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Ted Hoppe
03-23-2016, 12:16 PM
I have been thinking about our new age of terrorism in the West. It's more than this. When young men in West turn 18 regardless of race, creed or religion, most suddenly find themselves in the adult world with little direction. Some go to college, some find full-time work, others join the military and others float in chaos and cyberspace. it isn't any different for these young unaffiliated Muslim males

We think there’s a lot of cultural reinforcement about what it is to become a man. There is an unspoken line we draw and you’re not a man until you’ve done something really difficult. How can these young men from same and different cultures understand how to fit in when our own actualization of becoming a man is lacking. No wonder when young men by chance to find a peer group and purpose to their lives they take to it. That’s important in a society where a lot of young men don’t have either. We have such a screwed up generation. There is untold many young men not working, living at home, smoking copious amounts of weed and wasting the most productive parts of their lives playing video games. Others are packing guns on city streets as they run drugs, women and corners. We can look at this situations with ISIS and identifying as a jihadi as it does fill those same rolls to these estranged young men.

This is probably the first society in history that actively discourages an intelligent conversation about what manhood should require of men. (We also find an in ordinary amount of energy shaping our females.) Simultaneously, our society is asking adult males to be men. No wonder there is such confusion. But what’s a man, anyway? Society should help define it. So that all men with promise can achieve it. we must find a proper role for men and define the threshold of when a male becomes a man. For right now, everyone shrugs their shoulders and says, ‘You know, it’s actually not polite or correct to talk about creating and defining worth to our boys and young men. The society currently would rather see any younger males in our society become lost in games, drugs, porn, personal selfish indulgences and even radical ideologies.

We are all responsible for angry young men and small percentage of women. Our culture lacks the rituals and recognition that help assimilate our all our young men into moral, productive and valuable members of society.

The American way for the last 2 generations has been to lock them up in industry prisons, let them waste away in a drugged out/cyber space haze or to kill them with police or military actions. It's my opinion that this quite encompassing west inspired trend has proved to be a world wide failure.

CWSmith
03-23-2016, 12:28 PM
I blame shifting social priorities. When did becoming a millionaire evolve into the single greatest aspiration for everyone? People should make a living wage and some will make more, but can't we as a society say, "That's enough. The rest you share."?

I also blame isolation by a fascination with technology. I was talking this AM with a friend who is building electronic toys from easily affordable chip sets. He's having a ball! How many people just use it without having any desire to understand it. I stood behind a young woman just 20 min ago who was fiddling with her cell phone and preventing me from getting a bottle of water from the refrigerator case. Mindless! We need to elevate our thinking to include the "how" at least as much as the "what"!

People who perform a service to society need to be respected. I don't care if you run a Roto-Rooter all day. You're helping people and I respect that.

I blame our society for lost values first and foremost. If we had decent social values and thought of ourselves as part of something bigger, we would not lose our way so easily.

TomF
03-23-2016, 12:29 PM
I agree entirely, Ted. I think that we've little time or attention paid to helping people make a transition into adulthood - and it's presently more difficult, frankly, for young men than young women. I think that in part it's also fallout from the increasing mechanization and labour-saving processes used for doing the tasks which remain .. so we really don't need people as a labour force anymore. In fact, much of our growing labour force is to provide remedial services etc. controlling the parts of the population which are being left behind ...

I'm not sure of an answer. I know that there are any number of fine people who are really poorly suited to do many of the kinds of work which are left ... I also know that part of what's fuelling this issue is an exponential increase in the expectations of what any of us think a "good life" should look like. The cost of the stuff we apparently must have now, which never existed in our species' history before 20 years ago ...

I don't have a good answer, but I think that part of an answer is in labour-intensive work like producing high quality local food - which would sell at enough of a price to support the people who work to provide it in a modest way.

CWSmith
03-23-2016, 12:35 PM
I don't have a good answer, but I think that part of an answer is in labour-intensive work like producing high quality local food - which would sell at enough of a price to support the people who work to provide it in a modest way.

I keep thinking that Detroit is missing the boat on this. They seem to be determined to rebuild a traditional city when they could build a modern, forward-thinking agra-city. There are already people trying to make abandoned lots productive with both vegetables and fish. Our society needs new ways to think about things.

Osborne Russell
03-23-2016, 12:46 PM
I also agree. I think you are at or getting near what may the essence:


This is probably the first society in history that actively discourages an intelligent conversation about what manhood should require of men. (We also find an in ordinary amount of energy shaping our females.)

There are justified objections to the constraints of social definitions of manhood and womanhood. We have our definitions and in many respects they become more objectionable the more clearly we observe their effects. But it's naÔve bordering on stupid to believe that society can simply stop defining. "We'll just let the young people be free to figure it out for themselves, as they always have . . . " No they haven't. They can't. They grow into world where they're already made. That's bad enough. If, on top of it, older people deny that they even exist, what's a young person supposed to do? What would expect them to do, other than seek out those offering answers that are simple, even if absurd? How's a young person to know, if it's never been discussed?

Osborne Russell
03-23-2016, 12:50 PM
I don't have a good answer, but I think that part of an answer is in labour-intensive work like producing high quality local food - which would sell at enough of a price to support the people who work to provide it in a modest way.

Why should illegal aliens have all the fun? ;)

Kidding aside, I often think along those lines. Labor has to create status directly, not just give you money to buy things to give the appearance of status.

BrianY
03-23-2016, 12:59 PM
I think we should worry a lot less about "what it means to be a man" and " what it means to be a woman" and a lot more about "what it means to be an educated and well-developed human being". In my experience, the folks that worry about "what it means to be a man" and " what it means to be a woman"are most likely to be the least well-adjusted, most troubled people I know because they're constantly trying to live up to and mold themselves to fit sets of expectations - some imposed from within, others imposed from without - that quite often do not align with how and what they really are. They punish themselves for not living up to these imposed standards.

We cannot escape the realities of gender. It's a significant part of who we are. But we should also not be bound and limited by it.

Young folks are not prepared to be adults not because they don't know what it means to be a man or a woman but because they don't have the skills to negotiate the world on their own. Most kids are insulated and protected from the demands of real life by their parents. They rarely have to deal with failure and the consequences of not doing what they're supposed to. We hand our kids everything and expect little from them. They're not held accountable for their actions. Poor kids have a different set of challenges, of course, but the commonality is that few kids of any status or background are equipped with the basic life skills they need to live in the real world.

My wife teaches high school. She always says that if she was in charge, every kid would be required to demonstrate a few basic life skill before they can graduate. These would include balancing a checkbook, preparing a nutritious meal from unprocessed foods, using a telephone to make an inquiry, schedule an appointment or some other non-social purpose (kids don't know who to talk on the phone anymore), write a thank you note, address the envelope, affix a stamp and mail it, and sort, wash, dry and fold a load of laundry.

Peerie Maa
03-23-2016, 02:10 PM
We need to start from here
http://english-masterbulgaria-yora.weebly.com/uploads/7/7/8/8/7788017/9058532_orig.jpg
In order to facilitate achieving those higher levels communities need the resources to allow them to work and a market place in which they can sell their surplus.
The resources needed will vary from society to society. They may be as simple as access to fertile land and water with the peace and stability to get on and use them. The creation of a surplus usually finds its market, unless work needs to be done on infrastructure.
Other societies will need different resources, but if that society fails to facilitate the creation of those resources, it will be heading for trouble.

The thinking about solutions for curing extremism and terrorism needs to start at those basics. Providing those basics might require putting pressure on governments to direct aid towards those objectives for all of the population, whatever ethnicity, tribe, or religious sect that they belong to,

Keith Wilson
03-23-2016, 02:19 PM
While there are some good points being made, the numbers do NOT show that we in the west live in a 'new age of terrorism' That's hogwash. Yes, there's some terrorism, it's a serious problem in some places (parts of the Middle East, Nigeria) but not in the west, despite all the publicity. After 2001, terrorism deaths in the US have been under 20 per year. Get a grip, here.

http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/MacBlog_terrorist.jpg

TomF
03-23-2016, 02:41 PM
I think, Keith, that terrorism deaths are only the pointiest end of the stick. I think that youth employment rates, voter participation rates, incarceration rates etc. are perhaps better proxy indicators of how large the issues actually are. Each of which, I think, are also proxy indicators of lost productivity (defined broadly) in value produced within the culture.

Keith Wilson
03-23-2016, 03:14 PM
Tom, we no doubt have plenty of problems. But when Ted says "I have been thinking about our new age of terrorism in the West." as the first line of his post, he's talking about something that simply does not exist, although he goes on to bring up some good points. In the west, terrorism is decreasing. Has everybody forgotten about ETA, the Provisional IRA, the UDA, the Red Brigades, the Baader-Meinhof group, the FLQ, the FALN, the Japanese Red Army, and a whole bunch of others?

skuthorp
03-23-2016, 03:24 PM
".. so we really don't need people as a labour force anymore. In fact, much of our growing labour force is to provide remedial services etc. controlling the parts of the population which are being left behind Ö"
I agree with TomF in this. In the past we have had a big war to slough off the surplus young men, we cannot afford a big war now, if only because the people and politicians at home would be amongst the first to die. But a small war serves as a distraction to the domestic problems, shades of Orwell's 1984.

