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NickW
09-10-2016, 12:42 PM
The General Election of 2015 and the European Referendum of 2016 were game changers in the field of British Politics. In both cases, the normally reliable opinion polls got the result wrong; the former being blamed on “Shy Tories” and the latter on “Shy Leavers”.


In the Westminster village the Labour party has torn itself apart and is incapable of forming an effective opposition to a Conservative Government hostage to a small but vocal right wing. On top of that we have Brexit issue to deal with.


In thinking about the situation, I can only come up with questions, not answers, which I hope will stimulate debate and not acrimonious mud slinging as with US politics.


Should the Brexit Referendum result be overturned by a) the Courts as they are being currently petitioned and / or b) Parliament; and what would this entail for democracy?


If this happens, should the electorate be asked again whether they agree or not? And should the question be put to another Referendum or a General Election? I would prefer the latter so that any Government formed thereafter has a clear mandate to act. But it should be borne in mind that the Fixed Terms (Parliament) Act puts a few hurdles in the way of an early Election.


Is it acceptable to still regard “Leavers” as “uneducated racists”? Some left wing commentators consider that such people should not be entrusted with the Vote”. Should there be a level of educational attainment to be gained or a State exam to be passed before you are allowed to vote? (I am strongly opposed but others may differ. It’s a sad reflection of the bitterness that divides this Country that such a step is even contemplated.)


Is the Labour Party finished as a credible political force in this Country, and if so, who / what could replace them?


Will Labour become a hard left protest group matched on the Right by UKIP? And where does that leave the Centre?


Should we follow the Swiss model and use referenda more often, and what would this mean for the concept of Parliamentary Sovereignty?


Views welcomed and any other related questions.


Nick

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
09-10-2016, 12:54 PM
This'll be fun

Peerie Maa
09-10-2016, 01:32 PM
The recent on line votes have clarified my thinking.
Our parliamentary democracy functions because the voters elect representatives on their stated manifesto. Those representatives then have the time and facilities to become educated on the issues on which they have to make decisions. We should continue to let them get on with it.

The decision to hold public votes is a bad idea that runs contrary to the tried and tested process set out above.
With the best will in the world, no matter how well educated or informed, the British Joe the Plumber cannot be fully informed of the pros an cons of the choices put.
In the case of Corbyn, he was an unknown outside of Islington. I had seen one mention of him before he ran for leader. That was a passing mention in the Tony Benn diaries to the effect that he attended a meeting with Wedgy. It is apparent that he had minimal support amongst the parliamentarians, and may well be unelectable as PM. His performance during the BREXIT campaign went unnoticed although he claims to have been at 140+ meetings. Does not cut it. 140 X say 300 at a time, compared to prime time TV? Hopeless.
Then we come to BREXIT. Lies and misjudgements. Cameron could not counter many of the lies as he would have had to say "No that's not the EU, those were our fault". They also misjudged the issues of importance to the voters. However when it comes down to it it was a protest vote based on a complete misunderstanding of how the EU works and what it does.
In summary, two more Boaty McBoatface exercises.

As to the future. Probably another Tory government with policies dragging us back in to the 19C caste system and dismantling many of the protections that the disadvantaged and wage slaves have and need. This will tick off the electorate , iether after one or two more Tory governments and labour will be returned again.

As to UKIP, like the Liberals, they have achieved their objective and now have no purpose. The Liberals were always excellent town and county councillors. I doubt that UKIP will attract enough competent activists to grow into that role.
That leaves Labour and the Greens, sort out the Corbyn problem and dump the selection vote and give it back to the PLP and they will be able to become electable again.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
09-10-2016, 03:45 PM
A broadly accurate summary - with rose tinted specs.

Labour has lost Scotland and that results in a starting deficit of about 55 MPs - I doubt either of us will see a labour government again.

Peerie Maa
09-10-2016, 03:58 PM
Dunno, When the Scots realise that the SNP has the power to deliver on their aspirations, but has not done so, blaming Westminster instead, that might change.

Then again the Scots might go independent due to Brexit, possibly.

The UK electorate will eventually play "the grass is greener" card when the Tories push it too far. If Labour can get its act together by then they will form a government, if not outright, in coalition with the Greens.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
09-10-2016, 04:37 PM
True - but will I live that long?

Peerie Maa
09-10-2016, 04:43 PM
One, or may be two terms after this one. 2025, or 2030 at the latest.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
09-10-2016, 04:52 PM
50/50 I'll be dead by then.

And the smart money says none of the existing parties will have taken a serious shot at addressing the major problems with the UK economy.

NickW
09-11-2016, 01:14 PM
I wish I could share your optimism about the Labour Party. With Corbyn as leader and a large grass roots support from Momentum / Socialist Workers / Militant Tendancy or whatever the Trots are calling themselves now, he is /has gained control of the NEC and with Union block votes will control Conference. When he loses in 2020, I can't see him stepping down (no matter what John McConnell said) unless it is for a younger version. I don't see a Neil Kinnock anywhere to fight back, nor the support that would be needed to defeat the Trots.

Maybe in 2020 we be voting for the Co-Operative Party as the centre left alternative.

BTW, isn't Jeremy a wonderful advertisment for the benefits of a grammer school education!

Nick

Peerie Maa
09-11-2016, 01:22 PM
Well 4 years is a long time in politics. You never know.

NickW
09-11-2016, 02:03 PM
Well 4 years is a long time in politics. You never know.

True, and St Anthony may return to deliver them from evil spirits.

Nick

Osborne Russell
09-12-2016, 01:08 PM
Should the Brexit Referendum result be overturned by a) the Courts as they are being currently petitioned and / or b) Parliament; and what would this entail for democracy?

The legal effect of the referendum is zero, AFAIK. What would be the point of overturning it?

NickW
09-12-2016, 02:02 PM
The legal effect of the referendum is zero, AFAIK. What would be the point of overturning it?

Right and wrong. The Brexit referendum was advisory but it is the democratically expressed wish of the British people to leave the EU. The Court case, AFAIK, is about how that is to be achieved. The petitioners claim that as the legal force to implement Britian's signatory to the Treaty of Rome is by why of the European Communities Act 1972, another Act of Parliament is required to leave. The Government claim that, under Royal Perogrative, they can activate Article 50 of the Treaty of Maastrict, a successor to that of Rome, without reference to Parliament as it is the wish of the British people. This is a case of where strict legality meets popular democracy and how it interacts with Common Law.

If the former is held, then Parliament may decide not to approve any Government Bill to allow them to activate Article 50. In that case, the peoples' elected representatives will have decided to ignore the wishes of the electorate.

Back to my original question, where does that leave democracy?

Nick

Peerie Maa
09-12-2016, 02:14 PM
Back to my original question, where does that leave democracy?

Nick

As we operate representative democracy, in a healthy place. With the representatives doing their job of looking after the best interests of the UK.
A two tier system where elected representatives are handed the ****ty end of a stick by popular but uninformed, nay ignorant, voters is an unworkable position, and should not be repeated.

Osborne Russell
09-12-2016, 02:21 PM
Parliament can vote any time it likes for England to leave the EU, and if it does, that's the law, right? Indicative of the constitutional power. Does Royal Prerogative mean that the monarch has the same power? Whoever exercises first, wins?

OTOH if neither Parliament nor the monarch do nothing, who can force them to? If no one, then England remains in EU.

Which means the legal force of the referendum was . . .

And so the effect on democracy is . . .

Peerie Maa
09-12-2016, 02:43 PM
Osbourn, this is what Royal Prerogative is:

In domestic matters, the Royal Prerogative covers


the issuing and withdrawal of passports
the appointment and dismissal of ministers
the appointment of Queen's Counsel
the granting of honours
the appointment and regulation of the civil service
the commissioning of officers in the armed forces
the dissolution of Parliament
the calling of elections



In foreign affairs, it covers


the declaration of war
the making of treaties
the recognition of foreign states
the accreditation of diplomats

It also allows the deployment of armed forces in the UK and abroad.
The Royal Prerogative of Mercy used to enable the withdrawal of the death penalty, but now allows changes in sentences.


Most of which, including foreign affairs are devolved to parliament or the relevant bit of the Civil Service. The monarch basically rubber stamps the decisions by signifying assent. So your question "Whoever exercises first, wins?" is a nonsense.

NickW
09-12-2016, 02:58 PM
A two tier system where elected representatives are handed the ****ty end of a stick by popular but uninformed, nay ignorant, voters is an unworkable position, and should not be repeated.

And where would that leave a future referendum on Scottish independence, or indeed one on Irish reunification?

Nick

Peerie Maa
09-12-2016, 03:13 PM
Sort out the uninformed, nay ignorant bit.
Or use the same mechanism that created the Union in the first place ;) I was of the opinion that if the Scots had voted to leave, they would have had the same level of competence in government and financial/economic strength as they had during the Darien disaster.

Irish reunification would be a question put to people who are better informed on the subject than the Brexit supporters were.

skuthorp
09-12-2016, 03:26 PM
Cameron resigns as May dismantles his cabinet.
Interesting.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
09-12-2016, 05:23 PM
Cameron resigns as May dismantles his cabinet.
Interesting.

But not surprising - very few ex-prime ministers have hung around on the back benches - MacMillan and Heath - others usually head for the Chiltern Hundreds.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-13-2016, 04:40 AM
I am too heartbroken by the wilful destruction of my country by a bunch of savages to say anything useful.

skuthorp
09-13-2016, 04:52 AM
We have had/have 2 ex pm's, both rolled by their own parties, hang about sniping from the back bench. Not helpful, but then the weren't trying to be.

NickW
09-13-2016, 10:38 AM
Cameron resigns as May dismantles his cabinet.
Interesting.
Lots of reasons have been attributed in the papers by "connected sources" as to why Doubleback Dave has quit three months after saying he would stay on untill the 2020 election. He most probably had an offer he can't refuse. Time to start the sweep stake, the offer's from-

Goldman Sacks 2/1
Tony Bliar Associates 9/2
10/1 bar.

Nick

Edward Pearson
09-13-2016, 11:01 AM
I think we should have another referendum.

This is an excellent way of achieving change in issue politics, where an issue is one less important than 'the economy' or the NHS where out political parties obsess in some kind of 70's time warp, and never achieve results.

