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goanywhere
01-18-2016, 06:47 AM
I know that there are Hartley 16's out there with junk rigs on them. I really like unstayed masts and the junk rig is something I am really keen to try. The rigging on my newly acquired 16 is in quite good nick but there are a few signs of wear and tear, meaning that a renovation is going to be in store in the not too distant future. I've read heaps about junk rigs and I think it would be perfect for a small cruiser like the Hartley TS16.

Has anyone here had any experience with junk rigs, and on Hartley 16's in particular?

JimD
01-18-2016, 11:16 AM
...Has anyone here had any experience with junk rigs, and on Hartley 16's in particular?

Not me, but curious. Is there a particular cut of junk sail you have in mind? Some will work better. Others are just plain cool to look at.

Gary Dierking
01-18-2016, 01:59 PM
I know that there are Hartley 16's out there with junk rigs on them. I really like unstayed masts and the junk rig is something I am really keen to try. The rigging on my newly acquired 16 is in quite good nick but there are a few signs of wear and tear, meaning that a renovation is going to be in store in the not too distant future. I've read heaps about junk rigs and I think it would be perfect for a small cruiser like the Hartley TS16.

Has anyone here had any experience with junk rigs, and on Hartley 16's in particular?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21351227/Tamanu1-Fiji2014.jpg

I made this 95 sq ft cambered junk rig and used it on two different outrigger canoes, this one being 20 ft. I've used many rigs over the years but nothing inspires
the confidence to go into harm's way like the junk rig. It goes to weather really well, tacks quickly and of course reefs almost instantly. A bitch to build but a joy to sail.

brucemoffatt
01-18-2016, 04:12 PM
Have you also considered a balance lug rig? Much easier to make, fewer parts. Same unstayed mast structural details as the junk rig.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-18-2016, 04:38 PM
Go to youtube and search for Mingming2

WX
01-18-2016, 04:57 PM
I've Junk rigged a Hartley 24.
You will get plenty of help here. http://www.junkrigassociation.org/
I'm also happy to answer any questions...assuming I know the answers.;)

goanywhere
01-19-2016, 02:20 AM
I've Junk rigged a Hartley 24.
You will get plenty of help here. http://www.junkrigassociation.org/
I'm also happy to answer any questions...assuming I know the answers.;)

Thanks WX. I joined the JRA yesterday. Looks very informative. I posted a help thread there a few minutes ago. Hoping to get some good advice on this style of sail.

As a first question, which design did you end up with on yours? There seem to be quite a few design options for these sails.

goanywhere
01-19-2016, 03:49 AM
I made this 95 sq ft cambered junk rig and used it on two different outrigger canoes, this one being 20 ft. I've used many rigs over the years but nothing inspires
the confidence to go into harm's way like the junk rig. It goes to weather really well, tacks quickly and of course reefs almost instantly. A bitch to build but a joy to sail.

I have built a leg-o-mutton sprit sail (actually 2) so sail making isn't a scary option for me. I think from the look of the ones I have seen that they are yes, a bit fiddly, but certainly don't appear difficult in the technical sense. I am thinking of a single cambered sail with 5-6 batens. I have to do the math yet but something around 200 sq ft. seems a good workable size, both to afford the best seagoing in light air, but because it is so easily reefed, a good safe sail in the rough stuff.

My biggest question is where to place the mast. Do I install a tabernacle forward of the current position, or simply strengthen the foredeck and step it. For a mast I'm looking into using an aluminium tapered flagpole. They are affordable and make excellent masts I believe.

WX
01-19-2016, 03:52 AM
Thanks WX. I joined the JRA yesterday. Looks very informative. I posted a help thread there a few minutes ago. Hoping to get some good advice on this style of sail.

As a first question, which design did you end up with on yours? There seem to be quite a few design options for these sails.
.
I went with a cambered panel as developed by Arne Kverneland.

http://www.junkrigassociation.org/arne

WX
01-19-2016, 04:00 AM
http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/mtwarning/New%20yard/20151016_103851_zps8regtc5x.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/mtwarning/media/New%20yard/20151016_103851_zps8regtc5x.jpg.html)[/img]

Thorne
01-19-2016, 01:06 PM
I have built a leg-o-mutton sprit sail (actually 2) so sail making isn't a scary option for me. I think from the look of the ones I have seen that they are yes, a bit fiddly, but certainly don't appear difficult in the technical sense. I am thinking of a single cambered sail with 5-6 batens. I have to do the math yet but something around 200 sq ft. seems a good workable size, both to afford the best seagoing in light air, but because it is so easily reefed, a good safe sail in the rough stuff.

My biggest question is where to place the mast. Do I install a tabernacle forward of the current position, or simply strengthen the foredeck and step it. For a mast I'm looking into using an aluminium tapered flagpole. They are affordable and make excellent masts I believe.

I would STRONGLY advise that you build the new sail (whatever it ends up being) with the same CE / sail balance as the original. Otherwise even if you move the mast you may end up with severe lee or weather helm that you can't correct. Since you intend to build the sail from scratch this shouldn't be too difficult.

goanywhere
01-19-2016, 02:51 PM
Thanks Thorne. Yes, balancing the sail is exactly that, locating the TYPICAL CE with the hull's CLR. I am no expert but I have some understanding of the issue of balancing the CE of the sail plan with the CLR of the boat. The CE is mostly a function of the sail plan, and what ever is subject to the wind. The CLR is a function of the hull and everything that is below the waterline. In this balancing act, the mast position is the servant, not the master, unless it is just not practical to move the mast position, in which case the sail plan must take the mast position into account. In the case of the Hartley, it is possible to move the mast forward if the CE of the sail plan warrants it. Arne Kverneland who I have had some correspondence with on the Junk Rig Association forum has suggested a mast position forward of the current one, but this is based on his recommended sail plan, and is only a suggestion.

I can assure you that I will not take tools to relocate the mast position if I don't need to. The mast will have to be different, but not necessarily in a different position.

WX
01-19-2016, 04:26 PM
Steve what you need is a copy of Practical Junk Rig. However I will get mine out later and look up the relevant section. Your mast will go just forward of the cabin and I think the CE changes by a few percent but I'll check that for you. Any advice from Arne is gold btw. He has been experimenting with JR since the early 90s

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-19-2016, 05:14 PM
Derek Van Loan's "Design and Build..." is worthwhile.

goanywhere
01-19-2016, 05:17 PM
Yes WX, I intend to buy a copy of that book. That is where Arne recommends the mast go. And he has given me some good advice as to how to step the mast as well. Getting value from both this forum and the JRA forum already!

JDMH
01-19-2016, 05:34 PM
Australian Amateur Boatbuilding & Kitboats magazine #92 for Jan/Feb 2016 has an article on rebuilding a Hartley TS16 and fitting it with a Junk Rig. Some very clear diagrams and good info, hope it helps.

goanywhere
01-19-2016, 05:50 PM
Australian Amateur Boatbuilding & Kitboats magazine #92 for Jan/Feb 2016 has an article on rebuilding a Hartley TS16 and fitting it with a Junk Rig. Some very clear diagrams and good info, hope it helps.

Great, thanks JDMH, I'll look it up.

WX
01-19-2016, 07:57 PM
Junk rigged Hartley 16.
https://petreamccarthy.wordpress.com/tag/hartley-16/
This my boat under sail.:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O83mFtUj1-A
Any excuse to share it.;)

WX
01-19-2016, 08:14 PM
Okay the standard lead for the CE of the JR is 9% forward of the BM rig, that's single mast. Multiple masts the lead would be 5%. There is a bit more to it so get yourself a copy of the book. The other thing is you can increase your working sail area by around 10% because the rig is so easy to reef.

goanywhere
01-20-2016, 01:54 AM
Have you also considered a balance lug rig? Much easier to make, fewer parts. Same unstayed mast structural details as the junk rig.

I like the junk rig for a few reasons. Firstly they are very easy to reef, easier than any other sail, which means that in heavy going they will work better than almost any other sail. For this reason it is possible to carry over the recommended bermudan rig sail area knowing that in a sudden blow the sail can be reefed in about 5 seconds. Secondly, they can be build from cheap materials. I like poly tarp sails, but with a junk sail they will last so much longer because the load on any single panel is much lower than on any other type of sail. Also, if one panel on a junk rig is torn or splits, there is little overall effect on the performance of the rig as a whole, whereas with any other sail it can be total failure. And to top it off, I think junk sails are real cool to look at.

The only down side is that they can be fiddly to make, but I am not fazed by that.

WX
01-20-2016, 02:40 AM
I like the junk rig for a few reasons. Firstly they are very easy to reef, easier than any other sail, which means that in light air they will work better than almost any other sail. For this reason it is possible to carry over the recommended bermudan rig sail area knowing that in a sudden blow the sail can be reefed in about 5 seconds. Secondly, they can be build from cheap materials. I like poly tarp sails, but with a junk sail they will last so much longer because the load on any single panel is much lower than on any other type of sail. Also, if one panel on a junk rig is torn or splits, there is little overall effect on the performance of the rig as a whole, whereas with any other sail it can be total failure. And to top it off, I think junk sails are real cool to look at.

The only down side is that they can be fiddly to make, but I am not fazed by that.
I built mine in around 5 days...7 panels and a bit over 30 sq mtres. I used Arne's sail making PDF. Instead of using his batten sleeves I used webbing loops. I think the sleeves give a tidier look though.

goanywhere
01-20-2016, 02:54 AM
I built mine in around 5 days...7 panels and a bit over 30 sq mtres. I used Arne's sail making PDF. Instead of using his batten sleeves I used webbing loops. I think the sleeves give a tidier look though.

WX, when I come to getting started on my new rig I will definitely appreciate your help and advice!

goanywhere
01-20-2016, 03:01 AM
Junk rigged Hartley 16.
https://petreamccarthy.wordpress.com/tag/hartley-16/
This my boat under sail.:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O83mFtUj1-A
Any excuse to share it.;)

Very impressive! The title says Southport Attempt. Did you make it? Where from and where to? :)

goanywhere
01-20-2016, 03:03 AM
I built mine in around 5 days...7 panels and a bit over 30 sq mtres. I used Arne's sail making PDF. Instead of using his batten sleeves I used webbing loops. I think the sleeves give a tidier look though.

The contoured panels certainly look like they give excellent lift to the sail. How does yours go to wind?

WX
01-20-2016, 03:20 AM
The contoured panels certainly look like they give excellent lift to the sail. How does yours go to wind?
I can sail as close as any cruising BM rig but I can't match their speed. Did you look at the video? The second half is a close reach in 15+knots. The GPS clocked me at 6.8knots and that was with the outboard leg in the water. Not bad for a 21' 6" waterline.:)

WX
01-20-2016, 03:22 AM
Long distance windward sailing is a waste of time in my opinion. I won't bother doing it again and I was only trying to go 15 nm.

goanywhere
01-20-2016, 04:39 AM
If fuel useage isn't an issue it is, but if you are on a long haul then it's nice to be able to sail close if you need to. Is it practical to consider a jib for windward sailing in addition to the junk sail?

WX
01-20-2016, 05:07 AM
If fuel useage isn't an issue it is, but if you are on a long haul then it's nice to be able to sail close if you need to. Is it practical to consider a jib for windward sailing in addition to the junk sail?

A jib, apart from the fact you would have to fit a bowsprit to take it would place undue stress on an unstayed mast. You will be able to sail close to the wind if you go cambered panels. I figure just wait a day or so till the wind is from a close reach round to a run. It will be more comfortable and you will get where you want to go faster. When I did my Southport attempt recently, the largest yacht in the fleet (40+ft) did 40 nm just to go 15nm.
As the saying goes, gentlemen don't sail to windward.:)
As for fuel usage well if you are running an outboard and there is any sort of a sea running then you may have trouble keeping the prop in the water.

goanywhere
01-20-2016, 06:49 AM
A jib, apart from the fact you would have to fit a bowsprit to take it would place undue stress on an unstayed mast. You will be able to sail close to the wind if you go cambered panels. I figure just wait a day or so till the wind is from a close reach round to a run. It will be more comfortable and you will get where you want to go faster. When I did my Southport attempt recently, the largest yacht in the fleet (40+ft) did 40 nm just to go 15nm.
As the saying goes, gentlemen don't sail to windward.:)
As for fuel usage well if you are running an outboard and there is any sort of a sea running then you may have trouble keeping the prop in the water.

I guess I have to take your comments at face value. I have not done any long distance sailing. Most of my trips have been short, where I haven't had the luxury of waiting for the wind to turn. I have often had no alternative but to sail to windward to get home. It is tedious uncomfortable work in an open dinghy!

A cambered sail is what I am looking at building but I just don't know enough about junk sails yet to know how much difference they make over non-cambered ones, but I do accept the word of experts that they perform better.

My desire is to make my boat capable of doing short coastal cruises of a few days max, where overnighting at sea is not an issue, and where there is always an option of ducking into shelter in bad weather. I just don't know if it is practical to do longer blue water cruises in a TS16. I believe that there are some things which can be done to help make them more seaworthy but there are limits. But a junk sail would go a long way in this direction I think.

What are your thoughts on the TS16 as a cruiser rather than just a daysailer?

WX
01-20-2016, 03:59 PM
People have cruised in smaller. You're cruising ground is the Gulf St Vincent? I reckon you'll have a great time. For your lower sheet blocks you need some sort of stern rail to mount them on...if possible. Otherwise when you gybe you will have a lot of sheet sweeping the cockpit. I'm planning to fit an arch to my cockpit to deflect the sheet up and over.
Regarding windward sailing, well yes there are times when you have no choice. :)

goanywhere
01-21-2016, 07:19 AM
Yes St Vincent's gulf, around Fleurieu Peninsula, across to Kangaroo Island, and the inland waters of Lake Alexandrina and the River Murray. That's where most of my sailing will happen. Some people have been a bit "oooh ahh" about my suggestion that I want to sail over to KI, or across the gulf, but after seeing some of the seas that Hartleys tackle on youtube I don't think I need to be too concerned. Certainly there is a learning curve to tackle, and maybe some mods to improve her heavy weather performance as discussed earlier, but the overall design seems pretty sound to me. I have been out in my little dinghy in 25kt seas where I was the only one out that stayed upright, and handled myself very well. I don't see any reason why I couldn't handle a more seaworthy boat in the same conditions (with the necessary experience under my keel of course).

