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genglandoh
05-13-2016, 09:53 AM
I think people should use the bathroom, locker room and shower based on their body parts.
So Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner should use the men s bathroom, locker room and shower.

Norman Bernstein
05-13-2016, 09:55 AM
I think people should use the bathroom, locker room and shower based on their body parts.
So Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner should use the men s bathroom, locker room and shower.

Why? Are transgendered people rapists? And when did showers come into this stupid argument?

Gerarddm
05-13-2016, 09:57 AM
Praise Allah, I have geng on Ignore.

TomF
05-13-2016, 09:57 AM
Does Jenner want to shower with 12 year old girls?

John of Phoenix
05-13-2016, 09:57 AM
And when did showers come into this stupid argument?Just now. By the lord of the Stupid Argument.

Waddie
05-13-2016, 09:58 AM
Praise Allah, I have geng on Ignore.

Then how do you see what he posts?

regards,
Waddie

Hwyl
05-13-2016, 09:59 AM
I'm certain that in 60 plus years of using public toilets. I have been in the men's toilet with women dressed as men. I don't ask fellow patrons to show me their genitalia, do you? If so I.m not sure I'd lie to be in a bathroom with you.

Keith Wilson
05-13-2016, 10:05 AM
The last time I checked, women's bathrooms have lots of little stalls, with doors and locks. So do men's bathrooms. And AFAIK, transgender men with female plumbing are physically incapable of using a urinal, and would have to go pee in the little stalls, in private. I also expect that people whose genitals don't correspond to their gender identity are generally not comfortable using communal showers for either sex. Most people have showers at home, so that's not a real problem.

Why are you concerned with this? Can you give us any evidence that it's a problem that needs to be corrected, or even thought about? I've seen some creepy guys in men's bathrooms, but they were never transsexuals.

Breakaway
05-13-2016, 10:34 AM
He's talking about showers. For instance,the public swimming pool where I grew up had "Men" and "Women" locker rooms. The locker rooms held lockers, the toilets and showers. The shower was a communal tiled area with maybe 8 or ten shower heads. You went in to pee, you couldn't avoid seeing naked people showering, changing at a locker, etc. I suppose Geng is asking for opinions of that kind of situation.

If that is the case, then I say showers and changing rooms and locker rooms should be restricted to those with similar equipment, unless they are "stalled and walled" so that each fixture or piece of equipment provides privacy for the user.

Kevin

CWSmith
05-13-2016, 10:35 AM
Before we worry too much about transgendered women showering with 12-year old girls, let's get something else straight:

How many adults women shower with 12-year old girls?

If the answer is zero, and it better damn sight be, then all that is left is 12-year old transgendered girls showering with 12-year old girls. What's wrong with that?

Waddie
05-13-2016, 10:38 AM
How many adults women shower

All this talk of showing is getting me horny. Wonder what the wife is doing...................

regards,
Waddie

John of Phoenix
05-13-2016, 10:38 AM
This is SUCH a dilemma! What EVER shall we do?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Porta_Potty_by_David_Shankbone.jpg/1280px-Porta_Potty_by_David_Shankbone.jpg

Arizona Bay
05-13-2016, 10:40 AM
In NC you can use pepper spray... :rolleyes:


North Carolina school system to allow pepper spray


A North Carolina school system has adopted a policy allowing high school students to carry pepper spray this fall, a policy one board member said may be useful for students who encounter transgender classmates in the bathroom.
The Salisbury Post reports (http://bit.ly/1TzmUGY) the policy was adopted by the Rowan-Salisbury Board of Education during a work session on Monday.
Board member Chuck Hughes said using the sprays was purely defensive, and he referenced the North Carolina law that limits LGBT rights, saying such sprays could help female students if they go to the bathroom and don't know who's coming in after them.
The defensive spray clause won't affect students until it's published in the upcoming student handbook.








Potty Party crotch puppies....

TomF
05-13-2016, 10:40 AM
I dunno if Republicans are allowed to use those things, JoP. If they only made them in Red ...

John of Phoenix
05-13-2016, 10:53 AM
NPR interviewed some NC police department Public Information Officers. The bottom line is that beside being a Stupid law, it's impossible to enforce.

"We would have to station a police officer at every public bathroom to check the birth certificates of everyone entering. We have more important things to do."

So reds in NC have cost the state billions in revenue and made themselves look stupid. That had to have been the Plan because there was no other possible outcome.

George Jung
05-13-2016, 10:58 AM
I wonder if the intent of the law is to 'allow' folks to assault TG folk entering 'their' bathrooms. Pretty messed up bunch, NC way.

Michael D. Storey
05-13-2016, 11:07 AM
There is an assumption goin on here, engendered in the opening comment, that transgendered people retain the body parts with which they were born. The truth is that not all do. Where do they shower? Also, most public schools that have locker rooms for women have shower stalls designed for one, in addition to communal. Also, less than 5% of transgendered persons, which remain a very small section of our population, have so identified by age 12. There are maybe 150 in the entire nation. So, in North Carolina, there might be five or ten, at the most. After a century and then some of separate but equal and other lies, here they are makin laws to "protect" the state population from 5 or 10 kids. I am sure that there are no other fish as desperately in need of frying in that state, or in this country, for that matter.
Time to move on, here.

Keith Wilson
05-13-2016, 11:07 AM
So reds in NC have cost the state billions in revenue and made themselves look stupid. That had to have been the Plan because there was no other possible outcome.Again, the bathroom stuff was only peripheral. The NC law also repealed local statutes barring discrimination in employment and 'public accommodation' (everything open to the public), explicitly legalizing discrimination against gay folks. "No, I won't serve you because you're a sodomite; get the hell out of my restaurant" is now perfectly fine according to NC law. It also repealed municipal laws raising the minimum wage. I keep repeating this because it's important that everybody understands it. It's not just bathrooms.

LeeG
05-13-2016, 11:09 AM
Call out the genital police! You must have gov't verified genitalia. Trump 2016!

John of Phoenix
05-13-2016, 11:10 AM
I wonder if the intent of the law is to 'allow' folks to assault TG folk entering 'their' bathrooms. Pretty messed up bunch, NC way.Can you imagine a transgender woman in a men's bathroom? All that blood everywhere?

John of Phoenix
05-13-2016, 11:14 AM
Again, the bathroom stuff was only peripheral. The NC law also repealed local statutes barring discrimination in employment and 'public accommodation' (everything open to the public), explicitly legalizing discrimination against gay folks. "No, I won't serve you because you're a sodomite; get the hell out of my restaurant" is now perfectly fine according to NC law. It also repealed municipal laws raising the minimum wage. I keep repeating this because it's important that everybody understands it. It's not just bathrooms.Thanks for the reminder as those are extremely important violations of human rights. The OP, as stupid as it is, addressed the more prurient aspects of the law.

genglandoh
05-13-2016, 11:31 AM
He's talking about showers. For instance,the public swimming pool where I grew up had "Men" and "Women" locker rooms. The locker rooms held lockers, the toilets and showers. The shower was a communal tiled area with maybe 8 or ten shower heads. You went in to pee, you couldn't avoid seeing naked people showering, changing at a locker, etc. I suppose Geng is asking for opinions of that kind of situation.

If that is the case, then I say showers and changing rooms and locker rooms should be restricted to those with similar equipment, unless they are "stalled and walled" so that each fixture or piece of equipment provides privacy for the user.

Kevin

Thank you for understanding my post.
Many have ignored or did not read the section about body parts.

As to enforcement it is simple.
If a person with male body parts is in a women s bathroom, locker room or shower you call the police.
This is what is done today so no change.

If a transgender person has made the full commitment and have changed their body parts then IMHO they are a women and should use women facilities.

Keith Wilson
05-13-2016, 11:38 AM
I don't think a transgender woman with male genitalia would want to use a public women's shower - or a men's one, in fact. It's hard enough living that way without deliberately making it worse.

hokiefan
05-13-2016, 11:38 AM
Thank you for understanding my post.
Many have ignored or did not read the section about body parts.

As to enforcement it is simple.
If a person with male body parts is in a women s bathroom, locker room or shower you call the police.
This is what is done today so no change.

If a transgender person has made the full commitment and have changed their body parts then IMHO they are a women and should use women facilities.

Not according to the North Carolina law. Once a man, always a man. Even after you cut the man-bits off and take hormones to grow breasts.

ccmanuals
05-13-2016, 11:42 AM
I think a better question is why are republicans so concerned about bathrooms, genitalia, and sex?

C. Ross
05-13-2016, 11:58 AM
He's talking about showers. For instance,the public swimming pool where I grew up had "Men" and "Women" locker rooms. The locker rooms held lockers, the toilets and showers. The shower was a communal tiled area with maybe 8 or ten shower heads. You went in to pee, you couldn't avoid seeing naked people showering, changing at a locker, etc. I suppose Geng is asking for opinions of that kind of situation.

If that is the case, then I say showers and changing rooms and locker rooms should be restricted to those with similar equipment, unless they are "stalled and walled" so that each fixture or piece of equipment provides privacy for the user.

Kevin

Yes and I think this is exactly why this issue is such a red herring. My kids never once showered at school in a shared shower, after gym class or volleyball. Never ever once. And it's quickly becoming that way everywhere. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-02/family/os-florida-students-shower-in-school-20110102_1_shower-after-gym-class-inspections-by-gym-teachers-practice-and-rigorous-competitions

I wonder if the legislators who voted for this have been in a school locker room or a gym or health club anytime in the last twenty years.

Upshur
05-13-2016, 12:01 PM
Can you imagine a transgender woman in a men's bathroom? All that blood everywhere?
you are firing on all eight today.lmao

TomZ
05-13-2016, 12:03 PM
Of course not. But more to the point, should older cars with dipsticks be permitted in the carwash with newer cars thats got no dipstick nor no drainplug?!?!?

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?206903-WTF-cars-without-dipsticks!


(http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?206903-WTF-cars-without-dipsticks!)

Shang
05-13-2016, 12:06 PM
geng, I take it that you have never been to Europe, where unisex bathrooms are common, and problems about these are pretty much unheard of.

TomZ
05-13-2016, 12:10 PM
Did you have to lift the hood to check?

I see no way around it. Even if the registration gave such information, the car may have been altered to add or remove one :-)?

Upshur
05-13-2016, 12:12 PM
I live in the country on an old farm with no neighbors, I piss out in my back yard when ever I m out working. Sometimes it is awkward for me to use one of those busy public restrooms. One time at a Red Wings game ..the urinal trough was so packed i could hardly pee. So I guess it’s whatever you get used to.

Peerie Maa
05-13-2016, 01:08 PM
She is transgender. https://www.healthychildren.org/SiteCollectionImages/gendernon_transgender_child.jpg

Is Geng questioning whether she should shower with her class mates or not?

xflow7
05-13-2016, 01:17 PM
I personally know three transgender men who I am very confident no would guess had previously identified as women. Beards, goatees, two of them balding. They've been merrily using men's rooms for years.

I wonder what the reaction would be if they decided to "obey" and use the restrooms that NC says they should be using. My hunch is that those women who supposedly need protecting from people like them would find that situation a lot stranger.

Dave

Keith Wilson
05-13-2016, 01:23 PM
I personally know three transgender men who I am very confident no would guess had previously identified as women. Beards, goatees, two of them balding. They've been merrily using men's rooms for years. I wonder what the reaction would be if they decided to "obey" and use the restrooms that NC says they should be using. My hunch is that those women who supposedly need protecting from people like them would find that situation a lot stranger.
Indeed. I know one, and he'd definitely surprise women if he went into their restroom.

Transgender people go into restrooms for the same reason almost everybody else does; because they need to pee.

LeeG
05-13-2016, 01:28 PM
The obvious solution is no showers for LGBT people. It should be a law!
Also people with genitalia and body shape that is uncommon or similar to the opposite sex should also not use public shower facilities.

LeeG
05-13-2016, 01:30 PM
Indeed. I know one, and he'd definitely surprise women if he went into their restroom.

Transgender people go into restrooms for the same reason almost everybody else does; because they need to pee.

See, that just has to stop. No more peeing.

TomF
05-13-2016, 01:32 PM
The obvious solution is no showers for LGBT people...We'd sniff them out pretty quickly, eh?

Peerie Maa
05-13-2016, 01:36 PM
I am reminded of Eddy Izzard's line: "I must be a lesbian trapped in a man's body."

An entirely appropriate attitude to this dumb topic.

Canoeyawl
05-13-2016, 01:45 PM
Why not 11 year old girls?
(Or should grown men shower with 12 year old boys?)

Who thinks up these questions anyway?

Sheese

LeeG
05-13-2016, 01:49 PM
We'd sniff them out pretty quickly, eh?

Sure seems like the goal, identify the different people. Otherness is threatening.

Peerie Maa
05-13-2016, 01:50 PM
Someone who is very afraid of their own sexuality!
nailed it.

oznabrag
05-13-2016, 01:53 PM
In NC you can use pepper spray... :rolleyes:


North Carolina school system to allow pepper spray


A North Carolina school system has adopted a policy allowing high school students to carry pepper spray this fall, a policy one board member said may be useful for students who encounter transgender classmates in the bathroom.
The Salisbury Post reports (http://bit.ly/1TzmUGY) the policy was adopted by the Rowan-Salisbury Board of Education during a work session on Monday.
Board member Chuck Hughes said using the sprays was purely defensive, and he referenced the North Carolina law that limits LGBT rights, saying such sprays could help female students if they go to the bathroom and don't know who's coming in after them.
The defensive spray clause won't affect students until it's published in the upcoming student handbook.





Potty Party crotch puppies....


I wonder if the intent of the law is to 'allow' folks to assault TG folk entering 'their' bathrooms. Pretty messed up bunch, NC way.

Seems like some kid in NC is gonna get pepper sprayed because (s)he doesn't seem like the other kids.

I will not be surprised when the little barstids keep on spraying until (s)he's dead, either.

Canoeyawl
05-13-2016, 01:54 PM
I think a better question is why are republicans so concerned about bathrooms, genitalia, and sex?

The Genitalia Observation Police...

LeeG
05-13-2016, 01:56 PM
This is so totally nuts

This is the kind of nuts that is unhinged from reality, divisive and destructive. Unlike a state gov't mandate to not recognize global warming the nuts behind this get to target a very small minority for no other purpose than discrimination. Why not go back to outlawing certain sexual practices, cohabitation etc.

ljb5
05-13-2016, 01:59 PM
As I said, I'd be happier with a transgender using a shower in a locker room that Dennis Hastert using the boys locker room.


You can always count on the Catholic Church and the Republican party for keeping us safe from dangers that don't exist, while committing violations themselves.

