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View Full Version : do I need to re-epoxy or glass on used CLC outriggers?



littlebird
09-14-2016, 09:43 PM
I recently bought a set of CLC outriggers. I cant ask the original builder any questions because he is no longer with us. I am not sure if they were ever used or not, I don't think they ever were but,, I was looking at them today and noticed a couple of tiny nail holes that were not sealed when he coated the outriggers with epoxy. The holes go all the way through. The holes are smaller then a small paneling nail and you can see where the epoxy went around the hole but did not seal it. I am far from a expert, as a matter of fact I have only built a 16' stitch and glue canoe..
What is the best and easiest way to fix this problem? They don't appear to have ever had fiberglass laid over them.
Do they need to be glassed or can they just be sanded and re-epoxied? The holes are just barely big enough to get a small safety pin through.
.http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr88/Annaleigh_123/WP_20160914_18_40_58_Pro.jpg (http://s472.photobucket.com/user/Annaleigh_123/media/WP_20160914_18_40_58_Pro.jpg.html)


I plan to make some cross bars and add the outriggers to my canoe which needs to be refinished but i will make a new thread for that..

Thanks,
Littlebird

stromborg
09-14-2016, 09:57 PM
I'm going to guess that they aren't finished, mostly because all the s&g hulls I've seen are sheathed in a layer of glass. This last step closes up any holes left after the initial seal coat of epoxy.

littlebird
09-14-2016, 10:13 PM
What weight glass would you use and since the finish is old, don't know how old, would I just sand the outriggers to where there is no shinny surface, wipe it down with denatured alcohol, lay the cloth over them, and wet it in? Let it dry good and add a couple more coats?

stromborg
09-15-2016, 12:19 PM
Something light, but the good folks at CLC ought to be able to tell you what they designed into the project.

Wash with soap and water first, then sand so you aren't just working any blush or other contaminants into the finish.

Dusty Yevsky
09-15-2016, 12:32 PM
If they are built out of 3mm ply as specified you will need to glass them. 4 oz cloth is specified. This will provide all the strength needed. Cut it on the bias so it will drape over the sharp radius on the bottom.

littlebird
09-15-2016, 08:46 PM
Thanks for the help and advice.
I am learning as I go here.. I found this article about bias.
http://www.clcboats.com/shoptips/epoxy_and_fiberglass/bias_weave_fiberglass.html
I have also read some on blush.. If I have it right,,
1- wash with soap and water.
2- dry sand with 800 paper
3- wipe down with acetone or denatured alcohol? I have a 1/2 gallon of denatured alcohol if that will work?
4- drape the cloth over the outriggers, brush it out with a dry paint brush and let it sit over night. Next day brush it out again and then wet it in.

Now my confusion is, is this done in two steps, bottom first and then flip it over the next day and do top of the outriggers.
Should I do the top first using painters tape just around the outer edges say 1/4 down, letting the cloth roll over the edge say 1/4 inch or so then come back and do the bottom?

the outriggers do have the mounting brackets on the top side with holes drilled in them for mounting them to the cross bars. It would be possible to suspend them by screwing a couple of say, 1x4s on the mounting brackets and screwing them into the floor joists in my unfinished basement so they would hang down 4 feet and not move around. With that thought in mind, if i screwed on the 1x4s and fastened them to stands on the floor, i could do the bottom first and quickly flip them over and hang them from the ceiling and do the top side of the outriggers.
Is it possible to drape the cloth over the bottom, wet it in, and then flip the outriggers over and wrap the cloth around over the top and wet it in in one step?
I hope that makes sense.

Thanks
Little Bird

Todd Bradshaw
09-15-2016, 09:07 PM
Skip the soap
Wash with water only, using a clean Scotchbrite pad (the green ones)
Use plenty of clean towels, rags or whatever with the water. You want to wash and lift any blush off the surface, not just move it around while wet.
No sanding
No solvent wash - acetone. alcohol, etc. (frequently it's more likely to contaminate than clean)
Draping and leaving it isn't really needed and is probably more of another contamination source than anything else (moisture from the air and airborne crap like exhaust fumes and dust are just more sources of contamination). Avoid them.

Beware that those outriggers may be supposed to have a small vent hole of some sort in them, to keep the air inside from heating, expanding and blowing out seams.

WHYankee
09-16-2016, 07:24 AM
+1 on what Todd said.

