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Bill R
05-31-2016, 08:10 PM
[Since this is the Bilge, I need to preface this with the "I mean no disrespect and am not trolling" disclaimer]

With the recent observance of Memorial Day, I have a question about Confederate soldiers for the Really Smart People:

Which is correct?

1) They seceded prior to fighting against the Union, therefore they were not Americans when they fought in the war.

2) They failed in their quest for independence. Thus, they were Americans the whole time.

Can someone smarter than I am expound on this? And if this was math class, show your work.

L.W. Baxter
05-31-2016, 08:13 PM
I would say

3) We call it a Civil War because it was between citizens of the same country.

CWSmith
05-31-2016, 08:13 PM
Well, the north considered secession to be an illegal act, so I guess they remained in the union as far as Lincoln was concerned. However, he said, "They are our brothers again...", so maybe not?

Jimmy W
05-31-2016, 08:14 PM
They probably would have agreed with number 1 and not number 2.

Reynard38
05-31-2016, 08:17 PM
Y'all know this was 150 years ago right?

Osborne Russell
05-31-2016, 08:35 PM
No. 2 is correct.

For the umpteenth time, the states did not create the United States, the people did. If slaves are to be property, or brought to a new state, you agreed in advance to be bound by national law. That agreement is not unilaterally revocable. If you try it, it's you who is, you might say, trying to steal a part of the country for yourself. People in Massachusetts get to vote on whether slavery is going to be legal in Virginia. That was the deal.

Osborne Russell
05-31-2016, 08:36 PM
Y'all know this was 150 years ago right?

A civil war of the American mind is as recent as this morning's headlines.

oznabrag
05-31-2016, 08:41 PM
Ever day is Confederate Memorial Day, yankee. We don' never fergit.:rolleyes:


Edited t'add tha durn smilih fer tha edificashun uv Mister Russell.:cool:

Phillip Allen
05-31-2016, 08:55 PM
if secession was legal, the people here who supported the removal/destruction of confederate memorials got a lot of splaining to do and there will be no saving of face... the hate of the South lives on but the haters cannot afford to admit to it... it's where terms like awww shucks come from

Tom Hunter
05-31-2016, 09:46 PM
Lincoln gave a great many of them amnesty, because they were American citizens in rebellion. #2 is correct under law as practiced at the time. The US Govt was very careful not to do anything that would make #1 true.

Jimmy W
05-31-2016, 10:06 PM
if secession was legal, the people here who supported the removal/destruction of confederate memorials got a lot of splaining to do and there will be no saving of face... the hate of the South lives on but the haters cannot afford to admit to it... it's where terms like awww shucks come from
I was born in Mississippi and have lived in either Mississippi or Georgia all my life except for a few vacations north of the Mason-Dixon line. I have no problem with removal/destruction of Confederate memorials. There is no reason to memorialize those folks for making a huge mistake which the South is still paying for even if some were my ancestors.

oznabrag
05-31-2016, 10:38 PM
the hate of the South lives on but the haters cannot afford to admit to it...


I was born in Mississippi and have lived in either Mississippi or Georgia all my life except for a few vacations north of the Mason-Dixon line. I have no problem with removal/destruction of Confederate memorials. There is no reason to memorize those folks for making a huge mistake which the South is still paying for even if some were my ancestors.


To be fair its mainly called that in the north...in the South they call it 'The war of Northrun Aggression' or 'The war of Secession.'

But the real point is that the victors get to call it what they want -its why the American 'War of Independence' is called that as opposed to 'The Colonies Acting Up Yet Again War'


the hate in the South lives on but the haters cannot afford to admit to it...
FTFY

Your 'fixing it for him' merely illustrates his point.

I have lived in the South my whole life, so far, and I have never heard the Civil War referred to as the War of Northern Aggression, or the War of Secession except as a tongue-in-cheek poke at the damyankees.

You have clearly never spent any time down South.


"The friendliest people and the prettiest women you've ever seen." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaSQ9UZrBzQ)

Sure, there are some haters and malcontents, but you yankees think that's all there is to it. That only helps the haters and malcontents.

The rest of us try real hard to tell those idiots they're bein' idiots, but they just point at you yankees, and say 'Well he said . . .!!!'

Y'all really oughtta get over yourselves and give us honest folk a hand.

Ifn ya don' believe me, yew kin askt to Lew Barrett.

bamamick
06-01-2016, 07:28 AM
I think your question is pretty much the gist of the whole deal. The Union felt like it was illegal for the South to secede. The South felt like it was illegal for the Union to try and stop them. Isn't that the premise of Jefferson Davis' entire thesis on the war written in his captivity in Biloxi or wherever it was? What I read of it, anyway.

