How does one lash?

[Sakari Aaltonen]

I'm building a small sailboat, the plans of which call for the shrouds (3mm wire) to be fastened to (ferruled) deadeyes on the gunwales by means of *lashing*. Apparently, this is the traditional way.

Can anyone explain what this means?

Thank you,
Sakari Aaltonen

[ 03-06-2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Sakari Aaltonen ]

[Ian McColgin]

You could have a number of things in mind here, but if you're talking dead-eyes:

This is a lash-up that takes the place of a turnbuckle.

Essentially, you have an eye splice or eye siezing at the end of the stay that surrounds a sort of tear shaped bit of rock hard wood with three holes nicely let into it - typically in a triangle pattern and the leads down channeled so the lashing lines run in a fair curve. Same kind of tear shaped thing at the chainplate. They are connected by the lashing line that can be adjusted.

Check old seamanship books or Leather's books for pix

G'luck

[Sakari Aaltonen]

I definitely need a picture of this. You wouldn't have a specific Leather title in mind? I did an Amazon book search for John Leather and got 58 hits...

Sakari Aaltonen

[Don Maurer]

"The Markinspike Sailor" by Hervey Garrett Smith shows it pretty well.

[John of Phoenix]

A picture of deadeyes.

http://www.pragdata.com/philboat/boat0234.jpg

And a link to a brief discussion. http://www.pragdata.com/philboat/ConDeadeye.html

Hope this helps.

[NormMessinger]

Would one use dead eyes on a small sailboat? I considered it but my trusted advisors here talked me out of it. I would have thought lashing might mean simpling passing a small line round and round through a shackle on the chain plate and an eye in the end of the shroud.

[Sakari Aaltonen]

The deadeyes I'm talking about are also called fairleads; the Ronstan part number is RF59. They are let into the gunwales. So they do not appear to be the big things that John Teetsel's picture shows. Besides, are there not chainplates in the picture? My boat's deadeyes, I understand, are meant to be used *instead* of chainplates.

Then again, I have trouble visualizing the tear-shaped pieces of wood Ian McColgin mentions. And their use.

Sakari Aaltonen

[casem]

How small is the boat? On my 15' boat, as per advice from J.Dillon, I just use two or three wraps of line from the chainplate to a thimble in the shoud and secure it with a few half hitches. It's worked geat for one full season so far. When I take down the mast I just undo one of them so as not to affect the position of the mast.

[John of Phoenix]

This is a picture of the part you refer to.

http://images.shipstore.com/ss/images/RON/RONRF59.JPG

From what you describe, this fairlead is suppose to take the place of the chainplate. They are attached to the gunwale and the 3mm wire is run through them and then secured by "lashing". If I undestand correctly, your question is how to "lash the wire" so it is secure.

Take a look at this link. http://www.bosunsupplies.com/NicopressSwage.cfm

It will give you one idea on how to secure the wire. My questions are, "How do you plan to adjust the shrouds? How will they be released from the fair leads to take the mast down?"

[ishmael]

Ah, something I actually know about.

Forget the deadeyes. This arrangement is precisely what I have on my Drascombe Lugger.

A small piece of low stretch dacron (3/16?), three strand, is eyespliced on to the end of the shroud, which has its own eye, made with a nicro press fittings in my case (could be spliced), with a thimble. When you go to lash it, it reeves a number of times through a fitting similar to what John shows, and back up through the eye on the shroud, and then the end is tied with at least two half-hitches around the resulting kitten of line.

I think I used all those term right. ;)

I'll look for a graphic.

[ishmael]

Not postable, but here is a link.

http://www.aozc64.dsl.pipex.com/Manual/fig5.gif

[Ian McColgin]

I had in mind a tear shaped version (to fit the splice better) of the wooden round dead-eyes in the photo.

I see from the link that your question involves a somewhat similar modern and light variation. No reason it won't work if the fairlead is well attached. This is a small boat trick.

G'luck

[martin schulz]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Would one use dead eyes on a small sailboat?Why would anybody mind if one uses deadeyes? I think they are pretty practical and take a lot of strain from the wires. I saw a wooden boat that had the "classic arangement" with wires and turnbuckles, but the owner turned the screws too tight. And the strain with no place left to go (stainless turnbuckle and wire-shrouds) pressed the keel away from the planking.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid51/p77543a025248d0310e8f335510c6d924/fca54fd7.jpg

[N. Scheuer]

Hey, John T.! Those deadeyes in your photo look very much like the set I made for our Shearwater Yawl.

