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David G
10-06-2016, 11:00 AM
Steve Kerr has long been one of the brightest, most thoughtful minds in basketball. It's nice to see him make carefully considered comments on the notion of peaceful protest --


“I understand people who are offended by his stance,” he said (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cs6F7UGUkAA3Iew.jpg). “Maybe they have a military family member or maybe they lost someone in a war and maybe that anthem means a lot more to them than someone else. But then you flip it around and what about non-violent protests? That’s America. This is what our country is about. It’s a non-violent protest.”


http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2016/10/5/13157902/nba-2016-golden-state-warriors-coach-steve-kerr-colin-kaepernick-police-killings

Jim Bow
10-06-2016, 11:09 AM
How did a protest about the treatment of African Americans become connected with supporting the military?

John of Phoenix
10-06-2016, 12:42 PM
I'm fine with Kaepernick's protest. It truly is All American. I just hope he does more than protest.

Bob Adams
10-06-2016, 12:53 PM
How did a protest about the treatment of African Americans become connected with supporting the military?

The connection is they are using the national anthem to protest. This is an insult to many who served in the military.

David G
10-06-2016, 12:55 PM
The connection is they are using the national anthem to protest. This is an insult to many who served in the military.

That would be incorrect.

It is true, however, that some ignorant folks - unclear on the founding principles - choose to TAKE it as an insult.

Bob Adams
10-06-2016, 12:58 PM
Forgot to add....the disrespect is particularly painful to those who have lost loved ones in the service of their country.

WoodyHuscarl
10-06-2016, 01:00 PM
Voltaire, with my parenthetical additions: I disapprove of what you say (I think it isn't the right way to protest), but will defend to the death your right to say it.

The right to free expression is guaranteed by the Constitution, which I swore on several occasions to support and defend. Personally I stand at attention for the playing of any nations' Anthem, out of respect to them as a Sovereign Country. For ours, I also render a hand salute.

Tom Wilkinson
10-06-2016, 01:29 PM
Forgot to add....the disrespect is particularly painful to those who have lost loved ones in the service of their country.

I thought this is exactly what they were fighting for. That's what we are told repeatedly, that our soldiers are fighting for our freedom. If that's true he shouldn't have a problem exercising that freedom.

delecta
10-06-2016, 01:52 PM
The only thing he is fighting for is his job, pitiful.

David G
10-06-2016, 01:55 PM
The only thing he is fighting for is his job, pitiful.

Well... something is pitiful, for sure. Deplorable, even.

Bob Adams
10-06-2016, 02:01 PM
I thought this is exactly what they were fighting for. That's what we are told repeatedly, that our soldiers are fighting for our freedom. If that's true he shouldn't have a problem exercising that freedom.

OK, no one denied them the freedom to do it. May I say I find it in piss poor taste?

WoodyHuscarl
10-06-2016, 02:08 PM
OK, no one denied them the freedom to do it. May I say I find it in piss poor taste?

See Voltaire quote, above.

David G
10-06-2016, 02:32 PM
OK, no one denied them the freedom to do it. May I say I find it in piss poor taste?

You may make any judgement you wish to, and you can give voice to that thought. You have that right. And you can be chided for your ignorance and your thin-skinned, wrong-head, divisive, anti-constitutional views. We have that right.

The question is: which opinion is backed up by the Constitution and established law? For that... you can take or word. Or you can do your own research. Or you can cling to your opinion with disregard for the facts of the matter.

B_B
10-06-2016, 03:02 PM
I'm fine with Kaepernick's protest. It truly is All American. I just hope he does more than protest.
Well he's donated a $1,000,000 and 100% of his jersey royalties (best selling jersey in the NFL) to help engender better police/community interaction. That's worth something.

He's also inspired the 49ers to match (http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-colin-kaepernick-49ers-donation-20160908-snap-story.html) his $1,000,000 donation.