Mickey Lake

Canoez
06-01-2016, 08:02 AM
The genesis of Memorial Day came from General Order No. 11 from General John A. Logan:

I'll let you determine for yourself how you view it:


On the 5th of May 1868 as commander in cheif of the Grand Army of the republic, I issued to our comrades throughout the land the following order:

"Head quarters Grand Army of the Republic. Adjutant Generals office No 444, 14th Street Washington, D.C. May 5th 1868.

General Orders No 11.
I. The 30th day of May 1868 is designate for the purpose of strewing with flowers or otherwise decorating the graves of comrades, who died in defense, of their country during the late rebellion, and whose bodies now lie in almost every City, Village, and hamlet, church yard in the land. In this observance no form of ceremony is prescribed, but Posts and comrades will in their own way arrange such fitting services and testimonials of respect as circumstances may permit.

We are organized, comrades, as our regulations tell us for the purpose, among other things ' of preserving and strengthining those kind and fraternal feelings, which have bound together the soldiers, sailors and marines who united to suppress the late rebellion.' What can aid more to assure this result than by cherishing tenderly the memory of our heroic dead, who made their hearts a barricade between our country, and its foes, their soldier lives were the revilee of freedom, to a race in chains, and their deaths the tattoo of rebellious tyranny in arms. We should guard their graves with sacred vigilence, all that the consecrated wealth and toils of the nation can add to their adornment and security, is but a fitting tribute to the memory of her slain defenders. Let no wanton foot tread rudely on such halowed grounds. Let pleasant paths invite the coming and going of reverent vistors and fond mourners. Let no vandalism of averice, or neglect, no ravages of time, testify to the present, or to the coming generations, that we have forgotten, as a people the cost of a free and undivided Republic.

If other eyes grow dull, and other hands black, and other hearts cold, in the solemn trust, ours shall keep it well as long as the light, and warmth, of life remain to us. Let us, then, at the time appointed gather around their sacred remains, and garland the passionless mounds above them with the choicest flowers of Springtime: let us raise above them the dear old flag they saved from dishonor. Let us in this solemn presence renew our pledges to aid and assist those whom they have left among us, a sacred charge upon a nations gratitude the soldiers and sailors widow and orphan.

II- It is the purpose of the commander in cheif to inaugarate this observance with the hope that it will be kept up from year, to year, while a survivor of the war remains, to honor the memory of his departed comrades. He earnestly desires the public press to call attention to this order, and lend its friendly aid in bringing it to the notice of comrades in all parts of the country in time for simultaneous compliance therewith.

III- Department commanders will use every effort to make this order effective"

By order of John A. Logan" . Commander in Cheif"

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-01-2016, 08:19 AM
I understand that one issue that arose during the Civil War concerned burial arrangements. There was reluctance on the part of the Union Army to bury the dead of the Confederacy alongside their own fallen comrades. The Confederacy felt very strongly about this, and wanted their dead treated the same as the Union dead.

That seems to argue for (2).

Dan McCosh
06-01-2016, 08:34 AM
Were the soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War British, or Americans?

Dan McCosh
06-01-2016, 08:35 AM
One might also ask how many soldiers go to war without knowing which country they are fighting for?

S.V. Airlie
06-01-2016, 08:36 AM
Born English, died American.

Dan McCosh
06-01-2016, 08:37 AM
Born English, died American. Doesn't that make an assumption about which side you were on?

S.V. Airlie
06-01-2016, 08:41 AM
Well, I was thinking those fighting the British as your post basically implied. Of course, I could mention the Hessians if that makes you happy.

bamamick
06-01-2016, 10:08 AM
Anyone interested in the new movie coming out about Jones County, Mississippi? I am. Sort of like the way that 'Glory' exposed the world to the 54th Massachusetts and regiments like them, I think this is a story that many will find fascinating.

There was a county in Alabama that seceded from the state and refused to take down the American flag during the Civil War, and I think there was a lot of that in Tennessee (poor mountain farmers, and of course, non-slave owners).

The American Civil War is the second most written about event in the history of the English language behind the life of Jesus Christ (I either heard that somewhere or just made it up, but I believe it's correct), and there are still fascinating stories coming out about that period of our history.

Mickey Lake

Osborne Russell
06-01-2016, 10:57 AM
Ever day is Confederate Memorial Day, yankee. We don' never fergit.