TomF
03-23-2016, 03:29 PM
Agreed about the various other terrorist groups which have trod the bloody stage.

I think that the 50% youth unemployment rates which slug so obligingly slung my way in another thread as an indication that I am a hopeless and softheaded bugger (:D) ... are actually more to the point. And that if this kind of exclusion isn't recognized and addressed, it is exactly where the next crop of extremist organizations will arise. I think it's exactly how the Islamist-in-the-2nd-generation meme is arising now, in places where there are large groups of fairly structurally excluded Muslim immigrants, like Belgium and France.

The terrorism may not be ascendant enough yet to do more than, uhm, terrify us on the news ... but the anger is real. I think, btw, the anger is very similar to that we're hearing among Trump's base. Same anger, different proximate solution, based on different cultural predecessors.

Peerie Maa
03-23-2016, 03:49 PM
But a small war serves as a distraction to the domestic problems, shades of Orwell's 1984.

You do not have to look to fiction, that is why Argentina attacked the Falklands.

Ted Hoppe
03-23-2016, 03:52 PM
While there are some good points being made, the numbers do NOT show that we in the west live in a 'new age of terrorism' That's hogwash. Yes, there's some terrorism, it's a serious problem in some places (parts of the Middle East, Nigeria) but not in the west, despite all the publicity. After 2001, terrorism deaths in the US have been under 20 per year. Get a grip, here.



We can also get lost in the difference between criminal, terror and terrorism. Many statisticians are dissuaded to include other forms of terror into the greater comprehensive accounting. If we include fire-arm related murders, the US leads the developed world in weaponized violence and murder by firearm.

skuthorp
03-23-2016, 03:55 PM
No wonder you need distractions. I f you include post-militar service suicides as combat casualties in the figures I wonder what the graph would look like. Aus's figures would take a jump.

Too Little Time
03-23-2016, 04:23 PM
We are all responsible for angry young men and small percentage of women. Our culture lacks the rituals and recognition that help assimilate our all our young men into moral, productive and valuable members of society.

The American way for the last 2 generations has been to lock them up in industry prisons, let them waste away in a drugged out/cyber space haze or to kill them with police or military actions. It's my opinion that this quite encompassing west inspired trend has proved to be a world wide failure.
And you stood by and watched. Or perhaps you were an active participant.

I don't know how your kids turned out. My kids turned out well.

I am not responsible for the kids of others. If I tried to tell someone's kids how to behave, I am sure they would object. Their objection makes them responsible.

Would I like society to be different? Sure. But some like the life they have and you object to.

mdh
03-23-2016, 06:42 PM
So wrong. I'm not responsible for one single terrorist act. Neither, I think, are any of you. Some people have natural instincts that tells them violence is wrong, and virtually all have a culture that teaches it. It's the quest for utopia that makes all the rules that oppress. One man's utopia, however, can be another's persecution. Unemployment is spread worldwide. It permiates virtually all communities, yet it's not Mormon, or Catholic, or Mennonite, or Baptist radicals that are building bombs.

Keith Wilson
03-23-2016, 06:59 PM
Many statisticians are dissuaded to include other forms of terror into the greater comprehensive accounting. If we include fire-arm related murders, the US leads the developed world in weaponized violence and murder by firearm.Sure. We have plenty of problems, and our levels of firearm violence are way too high But garden-variety murders aren't terrorism, if the word is to mean anything at all. And even the ordinary homicide rate has dropped by more than half in the US over the last 20 years.

http://ttag.zippykidcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Annual-homicide-rates.png

Ted Hoppe
03-23-2016, 08:34 PM
And you stood by and watched. Or perhaps you were an active participant.

I don't know how your kids turned out. My kids turned out well.

I am not responsible for the kids of others. If I tried to tell someone's kids how to behave, I am sure they would object. Their objection makes them responsible.

Would I like society to be different? Sure. But some like the life they have and you object to.

It takes a village.

Ted Hoppe
03-23-2016, 08:38 PM
Sure. We have plenty of problems, and our levels of firearm violence are way too high But garden-variety murders aren't terrorism, if the word is to mean anything at all. And even the ordinary homicide rate has dropped by more than half in the US over the last 20 years.

http://ttag.zippykidcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Annual-homicide-rates.png

Perhaps the numbers are less significant to many because the majority of murders happen in communities of color and there have been advances in medical treatment. Most now have access to terrific gunshot wound specialist doctors and teams in major metropolitan areas and regional areas where shootings are a regular occurrence. Something that did not exist 20 years ago in most places.

dbrown
03-23-2016, 10:44 PM
Look around guys,every road, bridge, building, car, truck,boat, ship, prison, park, etc, etc is being built, serviced, and recycled by millions of Americans who go to work every day, go home, mow grass, pay bills and taxes and would not read the first ten lines of this senseless drivel if they saw it. That makes me feel real good.

cathouse willy
03-23-2016, 11:54 PM
[QUOTE=dbrown;4840519]Look around guys,every road, bridge, building, car, truck,boat, ship, prison, park, etc, etc is being built, serviced, and recycled by millions of Americans who go to work every day, go home, mow grass, pay bills and taxes and would not read the first ten lines of this senseless drivel if they saw it. That makes me feel real good.[/QUO.TE]

As a white anglo saxon male I reject the idea that deranged islamic murderer's are my fault. It seems that all that ails the world is my doing and I say bullshyte to that. I've done my best to raise a family of caring people and they've turned out well. To say I'm responsible for the murders in the name of Islam is nonsense.

Gerarddm
03-24-2016, 12:14 AM
What drives terrorism now, and what drove the anarchists pre-WWI, is a sense of victimhood. I hurt, therefore I lash out. When you have organized victimhood, the effect metastasizes exponentially. When there is little or no hope, clearly anti-social behavior will bubble up to the surface, aided by early childhood brainwashing about said culture of victimhood. It's a long war; right education, right work, right relationships go a long way toward heading trouble off at the pass.

The pressure valve for the anarchist period was The Great War. I hope it doesn't take a similarly scaled calamity to overcome modern terrorism.

Peerie Maa
03-24-2016, 04:34 AM
So wrong. I'm not responsible for one single terrorist act. Neither, I think, are any of you. Some people have natural instincts that tells them violence is wrong, and virtually all have a culture that teaches it. It's the quest for utopia that makes all the rules that oppress. One man's utopia, however, can be another's persecution. Unemployment is spread worldwide. It permiates virtually all communities, yet it's not Mormon, or Catholic, or Mennonite, or Baptist radicals that are building bombs.

That is a bad dose of "I'm all right jack, pull up the ladder". If you are a part of society, you share responsibility for that societies ills.
You may well be right that unemployment id an important part of the problem, so vote for legislators at all levels who genuinely want to facilitate full employment.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 08:31 AM
That is a bad dose of "I'm all right jack, pull up the ladder". If you are a part of society, you share responsibility for that societies ills.
You may well be right that unemployment id an important part of the problem, so vote for legislators at all levels who genuinely want to facilitate full employment.

Well said! We share a world and a society. The failures of others will come back to bite us. We are all better if we vote and behave with a sense of responsibility for the common good and the needs of others.

Keith Wilson
03-24-2016, 08:54 AM
Perhaps the numbers are less significant to many because the majority of murders happen in communities of color and there have been advances in medical treatment. Most now have access to terrific gunshot wound specialist doctors and teams in major metropolitan areas and regional areas where shootings are a regular occurrence. Ah, so the homicide rate is down because fewer prole die of their wounds? Nope. That's true, but it's not the reason. The overall violent crime rate has decreased even more, and is now a less than a third of what it was 25 years ago. We still have too much violence and plenty of problems, no question. But 'a new age of terrorism' is simply not reality.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif

One could wonder why this enormous improvement in social conditions is not more widely known and celebrated.

Hugh Conway
03-24-2016, 09:08 AM
so vote for legislators at all levels who genuinely want to facilitate full employment.

in what form? Despite what the techno-idealists in the Bilge say there isn't need for full employment - in the west there isn't a need for those unemployed millions to work without government subsidies distorting the labor market. Subsidizing Walmart so they can employ millions to stock shelves (choose whatever menial insecure deadend modern job you wish) isn't providing a meaningful career or job satisfaction. Even developing markets like China had to distort their economy via a negative real savings rate to prop up demand for low skill workers.