Dusty Yevsky
09-16-2016, 09:56 AM
Thanks for the help and advice.
I am learning as I go here.. I found this article about bias.


Now my confusion is, is this done in two steps, bottom first and then flip it over the next day and do top of the outriggers.
Should I do the top first using painters tape just around the outer edges say 1/4 down, letting the cloth roll over the edge say 1/4 inch or so then come back and do the bottom?


Regarding bias, you don't need to cut the cloth at a 45 degree angle, as you will end up with quite a bit of waste. Lay out a length of glass as long as the ama and cut it cattycorner. That will provide enough bias to drape across the radii.

No need glass the top if the ama is properly constructed. You can run the glass right to the edge of the top and maybe put a rubrail at the sheer. Or you can put a radius on the top/edge joint and wrap the glass maybe 3/4" onto the top. Define an edge with painter's tape on the top for a clean appearance.

stromborg
09-16-2016, 11:31 AM
I suggested using soap and water only because from the sounds of it these outriggers have been around for a while, picking up who knows what kind of contaminants. If they were sitting in my shop I wouldn't be concerned.

Todd Bradshaw
09-16-2016, 12:44 PM
That makes sense if they're dirty or grimy. Just be sure to really rinse them well.

tom151
09-16-2016, 07:35 PM
Where exactly are the holes? Is the some pattern or symmetry? SAme for both hulls? Might they have been intentional (and not yet filled) as registration holes of for future hardware mounting locations?

In any event, if the holes have been there a long time, and the hulls have been out doors, then if it were my boat, I'd drill them out enough the expose virgin wood before filling them (using neat epoxy first, before adding extended filler epoxy).

Not surprisingly, being CLC hulls, they're quite fast shapes indeed.

littlebird
09-17-2016, 01:44 PM
Thank you all for the help and recommendations ... now I have more questions then before!

I was typing this reply on my word processor and when I got ready to post it, I noticed a few more posts.. So ill just edit this ..

I was going to ask about how to cut the bias... Thanks
Here is a pic of the outriggers being glassed..
http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/z-clc-double-outrigger-kayak-epoxy-on-amas.jpg
When we built the canoe only the seams were glassed so it was pretty easy to do.. Again that was 10 years ago and I forgot allot since then.. looking at the pic, once the cloth is draped over the outriggers, it looks like the bow and stern ends of the cloth will have to be trimmed and I guess folded over each other a little. How much should the fold over be?

Epoxy
Should I go ahead and get a gallon? What brand is good for a inexperienced person to buy?
I was looking at the west system and noticed they have a 206 slow hardener and a 209 extra slow hardener.. temps are still in the 80‘s and 90‘s here..
I also noticed at Bateau where I got the canoe plans from, that they have a marine epoxy that says Marinepoxy UV resistant formula 1.5 Gallon Kit
“Epoxy with UV inhibitors. Ideal for surfboards, kayaks, or other applications where a laminates are exposed to the sun. Does not require clear coats or varnishes to protect from UV. Available in SLOW hardener only”
That seems like a good option for me as I wouldn’t need to go back and varnish it..

Cleaning
I don’t know the age of the outriggers. I know they are at least 2 or 3 years old and dusty..

Holes
I will have to go look at them again. A friend was helping me lay the outriggers out beside the canoe to get an idea of the length for the cross bars and he pointed one out to me.. Again they are so small you would have a hard time getting a sewing needle in the hole.. I saw 2 of them.. They look like they were kept under cover and perhaps never used as there are no signs of ever being mounted to cross bars.

Vent holes...
I hadn’t thought about that either. I have the CLC blue prints for the amas but there is nothing on them about vents. The guy I got the outriggers from gave me the blue prints but perhaps there was some more detailed paperwork with them that I didn’t get.. I did come across an article that said without a vent, no matter how well built a set of amas are, they will eventually develop a tiny pin hole to relieve pressure. When that happens, they will suck water in when put in the copol water.
http://www.smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-Articles/trimaran-amas-closed-vented.html

SO any ideas on how to vent them?

