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Garret
04-29-2016, 07:01 AM
Interesting chart of what the medians are in different states. Of course what one actually pays depends on one's assessment, but the rates vary quite a bit:

http://realtormag.realtor.org/daily-news/2016/04/28/who-pays-highest-property-taxes#.VyJtJ8vNd9M.facebook

http://realtormag.realtor.org/sites/realtormag.realtor.org/files/rmo_files/images/2016_mar/4_28_core_logic.png

Living next door, I can't help but notice NH. While they have no income or sales tax (& I thank them for the latter whenever I buy something there) - they not only have a high property tax rate, they also have personal property taxes on vehicles.

Is Hawaii so cheap because their property values are so high? High taxes on hotels?

Tom Wilkinson
04-29-2016, 09:29 AM
Interesting chart of what the medians are in different states. Of course what one actually pays depends on one's assessment, but the rates vary quite a bit:

http://realtormag.realtor.org/daily-news/2016/04/28/who-pays-highest-property-taxes#.VyJtJ8vNd9M.facebook

http://realtormag.realtor.org/sites/realtormag.realtor.org/files/rmo_files/images/2016_mar/4_28_core_logic.png

Living next door, I can't help but notice NH. While they have no income or sales tax (& I thank them for the latter whenever I buy something there) - they not only have a high property tax rate, they also have personal property taxes on vehicles.

Is Hawaii so cheap because their property values are so high? High taxes on hotels?

NH was kind enough to split the bill into two installments a coul years ago. I supoose that eases the pain a little bit, but in reality I'd rather keep my money in my own account for the extra six months.

S.V. Airlie
04-29-2016, 09:31 AM
Same in NY!

Rum_Pirate
04-29-2016, 09:37 AM
Wow those are high property taxes.

We are more like Hawaii at 0.25% (1/4 of 1%) of the (Property tax authority) estimated market value, although the authority then discounts that by about 20% and charges the tax on the reduced value.

You are allowed to challenge it but 99% of the time the actual tax charged is lower than the law allows them to collect.

Todd D
04-29-2016, 09:40 AM
Maine is quite variable within the state. Our rate is about 0.75% and there are places within a few miles that are lower.

Rum_Pirate
04-29-2016, 09:44 AM
Maine is quite variable within the state. Our rate is about 0.75% and there are places within a few miles that are lower.

The 1.47% for Maine is the median. While there are some at 0.75% or lower than 1.47% remember that there will be some that are higher.

Are all the value for each individual property available for public inspection and scrutiny?

BrianY
04-29-2016, 09:49 AM
Living next door, I can't help but notice NH. While they have no income or sales tax (& I thank them for the latter whenever I buy something there) - they not only have a high property tax rate, they also have personal property taxes on vehicles.



Ya gotta pay the bills somehow, right? Whether it's through income, sales, property taxes or other taxes and fees, the states have to collect money to pay for the services the residents demand.

It's telling, I think, that of the 9 worst-performing states regarding public school K-12 education (according to the 2016 Quality Counts report by Education Week) , 7 of them (WV, DC, AK, LA, AL, NM, NV) are in the sub-1% group and the other two (MS and CA) are just over the 1% mark. Now, I know that there are MANY factors at play in determining the success of education system, but this information does tend to support the old adage that you get what you pay for.

Ted Hoppe
04-29-2016, 10:35 AM
What are they when you add the bond measures and added fees. There is the hidden and most shocking costs.

Todd D
04-29-2016, 10:49 AM
The 1.47% for Maine is the median. While there are some at 0.75% or lower than 1.47% remember that there will be some that are higher.

Are all the value for each individual property available for public inspection and scrutiny?

Yes assessed values and actual taxes are public records. Most are available on line (link for our town - http://tremont.maine.gov/Pages/TremontME_Collector/index). Hmm, looks like our taxes are up to 0.89% this year. Tax rates here are inversely proportional to the affluence of the town. Higher valuations mean lower tax rates. Inland 50 miles tax rates are much higher than here on the coast.

ahp
04-29-2016, 10:56 AM
Some places, and I live in one of those places, have homestead exemption. To qualify you must be a senior citizen, it must be your only home, and your income must be below a certain value.