In this current world an individual needs to do decent work to belong and have value. But the economy doesn't need (or for many of them it doesn't want) them to work. One or the other will have to change, without a change it's a tragic waste of human skills and potential. Perhaps the change could start by realizing we make the market, it's not some other entity. It's the actions of people (and these days their subservient bots)

Dan McCosh
03-24-2016, 09:12 AM
I keep thinking that Detroit is missing the boat on this. They seem to be determined to rebuild a traditional city when they could build a modern, forward-thinking agra-city. There are already people trying to make abandoned lots productive with both vegetables and fish. Our society needs new ways to think about things. Are you suggesting going back to picking cotton? Been there, done that.

Hugh Conway
03-24-2016, 09:21 AM
Are you suggesting going back to picking cotton? Been there, done that.

"back"? Many of your produce cash crops - like Strawberrys - are still picked by hand. I eagerly expect a graph telling me this isn't the grapes of wrath because they now have portajohns and water breaks.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 09:26 AM
Are you suggesting going back to picking cotton? Been there, done that.

Deep thinking, but no. I am suggesting small, local farms producing food for local people. It's being done, but if appreciated it could be done much more.

Growing cotton in Michigan is not a very clever idea.

Keith Wilson
03-24-2016, 09:27 AM
Bit chilly for that.

TomF
03-24-2016, 09:45 AM
Local agriculture, producing for local populations. Local sustainable forestry too, using methods like coppice management for some products (including firewood).

In the non-profit Health sector, people are increasingly using a derivation of balanced score card thinking called the "Triple Aim" to define how "value" is identified and pursued. The thinking is being used more broadly too, in the non-profit sector. In this model, the "value" of an intervention describes a relationship between:

the individual's experience (did a patient get high quality care, did a music student get instruction and performance opportunities that helped them develop swiftly?)
the community's experience (is population health improving because this intervention occurs? Is a community's artistic life becoming more vibrant?)\
sustainability (what's the cost/capita for the intervention, the administrative burden?)


Value means hitting some key performance indicator targets in each of those theme areas, not just in one of them.

I think we've a similar societal shift to make when talking about the efficiency of our economic arrangements. We need to talk about the individual (does this guy have meaningful work), about the community (how's the socio-economic health of the target population trending?), and is such an investment sustainable ($/capita investment, opportunity cost metric, environmental cost, etc.).

Our advocacy organizations almost always fight for one of the points of the "Triple Aim" triangle, and give lip service to the other two ... implicitly assuming that there'll be "trickle down" or "trickle over" to the other sectors even if we don't focus on them. It's not working that way, or at least not particularly efficiently. Define the component elements which together combine to produce "value," and track metrics for them. Then you'll have a basis to shift your approach based on what the data tells you about how it's actually playing out.

JimD
03-24-2016, 09:48 AM
Deep thinking, but no. I am suggesting small, local farms producing food for local people. It's being done, but if appreciated it could be done much more.
Its currently being done in my back yard. Literally. In a couple hours a couple guys are coming to install a 1000 gallon rain harvesting tank. Sorry about the thread drift. I can say from my own personal experience that no one in youth seemed to care what kind of man or human being I turned out to be and it took me a very long time to figure it out on my own. Young people need positive influences to plot a course in life and many don't get them.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 09:49 AM
Urban farming: https://thefern.org/2015/04/urban-farming-is-booming-but-what-does-it-really-yield/

Detroit fish farmer: http://www.mlive.com/business/detroit/index.ssf/2013/04/detroit_urban_farmer_to_grow_t.html

Some background info: http://www.cityfarmer.info/2013/06/11/detroits-urban-farms-are-nothing-new/

Urban farming is both practical and life-enriching.

Hugh Conway
03-24-2016, 09:49 AM
I am suggesting small, local farms producing food for local people. It's being done, but if appreciated it could be done much more.

That sounds feudal.

TomF
03-24-2016, 09:51 AM
.... I can say from my own personal experience that no one in youth seemed to care what kind of man or human being I turned out to be and it took me a very long time to figure it out on my own. Young people need positive influences to plot a course in life and many don't get them.That's a very common experience, and IMO indicates something our society doesn't do very well. We're not alone in that.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 09:55 AM
Its currently being done in my back yard. Literally. In a couple hours a couple guys are coming to install a 1000 gallon rain harvesting tank. Sorry about the thread drift.

I am jealous! I want to do something smaller this summer.


I can say from my own personal experience that no one in youth seemed to care what kind of man or human being I turned out to be and it took me a very long time to figure it out on my own. Young people need positive influences to plot a course in life and many don't get them.

We all need others who are engaged in our lives. Parents count for a lot. Say what you will about scouting, but that sort of thing also defines a standard of expectation (that could be improved). As we get older, we still need friends to talk with as we work out solutions to new problems and to provide encouragement and support.

JimD
03-24-2016, 09:57 AM
That sounds feudal.
Not at all if the those farming the land own the farms.

JimD
03-24-2016, 10:02 AM
I am jealous! I want to do something smaller this summer...We've been thinking about it for a couple years now and finally found a small two person start up outfit, really just a man and his son, to do the install. I'm too busy with other projects to do it myself. Ours will be a simple affair with an above ground tank filled by the eave trough and hooked up to a pump, like in this photo

http://www.watercache.com/images/education/dry-system.jpg

Hugh Conway
03-24-2016, 10:02 AM
Not at all if the those farming the land own the farms.

owned or not it's hard, brutish labor in a cash economy.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 10:12 AM
owned or not it's hard, brutish labor in a cash economy.

See my links in #35. Farming is hard work, but fortunately there are people who find it satisfying and rewarding. The public pays a premium for high-quality, locally grown produce and some outfits are combining farming salad greens with raising fish for the table. Between this and your picking cotton remark, I think you have something very different in mind that does not match today's reality.

mdh
03-24-2016, 10:12 AM
That is a bad dose of "I'm all right jack, pull up the ladder". If you are a part of society, you share responsibility for that societies ills.
You may well be right that unemployment id an important part of the problem, so vote for legislators at all levels who genuinely want to facilitate full employment.

And you've got a bad case of "goofy". Pander all you want, but they want you just as dead as they want everybody that doesn't subscribe to their religeon. It has nothing to do with unemployment or wealth, it's an ideology, a religeon. Got it, genious? They understand one thing; death.

Peerie Maa
03-24-2016, 10:15 AM
in what form? Despite what the techno-idealists in the Bilge say there isn't need for full employment - in the west there isn't a need for those unemployed millions to work without government subsidies distorting the labor market. Subsidizing Walmart so they can employ millions to stock shelves (choose whatever menial insecure deadend modern job you wish) isn't providing a meaningful career or job satisfaction. Even developing markets like China had to distort their economy via a negative real savings rate to prop up demand for low skill workers.

In this current world an individual needs to do decent work to belong and have value. But the economy doesn't need (or for many of them it doesn't want) them to work. One or the other will have to change, without a change it's a tragic waste of human skills and potential. Perhaps the change could start by realizing we make the market, it's not some other entity. It's the actions of people (and these days their subservient bots)

If you start at Maslow's hierarchy of needs as I did in post#8. you will understand that individuals need certain things, one of the threads that goes up that pyramid from the base is the ability to work, as that delivers our needs at several levels. Any society that believes that any of its members should not do some kind of productive work is doomed to fail. The work will be structured to what is fit for purpose in the society in which it happens, so the "economy" must be structured to facilitate full employment. It is not one size fits all. When reconstructing Afghanistan (no don't laugh) the creation of a viable market and its infrastructure suitable for Afghanistan's needs should have been a vital consideration. Same thing applies to Detroit, or any other area suffering deprivation. Horses for courses and fitness for purpose in every different instance.

Peerie Maa
03-24-2016, 10:18 AM
And you've got a bad case of "goofy". Pander all you want, but they want you just as dead as they want everybody that doesn't subscribe to their religeon. It has nothing to do with unemployment or wealth, it's an ideology, a religeon. Got it, genious? They understand one thing; death.

All snark and no idea of any cause or it's solution.

mdh
03-24-2016, 10:18 AM
See my links in #35. Farming is hard work, but fortunately there are people who find it satisfying and rewarding. The public pays a premium for high-quality, locally grown produce and some outfits are combining farming salad greens with raising fish for the table. Between this and your picking cotton remark, I think you have something very different in mind that does not match today's reality.

And when you run in to the planting, fertilizing,handling, packageing, inspection, and reporting regulations applicable, you'll begin to realize what a bureaucratic nightmare we've created creating jobs in this country.

TomF
03-24-2016, 10:19 AM
And you've got a bad case of "goofy". Pander all you want, but they want you just as dead as they want everybody that doesn't subscribe to their religeon. It has nothing to do with unemployment or wealth, it's an ideology, a religeon. Got it, genious? They understand one thing; death.For what it's worth, the people I know who've talked about their own serious attempts at suicide have, to a person, described how they came to a tipping point in their minds; they were convinced that the despair/fear/pain of suicide was less than the despair/fear/pain of not killing themselves.

