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preserved_killick
05-27-2016, 02:18 PM
The latest step in building my Beach Pea is fitting a rudder. Doug Hylan mentions that fitting the rudder is fiddly, and he's right. Doug also mentions using eye bolts as gudgeons, but in looking for a proper shippy look I sprung for bronze gudgeon and pintles from Ducktrap:
http://ducktrapstore.com/sternpost-gudgeon-bronze/

I'm having difficulty getting everything lined up so the rudder turns freely. At this point, the gudgons are held on with tiny sheetrock screws to see what works, and no matter where I put the top gudgeon, when I pivot the rudder the axis of the pivot point does not align with the pivot point of the bottom gudgeon. The bottom of the rudder wants to travel along an arc near the bottom, which seems correct given the curve of the rudder.

I've seen images of curved rudders on double-enders, what's the magic I'm missing to make this work?

http://s33.postimg.org/6h9cx5flr/IMG_20160527_135112.jpg


http://s33.postimg.org/s4pmn0unz/IMG_20160527_135130.jpg

Thorne
05-27-2016, 02:30 PM
Never tried it myself, but have you considered using or making one of the curved bar rudder mounts that are often used on small double-enders?

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/images/elflis1.gif

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/Small%20Reach%20Regatta%202007/DSC04204.jpg


http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?66461-double-ender-rudder-hardware



I suspect that you're encountering the "angle of the dangle" problem of the pintles binding due to different angles on the two linkages.

A thread on this topic - http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?148763-Mounting-rudder-on-a-double-ender

Ian McColgin
05-27-2016, 02:42 PM
You need to let the gudgeons and pintals in a bit such that the pintals aim in a straight line. Start with the gudgeons tilting the bottom of the upper one into the stern and the top of the lower gudgeon in. Then position the pintals to fit. The bow of the stern will arc into the line between the pintals but that does not matter at all. All that matters is having the thing swing on the same axis.

Peerie Maa
05-27-2016, 03:03 PM
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/peerie_maa/Idiot%20proof/finished004.jpg

Just relieve the inside of the holes with a round file to an hourglass shape, flared top and bottom. This will allow the pins to move out of "alignment" as the rudder swings.

Gib Etheridge
05-27-2016, 03:35 PM
^ You can start with a counterbore bit. That, and drilling out the remainder of the holes to just a bit larger may be all that you need. If not, a chainsaw file will finish it up nicely.

That's nice work p-k. (Hey, did you ever read "The Power of One"? There's a guy in there named PK. Great book, crappy movie.)

http://3.imimg.com/data3/EU/RV/MY-9427996/counterbore-drill-bit-500x500.jpg (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjG_K2ljPvMAhUS2GMKHYNRACoQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acutecmachines.com%2Fcounterb ore-drill-bit.html&psig=AFQjCNEz-pa77U2v3fWEOb6yLm4he3owgQ&ust=1464467380435807)

stromborg
05-27-2016, 06:13 PM
https://photos.smugmug.com/Boats/Eun-Mara/i-Czjh8GV/0/L/IMGP0051-L.jpg

I padded out the attachment points for the gudgeons on the the stem to get the pins lined up (I made gudgeons for both the stem and rudder, connecting them with a bit of bronze rod). The alignment came out very close though not perfect. In the end I bored out the holes in the rudder-side gudgeons and put a nylon bushing in there to quiet the bit of slop that resulted.

In use there is always a bit of weather helm so I never really notice the parts aren't machined to NASA-worthy specs.

Falcon1
05-27-2016, 06:33 PM
Mine is Oughtred, like above, and the skeg made the curve a lot closer to straight. Also like Steve, I used the 4 gudgeons with some 5/16 bronze rod. I ended up padding out the curve a bit too, and also managed to roll a slight curve into my rod.

In use, I really love it. Very secure. But getting it fit was a PITA. Round file and chainsaw file both got a lot of use a s well as sanding down the rod. It's a great fit now though.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7765/27019411080_d6258e0438_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/HaBxzb)rudder:tiller (https://flic.kr/p/HaBxzb) by Michael Owen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107084128@N08/), on Flickr

timo4352
05-27-2016, 07:26 PM
...another option is how I ended up doing mine -- I added this little skeg-like piece to give me a straight landing for the hardware.
I have no regrets about doing it this way.
https://gunningdory.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/imgp9691.jpg?w=640&h=427

preserved_killick
05-28-2016, 06:00 AM
Thanks everyone. Thinking about this more, and after looking at the photos you all posted (thanks), as Ian says it now seems obvious that the rudder pintles need to be aligned on the same plane for the rudder to turn freely. Some of you achieved this by building out the stern to less curve, or shimming the gudgeons, or/and building in a little slop into each pintle/gudgeon connection.

