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Dirk Visser
08-13-2016, 09:22 PM
This forum has a lot of smart, experienced contributors...

I have been sandbagging here for some time, so I am confident in the potential payoff in asking for help from you guys in developing this theme..

I have been a contributor to the Small Craft Advisor.com message board over the past year, but am only getting sporadic responses over there...

I am hopeful this larger group will open more discussion possibilities of this universal subject, an all-consuming interest of mine..

Paul Pless
08-13-2016, 09:25 PM
hi dutch

LeeG
08-13-2016, 09:43 PM
Theme

Dirk Visser
08-13-2016, 09:53 PM
Hi Paul,
Yeah, thanks!
That would have been my Dad, Kees, born in Delft, 13 years in the Java trade, Dutch merchant marine. When Herr Hitler closed Holland that fleet was homeported out of N.Y.2and L.A, my mom was from Tennessee.

My OP subject is huge, but I am thinking, you and your buddies here have that great balance of intellect and experience that building , and the sea can provide, indeed, .. insists on.

Thanks for coming back, I consider that an auspicious beginning..

skuthorp
08-13-2016, 10:04 PM
G'day Dirk, I'm just one of the amateurs here, and welcome aboard.

Dirk Visser
08-13-2016, 10:24 PM
Thank you sir, I appreciate the nautical style welcome!
I am no stranger to boats, or their building and use, over the years.

But, for all that, or maybe due to it, my interest now longs for some way to unify experience and events in a coherent way ..

That might be the underlying motivation in beginning this investigation.

PeterSibley
08-13-2016, 10:29 PM
G'day Dirk, welcome .

Ian McColgin
08-13-2016, 10:53 PM
" . . . but am only getting sporadic responses . . . " [OP]

Raise honest questions about real things you're working on, share pix an descriptions of things you're doing, and respond honestly and helpfully to the questions of others and you'll be part of the conversation.

Ask phony questions that are really demands for validation, dictate the only true way, or indulge in flame wars about how to torque hull screws with the slots all lined up, and you'll perhaps get sporadic responses of mild hostility but mostly you'll get nothing.

If you troll in the Bilge on matters other than woodenboat related, you might have better luck at drumming up ego satisfaction, if that's what you really want.

You are who you show yourself to be. Welcome aboard and hope it goes well.

G'luck

Chip-skiff
08-13-2016, 10:55 PM
I am hopeful this larger group will open more discussion possibilities of this universal subject, an all-consuming interest of mine..

What, pray, is the subject? I still have no idea what you're asking.

paulf
08-13-2016, 11:00 PM
Welcome! So, what is this "huge" topic you wish to discuss? Or is it a collection of things?

Dirk Visser
08-13-2016, 11:09 PM
Hi Chip, and Ian,
Gentlemen, thanks for your interest.
The subject matter is everything we know, and an exploration of that interface between what our senses bring us and how we formulate ideas.
Like I mentioned it is a very large subject..in fact the biggest we can work on as conscious thinkers..

paulf
08-13-2016, 11:14 PM
Hi Chip, and Ian,
Gentlemen, thanks for your interest.
The subject matter is everything we know, and an exploration of that interface between what our senses bring us and how we formulate ideas.
Like I mentioned it is a very large subject..in fact the biggest we can work on as conscious thinkers..

Perhaps "divide and conquer" start small and work through. Your turn.

LeeG
08-13-2016, 11:25 PM
Everything we know

Dirk Visser
08-13-2016, 11:28 PM
Right Paul,Excellent strategy!After all, we are looking at totality here aren't we?Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Psychology, Art, Ethics...by definition nothing is excluded from the order we find ourselves immersed in.We make sense of it, but how has that been accomplished?

Arizona Bay
08-13-2016, 11:34 PM
Here's a Division...

What do we actually know, vs what have we accepted from someone else, or from some common agreed upon reality, and therefore only know second hand.

Dirk Visser
08-13-2016, 11:51 PM
Aha! Crucial and blurry distinction there, for sure!Sight, taste, smell, hearing, touch...the classic 5 are direct and trustworthy...
Those stories and opinions though...buyer beware!

Dirk Visser
08-14-2016, 08:41 PM
Thanks guys for the cordial welcome (And local knowledge cautions), last night.

In reviewing the posts I was reassured of the power of a group and the dialouge to open up new horizons of consideration in any discussion. The advantage of unique viewpoints, if you will..

Specifically, Arizona Bay led into a recognition of the narrative as a slippery slope, and I responded with a back to basics affirmation of the 5 senses.

But, later on the pillow, as I was mulling over the implications, I realized there is powerful language and imagery, yes, to convey beliefs and versions of reality;....but there must also be a "structure of stimula.."
Our sensory apparatus has been built by our surroundings, to supply the organism with survival level information..a raw data feed that has managed to keep us here.

Paul Pless
08-14-2016, 08:43 PM
okay i was wrong
hi ish

Dirk Visser
08-14-2016, 09:21 PM
Cool Paul !
The thing is, this line of inquiry, if handled gently and intelligently, has some chance to correct our course in time to avoid the foul ground and rocky shore we are bound for..

Events and relationships appear to form the groundstuff of nature, but our science has barely gotten the news, or remains in deep denial..

Our societies and cultures, magnificent and charming, and capable as they have grown to be, are still rudderless when it comes to plotting a sustainable series of waypoints for the species, and the planet..!

elf
08-14-2016, 09:28 PM
Wrong place, Dirk (who ever you are). The pomposity of your verbiage, by itself, will hinder conversation here.

But mostly, noone here can sustain such a conversation for more than a page.

Talking philosophy wiith boaties is a dead end in my experience (at least 10 years here at this point.)

PeterSibley
08-14-2016, 09:34 PM
Don't believe everything the charming Elf says, just sometimes we have some very good conversations here.

Dirk Visser
08-14-2016, 09:46 PM
Hi Elf,
Everything collects in the Bilge as I am sure you are aware..
I am a seasoned Alaska, Washington, and California boatman, since you ask.
Ten years on the WBF has me beat, but I have been observing this group for the past year, and will take my chances on them..!
Feel free to put me on "ignore"..!
Call it Bilge Sachet, and thanks for the revealing and valuable response..

Vince Brennan
08-14-2016, 10:03 PM
Dirk: (Kiss) off.

Has to be the fastest addition to the <PLONK> since that idjiit Steve Cross laddie.

Dirk Visser
08-14-2016, 10:26 PM
Sure Vince,
All good!
Opinion is, after all, a deadly force!

Dave Wright
08-14-2016, 11:14 PM
Wrong place, Dirk (who ever you are). The pomposity of your verbiage, by itself, will hinder conversation here.

But mostly, noone here can sustain such a conversation for more than a page.

Talking philosophy wiith boaties is a dead end in my experience (at least 10 years here at this point.)

This might be a reasonable response. Me, I'd say if you haven't already done so, take couple of college history of science courses and ditch the internet.

epoxyboy
08-15-2016, 01:54 AM
Wikipedia. Begin at A, and work your way through to Z.
There's the stuff we know (and, no, you cant trust your five senses), the stuff we think we know, the stuff we know we dont know, and the stuff we dont know we dont know.
And what is knowing? I conceptually have a very good handle on how a car engine works, how many of the components are made, and why certain components are made from one metal vs another. I dont have a clue about flame propagation in high pressure environments, fuel injector nozzle design for optimum atomisation, how to calculate the safety factor of a flywheel spinning at 8000rpm - or even the mathematics involved to figure these things out.
I am equally sure there is a whole bunch of stuff that I dont know even exists when it comes to engine design. So where do you draw the line, because the deeper you dig, the more you find.
They found the Higgs Boson, and now they're looking for even smaller widgets.

Pete

Dirk Visser
08-15-2016, 12:50 PM
The foils are lifting us boys, can you feel it?
Some nice course made good again last night.

Dave, your suggestion of a history of science survey course was brilliant!
It really cuts to the chase, and the crux of the problem we face as interpretive thinkers.

That history, from agriculture, through the the bright lights of classical Greece and China, on up to the Renaissance, and now our transformative postmodern tech-enabed day, really lays bare our orientation to the natural world which produced us.

Francis Bacon said " put nature on the rack, and let her reveal her secrets".
Descartes, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Von Neumam, Watson&Crick, and countless other gifted minds continued forging the scientific path.
Their empirical reductionist approach holds immense power, but also it seems, a fatal flaw.
In the effort to exclude error, science had to make itself "value-free".
Always the mechanistic how of things, never the why.

In an exposed, codified, environment, where we have now gained the helm, this is the challenge before the human today:
As we depart genetic control, how the hell do we learn to read nature for an intent?

John of Phoenix
08-15-2016, 01:01 PM
In the effort to exclude error, science had to make itself "value-free".What sciences would you prefer with errors and values?

Personally, I like my science to be error free. I find it's much more... user friendly that way. Values I can get elsewhere. Or, what the hell, just make some up.

Dirk Visser
08-15-2016, 01:10 PM
Yeah, exactly John!
You have identified the paradox of awesome power but little consensual agreement of where to apply it, beyond the marketplace, or weaponry ..!

paulf
08-15-2016, 01:38 PM
well, we've bantered about a bit, Have you decided on a topic to kick it off?

Ian McColgin
08-15-2016, 01:58 PM
As we approach the nothingness of the cloud of unknowing . . .

John of Phoenix
08-15-2016, 02:13 PM
well, we've bantered about a bit, Have you decided on a topic to kick it off?I didn't get an answer to my question "What sciences would you prefer with errors and values?"

Would you like to start there Dirk?

Dirk Visser
08-15-2016, 03:54 PM
Right Paul f.
Can we just go with "Totality" and figure that will cover it?

Ian:
Would a shorthand label for that be convenient ? How about "The Void"..?

Dave,
Good point... None!
And we needed that kind of restricted focus as we were coming up, but it is confining up here at these levels.. Nature is yielding control of all her secrets and codes..
We ourselves are now calling shots in the survival game.The observable is broadcasting on many levels as our instrumentality has so amply demonstrated..
And interestingly, as Karl Popper pointed out last Mid-century, science cannot be relied upon that without the admission that it itself, must be falsifiable ...!

But the premise is we need to expand the field now..recognize that nature has always been about individuation, mental and physical, hell, she can't make two identical objects... That's a huge clue about one aspect of what she is after:

Innovation..!

Dave Wright
08-15-2016, 04:14 PM
Chinese style re-education camp might be just the ticket. You might then come to agree with Colonel Saito: "Be happy in your work!"

Dirk Visser
08-15-2016, 04:17 PM
Sorry , I meant "John of Phoenix "for that last entry, not Dave..
...the thread controls are still unfamiliar...
Like how do you review recent posts while you are entering a post yourself..?

...But I will say I am very grateful for the chance to test float a few of these ideas past you guys the last couple of days. And the honest responses have been some first class experience gathering, which is our job here, right?

Dirk Visser
08-15-2016, 04:24 PM
Absolutely Dave!
Right up there with " Arbiet Macht Frei "..!

John of Phoenix
08-15-2016, 04:40 PM
Sorry , I meant "John of Phoenix "for that last entry, not Dave..
...the thread controls are still unfamiliar...
Like how do you review recent posts while you are entering a post yourself..?

...But I will say I am very grateful for the chance to test float a few of these ideas past you guys the last couple of days. And the honest responses have been some first class experience gathering, which is our job here, right?Don't count on me for much along the solemn lines. I'm in charge of dispensing ridicule and don't get serious too often. I say this so you won't be surprised or, heaven forbid, disappointed.

paulf
08-15-2016, 04:51 PM
This is the part where I walk out of the Car dealership because I'm being scammed.

George Jung
08-15-2016, 06:14 PM
Fascinating- and educational. And answers to life's mysteries- like 'where did Monty Python find inspiration?'

Paul Pless
08-15-2016, 06:15 PM
Dirk, where do your interests in boats lie?

George Jung
08-15-2016, 06:20 PM
I'm guessing 'the keel'..

Sky Blue
08-15-2016, 07:20 PM
Dirk, where do your interests in boats lie?

no drift

Chip-skiff
08-15-2016, 07:33 PM
When I did scientific editing for a consulting group of natural resource PhDs, after a fourteen-hour day, we'd go out for beers, and talk and argue about things such as hierarchical classification systems and the mutual incomprehension between specialists such as aquatic biologists and hydrologists.

After a couple pitchers, we'd be arm wrestling, spitting beer on one another, and howling "Everything is Everything."

Fun, although we didn't make a lot of headway as far as total understanding.

paulf
08-15-2016, 08:36 PM
Aaaa, whatwillittake ta get ya into this dis beauty discussion today???

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 02:50 AM
Paulf
1st post :Don' t give up on me so fast! You were among my first open minded responders ...Put your self in my place: how can we introduce such a universal subject without appearing pompous and threatening?
2nd post: Ah...gracias Amigo ... That Beauty you mention, aesthetics, art, is certainly a domain of order in its own right..!

Chip,
Love it, many thanks!
And that is us, in Academia, or at anchor, rafted up..!

SB,
Nice to see you here, but it does scare me.. I'm going to go ahead and answer Paul because, you know..
I confess to admiration of your wordsmithing though, let me say...

George,
#1: ha, ha. What a relief! Some of this might be making a little bit of sense..
#2: yup, the keel, (that's outside the bilge) , but hey, I just got here, remember?

John of Phoenix,
Ooowwe, I wish you would not have brought that up!
You see Humor is that little guy with the whistle sneaking around the corner .. Then just when you think you've got it all wrapped up he toots on the goddamn thing and your lovely edifice of words and reason comes tumbling down up to your earlobes... We do have to account for it though , don't we..?

Ok Paul, here goes, ...(and thanks for the memory lane tour)
These were my boats...
Lashed together pallet rafts, excavation ponds, Berkeley , Ca.
Airplane wing tank kayak, Lexington reservoir. Ca . McKenzie river Or.
Minimax hydroplane 12 Hp Sea King , Berkeley Aquatic Park Ca.
El Toro, Lido 14 sailboats , Lake Merritt , Oakland Ca.
14ft. Whitehouse Ski boat 40 Hp. Mercury Sacramento Delta Ca.
26 ft. Columbia river double ended gillnettWa.Graymarine Built 1929, Astoria, Or... Blaine Wa.
Davidson 12 sailing dingy, sloop, Blaine. Wa.
30 ft Alaska troller Chrysler Crown built 1915 Seattle
34 ft Herring gilnetter Volvo Penta Bellingham Wa.built 1977
32ft crabber/ gillnetter Perkins ,built 1970 Bellingham Wa.
32ft aluminum Bristol Bay gillnetter. 6V92 turbo, built 1982 Bellingham Wa.
60 ft Jay Benford schooner Ford diesel Built 1972 Seattle Wa.
19 ft Lockwood Queen Charlotte single kayak
(2) 18 ft rotomolded " Aquanaut " kayaks
Ron Holder 14ft vagabond sailboat.

Currently still have the last 3, but the Holder14 is a planing hull and i am looking around for something a little more age-appropriate ... I really like a limited production sailboat from the 1980's
It's called the Banno " Old World" 18 . heavy fiberglass, lots of teak, wood spars, gaff rig ...your kind of boat too, I might imagine, when you get to be my age, I mean...

TomF
08-16-2016, 06:39 AM
I figure the reading order should be book ended by Dr. Seuss, whatever goes in the middle. One must appreciate and return to The Classics, after all, if ones education is to be complete.

Actually, I am curious about why serious responses so far have presumed Science's pride of place. I'd toss in some of the great literature, to say nothing of discussions of history, philosophy, art and music, etc. Science is crucial (as are principles of design), but is in service to something. That something is more important, imo.

