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David G
10-05-2016, 11:11 AM
As Trump and his advisers have argued, it is normal practice in our society to pay as little in taxes as possible. There are vast industries to help people do this. There is no wrong here.

The problem with the taxpayer mentality is that you end up serving your individual interest short term but soiling the nest you need to be happy in over the long term.

A healthy nation isnít just an atomized mass of individual economic and legal units. A nation is a web of giving and getting. You give to your job, and your employer gives to you. You give to your neighborhood, and your neighborhood gives to you. You give to your government, and your government gives to you.

If you orient everything around individual self-interest, you end up ripping the web of giving and receiving. Neighbors canít trust neighbors. Individuals canít trust their institutions, and they certainly canít trust their government. Everything that is not explicitly prohibited is permissible. Everybody winds up suspicious and defensive and competitive. You wind up alone at 3 a.m. miserably tweeting out at your enemies.

And this is exactly the atomized mentality that is corroding America. Years ago, David Foster Wallace put it gently: ďIt may sound reactionary, I know. But we can all feel it. Weíve changed the way we think of ourselves as citizens. We donít think of ourselves as citizens in the old sense of being small parts of something larger and infinitely more important to which we have serious responsibilities. We do still think of ourselves as citizens in the sense of being beneficiaries ó weíre actually conscious of our rights as American citizens and the nationís responsibilities to us and ensuring we get our share of the American pie.Ē

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/04/opinion/trump-taxes-and-citizenship.html?smid=pl-share&_r=0

Jim Mahan
10-05-2016, 12:18 PM
As Trump and his advisers have argued, it is normal practice in our society to pay as little in taxes as possible. There are vast industries to help people do this. There is no wrong here.

There is nothing wrong with tax avoidance. Tax evasion is a felony, and immoral.

David G
10-06-2016, 09:57 AM
There is nothing wrong with tax avoidance. Tax evasion is a felony, and immoral.

Well... we have no evidence of tax 'evasion' by Trump. With his 'pirate' persona... it's not inconceivable... but so far it's just 'avoidance'. And perfectly legal. The article is more about the morality and social utility.

Ian McColgin
10-06-2016, 12:05 PM
It is simply not true that these - well they are much larger than loopholes - tax avoidance schemes are something that God provided and that it's silly, indeed immoral, not to use them.

Given the expensive efforts that large corporations and individual malefactors of great wealth have exerted to create avenues for "tax avoidance", tax avoidance is simply legalized tax evasion.

Norman Bernstein
10-06-2016, 12:12 PM
Actually, it's really even worse.

Last night, on one of the talk shows, the guest was a tax expert who explained a great deal MORE about the infamous $916M that Trump wrote off.

It seems that until 2002, there was a MONSTROUS loophole in the tax code. It permitted real estate developers (specifically, and no one else) to actually write off losses that were not the real estate developers' own money! According to this guy, it was a consequence of a badly worded section of the tax code.

Seems hard to believe, doesn't it? It is highly unlikely that Trump actually lost $916M of his OWN money.... but he could easily have lost $916M, through bad deals and investments, of other people's money, namely, banks and financial institutions.

This loophole was challenged and made it all the way to the Supreme Court... and the court agreed that the provision, no matter how outrageously odious and unfair, actually supported the loophole. So, in 2002, Congress fixed this particular loophole... but not until AFTER Trump was able to take advantage of it.

So, in addition to obviously being a bad businessman, Trump was the beneficiary of being able to write off OTHER people's losses, on his OWN tax return.

delecta
10-06-2016, 02:04 PM
There is no such thing as a "loophole" only poorly written laws. Calling it a loophole somehow makes those utilizing those laws as scum to satisfy your need to have a "bad guy" Change the laws or shut up, anyone with a brain can see exactly what you're trying to accomplish.

The comical part is that there was probably a team of high priced liberal lawyers that pointed the way.

Ian McColgin
10-06-2016, 02:15 PM
Yep. Forces of reform versus every crackpot single taxer who ever lived versus forces of concentrated wealth. A three way fight where only one party has a clue as to what it really wants.

Really, just look back on this Forum every time tax law changes are mooted, and that's just people who don't really know. Imagine the legislative arguments with special interests and ignorance all competing with wishful thinking. Tax law in an incredible challenge because you need diverse forms of tax to equitably deal with the diverse forms of wealth, because there are legitimate social interests served by certain forms of tax deduction, and because it's always a moving target as tax avoiders figure how to skirt the latest law.

Norman Bernstein
10-06-2016, 02:26 PM
There is no such thing as a "loophole" only poorly written laws.