I think that I'll drill/file the hole in my upper gudgeon to be more inline with the lower gudgeon hole. There's a bit of meat on the inside of the upper gudgeon's hole so I think I can file in an angle at the bottom and leave the top of the hole unchanged at the surface.

http://s33.postimg.org/8xiyx9k9b/IMG_20160528_063114.jpg

If I had known this, and it works, I wonder if Ducktrap would sell the gudgeon un-drilled, and I could drill my own hole at an angle. Let's see if it works.

PK

preserved_killick
05-28-2016, 06:05 AM
I think this is an elegant solution. It looks like the keel protects the bottom of the rudder more.

preserved_killick
05-28-2016, 06:06 AM
Gib,

PK is short for Preserved Killick, a character in a favorite series of books from Patrick O Brien: Master and Commander series.

preserved_killick
05-28-2016, 07:29 AM
I think this is an elegant solution. It looks like the keel protects the bottom of the rudder more.



Mine is Oughtred, like above, and the skeg made the curve a lot closer to straight. Also like Steve, I used the 4 gudgeons with some 5/16 bronze rod. I ended up padding out the curve a bit too, and also managed to roll a slight curve into my rod.

In use, I really love it. Very secure. But getting it fit was a PITA. Round file and chainsaw file both got a lot of use a s well as sanding down the rod. It's a great fit now though.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7765/27019411080_d6258e0438_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/HaBxzb)rudder:tiller (https://flic.kr/p/HaBxzb) by Michael Owen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107084128@N08/), on Flickr

Peerie Maa
05-28-2016, 09:27 AM
Thanks everyone. Thinking about this more, and after looking at the photos you all posted (thanks), as Ian says it now seems obvious that the rudder pintles need to be aligned on the same plane for the rudder to turn freely. Some of you achieved this by building out the stern to less curve, or shimming the gudgeons, or/and building in a little slop into each pintle/gudgeon connection.

I think that I'll drill/file the hole in my upper gudgeon to be more inline with the lower gudgeon hole. There's a bit of meat on the inside of the upper gudgeon's hole so I think I can file in an angle at the bottom and leave the top of the hole unchanged at the surface.

http://s33.postimg.org/8xiyx9k9b/IMG_20160528_063114.jpg

If I had known this, and it works, I wonder if Ducktrap would sell the gudgeon un-drilled, and I could drill my own hole at an angle. Let's see if it works.

PK
The holes need to flare so that your idea works at all angles from port helm to starboard.

skaraborgcraft
05-28-2016, 10:48 AM
Nothing to add, but good to see various ideas to solve the same issue. With regards to the holes, you could always fill up your existing holes with a batch of epoxy mixed with bronze powder. and then re-drill your holes to suit.

Paul Scheuer
05-28-2016, 11:48 AM
Google - Bronze Lag Pintle.

whatshisname
05-28-2016, 04:09 PM
The gudeons on my Arctic Tern Osprey, were custom designed to hold the pintles in the same axis. This allows the rudder to rotate freely without any interference from the stem. It also makes is super easy to attach the rudder before launching.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KHrH_UvzZ81t1DmAh6TR-MsJXtxvcl8DAiXxd-uzaGrqjlP9A4qngDEzszH4x0WIfTo7YKJjlFGLUmDAUtYEkS-TVSt5t35WqZPiOgJXyJHEwzn-g8IHONqAxihW3PrZtlwxZ0t76eIxy-SFQiYNvNoqO-YnnF25f9KjbKhkC7CjvBM9EBhgatsJYwP_RRGK6TI0NWTWr9dV wjRig35nLr6WEOiqN8IInfwjVd-LLxKPIIfPgPpF31GGEZDJm2VvOdJrfQUjjJl3xWaEA-Y7rnQAX5cwgNldpKDi-Qtrp2S9wHcYAksUlTZ9CL_WY_SHSXF99VjuYJ9NwDwAR9S0Zbl c0R-MC-fMBnrq2KLxvwJ7A8Dt72PTK5sjb67iOa8UMAPIn6WHLU_Ok2zK 8zfqYAI28pnO2aQDMHcIzABFV-mpzziHg9_yaP3jLERvsKTIWvS98smpKH7_BpaRXwKmWAOLlu1i fDqNttFSA3aJsaDIWhuaEBfeeGB3ARLHr2cLfYV5r7gWcgDCmg wxpls6XfhkEHIxh5LEgAYVhcftXFlMD5b2M8t8Lcof8ZEqESlf pGMNphCKH_cQ0b85IvLDGsU1d7o82eM=w464-h773-no