A suicide bomber must have come to some similar tipping point in their own minds. Since not every soldier, religious person, environmentalist, etc. gets to that point ... what makes that version of the ideology seem attractive?

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 10:28 AM
And when you run in to the planting, fertilizing,handling, packageing, inspection, and reporting regulations applicable, you'll begin to realize what a bureaucratic nightmare we've created creating jobs in this country.

And yet, it is already being done successfully.

Osborne Russell
03-24-2016, 10:38 AM
In the non-profit Health sector, people are increasingly using a derivation of balanced score card thinking called the "Triple Aim" to define how "value" is identified and pursued. The thinking is being used more broadly too, in the non-profit sector. In this model, the "value" of an intervention describes a relationship between:

the individual's experience (did a patient get high quality care, did a music student get instruction and performance opportunities that helped them develop swiftly?)
the community's experience (is population health improving because this intervention occurs? Is a community's artistic life becoming more vibrant?)\
sustainability (what's the cost/capita for the intervention, the administrative burden?)


Value means hitting some key performance indicator targets in each of those theme areas, not just in one of them.

I think we've a similar societal shift to make when talking about the efficiency of our economic arrangements. We need to talk about the individual (does this guy have meaningful work), . . .

You mention the value of the work to the individual but the Triple Aim doesn't.

Aim #4 will be along the lines of, "The Worker's Experience" (did the worker get personal satisfaction from his labor, was his labor recognized as conferring status by society, or did he feel isolated, alienated, manipulated, tricked, lied to, exploited, commodified and de-humanized by it?"

Dan McCosh
03-24-2016, 11:06 AM
Deep thinking, but no. I am suggesting small, local farms producing food for local people. It's being done, but if appreciated it could be done much more.

Growing cotton in Michigan is not a very clever idea.I do know people who came to Detroit to leave that lifestyle behind.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 11:09 AM
I do know people who came to Detroit to leave that lifestyle behind.

Did I say they would be forced to work on farms? I'm talking about options and rebuilding a more diverse city.

Too Little Time
03-24-2016, 11:16 AM
That is a bad dose of "I'm all right jack, pull up the ladder". If you are a part of society, you share responsibility for that societies ills.
You may well be right that unemployment id an important part of the problem, so vote for legislators at all levels who genuinely want to facilitate full employment.

There are certainly some of us who cause the ills. And certainly some of us who stand by and watch. But that does not mean that we are all responsible for the ills. We are certainly not responsible for ills that existed prior to our birth.

I would agree we have some responsibility to alleviate those ills. And I think the world would be a better place if we could.

The problem is that for many of the ills there is no solution. It is rather hard to solve ills that arise from religious differences or differences as to rights to land.


Education and employment are big problems in the US. But even with a black president there is little mention of the difficulties that blacks face in those areas. Problems that were/are caused by the federal government.

Dan McCosh
03-24-2016, 11:17 AM
Did I say they would be forced to work on farms? I'm talking about options and rebuilding a more diverse city. Who did say "they" would be forced to work on farms?

The Bigfella
03-24-2016, 11:33 AM
Ah, so the homicide rate is down because fewer prole die of their wounds? Nope. That's true, but it's not the reason. The overall violent crime rate has decreased even more, and is now a less than a third of what it was 25 years ago. We still have too much violence and plenty of problems, no question. But 'a new age of terrorism' is simply not reality.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif

One could wonder why this enormous improvement in social conditions is not more widely known and celebrated.


It's that 20 year lag effect from removing lead from petrol

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 11:36 AM
Are you suggesting going back to picking cotton? Been there, done that.


I do know people who came to Detroit to leave that lifestyle behind.


Who did say "they" would be forced to work on farms?

I've thought carefully about your posts and concluded you have nothing important to say. Be well, but until you can find a less ridiculous way to present your ideas I won't be bothering to reply.

Too Little Time
03-24-2016, 11:36 AM
Deep thinking, but no. I am suggesting small, local farms producing food for local people. It's being done, but if appreciated it could be done much more.
I like your idea. In fact, I proposed something similar in a recent thread. I proposed growing heirloom carrots. High profit - $20-40K/half acre.

No one liked that idea. They imagined onerous government regulations. It turns out there are few. Perhaps the health department might come out and make sure you are not growing root vegetables over a septic tank.

Now, I see many thinking how difficult the work is. The trick to farming is: doing the right work; and no more.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 11:40 AM
I like your idea. In fact, I proposed something similar in a recent thread. I proposed growing heirloom carrots. High profit - $20-40K/half acre.

No one liked that idea. They imagined onerous government regulations. It turns out there are few. Perhaps the health department might come out and make sure you are not growing root vegetables over a septic tank.

Now, I see many thinking how difficult the work is. The trick to farming is: doing the right work; and no more.

I am blessed to live in a rather rural, small town environment with lots of farms and farmer markets all around me. I can get everything from tomatoes to carrots to yogurt to lamb... I know that many people prefer cities, but that doesn't mean they can't have some of the same benefits. It is hard work, but for those who find satisfaction in it there is great benefit to society.

Dan McCosh
03-24-2016, 11:46 AM
I've thought carefully about your posts and concluded you have nothing important to say. Be well, but until you can find a less ridiculous way to present your ideas I won't be bothering to reply. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that you are going to replace some $5 billion in new high-rise construction with small farm lots. This will increase diversity.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 12:01 PM
I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that you are going to replace some $5 billion in new high-rise construction with small farm lots. This will increase diversity.

Why do we need to rebuild what already failed? Both land and building prices are near worthless. We can build a more diverse city with diverse industry and housing that is distributed with a smaller population. I offered one element of what should be a diverse solution.

Ted Hoppe
03-24-2016, 12:08 PM
High density housing and progressive modern organic farming shows tremendous foresight. People naturally want access to great good, services and open spaces. as the national demographics tilt toward older populations, this sounds sustainable.

Dan McCosh
03-24-2016, 12:48 PM
Why do we need to rebuild what already failed? Both land and building prices are near worthless. We can build a more diverse city with diverse industry and housing that is distributed with a smaller population. I offered one element of what should be a diverse solution. Why rebuild anything? Things do tend to wear out after 300 years or so.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 01:14 PM
^ Nonsense.

Let's paint a picture of one possible Detroit 30 years from now.

Starting from the present, land is virtually free. Housing needs to be pulled down. The automobile industry has left. High-density, inadequate employment, and low-quality housing bred crime.

Start up many smaller industries. One example is that I have friends who will pay $1000 for a good bicycle. There is no more metal in it than there is in my car seat. You pay for the skill of building. Build on the educational institutions in Michigan. They have great colleges. Use them to develop new industries.

Get serious about light rail and hire unemployed car builders to build light rail. That will rebuild some true and traditional factories with new industry.

Begin to build an new urban environment that will attract the computer industry from SoCal. Boston has great high-end industry in large part because of good schools, concerts, parks, and a vibrant city. A new Detroit can do it, too. You don't need the SoCal climate. You need a viable culture.

As you begin to rebuild you employ the building trades and that creates more jobs.

Keep the density low with small farms and parks. Invest in better mass transit. Not every square foot has to be a building that makes profit. The community can invest in what brings quality of life to a smaller, more dispersed city.

Now take the thread back to the starting point: Is it better to tell young people, "This is what we do and this is what you will do!" or do we say, "You can do anything that challenges you. We are a diverse society!"?

There is one catch: A society that thinks the greatest evil is paying taxes and the greatest goal is becoming rich will never rebuild Detroit. Only a society of working people doing diverse jobs, getting fair pay for their labor, and allowing for a higher quality of life can rebuild what failed before.

We can have the society we deserve if we will work as a society together, or we will get the society that our neglect and lack of vision allows.

Hugh Conway
03-24-2016, 01:23 PM
The work will be structured to what is fit for purpose in the society in which it happens, so the "economy" must be structured to facilitate full employment.

There's the unfortunate technological reality that our current society has eliminated the need for fulfilling work for many. I haven't heard a decent depiction of how fulfilling work can be created for this multitude. Digging holes and refilling them isn't good work. Some of the niche ideas proposed in this thread aren't really viable - a $1,000 bicycle is pretty much impossible to build in the US. It's hard to make a living selling $1,000 built bicycle frames in the US - the market just isn't that large. many "artisan' producers find themselves mechanizing to produce the quality customers want and then end up undercapitalized niche manfacturers - seen this happen with beer, bikes and guitars.

Peerie Maa
03-24-2016, 01:39 PM
There are certainly some of us who cause the ills. And certainly some of us who stand by and watch. But that does not mean that we are all responsible for the ills. We are certainly not responsible for ills that existed prior to our birth.