It should say:

"Should we compulsary purchase farmland and build 500,000 extra new homes, abolish second home ownership and allow home ownership only by UK nationals. Yes or No?"


Ed

Peerie Maa
09-13-2016, 12:12 PM
^You cannot answer "Yes" or "No" to three different questions by putting your mark in only one box.

Silly Billy.

lupussonic
09-13-2016, 12:50 PM
I am too heartbroken by the wilful destruction of my country by a bunch of savages to say anything useful.


zzzzzzzzzzzzz................zzzzzzzzzzzzz

NickW
09-13-2016, 12:53 PM
What do people think of the proposed Boundary changes? Quite a lot of informed reporting by the BBC here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32695546
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37347650
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37351172

Expect a lot of squabbles in the Westminster village.

Nick

Peerie Maa
09-13-2016, 01:05 PM
What do people think of the proposed Boundary changes? Quite a lot of informed reporting by the BBC here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32695546
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37347650
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37351172

Expect a lot of squabbles in the Westminster village.

Nick

The squabbles have begun :D
This
Reality Check verdict: The review is based on the December 2015 register, which has about 1.75 million fewer voters than had registered by June 2016. If the June 2016 register had been used, there would have been two more MPs in London, two fewer in Scotland, one more in the south west of England and one fewer in Northern Ireland.
Labour frontbencher Jon Ashworth has told BBC Radio 4 the proposed constituency boundary changes would mean "proceeding with a boundary review when there's two million people missing from the electoral register - two million people who joined the register ahead of the Brexit referendum"is key.
Islington North is an interesting result.
I have looked at the proposals, but without knowing the voting demographics amongst the old constituencies it is hard to tell what the net result will be.
My own MP will have to put in a lot more miles as my constituency grabs half of the one to our northern boundary.

ShagRock
09-14-2016, 04:36 AM
Fat ass bureaucrats love to strut their stuff.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37359196

NickW
09-14-2016, 02:35 PM
It's all change here as well. Bournemouth at present is 2 constituencies, East and West, with the dividing line allmost through the town centre. The proposals are to have one Bournemouth constituency, with north Bournemouth being hived off and amalgamated with Christchurch. This means the breakup of the old Christchurch and New Forest constituency which seems sensible as currently it crosses the Dorset / Hampshire border. Hopefully we could even see the back of Christopher Chope, the current Christchurch MP, who is somewhat to the far right of Gengis Khan. The two current Bournemouth MPs are Tobias Ellwood and Conor Burns who are pretty moderate.

Nick

Peerie Maa
09-14-2016, 02:54 PM
Did you know that there is a petition up and running asking for the work to be redone with the correct number of voters, e.g. including the number who signed up to vote in the Brexit referendum, a difference of 2million voters. 55,600 have signed already.

NickW
09-14-2016, 03:23 PM
Did you know that there is a petition up and running asking for the work to be redone with the correct number of voters, e.g. including the number who signed up to vote in the Brexit referendum, a difference of 2million voters. 55,600 have signed already.

No, I didn't, thanks. I've no problem with the work being redone as long as the June 2016 register is the Final cut-off. I would not want the work to be redone and then people say that the December 2016 register should have been used because (insert reason). Bournemouth Council have already contacted me about registering for this years register and I have replied.

In short, all to agree on a cut-off, redo it, adopt it.

Nick

NickW
09-22-2016, 02:23 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/09/21/2209-MATT-GALLERY-WEB-P1-large_trans++qVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu 2jJnT8.png

NickW
09-23-2016, 02:17 PM
I can't access the FT's link given since it's behind a paywall.

I think everybody acepts that the negotiations to leave the EU will not be easy. In essence it depends, like all negotiations, on goodwill on both sides. If Juncker et al have their way it will be a very messy and acrimonious divorce. If Merkel has her way it will be fairly amicable. One thing it won't be though is the end of the world as we know it. Project Fear failed to persuade the voters, negative campaigning seldom wins. The Remainers should have talked up the advantages and Dave C should not have been so cocky.

I've said before that parliament can overrule the Referendum but is that wise? At present Remainers are being seen, at least round here, as sore losers. Boy George is leading a bigger sulk than Ted Heath. Does the man have a (political) death wish? His seat is proposed to be abolished and Tory Party HQ will deny him another if he continues like this.

The longer the uncertainity goes on, the more polarised opinions are going to get. May has either to trigger Article 50 or arrange a vote in the House quickly to get a definitive answer. She must be aware that the Witney by election on 20th October is a golden opportunity for UKIP, despite Dave C having a 25,000+ majority last year. She must move quickly if it's not all going to end in tears again.

BTW The latest poll in today's Times gave C39%, L30%, UKIP 13%, LD 8% others 10%.

Nick

NickW
09-23-2016, 04:10 PM
Too true. To somewhat mangle a phrase "They've had an all mighty kick in the ballots" and are still recovering from it. They are just not used to having their opinions contradicted, not least by unwashed plebs!

Nick

heimfried
01-21-2017, 10:26 AM
After Ms. May eventually realised, that it will not be possible for Britain to leave the EU but remain in the single market and the customs union, she tells now, Britain will leave EU, single market and customs union. But she will negotiate to achieve as a future non-member better conditions, than Britain has now as a member state.

Because the EU will not concede conditions which it can't concede without commiting suicide, she calls it "punishment" and threatens to go for a tax war against Europe.

And Mr. Johnson is "extremely excited", because Mr. Farage and a meber of the Trump team are telling, there is a US-UK trade deal to get within 90 days or less.

This british government does not working well in my opinion and the labour opposition isn't working at all.

isla
01-21-2017, 12:07 PM
And Mr. Johnson is "extremely excited", because Mr. Farage and a meber of the Trump team are telling, there is a US-UK trade deal to get within 90 days or less.

Any two national leaders could make a 'trade deal' in five minutes over a cup of coffee.
"We'll buy stuff from you"..
"OK and we'll buy stuff from you"
Shake hands then "My people will be in touch with your people".

That could be interpreted as a deal. It's the fine detail that often takes years.


This british government does not working well in my opinion and the labour opposition isn't working at all.

True on both counts.

Peerie Maa
01-21-2017, 12:10 PM
@ heimfried
^ just so.
Also can anyone explain this?

Theresa May has threatened EU leaders that she will walk away from negotiations with Brussels if they attempt to give Britain a “bad deal” as she revealed her 12-point plan for divorce talks.
Is she saying that she will simply sever all ties and leave us with no relationship with our nearest neighbours, like for example NZ or OZ, but without their proximity to the Pacific Rim economies and markets?

isla
01-21-2017, 12:19 PM
Also can anyone explain this?
Is she saying that she will simply sever all ties and leave us with no relationship with our nearest neighbours, like for example NZ or OZ, but without their proximity to the Pacific Rim economies and markets?

It looks like she is trying to impress her critics by taking a hard line, but it's a foolish move. At a time when Trump and Putin are desperately trying to drive wedges between the EU nations, it seems appropriate to at least keep a friendly relationship with our European neighbours. United we stand, divided we fall and all that.

heimfried
01-21-2017, 12:48 PM
While Ms. May refuses to give the parliament a say on the crucial point whether Britain will trigger article 50 or not, she said now, she will ask the parliament before the conclusion of the treaties to negotiate.

That is a nothing value. There are different opinions, if Britain would be entitled (without the consent of all the other 27 members), to whithdraw the article 50 notice, once given to the EU. No such entitlement is written in the european treaties. And this question is to decide only by the European Court of Justice.

So, if the parliament would say "no" to the negotiated agreements, it would not at all mean a revocation of leaving the EU. It would mean: Britain is out without an agreement. This point is not discussed in the british public as it seems to me (since june I read every day online British newspapers).

Peerie Maa
01-21-2017, 12:56 PM
^ It comes down to the Tories having no plan and having to sort out a crappy task on the hoof.
They only held the referendum to shut up the Tory Little Englander back bench MP's and did not expect the result they were given.
So now May is between a rock and a hard place, with a duty to try and make the best of a really bad job and no contingency plan in place.

bob winter
01-21-2017, 01:00 PM
I am sure the UK will survive but I am not so sure of the EU.

heimfried
01-21-2017, 01:04 PM
I am sure the UK will survive [...].

You are generally right, but in what shape? Did you look at Northern Ireland and see, the Good Fridays agreement is at risk? Did you look at Scotland?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-21-2017, 01:06 PM
The UK is fifty fifty on surviving, there are really serious internal stresses.

heimfried
01-21-2017, 01:11 PM
[...] but I am not so sure of the EU.

While it is possible that the EU comes to a crash, I don't think so. In spite of the serious effort, Putin puts in it and, as it is obvious now, also Trump.

Peerie Maa
01-21-2017, 01:51 PM
While it is possible that the EU comes to a crash, I don't think so. In spite of the serious effort, Putin puts in it and, as it is obvious now, also Trump.

I'm inclined to agree. Not that it is too big to fail, it is too important to fail.

bob winter
01-21-2017, 02:23 PM
My thoughts on the EU is that the Euro is toxic to some members. The UK did well to retain the pound. I really fail to fully understand why Greece didn't do Grexit.

Peerie Maa
01-21-2017, 02:27 PM
My thoughts on the EU is that the Euro is toxic to some members. The UK did well to retain the pound. I really fail to fully understand why Greece didn't do Grexit.

I am not sure that they could. They were bankrupt due to the national hobby of not paying taxes. The country would have ceased to function without the support of the EU.

heimfried
01-21-2017, 02:40 PM
I am not sure that they could. They were bankrupt due to the national hobby of not paying taxes. The country would have ceased to function without the support of the EU.

Yea.

Most of the greek people hate the EU, especially Germany. But it is ok for them that the ship owners of Greece, the richest citizen, have to pay no tax, which is fixed in their constitution. And the other rich people, who are liable to pay taxes, prefer, to refuse. The tax authorities put not very much effort in changing this habit.

Hugh Conway
01-21-2017, 02:41 PM
I'd add - the disgusting reality of today appears that a major foreign policy aim of the Trump regime is the destruction of the EU. Prepare accordingly

bob winter
01-21-2017, 02:58 PM
What would be the consequences of ceasing to function? Would it worse than having a debt to banksters that will likely be repaid bur billions will be paid in interest?