A large u-shaped bronze bail attached to the rudder head acts as a "sheet block". Since the inside apogee of the bail is on the same axis as the pintles of the rudder, it does not interfere with the tension of the mizzen sheet regardless of the direction the rudder is pointing. So there are additional advantages to having the pintles on a single axis.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bE9yYM4Mp2RWP5CKQPUfZZ-hGn33f4RTFJg077xez6r-UuJRfFRyzYwMoEZayaB4TFgO9PrwV66FPTgnfgTc0wrUQsDtrK pqYV1mq5fteJrI6Bwgvb0e-eTXHrKsU8u8JP3hHZ2a0fvEwESALZxWjjCA68URrf-LRHOZUirWzyJVoVqGK1k_n_XvjAJOEbbX7Cxhx_DMJLfxhJVsA T2CJyUQklxAsK1Mp5Sg96eV4AzkQAIcpcIDKWz-ty00fOKi9mQMcy_V7CSKpznNeobCj9BFP-n9x11ANXmwdpeVsN8Po7naWcXYoWqNE7Tbb1Pbsy06Y61Q8tPW JrkJgKop0p68yY_qQ09aTLXcYv5f5HN9l5ST3yhoViFVnTXWb7 iq-LZ6OJ0BMQZIFa3HEnL4qB0aIqiqR7Gpcl7z6vIZPCwqy0N5zHa fnjwvx0TLTdiIK-36mrosdfKl0IDO-4PQ5Plzx3BTWvMPMK19xXfnD5meGQImTJ4ctMoAT7DuRoPWZ9R 2LwsFO7tWPou_1NYilSWclnIOJ19Vk747KrR-9zAtCDwPUIS4aEVOtI47lXJoZk1jBD5r8Xg24kh7Wbj1jUADgw 6DErY=w1375-h773-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7i-6_vWBQZkaNfZFjbyaLNttAPHFQDWk-nML-qNp8KJTmROYwTg2kczdf7FZT262Beh373WST9hWqUh6raWXFh5 OgJMhYPGGIuUB1UVxhlF4ZbySm2pHIlP4K_RLbpkSvW2P7DuMn zuM3E6mp6rlUNk17RLhchDFUA-ZAwsdMokEsN12XOGK2JuESHjoF-OKrv04CqmUXGRXX-X154_T-TJAumO0ec4omGu0sZYPEuLcWA4B2tGxkWe0ZQbWBwBPH-4p9asAMjk_dgNf8-AuB2BR2L9DTINyoxGZWNwnUNC_QsfA4m2PE7zjMhr-XaCScrgzfuC_DkbRCQzvimaDS9smTxdtTvstgVR7BYtP_1wIWv vjs93a2m_nNhP3TzaxZ5UUv1V_vviQjpEAxv7hgjJlWZwRawBT e8JvOp4ap0rxgiCRqzK6G1AlhVXhQ4q8myzCTTTPKLbC7wJ27N PZcqYRMHhfjsaROw5bkoYUZ7YWJqckq_WlQUbTnmHkn-Yf96R0s0Nk1zuFozxeTGnY16cVXK-E0VazPn6NabusAkrBRBeBlGnNgAlMToGznRbd9bPfdez_bl1bc BkQ6gGPsVLIleGrKxs=w435-h773-no

