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peb
06-27-2016, 10:16 AM
Perhaps we should discuss views, especially our European friends, on the purpose of the EU. I really would this thread be a civil discussion. I will start.

I certainly see the value of a common market. I will also admit, that free trade does not come without some loss of sovereignty, just look how the interstate commerce clause in the US constitution has been used to justify a huge expansion of federal powers. The trick is to keep this minimal and in check.

I see great danger in a common currency.

I see great value in a open border policy for member states' citizens for travel and work purposes. However, I do recognize the need for each country to maintain some sort of immigration control. Another difficult line to draw. But pretending these lines should not be drawn is going to lead to such things as Brexit.

Common security: Seems rather redundant with Nato IMO, and I think that a NATO like organization with expands across the Atlantic makes more sense.

Other thoughts?

TomF
06-27-2016, 10:34 AM
The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) was the parent, originating just after WW2, which eventually became the EU. Its founders intended to so fully intermesh the heavy industrial economies of France and Germany to make it unthinkably painful to ever go to war again. That is, economics were intentionally and self-consciously used as a preventative for continued episodic warfare, as had been the practice three times within the previous hundred years or so.

People disparage the notion that the EU is about preventing European wars, but in doing so they actually show their ignorance of the actual purposes and intentions of the founders. The fact that other elements have become prominent in the EU's programme and activities is obvious, but it all rested on the premise of a conscious choice to NOT go to war with each other periodically, using structural and macro-level economic interest as a check on nationalism. "Mutually assured destruction" might be argued as a more effective deterrent ... except that the utter horror of WW1 was not enough to deter WW2. In contrast, enmeshed economies have produced a more durable peace than Western Europe has ever seen.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-27-2016, 11:10 AM
The EU has been trying to remove non-tariff barriers to trade. That is what the Single Market is all about.People very often mistake the details of the Single Market project for attempts to regulate everything from the centre.

peb
06-27-2016, 11:11 AM
I certainly do not disparage the notion that the primary function was (and is) to prevent a European war between member countries.



It is a matter of how that can best be achieved.

Rum_Pirate
06-27-2016, 11:34 AM
As to a common currency :

http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/rogoff/files/why_not_a_global_currency.pdf


Why Not a Global Currency? By KENNETH ROGOFF*

Rum_Pirate
06-27-2016, 11:36 AM
Perhaps we should discuss views, especially our European friends, on the purpose of the EU. I really would this thread be a civil discussion. I will start.

I certainly see the value of a common market. I will also admit, that free trade does not come without some loss of sovereignty, just look how the interstate commerce clause in the US constitution has been used to justify a huge expansion of federal powers. The trick is to keep this minimal and in check.

I see great danger in a common currency.

I see great value in a open border policy for member states' citizens for travel and work purposes. However, I do recognize the need for each country to maintain some sort of immigration control. Another difficult line to draw. But pretending these lines should not be drawn is going to lead to such things as Brexit.

Common security: Seems rather redundant with Nato IMO, and I think that a NATO like organization with expands across the Atlantic makes more sense.

Other thoughts?


The purpose of the EU is (or was) to move to becoming a USE (United States of Europe)

SullivanB
06-27-2016, 11:39 AM
Whatever its original purpose, the present day function of the EU is to keep the masses within the neo-liberal prison benefiting the moneyed elite. The EU is about money and making sure those having most of it keep getting more. Consider this article, discussing the hysterical response of the so called liberals to BREXIT and its challenge to the neo-liberal prison the EU administers and enforces. The author is "spot on" in his condemnation of the so called liberals as they embrace the neo-liberal policies and practices the EU has come to stand for, implement and enforce.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/06/27/brexit-and-diseased-liberal-mind

Brexit and the Diseased Liberal Mind

by
Jonathan Cook (http://www.commondreams.org/author/jonathan-cook)


Here's a part of the text (You should read the entire article.):

The neoliberal prison

The Brexit vote is a huge challenge to the left to face facts. We want to believe we are free but the truth is that we have long been in a prison called neoliberalism. The Conservative and Labour parties are tied umbilically to this neoliberal order. The EU is one key institution in a transnational neoliberal club. Our economy is structured to enforce neoliberalism whoever ostensibly runs the country.