I would agree we have some responsibility to alleviate those ills. And I think the world would be a better place if we could.

The problem is that for many of the ills there is no solution. It is rather hard to solve ills that arise from religious differences or differences as to rights to land.


Education and employment are big problems in the US. But even with a black president there is little mention of the difficulties that blacks face in those areas. Problems that were/are caused by the federal government.

It is true that you are not responsible for your grandparents generations failings.
However unless you make the attempt to correct those failures you will be responsible for their ongoing effects.
That is why I proposed that you need to lobby and vote for legislators who are really committed to fixing those mistakes.

Peerie Maa
03-24-2016, 01:42 PM
There's the unfortunate technological reality that our current society has eliminated the need for fulfilling work for many. I haven't heard a decent depiction of how fulfilling work can be created for this multitude. Digging holes and refilling them isn't good work. Some of the niche ideas proposed in this thread aren't really viable - a $1,000 bicycle is pretty much impossible to build in the US. It's hard to make a living selling $1,000 built bicycle frames in the US - the market just isn't that large. many "artisan' producers find themselves mechanizing to produce the quality customers want and then end up undercapitalized niche manfacturers - seen this happen with beer, bikes and guitars.

So, you think that you understand the problems. Now you should do all you can to make the changes needed to fix them.
Something needs to improve or your society will spiral downwards into more unrest.

Dan McCosh
03-24-2016, 01:51 PM
^ Nonsense.

Let's paint a picture of one possible Detroit 30 years from now.

Starting from the present, land is virtually free. Housing needs to be pulled down. The automobile industry has left. High-density, inadequate employment, and low-quality housing bred crime.

Start up many smaller industries. One example is that I have friends who will pay $1000 for a good bicycle. There is no more metal in it than there is in my car seat. You pay for the skill of building. Build on the educational institutions in Michigan. They have great colleges. Use them to develop new industries.

Get serious about light rail and hire unemployed car builders to build light rail. That will rebuild some true and traditional factories with new industry.

Begin to build an new urban environment that will attract the computer industry from SoCal. Boston has great high-end industry in large part because of good schools, concerts, parks, and a vibrant city. A new Detroit can do it, too. You don't need the SoCal climate. You need a viable culture.

As you begin to rebuild you employ the building trades and that creates more jobs.

Keep the density low with small farms and parks. Invest in better mass transit. Not every square foot has to be a building that makes profit. The community can invest in what brings quality of life to a smaller, more dispersed city.

Now take the thread back to the starting point: Is it better to tell young people, "This is what we do and this is what you will do!" or do we say, "You can do anything that challenges you. We are a diverse society!"?

There is one catch: A society that thinks the greatest evil is paying taxes and the greatest goal is becoming rich will never rebuild Detroit. Only a society of working people doing diverse jobs, getting fair pay for their labor, and allowing for a higher quality of life can rebuild what failed before.

We can have the society we deserve if we will work as a society together, or we will get the society that our neglect and lack of vision allows. Granted, the Detroit area has become over-dependent on technology. It has the largest percentage of engineering jobs per capita in the country, and clearly there is no future in this kind of activity. All they accomplished was putting a man on the moon, after all. Or maybe creating the largest housing developer in the country. Or the industrial laser. There has been a severe lack of jobs in farming in the in the city proper, although there has been a few startups in bicycle making, expensive watches, and designer beer. The areas once dominated by Detroit--such as shipbuilding, aircraft, computers--have mainly gone away. All that is left are the 200,000 or so jobs in the technical and research centers in the area. I just don't know what we will do.

Ted Hoppe
03-24-2016, 01:53 PM
There's the unfortunate technological reality that our current society has eliminated the need for fulfilling work for many. I haven't heard a decent depiction of how fulfilling work can be created for this multitude. Digging holes and refilling them isn't good work. Some of the niche ideas proposed in this thread aren't really viable - a $1,000 bicycle is pretty much impossible to build in the US. It's hard to make a living selling $1,000 built bicycle frames in the US - the market just isn't that large. many "artisan' producers find themselves mechanizing to produce the quality customers want and then end up undercapitalized niche manfacturers - seen this happen with beer, bikes and guitars.

this resignation that technology is replacing fulfilling work is a key component of this problem. Idle hands and no validation is cracking our young folks. it is hard to build and grow anything. It takes a engaged mind and drive to create a business. A better mind and drive to make it successful. When we hear it can't be done it become a self fulfilling prophecy to the unskilled and unmotivated.

Incubation and nurture of great ideas that create meaningful and sustainable work comes from a culture of can do people. What CWS suggests is building that incubation infrastructure. It is the only way we are going to get a sustainable future for most folks and have the tools the address the new live/work challenges that most of the undereducated society will struggle with.

Too Little Time
03-24-2016, 01:53 PM
It is true that you are not responsible for your grandparents generations failings. However unless you make the attempt to correct those failures you will be responsible for their ongoing effects.

That is why I proposed that you need to lobby and vote for legislators who are really committed to fixing those mistakes.
It seems to be impossible to do what you suggest.

There are no legislators who want to correct the problem. There are few here who want to correct the problem. So you are saying I am responsible because you set an impossible goal. That is irrational on your part.

Peerie Maa
03-24-2016, 02:02 PM
It seems to be impossible to do what you suggest.

There are no legislators who want to correct the problem. There are few here who want to correct the problem. So you are saying I am responsible because you set an impossible goal. That is irrational on your part.

Where did I suggest that it was easy? I see so many examples of greed and feelings of entitlement on here that I know it will be a huge challenge.
The choice is to grab what you can and pull up the ladder, or work to plant a seed of change that will leave the place better than you found it. What is irrational about trying to do something to make your society better?

leikec
03-24-2016, 02:35 PM
I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that you are going to replace some $5 billion in new high-rise construction with small farm lots. This will increase diversity.

Dan, you seem to be deliberately trying to be obtuse, and I'm having a hard time understanding what point you are trying to make, which is rather odd given your background.

I grew up in Detroit in the 1960's and early 1970's and I've lived and worked there at times since then. I don't know the area as well as you, but I know enough to know that the urban agriculture idea has merit.

I don't think anyone is suggesting replacing 5 billion in new investment in high-rise construction with farming. What is being suggested is that there is a ton of vacant land in the city that may never see 5 billion bucks in big money development--and that at least some of that land could be used productively by urban farming projects.

Or or perhaps you are right--maybe people should sit around and hope and pray that Ford decides to build a new plant on their street, or they can wait forever for a condo project to come along...

Look, there's no question that Detroit needs traditional development investment, and the more of that the better. But the city has no shortage of vacant land, and what is the current number of decrepit, condemned buildings in the city? 5000? 10000?

Jeff C

Hugh Conway
03-24-2016, 02:42 PM
So, you think that you understand the problems. Now you should do all you can to make the changes needed to fix them.
Something needs to improve or your society will spiral downwards into more unrest.

Oh, clearly the great and merry UK isn't at all similar. No problems at all with disaffected youth and a lack of opportunity. No rioting youth, no chavs...

It's a global problem. Smug fingerpointing is part of why it persists.


What CWS suggests is building that incubation infrastructure. It is the only way we are going to get a sustainable future for most folks and have the tools the address the new live/work challenges that most of the undereducated society will struggle with.

I read CWS's suggestion as a repetition of the past; niche businesses are niche businesses and always will be. Microbreweries and boutique bikes aren't the future on a mass scale without a decrease in living standards - which is to me part and parcel of the return to small farms.

Sorry if as one working hard to start their own business for a similar niche I'm not all rosy and positive. It's lots of hard work with little remuneration with a large deck against you.

Dan McCosh
03-24-2016, 03:28 PM
Dan, you seem to be deliberately trying to be obtuse, and I'm having a hard time understanding what point you are trying to make, which is rather odd given your background.

I grew up in Detroit in the 1960's and early 1970's and I've lived and worked there at times since then. I don't know the area as well as you, but I know enough to know that the urban agriculture idea has merit.

I don't think anyone is suggesting replacing 5 billion in new investment in high-rise construction with farming. What is being suggested is that there is a ton of vacant land in the city that may never see 5 billion bucks in big money development--and that at least some of that land could be used productively by urban farming projects.

Or or perhaps you are right--maybe people should sit around and hope and pray that Ford decides to build a new plant on their street, or they can wait forever for a condo project to come along...

Look, there's no question that Detroit needs traditional development investment, and the more of that the better. But the city has no shortage of vacant land, and what is the current number of decrepit, condemned buildings in the city? 5000? 10000?