RFNK
01-21-2016, 07:37 AM
I guess I have to take your comments at face value. I have not done any long distance sailing. Most of my trips have been short, where I haven't had the luxury of waiting for the wind to turn. I have often had no alternative but to sail to windward to get home. It is tedious uncomfortable work in an open dinghy!

A cambered sail is what I am looking at building but I just don't know enough about junk sails yet to know how much difference they make over non-cambered ones, but I do accept the word of experts that they perform better.

My desire is to make my boat capable of doing short coastal cruises of a few days max, where overnighting at sea is not an issue, and where there is always an option of ducking into shelter in bad weather. I just don't know if it is practical to do longer blue water cruises in a TS16. I believe that there are some things which can be done to help make them more seaworthy but there are limits. But a junk sail would go a long way in this direction I think.

What are your thoughts on the TS16 as a cruiser rather than just a daysailer?

It's not a sea boat. TS 16s are great boats but they've flipped on Sydney Harbour and Lake Macquarie. They have a centreboard, not a keel. If they go over, they stay that way until another boat tows them in. You might be lucky and never run into strife but I think if you want to sail at sea, get a boat that won't go over, a boat that recovers or a boat that you can right yourself.

Rick

goanywhere
01-22-2016, 07:58 AM
It's not a sea boat. TS 16s are great boats but they've flipped on Sydney Harbour and Lake Macquarie. They have a centreboard, not a keel. If they go over, they stay that way until another boat tows them in. You might be lucky and never run into strife but I think if you want to sail at sea, get a boat that won't go over, a boat that recovers or a boat that you can right yourself.

Rick

Not to make lightly of your comments, but when you have a dozen or more boats out trying desperately to win a race, and pushing the envelope as far as they can in the process, you are going to have mishaps. Racing and cruising are two totally different modes of sailing. A boat that might be prone to capsizing in racing conditions can be sailed very successfully in much worse conditions if the focus is sailing to the conditions and making it to the destination, or home. We all see routinely sailing boats capsizing in races, where the same boats would not capsize if they were sailed more conservatively in the same conditions.

I would think based on all I have read that the TS16 is far more seaworthy than some think. I am led to believe based on the personal experience of people who have sailed them for many years that capsizing is not so easy, and a skipper who knows the boat's sailing characteristics can successfully navigate quite extreme conditions safely.

In my case, I intend to take baby steps and take on more adventurous journeys until I feel that I have reached both my and the boat's realistic limits. I do expect that a well planned journey of 80 - 100 km in a day should be achievable though. Then it's simply a matter of how many of those day trips one wants to do in one cruise.

Anyway, it's all just theory for now. I'll let you know my thoughts in a few months after I've got some sea miles under my keel (or should I say centre board!)

RFNK
01-22-2016, 05:49 PM
Well, you did ask the question. Sorry if you don't like the answer! Go ahead, put a heavy unstayed mast on a lightweight centreboard boat built for class racing, find out how to support that mast in a TS 16, then off you go into the Southern Ocean.

My father, a very experienced sailor, turtled our TS 16 on Sydney Harbour. Not racing. He was a very conservative sailor, annoyingly so. But then your JR articles will probably tell you that South Australia doesn't have strong or unpredictable winds like Sydney Harbour ...

My advice would be to sail your TS with its designed rig around your area for a while, in varying conditions, then see if a junk rig might improve the experience. And take it out in local waters in heavy conditions A few times to see how it really handles.

I've been at sea in cruising yachts in 40 knots when 20 was predicted. A TS 16 would not have handled those conditions.

Rick

goanywhere
01-23-2016, 05:18 AM
Well, you did ask the question. Sorry if you don't like the answer! Go ahead, put a heavy unstayed mast on a lightweight centreboard boat built for class racing, find out how to support that mast in a TS 16, then off you go into the Southern Ocean.

My father, a very experienced sailor, turtled our TS 16 on Sydney Harbour. Not racing. He was a very conservative sailor, annoyingly so. But then your JR articles will probably tell you that South Australia doesn't have strong or unpredictable winds like Sydney Harbour ...

My advice would be to sail your TS with its designed rig around your area for a while, in varying conditions, then see if a junk rig might improve the experience. And take it out in local waters in heavy conditions A few times to see how it really handles.

I've been at sea in cruising yachts in 40 knots when 20 was predicted. A TS 16 would not have handled those conditions.

Rick

I don't think I was saying anything about ocean voyages, because that is certainly not on my agenda, at least not in this boat. And I didn't say that only sailors who race boats capsize them, only that in those conditions it is more common. However, your comments are welcome. I asked a question, I didn't make any claims, and certainly not from my own experience.

I took to the water for the first time today in my TS16, and although the conditions were mostly fairly mild, some of the gusts were up around 20 for brief periods. I was very happy with how she handled that, and to me she feels quite predictable and not tender compared to some sailing dinghys I have experience with. In this case I was in a protected estuary, so big waves weren't an issue, but I was confined in a narrow channel with nowhere to manoevre, so I had to utilise my outboard to sail head on into the wind to navigate some parts of the channel.

So far I love this boat. No, I wouldnt want to try sailing to New Zealand in her, but I might consider cruising coastal stretches a day at a time with a discerning weather eye. We'll wait and see. I'm learning and want to learn from others as well.

My experience with unstayed single sail rigs is something I can draw on though. I can imagine scenarios where with a bermudan rig you might get caught with nowhere to go in terms of sail set. In some situations letting go of the main sheet will not do you much good, especially if you get caught in a very strong gust and can't depower, and risk a capsize. Even if you have reefing points, it may take longer to reef than the conditions will give you. With a single unstayed sail that situation never occurs unless you have cleated your main sheet and aren't awake to the changing conditions. Other than that, simply letting go of the sheet will instantly depower your sail, reefed or not, on any point of sail, including running. Now that is one thing that will contribute to a more seaworthy boat, regardless of any other factors. Of course you still have the waves to worry about, and that is where a TS16 might struggle. But maybe there are things that can be done to improve things there too. Actually, in very heavy seas it has been shown that big keeled boats dont necessarily handle big waves any better than centreboard boats because they can "trip on their keel", where a centreboard boat can slide sideways much better.

By the way, a single unstayed mast is not necessarily heavier than a bermudan style mast, especially if all the rigging is taken into account. I can make a very strong aluminium three section mast that will weigh about 16kg and will carry 200 sq ft. of sail.

Lugalong
01-23-2016, 04:20 PM
Chipping in here and trying to be helpful as I see what you, goanywhere, are getting at on one hand, while as well see what RFNK mentions about a heavy rig with no ballast keel.

To explain what experience my understanding is based on -- I designed , built and sailed a boat without a deep ballast keel and rigged it to suit with a battened lug sail. This boat was good for some rough conditions in heavy weather.

It was also based on the idea that seagoing sailing stability without a ballast keel, after the design of Joshua Slocum’s Liberdade, comes from using a low aspect Chinese type rig.

There is this Junk Rig Association type craft as well, which tends to have taller sail plan with suitably deeper ballast keel for stability……along the lines of Jester.

Comparison of these two types was noticeable when I arrived in Falmouth and anchored close to Badger (then owned by the builders Pete and Annie Hill). Badger had a lump of concrete slung on the bottom at that stage, but was soon to be fitted with an expensive cast iron wingkeel. My boat JungJung drew about half the depth with it’s Chinese type rudder lifted up, and had a steel shoe on the 6” deep wooden keel, amounting to only about 10% bl ratio.

My rig made sense of this ballasting by being lower in aspect, and was tough enough to survive a few knockdowns, during which the mainmast helped in preventing the boat turning turtle.
Transposing these ideas to a 16 ft TS appeals to me more than this JRA idea of a tall aluminium pole with what essentially amounts to a sampan sail.

If the mast is tall, un-stayed and light, it is going to be flimsy…….better then to keep it light and stayed as RFNK suggests.

Using the shallow draught of a centerboard boat to good effect, it is possible to shorten the mast/masts but still carry a spread of sail with the Chinese lug increasing area at the peak. Battens fill out the roach and include the usual Chinese sheeting/reefing system to control sail. Then a foremast and bowsprit can be used to carry a combination of headsails, which will be better suited to a 16 footer than a bulky battened junk foresail.

Cost of the multi mast option is going to be greater than a sampan type rig, but then this is reasonable if you want a good sea boat with trailer ability.
-Jeremy

tdem
01-23-2016, 04:57 PM
There has been one that got recovered like a dinghy by leaning on the board on our tiny lake. It then took off without the skipper!


It's not a sea boat. TS 16s are great boats but they've flipped on Sydney Harbour and Lake Macquarie. They have a centreboard, not a keel. If they go over, they stay that way until another boat tows them in. You might be lucky and never run into strife but I think if you want to sail at sea, get a boat that won't go over, a boat that recovers or a boat that you can right yourself.

Rick

goanywhere
01-23-2016, 05:47 PM
There has been one that got recovered like a dinghy by leaning on the board on our tiny lake. It then took off without the skipper!

Yes, that's possible. The old addage, "never cleat the mainsheet" comes to mind. Especially in a dinghy. In a capsize the first thing to check is if the sheet is cleated and uncleat it before righting the boat, or it can go a-wandering. I have heard that some people have increased the ballast in a TS16 to make it easier to right, or to help prevent capsizing in the first place. Another thing I am thinking of is a mast float and some sealed buoyancy chambers. Preventing swamping seems to be a major factor in recovering from a capsize.

goanywhere
01-23-2016, 05:51 PM
Chipping in here and trying to be helpful as I see what you, goanywhere, are getting at on one hand, while as well see what RFNK mentions about a heavy rig with no ballast keel.

To explain what experience my understanding is based on -- I designed , built and sailed a boat without a deep ballast keel and rigged it to suit with a battened lug sail. This boat was good for some rough conditions in heavy weather.

It was also based on the idea that seagoing sailing stability without a ballast keel, after the design of Joshua Slocum’s Liberdade, comes from using a low aspect Chinese type rig.

There is this Junk Rig Association type craft as well, which tends to have taller sail plan with suitably deeper ballast keel for stability……along the lines of Jester.

Comparison of these two types was noticeable when I arrived in Falmouth and anchored close to Badger (then owned by the builders Pete and Annie Hill). Badger had a lump of concrete slung on the bottom at that stage, but was soon to be fitted with an expensive cast iron wingkeel. My boat JungJung drew about half the depth with it’s Chinese type rudder lifted up, and had a steel shoe on the 6” deep wooden keel, amounting to only about 10% bl ratio.

My rig made sense of this ballasting by being lower in aspect, and was tough enough to survive a few knockdowns, during which the mainmast helped in preventing the boat turning turtle.
Transposing these ideas to a 16 ft TS appeals to me more than this JRA idea of a tall aluminium pole with what essentially amounts to a sampan sail.

If the mast is tall, un-stayed and light, it is going to be flimsy…….better then to keep it light and stayed as RFNK suggests.

Using the shallow draught of a centerboard boat to good effect, it is possible to shorten the mast/masts but still carry a spread of sail with the Chinese lug increasing area at the peak. Battens fill out the roach and include the usual Chinese sheeting/reefing system to control sail. Then a foremast and bowsprit can be used to carry a combination of headsails, which will be better suited to a 16 footer than a bulky battened junk foresail.

Cost of the multi mast option is going to be greater than a sampan type rig, but then this is reasonable if you want a good sea boat with trailer ability.
-Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy, appreciate your comments coming from experience and observation.

I will put your thoughts to the JRA community for comment to get their assessment. Pete and Annie Hill and their boat are well known to the folks on JRA.

Once again, I am NOT looking to do lengthy open ocean cruising! I am simply looking to maximise the potential of my boat to be able to widen the envelope of safety and ease of sailing as much as PRACTICAL.

goanywhere
01-23-2016, 06:40 PM
Chipping in here and trying to be helpful as I see what you, goanywhere, are getting at on one hand, while as well see what RFNK mentions about a heavy rig with no ballast keel.

To explain what experience my understanding is based on -- I designed , built and sailed a boat without a deep ballast keel and rigged it to suit with a battened lug sail. This boat was good for some rough conditions in heavy weather.

It was also based on the idea that seagoing sailing stability without a ballast keel, after the design of Joshua Slocum’s Liberdade, comes from using a low aspect Chinese type rig.

There is this Junk Rig Association type craft as well, which tends to have taller sail plan with suitably deeper ballast keel for stability……along the lines of Jester.

Comparison of these two types was noticeable when I arrived in Falmouth and anchored close to Badger (then owned by the builders Pete and Annie Hill). Badger had a lump of concrete slung on the bottom at that stage, but was soon to be fitted with an expensive cast iron wingkeel. My boat JungJung drew about half the depth with it’s Chinese type rudder lifted up, and had a steel shoe on the 6” deep wooden keel, amounting to only about 10% bl ratio.

My rig made sense of this ballasting by being lower in aspect, and was tough enough to survive a few knockdowns, during which the mainmast helped in preventing the boat turning turtle.
Transposing these ideas to a 16 ft TS appeals to me more than this JRA idea of a tall aluminium pole with what essentially amounts to a sampan sail.

If the mast is tall, un-stayed and light, it is going to be flimsy…….better then to keep it light and stayed as RFNK suggests.

