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ron ll
09-15-2016, 11:56 AM
I'm currently removing the bullnose trim from the pilot house top so I can re roof it with plywood, glass and epoxy. I need to save the bullnose as a lot of it is curved and difficult (for me) to build anew. The fasteners in the bullnose are counterbored flathead iron screws with a slotted 1/2" diameter head. First, even large hand screwdrivers these days have narrow blades, and forget about finding a 1/2" wide screwdriver blade for a power drill. I had a little bit of luck on a couple of them with a hammer drill, but even in reverse that is actually hammering the screw back in while trying to back it out. Out of frustration I ended up using a multimaster to plunge cut behind the bullnose and thru the screw. That of course leaves an old iron stump right where the new screw needs to go when reassembling. I have three sides off and the fourth side yet to go today.

And then someone at coffee this morning mentioned a brace and bit.
...
Well, duh. I have two old braces that I haven't used in probably thirty years. Not only do they have a nice flat pad for leaning my chest into and a big leverage advantage, they also have a wider screwdriver blade bit. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm optimistic that it will at least be a much better attempt than yesterday's mess. Yes, I know, many boat builders often use a brace and bit, but I got sucked into only trying to think of modern tools to solve my problem. I'll report back.

Jay Greer
09-15-2016, 12:09 PM
I often use a brace with a screwdriver bit for removing old fastenings. In fact it is my tool of choice for this operation, often saving irreparable damage. Gripping the brace at the base of the crook usually works better than torquing from the handle. I also use a jewler's graver to carve out the slot in the screw head. A graver will cut the sides square and prevent the bit from camming out. I also use a Yankee Screwdriver for less impacted fastenings. With the Yankee it is possible to torque with the ratchet on click but not using the driver screw. This is one place where hand tools are, defiantly, superior to power tools.
Jay

nedL
09-15-2016, 12:15 PM
Both my brace and bit and Yankee screwdrivers have gotten a good workout over the past couple of years on my current project. Good tools that everyone should have.

ron ll
09-15-2016, 12:18 PM
I've been using an ice pick for cleaning the slot which doesn't really square the slot very well. Wonder where I can find a jeweler's graver this morning. Or is there a Dremel bit that would do it?

cstevens
09-15-2016, 12:45 PM
At risk of being mocked for using the wrong tool for the job, I've found this type of scraper to be useful for that task:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/MBkAAOSwcu5UNM-0/s-l300.jpg

Also helpful for clearing out any remnants of the bung if needed. I'm sure there is a more wooden-boat appropriate option though, and if so I'd love to know about it!

ron ll
09-15-2016, 12:52 PM
At risk of being mocked for using the wrong tool for the job, I've found this type of scraper to be useful for that task:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/MBkAAOSwcu5UNM-0/s-l300.jpg

Also helpful for clearing out any remnants of the bung if needed. I'm sure there is a more wooden-boat appropriate option though, and if so I'd love to know about it!

Hey! I've got one of those.

ahp
09-15-2016, 01:09 PM
I have found that hand tools, like the brace and bit, and hand plane, that I inherited from my father provide much better control that the power tools. I do use power tools for many jobs however.

ron ll
09-15-2016, 01:14 PM
New problem; thought I had a screwdriver bit for the brace, can't find it and no one seems to carry them anymore. I wonder if I could make one from an old spade bit or something.

cstevens
09-15-2016, 01:18 PM
Ron, I don't think this will help you today but take a look at this link:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=32300&cat=1,180,42337

Lee Valley has an adapter bit that will let you use a standard 1/4" hex bit in a brace. And now I really want one!

ron ll
09-15-2016, 01:21 PM
Ron, I don't think this will help you today but take a look at this link:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=32300&cat=1,180,42337

Lee Valley has an adapter bit that will let you use a standard 1/4" hex bit in a brace. And now I really want one!

Yes I saw that. The problem is that 1/4" hex bits are all pretty narrow blades. Still might be a handy thing to have. Might be time for a trip to Hardwick's this morning. If anybody will have it, they will.

WoodyHuscarl
09-15-2016, 01:22 PM
My dad was helping build a cabin on one of the State parks here in Wisconsin. This was in the early days of cordless tools. He'd brought along a small Yankee drill, and a larger Yankee screwdriver. Some of the cordless guys chided him about them. But after an hour or two those guys were out of battery, and were forced to use Armstrong screwdrivers; while my dad just kept going: shoot a pilot hole, shoot a screw.

I inherited a lot of his tools, and use them at least weekly. Brings back fond memories, and I think the tools appreciate it too.