You can call it whatever you want. I never said it was illegal, and 'loophole', whether you like it or not, is the commonly accepted term. Yes, the law was written badly.... and Trump drove his truck right through it. It was a legal move....

....but you haven't heard him say it was wrong, and that the law should be changed, have you? He hasn't admitted that the $916M 'loss' wasn't his money.

Osborne Russell
10-06-2016, 02:35 PM
There is no such thing as a "loophole" only poorly written laws. Calling it a loophole somehow makes those utilizing those laws as scum to satisfy your need to have a "bad guy" Change the laws or shut up, anyone with a brain can see exactly what you're trying to accomplish.

The comical part is that there was probably a team of high priced liberal lawyers that pointed the way.

The bad guys put the laws in under the noses of the distracted and deluded rabble with a team of high priced conservative propagandists pointing the way.

Tom Montgomery
10-06-2016, 02:46 PM
The interesting thing to me about Donald Trump's tax avoidance is that it was made possible when he LOST AN UNBELIEVABLE amount of money.

And we are supposed to swallow the assertion that he is a genius businessman. Puhleeze. :rolleyes:

Osborne Russell
10-06-2016, 02:50 PM
And this is exactly the atomized mentality that is corroding America. Years ago, David Foster Wallace put it gently: ďIt may sound reactionary, I know. But we can all feel it. Weíve changed the way we think of ourselves as citizens. We donít think of ourselves as citizens in the old sense of being small parts of something larger and infinitely more important to which we have serious responsibilities. We do still think of ourselves as citizens in the sense of being beneficiaries ó weíre actually conscious of our rights as American citizens and the nationís responsibilities to us and ensuring we get our share of the American pie.Ē


"Ensuring we get our share of the pie" is precisely the wrong idea.

There has always been tension between civic virtue and self-interest. This nation was established to give people the chance to choose civic virtue, i.e. the liberty to do the right thing. A citizen is a beneficiary in the sense of having been bequeathed that choice. That's your share. You should fall to your knees in gratitude for having been given such a priceless thing. If people choose something else, they can * off and die.

Choosing self-interest used to be a matter of shame.

biga
10-06-2016, 02:52 PM
does anyone in here think trump fills out his tax returns? he pays HIGHLY educated accountants to do that for him. he also gets audited EVERY YEAR. so if he's not in jail already, that means either he is the best accountant ever, or your precious government that you trust to run every aspect of your lives is too stupid to catch his tax cheating. pick one.

RonW
10-06-2016, 03:01 PM
does anyone in here think trump fills out his tax returns? he pays HIGHLY educated accountants to do that for him. he also gets audited EVERY YEAR. so if he's not in jail already, that means either he is the best accountant ever, or your precious government that you trust to run every aspect of your lives is too stupid to catch his tax cheating. pick one.

Common sense eludes the left......that is why the dem party has simple one liners......

Besides the dems from the early 20's till the late 80's wrote the tax laws including all the loop holes for their friends that paid them......

Tom Montgomery
10-06-2016, 03:08 PM
This is one liberal who does not think Donald Trump is a tax cheat. His tax breaks appear to be within the law.

But this liberal absolutely thinks Donald Trump is a lousy businessman who routinely fails, declares bankruptcy, stiffs his creditors, and arises phoenix-like from the ashes to repeat the the cycle. All within the law, of course. The law is an a$$. As are the financial institutions that continue to enable this charlatan.

TomF
10-06-2016, 03:09 PM
I figure that Trump's accountants are as smart as most billionaire's accountants. That they more than recoup their fees in the taxes they save their clients. I've never said that Trump's tax filings did anything illegal, just that they might say things he would prefer weren't known by Joe Sixpack. Things which make Joe Sixpack realize that Trump actually is one of the 1%, and has gamed the system like all the other 1% guys do.

Besides, the tax returns might show that Donald and his tax accountants have ... well ... aggressively stretched the truth in what public statements have been made about Trump's finances, philanthropy, wealth and losses. That just perhaps, the "truthiness" of some of Trump's lines on the political circuit aren't being discounted as much as they oughta be.

Together, such things might make him a less attractive guy to vote for, eh? Might make a guy on the edge of bankruptcy himself, with no safety net, think again.

RonW
10-06-2016, 03:17 PM
TomF -
That just perhaps, the "truthiness" of some of Trump's lines on the political circuit aren't being discounted as much as they oughta be.