NickW
01-21-2017, 03:14 PM
The UK is fifty fifty on surviving, there are really serious internal stresses.


And some how they got to be dealt with. Down here, most people are a bit like John Bull, fed up of paying for everything. The Scots are intent on dissolving the Union so another referendum is invetiable.Only this time the question should be asked on both sides of the border and only a No vote on both sides would maintain the status quo. Prior to that a divorce Bill should be published so that everybody is in no doubt as to who gets what.

After that I don't know. Certainly the reunification of Ireland is a necessity but whether the Unionists would agree is problematic, maybe they could go home to Scotland. Welsh independence? that's a tricky one.

Nick

Peerie Maa
01-21-2017, 03:16 PM
What would be the consequences of ceasing to function? Would it worse than having a debt to banksters that will likely be repaid bur billions will be paid in interest?

These organisations cease and their staff are thrown out of work. http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/gr.html
All of the utilities and public services dependent on them stop working.

bob winter
01-21-2017, 03:19 PM
I don't think Northern Ireland will unify with the Catholics. Too much bad blood.

Peerie Maa
01-21-2017, 03:23 PM
I don't think Northern Ireland will unify with the Catholics. Too much bad blood.

I see the Constitution of Eire being a bigger blocker.

PeterSibley
01-21-2017, 04:33 PM
A friend of mine , originally from NZ and Australia who now lives in France says a lot of Brits he knows are upset that they will now have return to the UK from Europe, some 3 million of them. Many have bought housing in European countries.

John Meachen
01-21-2017, 04:43 PM
And some how they got to be dealt with. Down here, most people are a bit like John Bull, fed up of paying for everything. The Scots are intent on dissolving the Union so another referendum is invetiable.Only this time the question should be asked on both sides of the border and only a No vote on both sides would maintain the status quo. Prior to that a divorce Bill should be published so that everybody is in no doubt as to who gets what.

After that I don't know. Certainly the reunification of Ireland is a necessity but whether the Unionists would agree is problematic, maybe they could go home to Scotland. Welsh independence? that's a tricky one.

Nick
I wish the Scots well.They may have the leverage to enforce a level of sanity on the rest of the UK.It would be fairer if the whole UK electorate could vote on whether to exit the EU on whatever terms the negotiators finally agree.I doubt that our elected representatives will be able to resist voting for any change that gives them more power.

Peerie Maa
01-21-2017, 04:59 PM
.It would be fairer if the whole UK electorate could vote on whether to exit the EU on whatever terms the negotiators finally agree.

Careful what you wish for. I offer you Boaty McBoatface and Jeremy Corbyn (twice).

John Meachen
01-21-2017, 05:17 PM
Careful what you wish for. I offer you Boaty McBoatface and Jeremy Corbyn (twice).


You could have added Brexit.

Peerie Maa
01-21-2017, 06:35 PM
^ Just so. However as you were suggesting letting the uninformed vote on BREXIT I thought it might be a tad provocative.

Osborne Russell
01-21-2017, 07:23 PM
And some how they got to be dealt with. Down here, most people are a bit like John Bull, fed up of paying for everything. The Scots are intent on dissolving the Union so another referendum is invetiable.Only this time the question should be asked on both sides of the border and only a No vote on both sides would maintain the status quo. Prior to that a divorce Bill should be published so that everybody is in no doubt as to who gets what.

After that I don't know. Certainly the reunification of Ireland is a necessity but whether the Unionists would agree is problematic, maybe they could go home to Scotland. Welsh independence? that's a tricky one.

Nick

A similar situation in the USA when the constitution was ratified. There was already a movement afoot to separate Maine from Massachusetts. Some people were against the national Constitution because they thought it would hasten the split, others for it because they thought it would prevent it. IOW people voted for or against the national constitution based on 180 degree contradictions in what they expected the effect to be on their pet local issue.

Everybody wants to keep it small and local until there's an external threat, it seems.

isla
01-24-2017, 05:19 AM
Just in. The UK government has lost its appeal at the Supreme Court, and the decision to trigger article 50 must now be subject to a vote in Parliament..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-38723261

Andrew2
01-24-2017, 05:47 AM
A friend of mine , originally from NZ and Australia who now lives in France says a lot of Brits he knows are upset that they will now have return to the UK from Europe, some 3 million of them. Many have bought housing in European countries.

Brits (inc me)have lived in europe for years before the EU was thought of, so I don't follow that they all have to return to UK if Brexit goes through. Bit more paperwork and residency permits, but no big deal.
A2

With the élections coming up here and Germany, the EU needs to sort itself out, or Brexit will be a minor event. Italy is on the edge...

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-24-2017, 07:02 AM
This brexitmess resembles nothing so much as the outbreak of WW1, everyone knows it's a dumb idea but we're going to do it anyway.

isla
01-24-2017, 07:40 AM
It looks like the deal offered to Nissan, originally thought to be cash incentives to protect them from EU tariffs post-brexit, may now be under review by Nissan. They employ 6,700 people at the Sunderland plant. It has been reported recently that the 'deal' was nothing more than a commitment by the government to push for tariff-free access to EU markets in Brexit talks. Now that Teresa May appears to heading for a hard brexit, or clean break, Nissan are having second thoughts..

http://www.politico.eu/article/nissan-to-review-uk-investment-decision-based-on-brexit-deal-ceo/

isla
01-24-2017, 07:42 AM
In Wales there is concern over how a hard brexit will affect Aerospace company Airbus..

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/fears-over-how-brexit-could-12406574

heimfried
01-24-2017, 08:56 AM
A part of today's Supreme Court Rule reads:

26.

In these proceedings, it is common ground that notice under article 50(2)

(which we shall call “Notice”) cannot be given in qualified or conditional terms and

that, once given, it cannot be withdrawn. [...]

It follows from this that once the United Kingdom gives Notice, it will inevitably cease at a later date to

be a member of the European Union and a party to the EU Treaties.

heimfried
01-24-2017, 11:38 AM
The Independent publishes an article, which is - in my opinion - misleading.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-ruling-mps-stop-article-50-triggered-constitutional-lawyer-geoffrey-robertson-a7543571.html

Geoffrey Robertson QC: “A future Parliament can decide to stop the Brexit process in its tracks simply by repealing any act or any statute that the Government, as a result of today’s decision, manages to pass.”

He is probably formally correct saying: “The Supreme Court decision was made only on the assumption that it was because counsel on both sides agreed that it was irrevocable." But his conclusion is likely wrong.

Article 50:
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the state in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the member state concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period. …”

Judge yourself: if already the prolongation of the negotiations is only possible with the consent of all 28 members, why should the single member be entitled, to declear unilateral to withdraw his notice?

The decision wheter the notice to trigger article 50 is given or not, is only as long as it is not given a solely british matter. But after this notice is received in Brussels there are 27 other players in the game. And not the UKSC is up to decide, if it is revocable or not, but the ECJ.

Peerie Maa
01-24-2017, 12:10 PM
This http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf is silent on whether you can change your mind and stay. All it says is that 2 years after triggering Article 50 you are out. So may be silence does mean no back tracking.

isla
01-24-2017, 12:14 PM
This http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf is silent on whether you can change your mind and stay. All it says is that 2 years after triggering Article 50 you are out. So may be silence does mean no back tracking.

Good point. But then, as far as I know, there is no restriction on a country applying to join again after leaving. That would be amusing :d

NickW
01-24-2017, 12:36 PM
The judgement is interesting in several ways.

On the main issue, there was an 8 - 3 split which had not been expected. The betting was on a unaminous verdict requiring Parliament to legislate in favour of allowing Brexit.

The judgement did not spell out how the legislation should be framed, again against expectations. Their Lordships decided to leave this can of worms to the politicians.

The judement was unaminous in deciding that the Devolved Administrations had no power of veto over UK matters which are reserved solely to Westminster. The Scots will be unhappy with that.

Now we just have to wait and see what sort of Bill the Government proposes and enjoy the inevitable shenagigins that will result.

Nick

Andrew2
01-24-2017, 12:42 PM
The real problem here is not trade, like Nissan and Airbus, but the Brussels Politicos who fear that their precious project will be at risk if UK gets out. Nobody objects to good trade deals, as was originally sold to the populace, but they do object to the 'ever closer' bit. The introduction of the Euro was designed to cause a crisis, except that it was a far bigger one than they expected. So, rather than bring everybody closer (to a federal gov), it has had the opposite effect.
Bearing in mind that the pols have not had an accurate forcast in recent élections.... around 70% of the French do not think the EU is working for them. Whether this will reflect on votes for the FN and Le Pen remains to be seen. We could be surprised.
The immigration issue is viewed as not being handled well. Friends in Italy say it is a real problem, with no answer. Expect a swing to the right on this. While we all know that this is not something EU Policy can do much about, the free movement once the immigrants get a foothold is naturally an issue.

You might gather that I am not an EU fan. True, but I am a fan of the idea of free trade and it should have stopped there, not the unworkable mess that the mainly unelected socialist (career) politicians have foisted on us.

Rant over|:) Need to cook dinner, it's my turn.

Edit: I was writing this before several of the last posts.

Andrew2
01-24-2017, 12:47 PM
Good point. But then, as far as I know, there is no restriction on a country applying to join again after leaving. That would be amusing :d

The terms might be considered usery...

Peerie Maa
01-24-2017, 02:04 PM
The introduction of the Euro was designed to cause a crisis, except that it was a far bigger one than they expected.


That is a weird point of view. Can you substantiate it?

heimfried
01-24-2017, 02:41 PM
[...] But then, as far as I know, there is no restriction on a country applying to join again after leaving. That would be amusing :d

Article 50 Nr. 5:

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.


Article 49:

Any European State which respects the values referred to in Article 2 and is committed to promoting them may apply to become a member of the Union. The European Parliament and national Parliaments shall be notified of this application. The applicant State shall address its application to the Council, which shall act unanimously after consulting the Commission and after receiving the consent of the European Parliament, which shall act by a majority of its component members. The conditions of eligibility agreed upon by the European Council shall be taken into account.