Paul Pless
08-16-2016, 08:01 AM
link (http://www.readingorders.com/)

:D

amish rob
08-16-2016, 09:27 AM
Dirk,
Do you have any ideas? Are you going to attempt to begin a discussion?

This is pointless, so far.

By the by, we are not that important. We don't know squat.

Peace,
Robert

Sky Blue
08-16-2016, 09:39 AM
I'm enjoying the discussion very much. We're not solving the world's problems here.

I take the OP as satire. There are so many here so utterly convinced of the rightness of their views, their expertise, so many that are proprietary about the Forum itself, defending it from dissenters in order to preserve some kind of truth on a basis of putative knowledge.

Inasmuch as these persons are so infinitely knowledgeable, perhaps a reading list is in order to assist those who don't quite know as much as the dearly enlightened. Seen in this way, the OP is far from pointless.

amish rob
08-16-2016, 09:42 AM
Ah, yes. I should have known.

Well, no book will help you. You are here, you will be gone. We know not where or when you go.

Enjoy the trip while it lasts.

Peace,
Robert

Paul Pless
08-16-2016, 09:52 AM
I take the OP as satire. There are so many here so utterly convinced of the rightness of their views, their expertise, so many that are proprietary about the Forum itself, defending it from dissenters in order to preserve some kind of truth on a basis of putative knowledge.



project much?

John of Phoenix
08-16-2016, 10:00 AM
Dirk,
Do you have any ideas? Are you going to attempt to begin a discussion?

This is pointless, so far.

By the by, we are not that important. We don't know squat.

Peace,
RobertNOW we're gettin' somewhere.

TomF
08-16-2016, 10:02 AM
project much?Cut him some slack, Paul. For all we know, SB and Dirk might be the same person.

Dave Wright
08-16-2016, 10:31 AM
There's only one path to redemption Dirk, post a picture of your old 60 foot Jay Benford designed schooner, preferably with some Puget Sound landmarks in the background.

Sky Blue
08-16-2016, 10:43 AM
There's only one path to redemption Dirk, post a picture of your old 60 foot Jay Benford designed schooner, preferably with some Puget Sound landmarks in the background.

I suspect you just may get it... :)

amish rob
08-16-2016, 10:45 AM
Is this what watching The Bachelor is like? I just might start regular watching TV if so.

SullivanB
08-16-2016, 11:17 AM
This is a very strange thread.

Of course, it started off that way. Thank goodness SB is here to keep our feet firmly planted on Planet Reality.

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 04:12 PM
Hi Guys,
Much diversity evidenced today!
And valuable insights as to how this place is structured..

I do have a few photos of my old Benford schooner, both in Puget Sound and on the hard in Port Townsend, I will try to get them up soon, sounds like it might add to my credibility.
..In the eight years I had that gorgeous vessel I brought her from a fire-damaged Lake Union houseboat to a standing rigged schooner, adding accommodations fore and aft, and a deckhouse, seven foot tall rudder(she drew 9 feet, beam 18') hydraulic steering , stern davits , etc. A boat that large(50 tons) is really too much for 1 guy, but she taught me that, and much more..
No, I am not Sky Blue, though I will confess to admiration of his/her vocabulary and English command..

ok, on to the work at hand: quite possible that i shot myself in the foot with the thread title.
By "Reading" I meant interpreting, not literal reading as in a book list.
By "Order" I did not mean sequence or command, but the organized structure of our surrounding environment..
Hope that explanation helps..

Now then, I will try now to skeletonize the point of view.
Order can be recognized in four distinct domains:

Rational: all of science, anything that can be weighed or measured..

Aesthetic: all of art, literature, music..

Ethics: proper behavior in support of the unity..

Spirituality: a recognition that it is still ongoing, and can never be completely understood..

There is nothing new here, these divisions have been recognized since Classical times ...
The new twist in our day will be to interpret all events from the micro to the cosmic as being proportion representations of the order we have been busy cataloging and innovating within.

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 04:20 PM
Hi Guys,
Much diversity evidenced today!
And valuable insights as to how this place is structured..

I do have a few photos of my old Benford schooner, both in Puget Sound and on the hard in Port Townsend, I will try to get them up soon, sounds like it might add to my credibility.
..In the eight years I had that gorgeous vessel I brought her from a fire-damaged Lake Union houseboat to a standing rigged schooner, adding accommodations fore and aft, and a deckhouse, seven foot tall rudder(she drew 9 feet, beam 18') hydraulic steering , stern davits , etc. A boat that large(50 tons) is really too much for 1 guy, but she taught me that, and much more..
No, I am not Sky Blue, though I will confess to admiration of his/her vocabulary and English command..

ok, on to the work at hand: quite possible that i shot myself in the foot with the thread title.
By "Reading" I meant interpreting, not literal reading as in a book list.
By "Order" I did not mean sequence or command, but the organized structure of our surrounding environment..
Hope that explanation helps..

Now then, I will try now to skeletonize the point of view.
Order can be recognized in four distinct domains:

Rational: all of science, anything that can be weighed or measured..

Aesthetic: all of art, literature, music..

Ethics: proper behavior in support of the unity..

Spirituality: a recognition that it is still ongoing, and can never be completely understood..

There is nothing new here, these divisions have been recognized since Classical times ...
The new twist in our day will be to interpret all events from the micro to the cosmic as being proportion representations of the order we have been busy cataloging and innovating within.

amish rob
08-16-2016, 04:20 PM
Are we pretending humans are an important part of the universe for the purpose of this discussion?

Serious inquiry. My beliefs do not allow that, so I would like to know where we are starting from.

This discussion may pan out, but it seems too large and vague.

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 04:37 PM
Yes Rob
Indeed we do! Your brain represents the highest intensity point of order in the observable universe..
How can it not be seen as the goal which the precious long chain hydrocarbons and polypeptides have been fashioning out of the deep time survival game...
Yes, the abiotics have finally learned to think, and feel emotion...

Paul Pless
08-16-2016, 04:40 PM
Are we pretending humans are an important part of the universe for the purpose of this discussion?

Serious inquiry. My beliefs do not allow that, so I would like to know where we are starting from.

This discussion may pan out, but it seems too large and vague.

Peace,
Robert


Yes Rob
Indeed we do! Your brain represents the highest intensity point of order in the observable universe..
How can it not be seen as the goal which the precious long chain hydrocarbons and polypeptides have been fashioning out of the deep time survival game...
Yes, the abiotics have finally learned to think, and feel emotion...

now we are getting somewhere

switters
08-16-2016, 04:43 PM
http://sites.saschina.org/aolivas/files/2014/10/you_are_here_galaxy-2i5pzhc.jpg

Once we got to this part of my education it seemed that drinking beer, courting pretty women and spending as much time outside playing was not as much of a waste of time as I had been led to believe.

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 05:22 PM
Paul,
It is the largest of subjects.
But try this fast forward ...

Dirk and Paul were sitting around discussing the power of initiating ideas before they lit off the Big Bang, this time around..

Dirk says: " But these long chain molecules like the key neurotransmitters take so long to make and are so fragile.. What are we going to do?"

Paul: "Only one thing to do Old Man, we'll have to let them eat each other.!"

And in that moment was born the food chain...
Obsolete baggage included!

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 05:34 PM
Switters, Heh, Heh! Yup. Me too for about 5 decades..Nice picture of our home!

amish rob
08-16-2016, 05:54 PM
Dirk,
Here we part. Our philosophies are incompatible. The observable universe is nothing in the entirety of creation, as are we.
Imagining the universe exists simply to perfect my brain is as ridiculous to me as imagining my mind resides in my brain.

This conversation also presumes we are the only intelligence, or the pinnacle of it. Equally laughable to my philosophical sense.

Good luck,
Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 07:02 PM
Hi Rob, sorry to lose you.
Yes,your assessment was fairly accurate about the universe being here to develop your brain and by extension your mind . That distinction is deep and complex, but this viewpoint by no means excludes other types of conscieousness , and hardly asserts Humans as a pinnacle. Just the only intelligence we can confirm and explore, that of planet Earth.

The thing is we are holding our conclusions down to the observable. In that sense the science of our day is indespensible and our only real guide...
All else is speculation , and until proven otherwise , mysticism or faith based thinking..!

amish rob
08-16-2016, 07:07 PM
Oh, I'm not leaving this train wreck. I just can't agree with your line of thinking. :)

You want to talk about everything, then limit it to what is observable. Absurd. There is no way you can ever begin to scratch the surface of everything, and what we know is laughable.

Still, I wish you luck, and I'll be reading along.

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 09:23 PM
Rob,
I'll take your continuing interest as an affirmation of sorts..
A dialouge does depend on some measure of tolerance and forbearance after all. ..

Pete (epoxyboy), back on page 1 mentioned the Higgs Boson and potentials for even smaller "widgets" .
This is a great example of how with all good intention, the physicist of our present day has missed the point of how existence is built and maintained.
It's not about the ever finer particle.
Rather the truth and power of material and energy resides in an ongoing relationship between the one, and the other...the single logic connector is what holds everything together...

And to your point, it is not part of the physical world at all but an abstraction which allows reality to come into being...
This world is built from top to bottom on dualities and relationships ..
The hydrogen atom, Yin and Yang, binary code, take your pick, no single items, always a relationship..
The One, and The Other!

john welsford
08-16-2016, 10:23 PM
"What we know" is a very difficult thing to pin down. For example, I know how to strip and rebuild a motor car engine, circa 1980 or so. Does that mean that I know more than a Neanderthal?
I suspect not, I might, with very great risk and difficulty survive for a couple of years in his environment, and my "knowing" about engines is predicated upon a whole bunch of assumptions on my part. I "assume" that the person who designed the conrods for example, has the required knowledge of metallurgy, of stress paths, lubrication, etc etc to design such, and that applies to an awful lot of what I "know". In fact, when I think about it, what I really "know", is how to make use of other peoples work in the context of the kind of life I live in, in the kind of society that I live in.

How to kill, skin, smoke the flesh of, and use the bones of a mammoth? Only the faintest of ideas, and that because I read Jean Auels Earths Children books.

John Welsford

John of Phoenix
08-16-2016, 10:30 PM
Dirk, what is your most unusual experience?

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 11:12 PM
Greetings Mr. Welsford,
First let me say I have a lot of admiration for you and Howard's adventures.
I will venture that I have both you guys near the top of my current "A" list for inspiration...

You know , If indeed this environment here that we find ourselves immersed in, has any aspect of a dynamic adaptive mold for the body and mind you guys are both a couple of lead players in the unfolding drama ...

Thanks for the horsepower your above post adds to my fumbling efforts here..

This is the deep and fast water compared to the SCA message board , but I have some shallow roots and abiding affection for P. T. and really think Josh and Craig are doing a first class job with the "Advisor".!

Dirk Visser
08-16-2016, 11:19 PM
John, peculiar question, but appreciated.
I'll have to run some tapes on the pillow tonight..

Turnabout fair play?

Kevin T
08-16-2016, 11:22 PM
A lot like RobbityRob of a few years back. The same singularity of purpose, just a different topic.

I think RobbityRob's focus was about some boat that was stolen or some such.

paulf
08-17-2016, 12:07 AM
A lot like RobbityRob of a few years back. The same singularity of purpose, just a different topic.

I think RobbityRob's focus was about some boat that was stolen or some such.

Yet, no topic has been identified....

Dirk Visser
08-17-2016, 12:22 AM
How about this for a topic Paulf,?

"Substance becoming Knowing"

Or, if you prefer:

"Matter changing into Mind"

Osborne Russell
08-17-2016, 01:05 AM
How can it not be seen as the goal . . .

Just make the pitch for intelligent design and let's get on with it, Christian.

oznabrag
08-17-2016, 06:32 AM
Don't count on me for much along the solemn lines. I'm in charge of dispensing ridicule and don't get serious too often. I say this so you won't be surprised or, heaven forbid, disappointed.

Gee willikers, John, I'm sorry!

i didn't realize I kept stepping on your toes! :D


This is the part where I walk out of the Car dealership because I'm being scammed.

Yeah. I got as far as your post #38.

What did I miss?

Is this Dirk guy a Turing Test?

Kevin T
08-17-2016, 07:40 AM
Just make the pitch for intelligent design and let's get on with it, Christian.

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner!!

Canoeyawl
08-17-2016, 09:57 AM
Are there birds that lay their eggs in water?
Sheesh...

John of Phoenix
08-17-2016, 10:01 AM
John, peculiar question, but appreciated.
I'll have to run some tapes on the pillow tonight..

Turnabout fair play?Sure, I've posted about several before but I don't want to bore the regulars here.

oznabrag
08-17-2016, 10:04 AM
Heh. Why does the porridge bird lay its eggs in the air?

The European Porridge Bird, or the African?

amish rob
08-17-2016, 11:11 AM
Be serious! Everything in the universe is counting on us. :)

Arizona Bay
08-17-2016, 11:35 AM
How about this for a topic Paulf,?

"Substance becoming Knowing"

Or, if you prefer:

"Matter changing into Mind"

I'd say, your story is completely backwards and a bit twisted.

But hey, it's your story :D

amish rob
08-17-2016, 11:59 AM
What is mind? No, matter.
What is matter? Never mind. :)

Peace,
Robert

Osborne Russell
08-17-2016, 12:35 PM
Be serious! Everything in the universe is counting on us. :)

:D

I wish I could give my brother Bill his great thrill
I'd take him in chains to the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after.

-- Bob Dylan, Tombstone Blues.

john welsford
08-17-2016, 12:58 PM
Thank you Dirk.
A bit of thread drift here, Howard launched "Southern Cross" a few days ago, did two days sailing, the boat is performing well which is great, there was a bit of chewing on my pencil while drawing the rig but he tells me that its working well.
We'll have more to report in about three weeks when he gets back from running the latest SCAMP Camp and sailing classes in Port Townsend, the extended sea trials start then.

John Welsford




Greetings Mr. Welsford,
First let me say I have a lot of admiration for you and Howard's adventures.
I will venture that I have both you guys near the top of my current "A" list for inspiration...

You know , If indeed this environment here that we find ourselves immersed in, has any aspect of a dynamic adaptive mold for the body and mind you guys are both a couple of lead players in the unfolding drama ...

Thanks for the horsepower your above post adds to my fumbling efforts here..

This is the deep and fast water compared to the SCA message board , but I have some shallow roots and abiding affection for P. T. and really think Josh and Craig are doing a first class job with the "Advisor".!

Dirk Visser
08-17-2016, 03:33 PM
Hi Osborne,
The help with the heavy lifting is appreciated. No i am not a Christian , or even a Creationist , but I cannot accept a meaningless accidental universe either..
I can tell you a cute story about the first religious priest though :

"The little tribal elder was sitting in his cave hunched over sucking his thumb.
A tremendous flash of lightning struck nearby, everyone in the little clan cowered back into the far recesses of the cave.
My people are afraid thought the little shaman, I can use this!
At that moment he stood up, and extending his arms, declared loudly: "That was the voice of God speaking, he is not pleased, and he told me to tell you this..........""

Dirk Visser
08-17-2016, 03:54 PM
Hi Osborne,
The help with the heavy lifting is appreciated. No i am not a Christian , or even a Creationist , but I cannot accept a meaningless accidental universe either..
I can tell you a cute story about the first religious priest though :

"The little tribal elder was sitting in his cave hunched over sucking his thumb.
A tremendous flash of lightning struck nearby, everyone in the little clan cowered back into the far recesses of the cave.
My people are afraid thought the little shaman, I can use this!
At that moment he stood up, and extending his arms, declared loudly: "That was the voice of God speaking, he is not pleased, and he told me to tell you this..........""

