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SKIP KILPATRICK
08-14-2016, 10:19 AM
Thousands of protesters at march in Richmond demand $15 minimum wage!
Amazing, even in the extreme heat yesterday, between 10,000 and 15,000 people marched in protest from Monroe Park to The General Robert E. Lee statue to demand a $15 minimum wage.

http://www.richmond.com/business/local/article_8da35471-6ccf-5b94-97f0-d811e25a3937.html

leikec
08-14-2016, 10:26 AM
$15 an hour to protest?


Good work if you can get it.

Jeff C

Jim Mahan
08-14-2016, 10:28 AM
$15 an hour to protest?

:) That's how I read it, too.

Hugh Conway
08-14-2016, 10:29 AM
$15 an hour to protest?

That's only when the RNC fly's them down to Florida to protest vote counting.

SKIP KILPATRICK
08-14-2016, 10:41 AM
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/3630683.jpg


Saturday’s march ended at the Robert E. Lee statue on Monument Avenue, where the Rev. Dr. William J. Barber II, leader of North Carolina’s chapter of the NAACP, gave an energetic speech. “Right now you’re helping to fight for a third Reconstruction in this country,” Barber said.

“Labor without livable wages is nothing but a pseudo-form of slavery.”

Too Little Time
08-14-2016, 10:56 AM
“Labor without livable wages is nothing but a pseudo-form of slavery.”
A lot of families choose to have 2 wage earners. $15/hour translates to $60K/year for those families. That is above the median.

Higher wages in not a cure to lack of jobs or lack of education. But it sure sounds good.

SKIP KILPATRICK
08-14-2016, 11:06 AM
Higher wages in not a cure to lack of jobs or lack of education. But it sure sounds good.

I agree! I don't think a $15 minimum wage is realistic goal. But, I believe the current minimum wage needs to be raised. To what minimum??

McMike
08-14-2016, 11:12 AM
A lot of families choose to have 2 wage earners. $15/hour translates to $60K/year for those families. That is above the median.

Higher wages in not a cure to lack of jobs or lack of education. But it sure sounds good.

You are so damned out of touch it hurts.

McMike
08-14-2016, 11:40 AM
I agree! I don't think a $15 minimum wage is realistic goal. But, I believe the current minimum wage needs to be raised. To what minimum??

A new, more relevant CPI needs to be created. One that includes health insurance, housing, and transportation. It also needs to be regional.

Taking my car payment ($300/month) out of the equation, because it's a luxury, it cost's my girlfriend and I $3700/month to just live, that's with no discretionary spending, it also excludes clothing. That requires a $60,000/year income, before taxes. We live in an 1100sf beater house that I'm renovating a little at a time. We also have no kids. We're not living high on the hog. If we had only one of our incomes, we would not be able to save at all, we would have to live in a high crime neighborhood, our health insurance would only be for catastrophic events an I'd owe $20,000 for an ER visit last year, in essence I'd have been bankrupt.

$15/hr is not a living wage, it's a subsistence wage, and two people making it full time would still need state aid if they had children. So 15 isn't even enough, it's still not moral, it's still not a fair compensation, but it's better. Here's the thing; we can't expect singular business to do it on their own, they can't afford to and still compete in the market place, forcing all business to do it is the only way. What I think will be interesting is the economic boom that will follow, more money in the hands of those who will spend it will raise all boats, including the wealthy.

Hugh Conway
08-14-2016, 12:42 PM
You are so damned out of touch it hurts.

Always remember it's willful.

Phil Y
08-14-2016, 04:56 PM
A lot of families choose to have 2 wage earners. $15/hour translates to $60K/year for those families. That is above the median.

Higher wages in not a cure to lack of jobs or lack of education. But it sure sounds good.

Just can't help myself. I should just ignore this sort of stupidity. That 60k median. Is that median household income, or median wage? I'm guessing it's the latter. And you are saying these poor people are doing well because with both parents working they can actually crack the median individual wage? Man that is some weird kinda thinking.

FWIW here in Oz our minimum wage is around $18.00 I think. Impossible really to compare our economies overall, but it seems to work and I'd say our working poor are much, much, better off than yours, and that overall our economy is doing better and our people, rich, poor, and in the middle, happier. Oh and better health care, social security, less violence, less social division. Of course there are a million reasons for that, all I'm saying is a decent minimum wage isn't actually a bad thing.

