replace strakes, I have to stabilize them with epoxy, I expect. I've done that to a number of pieces and they are holding up well.
-I'm going to strip the entire interior, replace wales, and revarnish/recoat.
SO--the question is: What is the best material to use to preserve/stabilize the interior wood? CPES? Individual applications of epoxy?

Thanks!

Ed :cool:

[Dan Lindberg]

Ed,

Just curious, is this a rib and plank canoe that was glassed or a stripper (that didn't get the inner layer of glass?

If it's a rib/plank boat, why not remove the glass and put canvas on.

If it's only 10 years old, it doesn't sound like it's holding up too well.

Dan

[Wild Wassa]

PA, I'd be inclined to attack the rot with CPES. It isn't essential that all the surfaces be coated with CPES, apart from giving them a uniformity. I say this because I find CPES remains very flexible under epoxy and difficult to fair well. Where as epoxy is the bees knees (that means good?) over timber.

If the timber is not too salty looking (with lots of coloured bogs) another option after stripping is to use varnish, just primed with a thinned varnish. This is of course dependent on the look of the timber. This will add oil to the timber ... there is no looking back after thinned varnish (if it isn't over epoxy).

Was your canoe attacked by a falling tree? There was an interesting post awhile back.

Warren.

[Paul Scheuer]

If the ribs are mostly ok, replacing planking, or parts of planks, isn't a big deal.

If you havn't got the glass off, you'll probably find most of the damage in the ends, and/or the rails.

Replacing stems is not easy, but it is done.

You might want to go to WCHA.org, Wooden Canoe Historical Association. Lots of good advice there.

Got any pics ?

[Pernicious Atavist]

hi again,
it's a rib/plank type construction like the old canvas-covered boats, only that it's fiberglassed. the boards cannot be removed from the inside, obviously, so how do i remove the glass from the outside? several of the planks are dead, dead, dead...somewhat pithy, even, especially in the ends as one would expect.
no, it's the not the tree victim! it's a constant high humidity/hot weather/used all the time victim.

[Bruce Hooke]

What about using a router to cut out the problem planks from the outside? Another option might be simply sanding the cloth off in the problem areas. To put on new glass cloth over these areas you will probably need to taper down the edges of the adjacent cloth anyway.

If there is rot it has to go. Trying to "stablize" rot is a loosing battle.

It sounds like this construction technique has basically not held up very well.

Given that the outside of the hull is sealed you probably need to be very scrupulous in maintaining the interior finish so that water cannot get in from that side. What about sealing the inside with epoxy so the whole boat is encapsulated?

[NormMessinger]

Is there any chance of seeing pictures?

As to removing the glass from the outside, try a heat gun and stiff putty knife or something you can slip under the glass as the epoxy gets soft from the heat.

[Pernicious Atavist]

thanks! i'll send pics in short order.....

[Dan Lindberg]

Ed,

Too bad it was glassed, that usually destroys a W/C canoe.

Not many of the "pros" want anything to do with removing glass, espeshilly if epoxy was the resin used, lots easier to just build a new one.

Anybody here have experience removing epoxy resin with a heat gun?? One of my new projects was also glassed and it "looks" like it may be epoxy. Haven't decided yet whether to get rid of it or try to remove the glass/epoxy.

I'm told that the trouble with sanding it off is that the cedar under it is so soft that it's hard to stop the sander and gouges are sanded into the planking. (remember that the planking is usually only 5/32 thick.)

Dan

[NormMessinger]

"Anybody here have experience removing epoxy resin with a heat gun??"

Well... Okay, not over a large area but after the first couple of sq. in. it is just more of the same. After you get up a little you might be able to rip of bigger sections without the heat but be careful. If there is still a good bond you might rip out wood fibers. You are correct sanding hard stuff off soft stuff can cause undesireable results.

Have fun.

[Bruce Hooke]

My concern with the heat gun approach would be that I don't think you want to remove all the glass, right? So you need to not damage the stuff you are planning on keeping.

Since this boat was built new with a glass exterior that is a somewhat different situation from an old wood-canvas canoe that some fool glassed over.

So, am I right that at the end of this project you want to end up with a glass coating on the outside again?

Also, have you figured out how the water got into the cedar? If not I would look carefully at that aspect of the issue to make sure you don't have the same problem again in just a few years.

[paul oman]

Hi Guys

looks like all the forum experts are making their calls here.

I'm certainly not of their class, but what I would recommend would be to soak the 'soft' wood with anti-freeze (at topic in itself and lots of postings about this method) for most of the winter (after pulling out most of the really bad rot with a hook or screwdriver).

Then come spring, 3 coats of epoxy (first solvent thinned about 20 or 25%, second thinned about 10%, top coat thinned 0%. Finally 2 or 3 coats of varnish over the epoxy (first coat of varnish solvent thinned about 10 or 15%).

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

[Todd Bradshaw]

"Fool?" Hey wait a minute. I resemble that remark. I own a 34 year old, wooden Old Town Guide canoe which is sheathed outside with fiberglass and WEST epoxy and doing just fine, thank you. Old Town and some other companies like American Traders have been doing similar, non-canvas sheathing since the early 1970's and though with normal use and care the boat may not last as long as a wood/canvas construction, unlike the prevailing opinions, it is certainly not an automatic formula for instant self-destruction.