Chip-skiff
08-17-2016, 06:08 PM
What would a caveman's thumb taste like?

Seriously.

amish rob
08-17-2016, 06:18 PM
So, it wasn't created, and it's not accidental. Why isn't it both? Why can't the entirety of all things be an accidental creation? In fact, shouldn't it be, if nothing is one thing?

Many things are created accidentally, after all, like the frisbee and vulcanized rubber. Why not star birthing nebulas?

Peace,
Robert

Arizona Bay
08-17-2016, 06:28 PM
What would a caveman's thumb taste like?

Seriously.


Porridge Bird?

Arizona Bay
08-17-2016, 06:39 PM
So, it wasn't created, and it's not accidental. Why isn't it both? Why can't the entirety of all things be an accidental creation? In fact, shouldn't it be, if nothing is one thing?

Many things are created accidentally, after all, like the frisbee and vulcanized rubber. Why not star birthing nebulas?

Peace,
Robert

How about...
it's always being created in it's timeless, infinite complexity, now.
Including the concepts (thoughts) of past memories, and future possibilities. :D

Vince Brennan
08-17-2016, 06:47 PM
Sir Roots Plumarole De Fogarty

Dirk Visser
08-18-2016, 01:49 AM
Here's another angle that might help clarify the focus on one of the central tenents I am hoping to get help with as we try to develop the " nature's survival game as an adaptive mold for consciousness" point of view.

Let's forget about the mind and thinking, put aside for the moment cosmic origins, imagination and creativity, curiosity and emotions. ..just restrict our attention to what the genetic strategy has been able to accomplish with the physical human body..

The hope is that this simplified orientation will be less prone to controversy and misunderstanding.
An axiomatic table of contents is really all I had hoped to achieve in this initial presentation of the ideas.
Like on a sunny day, one guy says to the other, " Gee, the daylight is sunny today." It holds up pretty well just like that.

Anyway, on to the matter at hand.
The realities of the planetary environment here on earth have dictated much of what we see in the present-day human form. Here's a short, and incomplete list:

Gravity: size and wieght appropriate for speed generation.
Sound: 360 degree sensory capability, wide frequency range.
Light: 180 degree coverage, binocular vision, iris control, peripheral motion. sensitivities, receptor location at highest point.
Olfactory: wide range to detect danger or potential mates, nose above mouth. to protect ingestion. Arboreal environment: opposible thumb, grasping power.
Social groupings: voice, language


Ok..a small sample but do you see the axiomatic character of the Darwinian shaping taking place?

Dirk Visser
08-18-2016, 12:23 PM
I might have added last night that those nerve cell conduits from the eyes, ears, and nose, are the shortest and thickest bundles of transmission cable lines in the body ...the survival of the organism in a chancy environment has made it so!

AndyG
08-18-2016, 05:59 PM
I cannot accept a meaningless accidental universe either..

It's far from meaningless.

It's precisely tuned to allow stellar nucleogenesis and eventually evolve environments where subsets of the universe can become aware about the nature of reality and their places in it.

Not bad, for a mere mix of Rules and Energy.

Andy

paulf
08-18-2016, 07:02 PM
It's far from meaningless.

It's precisely tuned to allow stellar nucleogenesis and eventually evolve environments where subsets of the universe can become aware about the nature of reality and their places in it.

Not bad, for a mere mix of Rules and Energy.



Andy


There, Andy got the ball roiling, watch how fast. it gets lost in the ambitiousness of the OP.

Dirk Visser
08-18-2016, 10:01 PM
Andy G!
You da Man!
"Lock in the dog on the Iron Mike boys, this course is good 'till morning and beyond!!"
Maybe at tomorrow's afternoon Mug Up we can check back with our new skipper about those mysteriously powerful "Rules" he mentioned...


Paul F.
I agree... totally over-ambitious, arrogant, pompous, threatening, and unfit for command.
I hereby demote myself to deck swabbie...

paulf
08-18-2016, 10:26 PM
Andy G!
You da Man!
"Lock in the dog on the Iron Mike boys, this course is good 'till morning and beyond!!"
Maybe at tomorrow's afternoon Mug Up we can check back with our new skipper about those mysteriously powerful "Rules" he mentioned...


Paul F.
I agree... totally over-ambitious, arrogant, pompous, threatening, and unfit for command.
I hereby demote myself to deck swabbie...

Then jaysus..make a point!

Dirk Visser
08-18-2016, 10:42 PM
er....uh, oh! ......
maybe we could talk about the great Squim weather? the rain shadow and all..?

AndyG
08-19-2016, 04:21 AM
The rules?

Chuck into the pot:

1 Three spatial dimensions. One temporal dimension. (Further spatial dimensions may be present at Planck scales).

2 Constants: 25 of these. Maybe more. The fine-structure one is particularly intriguing. Maybe less: some of these constants could be emergent phenomena as the pot cools.

3 Energy: an awful lot. Imagine - though you can't - the mass of a trillion, trillion stars turned into raw energy.

Room? Don't worry, this mix makes up space as it goes.

While things might look a little cloudy at first, things start to settle down within a few hundred million years, and get genuinely impressive after a few billion.

4 Kicking, gouging and punching below the belt are expected for all evolving lifeforms.

Andy

Dirk Visser
08-19-2016, 12:05 PM
Hey, Andy...
Brilliant foundation!
Say, you aren't by any chance sitting in a little tin shed beneath an unfinished 50 foot sailboat hull are you.? Lorry traffic swooshing by on the wet pavement of the Hannegan road, twenty miles south of the Canadian line, near Bellingham, Washington?

Because that's where I first met 75 year old George C. Hall in 1988 when I was just turning 40.
He assured me there were at least 50 guys sitting around in little sheds like his, researching " The Nature of Order" and all of the implications that flow out of that.
I guess it's down to 48 now, I'm still here, and so are you!

He left me a manuscript, which has sat neglected for the past twenty years, but this thread is an attempt to winnow through some of the more salient points with an eye toward publication.
I can feel a strong resonance of ideas already in your recent posts and am grateful for your insightful
assistance .

Dirk

Dirk Visser
08-20-2016, 12:07 AM
It's far from meaningless.

It's precisely tuned to allow stellar nucleogenesis and eventually evolve environments where subsets of the universe can become aware about the nature of reality and their places in it.

Not bad, for a mere mix of Rules and Energy.

Andy

Indeed Andy,
You nailed the crux of of the human condition right there, we are in a rich, protective biosphere and are actually the first known subset of the universe which has become aware about the nature of reality..and we are trying like hell to figure out our place in it...

In fact, do you have a sense of where the present day human institutions might be on the gradient between the strict genetic control that built our environment and intelligence on the one side.....,
...and a civilization which has achieved sufficient awareness that might allow us to phase out the killing of ourselves and the planet on the other.?

If there is a hidden agenda to this thread ..determining such a readout might be it....

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
08-20-2016, 08:44 AM
The rules?
.....
Andy

Here you go:


Always store beer in a dark place.

By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man--man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him.

Men are more sentimental than women. It blurs their thinking.

Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win.

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent.

Always listen to experts. They’ll tell you what can’t be done and why. Then do it!

Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough to let you make your second shot perfect.

There is no conclusive evidence of life after death. But there is no evidence of any sort against it. Soon enough you will know. So why fret about it?

If it can’t be expressed in figures, it is not science; it is opinion.

It has long been known that one horse can run faster than another--but which one? Differences are crucial.

A fake fortune teller can be tolerated. But an authentic soothsayer should be shot on sight. Cassandra did not get half the kicking around she deserved .

Delusions are often functional. A mother’s opinions about her children’s beauty, intelligence, goodness, et cetera ad nauseam, keep her from drowning them at birth.

Most “scientists” are bottle washers and button sorters.

A “pacifist male” is a contradiction in terms. Most self-described “pacifists” are not pacific; they simply assume false colors. When the wind changes, they hoist the Jolly Roger.

Nursing does not diminish the beauty of a woman’s breasts; it enhances their charm by making them look lived in and happy.

A generation which ignores history has no past—and no future.

A poet who reads his verse in public may have other nasty habits.

What a wonderful world it is that has girls in!

Small change can often be found under seat cushions.

History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.

It’s amazing how much “mature wisdom” resembles being too tired.

If you don’t like yourself, you can’t like other people.

Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate--and quickly.

A motion to adjourn is always in order.

No state has an inherent right to survive through conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever has. Roman matrons used to say to their sons: “Come back with your shield, or on it.” Later on this custom declined. So did Rome.

Of all the strange “crimes that human beings have legislated out of nothing, “blasphemy” is the most amazing--with “obscenity” and “indecent exposure” fighting it out for second and third place.

Cheops’ Law: Nothing is ever built on schedule or within budget.

It is better to copulate than never.

All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplus age, excrescence, adornment, luxury or folly which can--and must--be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basic is possible. Attempts to formulate a “perfect society” on any foundation other than “women and children first!” is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly--and no doubt will keep on trying.

All men are created unequal.

Money is a powerful aphrodisiac. But flowers work almost as well.

A brute kills for pleasure. A fool kills from hate.

There is only one way to console a widow. But remember the risk.

When the need arises--and it does--you must be able too shoot your own dog. Don’t farm it out--that doesn’t make it nicer, it makes it worse.

Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks.

It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier.

One man’s theology is another man’s belly laugh.

Sex should be friendly. Otherwise stick to mechanical toys; it’s more sanitary.

Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.

Never appeal to a man’s “better nature.” He may not have one. Invoking his “self—interest” gives you more leverage.

Little girls, like butterflies, need no excuse.

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don’t ever count on having both at once.

Avoid making irrevocable decisions while tired or hungry. N.B.: Circumstances can force your hand. So think ahead!

Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.

An elephant: A mouse built to government specifications.

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded--here and there, now and then--are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as “bad luck.”

In a mature society, “civil servant” is semantically equal to “civil master.”

When a place gets crowded enough to require ID’s, social collapse is not far away. It is time to go elsewhere. The best thing about space travel is that it made it possible to go elsewhere.

A woman is not property, and husbands who think otherwise are living in a dreamworld.

The second best thing about space travel is that the distances involved make war very difficult, usually impractical, and almost always unnecessary. This is probably a loss for most people, since war is our races most popular diversion, one which gives purpose and color to dull and stupid lives. But it is a great boon to the intelligent man who fights only when he must--never for sport.

A zygote is a gamete’s way of producing more gamete’s. This may be the purpose of the universe.

There are hidden contradictions within the minds of people who “love nature” while deploring the “artificialities” with which “Man has spoiled ‘Nature.” The obvious contradiction lies in their choice of words, which imply that Man and his artifacts are not part of “Nature”--but beavers and their damns are. But the contradictions go deeper than this prima-facie absurdity. In declaring his love for a beaver damn (erected by beavers for beaver’s purposes) and his hatred for dams erected by men (for the purpose of men) the “Naturist” reveals his hatred for his own race--i.e., his own self-hatred. In the case of “Naturists” such self—hatred is understandable; they are such a sorry lot. But hatred is too strong an emotion to feel toward them; pity and contempt are the most they rate. As for me, willy-nilly I am a man, not a beaver, and H. Sapiens is the only race I have or can have. Fortunately for me, I like being part of a race made up of men and women-- it strikes me as a fine arrangement and perfectly “natural.” Believe it or not, there were “Naturists” who opposed the first flight to old Earth’s Moon as being “unnatural” and a “despoiling of nature.”

No man is an island--” Much as we may feel and act as individuals, our race is a single organism, always growing and branching--which must be pruned regularly to be healthy. This necessity need not be argued; anyone with eyes can see that any organism which grows without limit always dies within •its own poisons. The only rational question is whether pruning is best done before or after birth. Being an incurable sentimentalist I favor the former of these methods--killing makes me queasy, even when it’s a case of “He’s dead and I’m alive and that’s the way I wanted it to be.” But this may be a matter of taste. Some shamans think that it is better to be killed in a war, or to die in childbirth, or to starve in misery, than never to have lived at all. They may be right. But I don’t have to like it--and I don’t.

Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How’s that again? I missed something.

Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let’s play that over again, too. Who decides?


What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent-it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills.


The truth of a proposition has nothing to do with it’s credibility. And vice versa.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable sub-human who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house.


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects!

Dirk Visser
08-20-2016, 09:39 AM
P. I. Stazzer-Newt,

Strange and Wonderful, with no discernible " thread drift" !!

Many thanks, Dirk

AndyG
08-20-2016, 05:37 PM
Robert Heinlein gets the credit, I think?

Andy

Dirk Visser
08-20-2016, 06:45 PM
Andy & P. I.
See post #101, in which I cashed in my master's ticket.. What is a poor deck swabbie to know about authorship or citations?
Certain I am that you two are a couple of freewheeling guys, who don't stand on ceremony anyway ... In fact, the aforementioned George Hall (the world according to George), he once told me that authorship was obsolete and a distracting remnant of the ego world, and ideas were the only true criteria to judge books by...

But I digress. Just keep in mind that "its always the skippers fault" as we plow this wake over the seas of the information deep...

amish rob
08-20-2016, 07:17 PM
This is the worst coffe shop ever. :)

Dave Wright
08-20-2016, 07:18 PM
...he once told me that authorship was obsolete and a distracting remnant of the ego world......

That's a whole 'nother subject, and probably an annoying attribute of that man George. But lets get down to business, pictures of that 60 foot schooner, pretty please.

Dirk Visser
08-20-2016, 08:25 PM
Hi Dave Wright,
Thanks for giving me that chance. I did find an 8X10 glossy that officer Obie would be proud to enter as evidence with circles and arrows on the back.

Trouble is, I am running this effort from a cheap mobile tablet.
I do have an iphone 5 though, and understand they can be made to do almost anything with adequate coaching..

Private message me and let's run through it..

That man George C Hall , born in the horse and buggy era in Deer Lodge, Montana, was a consistent joy and inspiration to me... His thought defined wisdom, his sense of humor was sublime..As this thread develops I will try to weave in a few of the vignettes.

One I remember this afternoon was set in prewar Hawaii where he was running a sail charter venture.. Returning to Pearl Harbor in company with a US Navy warship they had a sudden jammed halyard crisis, and an audience of Navy sailors lining the rail of their ship in anticipation of shore leave. George's young and athletic wife, without hesitation, leapt to the mainmast and gracefully ascended the masthoops until she could clear the sheave. Then she rode the gaff down to the gooseneck amid whistles and cheers of admiration from the amazed crew sharing the channel...

Different times, but a universal human spirit, alive and well today...

Dave Wright
08-20-2016, 09:54 PM
Discussing the problems of the universe is child's play compared to uploading photos to this forum, especially if all you have is a cheap tablet. I'm using a Samsung 7 inch tablet right now. If your tablet has a camera you can take a picture of that schooner picture with the tablet. You then need to transfer the picture to a photo hosting site like photo bucket, but there are probably better ones available. Depending on the site, you may be able to upload directly to the hosting site, or it may be easier to attach the photo to an email and send it to your personal upload Email address. A photo hosting site may give you one. You can do all of this with a smart phone too.

Once the photo is on the hosting site you can find instructions on this forum to transfer the photo here. Yes, it's a big pain in the ass, but communication is not always easy. Consider it as work, but work for a good purpose, and every bit as honorable as esoteric discussion. Then be happy in your work.:D

Dirk Visser
08-21-2016, 12:17 AM
Ok Dave,
Nice protocol summary, I will spend a bit of time on it and try to get that capability established for here.
I' m certain that the benefits of photo posting will go far beyond a few shots of my time with S/V "Evergreen", the Benford schooner.
In any event, thanks for taking the time to line the sequence out for me.

