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View Full Version : Do you think some Dems will not vote in 2016 if Hillary is on the ballot?



genglandoh
01-14-2016, 11:03 AM
Over the weekend we had a get together with some friends.
One of our female friends said that if the election is between Hillary and Trump she would not vote.
She is a democrat who supports Sanders and she really hates Hillary.

This is just one person but I think if Hillary continues to attack Sanders with lies more people will do the same.
It will be interesting to see if the Dems will show up to vote in Nov.

What do you think?

LeeG
01-14-2016, 11:18 AM
I think more people will come out to vote for the lessor of two weevils if one of them is Trump

leikec
01-14-2016, 11:29 AM
Most Democrats will vote the democratic ticket even if they are turned off by Hillary. As I wrote in another post--Hillary will lose some left edge democratic votes compared to Sanders, but she will draw many moderate GOP voters away from a hard right conservative Republican nominee.

The other reason Democrats will vote for either Democratic nominee is that Democrats understand that the 2016 election is as much about the future makeup of the SCOTUS as it is about picking a president.

Jeff C

Keith Wilson
01-14-2016, 11:53 AM
Some, but not many. Hillary-loathing is pretty much confined to those who wouldn't vote for any Democrat under any circumstances. I think overall she'll increase Democratic turnout by being the first female candidate in 220 years who has a good chance of winning

TomF
01-14-2016, 11:56 AM
I don't doubt that some Dems will stay home rather than vote for Hillary. Any number of reasons out there - pick one. She's female. She's centrist. She's hawkish. She's sharp tongued. She's ambitious. She's a Clinton. She's tied to the economic Status Quo. Etc.

Some folks stayed home rather than vote for Obama too, each time he ran. He was too glib. Too inexperienced. Too black. Too male. Too educated. Too socialist. Too capitalist. Too ambitious. Too timid. Too conciliatory. Too divisive. Too etc.

The questions are always: will more come out to vote for the person than would have done for an alternative Dem candidate? What will be the impact on turnout for the Republican candidate? And how will those things "net" out?

Durnik
01-14-2016, 12:00 PM
Most Democrats will vote the democratic ticket even if they are turned off by Hillary. As I wrote in another post--Hillary will lose some left edge democratic votes compared to Sanders, but she will draw many moderate GOP voters away from a hard right conservative Republican nominee.

The other reason Democrats will vote for either Democratic nominee is that Democrats understand that the 2016 election is as much about the future makeup of the SCOTUS as it is about picking a president.

Jeff C

I think you'll find that's what Bernie is doing - Hillary, however, will draw the fiscal conservatives (see "Anybody but Trump") away if, & only if, Trump wins the Republican nomination - which is a possibility.

As for this election being about SCOTUS nominees - A Big 10-4, good buddy! And that's (yet another reason) why backing Bernie, the Democrat most likely to win, is so very damn important!

Over & over, I am amazed to find Hillary fans unable to see just how repugnant she is to a huge segment of Americas voting population - as if somehow, their single mindedness will 'carry the country'. Hint, it won't.

Meanwhile, I suspect (& hope) that true Democratic voters (along with independents tired of the dynasties/same old, same old) will support Bernie, if & when, he is nominated.


ETA:
Hillary-loathing is pretty much confined to those who wouldn't vote for any Democrat under any circumstances.

Ahh, no. There is a huge underswell of people (millienials/independents) who know the system has dis-enfranchised them - & a very large many of them do _not_ support Trump.. even more don't support Hillary. They do, however, support Bernie. If you want their support, you have to give them reason. 'Same ole, same ole' is _not_ a valid reason.

enjoy
bobby

ccmanuals
01-14-2016, 01:13 PM
I think the radical candidates being offered by the right will energize democrats to show up in record numbers and vote for either Hillary or Bernie.

Gerarddm
01-14-2016, 01:46 PM
Since Tom summed it up neatly this absurd thread can be locked now.

Norman Bernstein
01-14-2016, 02:53 PM
Over the weekend we had a get together with some friends.
One of our female friends said that if the election is between Hillary and Trump she would not vote.
She is a democrat who supports Sanders and she really hates Hillary.

In that case, she's either a Trump supporter... or an idiot. If she doesn't support Trump, then NOT voting is effectively a vote for Trump, and 'symbolic' voting is a fool's game... it does absolutely no good and makes no 'statement', if that what she's thinking.

Keith Wilson
01-14-2016, 02:59 PM
. . . & a very large many of them do _not_ support Trump.. even more don't support Hillary.Even more? Yeah, right. More young people don't like Hillary than don't like Trump? Sorry, but that one rides off into the sunset on a sparkly pink unicorn.

skuthorp
01-14-2016, 03:04 PM
I think you'll find that's what Bernie is doing - Hillary, however, will draw the fiscal conservatives (see "Anybody but Trump") away if, & only if, Trump wins the Republican nomination - which is a possibility.

Over & over, I am amazed to find Hillary fans unable to see just how repugnant she is to a huge segment of Americas voting population - as if somehow, their single mindedness will 'carry the country'. Hint, it won't.

Name me an established politician who isn't in that category. They all come with baggage, even supposed first timers.

slug
01-14-2016, 04:35 PM
Over the weekend we had a get together with some friends.
One of our female friends said that if the election is between Hillary and Trump she would not vote.
She is a democrat who supports Sanders and she really hates Hillary.