Their bravery was an example to the world, but tragedy isn't beautiful, it's horrifying.

What do you think you are being asked to forget?

Osborne Russell
06-01-2016, 10:58 AM
#2 is correct under law as practiced at the time.

What's changed?

Osborne Russell
06-01-2016, 11:03 AM
I think your question is pretty much the gist of the whole deal. The Union felt like it was illegal for the South to secede. The South felt like it was illegal for the Union to try and stop them. Isn't that the premise of Jefferson Davis' entire thesis on the war written in his captivity in Biloxi or wherever it was? What I read of it, anyway.

That would be logical, given that the Confederate Constitution prohibited secession. The Confederates didn't include secession among the rights of man. Therefore their position had to be merely legal, i.e. the US Constitution allowed secession by failing to forbid it, a mistake the Confederates made sure not to repeat.

ahp
06-01-2016, 11:07 AM
And like the ancient Bourbons, you don't learn.

oznabrag
06-01-2016, 11:08 AM
Their bravery was an example to the world, but tragedy isn't beautiful, it's horrifying.

What do you think you are being asked to forget?

Dangit, Ozburn, Ah'm sorrih, but Ah fergot t'add th' smilih.

This hyere smilih raht cheer: :rolleyes:

Ah shore hope thet cleers thangs up, a mite.

oznabrag
06-01-2016, 11:17 AM
The genesis of Memorial Day came from General Order No. 11 from General John A. Logan:

I'll let you determine for yourself how you view it:

I view it as a direct contradiction to Abraham Lincoln's wishes.

Lincoln would have had him include all the dead.

As it is, such willful post-bellum animosity haunts this Nation to this day and, if anything propels Donald Trump into the White House, this will be it.



Anyone interested in the new movie coming out about Jones County, Mississippi? I am. Sort of like the way that 'Glory' exposed the world to the 54th Massachusetts and regiments like them, I think this is a story that many will find fascinating.

There was a county in Alabama that seceded from the state and refused to take down the American flag during the Civil War, and I think there was a lot of that in Tennessee (poor mountain farmers, and of course, non-slave owners).

The American Civil War is the second most written about event in the history of the English language behind the life of Jesus Christ (I either heard that somewhere or just made it up, but I believe it's correct), and there are still fascinating stories coming out about that period of our history.

Mickey Lake

I will be looking for that, Mickey. Do you know the title of this film?


What's changed?

Not a thing, as far as I can see. Lincoln was a lawyer, as you are aware, and he was very, very careful never to recognize the CSA in any light, shape or form.


2) They failed in their quest for independence. Thus, they were Americans the whole time.

bamamick
06-01-2016, 11:24 AM
'Free State of Jones', I believe.

Mickey Lake

oznabrag
06-01-2016, 11:28 AM
Thanks, Mickey.

bobbys
06-01-2016, 11:33 AM
when I wuz young and a tree climber Asplund sent crews from the south to help out.

they went on and on about the civil war.

I told them exsept for history class I never heard anyone discuss the civil war.

In their minds it must have still been going on.

Canoez
06-01-2016, 11:35 AM
I view it as a direct contradiction to Abraham Lincoln's wishes.

Lincoln would have had him include all the dead.

Perhaps. I think Logan and Montgomery Meigs both did some things that Lincoln would have taken them both to task for, but with the needs of the day, they were allowed to keep on. Logan's orders were obviously after Lincoln's death, so it is hard to tell much about the sentiment of the time other than that Logan's order was probably colored by his experience during the war.


As it is, such willful post-bellum animosity haunts this Nation to this day and, if anything propels Donald Trump into the White House, this will be it.



Agreed. However, I can't figure out for the life of me his popularity in the "North".

I should point out that the Village in which I reside, they have been having a "Remembrance Day" or "Memorial Day" parade for the last 145 or 148 years - continuously. General Logan's Order 11 is read at that ceremony every year. Monday's ceremony was particularly dedicated to those Veterans who died and served during the Vietnam conflict. As is noted at the Vietnam Veteran's Memorial wall in DC - not all those who died in the conflict died there.

bobbys
06-01-2016, 11:38 AM
There is a sign outside Hackensack heading south..

Best to remove Yer I luv NJ/ NY bumper stickers.

Daniel Noyes
06-01-2016, 11:44 AM
[Since this is the Bilge, I need to preface this with the "I mean no disrespect and am not trolling" disclaimer]

With the recent observance of Memorial Day, I have a question about Confederate soldiers for the Really Smart People:

Which is correct?