Yes, no restriction, but also no privileged position.

skuthorp
01-24-2017, 02:49 PM
Hmm…..Trident anyone?
May refusing to answer a question, and likely misleading parliament by omission.

skaraborgcraft
01-24-2017, 03:00 PM
I find it somewhat amusing that Theresa May could appeal the decision with the ECJ, seeing it was the ECJ that over ruled her stance when she was Home Office Queen. She has already made it clear that a hard exit is better than a bad deal, and she fought tooth and nail (with tax payers money) fighting an undefendable position which she later lost. Her interests , in my experience, have very little to do with the average British citizen. She did a remarkable version of "Teflon Tony" when avoiding questions about a failed missile test on the TV, and misled parliment about that when voting for the renewal of Trident. Guess i have to be carefull what i say.....but not exactly trustworthy....teflon Theresa has a certain ring to it.

Andrew2
01-24-2017, 03:06 PM
That is a weird point of view. Can you substantiate it?

Only from what I have read over a few years. The original movers knew that that euro would create the imbalance between the North and South and would eventialy cause the Financial problems that that they thought would help them bind the countries together in an federal europe. Seems they underestimated the disaster they created, with Greece spiralling down after grabbing much off the teat. Most of the Med lot thought that low interest was a road to a better life. Many of them are now homeless, or close. Several friends in Portugal are close to forclosure.
The sudden lowering of interest rates on the entry to the EU, fueled a property boom. Well know in Spain, but also happened in Portugal.
It was part of the EU bribery to get everybody 'on side' I know that sounds a bit partisan, but just look at the number of projects over the poorer countries that where financed with out any control on how they were run. Airports in Spain, bridges in Greece. Motorways in Italy. It goes on..

I really have to get cooking now. |:)
A2

Peerie Maa
01-24-2017, 03:18 PM
The latest on Trident is:
former nuclear submarine commander and Ulster Unionist Party assembly member, Steve Aiken, told Today that any fault "would have been sorted out"."There is a convention that we don't talk about the deterrent... because that is the nature of the deterrent - it is about the security of this nation and I would fully support the prime minister in avoiding those questions," he said.


and

CNN quoted an unnamed US defence official on Monday as saying the unarmed II D5 missile - fired from HMS Vengeance off the coast of Florida - did deviate from its intended trajectory as part of an automatic self-destruct sequence.
<snip>
Former defence minister Lord West told MPs he had been led to believe there had been a "minor hiccough" with the missile's automated communications system and it had been prematurely ditched into the ocean as a precaution.
<snip>
Appearing before the committee, Lord West said it sounded like the problem occurred once the missile was airborne and the Royal Navy could not be held responsible.

"The submarine was put in the right position and was in the right mode - everything was done correctly in terms of the correct firing checks.
"The missile fired properly and went up into the air... From everything that is said, it was an issue with telemetry within that missile which, if you are not 100% certain, you do not even take a risk. That is the missile itself. That is an American issue."

from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38735202
One should remember that tests are carried out to test a system, to find out if anything might go wrong, identify problems and fix them, so even a failed missile is a good test.

heimfried
01-24-2017, 03:26 PM
I find it somewhat amusing that Theresa May could appeal the decision with the ECJ, [...]

Not the ruling of the Supreme Court of today. The European Court will not judge on british constitutional law.

But the question if the triggering of article 50 is revocable, is a matter of european law and would be decided by the ECJ.

Sky Blue
02-01-2017, 08:53 PM
A rather significant vote has occurred today, has it not?

Rather surprised there is no comment on it.

Duncan Gibbs
02-01-2017, 09:02 PM
It depresses me and Corbyn is a numbnut.

Will that do?

Sky Blue
02-02-2017, 02:25 PM
It depresses me and Corbyn is a numbnut.

Will that do?


I admire Jeremy Corbyn (apart from his preposterous Leninism). He doesn't change his beliefs because of what the editorialists say, what the Tories say, what the quisling Blairites say. For all of the predictions of his demise, which began the moment he was named party leader, he's outlasted Blairite insurgencies, the anti-Semitism row, David Cameron, the Brexit plebiscite, and the Article 50 vote. He may well outlast Theresa May, if she botches these negotiations.

If the Tories ever had a leader with the backbone Corbyn has shown, the UK never would have had Brexit in the first place.

Peerie Maa
02-02-2017, 02:31 PM
I admire Jeremy Corbyn (apart from his preposterous Leninism). He doesn't change his beliefs because of what the editorialists say, what the Tories say, what the quisling Blairites say. For all of the predictions of his demise, which began the moment he was named party leader, he's outlasted Blairite insurgencies, the anti-Semitism row, David Cameron, the Brexit plebiscite, and the Article 50 vote. He may well outlast Theresa May, if she botches these negotiations.

If the Tories ever had a leader with the backbone Corbyn has shown, the UK never would have had Brexit in the first place.

My problem with Jeremy is he has not updated his thinking for about 40 years. That and a propensity for running off at the mouth before familiarising himself with the relevant facts.
The other problem is that he does not have the personality of a leader that can win an election. He simply has not got it.

NickW
02-02-2017, 02:32 PM
A rather significant vote has occurred today, has it not?

Rather surprised there is no comment on it.

It was only the formal second reading of the Bill. The fun comes at the Committee and Report stages of the proceedings where amendments to the Bill are considered prior to the Third reading in the Commons before it goes to the "Other Place" aka the House of Lords. Once their Lordships have finished mangling it it will return to the Commons for them to unmangle. Repeat this process thrice then the Speaker can forward the version agreed by the Commons to Her Majesty for engrossment.

Nick

Peerie Maa
02-02-2017, 02:34 PM
A rather significant vote has occurred today, has it not?

Rather surprised there is no comment on it.

The really interesting debate is the one about whether constituency MPs listen to the views of their constituents and represent them, or meekly obey the 6 month plus old opinion of people who were lied to.

heimfried
02-02-2017, 05:30 PM
[...]
The other problem is that he does not have the personality of a leader that can win an election. He simply has not got it.

As it seems to me, he has not a little bit of interest, to lead. His view of politics is just to oppose and tell the tories, they are wrong and keep the left ideas "clean".

But to help the people really, which rely on labour, means try to become PM, then do real politics instead of talk about politics, and decide things. Sometimes this decisions will be wrong, but someone should do it.

Mr. Corbyn take instead care to the holy graile of leftism.

(Sorry for my try in poor English.)

Peerie Maa
02-02-2017, 05:41 PM
As it seems to me, he has not a little bit of interest, to lead. His view of politics is just to oppose and tell the tories, they are wrong and keep the left ideas "clean".

But to help the people really, which rely on labour, means try to become PM do real politics instead of talk about politics, and decide things. Sometimes this decisions will be wrong, but someone should do it.

Mr. Corbyn take instead care to the holy graile of leftism.

(Sorry for my try in poor English.)

Don't apologise, your message shone through.
I on the other hand tried to learn German, and failed miserably, so you are well ahead.

NickW
02-06-2017, 03:08 PM
Interesting article. I did not know that voting data was collated at the ward level.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034
Local voting figures shed new light on EU referendumPersonally, I dislike the tone of the article. It seems to infer that the elderly white uneducated working class "Deplorables" were to blame for Brexit. Oh Dear.

Nick

TomF
02-06-2017, 03:17 PM
I saw that article this morning too. And yes, the tone got fairly snide, I agree.

That said, the scatter plot diagrams of actual BREXIT vote behaviour is pretty definitive. Those who voted to leave were disproportionately older, fairly uneducated, and white. Those who voted to remain were disproportionately younger, more educated, and multi-ethnic.

As is true with certain brands of populist conservatism in Canada and America, the demographic represented by the "Leave" voters is shrinking, and in even 10 years would not have been large enough to carry the vote.

Peerie Maa
02-06-2017, 03:21 PM
Interesting article. I did not know that voting data was collated at the ward level.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034
Local voting figures shed new light on EU referendum

Personally, I dislike the tone of the article. It seems to infer that the elderly white uneducated working class "Deplorables" were to blame for Brexit. Oh Dear.

Nick

Deplorables is your word not the Beebs, poorly educated (know nothings) is more appropriate. Mind you with the racist hate speech still being reported I'll bet that there is a correlation between Leave votes and the truly deplorable.

NickW
02-06-2017, 03:58 PM
Deplorables is your word not the Beebs, poorly educated (know nothings) is more appropriate. Mind you with the racist hate speech still being reported I'll bet that there is a correlation between Leave votes and the truly deplorable.

Which is why I put it in quotation marks. As for poorly educated, if you mean non graduate then I must disagree. I have known plenty of tradesmen whose understanding of the world is considerably better than many of today's so called graduates, to say nothing of their standard of literacy and numeracy.

Nick

Peerie Maa
02-06-2017, 04:19 PM
Which is why I put it in quotation marks. As for poorly educated, if you mean non graduate then I must disagree. I have known plenty of tradesmen whose understanding of the world is considerably better than many of today's so called graduates, to say nothing of their standard of literacy and numeracy.

Nick

Just so. Time served tradesmen attend college, used to be City and Guilds or Higher National Diploma. The craft apprentice intake still do block release at college here at Barrow. By poorly educated I mean people who have failed to be educated and who fail to add anything to their knowledge base. For example those who did not listen to reports from the Office of National Statistics that stated that immigrants contribute more, and draw down less than the British borne Brits. People like the unemployed of Wisbech who won't do hard miserable farm work but complain about Eastern Europeans taking their jobs.

John Meachen
02-06-2017, 05:11 PM
I have to wonder how many of the group Nick refers to as poorly educated will have worked out that the dodgy cigarettes they currently get from a contact with a European connection may become unavailable with tighter border checks.I also wonder quite how much of the vaunted clean break will materialise,given that the PM seems to expect access to the single market and freedom for European economic migrants to remain.The pick and mix approach may be politically expedient but its hardly likely to deliver what was on offer.

Sky Blue
02-06-2017, 05:14 PM
A friend of mine , originally from NZ and Australia who now lives in France says a lot of Brits he knows are upset that they will now have return to the UK from Europe, some 3 million of them. Many have bought housing in European countries.

Why on earth would they have to return? Is a Trump-like repatriation on the horizon in liberal and enlightened Europe? Perish the thought...

Peerie Maa
02-06-2017, 05:28 PM
Why on earth would they have to return? Is a Trump-like repatriation on the horizon in liberal and enlightened Europe? Perish the thought...

Too early to say, but they may have to apply for visas.