Keith Wilson
05-13-2016, 02:02 PM
The problem is NOT transgender people preying on anyone in bathrooms or communal showers. The problems is hatred and violence by some members of the majority toward anybody that doesn't fit their idea of how people ought to look or behave.

The vast majority of sexual misconduct is done by heterosexual men.

LeeG
05-13-2016, 02:04 PM
The Genitalia Observation Police...

Here we go


http://media.carbonated.tv/128865_story__saudi-religious-police.jpg

Paul G.
05-13-2016, 02:19 PM
"The lady doth protest too much" Geng is clearly very very interested in 12 year olds, showers and LGBT people. Probably best keep a lid on that one Geng

TomF
05-13-2016, 02:35 PM
...The vast majority of sexual misconduct is done by heterosexual men.Yeah. Who'd want to shower with them, eh?

CK 17
05-13-2016, 03:08 PM
http://s20.postimg.org/57vnchge5/image.jpg

Durnik
05-13-2016, 03:22 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Keith Wilson http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4888007#post4888007)

...The vast majority of sexual misconduct is done by heterosexual men.



As witness (& I'm tickled that one of my adopted state gets it right!) -



Nashville DA: Anti-trans ‘bathroom bills’ are wrong — sex predators are overwhelmingly ‘straight’ men.


http://2d0yaz2jiom3c6vy7e7e5svk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Asst-DA-Chad-Butler-of-Nashville-via-screencap-800x430.png
Nashville, TN Assistant DA Chad Butler (screen capture)

The District Attorney of Nashville, Tennessee said Thursday that anti-trans “bathroom laws” like North Carolina’s are aimed at the wrong people. Sexual predators as a group, he said, are overwhelmingly “heterosexual men.”

Elsewhere (& I can't find the story) a women tells of being spied on in the restroom - by another woman, 'checking' (as if it's any of her business) to see if the stall occupant was the 'proper sex'.

YCMTSU.

bobby

BrianW
05-13-2016, 03:25 PM
Why? Are transgendered people rapists? And when did showers come into this stupid argument?

Where you truly unaware that locker rooms are part of this equation? If so, you don't really have the background information to discuss this topic.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 03:29 PM
Before we worry too much about transgendered women showering with 12-year old girls, let's get something else straight:

How many adults women shower with 12-year old girls?

If the answer is zero, and it better damn sight be, then all that is left is 12-year old transgendered girls showering with 12-year old girls. What's wrong with that?

They don't have women's locker rooms, and girl locker rooms at most gyms, pools, and schools. They have women's locker rooms meant for all females. Like Norman, there's no way you can't know this stuff. If you're not being purposely obtuse, then again like Norman, you're not informed enough to discuss this topic.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 03:34 PM
The vast majority of sexual misconduct is done by heterosexual men.

Against women. So now those perverts need only define themselves (falsely) as transgender, and use the women's locker room.

Brilliant.

TomF
05-13-2016, 03:39 PM
The locker rooms at the local schools, arenas, and the YMCA all have individual change cubicles and shower stalls with locking doors for people's use, in addition to common areas. There's a "family" change area too at the Y, which is for multi-genders and where there's only a collection of such stalls, and no common area. It's not like what it was when I was a teen. I don't think my sons have ever seen the kind of communal showers which were the norm 30 years ago.

I do not anticipate that any transgendered male-to-female person will be changing in a public women's area displaying breasts and male genitalia, nor that any transgendered female-to-male person would be changing in a public men's area displaying a beard and balding head, but female genitalia.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 03:50 PM
Are you unaware that most transgender people don't want to use a locker room if they don't have to?

That's completely not relevant to the topic. The rule changes are directed at those individuals who do want to use the locker rooms. Not those who aren't going to use the locker rooms.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 03:51 PM
Quite frankly I don't see how policy changes by places such as Target help transgender people.

Do transgender females who look like males, and are plumbed like males, want to go into the women's locker room? Like you say, doesn't that make them feel more awkward?

Do transgender females who look like females, but are plumbed like males, want to use the women's locker room? Isn't that awkward in the shower?

Do transgender females that look like men, and are plumbed like men, want to use the men's locker room? That would be most normal.

Do transgender females that look like females, but are plumbed like males, want to use the men's locker room? That would again be awkward.

We could take those four scenarios, and apply them to transgender males, and ask the same questions.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 03:52 PM
I'd be more worried about people like Dennis Hastert using the boys locker room. He's NOT transgender!

Everyone in this discussion agrees with that point Jamie.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 03:54 PM
I do not anticipate that any transgendered male-to-female person will be changing in a public women's area displaying breasts and male genitalia, nor that any transgendered female-to-male person would be changing in a public men's area displaying a beard and balding head, but female genitalia.

I've always assumed that's the way it works now.

Which begs the question... what are we trying to achieve with the recent policy changes?

BrianW
05-13-2016, 03:55 PM
BTW, your local YMCA analogy is nice, but not every place is like that.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 03:59 PM
Brian, it is relevant, conservatives are very afraid of transgenders, this issue is exactly the issue, that it is up to them to profit transgenders. I'd like to know a transgender assaulted anyone in a locker room that makes people, conservatives, consider them a threat.

Trangender people are people, just like regular gender people. They are not immune to being rude, picking their nose, eating a potato chip that just fell on the floor (6 second rule), speeding, lying, loving, being loyal, building wood boats, or committing crimes, including sexual assault.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:05 PM
I'm confused too Jamie. I don't know what the heck the policy changes are suppose to be changing. It doesn't make sense to me. I keep reading from policy change supporters that transgender people don't want attention, but it appears the policy changes will encourage more attention.

Hugh Conway
05-13-2016, 04:08 PM
including sexual assault.

neither are people of the same gender.


If you missed that N. Carolina's law was legalizing sex discrimination maybe you should read more.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:08 PM
I'll tell ya what I do know...

I don't want grown naked men, of any sort, good or bad, in the same locker room with my daughters or wife (in the latter case, I make an exception for myself.)

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:09 PM
neither are people of the same gender.

Completely agree Hugh.

Hugh Conway
05-13-2016, 04:09 PM
I don't want grown naked men, of any sort, good or bad, in the same locker room with my daughters or wife (in the latter case, I make an exception for myself.)

naked people! eeek!

CK 17
05-13-2016, 04:12 PM
If this was a real problem, wouldn't we have heard about real attacks taking place by now?

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:13 PM
naked people! eeek!

In the world today, 'bad words' make college kids run to safe rooms. We've got a long way to go.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:14 PM
If this was a real problem, wouldn't we have heard about real attacks taking place by now?

How would we know? Is 'transgender' a check box in most police reports?

TomF
05-13-2016, 04:17 PM
Brian, I frankly don't "get" the transgendered thing at all, myself. My own gender identity has been so obvious to me all my life that I don't "get" how someone else would have a different experience, and feel "confused." Some feel this mismatch so strongly that they choose to grow breasts, while still having a penis.

My personal incomprehension isn't relevant. Things can be real, but entirely outside my wheelhouse. Compassion means feeling for/with someone, even when their experience really isn't your own.

And from that perspective, I really dunno where a person who urinates with a penis but who took extraordinary steps as an adult to grow breasts would feel "normal" changing, or taking a shower. My first guess would be "by themselves." This is a question that no previous age has ever had to answer, eh? But we've no reason to imagine that a person with desired b-cups and an undesired penis is inclined to pedophilia. Probably just to privacy. Given that starting place, the decent thing to do is find a way for folks experiencing what must simply be horrifying on a daily basis ... to have a less horrifying time of it. To afford an opportunity for their privacy, and to provide it in ways which inadvertently ostracize as little as possible.

Were I the parent of a young child today and a transgendered person like I described actually did prefer to use the public changing area at the YMCA, I frankly dunno how I'd frame a conversation with my son about a person who joined our karate class wearing breast protectors and an athletic cup. Except to say that it's that person's business, that he/she has a right to live their own life the way it makes sense to them so long as nobody else gets hurt. And that he/she has a really good left jab/round kick combination, so watch out during sparring.

t

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:25 PM
But we've no reason to imagine that a person with desired b-cups and an undesired penis is inclined to pedophilia. Probably just to privacy. Given that starting place, the decent thing to do is find a way for folks experiencing what must simply be horrifying on a daily basis ... to have a less horrifying time of it. To afford an opportunity for their privacy, and to provide it in ways which inadvertently ostracize as little as possible.


Which is great, honestly. Everyone, even non-transgender people, should have that opportunity.

Peerie Maa
05-13-2016, 04:30 PM
The White House has spoken : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36286111

Texas and North Carolina's Governors self identify as tw@s

Phillip Allen
05-13-2016, 04:36 PM
a sneaky way to save federal tax money... the new "tricky dick"

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:38 PM
I'm talking about incidents where there is a police report. Newsworthy! It would be written in the body of a police report. maybe not a box to be checked off. The media isn't dumb! The police catch him wearing a dress, you think they wouldn't notice?

They are out there,just like non-transgender people. Google is you friend...

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault


ORONTO, March 4, 2014 (LifeSiteNews.com (http://www.lifesitenews.com)) – A biological man claiming to be ‘transgender’ so as to gain access to and prey on women at two Toronto shelters was jailed “indefinitely” last week after being declared by a judge a “dangerous offender.” Pro-family leaders are pointing out that this is exactly the type of incident they warned of as the Ontario government passed its “gender identity” bill, dubbed the “bathroom bill,” in 2012.
Christopher Hambrook, 37, leaned on the ever expanding legal “rights” offered to people who “identify” with the sex opposite their biology. Under the name “Jessica,” he was able to get into the women’s shelters, where he sexually assaulted several women in 2012, the Toronto Sun reports (http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender).
Court heard how one woman awoke to find Hambrook assaulting her on her bed. “Her tights had been pulled down past her bottom and her bathing suit had been pulled to the side,” court documents reveal. “She yelled at the accused, demanding to know what he was doing. He simply covered his face with his hands, said ‘Oops!’ and started giggling.”
Court also heard evidence of Hambrook terrorizing a deaf woman living in the shelter. “The accused grabbed the complainant’s hand and forcibly placed it on his crotch area while his penis was erect,” court heard.
The same deaf women reported that Hambrook would peer at her through a gap between the door and its frame while she showered.
Justice John McMahon imposed the “indefinite” prison sentence due to Hambrook’s long history of committing sex crimes.
RELATED: Man strips in front of girls in locker room, says transgender law allows it (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/man-strips-in-front-of-girls-in-swimming-pool-locker-says-transgender-law-a)
Hambrook was a former stripper and escort from Quebec before moving to Toronto in 2009 and posing as a woman. While in Montreal he served four years in jail for a 2002 sexual assault of a five-year-old girl who was a family friend and for raping a mentally challenged 27-year-old woman while on bail for the first crime, reports (http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception) the Toronto Sun.
The prosecution successfully convinced the judge that Hambrook’s out-of-control sexual urges put the public at great risk and that an indefinite jail sentence was the only way to protect the public.
“I am satisfied there is no reasonable expectation that a lesser measure would adequately protect the public from Christopher Hambrook,” said Judge McMahon.



I'm not claiming all transgender people are bad, only that they aren't immune to the same evil as all orientations. I only post this so Jamie knows it happens.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:42 PM
The White House has spoken : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36286111

Texas and North Carolina's Governors self identify as tw@s

As silly as it may seem to the EU (which still includes Wales) this may turn out to be a major campaign issue. The American people will want to know where Trump and Clinton stand on this Executive Order, and will vote accordingly.

CWSmith
05-13-2016, 04:44 PM
I don't think a transgender woman with male genitalia would want to use a public women's shower - or a men's one, in fact. It's hard enough living that way without deliberately making it worse.

Actually, a former student of mine (transgendered woman) never used public restrooms. I don't know if she would "pass" now, or not, but what little problem is imagined tends to take care of itself.

TomF
05-13-2016, 04:46 PM
Which is great, honestly. Everyone, even non-transgender people, should have that opportunity.

Agree 100%

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 04:46 PM
Sheesh...

Plenty of retail businesses, shopping malls, service stations, and other establishments have unisex restroom facilities. One simply enters and locks the door.

The showering with 12 year-old girls part of this troll is truly creepy.

Peerie Maa
05-13-2016, 04:48 PM
They are out there,just like non-transgender people. Google is you friend...

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault



I'm not claiming all transgender people are bad, only that they aren't immune to the same evil as all orientations. I only post this so Jamie knows it happens.
What evidence is there that those two are genuinely transgender rather than straight criminal sexual predators?

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:48 PM
Brian explain please!

Many American parents don't want one person, even the President of the United States, dictating the rules for the restrooms in their kids school.

An EO can be easily overturned by a new EO, and as Obama is not getting a third ride, it's up to Trump or Clinton to take a stand on that issue in the campaign.

hokiefan
05-13-2016, 04:50 PM
The fact is that transgendered people have been and already are going into the restroom that makes them the most comfortable. Writing a stupid law about it won't change anything.

Cheers,

Bobby

CWSmith
05-13-2016, 04:51 PM
They don't have women's locker rooms, and girl locker rooms at most gyms, pools, and schools. They have women's locker rooms meant for all females. Like Norman, there's no way you can't know this stuff. If you're not being purposely obtuse, then again like Norman, you're not informed enough to discuss this topic.

I was thinking in terms of schools. As for the snarky bit of your email, I'll just write it off as you having no more to offer.

LeeG
05-13-2016, 04:51 PM
Which begs the question... what are we trying to achieve with the recent policy changes?

We aren't the ones advocating policy changes. A few State politicians in North Carolina want to discriminate against a very small minority so as to reinforce their own political identity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/25/opinion/transgender-law-makes-north-carolina-pioneer-in-bigotry.html?_r=0

By promoting the ludicrous idea that transgender women are inherently dangerous, the law endangers citizens who are already disproportionately vulnerable to violence and stigmatization. Transgender men go largely unmentioned in bathroom bill debates, but that could change. James Parker Sheffield, a transgender man with a beard, exposed the foolishness of the law in a tweet to the governor. “It’s now the law for me to share a restroom with your wife,” he wrote, attaching a photo of himself.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JayShef/status/712845760287494144

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:52 PM
What evidence is there that those two are genuinely transgender rather than straight criminal sexual predators?

I'll give him the same benefit of the doubt, as all transgender identifying people. Jamie asked for a case where it was in the police report, and the press covered it as the same, and I provided it to him.

Now if you want to add more complexity, we can work on it, but a some point it's not worth my time.

Nobody has addressed why we have the policy changes, or addressed my four scenario's above. They aren't combative, they merely ask for an explanation.