This is just one person but I think if Hillary continues to attack Sanders with lies more people will do the same.
It will be interesting to see if the Dems will show up to vote in Nov.

What do you think?

perhaps...most likely they will be stoned , forget what day it is and not vote.......

genglandoh
01-14-2016, 06:22 PM
In that case, she's either a Trump supporter... or an idiot. If she doesn't support Trump, then NOT voting is effectively a vote for Trump, and 'symbolic' voting is a fool's game... it does absolutely no good and makes no 'statement', if that what she's thinking.

You must not have read the OP correctly.
She is a Democrat and a Sanders supporter.
When she said she would not vote of Hillary or Trump she was a little emotional.
Being a friendly get together we all quickly changed the subject.

It is very possible that her anger at Hillary will dissipate over time.

If Hillary wins the nomination by attacking Sanders she risks losing the vote of Sanders supporters.

Tom Montgomery
01-14-2016, 06:46 PM
You crack me up! :D

ccmanuals
01-14-2016, 06:46 PM
What republicans fail to understand is that democrats don't see disagreement over policy as "attacking" the opponent. I'm pretty sure that democrats will happily pull the lever for either Hillary or Bernie.

Chris Coose
01-14-2016, 06:47 PM
I think when I get together with friends I avoid any mention of this or any election, especially when a party troll tosses out ****ty bait..

Durnik
01-14-2016, 07:25 PM
Even more? Yeah, right. More young people don't like Hillary than don't like Trump? Sorry, but that one rides off into the sunset on a sparkly pink unicorn.


I said -

There is a huge underswell of people (millienials/independents) who know the system has dis-enfranchised them - & a very large many of them do _not_ support Trump.. even more don't support Hillary.

I'll agree an '&' would have been clearer than the '/', still, you usually have better comprehension than that.

That said, young folks I talk with are enthused about Bernie.. dismissive of Hillary. Who knows if they'll bother to vote if Hillary gets the nod - but you can bet the independents won't vote for Hillary - Trump/Ryan/Cruz are their secondary choices.

Now let's stop with the dismissive 'sparkly pink unicorn' crap. Scoffing at other views is no way to learn, _or_ carry on a conversation.

& Jeff, you refer to this?
'Pol in question' fans unable to see just how repugnant she is (they are) to a huge segment of Americas voting population

I agree - but we're talking scale here - as in the same category as the Irish fellow is getting. There is a curious coincidence of misanthropy, despite of liberal (anything) & Bill was bad - his wife must be too, coupled with just plain "don't like or trust Hillary" going on right now. Thinking people aren't involved (with the first three points), but their failure to recognize this & the possible (likely) effects doesn't speak well of their thinking. I want a Democratic president (& Congress) to win the next election as much as anybody - but I question if that will happen if Hillary is chosen to run.

Meanwhile, JoP has asked twice who knows anyone who responded to the polls - while we can see the 100's of thousands who flock to hear & support Bernie. We _know_ the media is dismissive of Sanders.. & the DNC is openly supporting Clinton to the exclusion of others.. I sense a serious disconnect in 'vote Hillary' fans.

enjoy
bobby

John Smith
01-14-2016, 07:34 PM
Some, but not many. Hillary-loathing is pretty much confined to those who wouldn't vote for any Democrat under any circumstances. I think overall she'll increase Democratic turnout by being the first female candidate in 220 years who has a good chance of winning

What SHOULD increase Democratic turnout is the Supreme Court nominees.

John Smith
01-14-2016, 07:36 PM
I think you'll find that's what Bernie is doing - Hillary, however, will draw the fiscal conservatives (see "Anybody but Trump") away if, & only if, Trump wins the Republican nomination - which is a possibility.

As for this election being about SCOTUS nominees - A Big 10-4, good buddy! And that's (yet another reason) why backing Bernie, the Democrat most likely to win, is so very damn important!

Over & over, I am amazed to find Hillary fans unable to see just how repugnant she is to a huge segment of Americas voting population - as if somehow, their single mindedness will 'carry the country'. Hint, it won't.

Meanwhile, I suspect (& hope) that true Democratic voters (along with independents tired of the dynasties/same old, same old) will support Bernie, if & when, he is nominated.


ETA:

Ahh, no. There is a huge underswell of people (millienials/independents) who know the system has dis-enfranchised them - & a very large many of them do _not_ support Trump.. even more don't support Hillary. They do, however, support Bernie. If you want their support, you have to give them reason. 'Same ole, same ole' is _not_ a valid reason.

enjoy
bobby

I don't share your opinion about Bernie winning. I hope he can, but I fear he'll find himself running against clips of Reagan telling us how evil Socialism is.

genglandoh
01-14-2016, 09:00 PM
What republicans fail to understand is that democrats don't see disagreement over policy as "attacking" the opponent. I'm pretty sure that democrats will happily pull the lever for either Hillary or Bernie.

Sander is saying he wants to change Obamacare.
But Hillary is saying Sander wants to dismantle Obamacare.

Lying about his position is an attack.

ccmanuals
01-14-2016, 09:05 PM
Sander is saying he wants to change Obamacare.
But Hillary is saying Sander wants to dismantle Obamacare.

Lying about his position is an attack.

How did she lie?