What happens to EU citizens living in the UK?The government has declined to give a firm guarantee about the status of EU nationals currently living in the UK, saying this is not possible without a reciprocal pledge from other EU members about the millions of British nationals living on the continent. EU nationals with a right to permanent residence, which is granted after they have lived in the UK for five years, will be be able to stay, the chief civil servant at the Home Office has said. The rights of other EU nationals would be subject to negotiations on Brexit and the "will of Parliament", he added.
What happens to UK citizens working in the EU?A lot depends on the kind of deal the UK agrees with the EU. If it remains within the single market, it would almost certainly retain free movement rights, allowing UK citizens to work in the EU and vice versa. If the government opted to impose work permit restrictions, then other countries could reciprocate, meaning Britons would have to apply for visas to work.

NickW
02-08-2017, 03:45 PM
The unamended Brexit bill has passed the Commons by 494 votes to 122.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38902484

It now goes to the Lords where the fun and games will start on 20th February.

Nick

heimfried
02-27-2017, 01:46 PM
Sometimes there is a need for old guys to tell what is really on the table.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-john-major-theresa-may-misleading-british-people-a7602651.html
(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-john-major-theresa-may-misleading-british-people-a7602651.html)
Because labour is paralysed, old torys (Major, Heseltine) have to play the role of opposition as it seems to me.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/27/john-major-attacks-government-over-approach-to-brexit

heimfried
03-21-2017, 02:42 PM
I didn't expect any better ideas from the Leavers, but the opinions of the Remainers are to call at least "interesting".

In which way should the EU work?

"Other results show that 82 per cent of Leave voters want EU migrants to be treated in the same way as non-EU migrants and 58 per cent of Remain voters agree.

In addition to this, 51 per cent of Remain voters do not believe EU migrants should claim any welfare benefits, a notion that 77 per cent of Leave voters agree with."

"Professor John Curtice, who wrote the report, said the results of the survey are a clear reflection of the “pick-and-mix attitude” of the electorate. [...]
“Many Remain voters would like to see an end to the less popular parts of Britain’s current membership of the EU, while many Leave voters would like to retain the seemingly more desirable parts, such as free trade, cheap mobile phone calls, and clean beaches,”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-eu-freedom-of-movement-scrap-free-trade-europe-keep-uk-survey-a7641541.html

Peerie Maa
03-21-2017, 04:17 PM
"Professor John Curtice, who wrote the report, said the results of the survey are a clear reflection of the “pick-and-mix attitude” of the electorate. [...]
“Many Remain voters would like to see an end to the less popular parts of Britain’s current membership of the EU, while many Leave voters would like to retain the seemingly more desirable parts, such as free trade, cheap mobile phone calls, and clean beaches,”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-eu-freedom-of-movement-scrap-free-trade-europe-keep-uk-survey-a7641541.html

Here is the report

Key findings

While 65% are sceptical about the EU, and want it to have less power, only 30% support Britain’s withdrawal from the EU.
Nearly half agree that being a member of the EU is ‘undermining Britain’s distinctive identity’ but only around a quarter think Britain’s economy would be better off if we left the EU.
Amongst those who do think Britain’s economy would be better off if we left the EU, 72% support withdrawing. In contrast, amongst those who believe the economy would be worse off, just 6% support leaving.


http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-report/british-social-attitudes-33/euroscepticism.aspx

bob winter
03-21-2017, 05:52 PM
I have no stake in this but my gut feelings are who actually won WW2 and why should Brits be inflicted with European civil servants based in Brussels.

Peerie Maa
03-21-2017, 06:13 PM
I have no stake in this but my gut feelings are who actually won WW2 and why should Brits be inflicted with European civil servants based in Brussels.

Because on balance, it has been good for Britain, both economically, and for quality of life and safety in the workplace.

skuthorp
06-02-2017, 05:00 PM
Your election is beginning to sound more interesting than first thought. Gone seemingly are May's '100 seat majority' and the 'best beard in parliament' might give her a run for her money. It seems that Brexit is a bi-partisan affair, so it's other factors in play.
Later today there's a programme on the election here, but what do Brit. forum protagonists say?

skuthorp
06-04-2017, 01:18 AM
London incident should favour May.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-04-2017, 01:28 AM
Cannot see that making any difference at all.


Did hear the coming vote described as

Marks and Spencer middle management V Retired Geography Teacher

lupussonic
06-04-2017, 05:36 AM
More like unemployed geography teacher...

skuthorp
06-04-2017, 05:54 AM
Doesn't give anyone much confidence does it?

So what's happened to the adults, found private industry more lucrative or did those financial dodgy dealings a few years ago clean them all out?

There is the Queen of course……………….. but if anything happens you get Charlie. Scrub that.

Wet Feet
06-04-2017, 08:09 AM
Cannot see that making any difference at all.

Did hear the coming vote described as
Marks and Spencer middle management V Retired Geography Teacher

Depressing. |:(

Keith Wilson
06-04-2017, 08:09 AM
Latest cover of The Economist. I couldn't find a larger picture, but the caricatures are good, if brutal.

http://i1.piimg.com/527265/3f843e8cad3be82f.png

Wet Feet
06-04-2017, 08:17 AM
Good piece Mr. Wilson.

BRITAIN last voted in a general election just two years ago. Back then, the country was a bridge between the European Union and Barack Obama’s America. Its economy was on the mend after years of squeezed living standards. Scottish independence had just been ruled out. Labour’s most controversial policy was a plan to cap energy prices, denounced as “Marxist” by the Tories, who went on to win.


Today Britain finds itself in a different era. The vote for Brexit has committed it to leaving its biggest trading partner and snuggling closer to others, including a less-welcoming America. The economy has held up better than many feared but growth is slowing; investors are jittery. The union is fraying again. Real wages have stagnated. Public services are stretched.


http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21722855-leaders-both-main-parties-have-turned-away-decades-old-vision-open-liberal

https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/2017/06/articles/main/20170603_ldd001.jpg

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-04-2017, 08:28 AM
Cannot see that making any difference at all.


Did hear the coming vote described as

Marks and Spencer middle management V Retired Geography Teacher

I have an old friend who when we were both much younger was a colleague of mine in Hong Kong. Mark was the sort of chap who could have any woman entranced within five minutes of meeting her, and did, but at one point he got stuck with a Marks and Spencers middle manager. She was ghastly - plain (by his very high standards) possessive, mean spirited and dull. He shook her off in the end and has been happily married for a couple of decades, but the mention of "a Marks and Spencers middle manager" brought the creature to mind.

SKIP KILPATRICK
06-21-2017, 09:17 AM
Sometimes a hat says it all:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/06/21/queen-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWe Z_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.png

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-21-2017, 09:45 AM
Lovely! Well spotted!

heimfried
08-24-2017, 03:56 PM
"The UK wants to continue to influence the writing of parts of EU regulation after Brexit despite leaving the bloc, according to the latest plan by Whitehall officials."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-regulation-position-paper-data-protection-david-davis-a7910196.html
(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-regulation-position-paper-data-protection-david-davis-a7910196.html)
It was said: "Britain want to leave the EU".
As it seems Britain doesn't want to leave the EU, but want to leave the obligations and the responsibilities of the EU and will not pay longer.
But Britain want to keep the benefits and upsides of the EU.

How childish must a government be, to tell the EU27, it would like to "help" setting future rules of the EU.

Peerie Maa
08-24-2017, 03:59 PM
"The UK wants to continue to influence the writing of parts of EU regulation after Brexit despite leaving the bloc, according to the latest plan by Whitehall officials."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-regulation-position-paper-data-protection-david-davis-a7910196.html
(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-regulation-position-paper-data-protection-david-davis-a7910196.html)
It was said: "Britain want to leave the EU".
As it seems Britain doesn't want to leave the EU, but want to leave the obligations and the responsibilities of the EU and will not pay longer.
But Britain want to keep the benefits and upsides of the EU.

How childish must a government be, to tell the EU27, it would like to "help" setting future rules of the EU.

That reminded me of:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

skuthorp
08-24-2017, 04:11 PM
I note migration to Britain is at low, and agriculture is having a hard time finding labour.

"London: Britain's net migration has plummeted to its lowest level since 2014 driven largely by an exodus of EU citizens following last year's Brexit referendum.And two separate sets of data show claims made by Theresa May to justify a crackdown on foreign students purportedly "overstaying" their visas were inaccurate by a margin of at least 90 per cent."

http://www.smh.com.au/world/uk-migration-hits-three-year-low-as-britain-reveals-student-overstayers-are-miniscule-20170824-gy3q22.html

Peerie Maa
08-24-2017, 04:23 PM
^ Yep, uncertainty, a weakened pound and better job prospects elsewhere.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41036236

Matthew Percival, head of employment at the CBI, said EU nationals made a "crucial contribution" to the economy.
"This latest data reflects a trend many businesses have seen - an increase in the number of EU citizens leaving the country," he said.
"The loss of these vital skills should concern us all, underlining the importance of urgently providing certainty for millions of workers and their families."



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-immigration-migrants-freedom-of-movement-labour-industries-trade-hit-hardest-a7118856.html

and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41025082

heimfried
09-21-2017, 05:15 PM
The UK government seems to ruin its negotiating position increasingly.

"If no EU officials are attending Theresa May's Florence speech, then why did she use taxpayers' money to fly herself out there?"

"We have to wonder if Theresa May was surprised, at the UN on Wednesday night, to stare out in to the Grand Assembly Hall and see row on row of empty seats."

"It is reassuring to remember that no one actually ever believed that stuff about leaving the European Union being Britain’s chance to “get out on to the global stage”."

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/florence-theresa-may-un-speech-brexit-no-eu-boris-johnson-single-market-a7960141.html
(http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/florence-theresa-may-un-speech-brexit-no-eu-boris-johnson-single-market-a7960141.html)


The Independent claims also:

"Brexit: Majority of British people believe UK should stay in the EU, finds latest poll"

"Exclusive: The change of heart comes as Theresa May travels to Florence to make a major Brexit speech."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-majority-uk-british-people-stay-in-eu-not-leave-latest-poll-theresa-may-florence-speech-tory-a7960226.html


If that is true, it is late deeper insight, too late may be.