Jeff C^ As I've noted many times, the old, actual City of Detroit is about 15% of the metropolitan area these days. It is indeed mainly in sad shape. Housing abandonments total about 500,000. About 150,000 in the last 10 years. These are mainly houses owned by the city itself.
The vacant land, also often owned by the city, is about half industrial. Some of it has been vacant since the 1930s, much of it post WWII. The root cause of the abandoned land and housing in the city is a direct result of policies instituted in the early 1960s by the federal and state governments--mainly under the direction of George Romney. A mix of federal housing policy, taxation and mortgage fraud created this situation of abandoned property, which may be unique in the world in its scale, and that it has been so clearly defined by the political boundary of a fraction of the metropolitan area.
That said the other 85% of the population lives in a sprawling metropolitan area that is heavy with parkland, walkable and even vibrant residential areas, numerous cultural institutions, universities, etc. The local economy has been rebounding for several years, with major shortages developing in tech-related areas.
The weather still is lousy half the year.

Canoeyawl
03-24-2016, 03:31 PM
Is this why we must make America great again?

leikec
03-24-2016, 03:57 PM
^ As I've noted many times, the old, actual City of Detroit is about 15% of the metropolitan area these days. It is indeed mainly in sad shape. Housing abandonments total about 500,000. About 150,000 in the last 10 years. These are mainly houses owned by the city itself.
The vacant land, also often owned by the city, is about half industrial. Some of it has been vacant since the 1930s, much of it post WWII. The root cause of the abandoned land and housing in the city is a direct result of policies instituted in the early 1960s by the federal and state governments--mainly under the direction of George Romney. A mix of federal housing policy, taxation and mortgage fraud created this situation of abandoned property, which may be unique in the world in its scale, and that it has been so clearly defined by the political boundary of a fraction of the metropolitan area.
That said the other 85% of the population lives in a sprawling metropolitan area that is heavy with parkland, walkable and even vibrant residential areas, numerous cultural institutions, universities, etc. The local economy has been rebounding for several years, with major shortages developing in tech-related areas.
The weather still is lousy half the year.


Ok, so the question is where does Detroit go from here? I think urban agriculture can benefit the city, but obviously it is only one small piece of the puzzle given the enormity of the problem.

But I do think there is a flaw in the reasoning of people who think Detroit can magically morph into being another Auburn Hills just because somebody builds a new condo project or because a small high tech firm moves in and creates 50 new jobs. Both of those things would be good, but they're a drop in the bucket.

Urban agriculture is another drop in that bucket--it isn't a cure all, but it certainly can be of benefit--and in no way, shape, or form is the concept a threat to any of the people who moved north to get away from the particular form of rural existence you alluded to earlier.

Jeff C

Dan McCosh
03-24-2016, 04:13 PM
Ok, so the question is where does Detroit go from here? I think urban agriculture can benefit the city, but obviously it is only one small piece of the puzzle given the enormity of the problem.

But I do think there is a flaw in the reasoning of people who think Detroit can magically morph into being another Auburn Hills just because somebody builds a new condo project or because a small high tech firm moves in and creates 50 new jobs. Both of those things would be good, but they're a drop in the bucket.

Urban agriculture is another drop in that bucket--it isn't a cure all, but it certainly can be of benefit--and in no way, shape, or form is the concept a threat to any of the people who moved north to get away from the particular form of rural existence you alluded to earlier.

Jeff C My remark was based on a conversation with two southerners who I was working with on a greenhouse growing project. They were razzing each other about picking cotton. It took a while to get that they really had picked cotton, for a living. One of the customers for our project was the largest urban farmer in Detroit, who wanted 10,000 tomato plants. As for the city, it is just a chunk of land with a line drawn around it by politics. The people living there are a different matter.

CWSmith
03-24-2016, 04:14 PM
It is true that some of what I have suggested is niche industry. I'm just offering examples. Then again, in any city most of the population works in smaller companies doing specific tasks. The giant factories don't really employ the bulk of the population any more.

Take Boston, for example. It's a high-tech town with good jobs. It is forward-thinking and invests in education. It does not depend on a single industry.

Cities built on a single industry are like farms that depend on monoculture farming practices. It's all fine when it's fine, but it is very susceptible to single-point failure. Detroit was a monoculture farm growing cars. Now it's a wasteland.

Where I live it's small towns with woods and farms between. There is plenty of work, low unemployment, and very little crime. GM does not have a plant here, but there is diverse light industry and plenty of white-collar careers (notice I said "careers" and not "jobs").

I also notice that those who say it can't be done aren't mentioning the light rail idea. It's just one that would be "heavy industry" if this country ever decides to invest in better mass transit.

How many times do we hear that renewable energy kills jobs in the oil and coal industries? Why don't we ever hear about how it creates jobs everywhere else? You want to work? Build photovoltaics, light rail, wind power, etc. You will create jobs, reduce our involvement in foreign wars, and reduce pollution. Otherwise, I can't think of a single benefit.

If Detroit is waiting for the old jobs to return, I am content for it to wait until Hell freezes over. We all help those who help themselves. Old ideas have familiar consequences. New ideas solve new problems.

Peerie Maa
03-24-2016, 04:28 PM
Oh, clearly the great and merry UK isn't at all similar. No problems at all with disaffected youth and a lack of opportunity. No rioting youth, no chavs...



Isn't Ad Hom marvellous.

Says quite a lot about you.

leikec
03-24-2016, 04:31 PM
My remark was based on a conversation with two southerners who I was working with on a greenhouse growing project. They were razzing each other about picking cotton. It took a while to get that they really had picked cotton, for a living. One of the customers for our project was the largest urban farmer in Detroit, who wanted 10,000 tomato plants. As for the city, it is just a chunk of land with a line drawn around it by politics. The people living there are a different matter.

There's no need for a wall when a bunch of 5' tall flower pots can do the job... :D

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/smU2HEBR74c/maxresdefault.jpg


Jeff C

Hugh Conway
03-24-2016, 04:45 PM
Isn't Ad Hom marvellous.

Says quite a lot about you.

Pointing out that many nations in the West have the same problems isn't an ad hominem attack at all. Despite differences in language and flag their are more similarities between blighted ex-industrial bits of the US, UK and France than there are differences. This would suggest that it's a problem that hasn't been well solved by several different cultures and political traditions. "Reordering" society wholesale is a rather large task that's never been terribly successful.

It's not my fault that the UK hasn't been a great shiny success story for de-industrialization. That you point fingers instead of acknowledging this says quite a bit.

Too Little Time
03-24-2016, 06:44 PM
I read CWS's suggestion as a repetition of the past; niche businesses are niche businesses and always will be. Microbreweries and boutique bikes aren't the future on a mass scale without a decrease in living standards - which is to me part and parcel of the return to small farms.

Sorry if as one working hard to start their own business for a similar niche I'm not all rosy and positive. It's lots of hard work with little remuneration with a large deck against you.

There is nothing wrong with a niche business remaining a niche business.

There are a couple different reasons for starting a business. One reason is to supplement your current income - it is better to have some income in your free time than to have no income. Another reason is to provide a better income than you can get working for others. Measured against those 2 reasons there are a lot of niche businesses one can profit from.


But starting up a business does not entitle one to make money. You need a market as well as the appropriate skills. And, of course, be willing to work as hard as necessary.

Peerie Maa
03-25-2016, 03:36 AM
Oh, clearly the great and merry UK isn't at all similar. No problems at all with disaffected youth and a lack of opportunity. No rioting youth, no chavs...

It's a global problem. Smug fingerpointing is part of why it persists.





Pointing out that many nations in the West have the same problems isn't an ad hominem attack at all. Despite differences in language and flag their are more similarities between blighted ex-industrial bits of the US, UK and France than there are differences. This would suggest that it's a problem that hasn't been well solved by several different cultures and political traditions. "Reordering" society wholesale is a rather large task that's never been terribly successful.

It's not my fault that the UK hasn't been a great shiny success story for de-industrialization. That you point fingers instead of acknowledging this says quite a bit.

If that is not Ad Hom its a dammed good imitation.
All of my comments apply to all democratic societies, that most people engaged in this thread are from the USA seems to be the root cause of your thinking that my comments are only about the US.

The Bigfella
03-25-2016, 03:55 AM
If that is not Ad Hom its a dammed good imitation.
All of my comments apply to all democratic societies, that most people engaged in this thread are from the USA seems to be the root cause of your thinking that my comments are only about the US.


Ha ha.... you complaining about Ad Homs is a hoot after your shot the other day. Don't worry though Nick, I won't do the same to you. You can have that low ground all to yourself

Hugh Conway
03-25-2016, 04:31 AM
If that is not Ad Hom its a dammed good imitation.
All of my comments apply to all democratic societies, that most people engaged in this thread are from the USA seems to be the root cause of your thinking that my comments are only about the US.

The root cause of my comment was you saying "your" - bolding mine.

So, you think that you understand the problems. Now you should do all you can to make the changes needed to fix them.
Something needs to improve or your society will spiral downwards into more unrest.

given the last few comments the "smug finger pointing" is accurate, not an ad hominem.