Hugh Conway
08-14-2016, 05:07 PM
FWIW here in Oz our minimum wage is around $18.00 I think. Impossible really to compare our economies overall, but it seems to work and I'd say our working poor are much, much, better off than yours, and that overall our economy is doing better and our people, rich, poor, and in the middle, happier. Oh and better health care, social security, less violence, less social division. Of course there are a million reasons for that, all I'm saying is a decent minimum wage isn't actually a bad thing.

But our poor have Freedom. Don't ask them, ask the rich people, they'll tell you our poor have freedom.

Phil Y
08-14-2016, 05:35 PM
But our poor have Freedom. Don't ask them, ask the rich people, they'll tell you our poor have freedom.
They have guns, that's what they have.

Hugh Conway
08-14-2016, 05:38 PM
They have guns, that's what they have.

How else will they ever be able to fight off oppressors?

PeterSibley
08-14-2016, 06:43 PM
How else will they ever be able to fight off oppressors? and get $15 per hour wages .

John Smith
08-14-2016, 07:05 PM
It's not like we don't have evidence. States that have increased their minimum wage have had better economies than those states that have not.

The very first time I saw Hillary Clinton in action was at a round table discussion of the minimum wage. She was the only one of the dozen or so people involved that brought studies and data from previous increases. When someone said, "People lose jobs when the minimum wage is increased." She challenged them to find one.

I was impressed. She had done her homework, and had evidence to back up her position. Everyone else just seemed to repeat the talking points of the day.

epoxyboy
08-15-2016, 01:31 AM
$15.25 in NZ. The sky hasn't fallen, unemployment is at a relatively low 5.2%, business carries on.
My 19yo is earning more than this, six months into a heavy transport apprenticeship.

Pete

Rum_Pirate
08-15-2016, 07:21 AM
A new, more relevant CPI needs to be created. One that includes health insurance, housing, and transportation. It also needs to be regional.

Taking my car payment ($300/month) out of the equation, because it's a luxury, it cost's my girlfriend and I $3700/month to just live, that's with no discretionary spending, it also excludes clothing. That requires a $60,000/year income, before taxes. We live in an 1100sf beater house that I'm renovating a little at a time. We also have no kids. We're not living high on the hog. If we had only one of our incomes, we would not be able to save at all, we would have to live in a high crime neighborhood, our health insurance would only be for catastrophic events an I'd owe $20,000 for an ER visit last year, in essence I'd have been bankrupt.

$15/hr is not a living wage, it's a subsistence wage, and two people making it full time would still need state aid if they had children. So 15 isn't even enough, it's still not moral, it's still not a fair compensation, but it's better. Here's the thing; we can't expect singular business to do it on their own, they can't afford to and still compete in the market place, forcing all business to do it is the only way. What I think will be interesting is the economic boom that will follow, more money in the hands of those who will spend it will raise all boats, including the wealthy.


What is a 'beater house' ?

Waddie
08-15-2016, 07:27 AM
$15.25 in NZ. The sky hasn't fallen, unemployment is at a relatively low 5.2%, business carries on.
My 19yo is earning more than this, six months into a heavy transport apprenticeship.

Pete

What's the average home cost in NZ?

regards,
Waddie

Waddie
08-15-2016, 07:28 AM
It's not like we don't have evidence. States that have increased their minimum wage have had better economies than those states that have not.

The very first time I saw Hillary Clinton in action was at a round table discussion of the minimum wage. She was the only one of the dozen or so people involved that brought studies and data from previous increases. When someone said, "People lose jobs when the minimum wage is increased." She challenged them to find one.

I was impressed. She had done her homework, and had evidence to back up her position. Everyone else just seemed to repeat the talking points of the day.


Those states had better economies BEFORE they raised the minimum wage. They are also high cost of living states.

regards,
Waddie

peb
08-15-2016, 08:23 AM
A new, more relevant CPI needs to be created. One that includes health insurance, housing, and transportation. It also needs to be regional.

Taking my car payment ($300/month) out of the equation, because it's a luxury, it cost's my girlfriend and I $3700/month to just live, that's with no discretionary spending, it also excludes clothing. That requires a $60,000/year income, before taxes. We live in an 1100sf beater house that I'm renovating a little at a time. We also have no kids. We're not living high on the hog. If we had only one of our incomes, we would not be able to save at all, we would have to live in a high crime neighborhood, our health insurance would only be for catastrophic events an I'd owe $20,000 for an ER visit last year, in essence I'd have been bankrupt.