Too Little Time
04-29-2016, 10:59 AM
Interesting chart of what the medians are in different states. Of course what one actually pays depends on one's assessment, but the rates vary quite a bit.
There is a base cost to live in an area. Property taxes are part of the base cost of living. If your income is below that, you are in trouble. If your income is above that base cost, you can make choices about how to spend (or save) the excess.

I was amused when my daughter called. In part of the conversation she mentioned that they had "buyer's remorse" for not buying a house when they moved to California. Prices had doubled in their area since then. Property taxes have a much smaller affect on one's economic position than price changes.

CWSmith
04-29-2016, 12:14 PM
Remember that NH has no income tax. So, most of the state's income is via property tax.

Now, consider that you are rich, you have a very nice house, and you make a lot of money. Are you better or worse off paying only a high property tax rate, the same rate as the poorest in the community?

hokiefan
04-29-2016, 12:19 PM
Some places, and I live in one of those places, have homestead exemption. To qualify you must be a senior citizen, it must be your only home, and your income must be below a certain value.

Georgia also locks your assessment on your primary residence to the value at the time of purchase. Makes a big difference if you stay in one home a long time.

Cheers,

Bobby

Garret
04-29-2016, 12:52 PM
Remember that NH has no income tax. So, most of the state's income is via property tax.

Now, consider that you are rich, you have a very nice house, and you make a lot of money. Are you better or worse off paying only a high property tax rate, the same rate as the poorest in the community?

My first reaction is that an income tax is fairer. An example: 200 acre family farm (that will have a large portion in current use admittedly) - but valuation is say $500,000. A dairy farmer might make $60K/year off it, but be forced to pay taxes on that + the pickup & the car his wife drives to the job @ McD's. Then you have the person who can afford the McMansion also valued @ $500k. Who's better able to pay?

Tom Wilkinson
04-29-2016, 12:59 PM
Georgia also locks your assessment on your primary residence to the value at the time of purchase. Makes a big difference if you stay in one home a long time.

Cheers,

Bobby

That is not true, Georgia values are reassessed frequently. I've fought and won several times but I wouldn't have had to do that if your statement was true.

http://www.celebratedouglascounty.com/view/departments/view_dept/&cdept=188&department=Appraisal%20Department/Board%20of%20Assessors

hokiefan
04-29-2016, 01:02 PM
That is not true, Georgia values are reassessed frequently. I've fought and won several times but I wouldn't have had to do that if your statement was true.

Maybe its a Chatham County regulation then. We get two assessments, one for estimated actual value and one for property tax value. The property tax value hasn't changed in decades.

Cheers,

Bobby

Tom Wilkinson
04-29-2016, 01:17 PM
That's not how their website reads.
http://www.chathamtax.org/Default.aspx#

A random tax assessment card I pulled (linked below)shows the tax value of the home changing each year.
http://boa.chathamcounty.org/DesktopModules/ChathamCounty/BoardofAssessors/PropertyRecordCard.aspx?RollYear=2015&PIN=1-0041-06-060

The tax bill on that same home has changed each year based on assessment.
http://www.chathamtax.org/PropertyCard.aspx?Id=2014-1983 assessment 214,000 tax 2,632
http://www.chathamtax.org/PropertyCard.aspx?Id=2013-1985 assessment 213,600 tax 2657
http://www.chathamtax.org/PropertyCard.aspx?Id=2012-1987 assessment 202,300 tax 2,311

Millage rates and other local taxes sometimes are adjusted each tax year as well.

PhaseLockedLoop
04-29-2016, 01:18 PM
Remember that NH has no income tax. So, most of the state's income is via property tax.

Now, consider that you are rich, you have a very nice house, and you make a lot of money. Are you better or worse off paying only a high property tax rate, the same rate as the poorest in the community?

The poorest in the community don't own property.

peb
04-29-2016, 01:42 PM
The poorest in the community don't own property.