PeterSibley
09-21-2017, 06:15 PM
Sometimes a hat says it all:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/06/21/queen-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWe Z_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.png

A definite clue to Royal preference!

heimfried
10-12-2017, 02:25 PM
It goes worse.

"The latest round of Brexit talks are over – and things look bleaker than ever for the UK"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/brexit-michel-barnier-no-deal-david-davis-theresa-may-philip-hammond-a7997436.html

Like other people around the world, Britons don't like to change their opinion:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-remainers-leavers-this-is-how-to-change-mind-psychology-economy-britain-a7992586.html

Most of Britons have a negative judgement about Trumpism, why don't they realise that the behaviuor of their own Tory government is very much similar to Trumpism?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-12-2017, 02:37 PM
They are mesmerised by Boris The Liar.

skuthorp
10-12-2017, 03:27 PM
It seems that, like an alcoholic, it will require a spell in the gutter to change some minds.

heimfried
10-12-2017, 03:40 PM
It tooks decades until I realised that stupidity is a real danger to the positive development of the society.

I just stumbled over an aticle who tells me, that I'm not alone whith this idea:

"The idea that all opinions are equal is nonsense – believing that gave us Trump as President"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/stupidism-donald-trump-twitter-us-president-fact-truth-age-katie-hopkins-social-media-alex-jones-a7996821.html

obscured by clouds
10-12-2017, 04:31 PM
as Malcom Tucker would say..... ' this has turned into a complete omni-shambles, a cluster-f*** of the first order'

heimfried
10-12-2017, 04:53 PM
May be, it was a cardinal error of the ancestor of the EU long years ago, to give way for the "re-negotiations" demanded by Ms. Thatcher. Since then the Britons always expected (and if not automatically provided, urgently demanded) in most belongings a special treatment that we call in German "Extrawurst".

Because the Britons were always an ally to Germany in the EU north-south-struggle in austerity versus laissez faire in financial matters, the Extrawurst's were accepted here, but not very much liked. You will know, that the french people are much more dismissive to the British stance, than the Germans, because France was more tending to laissez faire. Anyway, 27 member states are not very fond of Extrawurst.

Of course a nation should have the right to leave the EU if it finds we want only an economic agreement, not a political one. But, in this case, is it the right path, to exspect the other 27 members will act completly stupid? The hubris of the Brexiteers tells them they are sitting on the longer lever.

When will they realise, they have only the very short lever and that it is not helpful to call the EU "arrogant" and more? It is not the EU who want to kick out Britain, it is Britain who wants to leave the EU. Until now, there are millions of tax payers money wasted for nothing.

The way things developing at now, I think, the Britons will be economically forced to stay in the EU. (That is not, what I really whish: very sorry, I think it would be much better, Britain would leave, then feel the pain, and ask for new membership. Surely not because of humiliating the Britons, but there will be no other way to teach the leavers.)

The other way round: If Britain leaves and it will prosper after that (without foul play) it will be good for the EU. The EU will have to answer a lot of questions then.

lupussonic
10-12-2017, 05:24 PM
Has the EU (Germany) sorted out Italy's, Spain's, Greece's, Portugal's deficit problems yet? Is Belgium one country again? Where is Spain heading these days?

How secure, bountiful and stable will the EU be in the next 30 years? You talk as if it is all assured Hiemfried, but Brexit might prove to be a shrewd move in the end, however bumpy the transition. A pragmatic balanced opinion might better suit you, unless indeed you CAN actually see the future...?

Extrasausage! Ha!

Peerie Maa
10-12-2017, 05:27 PM
Has the EU (Germany) sorted out Italy's, Spain's, Greece's, Portugal's deficit problems yet? Is Belgium one country again? Where is Spain heading these days?

How secure, bountiful and stable will the EU be in the next 30 years? You talk as if it is all assured Hiemfried, but Brexit might prove to be a shrewd move in the end, however bumpy the transition. A pragmatic balanced opinion might better suit you, unless indeed you CAN actually see the future...?

Extrasausage! Ha!

Where was it you are working this month?

lupussonic
10-12-2017, 05:34 PM
Ive been to 9 European countries this year. I have HMRC authority for the next 2 years, but if we're leaving we're leaving, it's out of my hands, and was not the subject of my post.

lupussonic
10-12-2017, 05:59 PM
BTW, in all the countries I have been in this year, all have customs checks, as well as border security, basic prices for commodities vary vastly, and a passport is mandatory not only to travel but even just to get a hotel. Different country's driving licences are not linked up, working time directives differ greatly, with some identical trades unionised, some not. Clearly not 'one Europe' in practice.

As far as my work goes, I believe I will still be able to work in the EU post Brexit, as there are probably only about 100 people there that can do what I do; besides, I remember the days of work permits, not insurmountable. But this is moot, if I voted at all it would not be for my personal benefit, rather the benefit of a nations population (which I do not feel I belong to particularly).

Did you vote for yourself or your nation Nick? How do you think most people voted? (Informed of not, that's democracy).

Please understand that I love the continent, and have lived and worked there for years; I don't want it to fail. The French election could have ended the whole experiment.. It was closer than many were comfortable with. An example of how fragile it is.

I am disgusted at how Greece has been treated.

Im just bored and irritated by nit pickers always pointing out hiccups in what is a vastly complicated issue, for which they cannot see the other side of the coin, nor the future.

Peerie Maa
10-12-2017, 06:08 PM
BTW, in all the countries I have been in this year, all have customs checks, as well as border security, basic prices for commodities vary vastly, and a passport is mandatory not only to travel but even just to get a hotel. Different country's driving licences are not linked up, working time directives differ greatly, with some identical trades unionised, some not. Clearly not 'one Europe' in practice.

As far as my work goes, I believe I will still be able to work in the EU post Brexit, as there are probably only about 100 people there that can do what I do; besides, I remember the days of work permits, not insurmountable. But this is moot, if I voted at all it would not be for my personal benefit, rather the benefit of a nations population (which I do not feel I belong to particularly).

Did you vote for yourself or your nation Nick? How do you think most people voted? (Informed of not, that's democracy).

Please understand that I love the continent, and have lived and worked there for years; I don't want it to fail. The French election could have ended the whole experiment.. It was closer than many were comfortable with. An example of how fragile it is.

I am disgusted at how Greece has been treated.

Definitely for the nation. As a senior TU rep I have been well informed about the benefits of the EU, I don't read the Daily Wail and so am immune to their extreme RWW views, and I do note things like the Government own statistics on the benefits that immigrants bring to our economy.
So for me the referendum was on a par with the Boaty McBoatface vote and Corbyn's votes.
It was based on lies and misinformation misleading the gullible and bigots amongst us.

lupussonic
10-12-2017, 06:37 PM
All good Nick. But..

What's Putin planning?

Where is Italy's economy heading?

What is Hungary's political future?

Why does Spain have 25% youth unemployment?

Why does property in N. Portugal cost about half of that in Galicia, it's neighbour?

What is the US policy in Palestine going to be in 10 years, and how might that affect Europe?

What are OPEC's plans for oil prices for the next 20 years?

What is the future of N Sea gas?

What are China's steel prices going to be in 10 years?

What is the UK energy strategy in 50 years time?

A few questions I would have asked myself, if I had voted. To bleat on about Brexit Bad is simplistic, partisan and unbalanced in my opinion.

BTW I have read the Daily Mail twice, about 30 years ago. Jonathan Cainor was the best of it.

heimfried
10-13-2017, 03:39 AM
To express my "simplistic, partisan and unbalanced" opinon:

Brexit is nothing else, than the attempt of getting rid of all the limitating EU rules regarding e. g. workers rights, consumers rights and environmental regulations in favour of the rich and the superrich Britons.

For this purpose the feelings of the electorate were heated up before Brexit poll with a little help from Mr. Putin and US opinionmaker Mr. Mercer.

The poorer part of Britons will pay for it.

Peerie Maa
10-13-2017, 03:59 AM
To express my "simplistic, partisan and unbalanced" opinon:

Brexit is nothing else, than the attempt of getting rid of all the limitating EU rules regarding e. g. workers rights, consumers rights and environmental regulations in favour of the rich and the superrich Britons.

For this purpose the feelings of the electorate were heated up before Brexit poll with a little help from Mr. Putin and US opinionmaker Mr. Mercer.

The poorer part of Britons will pay for it.

This.

heimfried
10-13-2017, 04:07 AM
Has the EU (Germany) sorted out Italy's, Spain's, Greece's, Portugal's deficit problems yet? Is Belgium one country again? Where is Spain heading these days?

How secure, bountiful and stable will the EU be in the next 30 years? You talk as if it is all assured Hiemfried, but Brexit might prove to be a shrewd move in the end, however bumpy the transition. A pragmatic balanced opinion might better suit you, unless indeed you CAN actually see the future...?

Extrasausage! Ha!

There are a lot of unsolved problems in the EU, naturally. I did't say, it is the best thing ever to be a member. EU is a workplace and has to deal with its problems and try to solve.

Which of the British problems (NHS, housing/homelessness, ...) can be solved better after Brexit?

As I said above: "If Britain leaves and it will prosper after that (without foul play) it will be good for the EU. The EU will have to answer a lot of questions then"

lupussonic
10-13-2017, 07:16 AM
Hysterics as usual ^.

"A vile bunch of racists" ?

If anything, xenophobics, but that's wrong too. We are a highly liberal society that has welcomed people from overseas for a very long time indeed. Please explain your comment ACB?

Peerie Maa
10-13-2017, 07:25 AM
Hysterics as usual ^.

"A vile bunch of racists" ?

If anything, xenophobics, but that's wrong too. We are a highly liberal society that has welcomed people from overseas for a very long time indeed. Please explain your comment ACB?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/racist-hate-crimes-surge-to-record-high-after-brexit-vote-new-figures-reveal-a7829551.html

http://www.irr.org.uk/app/uploads/2016/11/Racial-violence-and-the-Brexit-state-final.pdf

skaraborgcraft
10-13-2017, 07:25 AM
For this purpose the feelings of the electorate were heated up before Brexit poll with a little help from Mr. Putin and US opinionmaker Mr. Mercer.

I do not recall Putin saying anything other than along the lines of the British people should decide for themselves what is best for them.......on the other hand, Obama was making it very clear that if the UK left the EU, it would have to join a queue when it came to discussions of trade......but then the "special relationship" was always a bit of a myth....

heimfried
10-13-2017, 07:32 AM
I do not recall Putin saying anything other than along the lines of the British people should decide for themselves what is best for them..[...].