1) They seceded prior to fighting against the Union, therefore they were not Americans when they fought in the war.

2) They failed in their quest for independence. Thus, they were Americans the whole time.

Can someone smarter than I am expound on this? And if this was math class, show your work.


Confederate soldiers were... American Citizens and were not members of the United States Armed Forces, they were not US Army or Navy... does that answer your question?... Memorial day is to commemorate US Military dead.

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 11:48 AM
This question in a different way has been around the internet as "Do Civil War dead get to be buried in US Military cemeteries? The answer is, "Yes". They were American soldiers.

National reconciliation could have gone worse but, given how the Old South's oligarchy that had led the majority non-slavers into disaster had regained control within a generation, it's hard to see how much worse.

The South continues to have a good number people manipulated by their oligarchs to remain sore losers who are also openly racist. Their continuing unwillingness to be reconciled to the Union and to civil rights for all poisons whatever political movement they participate in. An example of how large that chip on their shoulders has grown can be found in fanciful falsehoods such as: " . . . the hate of the South lives on but the haters cannot afford to admit to it" [#9]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Confederate_Monument_-_S_face_tight_-_Arlington_National_Cemetery_-_2011.jpg/800px-Confederate_Monument_-_S_face_tight_-_Arlington_National_Cemetery_-_2011.jpg

oznabrag
06-01-2016, 11:57 AM
Perhaps. I think Logan and Montgomery Meigs both did some things that Lincoln would have taken them both to task for, but with the needs of the day, they were allowed to keep on. Logan's orders were obviously after Lincoln's death, so it is hard to tell much about the sentiment of the time other than that Logan's order was probably colored by his experience during the war.

I'm guessing that Logan was a Radical Republican, who would later support Grant for President. Johnson was trying to continue Lincoln's agenda, but the MIC* wasn't having any.



Agreed. However, I can't figure out for the life of me his popularity in the "North".




Same/same. Over the past 150-odd years, the insidious treason that was allowed to survive that war has multiplied in the shadows, and spread throughout the land. It has co-opted every marginalized citizen, and will wear any color or any mask necessary to gull its victims. Currently, its home is within the Republican Party, whose stated goal is the destruction of the Union.

Donald Trump is the Champion of that goal.



*MIC. Some folks will tell you that the MIC didn't develop until after World War II, but that is merely the time it reached maturity.
The industrialization of warfare was born in the US Civil War, and those who profited from that war used those profits to gear up to profit from the subjugation of the Western US, then the Spanish Empire, then China. . . and on they go to this day, getting wealthier and more powerful all along.

oznabrag
06-01-2016, 12:03 PM
This question in a different way has been around the internet as "Do Civil War dead get to be buried in US Military cemeteries? The answer is, "Yes". They were American soldiers.

National reconciliation could have gone worse but, given how the Old South's oligarchy that had led the majority non-slavers into disaster had regained control within a generation, it's hard to see how much worse.

The South continues to have a good number people manipulated by their oligarchs to remain sore losers who are also openly racist. Their continuing unwillingness to be reconciled to the Union and to civil rights for all poisons whatever political movement they participate in. An example of how large that chip on their shoulders has grown can be found in fanciful falsehoods such as: " . . . the hate of the South lives on but the haters cannot afford to admit to it" [#9]



Your primary mistake is to assume that these ideas remained in the South.

The sickness has spread.

A LOT.

Your insistence that " . . . the hate of the South lives on but the haters cannot afford to admit to it" is a bunch of flaming BS and 'a large chip on the shoulder' merely evidences your own, blinkered prejudice, and proves Phillip correct.

The South was NEVER DEFEATED, and the responsibility for the fallout from that failure lies squarely upon the shoulders of the yankees.

Daniel Noyes
06-01-2016, 12:04 PM
This question in a different way has been around the internet as "Do Civil War dead get to be buried in US Military cemeteries? The answer is, "Yes". They were American soldiers.



What is the definition of an "American Soldier" Confederates did not receive pensions from the US government for service in the war...

Bobcat
06-01-2016, 12:10 PM
What is the definition of an "American Soldier" Confederates did not receive pensions from the US government for service in the war...

They did starting in the 1930s

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 12:17 PM
No federal pension for people who did not serve in the federal army. True enough. And still true. You don't get a US pension for serving in the French Foreign Legion.