Using the shallow draught of a centerboard boat to good effect, it is possible to shorten the mast/masts but still carry a spread of sail with the Chinese lug increasing area at the peak. Battens fill out the roach and include the usual Chinese sheeting/reefing system to control sail. Then a foremast and bowsprit can be used to carry a combination of headsails, which will be better suited to a 16 footer than a bulky battened junk foresail.

Cost of the multi mast option is going to be greater than a sampan type rig, but then this is reasonable if you want a good sea boat with trailer ability.
-Jeremy

Some further reflective thoughts on your comments Lugalong. Light aluminium does not necessarily equate to flimsy.
The mast I have on my little dinghy at present is very light, about 6.5kg with the sail on, and is very strong. My boat will capsize way before the mast ever gives up. Tubular aluminium is very strong for it's weight, and a three section tapered mast is superior to a straight tubular single section. (I like B & B Yacht's mast design which they use on all their crusing yachts). Probably equal is a hollow wooden mast from very good timber, but much more work and more expensive. I do understand that opinions vary on this subject though. The critical point for me is that an aluminium mast will be easier to build, lighter, and need less maintenance than a wooden one.

I do like the idea of the lower aspect sail, maybe even with a mizzen, but that thought isn't well developed yet. I also like the idea of a mizzen but probably along the lines of a small simple leg-o-mutton sprit rather than a junk style with all that extra sheeting. A mizzen is handy for bringing the boat to weather for reefing or for helping to ride out a gale, either with a sea anchor or some outboard power assistance. The people at JRA suggest a single sail on a small sub 20' boat though.

For extra ballast I am thinking of either bolting on some galv steel shoes either side of the skeg keel, something in the order of 150kg, or water ballast in bladders, or both, which should add some right-ability. A Mast float would be another consideration to help prevent a total 180 or God forbid, a 360.

Lugalong
01-23-2016, 06:55 PM
Thanks Jeremy, appreciate your comments coming from experience and observation.

I will put your thoughts to the JRA community for comment to get their assessment. Pete and Annie Hill and their boat are well known to the folks on JRA.

Once again, I am NOT looking to do lengthy open ocean cruising! I am simply looking to maximise the potential of my boat to be able to widen the envelope of safety and ease of sailing as much as PRACTICAL.

If “what is PRACTICAL” means making your own sails and only buying materials like cloth, line and aluminium tubing, then you are in the right company with the JRA.

As for sounding them out on what I say……………don’t bother.
Not long ago Annie Hill came aboard my little fishing proa for ½ a sail up the harbor channel here, and started getting snarky about my choice of sail and the craft configuration.

I now prefer to stay away from that ilk, and expect you will hear opinion that is of no practical value outside of their ken.

Having paged through ‘Practical Junk Rig’ years ago, and looking at the latest design of this type of craft, I think you will need to go for the ballast keel as well as the sampan type “junk rig” on your boat…….just as RKFN says.

Sails of the batwing type work well on internally ballasted sailing canoes, and are just as efficiently reefed as fully battened balanced lugsails. They are carried on shorter, lighter masts though.
-Jeremy

Lugalong
01-23-2016, 07:25 PM
Some further reflective thoughts on your comments Lugalong. Light aluminium does not necessarily equate to flimsy.
The mast I have on my little dinghy at present is very light, about 6.5kg with the sail on, and is very strong. My boat will capsize way before the mast ever gives up. Tubular aluminium is very strong for it's weight, and a three section tapered mast is superior to a straight tubular single section. (I like B & B Yacht's mast design which they use on all their crusing yachts). Probably equal is a hollow wooden mast from very good timber, but much more work and more expensive. I do understand that opinions vary on this subject though. The critical point for me is that an aluminium mast will be easier to build, lighter, and need less maintenance than a wooden one.

Reply------Aluminium is great as a compression strut.....better than carbon fibre, but as an un-stayed spar it will need to be thicker walled and thus heavier for same height as a stayed spar. If not unnecessarily heavy it will bend and buckle before either a composite or wood composite spar will -- composite or wood/composite spars will offer the same maintenance benefit as the metal spar.
At the size/length you are talking about, you could probably salvage broken carbon spars from other yachts in size/length that is still useful.
Otherwise the satisfaction of making natural fibre spars can offset work and cost in a positive way......there is bamboo as well.


Goanywhere says -----I do like the idea of the lower aspect sail, maybe even with a mizzen, but that thought isn't well developed yet. I also like the idea of a mizzen but probably along the lines of a small simple leg-o-mutton sprit rather than a junk style with all that extra sheeting. A mizzen is handy for bringing the boat to weather for reefing or for helping to ride out a gale, either with a sea anchor or some outboard power assistance. The people at JRA suggest a single sail on a small sub 20' boat though.

Reply -- If you are open to the idea of two masts, a very short spar right at the bow end and a bowsprit, will enable way more useful sail to be carried than a mizzen. If you follow the full idea of the Junk, you will have a deep rudder and the mainsail area far enough aft to align Ce with Clr. Here the rudder blade area is acting like a daggerboard to counteract lateral drift, but it is an active foil and can be very efficient if used correctly.

For extra ballast I am thinking of either bolting on some galv steel shoes either side of the skeg keel, something in the order of 150kg, or water ballast in bladders, or both, which should add some right-ability. A Mast float would be another consideration to help prevent a total 180 or God forbid, a 360.

A mast which is strong and buoyant will do all that is needed instead of adding the windage of a float up top..........spending a little more at the outset will not lumber you with the extra weight and windage of a metal pipe and bladder vat it's tip.......I must watch out about what I am saying here, or else the JRA people will probably say I am getting snarky ;)

cheers

WX
01-23-2016, 10:12 PM
If “what is PRACTICAL” means making your own sails and only buying materials like cloth, line and aluminium tubing, then you are in the right company with the JRA.

As for sounding them out on what I say……………don’t bother.
Not long ago Annie Hill came aboard my little fishing proa for ½ a sail up the harbor channel here, and started getting snarky about my choice of sail and the craft configuration.

I now prefer to stay away from that ilk, and expect you will hear opinion that is of no practical value outside of their ken.

Having paged through ‘Practical Junk Rig’ years ago, and looking at the latest design of this type of craft, I think you will need to go for the ballast keel as well as the sampan type “junk rig” on your boat…….just as RKFN says.

Sails of the batwing type work well on internally ballasted sailing canoes, and are just as efficiently reefed as fully battened balanced lugsails. They are carried on shorter, lighter masts though.
-Jeremy


Annie is known for her strong opinions...apparently.:)
I'm a confirmed Junkie but I promise not to get snarky.:)
The way I look at it if someone wants to try a different rig then it's up to them. The TS16 is not a sea boat, the lack of a self draining cockpit sees to that...doesn't mean you can't fit one.;)
As for sailing a JR TS16, well start with light winds and build up the skills and see how she goes. The fact reefing is a pinch of yellow wet stuff is an added safety aspect. The rig doesn't have to be heavy and bulky. Odyssey III cloth for the sail will be more than strong enough. Battens, boom and yard can be fabricated from T5 alloy tube. The mast options have been discussed elsewhere.

Phil Y
01-24-2016, 12:45 AM
Ahh but the TS 16 cockpit is self bailing. It's above the waterline and has transom scuppers. Or so I seem to recall. Personally I'd like to see a gaff rig on one. Should work well, the standard rig is quite low aspect.

brucemoffatt
01-24-2016, 12:56 AM
Ahh but the TS 16 cockpit is self bailing. It's above the waterline and has transom scuppers. Or so I seem to recall. Personally I'd like to see a gaff rig on one. Should work well, the standard rig is quite low aspect.

Some are, some aren't. Yes the cockpit sole is above the waterline, and many have a plinth at the cabin end, a sealed sole, and transom scuppers. Some don't, but if it was me, I'd make sure mine was self bailing. On Nanjera the electric bilge pump discharges straight into the self bailing cockpit. So far there hasn't been enough water in the bilge to see the system working in anger - we get around a litre or two of bilge water in, after several hours of sailing.

I'd like to see a lug rig, but a gaff rig would work really well. Most of all, I'd like to be able to easily reef the main.

Chris249
01-24-2016, 01:52 AM
A jib, apart from the fact you would have to fit a bowsprit to take it would place undue stress on an unstayed mast. You will be able to sail close to the wind if you go cambered panels. I figure just wait a day or so till the wind is from a close reach round to a run. It will be more comfortable and you will get where you want to go faster. When I did my Southport attempt recently, the largest yacht in the fleet (40+ft) did 40 nm just to go 15nm.
As the saying goes, gentlemen don't sail to windward.:)
As for fuel usage well if you are running an outboard and there is any sort of a sea running then you may have trouble keeping the prop in the water.

On the other hand, if you don't want to go to windward you may have to spend many days sitting around; sometimes in your home port that may have lost its interest for you, sometimes in a different port with an uncomfortable anchorage, sometimes in a nice port where you sit in a nice anchorage, working out your future cruising plans because you will no longer have a job by the time you finally get home the boat home after the wind system has changed.

Being able to sail upwind well can open an enormous number of cruising options. Even in a cruising mecca like the Whitsundays, you have to be able to go upwind well if you want to get away from crowds without motoring. Certainly the most experienced cruisers I know have craft that go upwind well, although in some areas it's not critical for some people.

It's extremely unusual to sail 40nm to do 15 upwind, even against the ECC.

Chris249
01-24-2016, 02:10 AM
My experience with unstayed single sail rigs is something I can draw on though. I can imagine scenarios where with a bermudan rig you might get caught with nowhere to go in terms of sail set. In some situations letting go of the main sheet will not do you much good, especially if you get caught in a very strong gust and can't depower, and risk a capsize. Even if you have reefing points, it may take longer to reef than the conditions will give you. With a single unstayed sail that situation never occurs unless you have cleated your main sheet and aren't awake to the changing conditions. Other than that, simply letting go of the sheet will instantly depower your sail, reefed or not, on any point of sail, including running.


Maybe it could be worth looking at a highly efficient reefing system on the standard rig? That way you may be able to replace your ageing rig with some very nice second-hand sails for very little. With a TS16 the reefing procedure could just be;

1- Ease halyard if it's windy;
2-Dump halyard to a marked position (or use the two-jammer system);
3- Pull a single-line reefing system in; maybe a two-line system if you don't want to run a tiny winch;
4- Keep sailing under reefed rig.

After all, the good TS16s seem to relish strong winds, and under a reefed main life would be much easier.

Often sloops can be balanced better in extreme conditions because you have more trim options; for example when it gets really gnarly I prefer a triple-reefed main and #4 or storm jib to a double-reefed mainsail which is of equivalent area. And dumping the mainsheet in a breezy square run can be very problematic; as you ease the sail out it goes from stalled flow to normal flow, with a dramatic increase in power and a dramatic change in the direction of that power, often leading to a windward roll of death. That's why on Lasers we often shorten the mainsheet figure of eight in a breeze.

brucemoffatt
01-24-2016, 02:32 AM
On the other hand, if you don't want to go to windward you may have to spend many days sitting around; sometimes in your home port that may have lost its interest for you, sometimes in a different port with an uncomfortable anchorage, sometimes in a nice port where you sit in a nice anchorage, working out your future cruising plans because you will no longer have a job by the time you finally get home the boat home after the wind system has changed.

Being able to sail upwind well can open an enormous number of cruising options. Even in a cruising mecca like the Whitsundays, you have to be able to go upwind well if you want to get away from crowds without motoring. Certainly the most experienced cruisers I know have craft that go upwind well, although in some areas it's not critical for some people.

It's extremely unusual to sail 40nm to do 15 upwind, even against the ECC.

Or perhaps deploy that 6HP 'upwind secret weapon.' Given the distances available to you in the gulf St V, Coorong, Murray etc I think that may well be a viable and reasonable approach. It may be as wet on deck as sailing would be in those conditions, but you'd get there just as quickly or quicker. The 6 HP is water cooled, so it might not be unbearably loud.

It's a cruising boat, don't lock yourself into narrow solutions. A bloke I worked for has cruised his TS16 in this manner with a young family, often heading out of Wirrina or Goolwa or other spots you'd probably also be looking at, for weekends (and more) away. Always keeps a good weather eye open, always comes back safe and happy.

Also see Chris' reefing suggestions. I second all of that, for what it's worth.

goanywhere
01-24-2016, 04:18 AM
Wow, lots of things to consider here. Chris, I don't understand everything you said, but I will consider all and any options. Having an easy reefing system would certainly make life easier when things get nasty. I'm in no hurry, and with only one trip out I am hardly in any position to know my boat well at all yet.

Bruce, yes the "steel mizzen" is a great option for getting out of a tight spot. Even though I had only my little 3.5 Tohatsu on board yesterday, it helped us to navigate the narrow Barker Inlet at low tide against the wind and current at times quite nicely. In fact motor-sailing was at times critical in getting us up the narrow channel dead on into the wind when there was no room for tacking. And manoevring into the mooring would have been a challenge under sail alone with the wind right off the ramp into our face. With the Evinrude 6 it will be even better. I can definitely see how that could be used to get out of a pinch. Dump the sails and motor to shelter or home.

(By the way, it looks like we will be heading to Goolwa on Tuesday and may even motor around rather than sail. My wife needs to gain confidence in the boat little by little, and me soloing the boat the second time out isn't going to do much for that. I'll be in touch to arrange a trip out with you in a couple of weeks hopefully).

Regarding the self bailing cockpit aspect, the deck of the cockpit is not sealed, and drains into the bilge at present. The same with the cabin. there's no plinth in the companionway, which is high on the list of fixes between summers. A bilge pump is going to be in the mix too, and a sealed cockpit with scuppers out the back will make her a bit more weatherproof.