EeBe4
05-28-2016, 05:19 PM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-U-Kq4TtYrnJmyeTL0NccvYrWXmgr4B2vkm4ryKKJUh9oTWhpIXW3 VwA-Pcge_PrbHu-iBgzhckyxpM-JpgKI_tAB_i5AAIY5AHhqSiin1OcCrHCwd3ZwhLTP6ZPO1h0Hz 48ik3bsVLkf1Tp69k6wX-m7Ww2SYYwMelflytuqVmUBz5a-zTWFJAxkHA9lGoBsTOojbFXAricXtfcQM6dbKNnitkb4EAxe9O-RVgUFZ3U-DyGWtdpS7LCla9aBfmArRmUJoXXhaq3f7rdZVZHdwWs47HCxDF OYTZ9RAbFXJ_VR4lbWtA23FoR_xYN9Wp-vRN8VTRRtcPpY0tqUIBwqOVEn9o-gXEE3yDN3YQvN7jbCTJXUE5KjI-LRA-l-xBgk7rsaM2dIUosvqLHexTafxu1ePmwZM7sAZrJab6UEoCXxrs WzHYUsCoXs-_9gBucVqKjLj6MUfK6oMT5YXiGo5z-bJfsUqu93LHWdSAqd3G4bjM3RJYIbjgLNgMkPYLMHFJOBs9ZI3 x-lt6f9Gtf75DK_gWRv8WQ-xfB5faYwtlH4S_NIpN0qR1F5mmEJxj5RYo4nh0TcNSE1YRHIDf gunWYCzW4enU=w1304-h628-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HDiTgMBsgzYflWlujziglJUpBuRaC8V8OyumVO_Kk-_11_O_wm5i1JXA9orCYxr8lYwHdJZaq6Tt4V2USUGPpr3rDeTr sSWJS6N5Z9OwUH8ckNXoSOmkbbH5UWmzNJkJEUBlAfdlFY2sQn ymJL8AqleHC-ndLT7O5qNfkG6sWyKWXPxJOgzJPhSdKHY7vIfGp3POBZB5zkAw 7HRCKOkWiweTn9VhkUUHc1zwQhah6GEBxaG6_lIS8srQkCQjHO Ntk9KMKfYkfF5HokIsXmNnNF75bp4cJz7vCRgjGaCuj-Pu3G7Du0z_1NaTu8JvNiD0Si4Tr5RVsL6LBXRqMbCCUewRPK_Q xuvUS_WRUgVGEKS6UgeI3rQLzyijBb9SRIrU0gAlE_j2eRhpiu po0tSik_3Nnr4A1txq3HPVVLhtpWWLH18NoyTaCn586O078h9O r4giEDQdObcrHE9_SfAuwqn0knRI49__mKyF-8L9RIbg9398QRgXI37ry6XSfWLhw9DfrxDlNSuHLQf9GsaPc9V SoVHkQCydq5iryzc0End1-rf-wbx1b-ygXgMpWQIHlUP7fup1mTC5fUTehSv3WxTk7mb7dJY=w546-h730-no

Chip-skiff
05-28-2016, 05:24 PM
If I had known this, and it works, I wonder if Ducktrap would sell the gudgeon un-drilled, and I could drill my own hole at an angle. Let's see if it works.

I recall buying a set with no holes drilled from Ducktrap.

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-7czm4/products/156/images/520/castings__18477.1424743313.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

http://ducktrapstore.com/rudder-hardware-castings-set-of-4-gudgeons/

Ben Fuller
05-28-2016, 05:46 PM
The Ducktrap gudgeons have a fundamental problem with curved stern post. Namely they take their angle from the position that they are mounted on the stern post. Gudgeons with ears let you play with the angle of the gudgeons when mounting them. These are best suited to a straight stern post. You might consider some shims the way poster #17 did. I think that is the only poster with gudgeons like your.

timo4352
05-28-2016, 05:58 PM
Just a thought --- you could pattern those wedges in wood and have them cast in bronze to really make them custom.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-U-Kq4TtYrnJmyeTL0NccvYrWXmgr4B2vkm4ryKKJUh9oTWhpIXW3 VwA-Pcge_PrbHu-iBgzhckyxpM-JpgKI_tAB_i5AAIY5AHhqSiin1OcCrHCwd3ZwhLTP6ZPO1h0Hz 48ik3bsVLkf1Tp69k6wX-m7Ww2SYYwMelflytuqVmUBz5a-zTWFJAxkHA9lGoBsTOojbFXAricXtfcQM6dbKNnitkb4EAxe9O-RVgUFZ3U-DyGWtdpS7LCla9aBfmArRmUJoXXhaq3f7rdZVZHdwWs47HCxDF OYTZ9RAbFXJ_VR4lbWtA23FoR_xYN9Wp-vRN8VTRRtcPpY0tqUIBwqOVEn9o-gXEE3yDN3YQvN7jbCTJXUE5KjI-LRA-l-xBgk7rsaM2dIUosvqLHexTafxu1ePmwZM7sAZrJab6UEoCXxrs WzHYUsCoXs-_9gBucVqKjLj6MUfK6oMT5YXiGo5z-bJfsUqu93LHWdSAqd3G4bjM3RJYIbjgLNgMkPYLMHFJOBs9ZI3 x-lt6f9Gtf75DK_gWRv8WQ-xfB5faYwtlH4S_NIpN0qR1F5mmEJxj5RYo4nh0TcNSE1YRHIDf gunWYCzW4enU=w1304-h628-no