Keith Wilson
05-13-2016, 04:52 PM
. . as Obama is not getting a third ride, it's up to Trump or Clinton to take a stand on that issue in the campaign. The administration's action is not a policy change, but a clarification of existing policy in light of the recent NC law. Ms. Clinton's campaign has expressed unqualified support. I agree with her 100%. (link (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/05/13/are-democrats-leaning-into-the-transgender-debate/))

CK 17
05-13-2016, 04:53 PM
How would we know? Is 'transgender' a check box in most police reports?
Now your just being deliberately difficult. If this was areal problem you'd be able to google dozens of attack on children by trans gender people.

Keith Wilson
05-13-2016, 04:54 PM
Attacks on transgender people have been a vastly greater problem than attacks by them.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:54 PM
We aren't the ones advocating policy changes. A few State politicians in North Carolina want to discriminate against a very small minority so as to reinforce their own political identity.

They reacted to a policy change in Charlotte (right or wrong). That Charlotte policy change needs explained. Why did they choose to draw more attention to a group who reportedly seeks less attention?

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:57 PM
Now your just being deliberately difficult. If this was areal problem you'd be able to google dozens of attack on children by trans gender people.

I Googled plenty of them, and provided one. As I was asked. Remember that... I was asked to provide an example. It's not the road I was taking personally. I consider all people, whatever gender, equally susceptible to criminal behavior.

mdh
05-13-2016, 04:57 PM
First of all, transgender is a very small population. Second, it's a mental disorder; very high suicide rate. Thirdly, up till now, they've handled it their own way, without much fanfare. What this president has done is make it easier for the perverts to prey on anybody they desire. That's just his way: something that wasn't a problem before, is now.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:58 PM
Heck, I've looked, I can't find one but, I found a slew on Hastert and Sandusky if that helps.

I provided an example in post #93 Jamie. It's a fast moving thread, I'm sure you just missed it.

CWSmith
05-13-2016, 04:58 PM
Attacks on transgender people have been a vastly greater problem than attacks by them.

Truly one of the greatest understatements in the history of this place!

Peerie Maa
05-13-2016, 04:59 PM
As silly as it may seem to the EU (which still includes Wales) this may turn out to be a major campaign issue. The American people will want to know where Trump and Clinton stand on this Executive Order, and will vote accordingly.
Wales??

Kind of makes me think that the US of A is about 50 years behind the times.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 04:59 PM
Attacks on transgender people have been a vastly greater problem than attacks by them.

That's sadly true. And the new policies at Target and Charlotte do what to protect them?

skuthorp
05-13-2016, 05:00 PM
I wonder if the proposers of this law have private fantasies of their own they feel guilty about? There's certainly precedent for such matters.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 05:02 PM
Wales??

Kind of makes me think that the US of A is about 50 years behind the times.

My apologies.

I mistakenly thought you lived in Wales. Hey, at least I've been to the UK. ;)

Peerie Maa
05-13-2016, 05:02 PM
First of all, transgender is a very small population. Second, it's a mental disorder; very high suicide rate. Thirdly, up till now, they've handled it their own way, without much fanfare. What this president has done is make it easier for the perverts to prey on anybody they desire. That's just his way: something that wasn't a problem before, is now.
No it is not a mental disorder. That alone makes what follows in your post a steaming pile of equine excreta.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 05:04 PM
The laws don't protect them it makes them open season.

No no. Not the laws such as passed by the North Carolina State legislature. I'm talking about the laws meant to help transgender people, such as the one passed in Charlotte, then over-ruled at the state level. How were those policies meant to help transgender people?

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 05:07 PM
How does one enforce a law such as the one enacted in North Carolina?

A person walks into a public restroom, enters a stall, and locks the door. How to determine their sex?

Do we encourage the most paranoid among us to report their suspicions to "the authorities?"

Do we require the presence of restroom attendants who then frisk all people who enter? Do we station Mall cops outside of every public restroom?

What a society we have become.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 05:11 PM
Attacks on transgender people have been a vastly greater problem than attacks by them.
Violence is as American as cherry pie.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 05:12 PM
I must say the "showering with 12 year-old girls" part of this discussion is an uber troll.

Kevin T
05-13-2016, 05:18 PM
Violence is as American as cherry pie.

H. Rap Brown?

Durnik
05-13-2016, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Keith Wilson

The vast majority of sexual misconduct is done by heterosexual men.

Against women. So now those perverts need only define themselves (falsely) as transgender, and use the women's locker room.

Brilliant.

Against children. & the vast majority of all 'abuse' is by a person known, & usually presumed 'safe', to the victim.

but Brian won't see this - I'm on ignore.

bobby

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 05:20 PM
H. Rap Brown?
Yep.

A reprehensible human being who spoke the truth at least that one time.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 05:29 PM
A person walks into a public restroom, enters a stall, and locks the door. How to determine their sex?

Do we require the presence of restroom attendants who then frisk all people who enter? Do we station Mall cops outside of every public restroom?

While I don't suspect you're doing it intentionally, you have way over simplified the issue. Even in Charlotte, the policy changes were not restricted to restrooms...




What about restrooms and changing facilities?

A place of public accommodation may not refuse to provide the full and equal enjoyment of its facilities based on a protected characteristic, such as gender identity and gender expression. Restrooms, locker rooms, and other changing facilities are covered by the ordinance.

The ordinance does NOT require the elimination of separate men’s and women’s facilities, and does not require a business to provide new or special restroom facilities. However, a business may not prohibit a transgender person from using the restroom or locker room consistent with the gender identified or expressed by that person.

The ordinance does not require a business to modify or reconstruct existing men’s and women’s restroom or changing facilities, although it may choose to do so to accommodate the privacy of its customers. Restroom facilities

charmeck.org/city/charlotte/nondiscrimination/PublishingImages/Pages/default/NDO%20FAQ'S-Public%20Accomodations.pdf

If we're to have a open and honest discussion, we have to include the entire spectrum of the rule changes.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 05:29 PM
Imagine walking into a public mens restroom, entering stall, locking the door, conducting your business, unlocking the stall door, washing your hands, and then being confronted by "an authority figure" who demands that you confirm your sex.

Insanity.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 05:33 PM
While I don't suspect you're doing it intentionally, you have way over simplified the issue. Even in Charlotte, the policy changes were not restricted to restrooms...


However, a business may not prohibit a transgender person from using the restroom or locker room consistent with the gender identified or expressed by that person.

If we're to have a open and honest discussion, we have to include the entire spectrum of the rule changes.
Interesting. A link, please.

What does "the gender identified or expressed by that person" mean? Is the "expressed gender" a matter of genetics or of a person's personal identity?

No doubt that question and other details will be hashed out in a court of law.

By the way... I do not think the legal issues raised by the NC law are simple. What I think is simple is the sort of common sense that avoids this sort of nonsensical "controversy."
.

Chip-skiff
05-13-2016, 05:36 PM
Why would anyone in their right mind want to shower with 12-year-old girls? Except other 12-year-old girls.

They are noisy, screechy, and never shut up.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 05:43 PM
Why would anyone in their right mind want to shower with 12-year-old girls? Except other 12-year-old girls.

They are noisy, screechy, and never shut up.
I rack this up as a product of genglandoh's fevered, socially conservative, right-wingnut, tea-party, imagination.

He accomplished his objective. 139 responses and counting....

BrianW
05-13-2016, 05:45 PM
Interesting. A link, please.

I included the link, but as a link to a .pdf file, it didn't turn blue for some reason. Here it is again, you may have to cut and paste it to your browser search window. Let me try again...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwixieOFkNjMAhVIXBQKHUVfBToQFggdMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcharmeck.org%2Fcity%2Fcharlotte%2 Fnondiscrimination%2FPublishingImages%2FPages%2Fde fault%2FNDO%2520FAQ%27S-Public%2520Accomodations.pdf&usg=AFQjCNH4J_kcVh_Fga8kCDudw7TajmXHbA&sig2=-0EMKfpo6qz5nu-uyWOarg






What does "the gender identified or expressed by that person" mean? Is the "expressed gender" a matter of genetics or of a person's personal identity?

Excellent question! I'm going to do another post on "gender expression" as it was written into the Charlotte law.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 05:48 PM
Include what you want Brian, the NC law is just wrong. Cut the cake any way you want. Charlotte isn't the state.

I know that the Charlotte law was overruled. It was a law supporting transgender 'rights' and I refer to it because it was highly popular here and represented what most folks here felt was right. It's a standard to work with in an otherwise diverse field of laws.

oznabrag
05-13-2016, 05:48 PM
If this was a real problem, wouldn't we have heard about real attacks taking place by now?

Just as real as 'voter fraud'.




They are out there,just like non-transgender people. Google is you friend...

I'm not claiming all transgender people are bad, only that they aren't immune to the same evil as all orientations. I only post this so Jamie knows it happens.

What evidence is there that those two are genuinely transgender rather than straight criminal sexual predators?


I would say that the fact they were preying on women is all the evidence you need.



As silly as it may seem to the EU (which still includes Wales) this may turn out to be a major campaign issue. The American people will want to know where Trump and Clinton stand on this Executive Order, and will vote accordingly.

Yes. A great many people will vote for the one who opposes this carp.


Attacks on transgender people have been a vastly greater problem than attacks by them.

Word.


I Googled plenty of them, and provided one. As I was asked. Remember that... I was asked to provide an example. It's not the road I was taking personally. I consider all people, whatever gender, equally susceptible to criminal behavior.

1: Speak for yourself, and 2: A sexual-predator-person who self-identifies as a woman will be VERY unlikely to prey upon women, a sexual-predator-person who self-identifies as a man will be VERY unlikely to prey on a man.


I wonder if the proposers of this law have private fantasies of their own they feel guilty about? There's certainly precedent for such matters.

Oh, I think the GOP, or Genitalia Observation Police (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?206919-Do-you-think-transgender-people-should-be-allowed-to-shower-with-12-year-old-girls&p=4887997#post4887997) (Thanks, Jake!), are a deeply closeted and insecure bunch. Combined with a religious fundamentalism/judgementalism and a visceral fear of . . . basically everything, the ones who really need 'protection' are the trannies.


Imagine walking into a public mens restroom, entering stall, locking the door, conducting your business, unlocking the stall door, washing your hands, and then being confronted by "an authority figure" who demands that you confirm your sex.

Insanity.

[Redacted]

Michael D. Storey
05-13-2016, 05:49 PM
I would like to know if there are any transgender people here. Or gay folk, for that matter. How about Black Guys? The point is that it is indeed their otherness that makes people hate them, try to control them. But, unless you know who 'they' are, you can't do that, see? That's why I ask. people are accepted or rejected on who they vote for or on what they do with their guns, here. Not even sailors or power boaters. Or even oarsmen, even. So what's the deal? Who is afraid of a 12 year old child? Are people afraid that they will 'turn' so-called 'normal' kids?
It has just occurred to me that I should have remembered a saw that I have told the Boys since they were seven or so: You can not combat irrational thought with logic or reason.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 05:52 PM
Imagine walking into a public mens restroom, entering stall, locking the door, conducting your business, unlocking the stall door, washing your hands, and then being confronted by "an authority figure" who demands that you confirm your sex.

Insanity.

You posted the same sentiment twice, and I addressed the fact it's not restricted to restrooms with individual stalls, but the Charlotte law expressly allowed locker rooms also.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 05:53 PM
I know that the Charlotte law was overruled. It was a law supporting transgender 'rights' and I refer to it because it was highly popular here and represented what most folks here felt was right. It's a standard to work with in an otherwise diverse field of laws.
And there is the problem. The state law over rules the city ordinance. We encountered the same problem when the City of Louisville enacted a "Fairness" ordinance prohibiting discrimination in housing, hiring, and public facilities on the basis of sexual orientation.

I am still looking forward to your post on "gender expression" as it was written into the Charlotte law.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 05:54 PM
Why would anyone in their right mind want to shower with 12-year-old girls? Except other 12-year-old girls.

They are noisy, screechy, and never shut up.

Having lived through two teen-aged daughters, I can attest to their lack of cleanliness with their own bathrooms. :D

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 05:57 PM
Having lived through two teen-aged daughters, I can attest to their lack of cleanliness with their own bathrooms. :D
By all accounts that I have heard women are far more nasty in their restroom behavior than men.

A transgender woman would likely be an upgrade in the women's restroom.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 06:04 PM
I am still looking forward to your post on "gender expression" as it was written into the Charlotte law.

Thanks for the reminder.

Okay, as I posted from the FAQ page on the Charlotte law in support of transgender people, they also included 'gender expressed" individuals.


The ordinance does NOT require the elimination of separate men’s and women’s facilities, and does not require a business to provide new or special restroom facilities. However, a business may not prohibit a transgender person from using the restroom or locker room consistent with the gender identified or expressed by that person

According to the APA


Gender expression refers to the “…way in which a person acts to communicate gender within a given culture; for example, in terms of clothing, communication patterns and interests. A person’s gender expression may or may not be consistent with socially prescribed gender roles, and may or may not reflect his or her gender identity” (American Psychological Association, 2008, p. 28).

Gender Expression from the Gender Wiki website...

http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Gender_Expression


Gender expression refers to the way that a person uses appearance, mannerisms and other personal traits to communicate their gender (http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Gender). Gender expression can be any combination of masculine (http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Masculine), feminine (http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Feminine) and androgynous (http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Androgynous) traits.
Unlike sex characteristics (http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Sex_characteristics) which cannot be changed without medical intervention, gender expression usually refers to traits which can be changed voluntarily, at least to some degree. Traits which contribute to gender expression can include clothing and accessories, hairstyle, make-up, removal or growth of body hair, development of musculature through exercise, stance and manner of walking, and manner of talking. The name, pronouns and titles you ask others to use in reference to you may also be considered a part of your gender expression.