Paul G.
01-24-2016, 04:47 AM
Well, you did ask the question. Sorry if you don't like the answer! Go ahead, put a heavy unstayed mast on a lightweight centreboard boat built for class racing, find out how to support that mast in a TS 16, then off you go into the Southern Ocean.

My father, a very experienced sailor, turtled our TS 16 on Sydney Harbour. Not racing. He was a very conservative sailor, annoyingly so. But then your JR articles will probably tell you that South Australia doesn't have strong or unpredictable winds like Sydney Harbour ...

My advice would be to sail your TS with its designed rig around your area for a while, in varying conditions, then see if a junk rig might improve the experience. And take it out in local waters in heavy conditions A few times to see how it really handles.

I've been at sea in cruising yachts in 40 knots when 20 was predicted. A TS 16 would not have handled those conditions.

Rick

Come on Rick, experience and common sense? Those imposters don't belong in THIS thread!

RFNK
01-24-2016, 04:58 AM
It takes a minute to reef the main on my 38' yacht. I have hooks on the mast and winches on the boom. A single line system would be quicker but would require more effort. I'd have a single line system on a TS 16. Combine that with a little jib furler, and you'd have a great system for cruising - fast, safe and efficient.

In any case, if your boat has one of those horrible beak-type catches on the forestay, I'd ditch that in favour of a halyard winch and cleat. Phil (above) reckons he got his working well but I've never seen one I'd trust!

Rick

Really not wishing to upset anyone here but ... I just can't imagine why anyone would want to compromise windward performance in a yacht!

Paul G.
01-24-2016, 05:02 AM
I think that there is merit in considering a junk rig but not for the reasons given. Put a junk rig on because you like it, not because of any handling or sailing advantage. A junk rig will not confer superior survivability to a TS 16, nor will it point better and it will not be as fast. Sorry there is not way around those simple facts. TS 16's have been refined and raced for a long time, the sailplan is simple and we are not talking size and heft here, its a small sailing dinghy with scraps for sails. You can reef it simply and easily and have the benefit of zillions of old sails, rigging parts, masts etc to keep your boat sailing cheaply.

A TS 16 is not an open sea boat, they can cruise a protected coast and could be made safer with a few mods, as for the talk about not going to windward! Half the joy of sailing is windward work especially in a small boat, sitting in a bay for the wind to point from behind is going to get old very quick.

Love the look? Then put on a junk rig but for all intents and purposes a bermudan is superior in such a small boat.

Paul G.
01-24-2016, 05:05 AM
It takes a minute to reef the main on my 38' yacht. I have hooks on the mast and winches on the boom. A single line system would be quicker but would require more effort. I'd have a single line system on a TS 16. Combine that with a little jib furler, and you'd have a great system for cruising - fast, safe and efficient.

In any case, if your boat has one of those horrible beak-type catches on the forestay, I'd ditch that in favour of a halyard winch. Phil (above) reckons he got his working well but I've never seen one I'd trust!

Rick

You obviously are not a paid up member of the JRA. It's not possible to reef a 38 foot boat unless you have a paid crew!

goanywhere
01-24-2016, 05:47 AM
I think that there is merit in considering a junk rig but not for the reasons given. Put a junk rig on because you like it, not because of any handling or sailing advantage. A junk rig will not confer superior survivability to a TS 16, nor will it point better and it will not be as fast. Sorry there is not way around those simple facts. TS 16's have been refined and raced for a long time, the sailplan is simple and we are not talking size and heft here, its a small sailing dinghy with scraps for sails. You can reef it simply and easily and have the benefit of zillions of old sails, rigging parts, masts etc to keep your boat sailing cheaply.

A TS 16 is not an open sea boat, they can cruise a protected coast and could be made safer with a few mods, as for the talk about not going to windward! Half the joy of sailing is windward work especially in a small boat, sitting in a bay for the wind to point from behind is going to get old very quick.

Love the look? Then put on a junk rig but for all intents and purposes a bermudan is superior in such a small boat.

I would like to know more about the reefing system you refer to. If I can keep the current rig and make it a bit friendlier for the times that things get rough that is a win-win. The reason I was thinking of the Junk rig is because of my experience with unstayed masts and simple rigs in these conditions, and what I have read and been told about the Junk rig. This is where my inexperience shows itself! I am open to other ways to achieve the same ends.

Can you point me to some good sources of information on the improvements you are talking about?

WX
01-24-2016, 05:50 AM
On the other hand, if you don't want to go to windward you may have to spend many days sitting around; sometimes in your home port that may have lost its interest for you, sometimes in a different port with an uncomfortable anchorage, sometimes in a nice port where you sit in a nice anchorage, working out your future cruising plans because you will no longer have a job by the time you finally get home the boat home after the wind system has changed.

Being able to sail upwind well can open an enormous number of cruising options. Even in a cruising mecca like the Whitsundays, you have to be able to go upwind well if you want to get away from crowds without motoring. Certainly the most experienced cruisers I know have craft that go upwind well, although in some areas it's not critical for some people.

It's extremely unusual to sail 40nm to do 15 upwind, even against the ECC.

The skipper is an experienced sailor, I believe him. You may believe as you wish.

WX
01-24-2016, 06:08 AM
You obviously are not a paid up member of the JRA. It's not possible to reef a 38 foot boat unless you have a paid crew!

Jock McLeod solo sailed his junk rigged schooner across the Atlantic with out leaving his cabin.

Chris249
01-24-2016, 06:21 AM
The skipper is an experienced sailor, I believe him. You may believe as you wish.

I'm not saying I did not believe him; I'm not calling him a liar. However, having spent a fair bit of time sailing around the east coast, it's unusual to sail 40 nm to make good 15, even against the ECC.

WX
01-24-2016, 06:30 AM
NNW wind Tweed Heads to Southport is just not a good combination.

Chris249
01-24-2016, 06:30 AM
Jock McLeod solo sailed his junk rigged schooner across the Atlantic with out leaving his cabin.

I think the issue is that reefing a conventional rig that is well sorted out is not a major effort, as it is sometimes made out to be by the fans of other rigs.

Some people make it seem as if reefing a standard bermudan rig is a major drama, when it really is not. It can be case of just moving one hook from one grommet to another; easing one line to a predetermined point; pulling in about 5m of 6mm line, with maybe 5kg of force; and then winching in 3m of 6-8mm line with a single speed winch. And that's not even using a single-line system.

That's even assuming you have to reef. A modern short-overlap rig can go from zero to 20s easily without any reefing or dropping of sails; just pull three ropes (about 4mm thick for a 28'er) two of them about 6" with about 5kg force, and ease two. You go from a deep, powerful main with a close-sheeted jib, to a flat main eased off and a jib sheeting well out and nicely twisted. I could not believe how well the rig has worked on the two retro-fitted boat I've sailed.

In some ways it's just logical - lots of racing boats go from 0-28+ with one set of sails and sail efficiently through that whole wind range.

For some of the sailing I do I'm a "retro-grouch", always telling people how good it used to be. When it comes to the modern short-overlap fractional rig I'm a complete believer. On the other hand, a fractional rig with a roller-furling genoa, staysail on an inner forestay and fully-battened main with wishbone is also amazingly easy to use and adaptable.

A TS16 is already pretty close to the short-overlap modern rig; it's just using old mast tech and sail proportions, but one deep reef may be able to do a lot.

Chris249
01-24-2016, 06:45 AM
NNW wind Tweed Heads to Southport is just not a good combination.

Nope, it wouldn't be; but just from my experience (and that of the members of my family who have spent years cruising the NSW/Qld coasts full time) being able to move fast under sail really helps.

I'm always interested to see the number of times that a nice one-leg slide up the coast in light/medium winds on a fast high winded boat turns into a horrible slog for the slower, low pointing boats you pass. They fall off the breeze, have to take a losing tack out into the current, get pushed south, tack back into the shore at a bad angle, and come back into shore having made no ground. Meanwhile other boats are slicing alone the shore, out of the current, tacking out one mile for every eight to ten miles of northing and going fast in nice flat seas while getting a good look at interesting scenery.

Obviously many people motor, but as a personal thing I dislike that unless it's dead calm. If others have different tastes that's fine. One of the best upwind performers (relatively speaking) I've ever sailed on is owned by a couple who have lived aboard since the mid '80s and done over 200,000 miles on it; they happily do two weeks of solid windward sailing at a time, because the boat can do it so well.

goanywhere
01-24-2016, 07:41 AM
A TS16 is already pretty close to the short-overlap modern rig; it's just using old mast tech and sail proportions, but one deep reef may be able to do a lot.

I have just viewed a few videos on reefing and one line reefing systems. It does look as though if properly set up and drilled, reefing shouldn't be too difficult, even a fully manual system. (Of course they don't show you reefing when the conditions are already dangerous.)

I might as well put in at least one reefing point and associated fittings. A basic system shouldn't be expensive but will give me a margin of safety right away.

WX
01-24-2016, 07:42 AM
In my case it was an uncomfortable slog into a lumpy head sea . My gps was clocking me over 4 knots despite the ECC and I was pointing as high as the other yachts. I just didn't quite have their speed.
None of the other yachts did well and all had more experience than me. I think a more experienced JR sailor would have gotten better out of my rig but I was happy at the end of the day.

WX
01-24-2016, 07:46 AM
After all she got me back in safely and at a more than satisfactory speed.

RFNK
01-24-2016, 09:37 AM
Gary, your boat was built from the ground up for a junk rig. This OP is talking about removing a very efficient rig to replace it with a junk rig. That's a different kettle of fish. Relocating the mast, beefing up the deck (?) to support an unstayed mast, re-aligning all systems ..... for what? In your case, you chose to build for junk rig, knowing that your sailing would be undertaken within the limitations of that rig. But this OP seems to be talking about opting for a junk rig as a better, safer way to undertake coastal passages of a few days (?) in a TS 16.

It's just wrong. Of all places, coastal passages are where you need windward ability. It's less important at sea or in a lake. A TS 16 with a manageable jib and a main set up for reefing, is a very efficient boat for local cruising, and, of course, you could go further, safely, with good planning and bolt holes. There are reefing systems described all over the internet - the hardware suppliers have them in their catalogues - Harken, Ronstan etc.

Prior to this discussion, I really had no idea that anyone would put a junk rig on a boat because it might be easier to reef! Well, I've never reefed a junk rig but I can tell you, reefing a bermudan rig is very easy - where did the idea that it's difficult come from? At any one time, there are thousands of yachts out there with bermudan rigs, happily reefing! Solo, short-handed, whatever! Reefing late is always harder but it's still not hard. Good to practice in all conditions and all points of sail - like anything in sailing.

I hope I'm not wrong - I'd need to raise the crew's wages!

Rick

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-24-2016, 11:04 AM
Reefing is easy.....

Like most statements this is sometimes -perhaps often - true - and sometimes nonsense.

I have had one miserable experience of reefing a Bermudan main- the main halliyard jumped the masthead sheeve and jammed - downwind in an F6, forecast to go F9 - not nice.


Anyone else manage to tangle the spi halliyard in the roller reef genoa? - at night, or sorted a riding turn inside a shrouded roller reefing drum?

Paul G.
01-24-2016, 02:08 PM
Reefing is easy.....

Like most statements this is sometimes -perhaps often - true - and sometimes nonsense.

I have had one miserable experience of reefing a Bermudan main- the main halliyard jumped the masthead sheeve and jammed - downwind in an F6, forecast to go F9 - not nice.


Anyone else manage to tangle the spi halliyard in the roller reef genoa? - at night, or sorted a riding turn inside a shrouded roller reefing drum?

No doubt these things do happen but cock ups do not belong solely to bermudan rigs. On a TS16 a roller furling jib and a deep slab reef in the main should be all you ever need, very simple and inexpensive to set up. You should not be out there in 30 plus kts and if so lets trust your seamanship will get you out of trouble. From the OP's posts I am getting the feeling that he wants to cover all the bases, insure against the extremes of weather so that if he gets caught out, he will be safe. That is a very reasonable approach but it also belies his experience, these days it would be very unusual to find yourself unexpectedly in a storm or gale. You should not be out there in a TS 16 much above 30kts and even if you have a junk rig, the windage alone would be a big problem no matter how reefed you are and you will not be going to windward very well with any rig but much worse with a junk.

I think some of the comments about junk rigs are unhelpful, "crossing the atlantic without leaving the cabin" has about as much relevance to choosing a rig as "shackleton sailed 1800 miles in an open boat in the southern ocean" has to selecting a cruising boat for the ice.

goanywhere
01-24-2016, 02:51 PM
Regardless of anything else being able to reef in 5 seconds with one hand without having to leave the helm has to be attractive. Can you show me how that is done on a bermudan rig? Not saying that you might ever NEED to be able to do that but is it not worth looking into?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-24-2016, 02:55 PM
Have you read "Voyage of the Liberdade" by J. Slocum.

http://www.stexboat.com/slocum/liberd1.htm

WX
01-24-2016, 03:10 PM
Gary, your boat was built from the ground up for a junk rig. This OP is talking about removing a very efficient rig to replace it with a junk rig. That's a different kettle of fish. Relocating the mast, beefing up the deck (?) to support an unstayed mast, re-aligning all systems ..... for what? In your case, you chose to build for junk rig, knowing that your sailing would be undertaken within the limitations of that rig. But this OP seems to be talking about opting for a junk rig as a better, safer way to undertake coastal passages of a few days (?) in a TS 16.

It's just wrong. Of all places, coastal passages are where you need windward ability. It's less important at sea or in a lake. A TS 16 with a manageable jib and a main set up for reefing, is a very efficient boat for local cruising, and, of course, you could go further, safely, with good planning and bolt holes. There are reefing systems described all over the internet - the hardware suppliers have them in their catalogues - Harken, Ronstan etc.