Burial of Confederates in Federal cemeteries has been mixed. Some cemeteries are all Union, filled up right after a battle. Some like Getteysberg are mixed just because there were so many. Some like Arlington have a separate section. But in general, Confederate soldiers who survived into the twentieth century for whom families sought burial in a US vets cemetery got that.

hokiefan
06-01-2016, 12:44 PM
This question in a different way has been around the internet as "Do Civil War dead get to be buried in US Military cemeteries? The answer is, "Yes". They were American soldiers.

National reconciliation could have gone worse but, given how the Old South's oligarchy that had led the majority non-slavers into disaster had regained control within a generation, it's hard to see how much worse.

The South continues to have a good number people manipulated by their oligarchs to remain sore losers who are also openly racist. Their continuing unwillingness to be reconciled to the Union and to civil rights for all poisons whatever political movement they participate in. An example of how large that chip on their shoulders has grown can be found in fanciful falsehoods such as: " . . . the hate of the South lives on but the haters cannot afford to admit to it" [#9]



Be that as it may, I hear more open, blatant, ugly racism here in Illinois than I ever heard in south Georgia.

CWSmith
06-01-2016, 12:53 PM
Be that as it may, I hear more open, blatant, ugly racism here in Illinois than I ever heard in south Georgia.

You can add Philadelphia and northern Maryland to that list.

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 12:55 PM
There are racists all over the nation. For the concentrations of actual hate groups, check out: http://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/07/09/10-states-with-the-most-hate-groups/2/

Breakaway
06-01-2016, 01:21 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by hokiefan http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4905829#post4905829)

Be that as it may, I hear more open, blatant, ugly racism here in Illinois than I ever heard in south Georgia.





As made famous:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ukFAvYP3UU


Kevin

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 01:27 PM
I am not looking to place the "blame" for racism on Southerners. You might even have noted that two of the top ten white power group states are not southern. But just as it does not diminish racism in northern states to point to the history of southern Jim Crow laws, so it does not get Southerners off any moral hook when they try to claim racism is worse in some northern city.

Racism is racism wherever it is. So's denial.

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 01:41 PM
"Still refusing to face the issue, I see." [#49]

Now there's a gratuitous falsehood. Since it's possible that it's made out of ignorance despite my many posts, my own work against racism has happened in New York, Connecticut, Oregon, New Hampshire and Massachusetts. That includes community organizing, often with groups that had consciously racist people, as well as efforts to promote civil rights and affirmative action laws especially in employment and rental housing.

Most of all, it means recognizing and engaging racism, sexism and other unfortunate prejudices in myself.

I've written of this enough here that if oznabrag believes his crack, he's ignored a great deal of what I've written here. I don't really think that's the case as it too much resembles other mal mots put out here with no basis in reality, but if the remark was made in honest ignorance, I hope I've cleared the matter to his satisfaction. Since I can't do better than simply state the truth about this, if it's not to oznabrag's satisfaction, way it goes.

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 04:18 PM
Total denial of the plain meaning of what you wrote, total evasion of responsibility and then an appallingly lame attempt to blame me for your untrue statement. oznabrag, that's worthy of your darling Trump.

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 05:22 PM
You quote me and then accuse me of "Still refusing to face the issue . . ." [#49]

Now you claim, "It is NOT all about you." [#51]

Remarkable.

Boater14
06-01-2016, 05:40 PM
In 1965 it might have been hard to tell who won. Every fort I trained at was named for a rebel, we rode on the Lee Highway, driving home for Christmas from Georgia to philly the black guy waited in the car and we brought him out a sandwich. He peed behind a tree and later served with the 101st in viet nam. One county in Mississippi had 37 black people registered to vote. And those HELL NO WE AINT FORGETTIN' bumper stickers all over the place. God damn voting rights act screwed it all up. Imagine, wanting to vote after winning a Purple Heart. Uppity I call it.

Dan McCosh
06-01-2016, 06:02 PM
Well, I was thinking those fighting the British as your post basically implied. Of course, I could mention the Hessians if that makes you happy. The Revolutionary War was a civil war, with neighbors fighting their neighbors.

Waddie
06-01-2016, 06:20 PM
They're dead; they no longer care. Why have any memorials? Tear 'em all down. Look instead to the future. They had their time. Their story is over. Memorials, of any kind, serve no real purpose. I think the whole idea of Memorial Day is a joke. The past doesn't instruct the present; it only holds it back.

regards,
Waddie

CWSmith
06-01-2016, 06:23 PM
In 1987 I was moving to Delaware and I was not happy about it. A good friend said, "There are good people everywhere." and he was right.