Another website on Gender Expression. In this quote, the bold font is not mine. It was made bold by the author.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/separating-identity-expression/


Separating Out Gender Identity from Gender Expression

May 15, 2014 by Wiley Reading (http://everydayfeminism.com/author/wileyr/)



I’ve let my hair grow out so long that I have to put it in pigtails when I ride my bike so it doesn’t get caught in my helmet straps. I’m wearing my girlfriend’s tiny turquoise athletic shorts. My legs are closely shaved, and I’m sitting curled up on the couch with a game of Candy Crush on my phone to my right and a sleeping cat to my left.
I sound like a girl, right?
I’m not.
Why? Because I don’t identify as one.
And although it really is as simple as that, I understand where some people have trouble: “If you express yourself in this way,” they wonder, “then doesn’t that imply that that is how you identify?”
But the truth is, well, no.
Although gender identity and gender expression can be related, the point is that they don’t have to be.
So what’s the difference?
Gender Identity vs Gender Expression

Gender identity is internal.
It is, quite simply, the gender with which you identify. It’s the word (or words) that you could use to decide yourself that simply make sense to you.
Gender identity is whether you’re the lady or the tramp (or neither). It’s the all-encompassing feelings you have about which gender(s) you are or are not. It’s what you would be perceived as if you were able to choose how everyone perceived you.
Gender identity is internal, deeply-rooted, and a central part of many people’s senses of self.
For example, I identify as masculine-of-center (http://genderqueer.tumblr.com/post/1449262331/masculine-of-center-moc-is-a-term-coined-by-b). If I were to say “I am a woman,” it would feel as ridiculous as if I were saying “I am a dinosaur.”
Gender expression, on the other hand, is what everyone around us can see.
Gender expression is the way in which you express your gender.
Sometimes these expressions go along with socially sanctioned ideas of what is appropriate. For example, we live in a society that deems dresses appropriate for women, but not for men. But sometimes they don’t.
You may identify as a woman and dress in a traditionally feminine way. You may identify as a woman and dress in a traditionally masculine way. The point is that the two aren’t necessarily related.
The way that someone expresses their gender is not necessarily a clue as to how they identify their gender.



It appears to me, and I admit I'm new to all of this, that the Charlotte City Counsel was about to mandate 'gender expressing' individuals be allowed into the locker rooms of people they were sexually attracted to, even though they dressed like that sexual orientation.

In fact, it doesn't just appear that way, research shows it to be true.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 06:08 PM
Now if only the North Carolina legislature would overturn the current law and adopt the City of Charlotte ordinance in its stead. And if only the the North Carolina Governor would sign such legislation.

Fat chance.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 06:15 PM
Now if only the North Carolina legislature would overturn the current law and adopt the City of Charlotte ordinance in its stead. And if only the the North Carolina Governor would sign such legislation.


Fat chance.


The Charlotte law would allow, by exact wording, non-transgender people, to use any locker room they want. Those being people who identify as "gender expressing". Those "gender expressing" individuals are likely be heterosexual by definition of the American Psychological Association.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 06:22 PM
You're ramping Brian, I read your post 5 times and it made no sense at all.

It's all about the differnce between those who gender identify as the opposite sex and those that 'gender express' as the opposite sex. According to the experts, those who 'identify' are serious about being the opposite sex, those who 'express' just like to act and dress like the opposite sex.

It's weird for us, but I'm trying to figure it out.

The Charlotte City law allowed for those that merely "express" themselves to go into any locker room they wish. Even though the APA and the LGBT community understand that the 'gender expressing' are not the same as "gender identifiers."

L.W. Baxter
05-13-2016, 06:23 PM
The Puritan heritage of this country still echoes, four centuries later.

I don't mean that only prudes would object to the worst-case hypothetical scenario, but that only people wearing a psychological hairshirt would make it a serious topic of discussion.

john welsford
05-13-2016, 06:23 PM
Given that private toilet stalls are the norm, how do you propose that people find out what body parts the other occupants of a restroom have?

John Welsford



Thank you for understanding my post.
Many have ignored or did not read the section about body parts.

As to enforcement it is simple.
If a person with male body parts is in a women s bathroom, locker room or shower you call the police.
This is what is done today so no change.

If a transgender person has made the full commitment and have changed their body parts then IMHO they are a women and should use women facilities.

CK 17
05-13-2016, 06:29 PM
I Googled plenty of them, and provided one. As I was asked. Remember that... I was asked to provide an example. It's not the road I was taking personally. I consider all people, whatever gender, equally susceptible to criminal behavior.
I just read post 93. What I see is a man dressing as a woman to gain access to woman's facilities in order to commit assault. That is way different than a biological man who identifies as a woman using a facilities intended for females.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 06:35 PM
Brian, it is relevant, conservatives are very afraid of transgenders, this issue is exactly the issue, that it is up to them to profit transgenders. I'd like to know a transgender assaulted anyone in a locker room that makes people, conservatives, consider them a threat.


If this was a real problem, wouldn't we have heard about real attacks taking place by now?


Believe me, we would have learned about it. I've never heard of one!


I'm talking about incidents where there is a police report. Newsworthy! It would be written in the body of a police report. maybe not a box to be checked off. The media isn't dumb! The police catch him wearing a dress, you think they wouldn't notice?


So, how many incidents reported to the police have occurred? The conservatives imply it's in the thousands and a threat. Of course, they can't find evidence to support this but, they don't care.

It's a continues to be a mantra of hate fear and lies.

I quoted and linked to an example. You'll have to go back to post #93 to view it.

Google has plenty of examples. Just check it out.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 06:37 PM
I just read post 93. What I see is a man dressing as a woman to gain access to woman's facilities in order to commit assault. That is way different than a biological man who identifies as a woman using a facilities intended for females.

That's good CK17, except the individual in question identifies as a transgender...


A biological man claiming to be ‘transgender’

I've never said the assaults on women would be by 'transgender' people. Others, and myself, have said that normal gender perverts would use the law to access women's locker rooms.

Thanks for backing up that opinion.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 06:45 PM
Y start thinking about reality, by all means. CK's post is right is right! If someone takes a police uniform and commits a crime are the police responsible!Based on your post, yes!

This?


Originally Posted by CK 17 http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4888292#post4888292) I just read post 93. What I see is a man dressing as a woman to gain access to woman's facilities in order to commit assault. That is way different than a biological man who identifies as a woman using a facilities intended for females.



Except now, or in the Charlotte law example, they don't even have to dress as women, they merely need express themselves as women. Nobody can question their presence, until it's too late.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 06:46 PM
How about people like Sandusky and Hastert having access to little boys rooms Brian? You happy with that?

I know for a fact, I've already addressed that. Please stay civil.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 07:01 PM
I am, try being realistic! And try to put the blame somewhere else which you are doing. Too Trumplike!

Who am I blaming, and for what?

CWSmith
05-13-2016, 07:06 PM
The Puritan heritage of this country still echoes, four centuries later.

I'm not at all sure this is Puritan in the usual sense. It's more like scapegoating. It's like the Salem witch hunts - blame anyone for anything out of ignorant fear.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 07:09 PM
I have seen women enter and use a public men's restroom when the women's restroom was full. And vice versa.

Political ideology is clearly trumping common sense.

CK 17
05-13-2016, 07:10 PM
That's good CK17, except the individual in question identifies as a transgender...



I've never said the assaults on women would be by 'transgender' people. Others, and myself, have said that normal gender perverts would use the law to access women's locker rooms.

Thanks for backing up that opinion.

With all due respect, I see a difference between a "man claiming to be" which sounds like a defense, and " identifies as transgender".

L.W. Baxter
05-13-2016, 07:11 PM
I'm not at all sure this is Puritan in the usual sense. It's more like scapegoating. It's like the Salem witch hunts - blame anyone for anything out of ignorant fear.

Um. Weren't them people in Salem, Puritans?

Prudery, bigotry, scapegoating...it's all part of the same psychological package.

Captain Intrepid
05-13-2016, 07:31 PM
I'll tell ya what I do know...

I don't want grown naked men, of any sort, good or bad, in the same locker room with my daughters or wife (in the latter case, I make an exception for myself.)

Then forcing trans men to use the women's facilities is probably not what you want.

seanz
05-13-2016, 07:35 PM
I don't think toddlers should have access to handguns.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 07:38 PM
What is with the thread drift?

Let's get back to transgendered people showering with 12 year-old girls.

seanz
05-13-2016, 07:40 PM
It's not thread drift. Honest. Is it going to kill the 12 year old or the transgender person? No? Why are you worrying about this when toddlers can shoot you?

CWSmith
05-13-2016, 07:41 PM
Um. Weren't them people in Salem, Puritans?

Prudery, bigotry, scapegoating...it's all part of the same psychological package.

There is a strong thread of morality that flows through discussions of transsexuals. I was simply trying to point out that the customary use of the reference to being Puritanical was, in this case, having nothing to do with true morality.

Also, do you say things like, "Weren't them people..." when you are in public, or is that reserved for the anonymity of The Bilge?

xflow7
05-13-2016, 07:48 PM
That's good CK17, except the individual in question identifies as a transgender...


I've never said the assaults on women would be by 'transgender' people. Others, and myself, have said that normal gender perverts would use the law to access women's locker rooms.

Thanks for backing up that opinion.

I get that people have a concern that if rights are explicitly granted to transgender women to use the women's room, they could be exploited by men who are not transgender, but who make themselves appear as women to gain (legal) access to the women's room. I really do.

But what I don't get is the implication that risk of assault in that scenario is so much higher than the risk of assault in the myriad other circumstances that men assault women EVERY DAY that it justifies undermining the freedom of identity of a not-insignificant population of people.

Public restrooms are still public, after all. For someone intent on getting a woman isolated for purposes of assaulting her, the canonical public-park-after-dark, her office, your office, etc. would seem much better choices anyway.

Dave

BrianW
05-13-2016, 08:10 PM
I am, try being realistic! And try to put the blame somewhere else which you are doing. Too Trumplike! I thought more of you than you are determined to post regardless.


Who am I blaming, and for what?


You sound like Pa, who me? Are you from the hills of Arkansas or what?

One more time... Who am I blaming, and for what? You're making an accusation of blame, but not being specific.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 08:16 PM
With all due respect, I see a difference between a "man claiming to be" which sounds like a defense, and " identifies as transgender".

In all fairness, this difficulty differentiation is a result of those who wish to liberalize the locker room to all who identify as whatever sex they want, and not those who wish to keep it more defined.

Therefore, it's your responsibility to positively differentiate between the two, not mine.

BrianW
05-13-2016, 08:35 PM
Just to be clear...

The Charlotte law in support of transgender persons also included 'gender expressing' person. I linked that to a specific FAQ website for the Charlotte ruling.

Then I linked to multiple websites, including the American Psychological Association which state definitively that that 'gender expressing' people are not the same as 'gender identifying" people. In other words, they just like to dress like women, but are heterosexual.

Which means the Charlotte law would allow heterosexual males to shower with your daughter and wives, and you people are defending that stance.

Then when asked for proof that there were cases of transgender people committing sexual assaults, I did so, but that was basically ignored.

So far I've supplied every bit of information asked for by those who may disagree, but haven't seen a single bit of information to offset my opinion.

I can't be persuaded by mere chatter. Until someone can dispute what I've researched and shared with quality links, I'm done with the banter. It's clear the Charlotte law went to far, and while I can't agree in total with the States reaction, the fine folks of Charlotte made it too easy to override.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 08:39 PM
Yanno, I would give a rip if the City of Charlotte ordinance was the law in North Carolina or anywhere else.

It isn't. For good reason, evidently.

A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Why don't we give up that dead end and return to discussion of North Carolina House Bill 2? And transgender people showering with 12 year-old girls.

CWSmith
05-13-2016, 08:53 PM
Yanno, I would give a rip if the City of Charlotte ordinance was the law in North Carolina or anywhere else.

Maybe, and good if you're right.



The Obama administration told public schools across the U.S. on Friday to let transgender students use the bathrooms and locker rooms that match their gender identity.

The directive from the U.S. Justice and Education Departments represents an escalation in the fast-moving dispute over what is becoming the civil rights issue of the day.

“This is the most outrageous example yet of the Obama administration forcing its liberal agenda on states that roundly reject it,” said Mississippi Republican Gov. Phil Bryant.


I have deleted parts in the above quote.

Texas has responded, or at least their Lt. Governor:

“We will not be blackmailed by the president’s 30 pieces of silver,” Republican Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick said.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/official-texas-forego-federal-funds-over-lgbt-policy-152404674.html

I'm trying to find out how much money we're really talking about, but I have not been able so far. Patrick refers to "billions", but I don't know if that's accurate.

I don't think this is just one city.

Tom Montgomery
05-13-2016, 09:00 PM
Maybe, and good if you're right.

The Obama administration told public schools across the U.S. on Friday to let transgender students use the bathrooms and locker rooms that match their gender identity.

The directive from the U.S. Justice and Education Departments represents an escalation in the fast-moving dispute over what is becoming the civil rights issue of the day.

“This is the most outrageous example yet of the Obama administration forcing its liberal agenda on states that roundly reject it,” said Mississippi Republican Gov. Phil Bryant.The US government is concerned about discrimination on the basis of gender identity.

BrianW is concerned about gender expression as defined by the APA and the defunct City of Charlotte ordinance.

Apples and oranges.

CWSmith
05-13-2016, 09:13 PM
The US government is concerned about discrimination on the basis of gender identity.

BrianW is concerned about gender expression as defined by the APA and the defunct City of Charlotte ordinance.

Apples and oranges.

Probably. Possibly. It's the kind of distinction that greases the wheels for the next step. This is an attempt to create a boogieman hypothetical to engender fear toward a minority of people who are struggling to find themselves and find acceptance in society. It's really no different from the "gays rape young boys" argument used to prevent the gay community from living a normal life in society.

Phillip Allen
05-13-2016, 09:39 PM
so, should transgender claimants be allowed to shower with young girls? that was the question. what proofs would be invoked and how about what the young girls have to say about it??? whose rights are being infringed, if any?

Chip-skiff
05-13-2016, 10:15 PM
It seems like the Republican "moralists" are seething with lewd fantasies about prepubescent girls. Boys too.

So, based on experience (and convictions), we should ban all Catholic priests, coaches, and members of Congress from using any restroom anywhere, at any time.

Do you want your daughter molested by a fat old guy in a blue suit? Who knows were they'll strike next?

Canoeyawl
05-13-2016, 10:20 PM
Where are the GOP when we need them?

A survey of over 6,000 transgender Americans found that 20 percent — that’s one in five — had served in the military. That’s more than twice the percentage of the general population"

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/transgender-soldiers-gain-ground-as-u-s-military-transitions/

Vince Brennan
05-13-2016, 10:45 PM
<snip>

So, based on experience (and convictions), we should ban all Catholic priests, coaches, and members of Congress from using any restroom anywhere, at any time. <snip>

Sounds like a plan to me.

Canoeyawl
05-14-2016, 12:08 AM
https://joyerickson.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/mr-potoato-head.jpg

genglandoh
05-14-2016, 08:59 AM
Not according to the North Carolina law. Once a man, always a man. Even after you cut the man-bits off and take hormones to grow breasts.

Thank you for pointing out that my position is different than the NC Law.
The NC law is looking at the birth certificate and I think that is wrong.
I think it should be as it is today based on the body parts that you have.

So really nothing would change.
People with men's parts use the men's facilities.
People with women's parts use the women's facilities.