Jay Greer
09-15-2016, 01:33 PM
In a pinch, I would buy the narrowest chisel available and carefully grind the sides to fit the slots. It won't be as keen as a graver but will work. Note that only a cutting tool that is dead nuts square on the bottom will work for this job. This is a process of getting a secure metal to metal fit between the bit and slot and then slowly applying the torque by hand. The reason a power driver is not as good is that it usually cams out of the slot by applying too much torque too fast.
Jay

cstevens
09-15-2016, 01:36 PM
Hardwicks. Haven't been there in a while. Such very pretty things... Definitely report back on your trip if you go. Also looks like you can find larger-sized socket flathead bits that would work with the 3/8" square drive adapter. Tacoma Screw might have them.

cstevens
09-15-2016, 01:37 PM
In a pinch, I would buy the narrowest chisel available and carefully grind the sides to fit the slots.

There you go. That's what a professional would do. I'll take my scraper and sit in the corner now...

Edward Pearson
09-15-2016, 01:46 PM
If i have a piece of wood with a centerline marked front and back, and i want to ensure my exit drill hole comes out exactly in line, beside partially drilling out the rear (to also reduce breakout) and eyeballing it did anyone ever make a drill or brace attachment that adjusts to pinpoint where the drill point is projecting that can be lined up on the back?

Peerie Maa
09-15-2016, 01:48 PM
I've been using an ice pick for cleaning the slot which doesn't really square the slot very well. Wonder where I can find a jeweler's graver this morning. Or is there a Dremel bit that would do it?

Grind a small file to shape, just be careful not to draw the temper. A big fat handle would improve it, as you will be pushing with the palm of your hand, but a sole leather palm could substitute for one.

Bob Cleek
09-15-2016, 02:07 PM
A small dental burr chucked into a Dremel tool will do a good job of cleaning out screw slots full of hardened glue. A small dental chisel (like a jeweler's graver,) or even a simple brad awl, will then easily clean out the corners. This operation will give you a whole new appreciation for slotted screw heads. If you are dealing with Phillips, Frearson or Robertson screw heads, you have my sympathy!

The specialty mechanics' hand tool companies such as Snap-On and Matco carry extensive lines of screwdriver bits, at least up to 7/16", with hex shanks and on sockets which can be attached to standard socket drivers for the same effect as a brace and screwdriver bit. In fact, these are more flexible in tight spots than a traditional brace and bit, since they can be used with all the extensions and handles commonly used by mechanics.


http://public.snapon.com/R_RRD/Objects_lg/images/F62E2.jpg

http://public.snapon.com/R_RRD/Objects_lg/images/TM82.jpg

Jay Greer
09-15-2016, 02:11 PM
If i have a piece of wood with a centerline marked front and back, and i want to ensure my exit drill hole comes out exactly in line, beside partially drilling out the rear (to also reduce breakout) and eyeballing it did anyone ever make a drill or brace attachment that adjusts to pinpoint where the drill point is projecting that can be lined up on the back?
I use a set of drafting circle templates that will accept a transfer punch. Simple to hold the template on center and fit the punch in.
Jay

ron ll
09-15-2016, 02:27 PM
Okay. Here's my score from Hardwicks. The two driver blades are a full 3/8" wide and the cold chisel has an 1/8" square tip, although it's not square, but rather cut at an angle so that the longest side is a point which I think can clean each side of a slot. If not, I can grind it down.

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r560/ron_ll/BF1733F4-6766-43A6-BD2B-B5F30AFE7014_zpsbknv4w6i.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r560/ron_ll/16A8972C-FECE-4F1A-BC8E-D3EDD594DF3E_zpskc1qzzbo.jpg

cstevens
09-15-2016, 02:41 PM
Very nice Ron. I'm going to have to pay a visit to Hardwicks soon myself to pick up a few things for my cabin refastening project. I'll need to work to constrain myself to the shopping list.

Jim Ledger
09-15-2016, 02:55 PM
Big-assed screwdrive bit...


http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?163912-Big-assed-screwdriver-bit&highlight=

John B
09-15-2016, 03:03 PM
In a similar vein, I make sure I have a big square shank screwdriver for these jobs. You put something on the handle to lean on and a big crescent on the shank for a lever.

ron ll
09-15-2016, 03:12 PM
I think I'll order that adapter from Lee Valley, Chris Hardwick was aware of it but didn't stock it. Tho the long shaft blade chucks up okay in the brace, not sure it's tight enough to take the required torque. But I'm looking forward to reinstalling the bullnose with stainless square drives using the hand brace.