There are also racists everywhere. Fortunately, there are fewer all the time.

bamamick
06-01-2016, 08:03 PM
In 1965 it might have been hard to tell who won. Every fort I trained at was named for a rebel, we rode on the Lee Highway, driving home for Christmas from Georgia to philly the black guy waited in the car and we brought him out a sandwich. He peed behind a tree and later served with the 101st in viet nam. One county in Mississippi had 37 black people registered to vote. And those HELL NO WE AINT FORGETTIN' bumper stickers all over the place. God damn voting rights act screwed it all up. Imagine, wanting to vote after winning a Purple Heart. Uppity I call it.

I have a lot to say about this, but I don't think I could say what I want to without making a mess of things. I will just say this, that after the war nothing really changed as far as the economy of the south goes. It was almost completely rural and agrarian, and who gets ahead in that kind of environment, black or white? What opportunities were there for anyone to do better for their families in the Deep South? And what kind of world is it where the very few have all the wealth? Hell, we have seen examples of that in Europe and Asia, right? How did that work out? I am not making excuses for the Jim Crow laws or the horrific treatment of black citizens, but as someone who grew up here and who was in school during de-segregation, I can not separate the fact that social change will very seldom take root and grow without economic opportunity. The fact that we have so many decent paying jobs down here now has more to do with social change than anything the courts, the central government, the media or anything at all have done to help establish equality among the races in the modern South.

Mickey Lake

Boatfix
06-01-2016, 09:17 PM
They're dead; they no longer care. Why have any memorials? Tear 'em all down. Look instead to the future. They had their time. Their story is over. Memorials, of any kind, serve no real purpose. I think the whole idea of Memorial Day is a joke. The past doesn't instruct the present; it only holds it back.

regards,
Waddie

Stop for a minute and think about what all those Americans who landed on the beaches of Normandy went through and sacrificed. Thats just a micro snapshot of the sacrifices made by many so that we live as we do today. Memorial day is not a joke.





posted by oznabrag: What I am trying to show you is where the scaly beast that will propel Trump into the White House was hatched.

Trump is not a racist, millions of Americans agree that common sense needs to be exercised when dealing with the security of the US and protecting our sovereignty. Without borders we have no country. Wise up please.

Osborne Russell
06-01-2016, 09:25 PM
Be that as it may, I hear more open, blatant, ugly racism here in Illinois than I ever heard in south Georgia.

I heard it as a child from our neighbors who were from Michigan. When I went into the Army, I was astonished by what I heard, primarily from people from what used to be called the Northwest, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, etc. followed closely by the Philadelphia - New Jersey - New York axis. It was like they were competing.

Never really knew any southerners and so I was kind of worried. Turned out they were the best people, and the least racist, generally speaking. Who would you want in your platoon? Southerners, for sure.

Pretty much confirmed by the passing years.

Boatfix
06-01-2016, 09:40 PM
Really? How many examples of his general hatred for Hispanic people do you need?

Besides, racism is only a symptom.

Not one person has come forward in the last year of campaigning that had personal dealings with Donald Trump to say he was racist or bigot. Numerous people who have known him for many years have commented that Trump was neither a bigot or racist. The only way you can judge him to be either from his remarks throughout this campaign is to look at Trump through political glasses of bias and hatred.

Phillip Allen
06-01-2016, 09:44 PM
Not one person has come forward in the last year of campaigning that had personal dealings with Donald Trump to say he was racist or bigot. Numerous people who have known him for many years have commented that Trump was neither a bigot or racist. The only way you can judge him to be either from his remarks throughout this campaign is to look at Trump through political glasses of bias and hatred.

people will believe what pleases them...

Canoez
06-01-2016, 09:51 PM
Not one person has come forward in the last year of campaigning that had personal dealings with Donald Trump to say he was racist or bigot. Numerous people who have known him for many years have commented that Trump was neither a bigot or racist. The only way you can judge him to be either from his remarks throughout this campaign is to look at Trump through political glasses of bias and hatred.

Well... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83

Phillip Allen
06-01-2016, 09:58 PM
Well... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83

huff and puff? :)... really? :)

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 10:07 PM
Are you claiming, Phillip, that the quotes are false and the videos showing Trump saying them were staged with actors?

Canoez
06-01-2016, 10:07 PM
One of many sources.

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 10:18 PM
Looking through this whole thread, I think that while I got focused on the narrow point that it's a deflection when southerners make claims about racism being worse in the north, oznabrag was focused on his previous and more general point. I apologize for not understanding where he was coming from.

Vince Brennan
06-01-2016, 10:18 PM
Gentlemen, may I direct your attention to the title of the O.P., "Confederate Soldiers"?