And he's inspired Chip Kelly, (http://deadspin.com/chip-kelly-backs-colin-kaepernick-terrible-columnist-f-1786966547) who left Philiadelphia under a cloud of racial allegations, to give a nicely nuanced statement of support, even going so far as to put stoopid sports columnist Lowell Cohn, who doesn't like Kaepernick's actions, in his place.

What've you done lately? ;) :D

Bob Adams
10-06-2016, 03:29 PM
You may make any judgement you wish to, and you can give voice to that thought. You have that right. And you can be chided for your ignorance and your thin-skinned, wrong-head, divisive, anti-constitutional views. We have that right.

The question is: which opinion is backed up by the Constitution and established law? For that... you can take or word. Or you can do your own research. Or you can cling to your opinion with disregard for the facts of the matter.

When I hear the anthem my mind goes to flag draped caskets and grieving families. It goes to legless veterans who struggle stand on prosthetic legs during the song. I wonder what M.L.King would have done, there are other ways to protest. I did not question this guy's right to do what he did, I do no see where I made any anti constitutional statements. You do not know me sir. I did not resort casting aspersions about you or any other forumites character.

David G
10-06-2016, 03:52 PM
When I hear the anthem my mind goes to flag draped caskets and grieving families. It goes to legless veterans who struggle stand on prosthetic legs during the song. I wonder what M.L.King would have done, there are other ways to protest. I did not question this guy's right to do what he did, I do no see where I made any anti constitutional statements. You do not know me sir. I did not resort casting aspersions about you or any other forumites character.

So you're choosing option C. So be it.

You are welcome to let your mind go where it will when the anthem is played.

There are some, apparently, who have less unalloyed reactions. Their mind also goes to black men who have for centuries gone off to fight for their country, only to return from their service greeted by ugly discrimination. To this day. And - just as you express your true feelings about the anthem... the country... they are expressing their true feelings as well.

Apparently due to ignorance of the issues, and the constitution, you have chosen to misinterpret that expression as an 'insult' to veterans. You couldn't be more wrong.

They have the right to express their feelings in that fashion. At least you acknowledge that much. We fought the Revolutionary War to ensure it. And a few wars since. And blacks and whites together faced fire hoses, dogs, clubs and guns to attempt to claim that constitutionally-guaranteed right is honored for people of all colors. We're not there yet... and they are reminding us of that fact. Making that reminder is a constitutionally approved, constitutionally guaranteed, right. When you pizz&moan about it... you are pizzing&moaning about the constitution. And, by attempting to make this about veterans, you are ignoring what it is they actually are saying with their protest.

Character? I said nothing about your character. I said your misguided beliefs are unfortunate. Maybe that expresses some underlying character flaw... but if so, I made no mention of it, nor reference to it.

Bob Adams
10-06-2016, 04:50 PM
Ok, just where the hell am I demonstrating ignorance of the constitution? Also,I suspect some would consider calling someone ignorant and thin skinned would be saying something about character.

B_B
10-06-2016, 04:52 PM
When I hear the anthem my mind goes to flag draped caskets and grieving families. It goes to legless veterans who struggle stand on prosthetic legs during the song. ...

Some people think differently. Francis Scott Key for example.


Oh, say can you see by the dawn’s early lightWhat so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
O’er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o’er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
‘Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war’s desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav’n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust.”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!


To understand the full “Star-Spangled Banner” story, you have to understand the author. Key was an aristocrat and city prosecutor in Washington, D.C. He was, like most enlightened men at the time, not against slavery; he just thought that since blacks were mentally inferior, masters should treat them with more Christian kindness. He supported sending free blacks (not slaves) back to Africa and, with a few exceptions, was about as pro-slavery, anti-black and anti-abolitionist (http://www.theglobalist.com/francis-scott-key-and-the-slavery-question/) as you could get at the time.Of particular note was Key’s opposition to the idea of the Colonial Marines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_of_Colonial_Marines). The Marines were a battalion of runaway slaves who joined with the British Royal Army in exchange for their freedom. The Marines were not only a terrifying example of what slaves would do if given the chance, but also a repudiation of the white superiority that men like Key were so invested in.