Yea, but many of them pay rent, and the property taxes get passed on to the renters. Property taxes are certainly regressive, IMO, almost as bad as corporate taxes.

hokiefan
04-29-2016, 01:42 PM
That's not how their website reads.
http://www.chathamtax.org/Default.aspx#

A random tax assessment card I pulled (linked below)shows the tax value of the home changing each year.
http://boa.chathamcounty.org/DesktopModules/ChathamCounty/BoardofAssessors/PropertyRecordCard.aspx?RollYear=2015&PIN=1-0041-06-060

The tax bill on that same home has changed each year based on assessment.
http://www.chathamtax.org/PropertyCard.aspx?Id=2014-1983 assessment 214,000 tax 2,632
http://www.chathamtax.org/PropertyCard.aspx?Id=2013-1985 assessment 213,600 tax 2657
http://www.chathamtax.org/PropertyCard.aspx?Id=2012-1987 assessment 202,300 tax 2,311

Millage rates and other local taxes sometimes are adjusted each tax year as well.

Well, once again I didn't explain it correctly. There is a Stephens-Day exemption that is adjusted annually to keep the tax assessment constant. This was put in place about 2000. You are correct that the millage rate can be adjusted each year.

Cheers,

Bobby

Garret
04-29-2016, 01:47 PM
The poorest in the community don't own property.

In rural areas here, many of the poor (though maybe not the bottom 5%) own the old family farmhouse (minus a bunch of the land), or maybe a trailer, or something they've toggled together on an acre they were given by their uncle or some such.

David W Pratt
04-29-2016, 01:50 PM
RI also puts a property tax on vehicles, I think CT taxes boats

Tom Wilkinson
04-29-2016, 01:53 PM
Well, once again I didn't explain it correctly. There is a Stephens-Day exemption that is adjusted annually to keep the tax assessment constant. This was put in place about 2000. You are correct that the millage rate can be adjusted each year.

Cheers,

Bobby

The tax bills I used in the example are not constant though, and the assessments aren't either, both changed every year depending on assessment. I'd be interested in seeing the legislation you are talking about.

Too Little Time
04-29-2016, 02:01 PM
My first reaction is that an income tax is fairer. An example: 200 acre family farm (that will have a large portion in current use admittedly) - but valuation is say $500,000. A dairy farmer might make $60K/year off it, but be forced to pay taxes on that + the pickup & the car his wife drives to the job @ McD's. Then you have the person who can afford the McMansion also valued @ $500k. Who's better able to pay?
A number of people earn their money in one tax location and live in another. So an income tax may not be fairer.

But then no taxes are fair. Someone is always in the situation of paying more than they should.

I have not known a farmer for a long time, but earning $60K/year on a $500K asset and needing to work long hours to do so is not a good economic position to be in. On the other hand there are several arguments on the other side. "Making" $60K/year is after expenses including property taxes on the farm land. And $60K/year is not a bad income. One should not need a job at McD's unless one happens to own the McD's and helps out as owners do.

hokiefan
04-29-2016, 02:02 PM
The tax bills I used in the example are not constant though, and the assessments aren't either, both changed every year depending on assessment. I'd be interested in seeing the legislation you are talking about.

I went Googling for it, and while I found a lot of references to the exemption I couldn't find a good description of how it works.

And I took a look at a couple of my past tax bills and it apparently doesn't work like I thought I understood it. So I'll withdraw my claim that the assessed value for taxes doesn't increase. Oops...

Cheers,

Bobby

Garret
04-29-2016, 02:27 PM
A number of people earn their money in one tax location and live in another. So an income tax may not be fairer.

But then no taxes are fair. Someone is always in the situation of paying more than they should.

I have not known a farmer for a long time, but earning $60K/year on a $500K asset and needing to work long hours to do so is not a good economic position to be in. On the other hand there are several arguments on the other side. "Making" $60K/year is after expenses including property taxes on the farm land. And $60K/year is not a bad income. One should not need a job at McD's unless one happens to own the McD's and helps out as owners do.

The 60K was gross - not net.