$15/hr is not a living wage, it's a subsistence wage, and two people making it full time would still need state aid if they had children. So 15 isn't even enough, it's still not moral, it's still not a fair compensation, but it's better. Here's the thing; we can't expect singular business to do it on their own, they can't afford to and still compete in the market place, forcing all business to do it is the only way. What I think will be interesting is the economic boom that will follow, more money in the hands of those who will spend it will raise all boats, including the wealthy.

Here is the problem, I have no problem with a 15 dollar minimum wage for those who need that much for living purposes. But if the minimum wage goes up, I am sure the job opportunities for my teenagers will drop significantly. What they make is a significant part of how their college gets paid. Its already impossible for a 15 year old to find a summer job, and its tough for a 16 year old. I would take it in the shorts quite drastically, not to mention the lack of work experience my kids get every summer through high school and college.

It reminds me of the ObamaCare situation. My premiums go up $600/month in the first 2 years of ObamaCare, after only going up $300/month over the previous 9 years, and that is with the deductible more than doubling from 6K/year to over $12K/year. Yet I am not supposed to complain because it helps so many people. I don't understand why I have to get screwed on these things. Sorry if that sounds selfish. But how many people are trying to live on minimum wage, as opposed to how many live-at-home teenagers and young adults get paid that much? I have yet to see any plan to adjust minimum wage take this into account.

Too Little Time
08-15-2016, 08:43 AM
You are so damned out of touch it hurts.

...

Taking my car payment ($300/month) out of the equation, because it's a luxury, it cost's my girlfriend and I $3700/month to just live, that's with no discretionary spending, it also excludes clothing. That requires a $60,000/year income, before taxes. We live in an 1100sf beater house that I'm renovating a little at a time. We also have no kids. We're not living high on the hog. If we had only one of our incomes, we would not be able to save at all, we would have to live in a high crime neighborhood, our health insurance would only be for catastrophic events an I'd owe $20,000 for an ER visit last year, in essence I'd have been bankrupt.

$15/hr is not a living wage, it's a subsistence wage, and two people making it full time would still need state aid if they had children. So 15 isn't even enough, it's still not moral, it's still not a fair compensation, but it's better. Here's the thing; we can't expect singular business to do it on their own, they can't afford to and still compete in the market place, forcing all business to do it is the only way. What I think will be interesting is the economic boom that will follow, more money in the hands of those who will spend it will raise all boats, including the wealthy.
Perhaps you should live in a place where the income you can earn supports the lifestyle you think you deserve.

I thought the ACA solved the insurance issue.


Just can't help myself. I should just ignore this sort of stupidity. That 60k median. Is that median household income, or median wage? I'm guessing it's the latter. And you are saying these poor people are doing well because with both parents working they can actually crack the median individual wage? Man that is some weird kinda thinking.
The median US household income is a bit over $50K/year. And it is very close to the median individual income.

I am saying that the annual income that a $15/hour minimum wage produces is $60K. Not the $30K many would like us to believe. But it takes both adults working. Many couples do that.

Equally important is the fact that those without jobs don't get a wage. And, of course, no matter how much people earn, most claim that they need more. A minimum wage is a poor way to solve a "living wage" problem.

Waddie
08-15-2016, 08:52 AM
Over half of minimum wage workers are single women with kids. $15 per hour won't get them off government assistance. But add in the government assistance they already get plus the earned income tax refund they also get and they are at or over the $15 minimum wage. So $15 per hour is not a cure for being unskilled in the work force. There is only one way out of poverty for the common person; fix the public education system so these people are trainable in the first place. Then get them trained on better jobs. Minimum wage jobs should not be thought of as careers; they can be a stepping stone to something better.

regards,
Waddie

peb
08-15-2016, 09:17 AM
FYI (2013 data):



Only 24% are teenagers.
50 % of 16-24, the age of my teenagers and college kids.

Waddie
08-15-2016, 09:39 AM
This isn't really about minimum wage. It's about scaling up all wages. What do you say to the person who is currently making $15 per hour? That unskilled workers will now be making as much as he/she does, even though he/she is skilled and they aren't? Maybe they're even teenagers new to the workforce, and that $15 per hour worker won't want to settle for what a teenagers making. He/she will now demand more than the minimum wage, say $25 per hour. And the person now making $25 per hour will demand $35 per hour, etc,. So, if the economy can't raise all wages due to market forces, get government to do it, regardless of consequences.

regards,
Waddie

Too Little Time
08-15-2016, 09:43 AM
We have 35 million Americans, 3/4th of whom are adults, not teenagers, earning less that $10.55 an hour.