You mean like this....



https://youtu.be/wbkS26PX4rc?t=28

Norman Bernstein
10-06-2016, 03:39 PM
does anyone in here think trump fills out his tax returns? he pays HIGHLY educated accountants to do that for him. he also gets audited EVERY YEAR. so if he's not in jail already, that means either he is the best accountant ever, or your precious government that you trust to run every aspect of your lives is too stupid to catch his tax cheating. pick one.

I'm certain he didn't cheat.

I'm certain that he hires very expensive, and very smart, accountants, to do his taxes.

I'm certain that the use of every possible loophole in the tax law is NOT any indication of Trump's supposed 'genius'.... it's just another indication that he lies to take credit for other people's achievements... like taking credit for Pence's performance at the VP debate.

RonW
10-06-2016, 03:41 PM
Lies, lies, lies, and more lies, don't it just make you sick.......



https://youtu.be/wbkS26PX4rc

Norman Bernstein
10-06-2016, 03:42 PM
Lies, lies, lies, and more lies, don't it just make you sick.......


Do you think that posting the video twice means it has twice the impact?

Are you REALLY just 12 years old? :):):)

Hugh Conway
10-06-2016, 03:43 PM
There is no such thing as a "loophole" only poorly written laws. Calling it a loophole somehow makes those utilizing those laws as scum to satisfy your need to have a "bad guy" Change the laws or shut up, anyone with a brain can see exactly what you're trying to accomplish.

The comical part is that there was probably a team of high priced liberal lawyers that pointed the way.

If the poorly written law reach's the supreme court - which this did - it's fair to call it a loophole. If closing the loophole is a bipartisan vote, it might said it was being used by scum.

RonW
10-06-2016, 03:44 PM
Do you think that posting the video twice means it has twice the impact?

Are you REALLY just 12 years old? :):):)

I was thinking that you didn't see it the first time......after all you didn't comment on it.......It is a shame the way these politicians lie......watch the video.......

RonW
10-06-2016, 03:47 PM
Clinton Foundation files three years of missing tax forms ,


The newly filed 2014 return and amended returns for the previous three years break out “speech revenue” on a separate line and categorize it as a payment for a service, not a donation.
The figures show speech-related payments to the foundation totaled about $1.1 million in 2010, dropped slightly to about $980,000 in 2011, before ticking up markedly to nearly $1.5 million in 2012 and $1.8 million in 2013--and then doubling in 2014.
However, those sums are still just a fraction of what the Clintons made personally on speeches in recent years. Hillary Clinton pulled in almost $10.5 million in speaking fees last year, while her husband made $9.7 million, before expenses, according to tax returns that Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign released in April.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/clinton-foundation-refiles-tax-returns-215959#ixzz4MLsl18cd
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook

Norman Bernstein
10-06-2016, 03:49 PM
I was thinking that you didn't see it the first time......after all you didn't comment on it.......It is a shame the way these politicians lie......watch the video.......

I saw it the first time, and if you want my reaction, here it is:

1) It's a collection of quotes out of context. For example, the number of emails which allegedly contained classified information: how many were received by HRC, versus sent? Secondly, how many were classified after the fact?

2) Hillary Clinton has apologized for the email issue, has clearly stated she was wrong. There is no one in this entire earth that hasn't made mistakes in their life... but the better ones acknowledge their mistakes, and apologize for them.

What mistakes has Trump made, in life? What has he apologized for? I want a human being in the white house, not a superman... and Trump ain't no superman. If he doesn't have the humility to acknowledge that he's imperfect, and has made mistakes in life, then he's not even a Christian, let alone a decent human being.

RonW
10-06-2016, 03:54 PM
I saw it the first time, and if you want my reaction, here it is:

1) It's a collection of quotes out of context. For example, the number of emails which allegedly contained classified information: how many were received by HRC, versus sent? Secondly, how many were classified after the fact?

2) Hillary Clinton has apologized for the email issue, has clearly stated she was wrong. There is no one in this entire earth that hasn't made mistakes in their life... but the better ones acknowledge their mistakes, and apologize for them.

What mistakes has Trump made, in life? What has he apologized for? I want a human being in the white house, not a superman... and Trump ain't no superman. If he doesn't have the humility to acknowledge that he's imperfect, and has made mistakes in life, then he's not even a Christian, let alone a decent human being.

Well let's see............

1 - the FBI lied on poor hillary to make her look bad.....

2 - Hillary has apologized for her incompetency....

3 - Hillary shouldn't be held to the same standards as other's...........even if it involves national security...

Norman Bernstein
10-06-2016, 03:55 PM
Clinton Foundation files three years of missing tax forms ,

Do you even bother to READ the stuff you referenced? First of all, there were NO 'missing tax returns', so that part is a straight-out lie.