About 5 or 6 years ago, there was an article in New England Farmer magazine about the Vermont Dairy of the Year. It was a husband & wife farm in northeast Vermont with about 50-60 head of cows. The 2 of them worked it themselves - figured 80 hours/week or so - 7 days a week for most of the year. In the article, the wife said (I may not have the words precisely as she put it): "I could work 40 hours/week at McDonalds and make more money than my 1/2 share of what we make on the farm. I know, because I work there part time to help make ends meet."

Small family farms are hanging on by their fingernails - but larger farms in the midwest growing corn for ethanol are making great money because of the subsidies.

Ask any farmer around here why they do it & they'll tell you it's because they love it - not that they make a good wage.

Too Little Time
04-29-2016, 02:37 PM
The 60K was gross - not net.

...

Small family farms are hanging on by their fingernails - but larger farms in the midwest growing corn for ethanol are making great money because of the subsidies.

Ask any farmer around here why they do it & they'll tell you it's because they love it - not that they make a good wage.
People are not entitled to a good wage because they are doing something they love. Or because they make poor business choices.

A reasonable number of small farmers know how to make money on a family farm.

Dan McCosh
04-29-2016, 03:08 PM
FWIW, property taxes in the City of Detroit are roughly 4% of the value of the property, and assessments often run at 10x the actual value of the property. More than 10,000 houses were confiscated for non-payment last year alone.

WI-Tom
04-29-2016, 03:36 PM
A reasonable number of small farmers know how to make money on a family farm.

I think you may have an overly rosy view of the economics of small farms.

From the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel:


The state lost 8,700 farms and more than 620,000 acres of farmland from 2007 to 2012, according to the Census of Agriculture, which is conducted every five years by the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/report-shows-significant-farm-losses-in-wisconsin-b99210324z1-246422381.html

Tom

S.V. Airlie
04-29-2016, 03:36 PM
Once a year, the local paper lists those who are in arrears. Much anticipated. Great for gossip in a small town, the list goes for four or five pages going back to those not paying for three years. Ah, the number of people you know is ummm depressing!

Garret
04-29-2016, 03:38 PM
People are not entitled to a good wage because they are doing something they love. Or because they make poor business choices.

A reasonable number of small farmers know how to make money on a family farm.

Nice to know you care.

Garret
04-29-2016, 03:39 PM
Once a year, the local paper lists those who are in arrears. Much anticipated. Great for gossip in a small town, the list goes for four or five pages going back to those not paying for three years. Ah, the number of people you know is ummm depressing!

I've been on that list. Not fun. What ticked me off was that I'd arranged a payment plan (with interest) & they still put me on it.

CWSmith
04-29-2016, 03:42 PM
My first reaction is that an income tax is fairer.

Hell, yes! The NH approach is highly regressive and favors the wealthy. And then think about the retired folks who have low incomes, but still need a place to live.

CWSmith
04-29-2016, 03:46 PM
The poorest in the community don't own property.

Do they need a place to live, to get out of the NH snow and winters?

Do you think the landlord folds property tax into the price of the rent?

Most importantly, are you seriously suggesting that the poor are immune to the burden of property tax?

hokiefan
04-29-2016, 03:46 PM
Once a year, the local paper lists those who are in arrears. Much anticipated. Great for gossip in a small town, the list goes for four or five pages going back to those not paying for three years. Ah, the number of people you know is ummm depressing!


I've been on that list. Not fun. What ticked me off was that I'd arranged a payment plan (with interest) & they still put me on it.

Ours is paid out of the escrow account handled by our mortgage company so for now that's not something we have to worry about. When the house is paid off next spring then it will be something we have to deal with.

Cheers,

Bobby

Garret
04-29-2016, 03:47 PM
Hell, yes! The NH approach is highly regressive and favors the wealthy. And then think about the retired folks who have low incomes, but still need a place to live.

But thank you anyway for letting me buy stuff without any sales tax ;)

Ever look at the parking lots of the box stores in West Leb? 3/4 VT plates...