Prior to this discussion, I really had no idea that anyone would put a junk rig on a boat because it might be easier to reef! Well, I've never reefed a junk rig but I can tell you, reefing a bermudan rig is very easy - where did the idea that it's difficult come from? At any one time, there are thousands of yachts out there with bermudan rigs, happily reefing! Solo, short-handed, whatever! Reefing late is always harder but it's still not hard. Good to practice in all conditions and all points of sail - like anything in sailing.

I hope I'm not wrong - I'd need to raise the crew's wages!

Rick
Rick my boat was designed to take a BM rig. I decided to Junk rig her instead. I wonder if we would be having this discussion if the conversion was to a gaff or a Lug rig?:)
There seems to be quite a bit of opposition to the JR.

Phil Y
01-24-2016, 03:46 PM
I think it might be just a little crazy to buy a boat of a popular design which has stood the test of time and immediately go about making fundamental and expensive changes. I'd suggest sail her for a year or two, if possible do some sailing on a junk rigged boat, if you can find one, and then review your options. By all means get a reef put into the main. You don't need anything beyond a couple of cringles and lacing eyes. It's a tiny boat, just ease the main, lie a hull, loose the halyard a little, pull the tack down and tie it off, pull the clew down and tie it off, raise the halyard, sheet in and away you go.

goanywhere
01-24-2016, 04:02 PM
Rick my boat was designed to take a BM rig. I decided to Junk rig her instead. I wonder if we would be having this discussion if the conversion was to a gaff or a Lug rig?:)
There seems to be quite a bit of opposition to the JR.

WX to be fair not many replies have been negative. Bemused? Yes. But fenerally constructive. At the end of the day it's my boat and I'm not stupid. I am taking all this in but will probably go ahead with the modifications anyway. I will be grateful for your assistance and advice as time progresses.

WX
01-24-2016, 04:14 PM
No worries. :)

RFNK
01-24-2016, 04:29 PM
Regardless of anything else being able to reef in 5 seconds with one hand without having to leave the helm has to be attractive. Can you show me how that is done on a bermudan rig? Not saying that you might ever NEED to be able to do that but is it not worth looking into?

No, I can't show you how to reef a Bermudan rig in 5 secs with one hand. If it's possible, it's a nice thing to be able to do but I don't think it's worth changing an entire rig just for that.

Of course nothing in sailing is ever always easy.

I wouldn't put a gaff rig or a lug rig on a TS 16. TS 16 already has a great rig (except for that beaky thing ...... ).

Rick

RFNK
01-24-2016, 04:54 PM
No doubt these things do happen but cock ups do not belong solely to bermudan rigs. On a TS16 a roller furling jib and a deep slab reef in the main should be all you ever need, very simple and inexpensive to set up. You should not be out there in 30 plus kts and if so lets trust your seamanship will get you out of trouble. From the OP's posts I am getting the feeling that he wants to cover all the bases, insure against the extremes of weather so that if he gets caught out, he will be safe. That is a very reasonable approach but it also belies his experience, these days it would be very unusual to find yourself unexpectedly in a storm or gale. You should not be out there in a TS 16 much above 30kts and even if you have a junk rig, the windage alone would be a big problem no matter how reefed you are and you will not be going to windward very well with any rig but much worse with a junk.


These are the concerns I have with a junk rig on a light boat. It's a stack of stuff to be trying to manage in a gale and they're simply not good rigs for windward work. For coastal cruising, you must be able to go to windward efficiently. Unless you have a lot of time and sea room.

On our coast, storms frequently deliver winds well above the forecast.

Rick

Lugalong
01-24-2016, 05:06 PM
Annie is known for her strong opinions...apparently.:)
I'm a confirmed Junkie but I promise not to get snarky.:)
The way I look at it if someone wants to try a different rig then it's up to them. The TS16 is not a sea boat, the lack of a self draining cockpit sees to that...doesn't mean you can't fit one.;)
As for sailing a JR TS16, well start with light winds and build up the skills and see how she goes. The fact reefing is a pinch of yellow wet stuff is an added safety aspect. The rig doesn't have to be heavy and bulky. Odyssey III cloth for the sail will be more than strong enough. Battens, boom and yard can be fabricated from T5 alloy tube. The mast options have been discussed elsewhere.

Yep, Annie certainy can be less than tactful…………………and I thought I was bad ;)

There is no such thing as an archetypical ’Junkie’…….except for real junkies, of course (drug junkies) and the first owner sailors of real Junks I met were fine people.

These real Junks were wooden boats, like Ying Hong, which was Mike Briant’s Junk, and then there was Ernst Klaar with Maria Jose.
I never saw Ying Hong in the flesh, since Mike was building another Junk at that time, name of which I have forgotten, so started going through a pile of mags and papers to find it………………got very much sidetracked looking through all of that stuff, which hasn’t helped getting this reply posted.

Meantime I see that this thread has turned back to ease of reefing - as you have already mentioned - and I will answer in the affirmative, that yes; the rig does not need to be overly heavy and bulky. That is why I prefer a combination of quadrilateral staysail and jib on the foremast.

Reefing of these sails is not the same doddle as dropping the battened main, but there is no problem in changing them to suit wind………at least in the smaller size boats, say up to a little over 30ft. Over this size a proper Junk configuration, including a foremast, is good.

Choice of materials?.........I had a tapered aluminium spar once, but before ever using it sold it and used a solid grown spar instead. Not at all sorry that I did this, same with using bamboo instead of ally tubing…..which I have also tried.

Years later, by now with a lot more composite materials fabrication experience, I would rather build an epoxy carbon spar than ever use aluminium for a battened lug sail…….changing the configuration a little to suit modern materials is Okay though.

If ever I build another similar rig I think that bendy battens in pockets and an aluminium wishbone would make for a better shaped sail. Keeping the lug/yard and the multipart Junk/sampan sheeting system is of course a no brainer.

brucemoffatt
01-24-2016, 05:28 PM
No, I can't show you how to reef a Bermudan rig in 5 secs with one hand. If it's possible, it's a nice thing to be able to do but I don't think it's worth changing an entire rig just for that.

Of course nothing in sailing is ever always easy.

I wouldn't put a gaff rig or a lug rig on a TS 16. TS 16 already has a great rig (except for that beaky thing ...... ).

Rick

I looked for that on the OP's boat and mercifully it wasn't there. You may sleep easier now.

WX
01-24-2016, 08:09 PM
Yep, Annie certainy can be less than tactful…………………and I thought I was bad ;)

There is no such thing as an archetypical ’Junkie’…….except for real junkies, of course (drug junkies) and the first owner sailors of real Junks I met were fine people.

These real Junks were wooden boats, like Ying Hong, which was Mike Briant’s Junk, and then there was Ernst Klaar with Maria Jose.
I never saw Ying Hong in the flesh, since Mike was building another Junk at that time, name of which I have forgotten, so started going through a pile of mags and papers to find it………………got very much sidetracked looking through all of that stuff, which hasn’t helped getting this reply posted.

Meantime I see that this thread has turned back to ease of reefing - as you have already mentioned - and I will answer in the affirmative, that yes; the rig does not need to be overly heavy and bulky. That is why I prefer a combination of quadrilateral staysail and jib on the foremast.

Reefing of these sails is not the same doddle as dropping the battened main, but there is no problem in changing them to suit wind………at least in the smaller size boats, say up to a little over 30ft. Over this size a proper Junk configuration, including a foremast, is good.

Choice of materials?.........I had a tapered aluminium spar once, but before ever using it sold it and used a solid grown spar instead. Not at all sorry that I did this, same with using bamboo instead of ally tubing…..which I have also tried.

Years later, by now with a lot more composite materials fabrication experience, I would rather build an epoxy carbon spar than ever use aluminium for a battened lug sail…….changing the configuration a little to suit modern materials is Okay though.

If ever I build another similar rig I think that bendy battens in pockets and an aluminium wishbone would make for a better shaped sail. Keeping the lug/yard and the multipart Junk/sampan sheeting system is of course a no brainer.
The problem with bendy battens is that they bend too much as the wind increases. here has been some success using articulated battens. My sail has 8% camber built into the lower parallel panels reduced camber in the top triangular panels which constitute the heavy weather sail. My battens don't bend. There have been some extremely successful wing sails using wishbones as the battens. David Tyler sailed thousands of miles with his yacht rigged as a wing sail schooner. To run head sails on a JR you really need standing rigging which negates one of the other benefits of the rig, being able to boom the sail out square with the centerline.
One last think about windward ability. My outward course was 30 degrees magnetic with a NNW wind, which if I am correct gives me an angle of close to 45 degrees off the wind. That I believe is about average for a cruising yacht. In hindsight I may have picked up a bit more speed if I had bore away a bit more but I'm still learning to sail this rig.

RFNK
01-25-2016, 01:10 AM
45 degrees efficiently Gary. A typical Bermudan yacht will point considerably higher than 45 but will lose speed/efficiency. A TS 16 will fly at 45 with its standard rig. You need to remember that speed into the wind is important as it increases apparent wind and improves windward ability.

I don't want to give the impression that I don't like junk rigs. I do like them. But I don't think they're suitable for a TS 16. Or a Folkboat (Blondie should have been ashamed for what he did to that lovely boat .....).

By the way, if this TS 16 is going to be subjected to this sacrilege, how will the mast be supported and what will that do to the boat's accommodstion?

Rick

WX
01-25-2016, 04:42 AM
45 degrees efficiently Gary. A typical Bermudan yacht will point considerably higher than 45 but will lose speed/efficiency. A TS 16 will fly at 45 with its standard rig. You need to remember that speed into the wind is important as it increases apparent wind and improves windward ability.

I don't want to give the impression that I don't like junk rigs. I do like them. But I don't think they're suitable for a TS 16. Or a Folkboat (Blondie should have been ashamed for what he did to that lovely boat .....).

By the way, if this TS 16 is going to be subjected to this sacrilege, how will the mast be supported and what will that do to the boat's accommodstion?

Rick
The mast will fit between the v-berth. A mast step straddling the stem piece and some ply doubling or greater between the deck beams will stiffen the deck enough for the mast partners.
Jester crossed the Atlantic a number of times with an early version of the Western Junk Rig quite successfully.
All I can say is Redwing has gotten me out of the few moments of OH SH!T I've encountered so far. Ming Ming and Badger have both sailed in high latitudes with out coming to grief, which indicates a certain wind ward ability and that is good enough for me.
This is a slightly uneven comparison between tow similar hulls but different rigs. The Split JR is one would consider cutting edge, or was a couple of years ago.
http://www.pbo.co.uk/seamanship/bermudan-rig-vs-junk-rig-17481
AS for the 45 degrees, are we talking real or apparent wind angle?
And this from a WB thread a couple of years ago.

WX
06-15-2010, 01:10 AM

After the discussion in the Gaff verses Lug rig thread I thought I would check with Junk rig owners to see if my figures were accurate. 45% close hauled is about right for Cambered Junk rig. Arne can get it down to about 85 degrees. Now this doesn't seem much to some but it seems unless you are sailing a racing boat then this figure of 45 degrees is not that bad. Here is some further info that has come my way.

Typical angles to the true wind are as follows. Actual course over the water
will be worse due to leeway.

- about 35° for modern racing yachts which have been optimized for upwind
performance (like America's
Cup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Cup>yachts)

- about 42 to 45° for modern cruiser-racer yachts (fast cruising yachts)
- about 50 to 60° for cruisers with an emphasis on interior space, ease
of handling and often low draught rather than sailing performance, and for
boats carrying two or more masts (since the forward sails adversely affect
the aft sails when sailing upwind)
- close to 90° for square riggers and similar vessels due to the sail
shape which is very ineffective when sailing upwind

http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/index.php/t-115897.html

goanywhere
01-25-2016, 06:43 AM
Interesting WX. Looking at Arne Kverneland's files, he believes that he gets as good windward performance with his Johanna rig, and the way the sail is shaped it certainly takes a nice airfoil shape. He states that he gets better downwind speed than any bermudan rig he can put on his boat.

For the life of me I can't understand why somebody would be so uppity about another boaty wanting to put a different rig on their boat. As for me, I couldn't care less if you wanted to put an old flannelette sheet on a stick on your boat. Same with cars, it's yours, do with it what you want!

At the end of the day I will have all of this sailing season to get used to my current rig. If I really like it (and I intend to learn to sail it as best as I can) then I don't HAVE to change it. But in the mean time I am going to do as much study and reading and talking with people like you and other who have real personal experience with the junk rig, something that most of these nay-sayers don't have, and when I feel the time is right I will decide and proceed accordingly.

Actually it will be possible to mount either rig after I modify the boat to take the junk rig. If I keep all of the existing fittings and hardware for the current rig I can go back and re-install it any time I like. In fact that might be a good thing to do to test the difference in performance with the alternative rigs. If I decide that I don't like the junk rig, all I would be left with is a second mast step, which I can cover up with a hatch, and a second mast that I can even go ahead and fit with a gaff, lug or what ever I want.

Sounds like I could be a sailor-rig-resarcher for the rest of my sailing days!

I built a soft wing sail and mounted it on a 3 metre kayak once, just to see how it would perform. It was an absolute failure, but I had fun doing it and learnt a bit about the theory of laminar air flow in the process. After that I built a fishing/touring kayak, rigged it as a sailing trimaran and have sailed half of the murray in it.

When I go camping I don't take a tent, I sleep in a hammock. I don't know why, but I have always done things just a little different than most with my passions. I once owned a subaru L series 4wd and modified it to go seriously off road. One time I had an absolute blast embarrassing a bunch of Land Cruiser and Patrol snobs who told me I was stupid trying to take that thing where I did. I love being just a bit contrary, and love exploring at the fringe. I don't know why, it's just me.

I think I'm going to have a blast researching, planning, building and sailing my TS16 junk rig. See you out there WX! :d




Isn't that what life is about? Push the envelope, experiment, ask, listen, learn and try different things! Some people have absolutely no idea about that!