Keith Wilson
05-14-2016, 09:12 AM
Even the bathroom portion of the odious NC law is addressing an imaginary problem that simply doesn't exist. (The rest of it is even worse, but that's another subject). Transgender people have a very hard time of it, and almost always want nothing so much as to NOT call attention to themselves, to just be left alone to live their lives as best they can and pee without hassles. The only reason for this law is prejudice and hate by 'normal' people. The law was passed in a special 12-hour legislative session without research, without a decent interval to read and think about it, without anyone ever consulting transgender folks to see how they think. This is not an attempt to solve a real problem with legislation; it is is writing hatred and religiously-based prejudice into law; the very worst of modern conservatism.

Peerie Maa
05-14-2016, 12:11 PM
So really nothing would change.
People with men's parts use the men's facilities.
People with women's parts use the women's facilities.
What about this person, was a woman, is now a man? Has he any dangly bits for you to inspect?
http://cdn.lolwot.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/10-amazing-before-and-after-transgender-transformations-10.jpg

Vince Brennan
05-14-2016, 01:37 PM
I dunno if Republicans are allowed to use those things, JoP. If they only made them in Red ...Of course they can't! However would you get the toe of your shoe into the "neighbouring stall"?

CWSmith
05-14-2016, 01:46 PM
Thank you for pointing out that my position is different than the NC Law.
The NC law is looking at the birth certificate and I think that is wrong.
I think it should be as it is today based on the body parts that you have.

So really nothing would change.
People with men's parts use the men's facilities.
People with women's parts use the women's facilities.


I think that most people will agree that this is a responsible solution.

Then again, hang some doors on the stalls and no one really cares.

john welsford
05-14-2016, 01:48 PM
Here is whats happening in New Zealand, clip from our on line local newspaper below. As well, most new builds of public buildings have unisex restrooms, they have one restroom with a bank of handbasins and mirrors with a row of private toilet stalls behind. How has it been accepted? No comments, no criticism, I'd think that if you were to ask people would be puzzled as to why you were asking.
The question I'd ask, is why is it an issue elsewhere?

John Welsford
Clip,
Cherie Howie Cherie Howie is a reporter for the Herald on Sunday.
School installs toilet for transgender pupil, aged 6

A popular Auckland primary school has been praised for installing a unisex toilet to help a 6-year-old transgender pupil feel safe and accepted.

The toilet was installed earlier this year with the support of the Board of Trustees and the Education Ministry after the child's transition from boy to girl.

The Herald on Sunday has chosen not to name the school to protect the child's privacy. Sources said that school-mates have happily accepted the child's transition and parents who know the girl have also been supportive.

The school's board chairman said their decision was about supporting a pupil. "We have a policy of safety around identity and culture, and that includes gender. We feel strongly that every child deserves to feel safe in the school environment."

Other parents were not told, just as they would not be told about other measures taken to support a child, he said.


"I believe our parent community supports diversity [anyway]. It's a child who identifies as a different gender than the one they were born with.

"There's nothing scary about that, there's nothing unusual about that. It's been happening since the beginning of human kind. We are just more aware of it now, and we're making sure [those transitioning] are safe.

"I'm proud to be part of a school that says 'it's okay to be who you are and we are going to make sure you get the best education, without worrying about anything else'."

Duncan Matthews from Rainbow Youth applauded the school.

"It is awesome the school has taken active steps helping those people who wouldn't feel comfortable using a gender-specific bathroom," he said.

"It is great this school is leading the way to show other schools the sky doesn't fall down if you have a gender-neutral or unisex bathroom."

A recent youth survey revealed 1.2 per cent of New Zealand school-aged children identified as transgender - more than 3000 in Auckland and more than 9000 nationwide.

It is not known how many primary-age children are transgender and the ministry said it did not keep such figures.

A research project in America in 2014 stated children become aware of their gender identity by age 3 to 5, and a report in the UK yesterday said children as young as 3 were being treated at gender transition clinics.

Matthews said the dilemma of which bathroom to use was huge for transgender children.

An increasing number of parents were seeking support and advice for their young transgender children, Matthews said. He fielded about two calls a month from parents struggling because their school wasn't supportive. Issues included gender-specific uniforms or teachers unsupportive with name changes.

"Some children leave that school and start at a new school with their preferred identity, especially if the previous school is not supportive."

Katrina Casey from the Ministry of Education said unisex bathrooms were becoming common at schools and there were no separate boys and girls toilets in new builds.

"Our standard design is for individual self-contained bathrooms that can be used by either gender," she said.

Casey said unisex toilets made good sense as "they're versatile."

Last year the ministry revised sexuality education guidelines which included the suggestion of gender-neutral uniforms and a review of toilet spaces.

Earlier this year, two Wellington secondary schools decided to fit gender-neutral bathrooms for students who felt uncomfortable using "male" or "female" bathrooms.

Wellington High School has already transformed its boys' bathroom into gender-neutral facilities and Onslow College is about to do the same, spending thousands of dollars to convert an old block of girls' toilets.

S.V. Airlie
05-14-2016, 01:54 PM
John, good article and NO ONE WAS HURT by this decision.

john welsford
05-14-2016, 02:01 PM
Thanks SV, Yep, note the quote from the Ministry of Education on new schools, the policy of gender neutral restrooms saves around 5% of taxpayers money on new school builds, same with public buildings, our local library being one example, the kids are happy, there is more money for other things, win all round.

Like I said, I cant think why it would be an issue.

John Welsford




John, good article and NO ONE WAS HURT by this decision.

CWSmith
05-14-2016, 02:09 PM
I really do not know why large communal showers are so common in the US. In Australia, in the one school that I visited, each shower was a stall. There was an outer "room" for each stall where you could sit, undress, hang your clothes, then an interior room with the shower. There were 2 doors. Everyone had privacy. It was coed. It made perfect sense. None of this would be an issue if people had a simple bit of privacy in their shower.

Nicholas Scheuer
05-14-2016, 03:28 PM
OK, let's say I say "yes". How many 12 y'r olds does that put at "risk" each day? 12'y'r olds are in more danger of preying perverts in public washrooms, not trahs-gender folks.

BrianW
05-14-2016, 04:24 PM
I really do not know why large communal showers are so common in the US. In Australia, in the one school that I visited, each shower was a stall. There was an outer "room" for each stall where you could sit, undress, hang your clothes, then an interior room with the shower. There were 2 doors. Everyone had privacy. It was coed. It made perfect sense. None of this would be an issue if people had a simple bit of privacy in their shower.

I've noticed in many countries, bathroom stalls are designed with much more privacy than in the US.

Shang however mentions the unisex facilities in Europe. While the concept doesn't bother me, I never experienced it. In any case, it's a cultural thing for sure.

The problem is that many places can't afford, nor have the room for expanded facilities. When I read suggestions from some about 'just use the private bathroom' I can only assume they live a rather sheltered lifestyle, where private bathrooms and locker room facilities are commonplace. Unfortunately, we don't all live in their world.

Peerie Maa
05-14-2016, 04:33 PM
I've noticed in many countries, bathroom stalls are designed with much more privacy than in the US.

Shang however mentions the unisex facilities in Europe. While the concept doesn't bother me, I never experienced it. In any case, it's a cultural thing for sure.

The problem is that many places can't afford, nor have the room for expanded facilities. When I read suggestions from some about 'just use the private bathroom' I can only assume they live a rather sheltered lifestyle, where private bathrooms and locker room facilities are commonplace. Unfortunately, we don't all live in their world.
If a country like Oz or NZ can do it surely the US of A can afford to?

CWSmith
05-14-2016, 04:37 PM
I've noticed in many countries, bathroom stalls are designed with much more privacy than in the US.

I really don't understand why we are so primitive on this. The dorm I stayed in when I visited Australia was a coed dorm, and a coed bathroom, and a comfortably private shower. Why are our kids not entitled to that?

Sky Blue
05-14-2016, 04:45 PM
https://youtu.be/tg-MAMvkplE

john welsford
05-14-2016, 05:45 PM
A point inherent in my post, is that one large gender neutral restroom is much cheaper, and occupies less space than two segregated ones.

John Welsford



I've noticed in many countries, bathroom stalls are designed with much more privacy than in the US.

Shang however mentions the unisex facilities in Europe. While the concept doesn't bother me, I never experienced it. In any case, it's a cultural thing for sure.

The problem is that many places can't afford, nor have the room for expanded facilities. When I read suggestions from some about 'just use the private bathroom' I can only assume they live a rather sheltered lifestyle, where private bathrooms and locker room facilities are commonplace. Unfortunately, we don't all live in their world.

Daniel Noyes
05-14-2016, 05:48 PM
If a country like Oz or NZ can do it surely the US of A can afford to?

With all that is wrong with our school systems (and there is dozens of 100page threads worth wrong)... Why Is the Obama Admin spending so much time and energy and political capital and money on this issue???

S.V. Airlie
05-14-2016, 05:50 PM
Gee, I don't know!:(

ccmanuals
05-14-2016, 05:51 PM
With all that is wrong with our school systems (and there is dozens of 100page threads worth wrong)... Why Is the Obama Admin spending so much time and energy and political capital and money on this issue???

I'm thinking because it's the right thing to do.

Why are red states passing bathroom laws when clearly they are not needed?

CWSmith
05-14-2016, 05:53 PM
I'm thinking because it's the right thing to do.

And they are not spending time and money. They are simply saying they will cut funding to school districts that violate the rights of citizens.

Daniel Noyes
05-14-2016, 06:03 PM
And they are not spending time and money. They are simply saying they will cut funding to school districts that violate the rights of citizens.

They sent out hard copies of their NEW agenda to every school district in the nation! meetings, policy reviews at the state district and local levels, re-labeling bathrooms, law suits... etc. If you think the goverments actions are not going to have a huge cost your mistaken.

The Obama Admin has gone off the deep end, of all the things that need FIXING in our broken schools this is a waste of taxpayer money.

Daniel Noyes
05-14-2016, 06:04 PM
I'm thinking because it's the right thing to do.

Why are red states passing bathroom laws when clearly they are not needed?

the real reason... The DEMS are running SCARED, they are terrified by the coalition Trumpy is putting together! :)

This is a Wedge Issue cleverly deployed by the Obama Admin, they know Trump is gaining momentum and are desperate to keep the OLIGARCHS and Wealthiest 1 Percent in power... the ESTABLISHMENT must prevail! They see that Trump has conservative Christians and very Liberal working class voters in his coalition and the Democrats are seeking to drive a wedge and dis-unify the coalition...

BrianW
05-14-2016, 06:04 PM
I'm thinking because it's the right thing to do.

Why are red states passing bathroom laws when clearly they are not needed?

Why did Charlotte and Target change there policies, if they weren't need?

CWSmith
05-14-2016, 06:06 PM
They sent out hard copies of their NEW agenda to every school district in the nation! meetings, policy reviews at the state district and local levels, re-labeling bathrooms, law suits... etc. If you think the goverments actions are not going to have a huge cost your mistaken.

The Obama Admin has gone off the deep end, of all the things that need FIXING in our broken schools this is a waste of taxpayer money.

So, one lawyer (maybe) put together a statement that took a few hours once tasked, a secretary made copies, and stamps were bought.

We spend more than that prosecuting a simple car accident without fatalities.

Chip-skiff
05-14-2016, 06:07 PM
Despite all the right-wing hysteria over public toilets and showers, young people are most often preyed on at school, at church, or at home, by people they've been taught to trust.

BrianW
05-14-2016, 06:13 PM
Despite all the right-wing hysteria over public toilets and showers, young people are most often preyed on at school, at church, or at home, by people they've been taught to trust.

A school, like most American schools, with locker rooms. Okay.

Durnik
05-14-2016, 06:44 PM
^just like the 2nd amendmenters miss the "well regulated milita" part, you slipped over the " by people they've been taught to trust." part.

bobby

Daniel Noyes
05-14-2016, 07:12 PM
Despite all the right-wing hysteria over public toilets and showers, young people are most often preyed on at school, at church, or at home, by people they've been taught to trust.

at Church... by MEN who are attracted to men/ BOYS?

hey Dude! ... What's your POINT?

Boatfix
05-14-2016, 07:49 PM
Thank you for pointing out that my position is different than the NC Law.
The NC law is looking at the birth certificate and I think that is wrong.
I think it should be as it is today based on the body parts that you have.

So really nothing would change.
People with men's parts use the men's facilities.
People with women's parts use the women's facilities.


How about approx 3 minutes of clarity for the progressive's lack of logic on this issue. Don't bother to comment if you don't watch the short video.

https://youtu.be/D1tF0LHG3jE

https://youtu.be/D1tF0LHG3jE

CK 17
05-14-2016, 08:19 PM
How many here have worked with a transgender person? I've worked with 2 that I know of. They've always used the bathroom for the gender they've identified with. It's never been a problem. Anyone else with real life experiences they can share?

CWSmith
05-14-2016, 08:25 PM
How many here have worked with a transgender person? I've worked with 2 that I know of. They've always used the bathroom for the gender they've identified with. It's never been a problem. Anyone else with real life experiences they can share?

One. She did not use a public rest room. She should have been able. She should have felt welcome and safe to do so.

Boatfix
05-14-2016, 08:33 PM
Good link above Sky Blue. it would be nice if some here would watch it. I posted another shorter one with a very concise take on the perspective of the lawmakers of North Carolina. It looks like this issue will be around for quite a while as this time the Obama administration has really stepped in it.

The following debate by two attorneys clearly defines the issue.


https://youtu.be/9hyUIT4SE_Q

oznabrag
05-14-2016, 09:31 PM
I really don't understand why we are so primitive on this. The dorm I stayed in when I visited Australia was a coed dorm, and a coed bathroom, and a comfortably private shower. Why are our kids not entitled to that?

Because JEBUS!

oznabrag
05-14-2016, 09:36 PM
How about approx 3 minutes of clarity for the progressive's lack of logic on this issue. Don't bother to comment if you don't watch the short video.


How about a little clarity for the RF regressives:

1. Transgendered people are people.

2. A trans woman isn't interested in women, sexually.

3. A trans man isn't interested in men, sexually.

4. If you're not some sort of pervert, peeking in the stall, you would never know the guy in the next stall was born a woman.

5. Stop being such a bunch of perverts.

That is all.

Sky Blue
05-14-2016, 09:36 PM
they won't watch it

Of course they won't. They won't comment on it either. Doing so would force them to confront the depth of their own hate and bigotry. Haters don't like complexity.

It's in the record. Those commenting here aren't the only only persons following the thread. People can come to their own conclusions.

oznabrag
05-14-2016, 09:37 PM
Of course they won't. They won't comment on it either. Doing so would force them to confront the depth of their own hate and bigotry. Haters don't like complexity.