S.V. Airlie
04-29-2016, 03:47 PM
I've been on that list. Not fun. What ticked me off was that I'd arranged a payment plan (with interest) & they still put me on it.I have been. My land is owned by 4 siblings. My older brother's name is on the tax roll. WCMJohnston Et Al. I'm the "et al". I paid my share under my name. The assessor didn't like it. Didn't recognize "et al". Corrected. I know pay my brother my shares, he pays the taxes.

S.V. Airlie
04-29-2016, 03:51 PM
Hell, yes! The NH approach is highly regressive and favors the wealthy. And then think about the retired folks who have low incomes, but still need a place to live.That's Cooperstown, 75% of the population is over 75. Often, inherited their homes, widowed etc. Realestate here is high.

CWSmith
04-29-2016, 04:07 PM
But thank you anyway for letting me buy stuff without any sales tax ;)

Ever look at the parking lots of the box stores in West Leb? 3/4 VT plates...

I remember a woman telling me she only came to NH to buy her liquor. :) The state owns the stores. Tourism is an industry.

After she asked me a series of questions about wood stoves I wanted to tell her that we now have indoor plumbing.

I do recommend the maple syrup.

S.V. Airlie
04-29-2016, 04:20 PM
Ours is paid out of the escrow account handled by our mortgage company so for now that's not something we have to worry about. When the house is paid off next spring then it will be something we have to deal with.

Cheers,

BobbyOur land was inherited. No mortgage, nada. Been in the family since 1890's, a place for the farm animals when the family lived in town. Been in Cooperstown since 1793.

Garret
04-29-2016, 04:30 PM
...
I do recommend the maple syrup.

Yep, it's almost as good as VT's :p

elf
04-29-2016, 04:40 PM
There must be some communities in MA with no RE tax at all. My rate is 8.37% and it's astoundingly low compared to CT, for instance. In my personal opinion, as long as we're going to fund schools on the property tax, we should be embarassed to be paying so little.

CWSmith
04-29-2016, 04:41 PM
Yep, it's almost as good as VT's :p

I think we can draw in someone from Maine and Canada and have a debate on that. It would be delicious.

Garret
04-29-2016, 04:49 PM
I think we can draw in someone from Maine and Canada and have a debate on that. It would be delicious.

Actually, the best tasting maple syrup I've ever had was from northern Maine.

elf
04-29-2016, 05:08 PM
I get mine from NYState. The stuff from VT is grossly overpriced compared to what I buy.

And I usually get maple syrup powder rather than all that water in the syrup. The powder is fabulous on just about anything you would put maple syrup in.

CWSmith
04-29-2016, 05:11 PM
Actually, the best tasting maple syrup I've ever had was from northern Maine.

We get some high school students here every summer and many have never had real maple syrup. We take them out for blueberry pancakes and not one has ever complained.

Waddie
04-29-2016, 05:12 PM
That chart is a very limited picture of state and local revenues, even for schools.

My property tax has a state component, a local mill levy, a community college mill levy and a library system mill levy tacked onto the state mill levy. In addition, all personal property is taxed depending on valuation; cars, motorcycles, trailers, etc.

Sales tax is 9.25%, but only about 6% of that is state. That tax is levied on everything sold, including new cars, groceries, prescription drugs, etc. No exceptions. As the state has reduced their tax rates local government and institutions (like the community college) have levied major increases.

So overall we pay one of the highest property tax rates in the country.

regards,
Waddie

S.V. Airlie
04-29-2016, 05:14 PM
The founder of Cooperstown JF Cooper's father, wanted this area to be the maple syrup capital of the world. This year, I won't buy it. Weather was too fickle.

Rum_Pirate
04-30-2016, 08:08 AM
That chart is a very limited picture of state and local revenues, even for schools.

My property tax has a state component, a local mill levy, a community college mill levy and a library system mill levy tacked onto the state mill levy. In addition, all personal property is taxed depending on valuation; cars, motorcycles, trailers, etc.

Sales tax is 9.25%, but only about 6% of that is state. That tax is levied on everything sold, including new cars, groceries, prescription drugs, etc. No exceptions. As the state has reduced their tax rates local government and institutions (like the community college) have levied major increases.

So overall we pay one of the highest property tax rates in the country.

regards,
Waddie


Where is 'we' ?