All of these ideas and concepts came together around Aug. 24, 1815, at the Battle of Bladensburg, where Key, who was serving as a lieutenant at the time, ran into a battalion of Colonial Marines. His troops were taken to the woodshed by the very black folks he disdained, and he fled back to his home in Georgetown to lick his wounds. The British troops, emboldened by their victory in Bladensburg, then marched into Washington, D.C., burning the Library of Congress, the Capitol Building and the White House. You can imagine that Key was very much in his feelings seeing black soldiers trampling on the city he so desperately loved.

A few weeks later, in September of 1815, far from being a captive, Key was on a British boat begging for the release of one of his friends, a doctor named William Beanes. Key was on the boat waiting to see if the British would release his friend when he observed the bloody battle of Fort McHenry in Baltimore on Sept. 13, 1815. America lost the battle but managed to inflict heavy casualties on the British in the process. This inspired Key to write “The Star-Spangled Banner” right then and there, but no one remembers that he wrote a full third stanza decrying the former slaves who were now working for the British army:
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.



In other words, Key was saying that the blood of all the former slaves and “hirelings” on the battlefield will wash away the pollution of the British invaders. With Key still bitter that some black soldiers got the best of him a few weeks earlier, “The Star-Spangled Banner” is as much a patriotic song as it is a diss track to black people who had the audacity to fight for their freedom. Perhaps that’s why it took almost 100 years for the song to become the national anthem.

Read the last paragraph again (“The Star-Spangled Banner” is as much a patriotic song as it is a diss track to black people who had the audacity to fight for their freedom) and tell me why you presume to tell black folk to respect it.

delecta
10-06-2016, 05:05 PM
Ok, just where the hell am I demonstrating ignorance of the constitution? Also,I suspect some would consider calling someone ignorant and thin skinned would be saying something about character.

I would say it's being rude, that is par for the course with DG. I would press the button and he might be banned for the tenth time for being .......rude. :)

Or you can just ignore his small hands and move on.....it seems this is his only outlet......sometimes being kind to some is the appropriate action.

Bob Adams
10-06-2016, 05:05 PM
I know a bit about the song, it was written 2 miles from where I sit. The last stanza is not used and most don't even know it or the 2nd ever existed. If they were sung you'd be right. My country is flawed but I love it, and those who fought for it.

Bob Adams
10-06-2016, 05:06 PM
I would say it's being rude, that is par for the course with DG. I would press the button and he might be banned for the tenth time for being .......rude. :)

Or you can just ignore his small hands and move on.....it seems this is his only outlet......sometimes being kind to some is the appropriate action.

Never pushed the button....never will.

delecta
10-06-2016, 05:12 PM
Never pushed the button....never will.

I pushed it once, didn't make me feel better.....but rest assured if you get out of line DG and his ilk will push it on you.

David G
10-06-2016, 07:07 PM
I pushed it once, didn't make me feel better.....but rest assured if you get out of line DG and his ilk will push it on you.

That's IT. Since you have no evidence that I've EVER reported anyone... I'd say this attack on my character is rude. I'm mashing the button. :rolleyes:

B_B
10-06-2016, 08:50 PM
I know a bit about the song, it was written 2 miles from where I sit. The last stanza is not used and most don't even know it or the 2nd ever existed. If they were sung you'd be right. My country is flawed but I love it, and those who fought for it.
Regardless of whether they're sung or not, the fact remains that the prejudices that inspired the second stanza still exist today. Protesting the prejudices, by not honouring a song written to celebrate them, makes immense sense.

Protesting in a way most whitey's find acceptable won't lead to change:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

David G
10-06-2016, 09:17 PM
“I understand people who are offended by his stance,” he said (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cs6F7UGUkAA3Iew.jpg). “Maybe they have a military family member or maybe they lost someone in a war and maybe that anthem means a lot more to them than someone else. But then you flip it around and what about non-violent protests? That’s America. This is what our country is about. It’s a non-violent protest.”

hokiefan
10-07-2016, 06:10 PM
Virginia Tech's football coach Justin Fuente had the following to say about players who may want to join Kaepernick in his protest. Basically, lets find a way to do more than just protest, lets find a way help the cause. So far I really like the guy, both his coaching and what I've heard him say about life in general.