Peerie Maa
03-25-2016, 04:44 AM
There's the unfortunate technological reality that our current society has eliminated the need for fulfilling work for many. I haven't heard a decent depiction of how fulfilling work can be created for this multitude. Digging holes and refilling them isn't good work. Some of the niche ideas proposed in this thread aren't really viable - a $1,000 bicycle is pretty much impossible to build in the US. It's hard to make a living selling $1,000 built bicycle frames in the US - the market just isn't that large. many "artisan' producers find themselves mechanizing to produce the quality customers want and then end up undercapitalized niche manfacturers - seen this happen with beer, bikes and guitars.


The root cause of my comment was you saying "your" - bolding mine.


given the last few comments the "smug finger pointing" is accurate, not an ad hominem.

So, you are allowed to say "our" but I am not allowed to reply with "your". I think that you need to rethink that.

Dannybb55
03-25-2016, 06:01 AM
I think that we have reached our limit. The myth of continuous development of the economy at the expense of the ecology. As for the younger generation, the one's that come my way are entitled little shots that expect a full paycheck for no effort, knowledge, investment in tools. In this county they also demand forty hours of cigarette breaks a week. Most employers prefer to hire people over 50 because they will out work the children. As for the middle east, fill in the Suez, take oil off of the commodities market and abandon the whole region.

Dan McCosh
03-25-2016, 09:34 AM
There's no need for a wall when a bunch of 5' tall flower pots can do the job... :D

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/smU2HEBR74c/maxresdefault.jpg


Jeff C This photo is three blocks from an urban garden, also on the Detroit border. It's also about a quarter of a mile from another urban garden in Detroit. The pots are indeed controversial. So is a proposed dog park. So are the urban gardens. (It's also on the same block where Clint Eastwood filmed Grand Torino.)

Dan McCosh
03-25-2016, 09:42 AM
It is true that some of what I have suggested is niche industry. I'm just offering examples. Then again, in any city most of the population works in smaller companies doing specific tasks. The giant factories don't really employ the bulk of the population any more.

Take Boston, for example. It's a high-tech town with good jobs. It is forward-thinking and invests in education. It does not depend on a single industry.

Cities built on a single industry are like farms that depend on monoculture farming practices. It's all fine when it's fine, but it is very susceptible to single-point failure. Detroit was a monoculture farm growing cars. Now it's a wasteland.

Where I live it's small towns with woods and farms between. There is plenty of work, low unemployment, and very little crime. GM does not have a plant here, but there is diverse light industry and plenty of white-collar careers (notice I said "careers" and not "jobs").

I also notice that those who say it can't be done aren't mentioning the light rail idea. It's just one that would be "heavy industry" if this country ever decides to invest in better mass transit.

How many times do we hear that renewable energy kills jobs in the oil and coal industries? Why don't we ever hear about how it creates jobs everywhere else? You want to work? Build photovoltaics, light rail, wind power, etc. You will create jobs, reduce our involvement in foreign wars, and reduce pollution. Otherwise, I can't think of a single benefit.

If Detroit is waiting for the old jobs to return, I am content for it to wait until Hell freezes over. We all help those who help themselves. Old ideas have familiar consequences. New ideas solve new problems. Don't know where you live. Is the population four million or so? Could the area handle two million newcomers in the next 10 years?

bobbys
03-25-2016, 10:32 AM
You do not have to look to fiction, that is why Argentina attacked the Falklands.
.

Correction, they wanted to remove the occupiers that refuse to negotiate as President Obama asked..

bobbys
03-25-2016, 11:00 AM
I have been thinking about our new age of terrorism in the West. It's more than this. When young men in West turn 18 regardless of race, creed or religion, most suddenly find themselves in the adult world with little direction. Some go to college, some find full-time work, others join the military and others float in chaos and cyberspace. it isn't any different for these young unaffiliated Muslim males

We think thereís a lot of cultural reinforcement about what it is to become a man. There is an unspoken line we draw and youíre not a man until youíve done something really difficult. How can these young men from same and different cultures understand how to fit in when our own actualization of becoming a man is lacking. No wonder when young men by chance to find a peer group and purpose to their lives they take to it. Thatís important in a society where a lot of young men donít have either. We have such a screwed up generation. There is untold many young men not working, living at home, smoking copious amounts of weed and wasting the most productive parts of their lives playing video games. Others are packing guns on city streets as they run drugs, women and corners. We can look at this situations with ISIS and identifying as a jihadi as it does fill those same rolls to these estranged young men.

This is probably the first society in history that actively discourages an intelligent conversation about what manhood should require of men. (We also find an in ordinary amount of energy shaping our females.) Simultaneously, our society is asking adult males to be men. No wonder there is such confusion. But whatís a man, anyway? Society should help define it. So that all men with promise can achieve it. we must find a proper role for men and define the threshold of when a male becomes a man. For right now, everyone shrugs their shoulders and says, ĎYou know, itís actually not polite or correct to talk about creating and defining worth to our boys and young men. The society currently would rather see any younger males in our society become lost in games, drugs, porn, personal selfish indulgences and even radical ideologies.

We are all responsible for angry young men and small percentage of women. Our culture lacks the rituals and recognition that help assimilate our all our young men into moral, productive and valuable members of society.

The American way for the last 2 generations has been to lock them up in industry prisons, let them waste away in a drugged out/cyber space haze or to kill them with police or military actions. It's my opinion that this quite encompassing west inspired trend has proved to be a world wide failure..

many Young Black men grow up without Fathers, Young people are taught a Baby is just a mass off goo , We now live in John Lennons Imagine world of no religion and the ten Commandments are mocked, Everyone gets a trophy for participating, Even if one gets to Kollege like David everyone gets a A, It's not one fault if you blast someone else with a gun, it's the guns fault, The music is filled with rappers making women dancing hoes in the videos.. .

Liberal replys are natural foods, no guns, no religion, No oil, no sex sin unless it's a Conservitive, .

if only we can drive around in a electric car munching carrots like bugs bunny.

TomF
03-25-2016, 11:44 AM
This liberal has a whole lot to say about the huge benefits of fathers. In fact, there have been a couple of threads just the last few days talking about how young men in particular aren't getting what they need to make good transitions into adulthood - part of that too is fathering.

This liberal has also been talking about the need for young men to have actual, meaningful, productive work. That can include growing carrots, but it's hardly the only option. If you want to make a contribution to the thread, I'm all ears. I'd like to think, for instance, that businesses like the one you run could be part of a solution - probably are already, for some of the guys you hire.

So quit bitching, trying to score points which are ridiculously off-base, and ante up with the good stuff you have. It's maddening that you so rarely offer it.

CWSmith
03-25-2016, 01:23 PM
Don't know where you live. Is the population four million or so? Could the area handle two million newcomers in the next 10 years?

Why would I want to or need to? Detroit has problems that it needs to solve. Some of the other big cities will follow soon enough if they fail to diversify. The question is whether they will attempt a solution by repeating the past or by inventing a new future. We adapted. The town down the road had a rough time when the air base closed. Now it's high tech and prospering. They changed. They adapted.

SullivanB
03-25-2016, 02:26 PM
This interview of Chris Hedges is quite relevant to the discussion.

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/chris_hedges_on_the_terrorist_attacks_in_brussels_ 20160324

bobbys
03-25-2016, 03:14 PM
This liberal has a whole lot to say about the huge benefits of fathers. In fact, there have been a couple of threads just the last few days talking about how young men in particular aren't getting what they need to make good transitions into adulthood - part of that too is fathering.

This liberal has also been talking about the need for young men to have actual, meaningful, productive work. That can include growing carrots, but it's hardly the only option. If you want to make a contribution to the thread, I'm all ears. I'd like to think, for instance, that businesses like the one you run could be part of a solution - probably are already, for some of the guys you hire.

So quit bitching, trying to score points which are ridiculously off-base, and ante up with the good stuff you have. It's maddening that you so rarely offer it.
.

The Person that started the thread stated young men are useing drugs, guns etc.

I post something but I'm " bitching" .
.

I have hired many. Ex cons, people with drug additions, AA members taking time off so they can go to meetings, Built a rescue mission.

in fact what roofers come like Boy Scouts.

You are free to start a company and hire these people.

Maybe it's easier. To be rude to me.

Ted Hoppe
03-25-2016, 03:20 PM
This interview of Chris Hedges is quite relevant to the discussion.

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/chris_hedges_on_the_terrorist_attacks_in_brussels_ 20160324

another way to look at this is, the middle eastern immigrants and refugees have become aware how much better it is Europe. People with families, young men and women have seen an increase exposure to western culture due to technology and mass communications. They got huge doses of how great it is to live under economic and democratic freedom. For most without great prospects, it wasmuch easier to leave for a place that is organized rather than build something from scratch where the rules are squarely against them.