The truth of the matter is that we will always have people who don't have the ability to do jobs which require substantially more education... and we will always have jobs that need doing which need to be done by people who are NOT highly educated. Our labor needs don't shift all that much as the world turns; someone will still be needed to do those things that many would consider to be menial.
It is always nice to talk about people with menial jobs. But talk about the jobs that left the country due to lower wages overseas. Or perhaps the people who cannot get jobs for whatever reason.

The problem is not wages. The problem is lack of jobs. We have too many people who are willing to do those menial jobs that need doing.

Waddie
08-15-2016, 09:58 AM
Norman Bernstein; Are there people making $15 an hour who are 'skilled'? I don't think so.

Norman, what planet do you live on? There are lots, lots of skilled people making $15 per hour. Millions.


Norman Bernstein; 75% of those making minimum wage are NOT teenagers new to the workforce... they're adults, trying to live on minimum wage.

That's true, but the person currently making $15 per hour will focus on the teenager now making $15 per hour and he/she will demand a big raise.


Norman Bernstein; You're right. Instead, we can use taxpayer money to subsidize employers who pay minimum wage, like we've been doing for years.
Increasing the minimum wage for a single mother won't get her off government assistance, so you haven't solved anything. She will still be eligible for assistance.

What would the wage picture look like if we had no immigration of uneducated, unskilled workers willing to work for $7.50 and just glad to have a job? We would have a serious unskilled labor shortage and wages would go higher due to market forces.

regards,
Waddie

hokiefan
08-15-2016, 10:42 AM
What 'skills' qualify people to earn $15 an hour?

...

Welders, HVAC technicians, cable installers, electricians... The list goes on and on.

Many people in those trades make more than $15/hr, but a great many do not.

Too Little Time
08-15-2016, 10:44 AM
What would the wage picture look like if we had no immigration of uneducated, unskilled workers willing to work for $7.50 and just glad to have a job? We would have a serious unskilled labor shortage and wages would go higher due to market forces.

I am a big market forces person. You might as well ask how the income/job situation will change when a higher minimum wage encourages businesses to use cheap foreign labor or more automation. I think we have done that experiment in the past (in part due to unions getting higher wages - not to blame unions for their intent but to point out the unintended result).


You're right. Instead, we can use taxpayer money to subsidize employers who pay minimum wage, like we've been doing for years.
Apple outsources most of its production labor. A number of other businesses replace labor with automation. Perhaps those businesses should pay for the taxpay money that is used to pay benefits to those who are unemployed because of those policies.

Economics is really hard. So is helping the poor.

hokiefan
08-15-2016, 10:48 AM
I haven't seen ANYONE with those skills making that little money... but I'll google it to see.




HVAC Technician Salary



In USD as of Aug 15, 2016

Service Technician HVAC $49,000
HVAC Technician $27,000
Temperature Control Technician $37,000
HVAC R Service Technician $44,000

11 more rows, 3 more columns



HVAC Technician Salary | Indeed.com
www.indeed.com/salary/HVAC-Technician.html

Indeed.com

Some higher, but $27,000 is about $13.50 an hour.

Waddie
08-15-2016, 10:52 AM
There are many trades and business people earning $15 per hour. Google it.

It probably won't reduce her level of assistance by much.

The market forces holding down wages are automation, global wage competition and large scale unskilled immigration. There is a surplus of unskilled workers in the US.

CEO "wages" are tied to performance. Their base salaries are much lower. But as the stock market rolls higher so does their compensation. It's like any other aspect of the market; what NFL quarterback is worth what they're drawing in pay? But if you consider how much they bring in they are compensated fairly. Why did Michael Jordan make millions for slapping his name on tennis shoes? Because NIKE made billions off of that name. That's a fair trade. Before you say, "but what about the CEO who makes millions while the company loses money?" Well, that's the risk the company takes. NIKE might have been left with lots of tennis shoes if the Jordans didn't sell, but Michael would still be well off.

BTW; beginning HVAC tech here makes $12 per hour. Many auto mechanics (at places like Walmart and the brake shops) make around that.

regards,
Waddie

hokiefan
08-15-2016, 10:56 AM
According to payscale.com:

HVAC Technician $29,783 - $70,583
Cable Installer $20,728 - $51,927
Electrician $29,365 - $80,325
Welder $26,150 - $63,301

Yes, at the low end, these people can make $15 an hour, rarely less... but the median wage is a great deal higher.