Originally the shroud thimbles were lashed to the chainplate loops with five or six turns of three-strand Dacron line.

Moby Nick

[Ed Nye]

Sakari,
What I believe you are being asked to do is lash the stays to their attach point. It is a very common way of rigging a small boat in Britain. It is sort of like looping a piece of line several times through the eye in the stay and a shackle. Sort of like the picture with the deadeyes, but without using them. Need someone "from over there" to explain it to you. In the US you almost always use small turnbuckles.
Ed

[casem]

The link Ishmael posted is what I was trying to describe (except I have actual chainplates; whatever, its just a loop connected to the boat). On my boat, I wouldn't change it for turnbuckles, even if I had the extra $90 to spend.

[N. Scheuer]

Hi Ed Nye:

Did not know that lashed shrouds were so common in the UK.

My deadeyes (similar to those appearing in a photo above) are largely aesthetic. People often inquire wherther my 28 ft yawl, a Shearater built by Edey & Duff, was home-built, and they were often looking at the lashed shrouds when asking. I thought that feature needed some improvement in appearance.

Moby Nick

[Sakari Aaltonen]

I was away for a week - excuse the late reply. I believe Ishmael's picture shows what is intended. Trouble is, I don't know how to put a thimble on stainless steel wire. Does one need a Nicopress thing for this? Or are shrouds-with-thimbles something one is supposed to buy ready-made?

Sakari Aaltonen

[ishmael]

Or are shrouds-with-thimbles something one is supposed to buy ready-made? No. There should be a length given in your plan. If not, a matter of trial and error. There are impermanent cable clamps you can use to experiment with.

The typical fitting here would be nicro-press. Fancy word for a sleeve that crimps and holds the eye in the wire. Needs a special tool.

Get to know some small boat builders. smile.gif And before you crimp, practice twice--well, at least once.

[martin schulz]

Originally posted by ishmael:
[QBThe typical fitting here would be nicro-press. Fancy word for a sleeve that crimps and holds the eye in the wire. Needs a special tool. [/QB]Pressed wire is crap - do it the traditional way and splice the wire. It's even easier than splicing rope. Stainless-steel wires are harder to splice since they tend to slip, but I wouldn't recommend stainless-steel wires anyway. "Normal" iron shrouds will do fine if covered with linseed-oil moisted cloth and wrapped with tightly applied whipping twine.

(did I use those technical terms correctly?)

[ishmael]

Pressed wire is crap In the grand scheme of things you are right and wrong. It works fine.

Webb Chiles sailed his stock Drascombe Lugger 3/4 of the way around the world without a rigging failure. Through many a harrowing fright. Of course a splice is stronger and better looking, but the nicro-press works, and is easy. And marginally weaker.

[ 03-04-2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Ian McColgin]

I too preferr spliced, but Grana shall not have spliced rigging ends untill her rebuild. At the moment, she still has the nicro-press terminals she was fitted with about 25 years ago.

Hard to complain.

[John of Phoenix]

BTW this $170 WestMarine swagging tool is available at Home Depot for less than $50.

http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/02643_f.jpg

[Sakari Aaltonen]

I went to a boating equipment store today and found something which would seem to obviate the need for swaging, nicropress, etc. It's called a wire lock, at least here.. The wire goes through it, around the thimble, and back again through the lock which is then tightened with a screw - the wire is squeezed between the. two metal halves of the "lock."

Sakari Aaltonen

[Ron Hotchin]

Actually, I find lashing with a Cat-of-Nine-Tails briskly applied usually does wonders for the motivation of the crew. Either that, or tell them there's no time off until morale improves! :D

[ishmael]

Sakari,

I'd only consider the removable cable clamp you mention as a temporary measure for tweaking the length of the shrouds. But...I have seen them used. A friend built a catamaran of his design and used them because they were cheap. He sailed it from Maine to somewhere around Delaware on the east coast of the US and back without a rigging mishap. Lots of other things broke but the cable clamps held. 'Course, he also navigated using maps from the National Geographic. Odd fellow Chad.

If you use the clamps, double or treble them.

Jack

[Plum]

Over here in Britain, as Ed Nye correctly pointed out, the use of rope lashings for standing rigging on small boats is common. This pdf file at the Classic Marine website has a table in it that shown how many turns of line you should use. http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/Backstays.PDF.