"I have a lot of thoughts on a lot of different topics, first of all," Fuente said. "That's what I'd tell ya. I'm not always gonna share with all of you all and I hope you respect that because there's a lot that comes with standing up and voicing your opinion. Doesn't mean I don't have one. Whether it's the national anthem or some other cause, whatever it is, I would hope that our kids would want to come to me and talk about those things and figure out a way to genuinely help whatever cause it is that they feel strongly about.

"Give us the opportunity to discuss how it is that they can help that cause. Knowing that I'm gonna support them in their stance and what they truly believe in, but also, let's find a way to help that cause that maybe can help our football, or not cause huge distractions for our football team. (That) is the way I would hope that that got handled if it ever came up for us."

David G
10-08-2016, 09:19 AM
Good for him. But let's remember... Colin K. got the conversation started this round. At some risk to his reputation. Even to his career, coming as it did at a time when his role on the team is up in the air. He deserves kudos. As do all those who have recognized the substance behind his acts, and have supported him in various ways.

David G
09-23-2017, 01:19 PM
Just a reminder --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21686319_1861396863876310_1146204353166625149_n.jp g?oh=27be3d200fbdef930af2e0887c45c1b3&oe=5A5C7738

TomF
09-23-2017, 01:49 PM
When I hear the anthem my mind goes to flag draped caskets and grieving families. It goes to legless veterans who struggle stand on prosthetic legs during the song. I wonder what M.L.King would have done, there are other ways to protest. I did not question this guy's right to do what he did, I do no see where I made any anti constitutional statements. You do not know me sir. I did not resort casting aspersions about you or any other forumites character.
There is where different experience comes in. I hear the anthem and think of hockey games. Of the countlesd times it has played at University graduations, as well as at ceremonies honouring sacrifices in war.

That is,as with you, my life experience has layered on the meanings that are more prominent for me in those melodies. And I personally don't want to give more prominence to those who fought, or to what it is that they fought for. The one ought to highlight the importance of the other, each direction.

sandtown
09-23-2017, 02:19 PM
Please do not write as if veterans in general agree that people should stand for the anthem.

I'm a Vietnam veteran who is adamately opposed to showing respect for the torture state, or for the office of the President.

Stop the torture, prosecute those that orchestrated or permitted it, and THEN we can talk about respecting that flag.

Jim Bow
09-23-2017, 02:24 PM
I know a Viet Vet Green Beret platoon leader who sits during the anthem and stands when the play "Take Me Out To The Ball Game". He doesn't ever give a specific reason, just that he has a right.

LeeG
09-23-2017, 03:08 PM
I really don't get the mixing of patriotic images and rituals with sports.

stromborg
09-23-2017, 03:20 PM
I don't either, but then I am also perplexed by the need to endlessly repeat the process of standing up and saying the "Pledge of Allegiance".

LeeG
09-23-2017, 03:43 PM
I don't either, but then I am also perplexed by the need to endlessly repeat the process of standing up and saying the "Pledge of Allegiance".

In elementary school I had been saying it every day for six years and for sixth grade civics we had to recite it individually along with the preamble. First time I tried to recite it solo I honestly forgot the lines. It wasn't stage fright, I had been switching my mind off all those times and didn't realize it.

skuthorp
09-23-2017, 03:48 PM
I regard national anthems et al as nationalistic, jingoistic, emotional propaganda, always have.
Being a slave to that convention is no measure at all of one's regard for one's country.

The Gentleman Sawyer
09-23-2017, 04:51 PM
I don't either, but then I am also perplexed by the need to endlessly repeat the process of standing up and saying the "Pledge of Allegiance".