Some years ago my wife, who is a civilian enthusiast for Civil War (I keep correcting her to ' States War' but it does'n'a guid!) enthusiast (as she lost no one in it) dragged me along on a quick trip to several battlefields (Antietam, Manassas and - my favourite - Fredricksberg.

Anti9etam was no problem. We walked the "Field Of Shoes", visited the old farmhouse cum hospital, corrected some inconsistencies evinced by "The Re-enactor Presenter" (some college kid working off a script with no appreciation of the actual pain and agony still reverberating from those walls), walked over quite a bit of the Manassas battlefields, but at Fredricksburg, when we hit what's left of the wall at Marye's Heights, I just kinda lost it.

All I could see was Meagher's Irish Brigade advancing into incredibly accurate and withering fire engendered by other Irishmen whose allegiance to the South was no less ardent than that of The Irish brigade of the North.


It is a trip well worth the taking.

The Bigfella
06-01-2016, 10:43 PM
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a 'Himmler Strasse' anywhere in Germany.

Try Munich

Nicholas Carey
06-01-2016, 10:43 PM
This past weekend we did a little road trip over the North Cascades Highway. On Memorial Day, we stopped in Nespelem, WA on The Colville Reservation and paid our respects to another American Vet: Chief Joseph of the Nez PercÚ. In the Jewish tradition, the kids placed stones on the headstone for remembrance.

Funny thing, though...for a tiny hamlet on the Rez with an even tinier cemetery, a surprising number of US military headstones, many with 1941-1945 dates of death. We don't deserve the Nez PercÚ.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7209/27374910606_f41e9cecd9_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/HH2zcm)IMG_1986.JPG by -Handforged- (https://flic.kr/p/HH2zcm)

Boatfix
06-01-2016, 10:57 PM
Are you claiming, Phillip, that the quotes are false and the videos showing Trump saying them were staged with actors?

I'll say you can spin remarks by Trump any way you want, but I doubt you have ever heard his original remarks but only the far left spun version which is in the majority of the news sources in the country.

Ian McColgin
06-01-2016, 11:06 PM
Doubt away. Denial is good for the true believer. Mostly I read his quotes in papers of record - I read everyone's stuff as I can look at cold print with greater clarity as to what the politician is actually saying - but I check the video when Trump makes a really outrageous remark. Trump's video clips speak clearly and with only his own spin.

The Bigfella
06-01-2016, 11:41 PM
Do they have a Hitler Strasse as well?

Are you too incompetent to do your own research, or just too lazy? Find out for yourself.

You should have some motivation, given your previous assertion was incorrect. Wouldn't want you to be getting a reputation, would we?

The Bigfella
06-01-2016, 11:52 PM
Nah, not incompetent or lazy, I just have a hulking Aussie gofer-boy that handles that stuff.

Sounds gay.

The Bigfella
06-01-2016, 11:58 PM
Well, I don't ask, but it seems to me he is.

Tch tch, so judgmental

Meanwhile... I wouldn't mind visiting this one

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Andersonville_Prison.jpg/1280px-Andersonville_Prison.jpg

Lew Barrett
06-02-2016, 12:25 AM
Read this (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77239.Andersonville), great book.

The Bigfella
06-02-2016, 04:05 AM
Read this (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77239.Andersonville), great book.

I read it as a teenager.

bamamick
06-02-2016, 06:30 AM
Gentlemen, may I direct your attention to the title of the O.P., "Confederate Soldiers"?

Some years ago my wife, who is a civilian enthusiast for Civil War (I keep correcting her to ' States War' but it does'n'a guid!) enthusiast (as she lost no one in it) dragged me along on a quick trip to several battlefields (Antietam, Manassas and - my favourite - Fredricksberg.

Anti9etam was no problem. We walked the "Field Of Shoes", visited the old farmhouse cum hospital, corrected some inconsistencies evinced by "The Re-enactor Presenter" (some college kid working off a script with no appreciation of the actual pain and agony still reverberating from those walls), walked over quite a bit of the Manassas battlefields, but at Fredricksburg, when we hit what's left of the wall at Marye's Heights, I just kinda lost it.

All I could see was Meagher's Irish Brigade advancing into incredibly accurate and withering fire engendered by other Irishmen whose allegiance to the South was no less ardent than that of The Irish brigade of the North.


It is a trip well worth the taking.

I have done Gettysburg, Antietam, a few others. What really struck me about Antietam was how small and contained it was. So much blood in so small an area. The sacrifice made by so many is very humbling when you can sit quietly and absorb it the way you can in some of the national battlefields.