You posted this like there was some sort of malfeasance, or crime.... and there wasn't. Nothing, nada, zilch, just a voluntary refiling of a tax return. No accusation of ANYTHING....

...and the speeches that HRC and WJC made, privately, and for money, is just that.... their right to capitalize on their celebrity... something which is the ONLY think Donald Trump does.

Norman Bernstein
10-06-2016, 03:57 PM
2 - Hillary has apologized for her incompetency....

Hillary apologized for her mistake of judgment. When you can propose to me that the 'other guy' NEVER makes mistakes of judgment, then we just might have something to talk about.

RonW
10-06-2016, 04:26 PM
Hillary apologized for her mistake of judgment. When you can propose to me that the 'other guy' NEVER makes mistakes of judgment, then we just might have something to talk about.

Let's see if we have this just about right......

1 She jeopardizes national security by her incompetency .

2 when she gets caught she lies about it.

3 - she gets caught lying.

4 - she apologizes for the screw up and lying about it.

5- liberals think she should be promoted to president for apologizing .

6 - The truth surfaces that she isn't incompetent, but did it on purpose to hide the fact of selling the office of secretary of state the same as they did with the lincoln bedroom.

Is that just about it .......I know I left a lot out ...

AnalogKid
10-06-2016, 04:33 PM
So your nation is founded on the principle that there should be no taxation without representation, and now there is a distinct possibility that the nation will be represented by someone who doesn't pay taxes.

Perhaps the experiment has gone a little too far...

Norman Bernstein
10-06-2016, 04:35 PM
So your nation is founded on the principle that there should be no taxation without representation, and now there is a distinct possibility that the nation will be represented by someone who doesn't pay taxes.

Perhaps the experiment has gone a little too far...

Point well taken.

delecta
10-06-2016, 04:54 PM
I'm quite sure Trump pays many taxes, perhaps not to the federal government due to the laws that are in place but to say he doesn't pay taxes is an out right lie. Anyone know how much real estate tax he paid last year.......? I wouldn't be surprised if it's a few hundred dollars, at least.

Norman Bernstein
10-06-2016, 04:56 PM
I'm quite sure Trump pays many taxes, perhaps not to the federal government due to the laws that are in place but to say he doesn't pay taxes is an out right lie. Anyone know how much real estate tax he paid last year.......? I wouldn't be surprised if it's a few hundred dollars, at least.

I'm sure he pays lots of taxes... just not income taxes.

He undoubtedly pays many of the taxes that the right wingers usually ignore when they talk about poor people who don't pay income taxes... when, in fact, they ALSO pay lots of taxes.

Jim Bow
10-06-2016, 06:54 PM
Andrei Codrescu, a poet and teacher who escaped from Romania in the 60s and became an American, once said he viewed paying his taxes here was more like paying membership dues in a great club to which he wanted to belong.

Damn, that's a long sentence.

John Smith
10-06-2016, 07:03 PM
This is one liberal who does not think Donald Trump is a tax cheat. His tax breaks appear to be within the law.

But this liberal absolutely thinks Donald Trump is a lousy businessman who routinely fails, declares bankruptcy, stiffs his creditors, and arises phoenix-like from the ashes to repeat the the cycle. All within the law, of course. The law is an a$$. As are the financial institutions that continue to enable this charlatan.

My problem is minor. He should not say "our" tax money is being spent........as he has no skin in that game.

David Cay Johnston (thanks guys) theorized a bit further. Since this big loss is now known, that would be no reason to continue to not release his tax returns. His theory, and it's just a theory is that the numbers Trump supplied the IRS may not be the same numbers he gave those he wanted to borrow money from.

That could be his dilemma. Meanwhile, IMO, anyone who votes for someone who does not release his tax returns is a fool. Some may not like that sentence, I can't see how one can argue with it

John Smith
10-06-2016, 07:07 PM
TomF -

You mean like this....



https://youtu.be/wbkS26PX4rc?t=28

Don't you get tired of beating this long dead horse? Put the whole think in context, and he testified NONE of the emails were properly marked as containing classified data. She authored NONE of them. Why aren't those who originated them, and failed to mark them properly, being investigated?

John Smith
10-06-2016, 07:09 PM
Well let's see............

1 - the FBI lied on poor hillary to make her look bad.....

2 - Hillary has apologized for her incompetency....

3 - Hillary shouldn't be held to the same standards as other's...........even if it involves national security...
Why don't you want Powell investigated? Or Rice, or G.W. or Cheney, or Jeb?

This dead horse is long since buried.