Do I prefer it to canvas covering? No. Is it easier to do than canvas? No, it's much trickier to do properly, but in itself, it isn't going to destroy the canoe. It does, however, require vigilant maintenance of the interior varnish and care that the boat doesn't sit for extended periods of time with water in the bilge. If P.A.'s boat is rotting out it can only mean that either: A- The construction and/or sheathing jobs were poorly done to start with or (and much more likely) B- The boat wasn't cared for properly. If you already have that much cedar rotting away, don't think for a minute that canvas instead of fiberglass would have saved the day and made everything hunky-dory. Cedar doesn't rot that quickly just because it's got a layer of fiberglass up against one side of it. There have to be other factors involved and poor varnish maintenance combined with sitting for long periods full of water are the most likely ones. The same treatment will have a similar effect on a canvas-covered canoe - maybe not quite as fast structurally, but it'll happen and by now you would still be looking at a major league refinishing/repair process.

The statement "Due to the glass, the wood doesn't have a chance to dry thouroughly and I expect it spends a lot of time damp. This is contributing to a lot of rot" may be far from the truth, but you would need to do some long-term testing to find out for sure. Canvas filler doesn't completely saturate canvas. The inside of the canvas skin (up against the planking) is still mostly raw cotton fiber, which is a wonderful and slow-drying wick for holding water. This is why wood/canvas canoes pick-up weight during a long trip. The question then becomes "What rots faster or dries slower - a chunk of cedar sealed on one side with epoxy or one which spends all of it's time up against an often water-soaked layer of cotton fabric, especially if it's salt-soaked, which feeds mildew and other nasty growing stuff?

As to removal/repair, this is a nasty, monster job. Heat is the way to go unless you're REALLY good with a big disk grinder and don't mind being itchy for about three days. I'd be damned sure the boat was worth the effort, and from the sound of it you might be better off investing that time and energy into something easier to restore.

[Pernicious Atavist]

todd (and others) thanks for the input! the boat was made of cedar 2x4 construction grade lumber, not the best stuff in any event. it kept the cost down and has done a relatively good job in spite of being wet almost all the time. i'm sure if i used it up north and in fresh water, it would be in much better condition. the boat is used--and wet, of course--once or twice a week, year-'round. none of this "in season" stuff down here! soak it with antifreeze for the winter? what winter?
most of the rot is in the ends, though several side planks are, and have been, on their way for some time. all this in spite of reasonably good care, etc.
the boat just doesn't get a chance to dry! i figured the 'glass was contributing to the damage, but i understand your explanation. but, it's a fact that it's wet and in high humidity and warm conditions all the time. i reckon the cedar just isn't up to the task for these conditions, especially if it's not the best grade....

[Todd Bradshaw]

Maybe it just needed more varnish from the start - because the wood shouldn't really be getting wet during normal use. My Old Town will get water in it when we launch and land, since we wade-in, but it certainly doesn't soak the wood. It just sits there in the bottom until you put the boat back on the car and then it drains out. Same with my cedar Greenland kayak paddles, which are carved from Home Depot 2x4's. They're in the water all afternoon and unless there is a chip in the varnish, they don't pick up any water. If you do have chipped varnish you can see the area around the chip change color as water soaks in, but the rest of the blade is fine.

[Pernicious Atavist]

well, it's looking like it's time for a new canoe. i like the fiberglass due to its ability to take a beating, especially under sail and in the sometimes rough conditions in which i sail, often 15+ knots. any recommendations?

[Bruce Hooke]

In my own defense regarding the "fool" comment, I was definitely NOT referring to new fiberglass covered rib & plank canoes (the point I was trying to make was that in fact this is a viable means for new construction) -- what I was trying to refer to was old wood-canvas canoes that someone tried to save by slapping some fiberglass on the outside without dealing with any of the underlying issues. I do think that "fool" is the right term for such a person. :D

[Dan Lindberg]

Hi Todd,

Good to read your comments again. BTW, I just got a "mate" to your good Guide. Mine was glassed and the tips under the glass are "missing". :(
It is a poor glass job.

Dan

[Todd Bradshaw]

P.A. -I don't believe you actually gain any real strength from glass sheathing instead of canvas. You may gain a little abrasion resistance, which is the premise which Old Town sold their "reinforced-plastic-covered" models under (suggesting that they were better for shallow, rocky streams) but the thin layer of glass doesn't seem to make the structure noticably stronger or stiffer. Even the abrasion resistance claim is up for debate as filled canvas is much tougher than one might initially think. It also makes future repairs and restoration much easier. By the time one would add enough glass to the outside to make a substantially stronger, stiffer structure, the sheathing layers would be starting to approach the layup thickness for a stand-alone fiberglass canoe and your boat would be 25-30 pounds overweight.