It's called political socialization. I learned about it in civics class as a HS freshman back in 1972.

Ken


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LeeG
09-23-2017, 04:57 PM
Good ol Donald, dignifying the office, again.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/basketball/41373916

skuthorp
09-23-2017, 05:25 PM
Hmm, 'the Office' may never recover, and it's likely will never be the same.

SMARTINSEN
09-23-2017, 06:34 PM
The national anthem belongs to everyone, veterans have no special claim to it.

As pointed out it is explicitly racist, it being buried in the last verse notwithstanding. The tune was stolen from the British, and no one has ever been able to sing it since Whitney Houston*.

Time to retire it, Pete Segar is much better.

LeeG
09-23-2017, 06:43 PM
More for two scoops tangents


https://boingboing.net/2017/09/23/lelandmelvin.html

Garret
09-23-2017, 07:30 PM
More for two scoops tangents


https://boingboing.net/2017/09/23/lelandmelvin.html

Powerful statement.

LeeG
09-23-2017, 08:01 PM
Cognitive dissonance on aisle 12 for patriotic sports fans


https://thinkprogress.org/nba-nfl-responses-to-trump-49853b7ef4ca/amp/

LeeG
09-23-2017, 08:37 PM
http://q13fox.com/2016/09/16/entire-seattle-high-school-team-kneels-during-national-anthem-before-game/

LeeG
09-23-2017, 11:50 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41376317

The NFL Players' Association said the president had crossed a line by effectively telling players to just "shut up and play".
Association president Eric Winston said Mr Trump's comments were "a slap in the face to the civil rights heroes of the past and present".

skuthorp
09-24-2017, 01:00 AM
He's not doing himself any favours is he?

Primary (grade) school kids would do better.

wizbang 13
09-24-2017, 09:40 AM
Who died for our freedom since ww2 ?

Osborne Russell
09-24-2017, 09:44 AM
The connection is they are using the national anthem to protest. This is an insult to many who served in the military.

But not to all. Not to me. I consider it to be the exercise of the rights I was protecting. Otherwise I would have been just another hired killer.


A common and natural result of an undue respect for law is, that you may see a file of soldiers, colonel, captain, corporal, privates, powder-monkeys, and all, marching in admirable order over hill and dale to the wars, against their wills, ay, against their common sense and consciences, which makes it very steep marching indeed, and produces a palpitation of the heart. They have no doubt that it is a damnable business in which they are concerned; they are all peaceably inclined. Now, what are they? Men at all? or small movable forts and magazines, at the service of some unscrupulous man in power? Visit the Navy-Yard, and behold a marine, such a man as an American government can make, or such as it can make a man with its black arts- a mere shadow and reminiscence of humanity . . .

-- Thoreau, Civil Disobedience

Dave Lesser
09-24-2017, 10:38 AM
The connection is they are using the national anthem to protest. This is an insult to many who served in the military.

I served in the Air Force for 30 years to protect his right to protest.

Rigadog
09-24-2017, 10:40 AM
I hope every player takes a knee this afternoon to protest the detestable clown who occupies the Presidency. Maybe it's time for all the living ex-presidents to step forward and make a public statement asking him to resign. Enough is enough...

Joe (SoCal)
09-24-2017, 11:15 AM
'To Donald Trump,' by Leland Melvin, former NASA Astronaut and NFL Player

https://boingboing.net/2017/09/23/lelandmelvin.html

johnw
09-24-2017, 12:34 PM
David Frum‏Verified account @davidfrum (https://twitter.com/davidfrum)Follow

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A great way to show respect for the flag is to refuse offers of clandestine election assistance from hostile foreign espionage agencies

9:41 AM - 23 Sep 2017



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McMike
09-24-2017, 01:54 PM
The connection is they are using the national anthem to protest. This is an insult to many who served in the military.