It's in the record. Those commenting here aren't the only only persons following the thread. People can come to their own conclusions.

Virtue slinging once again.

Ian McColgin
05-14-2016, 09:43 PM
"2. A trans woman isn't interested in women, sexually." [#184]

There's quite a bit of diversity. I have two friends who are fully transexual - all operations and reconstructions done - who are lesbians. Interestingly, not all "natural born" lesbians accept them. Anyway, whatever else is going on, I'm not aware of any transexuals at any stage along the way who are a menace to young girls or boys. These are not people who bugger or bother children.

CWSmith
05-14-2016, 09:47 PM
Virtue slinging once again.

Don't you know that if we don't watch and "understand" the sources they accept, then we are not entitled to opinions. We may have trans friends, coworkers, family members, but SB and his friends get to define who is well-informed.

CWSmith
05-14-2016, 09:49 PM
Interestingly, not all "natural born" lesbians accept them.

There are a lot of strong divisions in the gay, lesbian, etc community. I figure some things cannot be fixed from the outside.

oznabrag
05-14-2016, 09:52 PM
"2. A trans woman isn't interested in women, sexually." [#184]

There's quite a bit of diversity. I have two friends who are fully transexual - all operations and reconstructions done - who are lesbians. Interestingly, not all "natural born" lesbians accept them. Anyway, whatever else is going on, I'm not aware of any transexuals at any stage along the way who are a menace to young girls or boys. These are not people who bugger or bother children.

Well, I learned something, today.

Thanks!

ccmanuals
05-14-2016, 10:16 PM
Why did Charlotte and Target change there policies, if they weren't need?

That is a great question.

Boatfix
05-14-2016, 10:37 PM
How about a little clarity for the RF regressives:

1. Transgendered people are people.

2. A trans woman isn't interested in women, sexually.

3. A trans man isn't interested in men, sexually.

4. If you're not some sort of pervert, peeking in the stall, you would never know the guy in the next stall was born a woman.

5. Stop being such a bunch of perverts.

That is all.

Why not deal with the obvious points that all people have the right to their privacy and safety in the bathroom or shower? If you fail to even consider that "would be predators" will most certainly take advantage of this current DOJ proclamation (thus seriously infringing on woman and children's rights to privacy and safety) then you are simply blinded by ideology and political correctness. I doubt you watched any of the three videos above.

Sky Blue
05-14-2016, 10:53 PM
Why not deal with the obvious points that all people have the right to their privacy and safety in the bathroom or shower?

Privacy rights (especially for children) is the real issue here, not predation. This is inconvenient for the agenda, so it won't be addressed. So you'll need to.

oznabrag
05-14-2016, 11:13 PM
Why not deal with the obvious points that all people have the right to their privacy and safety in the bathroom or shower?

Why don't you deal with that?

Do you think this transgender woman would be 'safe' in a public men's bathroom?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/30/15/2DF1BFC800000578-3296958-image-m-122_1446217511560.jpg

oznabrag
05-14-2016, 11:14 PM
What about her?


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7e/05/4e/7e054ea9dc5bf53ed29fe5a0c70683fd.jpg

oznabrag
05-14-2016, 11:16 PM
What about this one?

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jenna1-e1332764727228.jpg?w=700

Canoeyawl
05-14-2016, 11:50 PM
http://cdn.lolwot.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/10-amazing-before-and-after-transgender-transformations-10.jpg[

Let's see, this woman is just fine in the shower with your 12 year old daughter, that's what you are saying right?

Boatfix
05-14-2016, 11:53 PM
Sky Blue;4889224]Privacy rights (especially for children) is the real issue here, not predation. This is inconvenient for the agenda, so it won't be addressed. So you'll need to.
That was and is the main point. The video links above certainly focus on this; privacy and safety and the right to feel secure and "comfortable" in such places for children along with their parent's peace of mind. This right to feel safe in a private area for children and women will be the main driving force in battling this oppression by the Federal Government. The Obama administration has over-reached again misinterpreting the law. Gender is a part of the non-discrimination law, not gender identity.

Oznabrag: Posting three photos of relatively attractive transsexuals is lame and of course only represents a minuscule percentage of our population. You miss the issue completely. The point is not that transsexuals will become or are pedifiles. The point is that any man can say he "feels like a woman" and enter the women's bathrooms, showers, etc. Don't ya think predators will take advantage of this type of change in the law? How will such a law affect the peace of mind and perceived safety of the tens of thousands of female victims of sexual assault across the land. Did you watch the first video on this issue above with many such victims interviewed?

oznabrag
05-15-2016, 12:59 AM
Sky Blue;4889224]Privacy rights (especially for children) is the real issue here, not predation.





That was and is the main point. . .

OK. So, you send your minor children to the bathroom by themselves in public restrooms?


Oznabrag: Posting three photos of relatively attractive transsexuals is lame and of course only represents a minuscule percentage of our population. You miss the issue completely. The point is not that transsexuals will become or are pedifiles. The point is that any man can say he "feels like a woman" and enter the women's bathrooms, showers, etc. Don't ya think predators will take advantage of this type of change in the law? How will such a law affect the peace of mind and perceived safety of the tens of thousands of female victims of sexual assault across the land. Did you watch the first video on this issue above with many such victims interviewed?

Absolute, unadulterated stuff and nonsense.

Pretty much anybody can enter pretty much any freakin' room they want to. Public, private, military or corporate.

They don't have to say they feel like a woman, they don't have to say diddly. They just have to want to badly enough to make the personal sacrifice necessary to git 'er done.

Do you REALLY think that such a predator wouldn't be arrested?

Really? REALLY? REALLY????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ROFLMAO!!!

Man, I can see it now!

" Gee, officer, I felt like a woman, so I came in here to whack my weenie!"

You guys crack me up!

john welsford
05-15-2016, 03:39 AM
Yes, one that I know of, nice person, very shy but once accepted on a friendly basis very pleasant. No risk to anyone. Same, used the ladies restoom whenever needed. No complaints, no issues.

John Welsford


How many here have worked with a transgender person? I've worked with 2 that I know of. They've always used the bathroom for the gender they've identified with. It's never been a problem. Anyone else with real life experiences they can share?

Daniel Noyes
05-15-2016, 07:04 AM
That was and is the main point. The video links above certainly focus on this; privacy and safety and the right to feel secure and "comfortable" in such places for children along with their parent's peace of mind. This right to feel safe in a private area for children and women will be the main driving force in battling this oppression by the Federal Government. The Obama administration has over-reached again misinterpreting the law. Gender is a part of the non-discrimination law, not gender identity.

Oznabrag: Posting three photos of relatively attractive transsexuals is lame and of course only represents a minuscule percentage of our population. You miss the issue completely. The point is not that transsexuals will become or are pedifiles. The point is that any man can say he "feels like a woman" and enter the women's bathrooms, showers, etc. Don't ya think predators will take advantage of this type of change in the law? How will such a law affect the peace of mind and perceived safety of the tens of thousands of female victims of sexual assault across the land. Did you watch the first video on this issue above with many such victims interviewed?

Hey boat, any idea how these brand new adgendas and laws being dictated by the Obama admin affect androgynous, bisexual, or neuter folks? could an androgynous person use both bathrooms in the course of a visit to the local YWCA, Chuck Cheeses or Movie Thearter?

"Hello little girl, after you Dear!"

http://windupmyskirt.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/marilyn_manson-2.jpg

S.V. Airlie
05-15-2016, 07:56 AM
You are welcome to have people like Dennis Hastert in your son't boys locker room Daniel. I'm sure you would feel safe and have peace of mind! Oh right, Hastert is not transgender.

genglandoh
05-15-2016, 12:57 PM
Here is an example of what can and did happen.
A man dressed as a man goes into the women’s locker room and takes his clothes off.
After swimming he does it again, this time when a young girl’s swim team is getting changed.
He defends his action saying that he has the law on his side.

It is amazing the some on this forum will try to argue that this will not happen.

Title: Seattle man tests transgender rule by undressing in women's locker room
No one was arrested in this case and police weren't called, even though the man returned a second time while young girls were changing for swim practice.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/02/17/transgender-rule-washington-state-man-undresses-locker-room/80501904/

ccmanuals
05-15-2016, 01:01 PM
That was and is the main point. The video links above certainly focus on this; privacy and safety and the right to feel secure and "comfortable" in such places for children along with their parent's peace of mind. This right to feel safe in a private area for children and women will be the main driving force in battling this oppression by the Federal Government. The Obama administration has over-reached again misinterpreting the law. Gender is a part of the non-discrimination law, not gender identity.

Oznabrag: Posting three photos of relatively attractive transsexuals is lame and of course only represents a minuscule percentage of our population. You miss the issue completely. The point is not that transsexuals will become or are pedifiles. The point is that any man can say he "feels like a woman" and enter the women's bathrooms, showers, etc. Don't ya think predators will take advantage of this type of change in the law? How will such a law affect the peace of mind and perceived safety of the tens of thousands of female victims of sexual assault across the land. Did you watch the first video on this issue above with many such victims interviewed?

You are a piss poor parent if you let your children go into a public restroom without being accompanied by an adult.

CWSmith
05-15-2016, 01:06 PM
I can't say that the law is not poorly written, but if the intent is to allow people to live a consistent life then that consistency can be tested. A man chasing little girls who puts on a dress for a single purpose will not avoid prosecution once this gets worked out. I think we can all agree that won't become a regular occurrence.

LeeG
05-15-2016, 01:47 PM
Muslims, LGBT, it's an invasion coming to Ohio!

genglandoh
05-15-2016, 01:47 PM
You are a piss poor parent if you let your children go into a public restroom without being accompanied by an adult.

So a Father takes his daughter to a public swimming pool and you want the Father to enter the locker room to protect her from perverts.

S.V. Airlie
05-15-2016, 01:51 PM
So, you're saying Transgenders are perverts geng? Hey, wasn't Dennis Hastert a pervert? I think so. He goes into boys locker rooms, nothing stopped. This law certainly won't, you really are saying Transgendered people are perverts.

ccmanuals
05-15-2016, 01:51 PM
So a Father takes his daughter to a public swimming pool and you want the Father to enter the locker room to protect her from perverts.

I don't think I said that.
But, if you think that's the proper thing to do then you can deal with the consequences.

S.V. Airlie
05-15-2016, 01:57 PM
Hey get, why don't you do an experiment, go put on a dress and use the mens' room!

Chip-skiff
05-15-2016, 01:58 PM
I watched the link to the TV broadcast. Please note that the man who entered the restroom/shower area was not identified, which would make it possible to search his political affiliations. My take is that he's a right-wing whackjob who wanted to create a pretext to whip up the bigot brigade. Looks as if he succeeded. You are certainly whipped up and blowing bubbles.

Can any of you so-called "conservatives" prove that he is any sort of left-wing transgender activist, or give any version of the incident that contradicts my assessment?

This is the same sleazeball provocateur tactic that gave us the Planned Parenthood/baby parts controversy.

john welsford
05-15-2016, 02:13 PM
Interesting. My "interest" in this thread, is not so much the subject matter as it is the reaction of some people to it.
But on swimming pools and changing rooms, I visit our local geothermal hot pools pretty regularly, and a couple of visits ago, a father brought his little daughter ( I assume, anyway, an adult male brought a girl of about 4 years old) into the male changing room to change out of her swimsuit, shower and into her clothes. No problem none of the guys in there even raised an eyebrow, the girl was not disturbed by being naked among men changing or under the shower, there was no more reaction than there would be if the child was male.

We all know what the other gender looks like, naked doesn't mean automatic sex, in many parts of the world naked is pretty normal on beaches or in parks and rapes or sexual assaults are no more common than in the more uptight places. If anything, they're less common.

As for "Trans" people, they're much less likely to want to draw attention to themselves than most people, all they want is to be left alone to get on with life, things have been tough enough for them as it is.

John Welsford


So a Father takes his daughter to a public swimming pool and you want the Father to enter the locker room to protect her from perverts.

john welsford
05-15-2016, 02:17 PM
http://cdn.lolwot.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/10-amazing-before-and-after-transgender-transformations-10.jpg[

Let's see, this woman is just fine in the shower with your 12 year old daughter, that's what you are saying right?

Yes, cant see any reason why not.
John Welsford

S.V. Airlie
05-15-2016, 02:21 PM
No wonder Bruce Jenner wants to change back, he'd have to use the men's room either way along as needing a new reality show!

CWSmith
05-15-2016, 03:24 PM
As for "Trans" people, they're much less likely to want to draw attention to themselves than most people, all they want is to be left alone to get on with life, things have been tough enough for them as it is.


That has certainly been my limited experience.

To be fair, I think the argument being made is that predators will claim to be what they are not to gain entrance and access to young girls. I suspect that like alcohol, we are held responsible for our actions rather than our possession and this will never amount to more than the isolated event not unlike what happens now. Predators will be predators and they will be stopped. People claiming to be trans for the few minutes it takes to gain access to changing rooms will be shown not to live that same identity in the rest of their lives and will pay the usual price for their actions.

Chip-skiff
05-15-2016, 05:30 PM
Can the secret to the country’s happiness be found in its communal pools?

On a frigid February day in Reykjavik, I stood bare-chested and dripping wet just inside the dressing room at the Vesturbaejar pool, facing a long, cold walk to the outdoor hot tubs. My host was stoic, strong, a Viking. I was whining.

“I just don’t want to go out there,” I said. “How do you make yourself do it?”

“You must, to swim in the pool,” Valdimar Hafstein said with a shrug. He is a folklorist at the University of Iceland who studies the country’s pools. “Kids hate it, too. I have to haul my kids kicking and screaming.” I took a deep breath and tried to think of warm things. Wearing only a Speedo bathing suit — I had packed three, in honor of the island’s reputation as one of the company’s most avid markets — I stepped onto the deck. It was a few degrees below freezing.

Imagine the feeling you get when you hold an ice cube tight, that combination of sting and ache, except imagine it all over your nearly nude body. Battling my long-ingrained instincts never to run at a swimming pool, I fell into a kind of brisk walk-trot, aiming for the large set of interconnected hot tubs in the center of the complex. I’m sure I looked ridiculous. The good news: I’d never been less concerned about my appearance while wearing almost nothing in public.

Small snowflakes glittered in the sky, which at 4 p.m. was already darkening toward dusk. I reached the largest hot tub and sank to my chin. For one glorious moment, I felt my mind go blank: There was just my body, my big, stupid body in its stupid bathing suit, enveloped in warmth, the cold wind on my ears only heightening my delight. Behind me, Valdimar ambled across the deck, saying hello to a neighbor in another hot pot.