I see your location is listed as western Washington, my last information about "Evie's" homeport was Shilshole in Seattle.. Ha, ha maybe you will be the first to post her picture, if you are over that way..

Incidentally, your attitude toward "work" as having the characteristics of honor, good purpose, and happiness...I can really get behind!!
Currently, the past ten years, my wife and I have been making about 400 artisan quality soap bars per week, and selling them at local farmer's markets..love making them... love selling them..

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
08-21-2016, 03:12 AM
Robert Heinlein gets the credit, I think?

Andy

Indeed, and without the need to master Maxwell's equations.

Dirk Visser
08-21-2016, 09:05 AM
P.I.,
Your "list" was inspiring, whatever the source, after all, we are often, all of us, standing on the shoulders of giants.!

The Maxwell's equation reference brings up a couple of interesting aspects too:
Symbols like numbers, letters, and words capture quantities, qualities, and character..
Equations and sentences explain relationships.
Could we owe our ability to think coherently, to our ability to manipulate these languages which have thought-structuring capabilities. .?

And that brings up another interesting point. Is mathematics a mental construction, or is it really "out there"?
Created by humans? Or inherent in the abiotics?

amish rob
08-21-2016, 09:43 AM
Math is a language used to describe things words and images cannot.

Was math "out there"? Were English or Farsi "out there"? Did art exist before we invented it?

Our entire world is our creation. That's what makes it easy for us to believe we are the center of it all, because we made it all up...

And, I don't see much difference between a shaman of old trying to explain phenomena, and modern scientists doing the same.
You can't stand on the shoulders of those before you while you slay them, can you?

If the quest is really for the everythingness of knowledge, it seems silly to dismiss religion. Religion, philosophy, and science are sorta cousins, after all.

I first learned of Qi as a young boy, and dismissed it as so much fluff. I was taught about Qi again in college, though it wasn't called Qi, and we were in physics, not philosophy.

That energy flow is all things.

Peace,
Robert

Peerie Maa
08-21-2016, 09:56 AM
If the quest is really for the everythingness of knowledge, it seems silly to dismiss religion. Religion, philosophy, and science are sorta cousins, after all.

Peace,
Robert

Funny sorta cousins. Religion AKA faith is a system of belief not based on proof. Science is a striving for proof. The only way that those three are cousins is that they require a lot of hard thinking to do correctly.

amish rob
08-21-2016, 10:07 AM
I only meant that they were all methods people have used to explain their world. Maybe they can be seen as progressive steps in thinking about the world? At least, different ways of trying to figure it all out.

I don't mean to assign a valuation or claim equivalency, but this thread is about all the knowledge, and I feel the ancient is as valuable as any modern.

I am also not restricting myself to western traditions. Not all religions are the same.

It seems foolish, to me, in this context of all knowledge, to dismiss any type of human thinking or knowledge. I find often people dismiss that which is different, especially if it is "inferior", and those value based judgements have no place here, I think.

Peace,
Robert

Peerie Maa
08-21-2016, 10:25 AM
^Some knowledge, especially the Ancient stuff has ceased to be knowledge, now that we know it to be mistaken.
Also "The opiate of the masses" does not advance us in any way. In fact the best of them evolve as our philosophy's develop, so their only value is as an opiate, and as a vehicle for the occasional good work. Problem with that is would Mother Theresa have done the good work if she were not a catholic nun, probably. And out of the total number of believers, what proportion of them turn into Mother Theresa's?

amish rob
08-21-2016, 12:17 PM
Oh, I didn't start a thread proposing to study the entirety of what people know, and then dismiss a bunch of it as silly. I would never tell another person their beliefs are silly.

My beliefs are my own. I do not push them.

I am NOT in any way advocating religion. I think the one sure thing religion provides is salvation from a pointless existence, which is essentially what we are all seeking, yes? I do not follow any recognized form of organized religion, anymore, though was exposed as a young man.

As to ancient stuff ceasing to be knowledge? Qi. Ancient idea that science proved. Not all the old stuff was proven wrong, and some of that knowledge is all tied up in religion or philosophy. In physics class I realized my sifu was right, all along.

If we are endeavoring here to consider all we know, we can't discount the source material or rough drafts, can we? Not to follow blindly, or accept, but just as a consideration. That's all I meant.

Peace,
Robert

Paul Pless
08-21-2016, 12:26 PM
marinade or dry rub on steaks?

Peerie Maa
08-21-2016, 12:58 PM
I'm not denying any body the right to believe what they want. If it works for them, great.
As to salvation from pointless existence, you need to do something with your existence to stop it being pointless. Turning up with the rest of your congregation every week does not do it. All it does is cement your relationship with your chosen peer group.
If your congregation organises a soup kitchen or something similar that would not be pointless.

Peerie Maa
08-21-2016, 01:01 PM
marinade or dry rub on steaks?

Neither, a little pepper sauce on the side.

AndyG
08-21-2016, 01:18 PM
Was math "out there"?

Maths is certainly out there - a vast ocean of symbolic structure that we're pretty good at grokking. The study of maths reveals truths that are universal and utterly logical. Aliens and AI will do maths that we recognise.

It underlies everything - physics, chemistry, biochemistry, neural structure, psychology, the humanities. As you move outwards from the core, the sciences may 'soften', but they ultimately rely on maths.

I think.

Andy

amish rob
08-21-2016, 01:19 PM
Nick,
Please understand, you are preaching to the choir, as it were. ;) And, thanks for being passionate and polite about your ideas and feelings. And listening to my own, too. :)

I am not defending or advocating religion. To anyone. In any way. At all. Period.

But. A long, long time ago, religious explanations were the science of the day. Those notions are part of human knowledge. All of it is part of the entirety, that's all I meant. What to rail against, as a scientist, if not false ideas, false knowledge?

Dirk dismissed the shaman as a huckster by applying his own modern ideas, thoughts, and values to ancient peoples in other circumstances. Logically foolish to dismiss them, I think, and better to study them. How and why did they really devise these thoughts, other than to scam people? Marduk, Thor, Quetzalcoatl. I want to believe their creations were beautiful and poetic ways to understand the world, not scams to get loot.

Agreeing with an idea is not the same as recognizing it as a valid part of the history of human thought, or knowledge, in my opinion.

Peace,
Robert

amish rob
08-21-2016, 01:21 PM
Maths is certainly out there - a vast ocean of symbolic structure that we're pretty good at grokking. The study of maths reveals truths that are universal and utterly logical. Aliens and AI will do maths that we recognise.

It underlies everything - physics, chemistry, biochemistry, neural structure, psychology, the humanities. As you move outwards from the core, the sciences may 'soften', but they ultimately rely on maths.

I think.

Andy
My friend is a PhD. in math. He tells me math is the one true universal language. Not planetary, but Universal. That sounds beautiful to me, and may be true.

Peace,
Robert

Peerie Maa
08-21-2016, 01:40 PM
Dirk dismissed the shaman as a huckster by applying his own modern id as, thoughts, and values to ancient peoples in other circumstances. Logically foolish to dismiss them, I think, and better to study them.

Peace,
Robert

In which he is wrong.

Shamans perform a variety of functions depending upon their respective cultures;[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#cite_note-multfunc-29) healing,[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#cite_note-sem-shamheal-30)[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#cite_note-31) leading a sacrifice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice),[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#cite_note-32) preserving the tradition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradition) by storytelling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storytelling) and songs,[33] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#cite_note-memory-33) fortune-telling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune-telling),[34] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#cite_note-34) and acting as a psychopomp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp) (literal meaning, "guide of souls").[35] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#cite_note-psychopomp-35) A single shaman may fulfill several of these functions.[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#cite_note-multfunc-29)

<snip>

Many shamans have expert knowledge of medicinal plants native to their area, and an herbal treatment is often prescribed.


Both valuable preservation and use of important knowledge.

Shang
08-21-2016, 01:49 PM
okay i was wrong
hi ish

ish on steroids.

Paul Pless
08-21-2016, 02:01 PM
Peppercorn sauce perhaps?

CWSmith
08-21-2016, 02:41 PM
Math is just logic quantified so that there is an undeniable right answer.

amish rob
08-21-2016, 08:08 PM
Peppercorn sauce perhaps?
First, only grass fed. And I have to have seen him or her on the hoof. I don't generally eat food I don't know the source of.

Then, just a little salt and pepper, please. And medium, and char the corners a bit, if you will, I like the char. :)

Peace,
Robert

Tom Montgomery
08-21-2016, 08:30 PM
Hi Dutch!

Its winter now in Argentina, correct? Being restricted to a wheelchair cannot be good for the circulation. Here's hoping you have plenty of liquor to keep you warm. Along with ear muffs, gloves, thermal socks, and a wool blanket.

How are those beautiful grand daughters doing?

Tom Montgomery
08-21-2016, 08:38 PM
Gentlemen, thanks for your interest.

The subject matter is everything we know, and an exploration of that interface between what our senses bring us and how we formulate ideas.
If you were serious I would tell you.

Seriously.

Dave Wright
08-21-2016, 08:42 PM
Hi Dutch!

Its winter now in Argentina, correct? Being restricted to a wheelchair cannot be good for the circulation. Here's hoping you have plenty of liquor to keep you warm. Along with ear muffs, gloves, thermal socks, and a wool blanket.

How are those beautiful grand daughters doing?


A couple of times in past years I was actually able to have an intelligent exchange or two about boats with Dutch. This new guy Dirk isn't Dutch. I think Dutch posts over on Sailing Anarchy on occasion, and relatively recently too. I'd like to see the first post of this thread opening up a new thread on Sailing Anarchy - there would be some responses worth a very good laugh.

Dirk Visser
08-21-2016, 11:10 PM
I knew I came to the right place! A very cogent discussion, well focused at times, but wide ranging, just what l had hopes we could develop here on a good day...Appreciated..!!

Dave Wright,
Thanks for clearing up the "Dutch" I. D. confusion..
Ha, ha! The Sailing Anarchy site?

Reminds me a little of the old days (1974) when I broke into the industry in a modest salmon gillnet boat in Puget Sound, the 26' Columbia River double-ender f/v "Semiahmoo Kid". A tough little low freeboard sailing hull powered by a 4 cyl. Greymarine flathead gas. But even so, seaworthy as that vessel was, it was three years before I ventured out of the "Old Ladies Playground" of the boundary waters around Point Roberts to the much more serious fishing grounds of the Salmon Banks , and later in a newer boat, Neah Bay and Tatoosh island, both in the straights of Juan de Fuca .

The Small Craft Advisor message board where I posted this past year was the home waters of the lower Georgia Straight, this place is the Salmon Banks in front of the San Juans, challenging enough in it's own right..Sailing Anarchy is like Neah Bay, at the western end of the straights, open ocean essentially, with all that implies..

Plus, would it even be worth it?
Who over there could talk this talk the way you guys can?

Dirk Visser
08-22-2016, 01:46 AM
Tom Montgomery, et al.

"Just say it Dirk!" dept.

We might live in a very familiar interface between the data supplied by our sensory apparatus , and the interpretations developed by the cerebral cortex.

We may have greatly extended the breadth, depth, and detail of this interface by means of our cherished instrumentality and "gear", but it appears to remain a strictly limited relationship between our incoming sense data and the resultant thoughts.

Opinion, emotion, assumptions, intuition, insights, imagination, faith, and many other qualities of thought appear to be the products of this mind-matter consortium.



The place where interpretations founder appears to lie in our over reliance on the rational quadrant of Order ...have we not placed all of our confidence in the weighing and measuring side of our investigation, that is, the reasoned mathematical facts?

Accurate and dependable as science might be, look carefully where it has landed us ! In explaining how things endure we are only exploring 25% of the interpretive levels of knowing...

Our version of reality is sadly myopic in 2016.

There are three more domains of order coming out of the prism.
..and now, at this stage of our mental development we need to give them the credibility, economic and political, we have heretofore reserved only for the rational " truths".

Art and aesthetics have much to say and are well understood. Music, architecture, dance, sculpture, painting, etc. (Often rewarded posthumously)

Ethics is the third vantage point we survey reality from , but it is only poorly developed in the human mind ...All of Law and jurisprudence, sure, not a bad start. The ideals are there but the application is still pathetic. Distribution of wealth, need I say more?

Interestingly enough, there are imperatives of order that run right across these first 3 domains.
Rythym
Symmetry
Harmony
Repetition
Equity
Balance
Fairness
Proportion
Interlock
...and many more .. Sometimes the names change depending on what we are building or investigating..

***

The fourth domain of order is the Escaladient.
The realization that none of this is finished, and seems to have increasing power and complexity as it develops.
Imperatives, things that have to be there to make it go, in the fourth domain are different.
They might include abstractions like faith, hope, charity, empathy, sympathy, trust, compassion, etc.
How are we doing with those? Blame the survival game and the gene for any disappointment you might feel here!
The scientist to date will only go as far as aknowledging complexity, and he will admit no meaning or value to his discoveries, beyond the technical, medical, military, or economic, applications.

This is where we are stuck now. The abiotics and the gene made the world , working together ...
We have cracked the operating codes:

Periodic Table of Elements
natural selection
DNA life replication molecule
Mandelbrot Sets

We are now calling the shots, the gene is still here, but too damn slow..
It's all great, but why is the world always such a mess if we are really this smart..?

Peerie Maa
08-22-2016, 03:08 AM
It's all great, but why is the world always such a mess if we are really this smart..?

Because as a species, we are selfish, greedy, and cannot think further than next week.

Dirk Visser
08-22-2016, 09:30 AM
Math is just logic quantified so that there is an undeniable right answer.
Indeed, this little word, logic, it represents the metaphorical steel structure upon which everything is hung.
We couldn't make sense of anything in our surroundings without it and actually the surroundings could not themselves exist without logic's organizational and formative power.

The single logic connector is the fundamental unit and building block of existence.

Groups of bits form ensembles and eventually items...

Dirk Visser
08-22-2016, 09:48 AM
Because as a species, we are selfish, greedy, and cannot think further than next week.
Do you reckon the "genetic/food chain" strategy might have had something to do with that?

Could we begin to think of that lash-up as an act of desperation, for the purposes of moving things along now?

Dave Wright
08-22-2016, 09:56 AM
Reminds me a little of the old days.....



Ah! How the mind works! I read that and my mind immediately jumped to the cartoon character Major Hoople. I enjoyed that strip. Hadn't seen it in thirty odd years, so I googled a few frames. Funny stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that you're Major Hoople.....no.......well........maybe.

Peerie Maa
08-22-2016, 10:13 AM
Do you reckon the "genetic/food chain" strategy might have had something to do with that?

Could we begin to think of that lash-up as an act of desperation, for the purposes of moving things along now?
Without knowing what that phrase refers to, I could not possibly comment.

Arizona Bay
08-22-2016, 11:02 AM
The mind, fascinating as always... like watching a self-licking ice cream cone. :)

Vince Brennan
08-22-2016, 11:32 AM
1 + 1 = 2

2 + 2 = 22

und so weiter....

Dirk Visser
08-22-2016, 02:47 PM
Without knowing what that phrase refers to, I could not possibly comment.
Peerie Maa, (143)
Dogonne ! Did I leave the caution label off that box again before I shipped it?

It said:
STOP!
THINK!
LIFT!

Seriously though this phrase is just a quick way to express a strategy and process that nature has employed to develop our ability to survive in our surroundings, and actually at these levels, to exhibit curiosity regarding our own origins. Chemicals have been evolved that can form and manipulate thought.!

You said something about the difficulty of building an ugly wooden boat...Imagine the challenge of getting conscious thought and free will out of a rock and a flame...