False equivalency. The National Anthem does not have anything to do with the military, neither does the flag. Nationalism, fascism, totalitarianism, will all have you focus on a symbol, the swastika for instance, or the stars and stripes. Freedom, democracy, equality, these are all ideas supported by The Constitution of the United States of America, The Bill of Rights, and The Declaration of Independence. These are the ideas that our soldiers fight and die for. Our country was founded on decent. Decent is the American way; to decry or deny someone their right to protest is un-American.

Trump is trying to, and succeeding in, dividing us. This is insidious, he's trying to start a civil war.

Chris Coose
09-24-2017, 02:05 PM
SCROTUS is a very dangerous person. He is the one to be out of a job for his beliefs. Racist SOB.

johnw
09-24-2017, 02:20 PM
Federal employees are not supposed to be trying to get people fired for their political beliefs.

PhaseLockedLoop
09-24-2017, 02:52 PM
Federal employees are not supposed to be trying to get people fired for their political beliefs.

The presidency is a political office, for chrissake. The guy is not supposed to be non-partisan. One hopes, of course, that he or she will not be a crass, tangle-headed lout. A forlorn hope nowadays.

stromborg
09-24-2017, 03:14 PM
Yes the presidency is a political office, however the person who holds that office represents the "Government". The point of the First Amendment to our Constitution is to protect "the people" from harassment by said government for political speech.

LeeG
09-24-2017, 08:28 PM
“It’s hard to believe that I’m going to say something about the most powerful man in the greatest country in the world, but probably like a lot of you, I was somewhat surprised that the President—the President of the United States came out attacking NFL players for them exercising the Freedom of Speech.

While I don’t condone the protesting during our National Anthem, THIS IS AMERICA!

If our country stands for anything, folks, what—it’s freedom. People died for that freedom. I’m not sure if our president understands those rights—that every American has the right to speak out, and also to protest.

Believe me—these athletes DO love this great country of ours.

Personally, I think our president should concentrate on serious issues like North Korea and healthcare rather than ripping into athletes and the NFL.”

-Terry Bradshaw

Arizona Bay
09-24-2017, 08:50 PM
Maybe y'all should review this... maybe read it to President Dotard?


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette )West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette )319 U.S. 624 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_citation) (1943), is a decision by the (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette )Supreme Court of the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States) holding that the (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette )Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution# Freedom_of_speech) protected students from being forced to salute the (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette )American flag (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States) and say the (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette )Pledge of Allegiance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance) in school. The Court's 6–3 decision, delivered by Justice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette )Robert H. Jackson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Jackson), is remembered for its forceful defense of free speech and constitutional rights generally as being placed "beyond the reach of majorities and officials." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette )


The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.



If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

Chris Coose
09-24-2017, 08:59 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKfvD2cXoAAXie2.jpg
My grandpa is a 97 year-old WWII vet & Missouri farmer who wanted to join w/ those who #TakeaKnee: "those kids have every right to protest." pic.twitter.com/LurCj7SLUB

Garret
09-24-2017, 09:09 PM
Interesting point:


NFL players only started appearing on field for the national anthem in 2009

Late last month, as the country was only just becoming consumed by Colin Kaepernick, Tom E. Curran of Comcast Sportsnet New England reported that, actually, NFL players did not typically stand for the national anthem until 2009. Somehow this escaped many of us until, uh, Stephen A. Smith highlighted it this morning on First Take.
Responding to a tip from one of his "boys," Smith brought up the fact that until 2009—eight years and a new Presidential administration after 9/11—players weren't on the field for the national anthem and instead generally remained in the locker room. According to Smith's boy (and the researcher at ESPN who checked it), the switch happened "because it was seen as a marketing strategy to make the athletes look more patriotic."



https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/yp89dj/stephen-a-smith-points-out-nfls-paid-patriotism-problem
(https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/yp89dj/stephen-a-smith-points-out-nfls-paid-patriotism-problem)

(https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/yp89dj/stephen-a-smith-points-out-nfls-paid-patriotism-problem)http://dailysnark.com/nfl-teams-didnt-stand-national-anthem-2009/