No argument. But this article pegs the median HVAC service tech at $19.87/hr. If that's the median then there is a huge chunk, I'd guess around 30%, that are in the $15/hr range. That was my point. Not that all of them make that little, but many of them do. It largely depends on what quality of company you land a job with.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=HVAC_Service_Technician/Hourly_Rate

Waddie
08-15-2016, 11:08 AM
Norman Bernstein; The median is a lot higher than that.

Hokiefan tried to explain that to you. Many are paid well below the "median".


Norman Bernstein; When you're living in poverty, or close to it, every bit helps.

That is true, but it takes a lot more than $15 per hour to really get out of poverty for a single woman with kids. She's better off getting trained in something that pays more than $15 per hour.


Norman Bernstein; This might be true of exportable jobs... but we're turning into a service economy, so globalization isn't as much of an influence.

Now you're cherry picking. I also mentioned automation (#1) and a surplus of unskilled labor, partly due to immigration. Those two things do affect the domestic job market. BTW; services can be off shored; accounting, law, medical record keeping, call centers, etc. In fact, offshoring services is the next big thing.


Norman Bernstin; I don't begrudge people in lofty positions, their compensation. We're not talking about THEM, we're talking about people who spend the entirety of their income providing food, clothing, shelter, and medical care.

You're always making the comparison.


Norman Bernstein; If the 'invisible hand' were actually working, we wouldn't be seeing CEO 'wages' climbing stratospherically... there would be competition for CEO slots, and their increases would be far more controlled.

regards,
Waddie

Todd D
08-15-2016, 11:28 AM
Here on the coast of Maine the bulk of the available jobs pay in the $9-15 range. Many of those jobs have no benefits, paid holidays or vacation pay. Boat work is a very good example. Skilled painters, boat carpenters, electricians and fiberglass techs seldom make over $18/hour here and starting pay is around $12. Sure a few people with 20+ years of experience get $20-$22, but they are the exception. On top of that much of the work is seasonal. I know people who work as independent contractors in the boat building/maintenance industry that only get $25/hr. Not bad for a job with no health insurance, no paind vacation, no sick days, no overtime, no unemployment benefits and often no workmans compensation, particularly when you consider that 15% comes off the top for social security/medicare tax.

Waddie
08-15-2016, 11:33 AM
Norman; median means the midpoint. Half making less and half making more. Hokiefan estimated about 30%, then, making around $15 per hour. That's a pretty significant "minority".

Regardless, the lady would be better off getting trained, and not view a minimum wage job as her career. She is better than that.

Yes, some jobs are totally immune from offshoring. But they aren't immune from either automation, cost cutting, or increased competition from people displaced from other service jobs that have been offshored or automated.

Years ago a typical machine shop had 30 or so employees. Modern equipment has reduced that number to less than ten.

My youngest son is a systems analyst and recently changed jobs. There were almost a hundred applicants for the new position he got. Some flew in for an interview. There are lots of service jobs out there but also lots of people looking for them.

Most of those applicants are currently working "temp" jobs. Some weren't currently employed at all. There are jobs out there but there are also lots of job seekers.

I have a friend who works as a job placement officer for a vocational school. He says that he can immediately place the upper 1/3 of the class and usually the middle third in something in or related to their field. He has lots of trouble placing the lower 1/3 anywhere.

I would advise that young lady making minimum wage to choose her new career carefully and then do her best to graduate near the top of the class.

regards,
Waddie

Too Little Time
08-15-2016, 12:23 PM
Consider the number of jobs that CANNOT be off-shored; you encounter them every single day in your life: the person behind the counter at the mini-mart, the checkout person at the supermarket, the waitress in the restaurant you eat at, the guy who stocks the shelves at the market, the laborer who digs the trenches for new plumbing or electrical lines, the guy who picks up your garbage....

....none of those people are at risk for losing their jobs due to globalization or offshoring. They're not an insignificant number.

The waitress in the restaurant may well be better off than what you suspect. The mini-mart may be privately owned and the owner might be doing work for less than the current minimum wage. The checkout is automated at Lowe's and Walmart. The owner of the trash company picks up our trash - we pay by the year and give a good sized tip.

We hire some casual labor. They tend to set their own rate.