There is a small difference between change and dismantle. I don't see this as an attack and BTW I'm a democrat. I wonder why you care about this. I'm pretty sure you won't be voting for a democrat.

genglandoh
01-14-2016, 09:16 PM
How did she lie?

There is a small difference between change and dismantle. I don't see this as an attack and BTW I'm a democrat. I wonder why you care about this. I'm pretty sure you won't be voting for a democrat.

I do not agree with you, I think there is a big difference between change and dismantle.

ccmanuals
01-14-2016, 09:17 PM
I do not agree with you, I think there is a big difference between change and dismantle.

Do you know the difference between damp and wet?

Garret
01-14-2016, 10:06 PM
If she really is a Dem, she'll hold her nose & vote for HRC.

To the died in the wool HRC fans - I hate to tell you this, but there are quite a few solid, have always voted Dem. people who simply cannot stand her - for whatever reason. I'm not saying they won't vote for her, but they'll do what I said in the first line.

paulf
01-14-2016, 10:22 PM
No, they all will toe the party line. Some of us will vote 2 or 3 times for her!

genglandoh
01-14-2016, 10:24 PM
If she really is a Dem, she'll hold her nose & vote for HRC.

To the died in the wool HRC fans - I hate to tell you this, but there are quite a few solid, have always voted Dem. people who simply cannot stand her - for whatever reason. I'm not saying they won't vote for her, but they'll do what I said in the first line.

Well I do not know if she is a died in the wool, vote the party line type person, but I do know she has voted Dem in the past.
When someone in a social setting makes a statement like she did I normally do not ask questions.
It is entirely possible that she was just venting and her anger at Hillary may dissipate over time.

TomF
01-14-2016, 10:24 PM
I couldn't imagine anyone voting for her.Then you have a remarkably poor imagination, considering that she's won elections for a Senate seat.

genglandoh
01-14-2016, 10:29 PM
Then you have a remarkably poor imagination, considering that she's won elections for a Senate seat.

You have a good point.
Hillary in my view ran a good senate campaign.
She campaigned in the republican areas and won some of their votes.

The surprise is how poorly she has done in 2008 and again today.

TomF
01-14-2016, 10:51 PM
...Tom, you're just going to have to get used to $30/barrel oil and a ravaged economy it will bring you Canadians.I may. How is that statement not a non-sequitur in this thread about Clinton drawing votes?

TomF
01-14-2016, 11:00 PM
How is that statement not a non-sequitur in this thread about Clinton drawing votes?When someone says "I couldn't imagine anyone voting for her" it seems kinda apt to point out that she's already won elections. Either your imagination is incredibly poor, or you've a terrible grasp of the obvious.

genglandoh
01-14-2016, 11:00 PM
Her complaining that Trump "bullied" her really showed her weakness. She has been good at laundering money and e-mails but that's not going to win her votes.

Tom, you're just going to have to get used to $30/barrel oil and a ravaged economy it will bring you Canadians.

I agree all of her scandals is hurting her with the voters.

The surprising thing is how poorly she is running her campaign.

Here are a few examples
1. She said that her and Bill were dead broke.
Does not help her with poor voters.

2. She did a bus tour to meet the average voter.
But she has only staged events with her supporters.

3. She did not take questions from reporters for the first months of her campaign.

4. One of her campaign interns accuses her of not paying her.

5. She upset some in the Black community with her “All Lives Matter” statement in a Black Church.

oznabrag
01-15-2016, 12:40 AM
I think the radical candidates being offered by the right will energize democrats to show up in record numbers and vote for either Hillary or Bernie.

Not to mention AGAINST all the down-ticket RFPs who have the misfortune to be campaigning for 'public office' on the 'eff government' ticket.

There comes a point where the majority of people who are inclined to vote, are DIS-inclined to vote for people who hate government.

oznabrag
01-15-2016, 12:43 AM
I'm sorry you didn't realize this is a thread on a future election and not a past one nor is it a thread on my imagination-----good or bad. You might be able to gain a sliver of credibility if you could only stick to the issue and leave personal feelings out of it. We really don't expect much from our northern neighbors but you seem to deliver a lot less.

Really?

You seem to be ill.

Your pretense to insult is very weak, today.

Perhaps you should seek the advice of a Petritist.

leikec
01-15-2016, 02:55 AM
You have a good point.
Hillary in my view ran a good senate campaign.
She campaigned in the republican areas and won some of their votes.

The surprise is how poorly she has done in 2008 and again today.

How do you know she's doing poorly? Which states have held primary elections in 2016? Howard Dean was a world beater and so was Rudy Guiliani...right up until people actually started voting.

Jeff C

TomF
01-15-2016, 06:55 AM
Gfy kmac.

Garret
01-15-2016, 07:13 AM
When someone says "I couldn't imagine anyone voting for her" it seems kinda apt to point out that she's already won elections. Either your imagination is incredibly poor, or you've a terrible grasp of the obvious.

Ignore him - he only comes here to insult, and he does that about as well as he grasps the obvious.

Tom Hunter
01-15-2016, 07:29 AM
TomF made some good points at the top of the thread. Geng, I think your question could be better framed. It's doubtful Hillary will turn off large numbers of democratic voters unless she wins by doing a lot of mudslinging. Hilary is a "normal" candidate, doing the same kind of things the previous "normal" candidates do. Build connections over time, raise a lot of money, and set things up so they are the natural choice for their party. The Bush family has done this twice, and sitting presidents do it very easily. These kinds of candidates don't generate excitement, and on the democratic side if they are not already president, they lose. Mondale fits in this category, so does Gore, and so does Clinton.