A 2015 congressional report revealed that (http://dailysnark.com/nfl-teams-didnt-stand-national-anthem-2009/)the Department of Defense had paid $5.4 million (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/15611052/nfl-returning-723000-taxpayers-paid-military-tributes) to NFL teams between 2011 and 2014 to stage on-field patriotic ceremonies; the National Guard shelled out $6.7 million for similar displays between 2013 and 2015.
(http://dailysnark.com/nfl-teams-didnt-stand-national-anthem-2009/)

skuthorp
09-24-2017, 11:00 PM
the switch happened "because it was seen as a marketing strategy to make the athletes look more patriotic."

the Department of Defense had paid $5.4 million (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/15611052/nfl-returning-723000-taxpayers-paid-military-tributes) to NFL teams between 2011 and 2014 to stage on-field patriotic ceremonies; the National Guard shelled out $6.7 million for similar displays between 2013 and 2015.

The Department of Propaganda is alive and well in the good old USA. Same reason politicians like sports stars for photo ops.
I suppose Brass bands and Chocolate Soldier (its an old musical) uniforms don't cut it any more.

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/476314/Chocolate-Soldier-The-Movie-Clip-My-Hero.html

Osborne Russell
09-25-2017, 09:42 AM
The presidency is a political office, for chrissake. The guy is not supposed to be non-partisan. One hopes, of course, that he or she will not be a crass, tangle-headed lout. A forlorn hope nowadays.

Flat wrong. The president, along with everyone in government, takes an oath to be non-partisan.

Osborne Russell
09-25-2017, 09:44 AM
My grandpa is a 97 year-old WWII vet & Missouri farmer who wanted to join w/ those who #TakeaKnee: "those kids have every right to protest." pic.twitter.com/LurCj7SLUB

Tell 'em grandad.

David G
09-25-2017, 10:10 AM
Flat wrong. The president, along with everyone in government, takes an oath to be non-partisan.

I love how many people are willing to argue, most definitively and authoritatively, without actually bothering to find out the facts. Not tentatively. Not with caveats. No "Isn't it true that...".

I'd love it if folks would bolster their arguments with research... instead of bluster, bombast, and bs.

Flying Orca
09-25-2017, 10:48 AM
"it was seen as a marketing strategy to make the athletes look more patriotic."

Bwahahahahahahaha! Sports fans are such suckers.

But it appears to have worked. Hard to believe how upset some people are over this Kaperwhatsit guy.

Joe (SoCal)
09-25-2017, 02:09 PM
John Legend's Essay in Slate on this issue is well thought out

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/trials_and_error/2017/09/john_legend_on_why_the_nfl_protests_are_patriotic. html


Protest is patriotic. Protest has played a critically important role in elevating the voices of the most vulnerable in our nation. Protest in America has been essential to ending war, to demanding equal rights, to ending unfair practices that keep citizens marginalized. If we quell protest in the name of patriotism, we are not patriots. We are tyrants.

johnw
09-25-2017, 02:36 PM
The presidency is a political office, for chrissake. The guy is not supposed to be non-partisan. One hopes, of course, that he or she will not be a crass, tangle-headed lout. A forlorn hope nowadays.

So, you think he should be trying to get people fired for their political beliefs?

StevenBauer
09-25-2017, 03:58 PM
I just saw that after trump called for an NFL boycott the NFL had the highest ratings yesterday that they've had in 7 years. Another instance of the country rejecting trump. Bigly sad dotard.

John of Phoenix
09-25-2017, 04:11 PM
Will someone please forward these to SCROTUS -

Oath of Office -
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Amendment I -
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Might want to highlight these parts - "Defend the Constitution" & "Peaceably assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

TomF
09-25-2017, 04:12 PM
They might fit on a pair or tweets.

David G
09-25-2017, 04:37 PM
Will someone please forward these to SCROTUS -

Oath of Office -
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Amendment I -
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Might want to highlight these parts - "Defend the Constitution" & "Peaceably assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

And there it is in a nutshell.