Lugalong
01-25-2016, 02:46 PM
The problem with bendy battens is that they bend too much as the wind increases. here has been some success using articulated battens. My sail has 8% camber built into the lower parallel panels reduced camber in the top triangular panels which constitute the heavy weather sail. My battens don't bend. There have been some extremely successful wing sails using wishbones as the battens. David Tyler sailed thousands of miles with his yacht rigged as a wing sail schooner. To run head sails on a JR you really need standing rigging which negates one of the other benefits of the rig, being able to boom the sail out square with the centerline.
One last think about windward ability. My outward course was 30 degrees magnetic with a NNW wind, which if I am correct gives me an angle of close to 45 degrees off the wind. That I believe is about average for a cruising yacht. In hindsight I may have picked up a bit more speed if I had bore away a bit more but I'm still learning to sail this rig.

I haven’t followed it all, but imagine that there’s no end to the things that have been and will be tried with this type of rig…..articulated battens, pocket luffs etc…But my own efforts have always been towards keeping things as uncomplicated as possible, in line with the traditional rig and sail.

Regarding the traditional sail, it is primarily an aggregation of natural fibre, line, spars and cloth used to achieve a robust easily manageable rig .But there is the valid criticism that sail shape is too flat in the forward part……hence your cambered sail cut in the lower panels, although the upper panels could do with some more draught at times too.

Since we have use of materials to relieve us of certain constraints imposed by the original technology, there are options………besides the option to design in a bunch of metal gadgetry, as in the case of BM rig, and bendy battens are one option.
With bamboo battens I used to imagine that I could achieved some draught control by using separate parts (upper and lower parts) in the sheeting system…..a bit like we control camber and draught in a crab claw sail (which is also a flat sail panel) by either easing or hardening the sheet. With the Crabclaw sail, easing the sheet increases the draught and hardening it flattens the sail. But with the battened lugsail there are the angled top battens spoiling the clean flow lines across the sail.
So what I would like to try is the use of a wishbone replacing of the second highly angled batten from the top. Below the wishbone the leech runs straight down to a stiff boom, so bendy battens are not relied on in the same way as they are in the traditional rig…….there is the wishbone and the boom to prevent excess bending, while the battens prevent flogging and pick up the sheetlets.

If the whole point of modern ‘Junk rig’ is to do away with any mast support like shrouds, then I just stay away, because shrouds can be fairly easily slackened on the lee side, allowing the sail to go forward of ‘dead’ abeam if needs be. As long as the mast does not rely entirely on the shrouds to keep it standing then these support lines allow a reduction in mast diameter and weight aloft. Without them, there is a problem with carrying heavy weather staysails.

RFNK
01-25-2016, 05:19 PM
Uppity he says! Well, okay, when it comes to Folkboat modifications, I guess I am - since the Folkboat is a work of art.

But, otherwise, you're completely wrong to write off comments intended to be helpful as naysaying. You started this thread by announcing that you were considering putting a junk rig on a TS 16 - a boat you have no experience with and, it seems, very little knowledge about, to supposedly improve it for cruising. I chimed in when you asked about the suitability of the TS 16 for coastal cruising. When I let you know that they're not really suitable for that, you seemed to resent it. I learnt to sail in a TS 16, think they're great boats, and reckon you've chosen wisely in getting one.

It looks like my little joke about sacrilege didn't go down well. In fact, I admire innovation and have no problem with people experimenting with boats, materials etc. I applaud adventure too. But when someone is considering a set of modifications based on false assumptions, particularly dangerous ones, forgive me if I interfere by pointing them out.

Your basic premise is wrong. You will not improve the safety of a TS 16 by putting a junk rig on it. You will improve its downwind performance and handling but that's all. It might be quicker to reef but reefing a regular rig is easy enough anyway. Windward performance is critical unless you're sailing across an ocean and have lots of time - on our coast and your coast, it's a key safety consideration. It's possible to tech up a junk rig for slightly improved windward performance but even with optimum design and materials, the Bermudans will sail straight past you on anything but a downhill run. You can't heave to with a junk rig. A light boat like a TS 16 carrying all that rig will simply flounder in a big squall.

It seems that you intend to sail the boat with its current rig for a while. I suggest also going along with someone else who knows these boats well and can help you understand them. Try doing the things you want to do with your boat and then see what the limitations are. See what others have done to resolve issues. Too often, we see people trying to justify bad decisions instead of critically analysing their decisions before making them.

By all means, put a junk rig on your boat. But do it for the right reasons. If you do it for the wrong reasons, you'll be disappointed.

Enjoy sailing your TS 16 - a wonderful boat.

Rick

Lugalong
01-25-2016, 07:49 PM
Uppity he says! Well, okay, when it comes to Folkboat modifications, I guess I am - since the Folkboat is a work of art.

You can't heave to with a junk rig. A light boat like a TS 16 carrying all that rig will simply flounder in a big squall.



Rick

Sure a light craft like a TS16 will probably flounder in a squall, being unable to lie hove to if it is hampered with a heavy and tall un-stayed mast and windage of the rig is forward of the CLR…………this is probably what happened to the original Folkboat, Jester, which was rigged with a sampan type rig rather than a proper Junk rig.

Addition of a mizzen mast would possibly help keeping the head into seas, but the weight aloft and windage problem is not helped with a mizzen. In any case a proper Junk rig will have a foremast as well, especially if it carries a mizzen……..which would be right out of the question with this little hull relying mostly on internal ballast.

You need to experience what it is like having a scrap of sail right up in the bows and the top panel of a battened lug sail aft of midships. This configuration will behave very well in high wind and rough seas. Even with shallow draught. In fact the lack of a deep ballast keel will allow the hull to slide sideways and not get tripped up if it gets really well clobbered.

With a lug rig main in this reefed position, there is a whole lot less windage aloft compared to a Bmudan rig….especially relevant to a craft without a ballast keel.

RFNK
01-25-2016, 08:55 PM
Sure a light craft like a TS16 will probably flounder in a squall, being unable to lie hove to if it is hampered with a heavy and tall un-stayed mast and windage of the rig is forward of the CLR…………this is probably what happened to the original Folkboat, Jester, which was rigged with a sampan type rig rather than a proper Junk rig.

Addition of a mizzen mast would possibly help keeping the head into seas, but the weight aloft and windage problem is not helped with a mizzen. In any case a proper Junk rig will have a foremast as well, especially if it carries a mizzen……..which would be right out of the question with this little hull relying mostly on internal ballast.

You need to experience what it is like having a scrap of sail right up in the bows and the top panel of a battened lug sail aft of midships. This configuration will behave very well in high wind and rough seas. Even with shallow draught. In fact the lack of a deep ballast keel will allow the hull to slide sideways and not get tripped up if it gets really well clobbered.

With a lug rig main in this reefed position, there is a whole lot less windage aloft compared to a Bmudan rig….especially relevant to a craft without a ballast keel.

That's interesting. Do you have a picture or diagram of that setup?

Rick

boat fan
01-25-2016, 09:28 PM
Interesting discussion guys , and a lot to think about.

I really like the junk rigs , ( thousands of years of evolution ? ) but I feel Rick is right about the issues installing one on a TS16.

I do applaud people that keep an open mind , especially when boats are the subject of discussion.

It appears that Rick prefers the TS 16 to retain it`s original rig ( or updated version ) and that may well be sound thinking.

Sailing mine , it always felt like a large dinghy to me.

I always thought an open version of that boat , without cabin could be fun.

Lugalong
01-25-2016, 11:25 PM
That's interesting. Do you have a picture or diagram of that setup?

Rick

I do have diagrams and some pics from an old Classic Boat article covering this rig, and I need to get around to working on a web page that I have lying unused in order to show pics here.................as soon as I find a gap in my workshop schedule this will be done. Writing a few words here and there has been easy enough while I have tea breaks, but otherwise there is a lot of dirty work that needs doing first, like having to finish off a drum of resin before it expires.
Must dash off now to do about an acre of lawn mowing before the rain comes.

Chris249
01-25-2016, 11:38 PM
Rick my boat was designed to take a BM rig. I decided to Junk rig her instead. I wonder if we would be having this discussion if the conversion was to a gaff or a Lug rig?:)
There seems to be quite a bit of opposition to the JR.

Some of the JR people seem to be pretty dismissive of other rigs, and that may create the opposition. For example, I was Googling to see how quickly a junk rig could be reefed, and I came across a piece where a well-known member of the JRA asked the rhetorical question "why don't yachtsmen go for the junk rig?" and answered it by saying it was "innate conservatism, and an unwillingness to stand out from the crowd, perhaps?" In other words, he was being insulting and narrow-minded, while also giving himself a mighty pat on the back.

If people like junk rig that's great, but there are good reasons to prefer other rigs. For example the owner of the junk-rigged X99 that is often pointed out as proof that JRs sail fast says that his about is about 9% slower than the standard rig upwind. To some of us that is far too much of a speed loss - plus some of us just LOVE the feeling of our current rigs, and find that they can do many of the things that it is implied that only junk rigs can do.

As noted, it's great if junk rig sailors love their rig. But to infer that those of us who prefer other rigs are "innately conservative and unwilling to stand out" is just insulting rubbish. Some have tried gaff schooner, gaff ketch, gunter sloop, dipping lug cat, ketch, cat ketch (I think), ketch, wingmasted sloop, wingmasted cat, freestanding, runner-dependent, backstayless, triple-stay, diamonds, pocket luff, carbon tip, full carbon, glass tip, timber, alloy, wishbone, cutter, wishbone jib, boom-rolled mains, luff-rolled mains, roll-around-the-mast mains, squaretops, hollow leaches, extended pocket luff, camber induced, drop-foot, yada yada yada, on a variety of hulls from sinker speed windsurfers to maxi monos via Lasers, Canoes, Skiffs and IOR boats. To assume that we can use all those rigs and then run screaming from one because we're "too conservative" is just silly.

If the junk is great for some people that's wonderful, but that doesn't mean that the people it doesn't suit should be disrespected.

PS - the JRA claims 15 seconds rigging and a vid on a tiny boat in light winds seemed to show 12 seconds rigging on a junk. It would be interesting to time it one my bermudan rig, but I rarely reef since it's such a flexible setup. I'll try one day soon.

WX
01-26-2016, 12:49 AM
I can raise my rig in a couple of minutes and reef in a minute. I can crash reef in seconds. To reef I ease the halyard till I have reefed the required number of panels, then tighten up the yard hauling parrel and throat hauling parrel.
If you want to stay with a BM rig then fine I don't have a problem with it. Apart from myself we have one other person with some JR experience on this thread and even then our experiences are different. That's life though isn't it?
I have more to say but we have a visitor and I'm getting the look.:)

goanywhere
01-26-2016, 04:46 AM
Rick, I reckon you would be a great guy to meet, and you certainly make a good case for your views, which I respect. I think this discussion is more like a boistrous good natured discussion at the local pub than anything else, so I am not taking anything personal. But I started this thread asking a question. I asked whether anyone on this site has had experience with a junk rig. I got my answer - yes, but not many.

I also said that I like free standing masts for ease of rigging and use, and I was attracted to the Junk rig for that reason. I got hammered by some for that.

One thing I think you are absolutely wrong about though is that a junk rig on a TS16 means that it is automatically going to founder in rough conditions with "all that rig". That's where our discussion of reefing comes in.

The study plan documentation for the TS16 I have states that the TS16 can be rigged either with a Bermudan rig OR a Gaff rig. Now, we all know that a gaff can either be stayed or unstayed. So can a lug, so can a wingsail etc. etc. Now, the document goes on to give details and diagrams of the Bermudan rig, but not the Gaff rig. I surmise that this is for several reasons.

Firstly, the bermudan rig is recognised as a "bread and butter" design for modern boats, particularly class racing boats and is overwhelmingly the predominant sail plan out there. Secondly, there is little argument about the overall performance of the bermudan rig on a racing boat, probably nearly all boats. So that is why this style of rig is overwhelmingly the most widely used. Accordingly, the marketing world has poured it's money and effort in enhancements and developments in this area, knowing that if they can squeeze out even tiny improvements to this basic template, they can potentially reap a healthy commercial return. That's good marketing and makes sense. Thirdly, it also follows that a youngster learning to sail is more than likely going to be schooled in the use of this sailing design and be thoroughly immersed in it's use and focused on perfecting his/her skills in it's use.

All logical. All fine.

But, to slam any alternative to this design simply because certain characteristics fall short of the standard design (and ignoring other attributes that may be superior) is to disrespect those who have a case to make for alternatives. One example of where an unstayed simple rig is of great benefit is if a novice has to take over the helm at short notice. I'll wager that the ease of use in handling virtually any single sailed, unstayed mast boat is going to give that novice a better chance at rising to the challenge than in your typical bermudan rigged boat. If that isn't a worthy safety feature of any boat I'll eat my shorts.

I didn't start this thread intending to slam the status quo. I actually like the bermudan rig in many ways. I crewed on a HobieCat 18 catamaran which was so rigged, and won some races and a trophy in my first season! I didn't know much about how to sail either. (I just did what I was told). Today I went out for my second only sail in my TS16. After reading and viewing some videos about heaving-to I decided to give it a try. I had never done it before. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it was remarkably easy to achieve. First try, success. That's a great feature of the bermudan rig. (Unfortunately silly me didn't allow for the drift and through inattention found myself drifting into a private marina and needed help from the smiling gentleman on hand to get underway again!)

But I chose to heave to today as a personal training exercise, not because I needed to. If I had to do a similar manoevre in any unstayed rig boat I would simply just let go the sheet, and that would have been it.