I don't think Hillary could increase the vote, her negatives are well known, and because of that I doubt she will decrease it either. I don't think any of the Republicans are likely to move the needle either, except maybe Rubio. Could Bernie Sanders?

Asking which candidates could increase or decrease the vote it really interesting. Note that certain candidates can increase the vote on the other side too.

Tom Hunter
01-15-2016, 07:33 AM
How do you know she's doing poorly? Which states have held primary elections in 2016? Howard Dean was a world beater and so was Rudy Guiliani...right up until people actually started voting.

Jeff C

I'm not replying on Geng's behalf, but I think she is doing poorly because the polling numbers were hugely in her favor months ago, and when Bernie Sanders started running even he said he was doing it to make a point with no expectation of winning. Now he (and many others) are talking about a 70 something socialist from VT having a shot at winning POTUS. That is a sign that Hillary is doing poorly.

TomF
01-15-2016, 07:46 AM
Charming as usual Tom.Why, thank you.

Rigadog
01-15-2016, 09:19 AM
I'll hold my nose and push the button. There's a good chance that the Republican candidate will be a sociopath. Hillary is just a a politician who will do whatever it takes to get elected.

genglandoh
01-15-2016, 09:20 AM
TomF made some good points at the top of the thread. Geng, I think your question could be better framed. It's doubtful Hillary will turn off large numbers of democratic voters unless she wins by doing a lot of mudslinging. Hilary is a "normal" candidate, doing the same kind of things the previous "normal" candidates do. Build connections over time, raise a lot of money, and set things up so they are the natural choice for their party. The Bush family has done this twice, and sitting presidents do it very easily. These kinds of candidates don't generate excitement, and on the democratic side if they are not already president, they lose. Mondale fits in this category, so does Gore, and so does Clinton.

I don't think Hillary could increase the vote, her negatives are well known, and because of that I doubt she will decrease it either. I don't think any of the Republicans are likely to move the needle either, except maybe Rubio. Could Bernie Sanders?

Asking which candidates could increase or decrease the vote it really interesting. Note that certain candidates can increase the vote on the other side too.

In general I agree with you post.

I do think it depends mostly on how Hillary treats Sanders.
In general if you have a candidate with enthusiastic supporters (Sanders) and another candidate (Hillary) gets nominated by attacking him, the enthusiastic supporters will drop out and not vote in the general election.

So if Hillary goes negative against Sanders she risks losing the General Election.

Norman Bernstein
01-15-2016, 09:26 AM
In general if you have a candidate with enthusiastic supporters (Sanders) and another candidate (Hillary) gets nominated by attacking him, the enthusiastic supporters will drop out and not vote in the general election.

So if Hillary goes negative against Sanders she risks losing the General Election.

This is speculation without substance. It presumes that the disappointed 'enthusiastic supporters' of Sanders would rather see Trump as President, than see Hillary elected.

I don't see ANY basis for this... it's just wild partisan speculation. It requires a complete suspension of disbelief, to think that Sanders supporters see Hillary as a worse alternative to Trump.

Norman Bernstein
01-15-2016, 09:27 AM
Hillary is just a a politician who will do whatever it takes to get elected.

And this makes her different from the rest, how, exactly?

TomF
01-15-2016, 09:29 AM
.... So if Hillary goes negative against Sanders she risks losing the General Election.Why? Does Trump risk losing the General Election if he goes negative against Cruz?

BTW, please don't misconstrue this as an argument in favour of negative campaigning - which I personally hate.

Tom Montgomery
01-15-2016, 09:52 AM
This Democrat will vote for the party nominee in the general election regardless.

#1 .The goal is to do my part to see that a responsible adult is in the White House rather than any of the Republican candidates.
#2. I consider voting to be a civic DUTY. I consider the failure to vote for any reason other than physical illness or incapacitation to be the height of irresponsiblity.

genglandoh
01-15-2016, 09:58 AM
Why? Does Trump risk losing the General Election if he goes negative against Cruz?

BTW, please don't misconstrue this as an argument in favour of negative campaigning - which I personally hate.

Sorry if I did not explain it correctly.
It is about attacking a candidate who has enthusiastic supporters.
On the Rep side Trump is the one with enthusiastic supporters.
So if Cruz goes negative against Trump then Cruz could lose some Trump supporters in the General.

Tom Montgomery
01-15-2016, 10:01 AM
Any enthusiastic supporter of Bernie Sanders so despises the Republican candidates that he will vote for the Democratic candidate in the general election regardless of who it is and regardless of how nasty the primary campaign.

Can the same be said of enthusiastic Bush, Kasich, Paul, Fiorina, and Christie supporters if The Donald is on the general election ballot?

Democrats think differently than Republicans. So it would not surprise me if you simply cannot understand them.

Norman Bernstein
01-15-2016, 10:06 AM
On the Rep side Trump is the one with enthusiastic supporters.


Cruz doesn't have enthusiastic supporters?
Trump doesn't piss off anyone who votes Republican?