The Arab Spring was more than a political uprising. It was the disorgazed youthful Muslim world waking up to the fact there is a more comfortable life available in places that have running water, safer streets, electrical power and Internet communications. The anger and resentment is that no matter where they go, their lives are still crappy relative to others. These young folks raise in war and social uphevel aren't finding answers along the way to keep thier identity and are not willing to assimilate to fit in.

SullivanB
03-25-2016, 04:14 PM
another way to look at this is, the middle eastern immigrants and refugees have become aware how much better it is Europe. People with families, young men and women have seen an increase exposure to western culture due to technology and mass communications. They got huge doses of how great it is to live under economic and democratic freedom. For most without great prospects, it wasmuch easier to leave for a place that is organized rather than build something from scratch where the rules are squarely against them.

The Arab Spring was more than a political uprising. It was the disorgazed youthful Muslim world waking up to the fact there is a more comfortable life available in places that have running water, safer streets, electrical power and Internet communications. The anger and resentment is that no matter where they go, their lives are still crappy relative to others. These young folks raise in war and social uphevel aren't finding answers along the way to keep thier identity and are not willing to assimilate to fit in.

Two things I think you've not mentioned that are in the mix: (1) the near constant war and social upheaval in many of the places they're fleeing and (2) they often remain largely isolated from other populations in their destination countries and do not enjoy the same privileges, so that they become discontent and ripe for radicalization.

Captain Intrepid
03-25-2016, 04:21 PM
.

The Person that started the thread stated young men are useing drugs, guns etc.

I post something but I'm " bitching" .
.

I have hired many. Ex cons, people with drug additions, AA members taking time off so they can go to meetings, Built a rescue mission.

in fact what roofers come like Boy Scouts.

You are free to start a company and hire these people.

Maybe it's easier. To be rude to me.

If you want your opinions to be treated with respect, you might want to drop the troll act. You're much more interesting and add so much more to this board when you're not pretending to be an idiot.

bobbys
03-25-2016, 04:27 PM
If you want your opinions to be treated with respect, you might want to drop the troll act. You're much more interesting and add so much more to this board when you're not pretending to be an idiot.
.

I have filed that along with " bitching"

Osborne Russell
03-25-2016, 06:28 PM
Two things I think you've not mentioned that are in the mix: (1) the near constant war and social upheaval in many of the places they're fleeing and (2) they often remain largely isolated from other populations in their destination countries and do not enjoy the same privileges, so that they become discontent and ripe for radicalization.

Not to mention that due to oil their leaders don't represent them and their countries don't belong to them.

Dan McCosh
03-25-2016, 06:30 PM
Why would I want to or need to? Detroit has problems that it needs to solve. Some of the other big cities will follow soon enough if they fail to diversify. The question is whether they will attempt a solution by repeating the past or by inventing a new future. We adapted. The town down the road had a rough time when the air base closed. Now it's high tech and prospering. They changed. They adapted. I'm just describing the Detroit I grew up in and live in today. I still don't get what it means to "diversify", from an economic base that incorporates virtually all of modern technology and capabilities. Diversify to what?

Hugh Conway
03-25-2016, 07:15 PM
I'm just describing the Detroit I grew up in and live in today. I still don't get what it means to "diversify", from an economic base that incorporates virtually all of modern technology and capabilities. Diversify to what?

Cottage industries and subsistence farming (on polluted land) is the answer I believe.

CWSmith
03-25-2016, 07:23 PM
Building a city that someone wants to return to is the answer. Are they lining up to return home now? If you improve the quality of life, or begin to build a framework that attracts investment back to the ruins, you can bootstrap your way to a viable city.

But, hey, I have a high-tech job in a beautiful part of the country with virtually no crime, so what do I care?

Waddie
03-25-2016, 08:54 PM
Don't underestimate the role of pop culture and it's influence on attitudes. In a home with a functional father (not a drunk or asshole himself) and a nurturing mother, the attractions of pop culture can be minimized and that young person grow up with a pretty good set of values, attitudes and aspirations. Sometimes that can be accomplished in a single parent home, but not usually, not easily. Kids today are raised as much by the peer group the fall into and the pop culture they adopt as their own. I used to tell parents to know who their kids hang out with, and what kind of people they are, 'cause your kid is probably going to be like them. But the kid with no parental involvement is often adrift with no social compass, and will fall into all sorts of bad habits and attitudes. And the habits we form determine almost everything about us. Your habits define you. Unfortunately, pop culture offers little in the way of positive guidance, so it's no substitute for good parenting. What good parenting actually does is teach good habits. Pop culture, the thing that is raising your kid if you aren't there, ain't built to do that.....

Males in the Mideast or the West aren't different in any significant respect. Both look for acceptance and approval. Either you get that at home or it's "earned" within the peer group. Many times even if parents offer approval throughout childhood the young man must still have the validation of the peer group. And the price to earn that respect can be high, often requiring acts of bravery and facing danger. Who says there's no "rite of passage" anymore? It's still there, strong as ever, you just don't recognize it because you live in a white bread world. To you binge drinking in college is a rite of passage.

And Keith is right about murder rates falling to all time lows. But he misses a couple points. It's falling because the population is aging, and old people no longer aspire to kill each other. Prison sentences have been dramatically lengthened. And abortion is now readily available, and performed around 50 million times since Roe V Wade. These factors have reduced most crime rates. However, we do still lead the developed world in murder rates; but hell, we lead in most other crime categories too.

While these rates have gone down dramatically overall, they haven't dropped for those kids growing up in urban ghettos. That drug infested, no education, no employment, no future institution is as bad as ever. BTW; it wasn't the gay community that was hardest hit by AIDS in this country, it was urban ghetto. You really think it's as simple as growing your own food in some small plots?

regards,
Waddie

CWSmith
03-25-2016, 09:14 PM
You really think it's as simple as growing your own food in some small plots?

No, I think as I said above that it is as simple as (1) providing a child with a role model and (2) providing a young person with hope for a viable future. There is no hope in places like Detroit today. There is no hope in trying to repeat the past. A new model for a city where young people see people pursuing occupations they enjoy and engaging with the rest of society will show hope for the future. Small farms are actually a symbol for commitment and attachment to a place.

But, hey, like I said, I don't need to fix Detroit. I already live in a place with good jobs, a viable economy, low crime, clean air and water, and a bright future. It is actually very much like what I tried to describe with diverse industry and white collar jobs, farms and forests, fishing streams, and stripers in the surf. Just, don't bring your old ideas here. We don't need them.

Waddie
03-25-2016, 10:42 PM
CWSmith; But, hey, like I said, I don't need to fix Detroit. I already live in a place with good jobs, a viable economy, low crime, clean air and water, and a bright future. It is actually very much like what I tried to describe with diverse industry and white collar jobs, farms and forests, fishing streams, and stripers in the surf. Just, don't bring your old ideas here. We don't need them.

Yep, it's not your problem; you live in Utopia.

regards,
Waddie

slug
03-26-2016, 12:21 AM
No, I think as I said above that it is as simple as (1) providing a child with a role model and (2) providing a young person with hope for a viable future. There is no hope in places like Detroit today. There is no hope in trying to repeat the past. A new model for a city where young people see people pursuing occupations they enjoy and engaging with the rest of society will show hope for the future. Small farms are actually a symbol for commitment and attachment to a place.

But, hey, like I said, I don't need to fix Detroit. I already live in a place with good jobs, a viable economy, low crime, clean air and water, and a bright future. It is actually very much like what I tried to describe with diverse industry and white collar jobs, farms and forests, fishing streams, and stripers in the surf. Just, don't bring your old ideas here. We don't need them.


No hope for Detroit ??? Snap out of it.

people float across the straits of Florida in rubber innertubes, ride the death train, walk across the dam desert and risk thier life to get to America.

detroit is an American city.

If liberals and thier goofy politicians stand down..... get out of the way...Detroit will rise again.

CWSmith
03-26-2016, 07:24 AM
No hope for Detroit ??? Snap out of it.

people float across the straits of Florida in rubber innertubes, ride the death train, walk across the dam desert and risk thier life to get to America.

detroit is an American city.

If liberals and thier goofy politicians stand down..... get out of the way...Detroit will rise again.

slug, be smart. I have been struggling to explain to the negative types that new ideas can fix new problems. I get back nonsense no better than yours. I've posted enough attempts. I no longer wish to waste my time with fools. Read the whole thread and then talk to someone who finds your nonsense entertaining.

However, if you are capable of thinking about new ideas, try this: https://blog.doortodoororganics.com/michigan/how-urban-farming-can-save-detroit-part-1-a-return-to-its-roots/

Dan McCosh
03-26-2016, 09:07 AM
Cottage industries and subsistence farming (on polluted land) is the answer I believe. Interesting idea. Maybe Central Park in NYC would be a good place to start. You could employ the residents in the South Bronx growing vegetables.