I like unstayed rigs. Is that a crime? I happen to think that they have some real advantages for the average sailor. I'm not interested in racing my boat. I like the idea of puttering around and cruising, within it's limits. I think that an easy to rig and handle sailing rig makes sense for a cruising boat. I think that such a rig could be designed to match my boat very well. I think that there are designers capable of taking all the characteristics of the boat's design into account in designing one. I don't think they have to be haters of the bermudan rig to achieve this. Maybe some people want to consume their emotional energy hating things that they do not personally prefer, but that's not me.

I can like you and respect your comments and opinions without hating the things I either don't know or don't agree with. I think that this thread has demonstrated that for the most part all of us who have participated in it have the same attitude. We love wooden boats. We want to spread the joys we all experience "messing about" in them.

For me, I like the idea of leisurely sailing a boat that has all the benefits of the TS16 design, and combining them with the attractive attributes of a rig like the junk rig. (Although to be honest, it was the fantastic deal I got on this boat that won me over in favour of building another design |:)). Some people might think that this is an impossible dream, and to try to do so is akin to flirting with death.

Come on people! I think we can all give credit to the ingenuity of the human race to be able to achieve that design brief!

I haven't done the dastardly deed yet. I still am learning to sail my boat as is. I will even ask for help! I might even invest in some gear that will make it better! But I think that once the autumn weather starts to give way to the cold, you can expect that I will be beavering away with tools in my secret laboratory hatching my evil plan! Then if any other hapless soul asks the same question I will be able to give them an intelligent answer. (If it's "FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T!!" you can all have a laugh on me!).

WX
01-26-2016, 05:46 AM
Early Chinese Junks had free standing masts (PM me for the proof if you need it). It was the Europeans for introducing cheap rope and steel cabling which enabled the Chinese to use thinner cheaper masts. However standing rigging removes a strong point of the rig, namely the ability to square the sail to the ships centerline.

RFNK
01-26-2016, 07:58 AM
Heaving to isn't a case of just letting everything go! Of course you can do that in any boat. Heaving to holds the head to the wind - a very important strategy when the conditions demand it. I didn't say the TS 16 with a junk rig will founder. Hopefully that will never happen to you! I said it would just flounder - as in, flop around, if you just let everything go. Try it with your current rig in wind and a bit of a sea. Instead of heaving to, just let everything go (drop the sails or not) and see how you go. Then remember that with a junk rig, that's your only option.

Having seen junk rig pilots in the cockpit covered in lines, I don't think I'd be handing the helm of one to any inexperienced crew member! Not unless I wanted to see them end up like Capt Ahab! :)

I think your approach is fine. Sail your new boat to its limits and then see what changes you might want to make. If you put a junk rig on it and it proves to be all you hope, then please let us know. I really will be the happiest person to hear it.

Rick

goanywhere
01-26-2016, 05:14 PM
Heaving to isn't a case of just letting everything go! Of course you can do that in any boat. Heaving to holds the head to the wind - a very important strategy when the conditions demand it. I didn't say the TS 16 with a junk rig will founder. Hopefully that will never happen to you! I said it would just flounder - as in, flop around, if you just let everything go. Try it with your current rig in wind and a bit of a sea. Instead of heaving to, just let everything go (drop the sails or not) and see how you go. Then remember that with a junk rig, that's your only option.

Having seen junk rig pilots in the cockpit covered in lines, I don't think I'd be handing the helm of one to any inexperienced crew member! Not unless I wanted to see them end up like Capt Ahab! :)

I think your approach is fine. Sail your new boat to its limits and then see what changes you might want to make. If you put a junk rig on it and it proves to be all you hope, then please let us know. I really will be the happiest person to hear it.

Rick

Yes, I can see that not being able to heave to in the normal sense could be an issue in a bad spot. I wonder how other single masted boats manage this? Some use a mizzen to achieve the same thing, but without one I'm not sure. WX if you read this, how do you manage a "heave to" with your JR?

RFNK
01-26-2016, 05:38 PM
You're probably all familiar with this article but, as I just found it, I thought I'd put it up for those who may not have seen it: http://www.pbo.co.uk/seamanship/bermudan-rig-vs-junk-rig-17481

Rick

goanywhere
01-26-2016, 07:36 PM
You're probably all familiar with this article but, as I just found it, I thought I'd put it up for those who may not have seen it: http://www.pbo.co.uk/seamanship/bermudan-rig-vs-junk-rig-17481

Rick

Thanks for that Rick. I hadn't come across that article. I think it encapsulates and summarised our whole discussion! Regarding upwind performance, I do believe that cambered sailed junks achieve better speeds than the flatter sails. As for the other aspects, the comparison here seems to confirm your points about overall performance of the Bermudan vs the Junk, and my points about overall ease of handling. Based on this article I'd still lean to the junk rig for myself, but I can see that it will come at the cost of some degree of overall performance.

Anything else you find on this I'm happy to receive!

Cheers, Steve.

WX
01-26-2016, 07:42 PM
Yes, I can see that not being able to heave to in the normal sense could be an issue in a bad spot. I wonder how other single masted boats manage this? Some use a mizzen to achieve the same thing, but without one I'm not sure. WX if you read this, how do you manage a "heave to" with your JR?
I've never had to heave to as yet. I can stop the boat by bringing her into the wind and letting the sheet go which allows the sail to feather. I am still learning myself.
Regarding
Early Chinese Junks had free standing masts (PM me for the proof if you need it)., it sounds a bit odd. What I should have written is I have a PDF version of Ships of China if anyone would like a copy PM me your email address.

WX
01-26-2016, 07:53 PM
You're probably all familiar with this article but, as I just found it, I thought I'd put it up for those who may not have seen it: http://www.pbo.co.uk/seamanship/bermudan-rig-vs-junk-rig-17481

Rick
I had posted that earlier. It's a good article.

RFNK
01-26-2016, 09:03 PM
I've never had to heave to as yet. I can stop the boat by bringing her into the wind and letting the sheet go which allows the sail to feather. I am still learning myself.
Regarding , it sounds a bit odd. What I should have written is I have a PDF version of Ships of China if anyone would like a copy PM me your email address.

I've never had to either. But when I do need to, I think I'll be glad I can, that I know how and that I've practiced.

By the way, I wasn't suggesting your boat was designed for junk rig - I know it wasn't. What I meant was that you built it for junk rig. That's quite different to modifying a boat to accommodate junk rig.

A thought: of course a junk mast needs to be shifted forward of a bermudan mast. And I just read that the bury of a junk mast needs to be 5% of the length (or is it 10% - now I can't remember!). Is that going to be a problem in a TS 16? I don't have any plans of one and I can't remember what the configuration is down below. Probably because I rarely went in there!

Another thought: The ply deck of a 40 year old TS is likely to have some issues. If your deck is going to need to provide the lateral support necessary for an unstayed mast, you'll need to check that out very carefully.

Rick

WX
01-26-2016, 09:37 PM
I've never had to either. But when I do need to, I think I'll be glad I can, that I know how and that I've practiced.

By the way, I wasn't suggesting your boat was designed for junk rig - I know it wasn't. What I meant was that you built it for junk rig. That's quite different to modifying a boat to accommodate junk rig.

A thought: of course a junk mast needs to be shifted forward of a bermudan mast. And I just read that the bury of a junk mast needs to be 5% of the length (or is it 10% - now I can't remember!). Is that going to be a problem in a TS 16? I don't have any plans of one and I can't remember what the configuration is down below. Probably because I rarely went in there!

Another thought: The ply deck of a 40 year old TS is likely to have some issues. If your deck is going to need to provide the lateral support necessary for an unstayed mast, you'll need to check that out very carefully.

Rick


The bury is 10%.
I realised after I had replied Rick that I had slightly misunderstood your comment. I only decided on converting to a JR after I decided to finish the boat. The chainplates for a Burmudan rig are still in place. Fit a compression post and a decktop mast step and she could easily be turned back into a BM rig. The only change I made to the hull was fitting the mast step and cutting a reinforced hole in the foredeck for the mast. Converting to a JR is not that drastic and can easily be reversed.

RFNK
01-27-2016, 12:28 AM
Oh! So there's hope for you yet! :D

Rick

Paul G.
01-27-2016, 02:42 AM
Some random observations/conclusions after having owned, raced and cruised a TS16 for 5 seasons and participated in Hartley race management for another 2…including being party to the recovery of 5 or 6 boats during that time.I have seen TS16’s invert in 5kn of wind and when tied to a pier when the crews found themselves on the wrong side of the boat. In big winds I have seen very experienced skippers invert trying to gybe. A TS16 cannot be sailed downwind with the plate down in any sort of wind without tripping over it. They are just fat dinghies dependant on crew mass and form stability. Time to reef is irrelevant as in all dinghies you can find yourself in the drink in milliseconds. A TS16 will rapidly turn turtle and is very stable inverted, self rescue is not on the cards. When righted with a belly full of water you will find that the (open) top of the centreplate case is below water line, in retrieving a boat we always had to stuff towels/rags/clothing into the slot before bailing like buggery. Any cruising gear or extra ballast as suggested above, would only exacerbate this problem. They do heave to nicely when the swells aren’t too big. Good way to relax when killing time before race starts or when drifting for flatties!The hull and deck is only 6mm ply, a freestanding mast would require some serious structural work. As this would be a deck off job, it might allow a sealed bulkhead to be installed to give the pointy end some more buoyancy when the boat is upside down…they float with the bow deep down. I really enjoyed sailing TS16’s, but I’m not that much of a purist to want to see every example preserved. As the TS16 market seems quite depressed (like all boats I ‘spose) you won’t take such a big hit on resale value on a non-class boat if you do mod it.Get a copy of the TS16 Association's excellent booklet "The Hartley TS16 Cruising Guide", it has some useful sections on buoyancy and hypothermia :d.Cheers,HansNot quite the ideal junk rig hull don't you think?

Lugalong
01-27-2016, 03:43 AM
Early Chinese Junks had free standing masts (PM me for the proof if you need it). It was the Europeans for introducing cheap rope and steel cabling which enabled the Chinese to use thinner cheaper masts. However standing rigging removes a strong point of the rig, namely the ability to square the sail to the ships centerline.

It's a bit of a mystery what masts the earliest Junks carried, but all we can rely on is what is found in Worcester's Junks and Sampans of the Yangtze.

My well thumbed copy is the source of the difference in what I think constitutes either a Junk or a Sampan.......Worcester writes that a Junk is "the common type of sailing vessel in the China seas", and the common type of seagoing craft has more than one mast, as his book shows.
So I continue to recognise the difference, but you have a good point in that European introduction of standing rigging may have come by way of the Lorcha.

There is the interesting example of the Chusan fisherman (little pair boat) which used sprits l's and also a staysail, and which was nevertheless a Junk. It had the freestanding mast which is apparently the primary 'Junk' feature according to current nomenclature. This feature seems to be so important that I concede all my experience to be null and void.

There was a discussion by the crew of the Junk Elf Chine, later renamed Le Dame de Canton, about whether their foremast might have remained standing in a jibe, rather than coming down as the battens slammed the w/ward shrouds......it was inconclusive, as far as I knew.
Size of this large Junk makes it irrelevant to this discussion, although I did fold a few bamboo battens in a jibe on a much smaller craft. However, there is the possibility that I would not have gotten to be running in the trades when this happened, if not for the rigging keeping the mast standing up to that point.

WX
01-27-2016, 04:06 AM
Not quite the ideal junk rig hull don't you think?

You can put a JR on anything you can put any other rig on.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=junk+rigged+dinghies&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1mvXk0cnKAhXDKWMKHYYaC4kQ_AUIBygB&biw=1200&bih=577

WX
01-27-2016, 04:12 AM
It's a bit of a mystery what masts the earliest Junks carried, but all we can rely on is what is found in Worcester's Junks and Sampans of the Yangtze.

My well thumbed copy is the source of the difference in what I think constitutes either a Junk or a Sampan.......Worcester writes that a Junk is "the common type of sailing vessel in the China seas", and the common type of seagoing craft has more than one mast, as his book shows.
So I continue to recognise the difference, but you have a good point in that European introduction of standing rigging may have come by way of the Lorcha.

There is the interesting example of the Chusan fisherman (little pair boat) which used sprits l's and also a staysail, and which was nevertheless a Junk. It had the freestanding mast which is apparently the primary 'Junk' feature according to current nomenclature. This feature seems to be so important that I concede all my experience to be null and void.

There was a discussion by the crew of the Junk Elf Chine, later renamed Le Dame de Canton, about whether their foremast might have remained standing in a jibe, rather than coming down as the battens slammed the w/ward shrouds......it was inconclusive, as far as I knew.
Size of this large Junk makes it irrelevant to this discussion, although I did fold a few bamboo battens in a jibe on a much smaller craft. However, there is the possibility that I would not have gotten to be running in the trades when this happened, if not for the rigging keeping the mast standing up to that point.
PM your email address and I'll send you the book Ships of China by Valetin J Sokoloff. The drawings are quite something.

WX
01-27-2016, 04:28 AM
All these JR boats are sailing to windward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN_V3KGprdU

goanywhere
01-27-2016, 06:09 AM
Some random observations/conclusions after having owned, raced and cruised a TS16 for 5 seasons and participated in Hartley race management for another 2…including being party to the recovery of 5 or 6 boats during that time.

I have seen TS16’s invert in 5kn of wind and when tied to a pier when the crews found themselves on the wrong side of the boat. In big winds I have seen very experienced skippers invert trying to gybe. A TS16 cannot be sailed downwind with the plate down in any sort of wind without tripping over it. They are just fat dinghies dependant on crew mass and form stability. Time to reef is irrelevant as in all dinghies you can find yourself in the drink in milliseconds.

A TS16 will rapidly turn turtle and is very stable inverted, self rescue is not on the cards. When righted with a belly full of water you will find that the (open) top of the centreplate case is below water line, in retrieving a boat we always had to stuff towels/rags/clothing into the slot before bailing like buggery. Any cruising gear or extra ballast as suggested above, would only exacerbate this problem.