TomF
01-15-2016, 10:16 AM
Hillary had enthusiastic supporters in 2008, leading some to ask similar questions about whether her followers would vote for Obama or stay home. Most voted for Obama, because they felt he was infinitely superior to McCain and casting a Dem vote was crucial.

It would be very surprising if that pattern didn't repeat.

George Jung
01-15-2016, 10:30 AM
geng, you're an interesting case study - always looking for that rationalization in support of your pre-determined 'solution'.

Rigadog
01-15-2016, 11:08 AM
And this makes her different from the rest, how, exactly?

Not very, but I support her views even when the shift to a greater.

It's a pretty stark choice: the Corporate Socialists or The Nationalist Sociopaths. Choose wisely...

Chris Coose
01-15-2016, 01:28 PM
geng, you're an interesting case study - always looking for that rationalization in support of your pre-determined 'solution'.

And it baffles me that people spend time rationalizing his queries.

Durnik
01-15-2016, 02:53 PM
^ he has queries? Who'd-a-thunk!


..but I fear he'll find himself running against clips of Reagan telling us how evil Socialism is.

Reagan's been gone going on 28 years now - there's legions of voters who have no memory of him, & legions of 'old white guys' who, like Reagan, have 'moved on'. What can I say - don't let fear be your greatest guide.


Ignore him - he only comes here to insult, and he does that about as well as he grasps the obvious.

Well Said! ;-)


It requires a complete suspension of disbelief, to think that Sanders supporters see Hillary as a worse alternative to Trump.

no, but it does require realizing that ones view of the world is not shared by all.




Hillary is just a a politician who will do whatever it takes to get elected.

And this makes her different from the rest, how, exactly?

Demonstrating once again how little some perceive outside their 'safe spaces'.. Doubter, meet Bernie (https://www.google.com/search?q=bernie+for+president).

enjoy
bobby

genglandoh
01-15-2016, 06:54 PM
Hillary’s attach on Sanders has caused many Sanders supporters to increase their donations.
This supports my point but does not prove it.
We will have to wait and see what happens in Nov.

Clinton’s attacks produce windfall of campaign cash for Sanders
Sanders’s underdog campaign said it is seeing a surge of contributions as a direct result of the new attention it is getting from the Democratic front-runner, with money coming in at a clip nearly four times the average daily rate reported in the last quarter of 2015.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-attacks-produce-windfall-of-campaign-cash-for-sanders/2016/01/13/d95b3d38-ba27-11e5-99f3-184bc379b12d_story.html

Tom Montgomery
01-15-2016, 07:34 PM
Hillary’s attach [sic] on Sanders has caused many Sanders supporters to increase their donations.Yes.


This supports my point but does not prove it.Correct if your point was that Barnie Sanders has enthusiastic supporters. But we all knew that. I suspect you think it supports some other conclusion. If so you are mistaken.


We will have to wait and see what happens in Nov.No kidding? :rolleyes:

Tom Hunter
01-16-2016, 10:19 AM
Geng said: In general if you have a candidate with enthusiastic supporters (Sanders) and another candidate (Hillary) gets nominated by attacking him, the enthusiastic supporters will drop out and not vote in the general election.

So if Hillary goes negative against Sanders she risks losing the General Election.


This is speculation without substance. It presumes that the disappointed 'enthusiastic supporters' of Sanders would rather see Trump as President, than see Hillary elected.

I don't see ANY basis for this... it's just wild partisan speculation. It requires a complete suspension of disbelief, to think that Sanders supporters see Hillary as a worse alternative to Trump.


Geng's fundamentals are correct. In fact, this study http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1193&context=respublica says that when neither candidate goes negative voter turnout goes up, and when Republicans go negative turnout goes up. If Hillary goes negative against Bernie it's very likely she will damage her own parties turnout, and that could contribute to her losing the general election. The fact that you don't see any basis for Geng's statement means you have not looked very hard, I found it in about 5 minutes.

Tom Hunter
01-16-2016, 10:29 AM
As I read posts from other people named Tom (somehow all the posts from people named Tom seem smart) I'll point out that negative adds can be designed to suppress an opponents turnout. If you suppress democratic turnout in the primary that can continue to effect the election 6 weeks later. Obama and Clinton did not engage in a lot of that kind of advertising in their campaigns. More importantly Obama was a historic candidate who drove up voter participation.

The Clinton's do have a strategic problem to solve, if Bernie's voters feel they were treated unfairly they are much more likely to stay home. Going negative can be an attractive strategy, but it creates that risk. On the other hand if she does not reduce the enthusiasm for Bernie she might lose.

Trump an Cruz going after each other is a bit different, partly because of the party bias identified in the study I just posted, and partly because everyone knows they are mean.

Sky Blue
01-16-2016, 10:33 AM
Even more? Yeah, right. More young people don't like Hillary than don't like Trump? Sorry, but that one rides off into the sunset on a sparkly pink unicorn.

Maybe so, but millenials prefer Bernie 46% to 31% according to recent polling and so if Hillary does not energize these voters, history suggests they may sit out.

Ian McColgin
01-16-2016, 11:54 AM
It's a right-wing fantasy based on projecting their own anti-female and anti-Clinton hysteria. No matter who the Republican nominee is, Democrats will mobilize to block and many rational Republicans will sit out this one if they cannot bear to vote Democrat. Ms Clinton really embodies the best of Eisenhower Republican values and honest Republicans know and respect that.