Dirk Visser
08-23-2016, 01:48 PM
The rules?

Chuck into the pot:

1 Three spatial dimensions. One temporal dimension. (Further spatial dimensions may be present at Planck scales).

2 Constants: 25 of these. Maybe more. The fine-structure one is particularly intriguing. Maybe less: some of these constants could be emergent phenomena as the pot cools.

3 Energy: an awful lot. Imagine - though you can't - the mass of a trillion, trillion stars turned into raw energy.

Room? Don't worry, this mix makes up space as it goes.

While things might look a little cloudy at first, things start to settle down within a few hundred million years, and get genuinely impressive after a few billion.

4 Kicking, gouging and punching below the belt are expected for all evolving lifeforms.

Andy
Hi Andy,

I like the wide scope summary of initiating conditions and eventual outcomes...
Rules, yeah, that could be an easier first approach to the formative power of the rigor of logic.

..And in that cooling, precipitating, clumping, and differentiating of the bulk matter of the universe...
..a "fitment program" is evolving too, and busy holding it all together , and locking energy into the physical and chemical bonds ....

Dirk Visser
08-25-2016, 12:36 PM
As I glance over the subjects entered here in the Bilge recently I cannot fail to be impressed by the richness of variety and depth of analysis ...
Over the past year it's been a satisfying personal source of news and opinion and inspiring displays of visual and audible "art" .
The artifact is loaded with meaning. For example, the recent "Fishing Boat Pron" thread, was dazzling in its demonstration of how the realities of the marine environment and the character of wood can so sweetly and beautifully shape an item.
That there are aesthetics flowing out of our connection with nature is hard to deny looking at the gracefully curved lines of those boats...

Peerie Maa
08-25-2016, 12:41 PM
Peerie Maa, (143)
Dogonne ! Did I leave the caution label off that box again before I shipped it?

It said:
STOP!
THINK!
LIFT!

Seriously though this phrase is just a quick way to express a strategy and process that nature has employed to develop our ability to survive in our surroundings, and actually at these levels, to exhibit curiosity regarding our own origins. Chemicals have been evolved that can form and manipulate thought.!

Actually you are totally wrong. Stop think lift is system 2 thinking. It is system 1 thinking that was evolved as a survival trait. Best described as What's that? Run away!

Dirk Visser
08-25-2016, 01:29 PM
Here's another angle that might help clarify the focus on one of the central tenents I am hoping to get help with as we try to develop the " nature's survival game as an adaptive mold for consciousness" point of view.

Let's forget about the mind and thinking, put aside for the moment cosmic origins, imagination and creativity, curiosity and emotions. ..just restrict our attention to what the genetic strategy has been able to accomplish with the physical human body..

The hope is that this simplified orientation will be less prone to controversy and misunderstanding.
An axiomatic table of contents is really all I had hoped to achieve in this initial presentation of the ideas.
Like on a sunny day, one guy says to the other, " Gee, the daylight is sunny today." It holds up pretty well just like that.

Anyway, on to the matter at hand.
The realities of the planetary environment here on earth have dictated much of what we see in the present-day human form. Here's a short, and incomplete list:

Gravity: size and wieght appropriate for speed generation.
Sound: 360 degree sensory capability, wide frequency range.
Light: 180 degree coverage, binocular vision, iris control, peripheral motion. sensitivities, receptor location at highest point.
Olfactory: wide range to detect danger or potential mates, nose above mouth. to protect ingestion. Arboreal environment: opposible thumb, grasping power.
Social groupings: voice, language


Ok..a small sample but do you see the axiomatic character of the Darwinian shaping taking place?

Ok Nick, I will buy that. " System 1" thinking is already in my shopping cart! (What is that? , and run away)

Tell me more about system 2 thinking...

Could it help us as humans supecede the dominance of the gene being shaped by nature's survival game...

...and search for a way to bridge this crucial "crossover point" in geologic and evolutionary time?

Peerie Maa
08-25-2016, 02:27 PM
Ok Nick, I will buy that. " System 1" thinking is already in my shopping cart! (What is that? , and run away)

Tell me more about system 2 thinking...

Could it help us as humans supecede the dominance of the gene being shaped by nature's survival game...

...and search for a way to bridge this crucial "crossover point" in geologic and evolutionary time?

Here is an illustration of the difference between the two:

Adding two and two is done using what Kahneman (http://www.businessinsider.com/nobel-prize-winner-this-is-the-difference-between-thinking-fast-and-slow-2012-6?IR=T) calls System 1 thinking, the kind of fast thinking that feels like it is done on autopilot. The product of 17 and 24 is arrived at using System 2 thinking – slow, deliberate thinking that involves an entirely different physiological process, one that (for example) interferes with driving a car.

When you engage in intense System 2 thinking, Kahneman says, something happens to your body. Your pupils dilate. Your heart rate increases. Your blood glucose level drops. You become irritable if someone or something interrupts your focus. You become partially deaf and partially blind to stimuli that ordinarily command your attention. Kahneman writes that “intense focusing on a task can make people effectively blind.”
My grown son recently reported an occurrence of a related phenomenon, blindness caused by having made up one’s mind. While he was preparing to perform in a concert, his girlfriend paid him a surprise visit, hundreds of miles from either his home or hers. Despite increasing efforts to recognize the strangely familiar person approaching him from a distance, he couldn’t figure out who she was until she was quite close. There is nothing wrong with my son’s eyesight. Having decided, using System 1 thinking, that his girlfriend was far away, it was physically impossible for him to see her until she was right under his nose. He was unable to invoke System 2 thinking to figure out that maybe she had taken an unplanned trip. He was temporarily blinded by an idea.



So System 1 thinking relies on learned data, and is very hard to challenge, even when you are fed data that contradicts your system 1 thinking (dogma or prejudice). System 2 requires a lot of effort, and so as often or not people do not do it, and fail to learn from changing circumstances.

Dirk Visser
08-25-2016, 04:32 PM
Thanks Nick,
That short summary of the two distinct ways of thinking is new to me, and represents a helpful and hopeful lead.

I will research Kahneman's work and get back to you in the coming days..

This is exactly the kind of work I was hoping to get back into with the help of the guidance of fellow mariners....

-Dirk

Peerie Maa
08-26-2016, 05:25 AM
This might interest you and provides references to work on the topic
https://qmro.qmul.ac.uk/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/151/Evaluation%20of%20dual%20process%20theories.pdf?se quence=8

Dirk Visser
09-01-2016, 12:19 PM
Thanks Nick, for the scholarly and insightful reference!
My interpretation might be that yes indeed "System 2" thinking shows clearly that we have left strict genetic control far behind already...and may be developing nascent powers of deeper thought to get out of this mess!

Did you see the Ursula K. Leguin thread that David G. started, Aug 30, currently still on page 1..?
They are talking about the chance of achieving a crossover mentality over there, though the concept has not been identified as such..Ursula was Alfred and Theodore Kroeber's daughter, two anthropologists of "Ishi" fame over at Berkeley. They brought him out of the Mt. Lessen wilderness.

Reminds me of that Siberia native " Dersu Uzala" . in the movie the explorer kapitan brings him home to Moscow due to Dersu's failing eyesight, Dersu's wonderful question after being busted chopping trees in Gorky Park is: " Why do men come to town and sit around in boxes?"

Back to developing the point though,
Three modes of knowing:

Thinking
Feeling
Action

More..?

Dirk Visser
09-02-2016, 06:48 PM
An interesting general observation that got my attention this afternoon, we were discussing which minds make the paradigm-changing breakthroughs in any given arena of human inquiry..
Einstein for example, turned physics on its head as a young man and then spent the next 40 years trying to make sense of his own theories .

The point was that the young, fresh, unconditioned mind has historically done well, youthful vigor, new eyes, and clear conceptual horizons ..
But the older, seasoned, wisdom-imbued researcher, still curious about what it may all have meant also rates high in the advancement of human thought ..

paulf
09-02-2016, 07:00 PM
An interesting general observation that got my attention this afternoon, we were discussing which minds make the paradigm-changing breakthroughs in any given arena of human inquiry..
Einstein for example, turned physics on its head as a young man and then spent the next 40 years trying to make sense of his own theories .

The point was that the young, fresh, unconditioned mind has historically done well, youthful vigor, new eyes, and clear conceptual horizons ..
But the older, seasoned, wisdom-imbued researcher, still curious about what it may all have meant also rates high in the advancement of human thought ..

Also, Einstein was a reviewer for the patent office, this meant he reviewed all the best and "worse" ideas from all over. If he did so intentionally or unintentionally he was privy to the greatest ideas in Europe at the time. That rubs off. Not saying he cheated, but he was exposed to diverse thoughts most don't get to review.

Tom Montgomery
09-02-2016, 07:18 PM
Gentlemen, thanks for your interest.
The subject matter is everything we know, and an exploration of that interface between what our senses bring us and how we formulate ideas.
"Everything we know", and the ideas we consequently formulate, are constantly expanding.

But our senses increasingly limit our ability to know more. Our knowledge will continue to expand only to the extent that we are able to use technology to detect and process information beyond our limited senses.

Tom Montgomery
09-02-2016, 07:27 PM
Modern physics strongly indicates that the mind of God is essentially mathematical.

Liberal Arts majors are screwed.

Dirk Visser
09-03-2016, 12:14 AM
Ha, ha! It's a fair point Tom, and also true that the instrumentality card is somewhat useless to play in this hand. Just deeper detail, no broadening power, right? I get confused here.

I will come to the defense of the liberal arts guy though.

Physics and math need to admit there is beauty in the world too, and that it is an important motivator and proof of precision.
The equation is "elegant" when it explains the case simply and economically, and the derivation has obvious intuitive support.

The line is fair...and there is a very pleasing truth in that beauty. It runs all through nature, and the artifacts of culture.. We recognize it consistently, and yes it depends on physics for its forms and endurance, and can be described mathematically, but it is something apart from physics and material...
Another domain of order entirely..
And we have no real agreement about why it exists.
Beauty, Aesthetics , what the hell is it for?

Dirk Visser
09-03-2016, 12:25 AM
Also, Einstein was a reviewer for the patent office, this meant he reviewed all the best and "worse" ideas from all over. If he did so intentionally or unintentionally he was privy to the greatest ideas in Europe at the time. That rubs off. Not saying he cheated, but he was exposed to diverse thoughts most don't get to review.

I had no idea..
...probably explains a lot about his ability to look underneath processes and go right to the heart of things in his own thought formulations..

Peerie Maa
09-03-2016, 04:09 AM
Also, Einstein was a reviewer for the patent office, this meant he reviewed all the best and "worse" ideas from all over. If he did so intentionally or unintentionally he was privy to the greatest ideas in Europe at the time. That rubs off. Not saying he cheated, but he was exposed to diverse thoughts most don't get to review.

The Olympia Academy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia_Academy) might have been more important to Albert.

Gerarddm
09-03-2016, 08:23 AM
Might 'Dirk' be Robert Persig?

amish rob
09-03-2016, 09:00 AM
Might 'Dirk' be Robert Persig?
Dude,
Oldest son and I just read Motorcycle Maintenence together. Haha.


How about this for this crazy mess? Some scholars who study the ancients have uncovered tales of the creation of man, that indicate we were made human from animals already here on earth.

Is it possible that this blossoming of intelligence that came when we "became" human could have been bred or spliced into our genes, creating us from lower animals? Perhaps we didn't evolve our intelligence at all, but were gifted it?

Zecariah Sitchin is one example. A scholar and translator of early languages, one of them being Cuneiform. He wrote some crazy books about it all...

These aren't necessarily beliefs I am advocating, but for the purpose of this, whatever, shouldn't ALL the possibilities be considered.
Maybe part of what we know is imported?

Peace,
Robert

Peerie Maa
09-03-2016, 09:16 AM
Robert,
You should apply Occam's razor. When so many creatures also demonstrate intelligence, corvids (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160426101527.htm), Octopi (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-octopuses-smart/) to name but two, there is no other explanation needed than it gives an evolutionary advantage, and so arose naturally.

amish rob
09-03-2016, 09:30 AM
Nick,
Agreed. But... Humans changed fast, relatively speaking. Ag, society, all that mess happened pretty quickly. Perhaps the most simple answer in that case would be tampering.

Hammurabi's Code, for example, seems awfully complete and well thought out to have occurred so early in the history of civilization, I think.

Also, why have all animals not evolved to our level of intelligence? If man is the yardstick, everything should be heading this way? Why did the other apes stop, for example? Chimps, gorillas, et al.

I just thought, too, it could relate to the System 1 and 2 types of thinking. System 2 is a higher, advanced form of thinking introduced into our machine, as it were? A new program that advanced us as animals. Maybe it was some brain virus, or some bacteria? Perhaps we exist simply to create a stronger virus or bacteria? Maybe, maybe, maybe. Nobody knows.

Again. I don't really believe this to be true, but it is interesting to consider as a possibility. Especially in this open ended arena, yeah?

Peace,
Robert

Peerie Maa
09-03-2016, 10:08 AM
Robert, we were intelligent long before we settled down to farm.
Evolution is driven by changing environments that create opportunities to be exploited or in response to a predator/prey arms race.
In the case of all of those myriad of creatures that did not move far along the route of intelligence, they had no need to evolve it, they were and are doing very nicely thank you.

P.S. do not slag off chimps and gorillas like that. Chimps are tool users, which used to be the definition of "human", and gorillas can learn sign language.

amish rob
09-03-2016, 10:31 AM
Nick,
Agreed, humans were intelligent for a long time. Great ape intelligent. The leap with ag and cities and all that is higher reasoning, I think. Real thinking. And it started kind of suddenly. I don't KNOW how or why, but for the purpose of this, I though it important to add that some think our minds were made, or modified.

I tend to think it was cooking that led to our spectacular leap, but that is me.

There is much evidence that hunter/gatherers were actually farmers of sorts, tending the environment, but that is a far cry from squares of dirt purposefully irrigated, constructed irrigation systems, animals penned and tended, and crops stored for future use. To say nothing of the bureaucracy to maintain it all. Lots of higher order thinking involved.

Oh, and I don't mean to slag any animals. I have a pet Raven, of sorts, and a pet scrub jay. The Raven likes to move my stuff around. Seriously. He will swoop down and snatch my paint key in a minute. He puts it on the roof, the sits in the pecan tree to watch me fetch it. I swear his little chortles are laughter. He also figured out how to open the latch on our icebox on the porch and get in to eat stuff. He likes butter a LOT!
The scrub jay just sits right above me in the tree while I work. He follows me all around the yard, all day. He will watch and watch me, and sometimes eat cat food from my hand. He knows me, that is for sure, and I can't deny he is smart. I'm apt to believe he is much smarter than me, that's for sure. :)

Peace,
Robert

Peerie Maa
09-03-2016, 10:39 AM
^I agree, learning to cook freed us up from the need to chew and digest for such a long time most probably did accelerate out intelligence by giving us the time to develop and exchange new ideas.

paulf
09-03-2016, 10:39 AM
There is also a critical mass, when all the cards are in the right order and then there is an explosion of enlightenment. The last 150 years comes to mind.

Osborne Russell
09-03-2016, 10:53 AM
Extra-terrestrials are no less supernatural than Gods. Supernatural intervention is religion in drag. People crave meaning that transcends death.

amish rob
09-03-2016, 10:58 AM
Extra-terrestrials are no less supernatural than Gods. Supernatural intervention is religion in drag. People crave meaning that transcends death.

Oooh. I like this...

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
09-08-2016, 12:48 PM
Some scenic pans in the twisties!
Thanks for warming to the subject a bit here guys ... The open discussion is indeed a powerful machine.

As deck-swabbie moderator, I would only hope to reel your intriguing speculations in slightly, and draw your attention back to the environment, our sensory apparatus that was developed out of it, and the neural chain that serves to interpret that information flow..

To see this resulting "intelligence" as a result of a structure of stimula, might be a coherent way to assess our situation now, as we enter the crossover phase of evolution, a takeover phase really where we determine ourselves, what we are to become..

Three modes of knowing:
Thinking
Feeling
Action

Four domains of order:
Reason
Aesthetics
Ethics
Spirituality

This combination represents a "structure of stimula" which has produced consciousness in nature, represents it working today, and can be read for specific and universal meaning.

We are unique, individuated thinking and communicating bits, unique experience gatherers... that has been the successful strategy, but we are having some trouble appreciating the implications, in our present position of great power..

amish rob
09-08-2016, 12:55 PM
What makes you think we are unique?

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
09-08-2016, 04:58 PM
Hi Rob,

Several things actually.

Nature cannot make two identical items. Witness the snowflake, or leaves on a tree, or molecules in a crystal , all subtlety different. Infinite variation, amid endless repetition seems to be one of the dominant characteristics of our reality here

Another view of it: Even if you had a twin with identical DNA endowment your experiences would diverge starting at conception, and would continue to shape you in profoundly unique ways throughout the life cycle..

Do you seriously doubt that you, yourself , could be anything other than an individuated bit of consciousness with a unique worldview, based on the personal experiences you have had, and the responses you have made in this life ...?

amish rob
09-08-2016, 05:01 PM
Dirk,
Apologies. I though we were talking a bigger we. Each individual is unique, of course. I thought you meant the human intelligence, not the individual.

I thought we were talking the evolution, if you will, of consciousness, not the individual journey.

Once again, I have spoken when I should have been silent.

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
09-08-2016, 05:25 PM
No worries Mate!
And I do get that we may not be unique as intelligence in the universe at all, taking it as the "We"..

..and part of me longs to know that is true. I assume it because of the vastness of the cosmos, and the durability of Logic... But I have no proof, and am limited to explorations of what has been done out of deep time, here on earth with our physics, chemistry, art, and thought. In other words, "Earth Consciousness "

I do intuit that other forms of intelligence may be very similar though, based on the similarities we see as we look outward from our planet..

Gravity, matter, motion, polarities, light, space and its constraints... They all are observable "out there"..

Dirk Visser
09-11-2016, 11:17 PM
Considering how we sense and interpret our environment is the beginning of any deep appraisal of what the achievement of cognition and thought might imply about the specific character of our world...., the adaptive mold for body and mind we have now recently brought under our tentative control.

A logic schema like the durable structured environment we inhabit has tremendous instructional power in the moment- to-moment for individuals, as any seasoned mariner can well attest to, but also great formative influence on all innovations, over time, as the designer readily embraces.

The logic of necessity that informs the mechanistic side, how things endure and perform, is well quantified, in "natural law" and mathematics...
....but what of a fuzzier logic, that of mutation and innovation, that might be a glimpse of "the end in view", driving the process?

"Experience is the best teacher", could it be the only one in a cultural sense?

We reduce experience to events..and then form the narratives which make sense of them.
But notice what the narrative and the event are readily reduced to in all cases:

Changes in the ordering of material and mind...

AndyG
10-01-2016, 06:53 PM
As a child I had a book which explained cartography. One page demonstrated how an accessible baseline (in the book's case, this side of an uncrossable river) enabled someone to measure distances using geometry. That is, it allowed a surveyor to better model reality by viewing the world from two separate positions.

All well and good. It sunk in. And, being a Ladybird book, the pictures were nice.

As a student I (ahem) took a few chemicals which enabled me to view reality from different perspectives. What I thought I 'knew' wasn't, in several instances, what reality was all about. It was different, and like 'so' (but, of course, always open for later re-interpretation).

Our minds, bathed in internal chemicals, see the world in a particular way. It's naturally handy for hunter-gatherer primates living in a hostile environment at the scales of time and space which most benefit us in terms of reproductive efficiency.

But is it right?

...No.

It does nothing to prepare us for an innate understanding of quantum dynamics or relativity, for example: the reality of scales very much different to our own, but as 'true' as anything can be.

What is amazing, is that we have the ability to formulate ideas and test them on scales vastly outwith the 'natural' ones we can encompass.

Stuff the mere idea of 'aesthetics' and the like. The thing I find most fascinating is our potential awareness to understand totality. Sure, you might need a degree in mathematics or similar to explain the details, but the fact an intelligence (our intelligence) can 'grok' the spacetime continuum and/or quantum effects is simply fantastic.

We're not built for it, but its equations are ours to use.

...And so we do.

Andy (if requested, I shall tell the tale of 'not yellow')


.

Dirk Visser
10-03-2016, 04:08 PM
Sure Andy ,
I'll set the gear on that!
What is the "tale of not yellow" ?

I am confident in asking because I find your posts to be consistently mind expanding and enlightening... whatever the thread.

AndyG
10-04-2016, 06:52 PM
Here goes.

There are no receptors for 'yellow' in the human retina. Yet those of us who aren't colour-blind have a quale for 'yellowness', a subjective feeling and understanding for all things yellow that we can recognise as quite different to red, green and blue - those being the colours we can receive.

I'm sitting in a yellow kitchen as I type this. It's a fresh, uplifting and particularly lovely colour in sunlight. But the colour is a construct, not real.

'Wait a moment', you might say, 'it's light at a wavelength of about 575nm. If we can't see it, how can we see it?'

My answer takes two approaches.

The first is cultural. We are taught about yellow. It's a primary colour in painting (but not in light terms) that we meet very early on in our lives. Homer's 'wine-dark sea' is a similar cultural concept. What does Homer mean? We can't 'know' for sure: we weren't acculturated in ancient Greece. We might reasonably doubt the Mediterranean was chianti-coloured two and a half thousand years ago, and must therefore suspect some other colour-element of wine-ness and sea-ness that spoke to that audience. There are other examples. Anglo-Saxons termed the colour we know as 'orange' (they had no oranges) as 'russet', a colour stretching across the brown/red tones, but whose limits we can only guess at.

The second approach is technical. Our feeling for things yellow kicks in when our red and green receptors are stimulated together, while the blue receptors sit idly by. In light terms, yellow is rightly known as minus-blue.

It's 1989. There I was, pondering Homer and yellow and qualia (as you do) in a state of mind a little different from normal (as I did) when I decided to take a very close look at a white, textured wall that, in dim lamp-light, looked vaguely yellow.

And I was delighted to see that it wasn't yellow at all: it was, quite distinctly and without any shadow of a doubt, both red and green at one and the same time.

I felt as if I'd broken through some cultural baggage and was, for a spell, truly hooked into my sensors.

575nm is two colours. There is no yellow.

Andy

Dirk Visser
10-05-2016, 03:57 PM
Hi Andy,
Another good haul, on your recent tip!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow

Color vision, an excellent subject to explore as an illustration of the "interface" we create with the environment here as individuals, groups, species, and expressions of what nature is capable of building to interpret herself, here in the biosphere..!

That we need a unifying overview from which to survey the scene of totality is a given at this point of
human development and power..

Politics: mired in nationalism and opinion, failing
Religion: insufficient scope and depth, failing
Market Economics: inadequate boundary controls, failing
Genetic Evolution: oustripped by technology, failing

Dirk Visser
10-05-2016, 04:05 PM
What does this situation suggest?
It might be encumbent upon us to reinterpret our place here in light of our recently acquired power to bring it all down!

A direct look inthe eye with the Gene, and a thank you!
But now we are putting you on hold while we develop an ethical side based on a new look at nature which our science has recently illuminated?

Dirk Visser
10-07-2016, 01:44 AM
Red and green ....no blue ... Yellow a synthesized construct ...
5 million receptors.
Are we to believe this is not the highest intensity point of order in the observable universe?

A fitment program that allows sensitivity, transmission, interpretation, and action?
The stars are not it ... The cutting edge, the spearpoint of innovation, is right down here with the little human, struggling it out....the fight is here, now...........

Dirk Visser
10-08-2016, 10:39 PM
Here's another quick shot over the bow for a Saturday night:

It might well be a two story universe, a mental universe of ideas, connections, and relationships; (potentia),
...and a physical universe of matter and energy (observable reality).

As above, so below..!

What's the one science all others must dance to?
That's axiomatic..! Logic, the basis of rational thought..

So check this out:
All our investigations and experience can be reduced to an attempt to fit a topography of logic , point for point, evenly down on the stimula and datum of nature...and now culture as well..

Those failing institutions of a couple of posts ago?
Take heart , there's a certain nobility there that represents all our progress to date, and our best hope of finding our sustainable, creative , and peaceful true place on the home planet..

But we have got to leave the genetic survival game and that terrible suite of fatal neurotransmitters behind us soon...

Peerie Maa
10-10-2016, 08:38 AM
The first is cultural. We are taught about yellow. It's a primary colour in painting (but not in light terms) that we meet very early on in our lives. Homer's 'wine-dark sea' is a similar cultural concept. What does Homer mean? We can't 'know' for sure: we weren't acculturated in ancient Greece. We might reasonably doubt the Mediterranean was chianti-coloured two and a half thousand years ago, and must therefore suspect some other colour-element of wine-ness and sea-ness that spoke to that audience. There are other examples. Anglo-Saxons termed the colour we know as 'orange' (they had no oranges) as 'russet', a colour stretching across the brown/red tones, but whose limits we can only guess at.


Andy

The Greeks also thought that their sky was "brassy".
Then there is
The Himba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himba_people) of northern Namibia (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13890726) - who had never even set foot in a local town - call the sky black and water white, and for them, blue and green share the same word. From Wiki
The OvaHimba use four colour names: zuzu stands for dark shades of blue, red, green and purple; vapa is white and some shades of yellow; buru is some shades of green and blue; and dambu is some other shades of green, red and brown.

Dirk Visser
10-14-2016, 03:02 PM
"Introduction to Biosocial Medicine"

The social, psychological, and biological determinants of human behavior and well-being.
Donald A. Barr, MD, PhD

Johnson Hopkins University Press
2015

This little book I happened onto yesterday in Palo Alto by a professor of pediatrics and education at Stanford, is the best interdisciplinary approach I have ever gotten my hands on to frame the parameters of the problem staring back at us as we navigate the perilous waters of the crossover phase, out of genetic and into intentional evolution.

A sociologist as well as physician, he illustrates how the biology of neurons, the intricacies of the human mind, and the power of broad social forces all influence individual perceptions and responses.

At the kernel of his thought, he suggests that behavior has three core components:

1. our perception of external stimuli;
2. our interpretation of those stimuli; and
3. our response to that interpretation.

This basic introduction to how we live is followed up by some deep and wide-ranging background and motivational analysis, applying culture and biology in an appealing mash-up.

A very hopeful sign for a pilotless compartmentalized bulk carrier on an ominous course for a rockbound shore..
Yes, that would be us, busy making lots of money, stripping the planet, working away below decks, with no one with any effective power on watch, or at the helm..
Hello.?

Dirk Visser
10-15-2016, 08:05 PM
That order itself could have an evolutionary story of it's own is a concept which may be worth consideration..
All understanding, acceptance, and creation represents a "next step" processing success!
A few sample leads could serve as illustration:

Gravity, in all it's mystery and power is no longer cutting edge stuff. It was a property of mass as far back in time as we can see, and it exists everywhere, embodying both faster than light signaling and action at a distance. "Not a leaf falls, but that a star is troubled."

The "abiotic environment" of inorganic chemistry and Newtonian physics has similarly been figured out eons ago, judging from what we see "out there".

Newer stuff that still have works in progress status might silicon chip architecture or detailing of the human genome...

The inorganic and organic fitment programs running through nature have this power to organize chaos, to give an intricate structure and microfine character to the bulk matter of the universe. This is the site of the most recent innovations.

Logic and power are dynamically locked in fitment,...it worked!
And we do love that, whenever and wherever we can make it happen...and it is again, us!

Dirk Visser
10-18-2016, 08:23 PM
Fitment, a key concept, but only vaguely familiar..

The mechanism by which logic brings potentia to precision in the forming of matter and energy..
Order could be thought of as a dynamic filtering sieve in this process, allowing only that which "Fits" to make the ascent to existence..

Put another way, something is imagined, say gunpowder ...Knowledge and experience is applied, formulas are tested, here in the world.
The fitment program of chemistry is at some point matched up with the imagination.. Ideas and reality become congruent and energy is suddenly released. That's fitment working...

In search of a start on our "topography", look at the sun, hydrogen and helium burning...ultimately a logical concept, mental, made material, an early fitment program...

Dirk Visser
10-25-2016, 12:04 AM
Imagination, innovation, creativity, invention...what is the groundstuff that these immensely crucial refinements to simple order rest down on ?

In a nutshell, it can be reduced to novel juxtapositioning of the parts...again,..successful fitment.

The next-step process of evolution is vulnerable, some might argue designed to be, usurped by the technology that rational mind is capable of imagining, testing, and bringing to existence .

Successful consciousness is primarily associative. A relational system of logic..

Take weaponry as an example, since that theme always hovers on the periphery of every new idea.

The power to smash at a distance. The sling, arrow, and thrown rock, the dumb lead pellet.
The nuclear missile...

A disintegrative goal, a destructive event.

Homo Sapiens yet?

Dirk Visser
10-29-2016, 01:06 AM
Here's another quick glimpse at what we are always looking at but never seem to be able to readily get into focus...
Logic itself can evolve. What is in the realm of the possible Is a flexible concept . Today it'ain't gonna happen .... But tomorrow?
The actual wants to break through.

bobbys
10-29-2016, 01:43 AM
Next thing you are going to tell me is the cubs are in the world series..

Dirk Visser
11-22-2016, 10:34 PM
Uh yeah, thanks bobby's, beautiful cultural example!

And while I've been gone, was happy to notice a couple of other good leads in a meaningful direction.

One was the " fallacies of logic" by Ishmael... A brilliant demonstration of the limited conception we currently accept of this all powerful concept.
The syllogism: if this, then that, is only the beginning.. Logics of statement, and truth derivitives, are a blind alley compared to the open ended formative power of an infinite number of complex end-orientated evolving fitment programs..

Mathematics is a branch of logic, yes, and a telling glimpse is that a non-linear fractal equation can generate a recognizable fern species in graphic presentation of a " Mandelbrot set".
Imagine the formative power of complex Logics we have yet to discover.

The other noteworthy thread from this perspective was "The Puzzle of Water". A very unexpected confirmation of the deep complexity in ordinary things..

I remain optimistic about the spirit and benefits of creative minds coming together to exchange ideas here in the over 2000 year old tradition of a "Forum"..As I have affirmed before, there is tremendous power in the Dialouge.

Gold in bilgewater? Go figure!

Dirk Visser
11-30-2016, 03:09 AM
Totality Basics:

It is one thing to appreciate the human psyche as an individuated bit of consciousness immersed in a sea of information.. It takes making the next step to realize that the information in substance itself is structured in specific ways to form an interface which consists of identical logic sets on both sides of the dynamic.

But surely the sensory apparatus must create the brain out of the environmental data field?
Carefully here...ye....NO! ..
.
The two share the logic frames for sure, or no information could be shared, but they evolve together..
The data field itself is conceptual..a projection to advance the power of mind...
(mind is all there is, Dirk, and a logic to everything, that's the base..)

The fitment program of chemistry and electrical impulses can create thought patterns, but thought patterns are NOT chemistry, they are ideas, and the ideas have power above and beyond ..

For any Universe, anywhere, anytime, there must first be ideas..!

Dirk Visser
12-02-2016, 08:33 PM
Now, if it's a logic comonality between consciousness and substance , which is basically what we are saying..., then the structure itself..., the logical schema...., the thing that makes it a unity...., the logic sets that fit together into a totality...., have to eventually reveal the topography of nature herself.

It's our job to discover and map that topography....we have access to it only from the standpoint that the human mind is attached to the universe, and that thought, as we understand it, is basic to the organization of anything we can observe and interpret. The logic in the way our thought is constructed is an identity with the organization that a mind benchmarks, as shown in the logical sets that make up totality...

In developing the logical sets then, we are looking to the pattern of adaption that has occurred in the human mind..

Dirk Visser
12-06-2016, 06:12 PM
In looking at the adaptive process then, and the idealized human psyche that results from this interplay out of deep time, we see first of all, the fact that there must be a structure to the stimula in which the human mind is immersed, that is, in the events themselves which contain the information to be collected and presented for interaction with the sentient organism..

These events are structured events, they have been designed in complimentary logic sets to those that allow thought, and are looking to interact with consciousness. The content of the event itself is crafted to fit the structure of the mind that is to observe and interpret it.

The entire process has evolved together, one cannot exist without the other. There cannot be the fitment in the substance side of the Universe that matches the processes in the mind, unless the two go together..unless this is so, there is no guarantee that action or thought on either side would be exchangable or effective.. Experience, interpretation, and learning would not be assured, intelligence could not be built..

As the evolutionary process proceeds, the fitment program that has evolved on the substantial side, and the conceptual organizational model that is mentality mapping it, form a powerful mind-matter consortium that has creative abilities to effect change in both worlds...

This is the basis of science and technology, but even more importantly now, at this present-day stage of the human story, would be the ability to see the implications of success in such poorly developed realms as empathy, planetary stewardship, unselfishness, and true ethical progress...

Primitive thinkers, by any comprehensive measure, just getting started, it turns out.

Dirk Visser
12-08-2016, 07:17 PM
To sharpen the application of this process that builds intelligence and creativity, we are presently limited to earth generated intelligence, and what is observable from our limited vantage point, but even at this early stage, that represents a rich readout of what it might mean to be human. What the Universe might be after in this tremendous output of energy and time, has to be the universal question for us to consider... beyond struggle, and beyond the "survival game" that got us to the post-genetic levels of today...

We now have to break the human psyche down and lay it out for plain view.

How it is we are formed.

How we grow.

...And what the limitations are on "Earth Consciousness".

Where we begin and where we stop..

Can we extrapolate the implications of the evidence?

In doing this we must reference all of the psychologies and all of their insights and try to craft a composite:
The gestalt point of view,
The Fruedian point of view
Jung's point of view,
...all the divergences, all the way down....
-- Skinner's point of view, Skinner very clearly isolates his conceptions to the substantial side, but he's talking truth..what he never saw was that stimulus and response form a composite reaction and neither one makes sense without the other...that's why his view of it has fallen into disrepair..

In forming a composite then, of all our general psychologies, we have to enter it from a different route than has previously been attempted..
Our approach to it is to relate the physiology and psychology of the human interaction with events in the universe to the fundamental logic by which the existence itself was designed. The action in our interface relates precisely to action in the observable.
How one side is organized to produce the other and what the underlying intent is in the logics that enforce a unity

We can know what it means to be human because we live in a logic commonality of substance and knowing..

Dirk Visser
12-08-2016, 07:24 PM
To sharpen the application of this process that builds intelligence and creativity, we are presently limited to earth generated intelligence, and what is observable from our limited vantage point, but even at this early stage that represents a rich readout of what it might mean to be human. What the Universe might be after in this tremendous output of energy and time, has to be the universal question for us to consider... beyond struggle, and beyondcthe "survival game" that got us to the post-genetic levels of today...

We now have to break the human psyche down and lay it out for plain view.

How it is we are formed.

How we grow.

...And what the limitations are on "Earth Consciousness".

Where we begin and where we stop..

Can we extrapolate the implications of the evidence?

In doing this we must reference all of the psychologies and all of their insights and try to craft a composite:
The gestalt point of view,
The Fruedian point of view
Jung's point of view,
...all the divergences, all the way down....
-- Skinner's point of view, Skinner very clearly isolates his conceptions to the substantial side, but he's talking truth..what he never saw was that stimulus and response form a composite reaction and neither one makes sense without the other...that's why his view of it has fallen into disrepair..

In forming a composite then, of all our general psychologies, we have to enter it from a different route than has previously been attempted..
Our approach to it is to relate the physiology and psychology of the human interaction with events in the universe to the fundamental logic by which the existence itself was designed. The action in our interface relates precisely to action in the observable.
How one side is organized to produce the other and what the underlying intent is in the logics that enforce a unity

We can know what it means to be human because we live in a logic commonality...

CWSmith
12-08-2016, 07:30 PM
I'm starting to regret high band width connectivity.

Dirk Visser
12-09-2016, 01:27 AM
Thanks for that affirmation of sorts, connectivity is after all the groundstuff which powers totality, mental or physical...

As an "old guy" myself, one to another, I am fascinated at our preoccupation with events to the virtual exclusion of curiosity about underlying universals which are the true structure and drivers of the scene out here...

Call it age- appropriate curiosity, but high speed motion and similar sensation based experience has lost it's allure for me. Politics, games, and competitive sports have likewise leave me cold now...maybe I just saw too much..

Why we are here, what these kinds of experiences might actually be for though?
Now I am back on board!

I find life's main challenge in lifting up a corner of "The Event", peeling it back a little, and attempting to give an interpretation that points in the direction of enlightenment, based on scientific observation.

Peerie Maa
12-09-2016, 07:01 AM
Why we are here, what these kinds of experiences might actually be for though?


Cogito ergo sum - Descartes

Everybody's got to be somewhere! - Eccles

PatCassidy
12-09-2016, 07:15 AM
I have this vision of a sailor sitting on his boat and looking at how his mooring lines are secured to the pier. He is perplexed wondering how they will release themselves. After hours of nothing happening he packs up and goes ashore saying to himself "another great day of sailing."

Peerie Maa
12-09-2016, 08:10 AM
Not so much why we are here, but a clue as to how.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38226810

Humans may in part owe their big brains to a DNA "typo" in their genetic code, research suggests.
The mutation was also present in our evolutionary "cousins" - the Neanderthals and Denisovans.
However, it is not found in humans' closest living relatives, the chimpanzees.
As early humans evolved, they developed larger and more complex brains, which can process and store a lot of information.
Last year, scientists pinpointed a human gene that they think was behind the expansion of a key brain region known as the neocortex.
They believe the gene arose about five or six million years ago, after the human line had split off from chimpanzees.

Dirk Visser
12-09-2016, 12:51 PM
I have this vision of a sailor sitting on his boat and looking at how his mooring lines are secured to the pier. He is perplexed wondering how they will release themselves. After hours of nothing happening he packs up and goes ashore saying to himself "another great day of sailing."
Pat ,
You nailed it!
I could really be happy in such a meditative contemplation...
(...and I might even find myself besotted enough some days to call it "sailing" ! )

amish rob
12-09-2016, 12:56 PM
Hey! You guys leave Dirk alone.

He likes the sound of one Dirk flapping. :)

Peace to you on your journey, Dirk. I am already one. I see you all already. ;)

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
12-09-2016, 01:19 PM
Hey Beardless One , been awhile!
Yes, you too it seems have figured me out, it appears the monologue really is my first love...
In theory, it would be the dialouge, the One and the Other dynamic and all that...but in practice the selfish genetics still rule (rue?) the day and I remain comforted by my own profundities most!

"We'd lay our heads, on the seabed, No one there to tell us what to do..
...In an Octopus's garden with you!"

amish rob
12-09-2016, 01:29 PM
Dirk,
I enjoy reading your thought process, brother. I can only but learn from others what I can't experience myself.

Also, I have a small inkling of the mind. I have dived deep, as it were. I am reticent to broadcast my "knowledge", though, because I know how dumb I really am. I. Almost. Have. The. Straws...

I like to think of life as a roux, because it's more delicious.:)

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
12-09-2016, 02:09 PM
Indeed Rob,
The beauty and deliciousness of it all, is a lot of the meaning for sure..great honor to be able to appreciate it deeply....but also broadly..!
The broadening of the vision comes as the exploration traverses the territory...and it may be true : the more we "know", the more we don't "know" , things simply keep opening up and unfolding... Wisdom is really overrated and elusive...

....and incidentally, I should say it here, having gotten up to page 5, an investigation like this carries
risks. This vision has implications .

I console myself that the sharing of it is an ethical must do, but the ultimate cop-out I harbor is that I imagine myself writing to the mind after the holocaust..

Whew! Is that pathetic or what?

Dirk Visser
12-11-2016, 02:19 AM
Not so much why we are here, but a clue as to how.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38226810

Nick, appreciate the clue here...
But no real surprise is it? Now that we are here I mean, a paltry 6 million years later..
A typo in the DNA coding ? A random mutation?
C'mon fellas...
Are we forgetting that this is nature's tried and true method of advancing herself?

She is not concerned with free will at all, she could care less, if walking down the street, you decide to have a piece of apple pie or a hot dog...but when it comes to innovation, and minimizing that kind of distracting sea clutter , her radar is set to maximum sensitivity...

How can George Burns smoke 18 cigars a day, and live on a diet of pure alcohol , and survive in good health to the age of 92?
Those are the kinds of questions that drive the strategy of individuation...!

Magnifique , N'est pas?

Dirk Visser
12-12-2016, 12:07 PM
Say Rob ,
I noticed your revealing and masterfully self-deprecating post this morning over on the Vigo Mortenson movie trailer thread
(for Paul P's liberal friends).

It occurs to me that such honesty becomes the essence of the truth of any report or opinion.

Character is a lot of what is being built here, and courage..

I doubt it can be produced authentically any other way but than in a setup like this one which we live in here...

amish rob
12-12-2016, 12:40 PM
Dirk,

You are too kind.

My entire life has been lived to this refrain: You have so much potential.

Never potential for art, for beauty, for grace. Potential to make money.

I wasted my talent by not making someone else rich.

Ha!

My only worry in life is that all this beautiful stuff in my brain will be left behind when my mind leaves. That I won't ever be able to recall all the beauty I've experienced, all the pain.

I. That I. So foolish and selfish. :)

Peace,
Robert

Peerie Maa
12-12-2016, 12:54 PM
How can George Burns smoke 18 cigars a day, and live on a diet of pure alcohol , and survive in good health to the age of 92?

Luck, he inherited a tolerant set of genes.

Shang
12-12-2016, 01:17 PM
...Feel free to put me on "ignore"..!

Okay, Dirk, ignore it is.
I'll leave you with a few words by Alexander Pope:

A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
Fired at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
In fearless youth we tempt the heights of Arts ;
While from the bounded level of our mind
Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind,
But, more advanced, behold with strange surprise
New distant scenes of endless science rise !
So pleased at first the towering Alps we try,
Mount o’er the vales, and seem to tread the sky ;
The eternal snows appear already past,
And the first clouds and mountains seem the last ;
But those attained, we tremble to survey
The growing labours of the lengthened way ;
The increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,
Hill peep o’er hills, and Alps on Alps arise !

Dirk Visser
12-12-2016, 02:06 PM
Okay, Dirk, ignore it is.
I'll leave you with a few words by Alexander Pope:

A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
Fired at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
In fearless youth we tempt the heights of Arts ;
While from the bounded level of our mind
Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind,
But, more advanced, behold with strange surprise
New distant scenes of endless science rise !
So pleased at first the towering Alps we try,
Mount o’er the vales, and seem to tread the sky ;
The eternal snows appear already past,
And the first clouds and mountains seem the last ;
But those attained, we tremble to survey
The growing labours of the lengthened way ;
The increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,
Hill peep o’er hills, and Alps on Alps arise !

Thank you Mr. Shang!,
I will warmly contemplate Pope's teaser for awhile...

In the meantime if they ever really corner you with obfuscation and distracting BS-, remember
these three little words it appears Alexander Pope is also struggling to put a good face on:

"Substance becoming Knowing"

Dirk Visser
12-12-2016, 02:23 PM
Luck, he inherited a tolerant set of genes.
Ah..Nick,
That was one beautiful outside three pointer,... not at the buzzer though, there's a lot more of this game to go...not even halftime by my reckoning...?

Dirk Visser
12-14-2016, 06:59 PM
(ref.Post# 209)

Rob , thanks for this valuable lead, and the vulnerability exposure that was an underlining validation.
...makes a refreshing change from the macho posturing and. posing that a group of men can often fall into, even this experienced and grounded bunch of seasoned boatmen and mariners..

I believe the questions you raise in this entry are worthy of at least a sub-chapter in the book.

The cultural side is in ascendency now for at least 10,000 years, and has been developing powers at warp speed now in the past 300. It's such a different world now that the classics hardly form a relevant guide. Even factual evidence itself is coming under serious attack...

In light of this we need to pull in close for a definitive shot of the idealized human himself..the establishing environment can be filled in later ..

"It is possible to know our place in the World, and what it means to be Human.."

The puzzle that we need to take up in this chapter of the book, to address the kinds of questions you have raised,is: what is the human?

What does it actually mean to be a human being?
How do we function?
How were we formed?
What are our capabilities and limitations?
How are we structured to be creative, and receive information from nature?
.....
How are we structured to cooperate together in culture ?

amish rob
12-14-2016, 07:21 PM
Dirk,

Human?

Well, I will say this. Our limitations are all belief. Not belief in some thing. Belief in the deed. No real reason we can't walk on water, eh? Why not influence the covalent bonds around us? It's all the same bundles of pluses and minuses, yes? The principle evinced by Qi Gong. Ever see a monk break a piece of steel on another monk's leg?

Mind.

The trick to doing something impossible is to believe it possible. The mind controls all, but is the mind in our brain, our fascia, as I believe more and more, or is it the spark that drives us?

Check out interviews with Rodney Mullen, the guy who basically invented all the flipping tricks on a skateboard. His mind is deep.

Our limitations are all in our minds. I know this from ultra endurance. After 6 hours of maximum exertion, your body says it wants to quit. So you do. But then, moments later, you are fine, able to move. Did your body heal? No. Your mind reset.

What is it? Do we share it? You got me.

I'm not so sure we are as advanced as we imagine.

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
12-15-2016, 01:12 PM
Hey Rob,
Rodney Mullen?, Never heard of him... Lucky me now!,.... have the whole story to enjoy and learn from...mathematician too? oh yeah!

This will be one exceptional cool-cat, I can already tell from the Wikipedia intro..

Here's a nugget from the board:

"....it's not what you do, it's what makes you do what you do, ....is the thing that has to be protected and nurtured. ..
As long as that's there, intact, you can do anything...!"

amish rob
12-15-2016, 01:52 PM
Hey Rob,
Rodney Mullen?, Never heard of him... Lucky me now!,.... have the whole story to enjoy and learn from...mathematician too? oh yeah!

This will be one exceptional cool-cat, I can already tell from the Wikipedia intro..

Here's a nugget from the board:

"....it's not what you do, it's what makes you do what you do, ....is the thing that has to be protected and nurtured. ..
As long as that's there, intact, you can do anything...!"
Oh, yes. I think its actually Dr. Mullen. He is the epitome of genius. Slightly mad, perhaps?:)

What makes you do what you do? Indeed...

Perhaps there is no choice in what we do, we simply follow an if/then subroutine?

I wonder more about what I am, and where I am. I think the part we overlook about the brain is the brain is simply the processor, but the mind is rooted in the nervous system, in the fascia of our bodies.
Our mind is more grounded in us than our brains.