I meant the "troll factories" in St. Petersburg, which were creating hundreds of fake british profiles in the social media and influenced the peoples opinon.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/david-jones-pro-brexit-ukip-twitter-account-russia-fake-bot-troll-trump-disinformation-followers-a7920181.html

.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/revealed-putins-army-of-pro-kremlin-bloggers-10138893.html

lupussonic
10-13-2017, 09:49 AM
As regrettable and abhorrent as the murder of Jo Cox was, to use that as a basis to claim you now live in a country of fascists and racists is ridiculous. Might as well say we are all crazy murderers because of Raoul Moat.

Does the fact that we have a Muslim mayor of London mean nothing to you? The overwhelming majority of people I meet everyday love our diversity.

Im an uncle to 4 mixed ethnicity children, none of which has experienced racism. Nicks links show a rise from 40,000 to 50,000 incidents of racial violence around the Brexit vote; out of aprox 25,000,000 people who voted to leave. Every incident is awful, but it was hardly Kristalnacht. It is possible Andrew, that many voted out because of reasons other than immigration. Cornwall voted out, and they've hardly heard of brown bread, it was mostly over fishing rights I think.

Where are are you going to go then? USA? Brazil? France? Russia? South Africa? Name any country you like, and I'll find some home grown fascism for you to face.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-13-2017, 10:24 AM
I do not want to trespass upon the good nature of our American hosts by continuing this disagreement with you.

Canoeyawl
10-13-2017, 11:57 AM
I do not recall Putin saying anything other than along the lines of the British people should decide for themselves what is best for them.......

In the same way Ukrainians and Georgians should decide what is best for them.

Believing anything Putin says is just nuts, and making policy decisions on those words? Oh my!

Osborne Russell
10-13-2017, 12:06 PM
I do not want to trespass upon the good nature of our American hosts by continuing this disagreement with you.

I thought you were just beginning to hit your stride.

No doubt there are particular details of British politics, but it's a western civ problem. Brexit is happening, but the advocacy of it often appears illogical, because people expect it to accomplish some sort of de-globalization or whatever they manage to call it. That's how you can get Americans cheering for Brexit and Catalonian independence. As you said, IIRC, there is a huge racial component.


Islamists are not on the verge of seizing power in any advanced Western democracy or even winning significant political influence at the polls.

The same cannot be said of white nationalists, who today are on the march from Charlottesville, Va., to Dresden, Germany. As an ideology, white nationalism poses a significantly greater threat to Western democracies; its proponents and sympathizers have proved, historically and recently, that they can win a sizable share of the vote — as they did this year in France, Germany and the Netherlands — and even win power, as they have in the United States.

Far-right leaders are correct that immigration creates problems; what they miss is that they are the primary problem. The greatest threat to liberal democracies does not come from immigrants and refugees but from the backlash against them by those on the inside who are exploiting fear of outsiders to chip away at the values and institutions that make our societies liberal.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/opinion/sunday/white-nationalism-threat-islam-america.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region

lupussonic
10-13-2017, 01:41 PM
I thought you were just beginning to hit your stride.


My experience of GB is different to ACB's. I have lived in Willesden ( N.London, 4 years) St Mary's (Southampton, 4 years) Easton (Bristol, 3 years) and Wolverhampton (2 years); all poor, highly multi-ethnic areas, a very long way from "deeply middle class and fashionable" (read expensive, almost exclusively white) area he lives in, with perhaps the greatest mix of nationalities and racial mixes on the planet living side by side. Everyone gets on with each other, never a problem, and actually great fun, highly tolerant and understanding. I'm talking about high levels of Indian, Bangladeshi, Nepali, Somalian, Carribean, Polish, Lithuanian, Romanian, Chinese, Irish, Algerian, Brasilian, Vietnamese, S.African, New Zealander, Pakistani, Russian, Italian, Spanish, and even Scottish. A really thriving international community.

Vive la différence, but I simply do not recognise the 'fascist and racist' country ACB describes. A few bad apples do not a nation make.

Peerie Maa
10-13-2017, 02:03 PM
My experience of GB is different to ACB's. I have lived in Willesden ( N.London, 4 years) St Mary's (Southampton, 4 years) Easton (Bristol, 3 years) and Wolverhampton (2 years); all poor, highly multi-ethnic areas, a very long way from "deeply middle class and fashionable" (read expensive, almost exclusively white) area he lives in, with perhaps the greatest mix of nationalities and racial mixes on the planet living side by side. Everyone gets on with each other, never a problem, and actually great fun, highly tolerant and understanding. I'm talking about high levels of Indian, Bangladeshi, Nepali, Somalian, Carribean, Polish, Lithuanian, Romanian, Chinese, Irish, Algerian, Brasilian, Vietnamese, S.African, New Zealander, Pakistani, Russian, Italian, Spanish, and even Scottish. A really thriving international community.

Vive la différence, but I simply do not recognise the 'fascist and racist' country ACB describes. A few bad apples do not a nation make.

Read this and weep :https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/467369/hosb0515-apptabs.ods Go to table 2.01

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-13-2017, 03:41 PM
I thought you were just beginning to hit your stride.

No doubt there are particular details of British politics, but it's a western civ problem. Brexit is happening, but the advocacy of it often appears illogical, because people expect it to accomplish some sort of de-globalization or whatever they manage to call it. That's how you can get Americans cheering for Brexit and Catalonian independence. As you said, IIRC, there is a huge racial component.

Perfectly happy to continue a conversation with you, Osborne. However our friend who requires a tug is someone whom I suspect to be a right wing troll, of the kind who is at pains to appear sweetly reasonable whilst being as cleverly offensive as possible, so I have put him on "ignore"since my remaining years are too few for me to wish to be distracted by the sort of fellow who uses a sexual innuedo as a descriptor.

The murder of the MP Jo Cox was shocking in itself, but what was almost as shocking was the speed with which the shoulders of the Quitlings sloped. They were at pains to seed the narrative that the killer was a demented loner, and took no responsibility at all for his state of mind.

I very much agree with the excerpt from the NYT which you posted.

lupussonic
10-13-2017, 03:59 PM
Can't open your link Nick.

Too to bad you have me in ignore ACB, preferring to opt out of the debate. I am not RW at all, and I'm prepared to meet you, share a coffee or dram and prove to you as much. Is this your standard MO for those who disagree with you? I'm sorry if you don't find my 'descriptor' humourous, hardly a reason not to engage with me. I am very far from a troll, and I think my posts here on WBF show that. All I have asked for in this thread is a balanced view, if that's too much for you then so be it.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-13-2017, 04:17 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/i/moments/918802322368626688

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-13-2017, 04:25 PM
I recall that our friend makes much of the election of a competent member of the Labour centre right as Mayor of London. The campaign against him by his opponent, a Tory who inherited many millions, was a foetid mass of dog whistle racism.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/07/top-conservatives-condemn-zac-goldsmiths-disgusting-mayoral-campaign

Peerie Maa
10-13-2017, 04:27 PM
Can't open your link Nick.



You need Microsoft Exel.
Hate crimes, England and Wales 2014 to 2015 - Appendix Tables



Police force area
Race3











Cleveland
425



Durham
191



Northumbria
782



North East
1,398








Cheshire
535



Cumbria
182



Greater Manchester
3,196



Lancashire
645



Merseyside
1,653



North West
6,211








Humberside4
427



North Yorkshire
176



South Yorkshire
652



West Yorkshire
1,882



Yorkshire and the Humber
3,137








Derbyshire
413



Leicestershire
807



Lincolnshire
158



Northamptonshire
409



Nottinghamshire
690



East Midlands
2,477








Staffordshire
703



Warwickshire
171



West Mercia
460



West Midlands
3,023



West Midlands
4,357








Bedfordshire
454



Cambridgeshire
403



Essex
940



Hertfordshire
727



Norfolk
378



Suffolk
291



East of England
3,193








London, City of
54



Metropolitan Police
11,540



London
11,594








Hampshire
1,137



Kent
788



Surrey
536



Sussex
973



Thames Valley
1,074



South East
4,508








Avon and Somerset
1,430



Devon and Cornwall
658



Dorset
222



Gloucestershire
173



Wiltshire
258



South West
2,741








Dyfed-Powys
72



Gwent
210



North Wales
293



South Wales
1,102



Wales
1,677








British Transport Police
1,637








England and Wales
42,930

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-13-2017, 04:58 PM
The outlook for British politics is grim. The "established parties" are not really all that well established any more. The Labour Party was the party of the working class, organised through the trades unions - Nick is a TU organiser and I am a TU member - and the intelligentsia. The working class has shrivelled away, as have the unions, and the intelligentsia is busy looking for it and not finding it. Consequently a renewed assault by the Trotskites who were "seen off" in the 1980's and 1990's has suceeded in gaining control of the party. The Conservative Party felt threatened by the neo-Fascists of UKIP and Mrs May "solved" that problem by moving the Conservative Party onto UKIP's ground, adopting UKIP's signature policies. The Trots in the Labour Party dislike the EU on ideological grounds (EU rules on state aid to industry would put a stop to the massive bail outs that their industrial strategy, unchanged since the 1970's (remember Triumph motorcycles at Meriden?) and their leader, John MacDonnell, has chosen an anti-EU position in the belief that this will attract the racist vote in the North-East. Labour is in fact two parties - the northern party, which, outside Liverpool, is becoming more Poujadist by the day, and the London party, led by the likes of Chuka Umunna and Sadiq Khan, which is pro-EU, optimistic and multi cultural. The gap between these two wings is huge, and is exploited by the Trots.

The risk that a populist campaign based on the idea that "Brexit was stolen by a stab in the back" could suceed is a real one.

lupussonic
10-13-2017, 05:03 PM
Thank you Nick.. I only have my phone ATM.