Paul Pless
01-16-2016, 11:57 AM
Ms Clinton really embodies the best of Eisenhower Republican values and honest Republicans know and respect that.bull****

Durnik
01-16-2016, 12:07 PM
Democrats will mobilize to block...

Depends, there are Dedicated Democrats.. & Possible Democrats. Bernie has both, Hillary, not so much the latter. Meaning both those who like Bernie's ideas, & those who feel "Must. Be. A. Democrat.", should really be backing Bernie. I happen to be both!

IMHO

enjoy
bobby

George Jung
01-16-2016, 12:08 PM
Hehe.... Ian is good, ain't he?

Ian McColgin
01-16-2016, 12:22 PM
Just repeating what Ms Clinton pointed out decades ago when she failed as health care unpaid czarina. Gotta remember, I'm a liberal so I know the Clintons are not.

TomF
01-16-2016, 04:06 PM
Maybe so, but millenials prefer Bernie 46% to 31% according to recent polling and so if Hillary does not energize these voters, history suggests they may sit out.It depends who they're facing if they sit out the election, and the Reps win.

In Canada's election last Fall we saw quite an uptick in young voter participation. Most of it went to Trudeau, but wasn't motivated primarily by him. Polling showed that their participation was driven by wanting to ensure his opponent didn't win.

genglandoh
03-07-2016, 12:12 PM
Some supporting material.

Don’t Assume Bernie Sanders Supporters Will Back Hillary Clinton If She’s The Nominee
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-supporters-wont-vote-hillary_us_56d7571ae4b0871f60edb9fe

Norman Bernstein
03-07-2016, 12:25 PM
I've never seen so much navel-gazing!

The accuracy and prediction capability of national polls is already questionable enough.....

...arguing about the notion of voters staying home if so-and-so is the nominee is about two orders of magnitude LESS reliable, as an indicator.

switters
03-07-2016, 12:45 PM
When someone says "I couldn't imagine anyone voting for her" it seems kinda apt to point out that she's already won elections. Either your imagination is incredibly poor, or you've a terrible grasp of the obvious.

She has only won one election, yet this is the second time you have used the plural.

ccmanuals
03-07-2016, 12:50 PM
She has only won one election, yet this is the second time you have used the plural.

Actually 2. She was elected to the Senate in 2000 and again in 2006.

S.V. Airlie
03-07-2016, 12:59 PM
IF there is a republican on the ballot, I'll vote any Dem regardless as to who it is this year!

switters
03-07-2016, 01:20 PM
Actually 2. She was elected to the Senate in 2000 and again in 2006.

I stand corrected, she won two but did not serve all of the second.

genglandoh
03-07-2016, 04:20 PM
Bill Clinton decided to attack Sanders supporters directly.
Not a smart move if you want then to vote for Hillary in the General.

Bill Clinton rips Sanders backers' 'sexist,' 'profane' attacks
Bill Clinton lashed out at "sexist" and "profane" attacks on Hillary Clinton and her supporters by proponents of Bernie Sanders, and accused them of harassing those who don't back the Vermont senator's campaign or disagree with his policies.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/08/politics/bill-clinton-sanders-supporters-attacks/

hokiefan
03-07-2016, 04:24 PM
Bill Clinton decided to attack Sanders supporters directly.
Not a smart move if you want then to vote for Hillary in the General.

Bill Clinton rips Sanders backers' 'sexist,' 'profane' attacks
Bill Clinton lashed out at "sexist" and "profane" attacks on Hillary Clinton and her supporters by proponents of Bernie Sanders, and accused them of harassing those who don't back the Vermont senator's campaign or disagree with his policies.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/08/politics/bill-clinton-sanders-supporters-attacks/

Some of Bernie's supporters have been sexist and profane in their jabs at Hillary. Bernie has attacked them just like Bill did.

KMacDonald
03-07-2016, 10:02 PM
Yes!

genglandoh
03-16-2016, 12:40 PM
Interesting

33 Percent of Bernie Sanders Supporters Will Not Vote for Hillary Clinton. Here's Why
Most importantly, Democrats should remember that 33% of Bernie Sanders voters will refuse to vote for Clinton in November, if she becomes nominee.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/33-percent-of-bernie-sanders-not-vote-hillary_b_9475626.html

Norman Bernstein
03-16-2016, 12:50 PM
Most importantly, Democrats should remember that 33% of Bernie Sanders voters will refuse to vote for Clinton in November, if she becomes nominee.

Not quite right.... 33% of Democrats SAY they will not vote for Clinton, in this particular poll. Saying and doing are two different things.

In this election cycle, polling accuracy has gotten really bad... and the WORST kind of polling is the kind you reference, namely, the kind that presumes voting based on what is going on, right now. Whether a significant number of Democrats will simply not vote, if Hillary is the nominee, is highly doubtful.

If this were true, you'd see it reflected in the match-up polls.... but you don't. The match-up polls still show Clinton OR Sanders winning over Trump or Cruz in the general election.