That is why the debate about Brexit was never about values or principles – it was about money. It still is. The Remainers are talking only about the threat to their pensions. The Brexiters are talking only about the role of immigrants in driving down wages. And there is good reason: because the EU is part of the walls of the economic prison that has been constructed all around us. Our lives are now only about money, as the gargantuan bail-outs of the too-big-to-fail banks should have shown us.

There is a key difference between the two sides. Most Remainers want to pretend that the prison does not exist because they still get privileges to visit the living areas. The Brexiters cannot forget it exists because they are never allowed to leave their small cells.

The left cannot call itself a left and keep whingeing about its lost privileges while denouncing those trapped inside their cells as “racists”. Change requires that we first recognise our situation – and then have the will to struggle for something better.

peb
06-27-2016, 01:08 PM
The purpose of the EU is (or was) to move to becoming a USE (United States of Europe)



To what end?

George Jung
06-27-2016, 01:23 PM
School me - what's the danger in a common currency?

sandtown
06-27-2016, 01:46 PM
About the only way Trump can win is for the Dems to stupidly cling to the neoliberal TPP.
(As their platform committee now is doing)

Globalization is Trump's biggest issue by far - and it was a big issue for Sanders too.

And the TPP is NOT about Free Trade - it is rather about corporate governance.

People get this, and they are mad.

Peerie Maa
06-27-2016, 04:31 PM
School me - what's the danger in a common currency?
The US of A has one, are all of the States doing as well as each other?

Peerie Maa
06-27-2016, 04:38 PM
Here is one purpose that the EU has taken to itself
Social Protection & Social InclusionThe European Commission supports and complements the Member States' policies in the fields of social inclusion and social protection.
The Europe 2020 strategy (http://ec.europa.eu/europe2020/index_en.htm) for smart, sustainable and inclusive growth sets targets (http://ec.europa.eu/europe2020/europe-2020-in-a-nutshell/targets/index_en.htm) to lift at least 20 million people out of poverty and social exclusion and to increase employment of the population aged 20-64 to 75%. The flagship initiatives (http://ec.europa.eu/europe2020/europe-2020-in-a-nutshell/flagship-initiatives/index_en.htm) of the Europe 2020 strategy, including the Platform against Poverty and Social Exclusion (http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=961&langId=en) and the Agenda for New Skills and Jobs (http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=958), support efforts to reach these targets.
Through its Social Investment Package (http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1044&langId=en), the Commission provides guidance to Member States to modernise their welfare systems towards social investment throughout life.
The package complements:


the Employment Package (http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1039&langId=en), which sets out the way forward for a job rich recovery,
the White Paper on Pensions (http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=89&newsId=1194&furtherNews=yes), presenting a strategy for adequate, sustainable and safe pensions,
the Youth Employment Package (http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=1036&newsId=1731&furtherNews=yes), which deals specifically with the situation of young people.

Read m,ore here: http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=750

Osborne Russell
06-27-2016, 04:44 PM
To what end?

Form a more perfect union, provide for the common defense, secure the blessings of peace to ourselves and our posterity, etc.

johnw
06-27-2016, 05:21 PM
School me - what's the danger in a common currency?

No difficulty at all, if you have the political institutions to make it work, which the EU does not.

Why does a common currency work for the United States, which is nearly as big as Europe? Because it is a good currency area, thanks in part to Alexander Hamilton and George Washington. More here (http://booksellersvsbestsellers.blogspot.com/2015/07/grexit-sinking-fund-act-of-1790-and.html).

Every year, Mississippi has a weak and unproductive economy, and every year, more wealthy and productive states pay more into the federal coffers than they get out, so that the feds can give Mississippi more money than they pay in, for example.

And when banks fail when one of Florida's periodic property bubbles pop, does Florida have to bail them out, the way Greece, Ireland, and Spain did? No, that function is federal.

In fact, a German banker asked what would happen if a crisis happened in one state and it expected the others to bail it out. He got reminded that this is pretty much what happened in the Savings & Loan crisis in the 1980s, when 75% of the money went to Texas, and it came from states like New York that weren't having a crisis.

Hugh Conway
06-27-2016, 05:34 PM
How many non-anglophone members are there? My sense is diminishingly few, so civilly, this sample will be decidedly skewed.