What are we to make of these figures? Alone they do not give any comparison to other years, or other countries, or put Brexit in any context. Any hate crime is lamentable of course. No need to post comparisons if you don't feel like it, not trying to make you work, I'll do my own research when I get to some wifi. Presently each page takes 10 mins to load so for me it's heavy going.

lupussonic
10-13-2017, 05:09 PM
I recall that our friend makes much of the election of a competent member of the Labour centre right as Mayor of London. The campaign against him by his opponent, a Tory who inherited many millions, was a foetid mass of dog whistle racism.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/07/top-conservatives-condemn-zac-goldsmiths-disgusting-mayoral-campaign

Is that directed at me?

Peerie Maa
10-13-2017, 05:16 PM
Thank you Nick.. I only have my phone ATM.

What are we to make of these figures? Alone they do not give any comparison to other years, or other countries, or put Brexit in any context. Any hate crime is lamentable of course. No need to post comparisons if you don't feel like it, not trying to make you work, I'll do my own research when I get to some wifi. Presently each page takes 10 mins to load so for me it's heavy going.
It takes time to compile the Stats, . I dare say the the statd=s for 15-16 will be out soon. Previous stats will be on the same departments web site.
It is very clear that the Brexit vote gave "legitimacy" to the racists. There are plenty of reports in the press quoting abuse along the lines of "You can go back home now" and so on, as well as the reports that hate crime has increased since the vote.

Peerie Maa
10-13-2017, 05:24 PM
The outlook for British politics is grim.


Yes, the outlook is not good.
Neither party have any statesmen of any substance.
Corbyn is a sort of Wedgy Lite with his head stuck firmly in the '70's, whilst the Torys have Boris, the Slithy Tove and Reese Mogg in the wings. The only Tory that looks credible at the moment is Hammond, so he might not last.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-13-2017, 05:30 PM
Yes, the outlook is not good.
Neither party have any statesmen of any substance.
Corbyn is a sort of Wedgy Lite with his head stuck firmly in the '70's, whilst the Torys have Boris, the Slithy Tove and Reese Mogg in the wings. The only Tory that looks credible at the moment is Hammond, so he might not last.

Hammond is certainly in the target zone. I assume that he is assured of backing by seniors in the Party.

The Labour substitute team - Chuka Umunna and co - do look credible. But the Trots will block them. I foresee an SDP mark two - which would not be a good outcome.

lupussonic
10-13-2017, 05:33 PM
It takes time to compile the Stats, . I dare say the the statd=s for 15-16 will be out soon. Previous stats will be on the same departments web site.
It is very clear that the Brexit vote gave "legitimacy" to the racists. There are plenty of reports in the press quoting abuse along the lines of "You can go back home now" and so on, as well as the reports that hate crime has increased since the vote.

Yes, ligitimacy to the racists was unpleasant and palpable during the election, however it was a minority's reaction, and not, I think a ligitimate reason to state that the UK is a state of 'racists and fascists', nor a place to run from. As I previously stated, my experience, amongst diverse groups in various places has been the opposite. I love and cherish our diversity.

PeterSibley
10-13-2017, 05:40 PM
My sympathy is for the Brits now living comfortably in retirement in various parts of Europe who will have to sell up in a buyer's market and go back to Britain. They have really been screwed!

lupussonic
10-13-2017, 06:05 PM
Have they been served notice?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-14-2017, 01:13 AM
There was a time when Spain was a great power - controlling an empire that girdled the world - making fortunes from the trade.

Later there was a time when Britain ......

Shabby chic.

PeterSibley
10-14-2017, 02:52 AM
Have they been served notice?

They will be.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-uk-citizens-eu-live-abroad-europe-lose-right-move-member-states-a7851381.html

heimfried
10-14-2017, 03:08 AM
[...] As I previously stated, my experience, amongst diverse groups in various places has been the opposite. [...]

I lived nearly 30 years in Wedding, which is a poorer part of Berlin with a high share of foreigners, I didn't notice any problems in this regard. (The last few years we had our little adoptive daughter with a very dark brown skin.)

Xenophobia and racism grows most, where nearly no foreigners are. The far right and nationalistic German AfD got its largest share of votes in south east saxony.

varadero
10-14-2017, 04:04 AM
I am entitled to an Irish passport, born in Belfast, the application will be made as soon as I return to the UK. I feel most unsettled after the last couple of years, with Scottish independence, Brexit, and now the Catalans kicking off. I believe Yorkshire are now starting to make noises.

skuthorp
10-14-2017, 04:10 AM
A British cousin has several properties in Spain and Portugal. Lives there most of the time. I wonder how he will fare?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-14-2017, 05:50 AM
Might be better taking spanish citizenship.....

varadero
10-14-2017, 05:54 AM
Might be better taking spanish citizenship.....
Entitled to it, but I would have to renounce my British citizenship to do so. I am also staunchly British. Irish passport would only be to retain my, and my children's, access to Europe.

lupussonic
10-14-2017, 07:29 AM
Spain has its own brand of state sponsored fascism.

Not scenes from Scotland during their referendum, below.

4601

4602

Osborne Russell
10-16-2017, 01:31 PM
My experience of GB is different to ACB's. I have lived in Willesden ( N.London, 4 years) St Mary's (Southampton, 4 years) Easton (Bristol, 3 years) and Wolverhampton (2 years); all poor, highly multi-ethnic areas, a very long way from "deeply middle class and fashionable" (read expensive, almost exclusively white) area he lives in, with perhaps the greatest mix of nationalities and racial mixes on the planet living side by side. Everyone gets on with each other, never a problem, and actually great fun, highly tolerant and understanding. I'm talking about high levels of Indian, Bangladeshi, Nepali, Somalian, Carribean, Polish, Lithuanian, Romanian, Chinese, Irish, Algerian, Brasilian, Vietnamese, S.African, New Zealander, Pakistani, Russian, Italian, Spanish, and even Scottish. A really thriving international community.

Vive la différence, but I simply do not recognise the 'fascist and racist' country ACB describes. A few bad apples do not a nation make.

1. Dude, they got after his children.

2. In my American experience, in situations working class and below, bigotry may get expressed a lot, but no one has much power to do anything, and it's not in their interest. Going up in class from there, there is every bit as much bigotry and people do have power to act on it. And so the "racist society" label is justified. It's like buttered toast. Not every square centimeter has butter on it, but you still call it buttered toast.

Osborne Russell
10-16-2017, 01:44 PM
Perfectly happy to continue a conversation with you, Osborne. However our friend who requires a tug is someone whom I suspect to be a right wing troll, of the kind who is at pains to appear sweetly reasonable whilst being as cleverly offensive as possible, so I have put him on "ignore"since my remaining years are too few for me to wish to be distracted by the sort of fellow who uses a sexual innuedo as a descriptor.

The murder of the MP Jo Cox was shocking in itself, but what was almost as shocking was the speed with which the shoulders of the Quitlings sloped. They were at pains to seed the narrative that the killer was a demented loner, and took no responsibility at all for his state of mind.

I very much agree with the excerpt from the NYT which you posted.

Not much of a conversation. I don't know much about England, so I read. Often I think, gosh, that sounds very much like the United States.

Like with Bush 2 and Trump, you have to go through contortions to discount the bigotry. Especially when there's violence. I would expect a decent person to take more responsibility than many might fasten upon him, in order to uphold decency. That's the English way, I thought.

Then there's these Englishmen sniffing around America like Piers Morgan and Nigel Farage. They sniff the money obviously, but is that all? Something is hinky. The idea of an English politician over here stumping for Roy Moore

4675


just does not compute.

Peerie Maa
10-16-2017, 02:24 PM
Then there's these Englishmen sniffing around America like Piers Morgan and Nigel Farage. They sniff the money obviously, but is that all? Something is hinky. The idea of an English politician over here stumping for Roy Moore




just does not compute.

Piers Morgan? You are welcome to him.

Morgan began his journalism career in Fleet Street (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_Street) as a writer and editor for several tabloid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid_journalism) papers, including The Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_(United_Kingdom)), News of the World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_of_the_World) and the Daily Mirror (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mirror). In 1994, aged 29, he was appointed editor of the News of the World by Rupert Murdoch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch), which made him the youngest editor of a British national newspaper in more than half a century.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Morgan#cite_note-Insider-2) He later edited the Daily Mirror, and was in charge during the period that the paper was implicated in the phone hacking scandal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_International_phone_hacking_scandal). In 2011 Morgan denied having ever hacked a phone or "to my knowledge published any story obtained from the hacking of a phone". In 2012 he was heavily criticised in the findings of the Leveson Inquiry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leveson_Inquiry), when the chair Brian Leveson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Leveson) stated that comments made in Morgan's testimony about phone hacking were "utterly unpersuasive" and "clearly prove ... that he was aware that it was taking place in the press as a whole and that he was sufficiently unembarrassed by what was criminal behaviour that he was prepared to joke about it".[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Morgan#cite_note-Mark_Sweney-3)
The Sun and the News of the Screws are hardly respectable broadsheets.
If Cameron had a backbone, had ignored the Swivel Eyed Loon, and had told his Little Englander back benchers to calm down, we would not be facing the current fustercluck we have now foisted upon us. So all in all, you are welcome to both of them.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-18-2017, 04:52 AM
Not much of a conversation. I don't know much about England, so I read. Often I think, gosh, that sounds very much like the United States.

Like with Bush 2 and Trump, you have to go through contortions to discount the bigotry. Especially when there's violence. I would expect a decent person to take more responsibility than many might fasten upon him, in order to uphold decency. That's the English way, I thought.

Then there's these Englishmen sniffing around America like Piers Morgan and Nigel Farage. They sniff the money obviously, but is that all? Something is hinky. The idea of an English politician over here stumping for Roy Moore

4675


just does not compute.

As Nick says, the likes of Piers Morgan and Nigel Farage are after the money, and they also seek some of the media attention that they can stir up in the States. As nick says, please don't feel under any obligation to send them back here.

Yes, you are very right about the bigotry. There has been a consensus - which is not the same thing as a conspiracy - since the 1960's, when a Tory campaigned for Birmingham Stechford under the slogan "if you want a (word no longer in use) for a neighbour, vote Labour" and certainly since the late Ted Heath sacked the late Enoch Powell from his Shadow Cabinet, that bigotry is common and ought not to be encouraged. if we had a referendum on the death penalty, or on the repression of the rights of homosexuals or single mothers, there would be majorities for all three, but in the opinion of all right thinking people, such attitudes are reprehensible.

Farage and his ilk have broken with the rules and encouraged bigotry.