Garret
03-16-2016, 01:22 PM
Interesting

33 Percent of Bernie Sanders Supporters Will Not Vote for Hillary Clinton. Here's Why
Most importantly, Democrats should remember that 33% of Bernie Sanders voters will refuse to vote for Clinton in November, if she becomes nominee.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/33-percent-of-bernie-sanders-not-vote-hillary_b_9475626.html

I think you'll find that when actually presented with a choice between Clinton & Trump or Cruz, Dems & left leaning independents will hold their noses & vote for Clinton as a "There's no way I can let those 2 jokers into the White House" vote.

genglandoh
03-24-2016, 03:34 PM
Just another reason for Sanders supporters not to vote for Hillary in the fall.

Sanders: Arizonans waiting 5 hours to vote is 'a disgrace'
Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders said Wednesday that it "is a disgrace" that some Arizona voters waited in line for five hours to vote because of too few polling stations.
"In the United States of America, democracy is the foundation of our way of life," the Democratic presidential hopeful said. "And what happened in Arizona is a disgrace. I hope that every state in this country learns from that and learns how to put together a proper election where people can come in and vote in a timely manner and go back to work."
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/arizona-voting-suppression/

LeeG
03-24-2016, 03:56 PM
Just another reason for Sanders supporters not to vote for Hillary in the fall.

Sanders: Arizonans waiting 5 hours to vote is 'a disgrace'
Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders said Wednesday that it "is a disgrace" that some Arizona voters waited in line for five hours to vote because of too few polling stations.
"In the United States of America, democracy is the foundation of our way of life," the Democratic presidential hopeful said. "And what happened in Arizona is a disgrace. I hope that every state in this country learns from that and learns how to put together a proper election where people can come in and vote in a timely manner and go back to work."
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/arizona-voting-suppression/

Explain that

Garret
03-24-2016, 04:23 PM
Explain that

He can't - has nothing to do with Hilary & everything to do with Reps in power.

ccmanuals
03-24-2016, 04:55 PM
Just another reason for Sanders supporters not to vote for Hillary in the fall.

Sanders: Arizonans waiting 5 hours to vote is 'a disgrace'
Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders said Wednesday that it "is a disgrace" that some Arizona voters waited in line for five hours to vote because of too few polling stations.
"In the United States of America, democracy is the foundation of our way of life," the Democratic presidential hopeful said. "And what happened in Arizona is a disgrace. I hope that every state in this country learns from that and learns how to put together a proper election where people can come in and vote in a timely manner and go back to work."
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/arizona-voting-suppression/

As if any of that had anything to do with Hillary. Appears to me that Sanders was criticizing Arizona republicans and not Hillary. Do you think Bernie is so stupid as to blame someone else.

genglandoh
03-27-2016, 10:08 AM
Some more supporting material.

The Bernie Sanders voters who would choose Trump over Clinton
This week the Guardian sought out Sanders fans who are contemplating switching their allegiance to Trump if Hillary Clinton secures the Democratic nomination.
Almost 700 people replied to the call-out, and some 500 of them said they were thinking the unthinkable: a Sanders-Trump switch.
They explained their unconventional position by expressing a variety of passionately held views on their shared commitment for protecting workers and against new wars, on their zeal for an alternative to the establishment, and on their desire to support anyone but Hillary Clinton.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/13/bernie-sanders-supporters-consider-donald-trump-no-hillary-clinton

Some Sanders supporters say it’s ‘Bernie or Bust’ and they will never vote for Hillary Clinton
Despite these glimmers of reconciliation with his rival, Sanders may have unleashed a rebellion that will be beyond his power to control when it comes time to unify the party. Some “Bernie or Bust” stalwarts say they won’t back Clinton even if Sanders joins her ticket.
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/some-sanders-supporters-say-its-bernie-or-bust-155205844.html

genglandoh
03-27-2016, 10:12 AM
Not quite right.... 33% of Democrats SAY they will not vote for Clinton, in this particular poll. Saying and doing are two different things.

In this election cycle, polling accuracy has gotten really bad... and the WORST kind of polling is the kind you reference, namely, the kind that presumes voting based on what is going on, right now. Whether a significant number of Democrats will simply not vote, if Hillary is the nominee, is highly doubtful.

If this were true, you'd see it reflected in the match-up polls.... but you don't. The match-up polls still show Clinton OR Sanders winning over Trump or Cruz in the general election.

First you say you can not trust the polls then you use polls to try to support your opinion.
Very funny.

genglandoh
03-30-2016, 06:56 AM
Well it seems that ijb5 agrees with me that some Sanders supporters will not vote for Hillary in the General.
See the thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Delegate-count (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?204597-Delegate-count)


I don't think I insulted you at all.

What I'm trying to do is provide you with a bit of scale and perspective, so you don't get all worked up about something that is really quite mundane.

In every election, there will be a few voters who will not vote for any other than their first choice candidate, or who will vote cross-party, rather than for a second-choice candidate of their own party.

This happens, to greater or lesser degree in every election.

The trick, (and the part you need to work on), is keeping it in perspective and understanding the scale.

So, while I certainly agree with you that there will be some "Bernie Bros" who won't vote for Hillary, the point where we differ is where you start hyperventilating about it and get so excited that you seem to think it's some great trend or movement that portends doom or downfall.

I believe, that when put in proper scale, you would find that the effect is actually insignificant. First, a lot of the Bernie supporters seem to be marginally attached voters. They are of the demographic least likely to actually vote, regardless of their stated preference. Therefore the loss of their votes is less significant, because they were less likely to vote at all. There are probably a comparable number of Hillary supporters who wouldn't vote for Bernie. So it's kinda a toss-up.