Also, if this last round of ideas doesn't work for removing the screws, I'll just cut the bullnose off and take out the screws with vice grips. The only sections left are straight which is easy to make new. My big worry was saving the steam bent curves which I've already successfully done.

cstevens
09-15-2016, 03:32 PM
Sounds like a plan. And on that subject, what's the bullnose made of? Someday I want to make an identical piece for Petrel. Might be my first foray into steam bending although I've been thinking that I might try the hot-water-and-towels method first since the curves on Petrel are not as extreme as the corners on Snoose.

ron ll
09-15-2016, 03:45 PM
The bullnose is white oak, about 1-1/2" x 7/8" (it varies a little). The straight sections are easy to rip and take the corners off on a table saw. Then I do the final rounding with a big round over bit on a router table. I tied bending one with the hot towels one time, not really successful. And steaming should be done hot at the boat, but Shilshole frowns on open flames at the dock.

cstevens
09-15-2016, 03:50 PM
That's what I assumed. Ok. But...


Shilshole frowns on open flames at the dock

Really? I can't imagine that all those liveaboards are not firing up the grill every weekend! You should just get a portable Weber to run the steam box and throw some burgers on it while you wait :D

ron ll
09-15-2016, 04:20 PM
My god what a difference the right tool makes.

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r560/ron_ll/67D6AF8C-2E2E-43B1-8047-2F6E27AEBE4C_zpsij5kdilt.jpg

Peerie Maa
09-15-2016, 04:25 PM
The bullnose is white oak, about 1-1/2" x 7/8" (it varies a little). The straight sections are easy to rip and take the corners off on a table saw. Then I do the final rounding with a big round over bit on a router table. I tied bending one with the hot towels one time, not really successful. And steaming should be done hot at the boat, but Shilshole frowns on open flames at the dock.

Use a wallpaper stripper :D

cstevens
09-15-2016, 04:32 PM
Success! That screw looks great too - seems like you could just put it back in.

ron ll
09-15-2016, 04:40 PM
And at this point Jay and Nick and all the pros are going, "Yuk yuk yuk. Bunch a #*{#* amateurs." :)

But my problem wasn't not having the right tools, it was remembering I had them.

cstevens
09-15-2016, 04:45 PM
But my problem wasn't not having the right tools, it was remembering I had them.

Well, that's one difference between an amateur and a professional right? We have to figure it out. They know because they do it every day. Same in any profession - say architecture or software development... I've spent 25 years learning to do automatically 99% of what I used to have to think about when I was just starting out as a junior software engineer. The remaining 1% is where the real work happens!

Canoeyawl
09-15-2016, 04:52 PM
The screwdriver bits in a brace is the best way (I think! - I have a coveted collection of these.)

There are lots of them on EBay
by example check this auction number - 162194844761 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-Brace-Screwdriver-Bits-Millers-Falls-Stanley-/162194844761?hash=item25c390ec59:g:f5UAAOSwdIFX0FX B)

Or search ebay for >screwdriver bit for brace

ron ll
09-15-2016, 06:02 PM
The screwdriver bits in a brace is the best way (I think! - I have a coveted collection of these.)

There are lots of them on EBay
by example check this auction number - 162194844761 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-Brace-Screwdriver-Bits-Millers-Falls-Stanley-/162194844761?hash=item25c390ec59:g:f5UAAOSwdIFX0FX B)

Or search ebay for >screwdriver bit for brace

Those look good and I might grab them. However, I found that the jaws in my brace chuck hold a hex bit just fine. Just have to use long shaft hex bits.

ron ll
09-15-2016, 06:14 PM
From old tools to new tools. I finished getting the bullnose off now I've started stripping the old canvas/burlap/fiberglass/epoxy/tar/etc. mess off the decking. My fein multi master came with a wide blade with no teeth, just a dull bevel edge. I didn't know what it was for ...until now. Does s great job of lifting that old canvas.

http://www.pyacht.com/images/FIN_Scraper_Blade.gif

ron ll
09-15-2016, 06:17 PM
Success! That screw looks great too - seems like you could just put it back in.

I'm saving all these old iron screws for you Chris. They'd look good on Petrel. :)

cstevens
09-15-2016, 08:18 PM
When I was racing motorcycles I used to keep a few worn out bike parts as momentos. Somewhere I still have a piston from a Honda 125 GP bike that I used to store paperclips on my desk. Maybe I should start a collection of boat parts now. I'd happily include a 70 yo screw from Snoose!

ron ll
09-15-2016, 09:00 PM
Or like when we were racing sailboats, when you get close to your competition, you would throw a couple rusty screws or cotter pins into their mainsail and watch them panic when they landed on their deck.

cstevens
09-15-2016, 10:47 PM
Er... Yes just like that.

Canoeyawl
09-16-2016, 12:01 AM
I'm saving all these old iron screws for you Chris. They'd look good on Petrel. :)

I have a collection of old bronze screws...
These take a large screwdriver indeed!