Can brass be bonded to wood with epoxy?
Since the outriggers are already together, there is no accessing them inside.
I had a possible idea for a manual vent using a small brass flange from a lamp supply. They are 1-1/4“ in diameter, have 3 mounting holes, and have 1/4 pipe thread in the middle.
http://www.grandbrass.com/ShowItem.cfm?ItemNumber=FL3F&session.currentcategory=Flanges&session.currentsubcategory=All

A breather vent could be screwed into the flange which would keep the pressure equal while making it difficult for water to enter..
http://ph.parker.com/us/en/air-preparation-accessories-breather-vents

Maybe there is something much simpler..

Thank you
Little Bird

Todd Bradshaw
09-17-2016, 02:42 PM
Clear epoxy that needs no further UV protection is B.S. sales hype aimed at people who don't know any better.
You now know better.
Water always wins, and likewise, so does sunlight. What would you like it to deteriorate - the replaceable top-coating (paint or varnish) or the epoxy resin holding your boat together?

There are various types of filters and absorbers which can be added to plastics and other stuff to help protect it from UV, but many of them get slowly used up as they do their job. When they are gone, so is your protection.

littlebird
09-21-2016, 06:48 PM
Thanks for all the help..

I talked to CLC and the guy said they do need to be vented. He said I should order the manual that goes with the blue prints. I told him that the outriggers are already built an just need to be glassed over and a vent put in them. Like Dusty Yevsky said, they need 4oz cloth over them.

I looked around and see there are allot of companies selling 4oz fiberglass cloth and the prices vary greatly.. The company I bought the canoe plans sells it for 3.75 30“ and $5.95 50“., while CLC is a bit higher... Both companies sell boat kits, Is there something I need to look for when buying the cloth that might make a $3 difference in the price per yard ?

As to the vents for the outriggers.
CLC said to use a round hatch vent or drain plug. The smallest inspection hatch I could find is 4“ ID and the outriggers are only 6“ wide on the outside at the widest point. I ask the guy at CLC about this and if cutting that much out of the top wold cause a problem, he said no, but I don’t really like that idea...

What do you guys think about something like this garboard drain plug plate?
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--garboard-drain-plug--P006_181_003_505?recordNum=8

Or maybe this flush mount 1.5“ gas boat deck filler neck
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5-INCH-Boat-Deck-gas-Boat-Deck-Fill-Filler-With-Key-Cap-38MM-Amarine-made-/262617860156?hash=item3d253e883c:g:rroAAOSwi0RXzob B&vxp=mtr

I don’t know if they builder sealed the inside of the outriggers or not so I am thinking I need to make sure they are water tight what ever vent system I use. I have read some posts saying that the outriggers can sometimes sweat inside. Does anyone know if this is true of wooden outriggers?
Is so then perhaps a larger access hole would be required for inspection..
If sweating is not a problem, I found these Pressure equalization plugs for electronic equipment that prevent moisture from entering while venting. They could screw directly into the garboard drain plug plate. It wold make venting automatic.
http://www.heyco.com/newsletters.cfm?newsletter=53

I picked up the aluminum outriggers yesterday so now its just a matter of glassing the outriggers and refinished the canoe, some varnish or paint and get it in the water..

Any and all suggestions welcomed!!
Thanks
Little Bird

upchurchmr
09-21-2016, 07:09 PM
You might look into a vent for a SUP.
CLC sells them.

But actually I made strip planked 11' hulls for a catamaran row boat and they are completely sealed - about 4 years now with no vent and no access, sitting out in the Texas sun.
No cracks etc.

The CLC hulls have a stringer at the joint between the deck and the hull panel. That is quite a bit of strength, if you decide to put in the 4" access plate. It is a bad feature to cut out most of the deck, but they may never get loaded that much.

littlebird
09-21-2016, 08:06 PM
I saw the stringer on the prints or on one of the sites I was looking at. I think a 4" access plate would be cutting right up next to them. I still have a sheet of the 1/4 okume I used on the canoe. If you think it would be better, I could cut a piece to go on top of the outriggers where the 4" plates would be installed. That would give it just a little more support. I can't think of how to do it from inside where it would really add any real support once the hole was cut.

As to load on the outriggers, I am just using them as stabilizers to make the canoe more suitable for my needs. I will be putting a 3hp motor on it but that is still not the same as sailing where all the weight might go to one outrigger at times. I would be in the lake sometimes to get to the river and there can be some pretty good size wakes at times.
A 3" hatch behind the rear cross bar would seem like less stress but I haven't been able to find anything smaller then 4"... Unless you go with bronze or stainless that starts around $60 or $70 each

Thanks
Little Bird