They do heave to nicely when the swells aren’t too big. Good way to relax when killing time before race starts or when drifting for flatties!

The hull and deck is only 6mm ply, a freestanding mast would require some serious structural work. As this would be a deck off job, it might allow a sealed bulkhead to be installed to give the pointy end some more buoyancy when the boat is upside down…they float with the bow deep down.

I really enjoyed sailing TS16’s, but I’m not that much of a purist to want to see every example preserved. As the TS16 market seems quite depressed (like all boats I ‘spose) you won’t take such a big hit on resale value on a non-class boat if you do mod it.

Get a copy of the TS16 Association's excellent booklet "The Hartley TS16 Cruising Guide", it has some useful sections on buoyancy and hypothermia :d.

Cheers,
Hans

So what does that all mean? If you can turtle a TS16 in 5 knots then someone should get a class action going against the designer! (Probably too late for that though).

I have ordered the TS16 Cruising Guide as you recommend.

Chris249
01-27-2016, 06:14 AM
All these JR boats are sailing to windward.


Has anyone said they can't sail to windward? It's just that even the guy many people in the JRA point to an authority on performance boats and junk rigs say that they are about 9% slower than a bermudan upwind. Junk rigs have their advantages and it's great if people like you love them, but they also have issues - like any rig does.

Personally I dislike the classic modern masthead rig, with its roller-furling headsail and rigid spar, but many people love them..... that's cool, lots of people would dislike my rigs too. Different strokes for different folks. It's just when people start making snarky comments about the personality of those who prefer other sailplans, as some JR people do, that it gets a bit annoying.

goanywhere
01-27-2016, 07:13 AM
Has anyone said they can't sail to windward? It's just that even the guy many people in the JRA point to an authority on performance boats and junk rigs say that they are about 9% slower than a bermudan upwind. Junk rigs have their advantages and it's great if people like you love them, but they also have issues - like any rig does.

Personally I dislike the classic modern masthead rig, with its roller-furling headsail and rigid spar, but many people love them..... that's cool, lots of people would dislike my rigs too. Different strokes for different folks. It's just when people start making snarky comments about the personality of those who prefer other sailplans, as some JR people do, that it gets a bit annoying.

That 9% slower figure was with a standard flat junk sail I think. Although not backed with scientific testing, the newer contoured designs are said to sail to windward as well as a Bermudan rig. Maybe that's angle not speed though.

RFNK
01-27-2016, 08:17 AM
40 years ago, there'd have been junks everywhere along the coast of Vietnam. Sadly, they're all gone now. In 4 years there, the only junk rig I saw was a novelty rig on a tourist boat in Ha Long Bay. It must have been fantastic seeing the great fleets from Phan Thiet and Da Nang sailing out. The boats are still beautiful but they no longer sail.

If I was going to build a junk rigged boat, I think I'd try to replicate a Vietnamese fishing boat.

I'm not suggesting anyone else should do that. It's just what I would do. It would be great to involve older builders and fisher folk from the central provinces.

Rick

Chris249
01-27-2016, 09:27 AM
That 9% slower figure was with a standard flat junk sail I think. Although not backed with scientific testing, the newer contoured designs are said to sail to windward as well as a Bermudan rig. Maybe that's angle not speed though.

The X 99 not only has cambered panels, but (unlike the normal X99) a carbon mast. Source - http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/top-50-advantages-junk-rig-49409-4.html Arne writes a lot for the JRA and is, I think, a sailmaker.

In the latest post it seems that the owner is speaking of the JR being 10% slower all-round, whereas earlier he was talking about it being good downwind but about 10% slower upwind.

I'm NOT saying it's a big issue. It's like my Laser - it's a lot slower than my 20' cat or one of my windsurfers, but I still love sailing it. My only concerns are that we should try to use objective information and not to diss those who prefer different boats or rigs.

WX
01-27-2016, 04:05 PM
Hans you don't need to take the deck off to fit a mast step and reinforced hole through the deck. That is a bit extreme.

WX
01-27-2016, 04:11 PM
Steve,

TS16's are rather idiosyncratic little boats, perhaps not as benign as you might think. Could I seriously suggest getting to know the boat by sailing it under varying conditions before you contemplate such radical surgery?

On a lighter note, how about a ketch?

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo74/Imprimis517/WBA001_zpsxagexuxl.jpg

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo74/Imprimis517/WBA004_zpsbykei9e1.jpg

Cheers,
Hans
Has a JR maim sail.

WX
01-27-2016, 04:42 PM
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/top-50-advantages-junk-rig-49409-5.html
See post 75.
All up a very good thread and well worth reading. Anything Arne Kverneland or David Tyler have to say about the JR is worth reading. David has 80,000 miles under his keel and with the JR. Arne has wide experience with a number of rigs and was the first Westerner to come up with a truly workable cambered sail. Which I've copied.

WX
01-27-2016, 04:43 PM
Has a JR maim sail.

But I can't see how it's sheeted.

WX
01-27-2016, 04:47 PM
Oh! So there's hope for you yet! :D

Rick

Nah...I like my rig. I wouldn't mind making a another sail one day. The present one is not as tidy as I'd like.

goanywhere
01-28-2016, 05:09 PM
Steve,

TS16's are rather idiosyncratic little boats, perhaps not as benign as you might think. Could I seriously suggest getting to know the boat by sailing it under varying conditions before you contemplate such radical surgery?

On a lighter note, how about a ketch?

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo74/Imprimis517/WBA001_zpsxagexuxl.jpg

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo74/Imprimis517/WBA004_zpsbykei9e1.jpg

Cheers,
Hans

Oh Yeah! Beautiful boat! "Renovator's dream". Love the office chair in the cockpit.

WX
01-28-2016, 06:50 PM
Quite an eccentric rig, I wonder how well it sails? And I'd love to know how the main is sheeted.

WX
01-28-2016, 07:25 PM
It sailed well enough to be launched, parked at the jetty and later retrieved. Only the headsails appear to be sheeted.

Not a Junk rig, just rigged with junk:D:D
I'll see your :D:D and raise you :D

goanywhere
01-28-2016, 07:29 PM
I can reassure all of you looking out for my welfare that mine won't be set up like that one��

WX
01-28-2016, 10:18 PM
See the PDF in post No1.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/top-50-advantages-junk-rig-49409.html
Remember it was done with a sense of humour.:)

WX
01-28-2016, 10:19 PM
I can reassure all of you looking out for my welfare that mine won't be set up like that one��
Unlike those two old goons in the UK.:)

goanywhere
01-29-2016, 08:17 PM
Unlike those two old goons in the UK.:)

I'm not saying anything against it. It obviously suits the owners, but I'm going to try to make mine a bit tidier if nothing else :p.

It would be interesting to ask where that boat has been in it's lifetime. Looks like it has seen a few sea miles.

goanywhere
01-29-2016, 08:54 PM
Seeing as proposing a junk sail on my TS16 stirs up so much controversy, I might as well throw in another thought just to upset the purists. I'm not too fond of the centreboard trunk in the middle of the TS16. It makes getting in and out of there a bit of a chore. Also as has been pointed out, in a knockdown it is like a huge hole in the hull and just lets water straight in, as well as the heavy steel board being prone to drop down straight into the trunk making recovery even harder. I am considering taking it out and replacing it with a leeboard A la Michalak style. I don't see why this couldn't work nicely. Leeboards work very well and are relatively easy to build. Also, then I could fit a water ballast tank on the bottom of the hull where the centreboard trunk lived.

Any thoughts?

upchurchmr
01-29-2016, 09:02 PM
A water tank is going to be virtually useless compared to a drop down steel centerboard for righting moment.

boat fan
01-29-2016, 09:11 PM
Wow !

Its morphing into something.......

other than a TS 16 :D.

Are you considering a single leeboard ?
I know that the late Phil Bolger once commented that assymmetric centreboards " bothered their owners more than the boats themselves " , or words to that effect , but keep in mind that the TS 16 is a rather beamy boat for its length .I would think a single leeboard would have to be somewhat less effective when on the windward side on such a beamy boat , ( much less board in the water ?)

More drag from surface piercing foil too.

boat fan
01-29-2016, 09:15 PM
A water tank is going to be virtually useless compared to a drop down steel centerboard for righting moment.

I don`t know , weight is weight.
How much ( weight ) in how large a tank ?

Larger boat at 20 ft , but still just a dinghy style hull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYrFXsHzvcghttp://

17 ft Bay raider water ballast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWn_6OnMikA

WX
01-30-2016, 12:36 AM
Bungie tacking a JR. Probably work on other rigs as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScnZxiHsnKg

Chris249
01-30-2016, 04:21 AM
/\ Lots of yachts and dinghies can do that. There's also no correlation (in my experience) between the seaworthiness or handling ability of a boat, and whether it can "bungy tack". A Laser can "bungy tack" but many seaworthy cruising boats cannot.

WX
01-30-2016, 05:19 AM
/\ Lots of yachts and dinghies can do that. There's also no correlation (in my experience) between the seaworthiness or handling ability of a boat, and whether it can "bungy tack". A Laser can "bungy tack" but many seaworthy cruising boats cannot.

I have yet to try it.

upchurchmr
01-30-2016, 09:08 AM
Weight is not weight.
If the center of the weight is 2' below the boat with the centerboard, it has more restoring moment when the boat is heeled compared to the same weight at the bottom of the boat.

The whole point is that when the boat heels, the restoring moment depends upon the horizontal distance between the buoyancy and the weight.
A water ballast tank CG will be much closer to the buoyancy center, which means you will have to have a lots more weight to get equal effect.

Generally a lite weight dingy style boat performs much worse with more weight. It also generally will not have the freeboard to add a lots of weight and be safe.

goanywhere
01-30-2016, 10:05 AM
Weight is not weight.
If the center of the weight is 2' below the boat with the centerboard, it has more restoring moment when the boat is heeled compared to the same weight at the bottom of the boat.

The whole point is that when the boat heels, the restoring moment depends upon the horizontal distance between the buoyancy and the weight.
A water ballast tank CG will be much closer to the buoyancy center, which means you will have to have a lots more weight to get equal effect.

Generally a lite weight dingy style boat performs much worse with more weight. It also generally will not have the freeboard to add a lots of weight and be safe.

At the moment I have a steel plate centre board. It weighs 60kg I think (It could be 80kg, as this is the recommended lower amount in the specs). It works ok, but it really cramps up the entry to the cabin. Also, it can be a nuisance. When I was launching the boat for the first time, the boat got stuck on the trailer because it was a very low tide and I couldn't back the trailer in far enough to float the boat completely off the trailer. The centreboard stuck out just enough to catch on the trailer and it took 3 men to manhandle it free. Also, when I was about to dock after sailing, I went to lift the board with the block and rope setup, and the far block on the mast support came away. I had a real job to get the board up so I could get the boat on the trailer.

As I see it, 150 - 200kg of water ballast could allow the floor of the cabin to be unobstructed and give about the same righting moment than the steel centre board.

Water ballast is also variable and can be dumped on retrieval of the boat, so it won't be any more difficult to tow and launch. Lots of boats with similar hull profiles to the TS16 have water ballast. Also, it can be varied according to the amount of load in the boat and the conditions.

Alternatively I could bolt steel or lead pigs to the bottom.

As for the leeboard, only one is necessary. Generally leeboard are longer than centre boards so that they can allow for heeling of the boat. Jim Mickalak and others design leeboards to kick up if they hit ground or any object so it is not necessary to pull up the board in order to safely beach. They are also lighter than the galv steel plate centreboard on my TS16, so if necessary can be easily removed for maintenance or repair. The steel one is a two man job and I wouldn't relish the idea of pulling it out in a pinch.

I'm not totally committed to the leeboard idea, but it seems to me that there is quite a bit going for it. According to the study plans the TS16's ballast can be augmented with up to 150kg extra ballast for a cruising version.

Any other ideas? Maybe ballasted bilge keels instead of the centreboard?

boat fan
01-30-2016, 06:27 PM
Weight is not weight.
If the center of the weight is 2' below the boat with the centerboard, it has more restoring moment when the boat is heeled compared to the same weight at the bottom of the boat.

The whole point is that when the boat heels, the restoring moment depends upon the horizontal distance between the buoyancy and the weight.
A water ballast tank CG will be much closer to the buoyancy center, which means you will have to have a lots more weight to get equal effect.

Generally a lite weight dingy style boat performs much worse with more weight. It also generally will not have the freeboard to add a lots of weight and be safe.

Of course it matters where it`s distributed ....sheesh ...I did not think that needed to be pointed out!
Lets be sensible about this please.

Those swallow boats show it clearly.And they ARE dinghies.

boat fan
01-30-2016, 06:37 PM
Any other ideas? Maybe ballasted bilge keels instead of the centreboard?

I would be looking at that most closely in your case .

upchurchmr
01-30-2016, 07:44 PM
I'll leave you alone.
But you are raising the ballast, and apparently adding a heavy mast/ rig up high.
Both of which make the boat more unstable.

Personally I don't think that is a good idea.
Have fun

WX
01-30-2016, 07:58 PM
I'll leave you alone.
But you are raising the ballast, and apparently adding a heavy mast/ rig up high.
Both of which make the boat more unstable.

Personally I don't think that is a good idea.
Have fun


The rig does not have to be heavy. Also as you reef the CG lowers. Google Junk rigged dinghies, sailed within the limitations of the hull it's not a problem.

WX
01-30-2016, 08:03 PM
I came across this while looking to see if I could find any photos TS16s or 18s with bilge keels.
http://hartley-ts.com.au/GalleryPics/124bbd72-539c-11e0-9cff-00304833c452.jpg