Mickey Lake

Ian McColgin
06-02-2016, 06:41 AM
"With the exception of the actual perpetrators, every citizen of the USA is equally as culpable as am I for the lynching of Emmett Till." [#79]

True and very well said.

Osborne Russell
06-02-2016, 10:17 AM
The war was never 'won' by the presumptive victors. The evil, greed-driven, anti-humanitarian, fiendish self-delusion that allowed one person to own another as one owns a power tool was allowed to live.

State's rights were supposed to be all but obliterated by that victory, but 150 years later, Ammon Bundy is in thrall to that evil, that
serpent the US allowed to survive.

I don't follow what you mean here. A delusion was allowed to live that the war might have killed? How could the war have killed it?

State's rights were supposed to be taken away? All that happened was the abolition of slavery and the guarantee of US citizens' rights against infringement by the states. Nothing else was changed.

Too Little Time
06-03-2016, 12:02 PM
[Since this is the Bilge, I need to preface this with the "I mean no disrespect and am not trolling" disclaimer]

With the recent observance of Memorial Day, I have a question about Confederate soldiers for the Really Smart People:

Which is correct?

1) They seceded prior to fighting against the Union, therefore they were not Americans when they fought in the war.

2) They failed in their quest for independence. Thus, they were Americans the whole time.

Can someone smarter than I am expound on this? And if this was math class, show your work.


It depends on what side you were on. And since the winners write history ...

S.V. Airlie
06-03-2016, 12:05 PM
Well, I had ancestors on both sides! So, it really doesn't depend on one's side!

Osborne Russell
06-03-2016, 12:07 PM
It depends on what side you were on. And since the winners write history ...

What winners wrote the history of the decline and fall of the Roman empire? The Ostrogoths?

S.V. Airlie
06-03-2016, 12:11 PM
I have no issues with Confederate Tombstones with a Confederate flag placed there. They fought for what they considered right, and died for it. However, it's only appropriate in a cemetery.

bobbys
06-03-2016, 01:24 PM
"Still refusing to face the issue, I see." [#49]

Now there's a gratuitous falsehood. Since it's possible that it's made out of ignorance despite my many posts, my own work against racism has happened in New York, Connecticut, Oregon, New Hampshire and Massachusetts. That includes community organizing, often with groups that had consciously racist people, as well as efforts to promote civil rights and affirmative action laws especially in employment and rental housing.

Most of all, it means recognizing and engaging racism, sexism and other unfortunate prejudices in myself.

I've written of this enough here that if oznabrag believes his crack, he's ignored a great deal of what I've written here. I don't really think that's the case as it too much resembles other mal mots put out here with no basis in reality, but if the remark was made in honest ignorance, I hope I've cleared the matter to his satisfaction. Since I can't do better than simply state the truth about this, if it's not to oznabrag's satisfaction, way it goes.
.

Everywhere you lived is a economic gated community, you relieve your guilt by crying racism at everything when in reality it's a political tool to be used on the backs of minorities..

Spare us.

S.V. Airlie
06-03-2016, 01:27 PM
bobbys, do you know where Ian lives, knows the area and have been there? Posts like yours are beyond stupid!

Ian McColgin
06-03-2016, 01:48 PM
My dear bobbys, as I grew up my family grew in affluence. When I was little and Dad was a young pilot, a friend's dad was a long haul trucker who made more than my dad. But Dad eventually became a PanAm Captain which was indeed good money. I consider my childhood and youth with country, horses, boats, and the love of a family that values education as a childhood of wonderful privilege.

But I never lived in anything gated and once I was graduated from high school my living situation has been defined, constrained mostly, by my low paying jobs. Never owned land. Always cheap rentals until I was able to start living on cheap elderly boats. If you've followed the LastBoat threads you'll know that with the death of my parents I have been able to invest in commissioning a rather wonderful boat.

It's simply stupid prejudice to think that a Hyannis post office box means that I live near any of the millionaires whose McMansions are metastasizing along the Cape shoreline. All my adult life I have lived among the people for whom I worked. And while all that work has been with the poor and the oppressed, I have not lived in the most desperate of urban slums, or any urban areas for that matter. I'm more with the rural poor.

I have been privileged in this life. Privileged to have a good and continuing education giving me a mind with which I have fun, privileged to not have children or family commitments that would have made my lifetime low income a matter of actual suffering, and privileged to work on many things that where poor people made their lives better, especially in health care access and housing.