Every Icelandic town, no matter how small, has its own pool. There are ramshackle cement rectangles squatting under rain clouds in the sheep-strewn boonies. There are fancy aquatic complexes with multilevel hot tubs and awesomely dangerous water slides of the sort that litigious American culture would never allow. All told, there are more than 120 public pools — usually geothermally heated, mostly outdoors, open all year long — in Iceland, a country with a population just slightly larger than that of Lexington, Ky. “If you don’t have a swimming pool, it seems you may as well not even be a town,” the mayor of Reykjavik, Dagur Eggertsson, told me. I interviewed him, of course, as we relaxed together in a downtown hot tub.

These public pools, or sundlaugs, serve as the communal heart of Iceland, sacred places whose affordability and ubiquity are viewed as a kind of civil right. Families and teenagers and older people lounge and chat in sundlaugs every day, summer or winter. Despite Iceland’s cruel climate, its remoteness and its winters of 19 hours of darkness per day, the people there are among the most contented in the world. The more local swimming pools I visited, the more convinced I became that Icelanders’ remarkable satisfaction is tied inextricably to the experience of escaping the fierce, freezing air and sinking into warm water among their countrymen. The pools are more than a humble municipal investment, more than just a civic perquisite that emerged from an accident of Iceland’s volcanic geology. They seem to be, in fact, a key to Icelandic well-being.

This past winter, I visited Iceland and swam in 14 pools all over the country. I found them full of Icelanders eager to discuss what role these underwater village greens played in their lives. I met recent immigrants to the Westfjords town Bolungarvik as they mingled with their new neighbors, their toddler carrying fresh handfuls of snow into the hot tub and delightedly watching them melt. I saw Icelandic parents splash with their kids to calm them before bedtime; I talked to adults who remembered that ritual from childhood and could summon the memory of slipping their still-warm bodies between cool sheets. I heard stories of divorcing couples splitting their local pools along with their possessions and retired couples bonding by swimming together every day. I watched four steaming septuagenarians swim laps in a northern Iceland pool while the sunrise lit up the mountains behind them and an attendant brought out foam cups of coffee balanced on a kickboard. “I think the swimming pools are what make it possible to live here,” the young artist Ragnheidur Harpa Leifsdottir said. “You have storms, you have darkness, but the swimming pool is a place for you to find yourself again.”

For centuries, Iceland was a nation of seamen who regularly drowned within sight of shore. One local newspaper reported in 1887 that more than 100 Icelanders had drowned that winter alone. In 1931, a boat carrying four farmers capsized while they tried to row a panicking cow across Kollafjordur fjord. Three of the men died; one, who had studied swimming, survived.

(cont.)

Chip-skiff
05-15-2016, 05:31 PM
(part 2)

Incidents like this fostered an enthusiasm for swimming education. At the time, the only place to learn was a muddy ditch downstream from the hot spring where the women of Reykjavik did laundry. Inspired by that hot spring, and using a heavily mortgaged drill that had been brought to Iceland to search fruitlessly for gold, the city soon tapped the underground hot water generated by Iceland’s volcanic underbelly. Iceland’s first geothermal heat flowed into 70 homes and three civic buildings: a school, a hospital and a swimming pool. The national energy authority offered no-risk loans to villages across the country to encourage geothermal drilling, and within a generation, the ancient turf house had nearly disappeared from Iceland, replaced by modern apartment buildings and homes, all of them so toasty warm that even on winter nights most Icelanders leave a window open. With hot water flowing through the country and a populace eager to take a dip — swimming education was made mandatory in all Icelandic schools in 1943 — pools soon popped up in every town.
“Because of the weather, we don’t have proper plazas in the Italian or French style,” the writer Magnus Sveinn Helgason explained to me. “Beer was banned in Iceland until 1989, so we don’t have the pub tradition of England or Ireland.” The pool is Iceland’s social space: where families meet neighbors, where newcomers first receive welcome, where rivals can’t avoid one another. It can be hard for reserved Icelanders, who “don’t typically talk to their neighbors in the store or in the street,” to forge connections, Mayor Dagur told me. (Icelanders generally use patronymic and matronymic last names and refer to everyone, even the mayor, by first name.) “In the hot tub, you must interact,” Mayor Dagur continued. “There’s nothing else to do.”

Not only must you interact; you must do so in a state of quite literal exposure. Most Icelanders have a story about taking visitors, often American, to the pools and then seeing them balk in horror at the strict requirement to strip naked, shower and scrub their bodies with soap from head to toe. Men’s and women’s locker rooms feature posters highlighting all the regions you must lather assiduously: head, armpits, undercarriage, feet. Icelanders are very serious about these rules, which are necessary because the pools are only lightly chlorinated; tourists and shy teenagers are often scolded by pool wardens for insufficient showering. The practice was even the subject of a popular sketch on the comedy show “Fostbraedur,” in which a zealous warden scrubs down a reluctant pool visitor himself.

That one of the buck-*naked bystanders in that viral video, Jon Gnarr, was later elected mayor of Reykjavik demonstrates that Icelanders are quite un-*self-*conscious about nudity in the service of pool cleanliness. This was made most clear to me, perhaps, in a dressing room in the town Isafjordur, where a chatty liquor-*store manager named Snorri Grimsson told me a long story about the time a beautiful Australian girl asked him to go to the pool but then revealed that she doesn’t shower before swimming. He mugged a look of comic horror, then brought home the kicker: “It was a very difficult decision. Thankfully, the pool was closed!” I could tell this bit killed with his fellow Icelanders, but my own appreciation of it was somewhat impeded by Snorri’s delivery of it in the nude, his left foot on the sink, stretching like a ballet dancer at the barre.

“It’s wonderful,” an actress named Salome Gunnarsdottir told me in the pool one evening. “Growing up here, we see all kinds of real women’s bodies. Sixty-*five-*year-*olds, middle-*aged, pregnant women. Not just people in magazines or on TV.”

Her friends, all in their 20s and pregaming for a Saturday night out in the bars, nodded enthusiastically. “Especially pregnant women,” Helga Gunnhildursdottir agreed. “You can see: Oh yes, she really got quite big.”

“It’s so important,” Salome said earnestly. “You get used to breasts and vaginas!”

As a journalist, I will never forget the uniquely Icelandic experience of shaking hands with handsome Mayor Dagur and then, just minutes later, interviewing him as we each bared all. (In the tradition of politician interviews everywhere, an aide lurked nearby, in a manner I would call unobtrusive but for the fact that he was also naked.) I admit I found this disconcerting at first, but eventually there was something comforting about seeing all those other chests and butts and guts — which for the most part belonged to normal human-being bodies, not sculpted masterpieces. And that comfort extends out into the pool proper, where you might be covered — only a little, in my case — but are still on display.

But near-nudity, by encouraging a slight remove from others, also allows the visitor to focus, in a profound and unfamiliar way, on his own body, on its responses and needs. Despite its being a social hub, the pool also cultivates inwardness. Results of a questionnaire distributed by Valdimar’s research team suggested that women in particular go to the pool to seek solitude. According to women I talked to, most everyone respects the posture of aquatic reverie — head tilted back against the pool wall, eyes closed, mouth smiling a tiny smile of satisfaction — that you adopt when you come to the pool wanting to be left alone.

Sigurlaug Dagsdottir, a graduate student researching the pools, speculated that the sundlaugs’ social utility in Icelandic communities derives in part from the intimacy of the physical experience: In the pool, she said, you can “take off the five layers of clothing that usually separate you from everyone else.” As such, the pools are a great leveler: Council members in Reykjavik make a point to circulate among the city’s sundlaugs, where they often take good-natured grief from their constituents. The filmmaker Jon Karl Helgason, who is shooting a documentary about Iceland’s pools, said, “When people are in the swimming pool, it doesn’t matter if you are a doctor or a taxi driver.” His girlfriend, Fridgerdur Gudmundsdottir, added, “Everyone is dressed the same.”

On the way from Reykjavik to Keflavik airport is the Blue Lagoon, a luxurious hot-water spa that is one of Iceland’s most popular tourist destinations. There, for 40 euros, you can shower in private stalls and float in mineral-rich water — discharge from the nearby Svartsengi power plant, which uses turbines twice as tall as a man to generate 75 megawatts of electricity and 150 thermal megawatts of heat for the surrounding towns.

My final day in Iceland, I turned off the highway just after the Blue Lagoon and instead drove into one of those towns, the port Rekjanesbaer. The lobby of the town’s pool is dotted, fittingly, by a series of porthole-like windows. The woman working at the desk charged me nine bucks and asked, “Is this your first time in an Iceland swimming pool?”

“Nope,” I said with some pleasure.

The familiar signs in the showers were supplemented by notices in Polish, targeting the new wave of immigrants who have found work in Rekjanesbaer. I snapped on my Speedo, steeled my courage and exited the warm lodge into the chill. The 36-to-38-degrees-Celsius hot pot was full of enormous men with Bluto-type physiques and also a small girl in a pink ruffled bathing suit. The largest of the Blutos rose from the water, picked up the girl and carried her, giggling, to the family pool. His biceps sported a tattoo of a roaring bear consumed by flames.

This time I didn’t approach anyone, didn’t ask any questions. I didn’t speak at all. I concentrated on what I could feel: the water pressing lightly on my skin, the wind prickling my beard. All around me was the soft white noise of a community. The conversation; the connection; the freedom, within that flurry of sociability, to withdraw and simply be within yourself. It called to mind something a Ph.D. student named Katrin Gudmundsdtottir told me on my first day in Iceland. She was describing a certain ineffable emotional state to me, a native Icelander’s sense of comfort while immersed in her neighborhood sundlaug. When I thought of what she said, a perfect G chord strummed inside me. “It’s not exactly like you’re happy,” she had mused. “It’s that you know how to be in the swimming pool.”

The sun was low on the horizon, bright but evanescent. The only other thing in the crystal-*blue sky was the contrail of a jet, pointed to the west. I closed my eyes. I was in the pool.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/magazine/icelands-water-cure.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

genglandoh
05-15-2016, 07:09 PM
Here is an example of what can and did happen.
A man dressed as a man goes into the women’s locker room and takes his clothes off.
After swimming he does it again, this time when a young girl’s swim team is getting changed.
He defends his action saying that he has the law on his side.

It is amazing the some on this forum will try to argue that this will not happen.

Title: Seattle man tests transgender rule by undressing in women's locker room
No one was arrested in this case and police weren't called, even though the man returned a second time while young girls were changing for swim practice.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/02/17/transgender-rule-washington-state-man-undresses-locker-room/80501904/

Lets take this guy as an example.
He enters a women s locker room and undresses exposing himself to the women and girls in the locker room.
He also may get lucky and see a few female body parts before they can cover up.
If anyone asks him to leave the locker room all he has to say it that he has always though of himself as a women.
Today this is legal and the owner of the facility and the police can do nothing about it.

Ian McColgin
05-15-2016, 07:20 PM
Good story there genglandoh. As it points out:

"Sort of works against the point they're trying to make. They're causing people to feel exposed and vulnerable with the intention of reducing people feeling exposed and vulnerable," said pool regular Aldan Shank.
The man's protest, if that's what it was, hurts the greater cause, Shank says.

(I can see why genglandoh chose to suppress that part of the story in his C&P. The prurient repressive haters who want to support legalizing their prejudices with acts like this really just make fools of themselves.)

Daniel Noyes
05-15-2016, 07:30 PM
You are welcome to have people like Dennis Hastert in your son't boys locker room Daniel. I'm sure you would feel safe and have peace of mind! Oh right, Hastert is not transgender.

right... he's a guy, who is sexually attracted to other guys... how is that any better?

Sky Blue
05-15-2016, 07:34 PM
Ian, the Seattle pool episode is discussed in the video linked in #165. Did you watch it?

How do you respond to the woman's comments about what occurred?

Why does the relative comfort of a transgendered individual outweigh the privacy rights of these children?

Ian McColgin
05-15-2016, 07:51 PM
Have you figured out that the Seattle pool episode in genglandoh's linked print story does not involve a transgendered person. It was an invasive and rather wretched twit prancing about the women's shower. Total jerk and everyone got that point.

There may come a time when the smutty minded bigots who think they are bravely protecting women and children by swinging their parts about will need to face arrest to stop them but even then, they are not transgendered people. They don't resemble or represent transgendered people. They are low level sex offenders and should be treated as such.

Paul Pless
05-15-2016, 07:51 PM
Ann Coulter?


http://cdn.lolwot.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/10-amazing-before-and-after-transgender-transformations-10.jpg[

CWSmith
05-15-2016, 07:59 PM
Ann Coulter?

As if this thread isn't bad enough, you have to invoke her name! Yuk!

Keith Wilson
05-15-2016, 08:00 PM
Have you figured out that the Seattle pool episode in genglandoh's linked print story does not involve a transgendered person? It was an invasive and rather wretched twit prancing about the women's shower. Total jerk and everyone got that point.

There may come a time when the smutty minded bigots who think they are bravely protecting women and children by swinging their parts about will need to face arrest to stop them but even then, they are not transgendered people. They don't resemble or represent transgendered people. They are low level sex offenders and should be treated as such.Exactly. Any intelligently-written law would clearly distinguish between transgender people and heterosexual male creeps; as Ian says, low-level sex offenders. It's not difficult.

Sky Blue
05-15-2016, 08:20 PM
Exactly. Any intelligently-written law would clearly distinguish between transgender people and heterosexual male creeps; as Ian says, low-level sex offenders. It's not difficult.

But that is precisely what the protest, if indeed it was, proved. That the law does not sufficiently make such a distinction (and likely cannot, inasmuch as the distinction turns on what it in the mind of the bathroom user and not outward appearances, per se). The guy may not have even been a "creep." I doubt he was. We're not talking about predation, gentlemen (at least my part of this discussion isn't). We're talking about constitutional rights of sexual privacy (especially for children) balanced against the state's interest in promoting public accommodation inclusion in this form.

It's not about the personage, it is about the law. Statutory and constitutional law. Be that as it may, did either of you (Keith & Ian) watch the video linked in #165, and are either of you sufficiently credible to address the issues raised in it? It includes legal points and transgender points of view.

Hugh Conway
05-15-2016, 08:49 PM
But that is precisely what the protest, if indeed it was, proved. That the law does not sufficiently make such a distinction (and likely cannot, inasmuch as the distinction turns on what it in the mind of the bathroom user and not outward appearances, per se). The guy may not have even been a "creep." I doubt he was. We're not talking about predation, gentlemen (at least my part of this discussion isn't). We're talking about constitutional rights of sexual privacy (especially for children) balanced against the state's interest in promoting public accommodation inclusion in this form.