The strength and stiffness of most typically-built stripper and wood/canvas hulls seems to be adequate for almost any sailing conditions. Failures and problems are much more often due to weak gunwale/thwart systems. Wood canvas boats usually have pretty beefy gunwales and plenty of thwarts. Strip builders often thin out these parts to save weight and what works fine for paddling may not be able to stand up to the forces encountered when sailing.

As to design, most canoes that are good tripping and big-water boats make pretty good sailing canoes as long as they have decent maneuverability and good gunwale structure. Then there are all those old, decked, dedicated sailing designs with metal centerboards, many of which are really lovely. They would be very interesting building projects. I'm partial to this one. It's on my short-list of the most elegant boats that I've ever seen.

http://home.interlog.com/~timgitt/hist/hist_photos/thorell_ultra.jpg

[Doug Canada]

Greetings Pericious Atavist

There is a book that I'll recommend;

"The Wood & Canvas Canoe"
A complete guide to its history, construction, restoration and maintenance
by Jerry Stelmok & Rollin Thurlow
ISBN: 0-920656-49-8

All the best,
Doug

[Pernicious Atavist]

thanks todd, doug.

i want to stick to a "traditional" style boat, not a stripper. 16' is just right, but it does need stout wales. i beach the boat alot and think glass may be best since it'll take a beating better?

doug, i've had both of stelmock's books for some year now--great reads! not much help here, though, i'm afraid...

[Todd Bradshaw]

The prettiest 16 foot traditional wooden canoe that I can think of is the Rushton Indian Girl replica that Rollin Thurlow builds. It's not particularly beamy, but what a beautiful boat. I'm pretty sure that you could threaten to tie Rollin down and light him on fire and he still wouldn't build you one with a glass skin though. It's fairly pricy, too - but then again, some fiberglass sea kayaks cost more than his Indian Girl does, which seems totally crazy when you compare the amount of work involved.

http://www.wooden-canoes.com/gallery/indiangirl/pages/Copy%20of%201003.htm

Beaching durability is kind of a toss-up. A fiberglass skin may resist deep scratches and abrasion somewhat better than filled canvas, but probably by a lot less than most people think. Filler is pretty hard stuff and not very difficult to repair. If beaching involves impact resistance, either from actually hitting a rock or from stepping on a spot where the planking is sitting on a sharp rock, both versions will likely suffer the same type of damage. Glass on one side does little if anything to increase the impact resistance of the cedar planking between the ribs. Unlike the fiberglass/wood/fiberglass sandwich on a stripper's hull, the solo layer of glass on the outside of a sheathed rib and plank hull makes little difference in resistance to planking fractures when the force is applied from the outside inward.

The real difference is that the canvas cover can be removed every 20 years or so and any fractured ribs or planking replaced, followed by new canvas (or sometimes even replacement of the existing canvas if it's in good shape). As we've already seen with your present canoe, fixing damaged wood on a fiberglassed hull is a very different proposition. While I don't believe the fiberglass was the key factor in the self-destruction of your current boat, I also don't believe it's the answer you think it will be for your next one - and I own one built just like it.

In my case, I didn't have a lot of choice. My boat arrived in 1972 with a hidden split in the canvas which the people at Old Town had tried to hide by glueing a piece of Dacron sailcloth behind it and filling over the crack. Within about a year, the glue failed, the split opened-up and Old Town wanted half the price of a new boat plus $200 shipping to fix it.

Back then, there were no books on canoe recanvasing, no videos, no WCHA, no WoodenBoat Forum and Al Gore hadn't invented the Internet yet, so information was hard to come by. I ordered new canvas and filler which came with a one page instruction sheet. For stretching, it said "Stretch canvas until tight all around" - that was it! I tried two or three times by hand and finally gave up and glassed it. It was my first boat-fiberglassing experience and that didn't go too well either. So I ground it off with the big disk (how do you think I learned that as soon as the disk gets through the hard fiberglass it takes a big divit out of the soft cedar underneath before you can stop it - too bad there were no forums where somebody could have suggested using a heat gun).

The boat sat hacked-up in the garage for more than 25 years before I finally fixed it. I had to fair the entire outside with epoxy and microballoons, filling all the divits and little flat spots and at that point, epoxy coating and glass sheathing seemed to be the best way to tie everything together, so that's what I did. Had the cedar hull been fair without having to apply all that filler, it would have been recanvased, instead. I did manage to come out with a smooth, fair hull that's within about a pound of the original weight and the boat and holding up fine, but I sure wish they would have done the right thing when they originally split the canvas at the factory.

In the grand scheme of things, I think you'll find a much greater percentage of owners of rib and plank canoes that are glad their boats have canvas skins than of those who are glad their hulls are fiberglassed - and IMHO if buying a fiberglass-sheathed rib and plank canoe doesn't make you a little nervous, it's time to do more research on the subject.

[Pernicious Atavist]

thanks, todd! i agree, indian girl is a beautiful boat! i may just get one to paddle and keep this old beater for sail.

i think i'll do what i can with it for now--replace what wood i can, scrape old varnish, etc., apply liberal amounts of cpes, replace rails, and hope for the best. at the same time i'll redo the sailing rig as well. likely get a decent sail or two from you, too.

thanks all for the great inputs! i'll try to post pics soon...

ed :cool: