dowling jigs/choice and their use

[RodB]

I want to get some general information on joinery, specifically joinery using dowels. I am planning on learning M & T also but I have heard the doweling joinery is quite simple and versatile.
This is a subject area where I am totally ignorant. If one wants to perform joinery using dowels which doweling jig is best for general basic joinery? I have heard an old Stanley jig is fine but do they still make them? Is there any "how to" publications on this subject? I don't necessarily need a really expensive jig that does everything in the world, just a good solid jig system that is easy to use and will perform most bread and butter tasks.
I'm talking about joinery in small tables, cabinets, tool stands, etc... miscellaneous projects where quality doweling techniques would offer strong simple joints, and I assume one of the simplest techniques in joinery.
Comments/recommendations welcome.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Use of dowels pretty much ended when biscuit technology came along. Much faster and makes for stronger joints.

Steven

[Bob Smalser]

...doweling joinery is quite simple and versatile. http://home.comcast.net/~gldowd/doweljig2.jpg
http://cgi.ebay.c om/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13872&item=6143136745&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13872&item=6143136745&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

The old standby Stanley dowel jig is the cat's meow for starting holes for drifts. Use a bell-hanger bit less likely to wander than one with a lead screw or point and supplement by sighting from both sides using a helper as the hole deepens.

But other than bronze or galvanized drifts, pure dowel joinery was never a good choice for anything and is an especially bad choice for anything outdoors like a boat.

End grain simply isn't a glue joint and applying glue there at all is generally a waste of glue. In a rail to stile joint done solely with dowels or biscuits, that means the strength of the joint is wholly dependent on the strength of the biscuits or dowels and their glue joint.

The nature of wood movement is that all round stock moves from round to oval and back again every year seasonally.....leaving a wee tiny bit of good, tight, gluejoint contact at the height of the shrink cycle. All those round joints eventually break their glue joint, and the more seasonal movement, the quicker they do it.

Where dowels do have application is in reinforcing shallow M/T joints....rail to stile joints done in the panel groove. Dowels applied from the outside of those joints add a lot of sheer strength and the shallow M/T glue joint lasts longer.

I'm no fan of biscuits either for any outdoor use or in structural applications in freestanding furniture...but in the chipboard and plywood built-ins that don't get moved around they were designed for, they work just dandy. A piece of solid-wood furniture that gets bumped around during its life needs real joinery, as do most solid-wood builtins that move a lot seasonally in boats.

If you build so that the piece remains functional long after the glue has failed, your piece will last much longer than those done with gizmo joinery.

I can have the average teenager making satisfactory M/T joints within an hour...no reason you can't do them, too:

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb. php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010446 (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010446)

[ 01-05-2005, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Steve Schulz]

I've got this product from Lee Valley ( www.leevalley.com (http://www.leevalley.com)

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/drilling/25k6401s2.jpg

It's a pretty solidly built unit. They also sell compressed hardwood dowels which swell with water-based glue, so you get a bit of mechanical strength along with the glue in the joint.

I agree with Bob though - dowel joints don't belong in exterior applications, and they're an inherently flawed joint. The only advantage over biscuits is they can be used in narrower stock like face frames where the kerf from the biscuit cutter is too wide. But these days pocket screws are the quick 'n dirty joint of choice in face frames.

My dowel jig has been gathering dust over the past few years. Traditional M&T joints aren't that difficult, and give you a better joint.

Steve

[Hal Forsen]

For interior wood work, dowels are significantly stronger than biscuits. For exterior work m&t is the only way to go.
HF

[Jim Budde]

A timely post. I am about to glue up the bottom of a dory. Three pieces approx 10" wide, 14' long. My intention was to use dowels spaced periodicaly to keep wood from drifting until epoxy set. Reading this I wonder if I should ship lap (sp?) or pursue some other means of assuring a long lasting bond. (A sacraficial 1/4" plywood bottom will be added to the actual bottom)

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Jim Budde:
A timely post. I am about to glue up the bottom of a dory. Three pieces approx 10" wide, 14' long. My intention was to use dowels spaced periodicaly to keep wood from drifting until epoxy set. Reading this I wonder if I should ship lap (sp?) or pursue some other means of assuring a long lasting bond. (A sacraficial 1/4" plywood bottom will be added to the actual bottom)Solid wood bottom with a plywood false bottom atop?

Solid dory bottoms are traditionally cleated with planking seams, I believe....no glue, which would be more rigid and might cause a crack.

I prefer bronze or even brass drifts to wood dowels for most marine edge joining applications, even if I do glue the edge joint. Storebought dowels of Ramin and birch aren't rot resistant and I'd want to buy or make my own out of H Mahog, Black Walnut or something I was comfortable putting in the water. Brass rod at my local hardware jobber is cheaper than sending away for mahogany dowels unless I have some mahog or walnut rip waste handy to run through the dowel plate.

[ 01-05-2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Dave Fleming]

IMOOP, doweling has no place in Boat Building.
For interior joinerwork they are OK. More for alignment than glue joint reinforcement.

Although...in the early 1970's I did a 'side job' for the Sonoma Cheese Factory. I made several backed benches for outside the store on the Sonoma Plaza. I used mill purchased Redwood, Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue, generic hardwood dowels to glue up the main elements. Finish was Flecto Plastic Oil and Sealer.

Last time we were in the Bay Area we made a trip up to Sonoma. Those benches were still outside the Cheese Factory. Looking a bit worse for the wear but NO glue joint separation. That is approx. 31 years out in the weather 7/24.

I dunno if that is a testament to the glue, the doweling or my work or just plain luck.

Nonetheless there they be.

SWIMPAL took this photo just last month 02/05.

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL780/3097474/6292566/85578992.jpg

[ 03-04-2005, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Jim Budde]

Thanks Bob .. have several pieces of brass in shop that will do just nicely. The plywood will be on botom of boat .. the hull will then be covered with one layer of 6oz fiberglass.

[Jim Budde]

Imagine it's a testament to your work, Dave.

[Stiletto]

Those dowel jigs look good, the small amount of dowelling I did in the past was with the use of a horizontal borer which proved very accurate and simple to use.

[RodB]

Thanks guys, I guess I'll concentrate on M/T and the other joinery techniques and forget about doweling. I was under the impression doweling was not only simple but more useful. I really appreciate the input from all.

Up to now I have been able to get by using epoxy for my joining needs (fillets/taped). I did countersink stainless screws as insurance in my deck beams and of course my rubrail...
Next goal, master mortise and tenon joinery or just joinery in general.

Thanks,

RB

[Paul Scheuer]

Bob wrote -

a bell-hanger bit less likely to wander than one with a lead screw or point bell-hanger bit ? I guess there's another thing I missed.

Before I found father-in-law's Stanley set, I found a set of centers. Various sized shouldered cylinders with a protruding a point that perfectly locates the centers for matching holes in mating pieces. I had better luck with the centers than with the Stanley. Maybe I'd have had better luck with the right bit.

[JimJ]

Bob's link above was refused. Try

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010446&p=

Jim

[Bob Smalser]

I used one of those self-centering jigs like the Lee Valley one shown above and liked it a lot.

But when edge drilling for drifts in traditional boatbuilding, occasionally the hole needs to be off center like for the the rabbeted bedlogs shown below and that's where the old, high-precision Stanley shines.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6791366/85464400.jpg

[Paulyboy]

Biscuits can leave ghosts in the wood after several years. Dowels, like Bob said, need to be some type of rot resistant hardwood. Another alternative to M&T is the floating tenon system wherein you make two matching mortises and use a floating tenon to join the piece. A refinement of this idea is the Bead-lok (TM) kit. It's a modified doweling type jig, floating mortise concept all in one.

[RodB]

Go to this website for the ultimate in doweling tooling... Has anyone used this Dowelmax setup...they say their doweling system is very strong...see strength testing at website below
I think this setup costs $229....?

www.dowelmax.com/Basic_Concept.htm (http://www.dowelmax.com/Basic_Concept.htm)

dowelmax strenght tests (http://www.dowelmax.com/test_results.
htm)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid160/pc1f72cceba8a04af77497c86f18c97b3/f4ed7b20.jpg

FROM THEIR WEBSITE:

DOWELMAX is not a "gadget", it is a precision engineered professional hand tool, designed to aid all woodwork enthusiasts, whether beginner, advanced, semi-professional or master craftsman.* There are no limits for DOWELMAX. Any joint configuration can be achieved in mere minutes with no expensive machinery, no set up, no measuring, all you need is your drill and your DOWELMAX JIG.

THE DOWELMAX KIT INCLUDES 6 ACCESSORIES

Dowelmax has been selling Coast to Coast in Canada since October 2001 and by far our best seller, is the complete Dowelmax Kit, which includes the 6 accessories described below.* You can purchase the Dowelmax Kit by calling our Toll Free number @ 1-877-986-9400.* If you have already purchased the Dowelmax jig on its own, you can still purchase the accessories individually if desired.

Tested by Craftsmen with exceptional results.* Each Craftsman gave an enthusiastic rating and stated that this product is definitely a "workshop essential".

The basic concept was to design a device which would simplify the construction of wooden joints for furniture and other wood projects, which would be quick, easy, accurate and strong...

...The device is reversible, and has five drill guides equidistant and closely spaced, so that when the work pieces are inserted in the device, they are aligned to the same reference faces. Dowelmax is reversible, adjustable, it can be disassembled, rearranged, and spacers can be added to accommodate work pieces from 1" x 1" to 1" x 12" and from 2" x 2" to 2" x 12".

Dowelmax comes with an instruction booklet, diagrams and additional instructions for using the accessories described above. We also have instructions on video.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Here are some of their photos from the strength testing section on their website...THey say this is stronger than M&T???

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid160/p7be92ab0587253d0ddc515140c2aed4a/f4ed72b3.jpg

Anyone used this system...?

RB

[ 03-05-2005, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Billy Bones]

Well, about dowels...

Having been a woodworker for 25 years, a professional at it for fifteen; having built two boats and being in the process of building two more currently, I stand poised to buy a dowelling jig the moment the need arises.

The gadget in the photo looks like as good a choice as any.

I must add though that I have repaired MANY very ugly and catastrophic dowel joint failures. In most furniture cases the pieces are unsalvageable. In my book, for this reason dowels violate the furniture restorers maxim that every repair must itself repairable.

For other work I have become fond of making dowels out of little rolled up bits of fg cloth set in epoxy in holes which would be considered undersized for a wood dowel.

For alignment purposes, biscuits rock. When set in epoxy they are second in strength only to floating tennons. Dowels routinely test out at the bottom of the list.

[Billy Bones]

Oh my, the joint pictures just loaded while I was typing.

When is anyone going to make a joint like the one shown? Those are cases for scarf joints.

Fine woodworking did a story a few years ago comparing joint strength in USEFUL edge-to-end joints such as one would use in door making. They tested all blanks to failure. Top rated was floating tennon, close second were biscuits.

The ease of use, low profile and CHEAP nature of biscuits makes them the clear winner in my book.

[Jack Heinlen]

What Billy said. I worked wood for a living for fifteen years, and never used a dowel, NEVER. Compared to biscuits they are clumbsy. Any edge gluing, boat or furniture, doesn't need anything, and a butt joint...well, you get the picture.

[generic]

I thought the idea behind buscuits was that they were made from compressed "stuff" and to work as intended they required a water based glue to expand and tighten them in the slot.

Unless you are devotee of the Norm Abrahms school of wood working (muli-million dollar laser guided heat seeking chopsaws to compensate for your lack of ability.). Avoid coughing up for a buscuit jointer, make your own floating tenons from plywood strips and cut the slot on your table saw.

Traditional joinery evolved from a time when glue was made from critters hoofs, so each joint themselves had to have structural integrity and not rely on the glue to hold them together. Personally I would advocate learning the "old" stuff before going to school with Norm.
Not to put anyone off, but the perfect mortise and tenon is probably harder to achieve than anything else, way more than the mighty dovetail.

[ 03-06-2005, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: generic ]

[Bob Smalser]

Not to put anyone off, but the perfect mortise and tenon is probably harder to achieve than anything else, way more than the mighty dovetail. The good news is that they don't have to be perfect - even sloppy M/T joints are light years ahead of gizmo joinery in strength combined with longevity and repairability.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70922238.jpg

http://woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010449&p=

I can have teenagers cutting acceptable M/T joints in a couple hours of training....not days, weeks or months.

Have a sloppy M/T? Drawbore it (and shim it with veneer if really loose) and it'll last forever.

Any round tenon like a dowel shrinks to an oval seasonally and breaks all but a fraction of the glue line....with the remainder soon to follow when stress is applied during the dry season, when most chairs and dowel joints like to come apart.

Dowels, biscuits, pocket holes and drywall screws, stepped-hole dowels....all those gizmo's have one and only one application - house built-ins that'll never get moved around. They are fast, and as most built-ins get torn out and replaced eventually, quality joinery doesn't matter much. Finish carpenter work.

The problems come when these finish carpenter techniques are applied to freestanding pieces for the home and built-ins subject to vibration and racking/torsional stresses like in a wood boat....

...combine all that with an unrepairable glue like Titebond, and you're just doing expensive preparation and storage of the next generation's fireplace kindling.

[ 03-06-2005, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Billy Bones]

Biscuits always bring out the worst in us, LOL!

Where's my 'old fart' smiley when I need it!

Found it!

http://www.rkstarr.com/gifs/spudnikconfounded.gif

I agree to some extent with Bob but not completely. For example, titebond is perfectly easily repairable.

Secondly, all joint types have their strengths and weaknesses. So much of these discussions involves outside factors which contribute to the success or failure of the system under discussion, yet are never mentioned.

Finally, the question originally posed was about joint systems for..."miscellaneous projects where quality doweling techniques would offer strong simple joints, and I assume one of the simplest techniques in joinery." To this end I suggest that the mark of a quality and solvent craftsman is his or her knowledge of the requirements of a Steinway and of a picnic table without confusing the two.

As an aside, I note that most of the detractors of biscuits have never used them. They are not a panacea but they definitely have their uses and offer higher strength and durability qualities than many 'old school' techniques.

[Bob Smalser]

I agree to some extent with Bob but not completely. For example, titebond is perfectly easily repairable. Sure it is.

Pare it all back to fresh wood uncontaminated by white or yellow glue, let in Dutchmen with epoxy, recut the joint and glue it with the resin or hide glue you shoulda used in the first place. ;)

If you are gonna say that a heat gun will soften it enough for the two original surfaces to rebond, then I'd recommend trying that on scrap and testing the resulting glue joint for strength. It don't cut the mustard either strength or longevity wise.

[generic]

Bob, I wasn't really implying that it would take weeks to learn how to make an acceptable version of this most simple of joints. Square peg, square hole, it's not hard to grasp.
There is, however, a certain zenyness to it when you move past the "that'll do" phase. If you can hand cut a mortise and tenon that will hold together for two hundred years with only a wipe of horses hoof as glue, then my friend you have truly achieved something. Far more than with the thing that most people think is challenging, the dovetail.
Like those that advocate lofting every boat you build, for a greater understanding of the vessel.
So, I believe, everyone that makes a wood joint should learn to do it entirely by hand before running out and spending hundreds of dollars on the machinery that will "do it for you". Your understanding of how it's all supposed to work is that much greater.

Embrace your inner zen woodworker, the journey's worth it.. smile.gif

[Jack Heinlen]

I'm almost always chastened by Bob's skill and breadth.

I learned more than a thing or two from his thread on mortises.

It's funny, as in odd, but I learned hand dovetailing, and never learned hand mortising. There was alway a machine to do it!

Cutting simple threw dovetails is pretty easy. Lovely and elegant. If you have the brain to lay them out accurately, and have a sharp chisel or two, and a decent saw, they are pretty easy. Easy to fix when a slice goes astray too. I dare say much easier than chopping a good female part of a blind or threw mortise by hand.

Back to the original question. I don't see dowels as a good solution to anything.

[Billy Bones]

Something wrong with acetone?

Yeah sure I got my little pot of hide glue, a whole HEAP of rabbit skin glue, and I bet I use mine more often than just about anybody else on this board, but there's a time and a place for everything.

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Billy Bones:
Something wrong with acetone?

If you can make Gold out of Manure (Titebond) with acetone, I'm always interested, Billy. You've probably fixed more fine old beds with housewife repairs that I have. ;)

But will it really get it out of all the pores it needs to for a lasting joint?


Originally posted by generic:
....There is, however, a certain zaniness to it when you move past the "that'll do" phase. If you can hand cut a mortise and tenon that will hold together for two hundred years with only a wipe of horses hoof as glue, then my friend you have truly achieved something. Most commercial woodworkers stopped doing the bulk of their work with hand tools before and after WWII. Boatbuilders were the exception, but with the proliferation of glass beginning in the '50's threw all of my folk's crony's long out of business by 1970....and a serious gap developed in both commercial hand tool and commercial joinery lore. I'm not talking hobbyists here....hobbyists back then used to learn from the pro's, and today that is largely reversed as it concerns hand tools.

Folks...mostly hobbyists better educated than the adults I grew up with...began trying to fill that gap during The Great Craft Revival of the '60's and '70's....but few of the revivalists were ever trained by or even worked along side a multi-generation tradesman who derived the bulk of his living from hand tools. As a consequence, there is a lot of poor information out there shilled daily by well-meaning folks who simply don't know any better.

Like anybody else, the more I learn the less I realize I know...but in this day when Joe Average Woodworker needs a 600-dollar Tormek to do basic sharpening, Joe can't even comprehend that the sharpening he believes is so difficult was often done in commercial family shops by 12-year-olds...it was considered that simple...as was chopping a mortise or a rabbet, for that matter.

He also can't comprehend that the right 70-year-old using just three or four machine tools and a shockingly-small chest of hand tools could outproduce Norm-Delta Enterprises any day of the week in many jobs. Those old guys looked like they were working at a slow, relaxed pace...but the output at day's end would astound many today.

It ain't that any of this is any great accomplishment....it ain't...it's just that few today have enjoyed the proper coach looking over your shoulder.

[ 03-06-2005, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Dave Fleming]

Well Said Mr. S. smile.gif

[generic]

That was zeny not zany.

The guy that trained me was trained by Edward Baly, so I guess I have some claim to that tradition of a workshop full of hand tools. Everyones first task when they enter the workshop is to build a work bench from 4" Sapelle and Iroko (sp?). No power tools. Hand saws, planes and chisels only. Believe me, you appreciate a good jointer after that.

RodBs question was about building small cabinets and tool stands etc. using dowel joints.
I think he would be better served teaching himself, or being taught, traditional techniques. And then making an informed decision on what machinery and/or commercially available jigs he wants to spend his money on.

The guy that knows how to build a Steinway, can knock out a picnic table in a minute. The picnic table builder will never make a piano.

(edited much later because my wife was harrassing me, we had to go to dinner with friends. )

The workshop that I trained in www.chrisfaulkner.co.uk (http://www.chrisfaulkner.co.uk) has a very definite structure, all fine work is done between 8am and @12pm, after a goodly lunch, to the end of the day, you prepare material for the next days work. Nobody works overtime.
Who hasn't worked late into the night only to find out ten hours later that what you thought at the time was great turns out to be the biggest piece of sh!t you've ever seen.

To suggest that truly great cabinetmaking or boatbuilding is not a state of mind, but merely a function, I think, is to miss the point.

[ 03-06-2005, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: generic ]

[BrianR]

I've used the Miller Dowel System for a number of applications, and I can't say enough about 'em. Check it out:

http://www.millerdowel.com/

Good luck.

[Bob Smalser]

To suggest that truly great cabinetmaking or boatbuilding is not a state of mind, but merely a function, I think, is to miss the point. Ah.....Zen, then. Pure Krenov.

Fine work, but I've always felt the approach of high-end artists a bit elitist, intimidating newbies who need more "this is how the wood will behave in this application" and "pound Part A into Part B".

My folks were more of the Frid mold...too busy putting food on the table to contemplate their navels over the wonders of it all.

You can get there from here using either approach.

[John Hastie]

Thought I would add two cents here...

All of you are correct. However, each piece of work requires a moment of thought.

Biscuits are good for some things. Dowels also.

Glueing is something I want to add upon...

I had to repair a dining table chair. In the old days, a chair seat was often made of elm as it has no straight grain to split. It just runs wild and crazy.

Then, as chairs got mass produced, they had to join up boards to make the chair seat. I had to repair one and the joint split on the butt joint. It did so primarily because the glue faileddue to the finish wearing out. I chose to repair the seam by cleaning off the old glue entirely. I then applied two part Resorcinol glue after letting it set up (very important). If you glue too quickly, you lose most of the glue squeezed out of the joint. This glue really is very waterproof.

Well, a couple of years later, a 300 pount guest sat in this chair (as my heart stopped) and the chair broke. Much to my surprise, the glue joint held and the actual wood broke elsewhere. The lady was OK by the way. This was just a butt joint and this test (sic) showed how strong a joint can be without dowels or biscuits.

Any time you use a reversible glue, like Hide glue, it is the finish afterwards that prevents this type of glue from being attacked by moisture.

Bottom line, (1) choose the correct glue for the application; (2) let it set up before jointing and clamping to keep more of the glue in the joint, and (3) add a proper finish to seal the joint if the glue is water soluble.

John

[ 03-07-2005, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: John Hastie ]

[generic]

Bob, thats one of the reasons I don't work like that now. I like what I build to be used not fawned over.
But when you're training I don't think it hurts to ponder the mysteries of life, the universe and what you're trying to achieve.

[Paulyboy]

Again, Mr. Smalser makes a few important contributions for us to ponder. In a test several years ago that was done at the university level with no sponsors, no agenda, and no hidden exceptions, there were tests conducted on several joining methods: biscuit, double biscuit, a single row of dowels, a double row of dowels, a floating m&t and a traditional m &t, as well as a lap joint and a butt joint. These wer all tested using the same species of hardwood from the same area of the same tree, and used a modern day water resistant glue. Although the M&T joint was the strongest, and eventually caused a failure that fractured along the grain, the larger conclusion was that the glue itself held stronger than the grain of the wood also.
The use of a water based glue with biscuits is still necessary, but I wouldn't use it for anything other than furniture. I think structurally, M&T is the best way to go long term.
When I first got back into woodworking in my late 30's, I unwisely picked chair making as a first project. Then I stupidly chose softwood to practice with. Then, I realized that a softwood chair might not hold my 350 lb. girth, but since softwood was so cheap, I figured oh,heck, we'll see what happens. I decided to use pegged M&T joints for the chairs and theyheld up really well!

[Dave Fleming]

This thread is interesting.
Started on 1/5/05 about the relative merits of dowels and doweling jigs. I contributed my views vis a vis dowels in boat building and an example of doweling in some simple benches.

Now we have gone to the relative merits of one joining method vs another and what glue should be used.

Also varying views of general wood working philosophy.

My humble opinion is that M & T joints for structural members are my first choice.
Judicious use of dowels in some cabinet making situations is reasonable.
The alaphatic resin glues aka carpenters glue are not to be considered in exterior boat work. I would not use them for structural laminating either.

About the philosophical views on woodworking let me say this.

I began my apprenticeship in 1962. When I first reported to the yard I was taken for a helper or casual laborer by most shipwrights. It was not until the word got out that I was an actual apprentice did I get much attention. The learning was in the main on the job, with emperical bits of how this has worked or why not to use this type of timber for that purpose. We were all too busy working to support our families to pay much attention to aesthetics or purity of form.
Not to say that a pretty hull was not admired but, there was no time to sit and contemplate it.
It took independent study on my part and many an after hour gam with some shipwrights to gain a decent insight into the 'ART' of it.

I first saw an article on Krenov sometime in 1972 or 3 (?) and was impressed with his work. I had been a long time admirer of Shaker and Scandanavian design. His work reminded me of a fusion of the two along with a healthy dose of his own creativity.
Some time later I saw a notice that Krenov would be giving a weekend seminar at the Univ. of California at Santa Cruz. It was summer and the school term was over. The fee included use of the dorms and cafeteria plus the sport facilities. SWIMPAL did some phone work and found that we, as a family could go. I would attend the seminar and she and the boys would use the tennis courts and swimming pool and we all would eat at the cafeteria.
The entire experience was refreshing. So much so that soon after Krenov was going to teach a summer semester at the Oakland College of Arts and Crafts and we decided that I would attend.
Understand I had been working in the yards doing repairs and some new builds. Absolutely no interior joinerwork up to this time. I had made one large deckbox working at Stone Boatyard in Alameda using sloped dovetails for joints and a staved top. This was the sole piece of such work I had done! With much patience and good mentoring by Jack Erehorn I completed the box and Stone's did not loose too much money on it either. :rolleyes:

Moving along here, the summer with Krenov was an eyeopener, tons of hand cut dovetails and coopered cabinet doors and long discussions on wood and how to use it in fine woodworking.

I believe I can see each point of view here in regard to the philosophy of wood working.

Wood and its uses are important in good boatbuilding and fine woodworking.

Bad work, cheap materials, shoddy workmanship have no place in either.

Or so say I.

[Billy Bones]

Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
...The alaphatic resin glues aka carpenters glue are not to be considered in exterior boat work. I would not use them for structural laminating either....Amen on both points.

And to clarify my earlier self, I really like biscuits for some things but I do not feel they have a place in boatbuilding.

[Cosmo Lengro]

;)