Yeadon
05-28-2016, 06:02 PM
I used similar wedges on Big Food to line up the pintle/gudgeon assemblies. Fussy job.

Gib Etheridge
05-28-2016, 07:11 PM
I used TimO's approach. Works fine.

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s412/GibEtheridge/Pedal%20Dory/030_zpsqe3qkkrr.jpg

Ben Fuller
05-28-2016, 07:52 PM
Two of my double enders take a different approach. Both use custom made flanged or U gudgeons. The ducker's are short because there is not much meat on the stern post and is wide kind of leaf shaped. Fastenings are rivits that go all the way through the stern post and out the other flange. At the top there is no pintle rather a second gudgeon on the rudder and there is removable pin to hold them together ( threaded at the top for a chain lanyard but a clevis pin could work. It lets you thread the bottom gudgeon and pintle together with the rudder at an angle, then straighten it up and drop in the pin.

The afjords faering uses a similar principle with blacksmith fabricated hardware. The gudgeons are fastened to the stern post with flanges that go up and down. On one side the flange is bent up the other down. It also uses a gudgeon on the rudder at the top , with the pin captured in an interesting fabricatd fitting that works kind of like a doors bolt.

Ran Tan's gudgeons are stainless fabrications I don't recall whether they were welded or machined but the result is threaded bolts with conventional pintles on the rudder. The straigth stern post makes lining up easy; works so easily that I needed install a catch to keep the rudder on in a capsize.

Peerie Maa
05-29-2016, 03:05 AM
Two of my double enders take a different approach.

The afjords faering uses a similar principle with blacksmith fabricated hardware. The gudgeons are fastened to the stern post with flanges that go up and down. On one side the flange is bent up the other down. It also uses a gudgeon on the rudder at the top , with the pin captured in an interesting fabricatd fitting that works kind of like a doors bolt.

See Peerie Maa in post #4. The Shetland and Norwegian upper fitting follows the same methodology. Makes shipping the rudder a doddle, and prevents it riding up and off.

Wooden Boat Fittings
05-29-2016, 06:14 AM
More solutions, including an original Norwegian faering's original one, here (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?3219-Attaching-a-faering-s-rudder).

Mike

Ben Fuller
05-29-2016, 06:33 AM
See Peerie Maa in post #4. The Shetland and Norwegian upper fitting follows the same methodology. Makes shipping the rudder a doddle, and prevents it riding up and off.

Yup, but Afjords is little different, in fact I had to go to the barn for a look. The top, 'bolt', is a single piece with double loops. The gudgeon on the rudder fits in between them. on the bottom the gudgeon is on the stern post. One flange goes straight back, the other sweeps up in a graceful arc. Everything is rivited, with the upper ones like the ducker work like bolts going all the way thru the fitting.

preserved_killick
05-29-2016, 03:52 PM
Awesome solutions. Seems there's more then one way to make this work. I'll need an hour to explore all the interesting side threads to read.

In my case, I was able to enlarge the hole of the top gudgeon from the bottom, so that the pintle pin is much closer inline to the bottom gudgeon. Since the hole was enlarged at the bottom, it does not show at the top. Just a little bit of play, but I that might be handy in use as the rudder will not stay on the boat. The arms of the pintles are morticed "let-in" to the rudder. Looking at the side profile, the curve of the rudder no longer follows the curve of the stem so I'll move the top pintle back just a touch. The screw at the bottom will be the axle of the kick-up portion of this rudder.

Adding the rudder hardware was more of a task than I had anticipated!

http://s33.postimg.org/5x8z1xq27/sun.jpg