Which is why animals with smaller brains can have complex minds...

Maybe. But still, Mullen espouses a sort of wholistic, unified approach to life I endorse.

Check out the Bones Brigade documentary Stacy Peralta made. There are some parts in there that discuss the mental state required to accomplish impossible feats. And, it's pretty cool. Both of my sons also love skateboarding.;)

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
12-15-2016, 02:57 PM
Fascinating.. Currently working the Dr. Mullen lead... Whew! Get back to you with a few questions , soon ..

You, yourself are taking shape as a fellow student grasshopper , with your own unique appreciation of the discipline. wax on, wax off!

Yes, the mind/brain/body problem....and how you tied it to the primitive, but powerful logic of the syllogism: If this, then that.

...maybe we should ask Ishmael's help, I've got a feeling he might have been through a few of these waypoints in his short life..

Movie Time:
"Arrival", nice fresh vantage point on Time, and the power of linguistics,,,

amish rob
12-15-2016, 03:11 PM
Dirk,

Give me that pebble!:d Seriously, I always wanted those tiger and dragon brands.

Lately I've been thinking so much about how everything is simply energy. The one absolute, yes? There is a finite amount of energy in the universe, as we understand it, yes?

Everything is energy in various forms, so everything is really the same thing, right?

Do we think, or are our bodies simply antennae to allow us to tune in?

Whew. I'm out of energy...

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
12-20-2016, 08:10 PM
As near as I can tell, true on all counts;..but not to forget our unique individuated characters, both mind and body..

Rodney Mullen is an exquisite example... I was enjoying the words of his 2013 TED talk , the self- effacing zenlike manner that his admirers enjoy, but then I saw the dancing talent showcased under the lights, on the board...and most of all, his advanced and constructive response to using his fame.

An unusual talent for tranferance of the physical ability of youth , to the mental power of wisdom and experience, done gracefully.

And while we are looking at a bootstrap world like this, give nature her due for using time to embed redundancy into all the logics of strategy she is using in enabling our advancement..!

Dirk Visser
01-19-2017, 07:56 AM
A new tack for a freshening breeze....

"Imagination was given man to compensate him for what he is not.
A sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is.

Anonymous

Dirk Visser
01-20-2017, 01:41 AM
"You grow up the day you have the first real good laugh-----at yourself..!

-Ethel Barrymore

Dirk Visser
01-21-2017, 06:43 PM
"Be soft, do not let the world make you hard.
Do not let pain make you hate, do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness...

Take pride that even though the rest of the world may disagree,
you still believe it to be a sublime and beautiful place.

-- Kurt Vonnegut

amish rob
01-21-2017, 07:30 PM
"Be soft, do not let the world make you hard.
Do not let pain make you hate, do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness...

Take pride that even though the rest of the world may disagree,
you still believe it to be a sublime and beautiful place.

-- Kurt Vonnegut
The man taught me how to laugh. How to really laugh.
Would I could assemble words as he did.

Peace,
Emperor For Life (Self-Declared)

Dirk Visser
01-26-2017, 02:12 PM
Yes, esteemed brotm,
(excellent job on that by the way, this month, and looking forward to getting rid of term limits for you!)

From Wiki:

"Like Mark Twain, Mr. Vonnegut used humor to tackle the basic questions of human existence:
Why are we in this world?
Is there a presiding figure to make sense of all this, a god who in the end, despite making people suffer, wishes them well?"

---Dinita Smith
The New York Times, 2007

amish rob
01-26-2017, 02:29 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/a3/6d/6b/a36d6ba4980a31f65ae31407c1de8a43.jpg
And, me. In a nutshell.

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
01-27-2017, 01:59 PM
"Since the beginning of time each generation has fought nature. Now in the span of a single generation, we must turn and become the protector of nature."

--Jacques Cousteau

Dirk Visser
01-30-2017, 02:24 AM
"There is a world of difference between being outward bound by choice,
and homeward bound by necessity..

R. T. McMullen. "Down Channel"

Dirk Visser
01-30-2017, 09:59 PM
"The sail, the play of its pulse so like our own lives:
so thin and yet so full of life,
so noiseless when it labors hardest,
so noisy and impatient when least effective.."

---Henry David Thoreau

Ted Hoppe
01-30-2017, 11:28 PM
When we believed in the Vengeful God.

S’io credesse che mia risposta fosse
A persona che mai tornasse al mondo,
Questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse.
Ma perciocche giammai di questo fondo
Non torno vivo alcun, s’i’odo il vero,
Senza tema d’infamia ti rispondo.
--- Dante

We now believe we are God.

It is all mine and that is enough.
--- Anonymous

Dirk Visser
02-01-2017, 12:26 AM
Greetings Ted,
I like the Dante..and do find it appropriate to our ongoing trials.

We have indeed cracked "God's" creative codes..!

But where is the experience and vision to know how to apply that power for the advancement of enlightenment?
Here we are immature in the extreme...as our current situation demonstrates in spades ..

Possibly better I return to poetry and metaphor..an open-ended and hopeful arena.?


"Picture a tree in a storm. At the top of the tree, the small branches and leaves are swaying violently in the wind. The tree looks vulnerable, quite fragile - it seems it can break at anytime ...

But if you look at the trunk, you will see that the tree is solid; and if you look down to its root structure, you will know that the tree is deeply and firmly rooted in the soil.

The tree is quite strong. It can resist the storm."

--- Thich Nhat Hanh

Dirk Visser
02-02-2017, 11:12 AM
"Twas on the shores that round our coast
From Deal to Roundgate span,
That I found alone, on a piece of stone,
An elderly naval man. . . .

His hair was weedy, his beard was long,
And weedy and long was he;
And I heard this wight on the shore recite,
In a singular minor key. . . .

O, I am a cook and a captain bold,
And the mate of the Nancy brig,
And a bo'sun tight, and a midshipmite,
And the crew of the captain's gig."

---W.S. Gilbert, from "The Yarn of the Nancy Bell"

..."are you being silly, Dirk?"......."Yeah, I am being silly", I say...

Ted Hoppe
02-02-2017, 12:44 PM
Sometimes our first books tell us everything about ourselves.

"No, not one little song," replied the Rat firmly, though his heart bled as he noticed the trembling lip of the poor disappointed Toad. "It's no good, Toady; you know well that your songs are all conceit and boasting and vanity; and your speeches are all self-praise and - and - well, and gross exaggeration and - and - "
"And gas," put in the Badger, in his common way.
All the animals cheered when he entered, and crowded round to congratulate him and say nice things about his courage, and his cleverness, and his fighting qualities; but Toad only smiled faintly, and murmured, "Not at all!" Or, sometimes, for a change, "On the contrary!"
The Wind in the Willows - Ch. 12.

Dirk Visser
02-09-2017, 02:50 PM
Good point,Ted..
Mr. Toad is a fitting character for us to ponder...
The story ends on a hopeful note too.. Do you remember how Ratty and Mole and Badger use the secret tunnel into Toad Hall and drive out the weasels who have taken it over?
Toad is reformed, and thanks his friends of their patience and enduring love for him though all their trials..

*********

"What day is it, asked Pooh?
It's Today, squeaked PIglet !
My favorite day, said Pooh.

Dirk Visser
02-23-2017, 06:00 PM
No evil, only institutionalized misapprehension dept:



"There is some soul of goodness in things evil, would men observingly distill it out.

----William Shakespeare

Dirk Visser
02-26-2017, 12:27 AM
Birth of compassion dept:

"An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity."

----Martin Lither King Jr.

and...

"When we quit thinking primarily about ourselves and our own self-preservation, we undergo a truly heroic transformation of consciousness."

----Joseph Campbell

amish rob
02-26-2017, 11:56 AM
No evil, only institutionalized misapprehension dept:



"There is some soul of goodness in things evil, would men observingly distill it out.

----William Shakespeare
Want to portray a stellar Iago?
Play him like a hero.

Peace,
Robert

Dirk Visser
02-27-2017, 01:06 AM
Hi Rob,
Very nice job as bilge rat of the month, you made non-threatening and positive and inspiring leadership look easy!
Stellar Lago?... I am clueless...

Universals dept:
"The best way to know God is to love many things."
----Vincent van Gogh

amish rob
02-27-2017, 01:20 AM
Dirk,
Thank you.

Iago. From Othello. You mentioned The Bard. Best piece of acting advice I ever heard. Never play a villain as a villain. To portray a wonderful Iago, play him as a hero, a guy trying to do what he feels is right.


Peace,
Robert

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
03-04-2017, 12:42 PM
Aaaa, whatwillittake ta get ya into this dis beauty discussion today???

"There was another couple in here an hour ago considering this thread, they had to go home and <fill in the blank> but they said they'd be back soon... "

Dirk Visser
03-04-2017, 08:33 PM
Hi, THAT Bob!
I've wondered about Paulf's question since he brought it up those several months ago...
The thread launch was a bit rocky, as you undoubtably can read..
I figured it was old bilge culture from before my time, some kind of inside joke unclaimed baggage ...

The irony is that "dis beauty discussion" is the real goal and purpose of everything that is happening here with humans and nature, even technology and culture.

That Howard RIce has eyes brimming with tears, and wants to continue his expedition if possible, is my exhibit "A".

There is Truth at the core of Beauty;
seductive, incremental, dangerous, and deeply satisfying.

The Artist
The Healer
The Warrior
The Priest

*********

And the couple that were in here earlier?
Don't worry, old friends of mine, It will be my pleasure to introduce them to you, they often stop by but rarely post....know the type?

Dirk Visser
03-10-2017, 04:20 PM
"The artist is the person who invents the means to bridge between biological inheritance and the environments created by technological innovation."

----Marshall McLuhan

Dirk Visser
03-16-2017, 10:53 PM
The teacher held up a drinking glass and said, " You see this goblet? For me this glass is already

broken. I enjoy it. I drink out of it. It holds liquids admirably, sometimes even reflecting the sun in

beautiful patterns. If I should tap it, it has a lovely ring to it. But when I put this glass on a shelf and

the wind knocks it over, or my elbow brushes it off the table and it falls to the ground and shatters, I

say 'of course'. When I understand this glass is already broken, every moment with it is precious."

----Gabriel Heller

Dirk Visser
03-17-2017, 05:25 PM
"The sails were a pinprick of white against the expansive gulf, and though the ebbing tide jostled her about, every foot to the good put me closer to the salvation of the St. John River where at last I'd escape the roiling seas, great tides, dungeons of fog and inhospitable shores..

Taking another look at the ' Canadian Sailing Directions, Bay of Fundy', my eye fell to a paragraph I'd highlighted: ' Owing to the strong tidal streams, the prevalence of fog and the difficulty of obtaining anchorage due to the depth of water, navigation calls for unremitting attention.' "

-----David Buckman, " Bucking the Tide " 2010

Dirk Visser
03-23-2017, 08:18 PM
"For a human character to reveal truly exceptional qualities, one must have the good fortune to be able to observe its performance over many years.

If this performance is devoid of all egoism, if its guiding motive is unparalleled generosity, if it is absolutely certain tat there is no thought of recompense and that, in addition it has left its visible mark upon the earth, then there can be no mistake.

About forty years ago I was taking a long trip on foot over mountain heights quite unknown to tourists, in that ancient region where the Alps thrust down into Provence.

All this, at the time I embarked upon my long walk through these deserted regions was barren and colorless land .

Nothing grew there but wild lavender..

----Jean Giono "The Man Who Planted Trees", 1954

Dirk Visser
03-24-2017, 01:21 PM
The wind finally returned: Joshua was soon sailing fast on a flat sea. Moitessier added sail after sail and eventually flew eight sails that totaled 1075 square feet. " I gaze at my boat from the top of the mainmast," he noted:

" Her strength, her beauty, her white sails well set on a well found boat. The foam, the wake the eleven porpoises on either side of the bowsprit. They are black and white porpoises, the most beautiful I know. They breathe on the fly, almost without breaking the surface, without wavering from the course, towing Joshua at nearly 8 knots by invisible bonds. Climbing down to fetch the Beaulieu (camera) is out of the question. I would lose everything, and what they give me is too precious; a lens would spoil it all. They leave without my touching them, but the bonds remain."

----Bernard Moitessier, "The Longest Race", Hal Roth (1983)

Dirk Visser
03-24-2017, 08:31 PM
At sea, Moitessier's mind and spirit were at ease and he was filled with a marvelous tranquility. After almost five months, his hair had grown to shoulder length, and with an enormous beard he took on the outward appearance of a Hindu swami. As his solitary sailing continued, he became so at one with the sea that he found it hard to imagine any other life..

When this gentle man thought of Europe and all the people and business and commerce and automobiles and industrial smoke and the noise of machinery and screaming children and bank payments and scheming attorneys and parades with booming bass drums and growling helicopters and shrieking jet airplanes, he rebelled. He just could not return to Europe.
" Man has been turned into a money making machine to satisfy false needs, false joys," he wrote.

He would not go back.


---- "The Longest Race " Hal Roth , 1983

Dirk Visser
03-27-2017, 02:15 PM
I saw Bernard Moitessier at the Mount Baker theater in 1980 when I was living in Bellingham Washington . He was a slight but still energetic graying older man narrating his 16 mm film of the Sunday Times round the world race of 1968. I remember him being especially passionate about the structural strength of welded steel, and its rugged superiority for long distance sailing service like he and Joshua had accomplished during his career. He also included handouts describing the reward he was offering to any French town's Mayor who would initiate a program of planting fruit trees on roadsides or other public lands, an inspiration he had come to during the 37,000 mile nonstop solo passage!Two years later I was snorkelling off the Cabo San Lucas beach among fiberglass wreckage where a hurricane had driven the famous Ketch ashore months before. Moitessier had gifted the boat to a young sailor who salvaged and restored her . The famous captain retired to Hawaii, continued to write and passed away peacefully some years later.

Dirk Visser
03-27-2017, 02:21 PM
I saw Bernard Moitessier at the Mount Baker theater in 1980 when I was living in Bellingham Washington . He was a slight but still energetic graying older man narrating his 16 mm film of the Sunday Times round the world race of 1968. I remember him being especially passionate about the structural strength of welded steel, and its rugged superiority for long distance sailing service like he and Joshua had accomplished during his career. He also included handouts describing the reward he was offering to any French town's Mayor who would initiate a program of planting fruit trees on roadsides or other public lands, an inspiration he had come to during the 37,000 mile nonstop solo passage!Two years later I was snorkelling off the Cabo San Lucas beach among fiberglass wreckage where a hurricane had driven the famous Ketch ashore months before. Moitessier had gifted the boat to a young sailor who salvaged and restored her . The famous captain retired to Hawaii, continued to write and passed away peacefully some years later.

Dirk Visser
03-27-2017, 03:04 PM
I saw Bernard Moitessier at the Mount Baker theater in 1980 when I was living in Bellingham Washington . He was a slight but still energetic graying older man narrating his 16 mm film of the Sunday Times round the world race of 1968. I remember him being especially passionate about the structural strength of welded steel, and its rugged superiority for long distance sailing service like he and Joshua had accomplished during his career. He also included handouts describing the reward he was offering to any French town's Mayor who would initiate a program of planting fruit trees on roadsides or other public lands, an inspiration he had come to during the 37,000 mile nonstop solo passage!Two years later I was snorkelling off the Cabo San Lucas beach among fiberglass wreckage where a hurricane had driven the famous Ketch ashore months before. Moitessier had gifted the boat to a young sailor who salvaged and restored her . The famous captain retired to Hawaii, continued to write and passed away peacefully some years later.