Edit; Note the buttress thread

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b457/canoeyawl/Spars/image.jpg1_2.jpg

WoodyHuscarl
09-16-2016, 09:10 AM
From old tools to new tools. I finished getting the bullnose off now I've started stripping the old canvas/burlap/fiberglass/epoxy/tar/etc. mess off the decking. My fein multi master came with a wide blade with no teeth, just a dull bevel edge. I didn't know what it was for ...until now. Does s great job of lifting that old canvas.

http://www.pyacht.com/images/FIN_Scraper_Blade.gif

I wonder how this method would work removing an epoxied plank that was standing well off a mold.

ron ll
09-16-2016, 10:47 AM
I wonder how this method would work removing an epoxied plank that was standing well off a mold.

I'm using the scraper blade which doesn't have teeth. It lifts the painted down canvas but doesn't do well when I run into an epoxy patch. But multi tools have all kinds of blades and a saw blade with teeth would probably work well for you. But be sure to wear a respirator. These tools don't have dust collection and they throw dust everywhere. (Yes, I bought the dust collector attachment for mine, it doesn't work worth a damn.)

sharpiefan
09-16-2016, 10:52 AM
http://assets.amuniversal.com/dd6ffcb05d38012ee3bd00163e41dd5b

I love my dinosaur tech tools. :)
Lee Valley also has
Hex Adapter for Yankee Screwdrivers (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=57809&cat=1,43411,43417&ap=2)
and
Yankee Screwdriver Bits (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=66021&cat=1,43411,43417&ap=2)

#include[std-disclaimer]

Eric Hvalsoe
09-16-2016, 11:12 AM
Hardwicks did not have traditional brace bits? That is surprising. The other long shot would be Tacoma Screw. But heck what you have works. Tacoma Screw is also where I get my 'dental tools' for clearing screw heads. Stoneway Hardware is the other good joint in town.

ron ll
09-16-2016, 11:26 AM
Hardwicks did not have traditional brace bits? That is surprising. The other long shot would be Tacoma Screw. But heck what you have works. Tacoma Screw is also where I get my 'dental tools' for clearing screw heads. Stoneway Hardware is the other good joint in town.

Hardwicks has trays and trays full of brace bits and augers, just no screwdriver blades. But there are two types of jaws in braces, and both of mine have the v groove double jaws which seem to hold a hex bit just fine. Not sure I even need the adapter that Lee Valley sells.

Eric Hvalsoe
09-16-2016, 12:01 PM
Hardwicks has trays and trays full of brace bits and augers, just no screwdriver blades. But there are two types of jaws in braces, and both of mine have the v groove double jaws which seem to hold a hex bit just fine. Not sure I even need the adapter that Lee Valley sells.

Gotcha, yes I meant old fashioned brace slot drivers. I have a good selection, not ancient, figured they must have come from there. I also occasionally use a hex base bit in the brace.

rbgarr
09-16-2016, 12:13 PM
Just the other day I used my old bit brace to unbolt a winch from its pad and install another vintage winch. Did it just the way Jay described. Love that tool.

nedL
09-16-2016, 12:25 PM
I confess I like my cordless tools.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d737b3127cceed75a2859f4f00000050O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020160916162004019.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
and to many drill bits for a brace (square drive - twist, auger, barefoot auger) to photograph.


https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d737b3127cceed74b2663ed800000050O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020160916162003923.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Gib Etheridge
09-16-2016, 12:32 PM
A little late for ron II, but for anyone obsessing over getting large size screwdriver bits, just get a big screwdriver and saw off the handle. Keep it long. I don't know why, but long drivers, even in a brace, are nicer to use.

Depending on the type of chuck your brace has you may need to grind it 4 or 3 sided to fit the chuck, and don't forget that hollow grinding the tip helps prevent damaging the slot in the screw and helps to keep the tip from sliding up out of the slot when torqueing.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb197/farwalker/screwdrivertiptypes.jpg (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi9vdaYppTPAhVYzWMKHfeSC-wQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calguns.net%2Fcalgunforum%2Fa rchive%2Findex.php%2Ft-1047521.html&psig=AFQjCNEhhSKJf9N7HgI7abDwpSnsEBAmuA&ust=1474129406194563)

nedL
09-16-2016, 12:34 PM
Yep, hollow grinding helps a lot.

ron ll
09-16-2016, 01:44 PM
I think I found why longer bits seem better, in a slotted screw it is very important to have the driver at the same angle as the screw. A longer bit seems to help visualize that alignment better.

nedL
09-16-2016, 02:03 PM
I think I found why longer bits seem better, in a slotted screw it is very important to have the driver at the same angle as the screw. A longer bit seems to help visualize that alignment better.

..... And a half inch 'off center' at the end of a long handle is much closer to in line with the screw than a half inch 'off center' at the end of a short handle.