The guy who takes your orders to buy and sell. He is a dying breed. Automation. I pay my $10/trade and fill in the form myself.

The S&P 500 ETF put a lot of people out of work - the guys who worked for the mutual fund companies. There is a good sized pension fund in California. It had hundreds of employees at all levels. Now 2 guys handle it all. They go fishing everyday at noon. The fund is mostly invested in index tracking products. So 2 guys write a few checks and place a few market orders everyday.

There was a fabric product company that I mentioned a while back. All 27 employees were replaced by automation (and a guard).

There are a significant number you seem to not recognize.

Waddie
08-15-2016, 12:48 PM
And all of those displaced workers are now seeking jobs in the remaining service industries, of which there are still quite a few. But the competition is getting tougher at all levels. Being average just doesn't cut it any more. I advised my grown kids that continual upgrading of skills is a must in every field, and there is no such thing as a "safe" job. What you knew ten years ago isn't worth much today. It's what have you done recently, and is your training up to date.

That same youngest son of mine several years ago wrote a "COPS More" grant that resulted in computers being installed in every patrol vehicle at the local police department. The Chief said that saved them having to hire any new officers for at least five years. Those that retired during that time frame simply weren't replaced.

I guess my point is that a new minimum wage isn't going to save people. Getting trained, and keeping the training current - in the right fields - is the best cure for poverty. I would even encourage older workers to update their skills if they haven't lately. Or else end up as a Walmart greeter in old age.

Even if the minimum wage were raised to $15 per hour, within a few years that would be worth a current $7.50 per hour as the economy adjusts, and fewer of those jobs than ever as automation becomes comparably more affordable.

Sorry to be so blunt, but those who are simply untrainable are doomed to a third world existence in a developed country, despite the efforts of government to prop them up.

regards,
Waddie

Waddie
08-15-2016, 01:04 PM
NB; But it's still a minority

Yes, a sizeable one. But you said no skilled workers made $15 per hour. Well, yes they do. About 30% of them apparently.


NB; Not everyone is 'better than that'.... some people are simply NOT capable of handling a more responsible, experienced, higher paying job

Given the state of public education, you are right. The fact is these workers are going to live in poverty, with or without a raise in the minimum wage.


NB; My point, exactly. What do we do with that 1/3rd? Condemn them to virtual poverty earning wages that can't sustain life without government assistance?

Government assistance is what they will always depend on. No wage scheme will change that.

As I said, the economy will adjust to a much higher minimum wage; automation, cutting workers hours, offshoring, etc. Along with some price hikes. You're better off arguing for a more generous government assistance program.

A Walmart greeter can be easily replaced with an interactive kiosk.

regards,
Waddie

hokiefan
08-15-2016, 01:08 PM
But it's still a minority. If you were going to characterize the career, you'd be more accurate characterizing it with reference to the median... and then talking about the opportunities for advancement.

...

I wasn't trying to characterize any career. Just point out that there are hundreds of thousands of skilled workers making $15/hr these days. It is way more common than you seem to think.

Waddie
08-15-2016, 01:24 PM
They'd be LESS impoverished with an increase in the minimum wage.
An increase in the minimum wage will REDUCE the taxpayer load.

I would disagree on both points. The people who lose jobs to automation or cut back hours or offshoring will then need to be fully supported by government assistance. I doubt if what people qualify for in terms of government assistance is much reduced. I doubt if taxes will go down because of a hike in the minimum wage.

regards,
Waddie

Breakaway
08-15-2016, 01:28 PM
But it's still a minority. If you were going to characterize the career, you'd be more accurate characterizing it with reference to the median... and then talking about the opportunities for advancement. How would YOU know? Not everyone is 'better than that'.... some people are simply NOT capable of handling a more responsible, experienced, higher paying job. Besides, how is she going to support her children, put food on the table, and pay the rent, while she trains? Where does THAT money come from? That is certainly true... so there need to be solutions for people who need jobs, AND need to live a better life than impoverished. NO economy can absorb EVERYONE who wants a high paying job. My point, exactly. What do we do with that 1/3rd? Condemn them to virtual poverty earning wages that can't sustain life without government assistance? You keep talking about people moving up by obtaining training, etc... but you're acknowledging that perhaps 1/3rd of them cannot... for whatever reason. I'd like to know what you would do for THOSE people. Great advice.... not attainable by some percentage of those who try, and try hard.

But thee problem of paying a trainee the same or near to an experienced worker remains: how do you propose that be handled?

Kevin

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