It's not about the personage, it is about the law. Statutory and constitutional law. Be that as it may, did either of you (Keith & Ian) watch the video linked in #165, and are either of you sufficiently credible to address the issues raised in it? It includes legal points and transgender points of view.


Up's still down, eh?

CWSmith
05-15-2016, 08:56 PM
While the title of this thread is needlessly inflammatory, I admit that I have some concern for transsexuals who have not completed the process. For instance, those who wish to identify as female, but have not had the surgery, will find it very difficult to use any public rest room, shower, or locker room. They won't be welcome with the girls and will feel their identity betrayed if they have to associate with the boys. We should find a better solution for these people.

Chip-skiff
05-15-2016, 09:01 PM
It's not about the personage, it is about the law. Statutory and constitutional law. Be that as it may, did either of you (Keith & Ian) watch the video linked in #165, and are either of you sufficiently credible to address the issues raised in it? It includes legal points and transgender points of view.

I watched the video. Did you read my post? That the guy must be a right-wing provocateur? You didn't address that. Or didn't choose to address it.

"Statutory" law as opposed to what other sort? Common law? Fox News fantasy law? Law of the Jungle?

You know as much about transgender issues as my dog does about investing for retirement.

Harvey Golden
05-15-2016, 09:03 PM
... We're talking about constitutional rights of sexual privacy...

What is the constitutional right to sexual privacy, and does it extend to public facilities? (I honestly don't know the answer-- The 4th Amend. covers search & seizure, etc...). Has it been actually illegal for a man to use a woman's restroom, or vice-versa? -- Again, I don't know the answer to this.

Harvey Golden
05-15-2016, 09:06 PM
You know as much about transgender issues as my dog does about investing for retirement.

Careful now. . . we used to have a Basset Hound that would carry mouthfuls of food to the dark recesses of our house and stash them for "later." Maybe you just haven't found the piles yet :d

Sky Blue
05-15-2016, 09:14 PM
What is the constitutional right to sexual privacy, and does it extend to public facilities? (I honestly don't know the answer-- The 4th Amend. covers search & seizure, etc...). Has it been actually illegal for a man to use a woman's restroom, or vice-versa? -- Again, I don't know the answer to this.

These are excellent questions, the answers to which I believe will be coming from various state and federal courts, including the Supreme Court, in the coming years.

I submit such a privacy right is grounded in the 14 Amendment. I also believe the situation as it currently exists in Seattle may well violate due process, especially for children.

Harvey Golden
05-15-2016, 09:21 PM
^Thank you for the considered response. My understanding is that, for example, if I were to use a woman's restroom 5 years ago, it wouldn't be a breach of any law, but obviously 'frowned upon.' I myself have offered the men's room to women, where their rooms' lines were absurdly long. I was happily taken up on such offers, and I took the responsibility of standing by (at the sink, in case it stirred any concerns among other men).

Sky Blue
05-15-2016, 09:24 PM
Did you read my post? That the guy must be a right-wing provocateur?

The guy that went into the bathroom? His motive is irrelevant. The law expressly allows the conduct he engaged in, irrespective of motive. I submit that is precisely the problem with the law. Even if the conduct in question is permitted under local law, I argue that it nevertheless violates federal privacy right of persons present to the extent they perceive the relevant user as the opposite gender (and that perception is objectively reasonable).

L.W. Baxter
05-15-2016, 10:00 PM
All this concern for the letter of the law.

The letter of the law holds blameless a motorist who runs down a pedestrian not using a crosswalk. And yet, if you don't make an effort to not kill a jaywalker, you might find the letter of the law to be cold comfort. The law in this case is not designed to make vehicular homicide acceptable.

Likewise, a rule designed to allow a tiny minority to make a choice about their gender in conflict with some or all of their sex organs, is not a license for spluttering ignoramus jagoffs to use the girl's showers.

We all know a jagoff when we see one. If certain people could find it in their stingy little hearts to not be jagoffs, we could all stop worrying about the children.

Sky Blue
05-15-2016, 10:39 PM
On Friday, I stopped at the Westbound I-80 rest stop in Vallejo, California with my family. The rest area is new-ish and is on a high bluff with a far view to the Bay. It has three washrooms, a standard walk-in men's, a similar women's, and between then a single "room" toilet with basin marked with both gender symbols and "Family" or something very similar to this (iirc). I took the signage to mean that anyone on earth could use the middle washroom with no questions. Naturally, I used the middle washroom, to the slight annoyance of my wife, who felt I was perhaps making some kind of political statement. I just wanted to take a leak. A tiny little old woman looked at me oddly as I emerged. Perhaps she felt I shouldn't have been in there.

oznabrag
05-15-2016, 11:18 PM
On Friday, I stopped at the Westbound I-80 rest stop in Vallejo, California with my family. The rest area is new-ish and is on a high bluff with a far view to the Bay. It has three washrooms, a standard walk-in men's, a similar women's, and between then a single "room" toilet with basin marked with both gender symbols and "Family" or something very similar to this (iirc). I took the signage to mean that anyone on earth could use the middle washroom with no questions. Naturally, I used the middle washroom, to the slight annoyance of my wife, who felt I was perhaps making some kind of political statement. I just wanted to take a leak. A tiny little old woman looked at me oddly as I emerged. Perhaps she felt I shouldn't have been in there.

Your wife is a saint.

L.W. Baxter
05-16-2016, 12:14 AM
On Friday, I stopped at the Westbound I-80 rest stop in Vallejo, California with my family. The rest area is new-ish and is on a high bluff with a far view to the Bay. It has three washrooms, a standard walk-in men's, a similar women's, and between then a single "room" toilet with basin marked with both gender symbols and "Family" or something very similar to this (iirc). I took the signage to mean that anyone on earth could use the middle washroom with no questions. Naturally, I used the middle washroom, to the slight annoyance of my wife, who felt I was perhaps making some kind of political statement. I just wanted to take a leak. A tiny little old woman looked at me oddly as I emerged. Perhaps she felt I shouldn't have been in there.

That's it in a nutshell. A white hetero man, concerned that somebody might have a special right not afforded him, is compelled to act a fool.

Boatfix
05-16-2016, 12:23 AM
The guy that went into the bathroom? His motive is irrelevant. The law expressly allows the conduct he engaged in, irrespective of motive. I submit that is precisely the problem with the law. Even if the conduct in question is permitted under local law, I argue that it nevertheless violates federal privacy right of persons present to the extent they perceive the relevant user as the opposite gender (and that perception is objectively reasonable).


Well put! I thought I said this more or less earlier, on the protection of children and the parents of same's piece of mind. Thanks for clearly stating the problem.

oznabrag
05-16-2016, 02:21 AM
That's it in a nutshell. A white hetero man, concerned that somebody might have a special right not afforded him, is compelled to act a fool.

Dammit, LW, yer cheatin' again!

Nobody nails it like that if they don't have a cheat sheet!

Kevin T
05-16-2016, 04:24 AM
That is a great question. It may be formed as a question, it starts with a word that is often used to frame a question, and it even ends with punctuation that looks like a question. But it isn't a real question, rhetorical question maybe. I see it more as stating some kind of fact that is not in evidence. In other words, Target changed their policy , therefore you must accept that it was changed for legitimate reasons, because everyone knows that the Target corporation is the final word on American jurisprudence. Bah!

BrianW
05-16-2016, 04:56 AM
So, you're saying Transgenders are perverts geng? Hey, wasn't Dennis Hastert a pervert? I think so. He goes into boys locker rooms, nothing stopped. This law certainly won't, you really are saying Transgendered people are perverts.


right... he's a guy, who is sexually attracted to other guys... how is that any better?

Jamie has been fixated on Dennis the whole thread.

The fact is there are sexual predators in our world, and there's really nothing we can do to keep the male ones out of male locker rooms, but we have mostly kept them out of female locker rooms, until lately. Now progressives feel the need to open that path way for them too.

BrianW
05-16-2016, 04:59 AM
It may be formed as a question, it starts with a word that is often used to frame a question, and it even ends with punctuation that looks like a question. But it isn't a real question, rhetorical question maybe. I see it more as stating some kind of fact that is not in evidence. In other words, Target changed their policy , therefore you must accept that it was changed for legitimate reasons, because everyone knows that the Target corporation is the final word on American jurisprudence. Bah!

Target wasn't the only entity mentioned in my question. There was also the city of Charlotte.

You choose to dismiss Target's policy change, do you also choose to dismiss the City of Charlotte's overturned policy?

BrianW
05-16-2016, 05:03 AM
I watched the link to the TV broadcast. Please note that the man who entered the restroom/shower area was not identified, which would make it possible to search his political affiliations. My take is that he's a right-wing whackjob who wanted to create a pretext to whip up the bigot brigade. Looks as if he succeeded. You are certainly whipped up and blowing bubbles.

Can any of you so-called "conservatives" prove that he is any sort of left-wing transgender activist, or give any version of the incident that contradicts my assessment?

When I read this sort of argument, I know a very good point or example had just been previously made.

BrianW
05-16-2016, 05:13 AM
"2. A trans woman isn't interested in women, sexually." [#184]

There's quite a bit of diversity. I have two friends who are fully transexual - all operations and reconstructions done - who are lesbians. Interestingly, not all "natural born" lesbians accept them. Anyway, whatever else is going on, I'm not aware of any transexuals at any stage along the way who are a menace to young girls or boys. These are not people who bugger or bother children.

I was not aware that transgender people were somehow superior to the rest of the human population.

In fact, I know I've posted to this thread about transgender sexual predators...


ORONTO, March 4, 2014 (LifeSiteNews.com (http://www.lifesitenews.com)) – A biological man claiming to be ‘transgender’ so as to gain access to and prey on women at two Toronto shelters was jailed “indefinitely” last week after being declared by a judge a “dangerous offender.” Pro-family leaders are pointing out that this is exactly the type of incident they warned of as the Ontario government passed its “gender identity” bill, dubbed the “bathroom bill,” in 2012.
Christopher Hambrook, 37, leaned on the ever expanding legal “rights” offered to people who “identify” with the sex opposite their biology. Under the name “Jessica,” he was able to get into the women’s shelters, where he sexually assaulted several women in 2012, the Toronto Sun reports (http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender).
Court heard how one woman awoke to find Hambrook assaulting her on her bed. “Her tights had been pulled down past her bottom and her bathing suit had been pulled to the side,” court documents reveal. “She yelled at the accused, demanding to know what he was doing. He simply covered his face with his hands, said ‘Oops!’ and started giggling.”
Court also heard evidence of Hambrook terrorizing a deaf woman living in the shelter. “The accused grabbed the complainant’s hand and forcibly placed it on his crotch area while his penis was erect,” court heard.
The same deaf women reported that Hambrook would peer at her through a gap between the door and its frame while she showered.
Justice John McMahon imposed the “indefinite” prison sentence due to Hambrook’s long history of committing sex crimes.
RELATED: Man strips in front of girls in locker room, says transgender law allows it (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/man-strips-in-front-of-girls-in-swimming-pool-locker-says-transgender-law-a)
Hambrook was a former stripper and escort from Quebec before moving to Toronto in 2009 and posing as a woman. While in Montreal he served four years in jail for a 2002 sexual assault of a five-year-old girl who was a family friend and for raping a mentally challenged 27-year-old woman while on bail for the first crime, reports (http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception) the Toronto Sun.
The prosecution successfully convinced the judge that Hambrook’s out-of-control sexual urges put the public at great risk and that an indefinite jail sentence was the only way to protect the public.
“I am satisfied there is no reasonable expectation that a lesser measure would adequately protect the public from Christopher Hambrook,” said Judge McMahon.

Again, I only researched that because like Ians quote above, some people here think transgender people are pure as driven snow. When the facts are that they are just humans, like everyone else. A certain percentage of people are screwed up sex predators, and that percentage crosses all boundaries of race, gender, gender orientation, religion, culture, etc.

Kevin T
05-16-2016, 06:56 AM
Target wasn't the only entity mentioned in my question. There was also the city of Charlotte. You choose to dismiss Target's policy change, do you also choose to dismiss the City of Charlotte's overturned policy?

Absolutely!

Keith Wilson
05-16-2016, 07:12 AM
'Family' single-stall restrooms in addition to the larger ones are a useful concept. I've used them myself when with my 3-year-old granddaughter, who's too little to go into the women's room alone. I'll take her into a men's room if it's it essentially empty, but having the alternative is better for everybody. If SB wants to pee in the 'family' restroom, why not, as long as there's not a long line and he doesn't make a mess? Providing such things seems to be a convenience for everybody.

Mr. Hanbrook is one sick dude, and definitely belongs somewhere he can't indulge his urges. In this case, the law appears to have had little difficulty figuring that out. An intelligently-written law can allow transgender people to pee in peace, yet allow police to arrest peole like Hanbrook. Sexual assault is illegal everywhere, yet unfortunately still happens. I don't think allowing transgender peole to use the bathroom corresponding to their identified gender will have a significant effect on it one way or another. If a man wishes to assault women, there are plenty of better places available than a bathroom.

Kevin T
05-16-2016, 07:15 AM
I was not aware that transgender people were somehow superior to the rest of the human population. In fact, I know I've posted to this thread about transgender sexual predators... Again, I only researched that because like Ians quote above, some people here think transgender people are pure as driven snow. When the facts are that they are just humans, like everyone else. A certain percentage of people are screwed up sex predators, and that percentage crosses all boundaries of race, gender, gender orientation, religion, culture, etc.

By this logic then we can't take a chance on any communal toilet or shower facilities. I move that we immediately convert every public toilet, shower and changing area to individual, single person, triple lockable facilities. Because as you know. . .

what about the children?

BrianW
05-16-2016, 07:27 AM
By this logic then we can't take a chance on any communal toilet or shower facilities. I move that we immediately convert every public toilet, shower and changing area to individual, single person, triple lockable facilities. Because as you know. . .

You're not the first here to propose that, or at least ask why we haven't done so yet. My simple suggestion of keeping men out of the ladies locker room seems pretty basic. In the meantime, you work on your solution.


...what about the children?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/12963502_1053798184696409_8274117406760338119_n_zp sk5nkt1vp.jpg

Rigadog
05-16-2016, 07:29 AM
A simple solution is just to close all the showers. Showering is really old school and a huge waste of precious water and are extremely dangerous. Statistics show there are countless thousands injured by falling in showers every year, several times the number who are injured ballooning, loading the family Harquebus, or bull riding. If one absolutely must get wet there's always the sponge bath or the neighbors fish pond. But ultimately it's safer to forgo showers altogether and rely on cutting edge antiperspirants.