At this time, there appears to be no reason to think that this effect is any more or less pronounced than it has been in previous elections. In 2008, Obama won a decent number of Hillary supporters, after defeating her in the primary. (Despite the predictions of many on the right). I'm sure there were some who withheld, but it doesn't seem to have been a significant number. The same could be said for just about every election ever.

So, in that regard, this primary between Hillary and Bernie is unremarkable.

The one thing that is truly remarkable about this election cycle, is that in one of the two major parties, there is a group of prominent and influential members who are actively opposing their party's primary leader. I'm not talking about assorted Bernie Bros getting all worked up on college campuses. I'm talking about elected representatives, major party players, influential party leaders and at least one recent nominee. And they're not just saying they have a dis-preference for Trump. They're talking about actively undermining him, supporting Hillary, and perhaps even wrecking the party to avoid him.

That, I think, is much more noteworthy. And it seems like you're failing to notice it.

CPF
03-30-2016, 09:28 AM
Well it seems that ijb5 agrees with me that some Sanders supporters will not vote for Hillary in the General.
See the thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Delegate-count (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?204597-Delegate-count)

THAT'S what you take away from that post by ljb5: that "some Sanders supporters will not vote for Hillary in the general?" You know, when you find yourself working too hard to make a point, you really should reexamine the point you're trying to make, rather than just doubling down blindly.

Look, if Hillary is the nominee, Bernie will immediately support her 1000%, and will call on the loyalty of his supporters to support her as well. How could he not? He's worked very hard to shift her program to the left, and he's succeeded. He's successfully shown the world -- and Hillary, who is no fool, whatever you think of her -- that economic policies that address the evils of income inequality and big money in politics are immensely popular. Is he going to throw all that effort away? At the point where she becomes the nominee, all his effort is invested in her platform and the policies she will pursue once elected. Some Bernie Bros will sit out, and some will vote for Mickey Mouse, but uncle Bernie will convince the vast majority to support the continuation of their work.

Best,
Chris

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2016, 09:38 AM
He can't - has nothing to do with Hilary & everything to do with Reps in power.Yup, Obama set up a committee to determine how to correct the issues surrounding voting such as long lines. The committee submitted their findings, the states, which pay for them basically said, we can't and won't do that, too expensive! In fact, the states cut back on voting locations and staffing to
SAVE money. Arizona is run by Republicans, figure it out for yourself why people waited in line for 5 hours.

Durnik
03-30-2016, 10:13 PM
Last edited by genglandoh; 03-30-2016 at 07:10 AM. Reason: added thread link



http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by ljb5 http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4844552#post4844552)
I don't think I insulted you at all.

What I'm trying to do is provide you with a bit of scale and perspective, so you don't get all worked up about something that is really quite mundane.


just an fyi, but the blue box with the white double right arrows following ljb5 is a link - to the quoted post.

& it'd likely be worth your time to ponder on what Chris said..

just sayin'

bobby

genglandoh
04-06-2016, 06:48 PM
Another supporting poll.


Poll: 1 in 4 Bernie Sanders supporters would not vote for Hillary Clinton
WASHINGTON, April 6 (UPI) -- A new poll released Wednesday finds one of every four supporters of Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders would not vote for his opponent, Hillary Clinton, in the general election if she became the party's nominee.
The poll underscores what has become an increasingly thorny problem for Clinton, the front-runner: How to dispatch Sanders without turning off his passionate supporters.
According to a McClatchy-Marist poll, 25 percent of Democrats or Democratic-leaning independents who support Sanders say they would not vote for Clinton if she wins the nomination.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/04/06/Poll-1-in-4-Bernie-Sanders-supporters-would-not-vote-for-Hillary-Clinton/5631459970755/

genglandoh
04-10-2016, 11:52 AM
Sanders wins Wyoming with a double digit lead (55.7% to 44.3%)
But the delegate are evenly split at 7 to 7.
If you include the super delegates Clinton wins with 11 to 7 delegates.

Just one more reason to make the Sanders Supports think the game is rigged.

Bernie Sanders Will Win Wyoming Democratic Caucuses, NBC News Projects
A total of 14 pledged delegates were up for grabs in the state, and Sanders and Clinton will split those delegates at 7 each, according to estimates based on the state convention delegates elected at Saturday's county convention.
The delegates will be finally allocated and named at the Wyoming state convention on May 28.
Clinton currently has the support of 4 super delegates from Wyoming. That gives her a total of 11 delegates from Wyoming to 7 for Sanders.
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/wyoming-caucuses-sanders-hopes-cut-clinton-s-delegate-lead-n553281

genglandoh
04-11-2016, 06:16 PM
This cartoon reminded me of some who posted on this thread.

http://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/12b57a8/2147483647/thumbnail/766x511%3E/format/png/quality/85/?url=%2Fcmsmedia%2Fa5%2F52%2Fadb5b5d541e79ffdf409c 3e377ad%2F20151022edloc-a.tif

ccmanuals
04-11-2016, 06:19 PM
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-0/s552x414/12994354_964028806978941_6571542553214965145_n.jpg ?oh=704179172566472cdda24645f2a00fce&oe=57866B4F

Durnik
04-11-2016, 08:25 PM
^ :d


Poll: 1 in 4 Bernie Sanders supporters would not vote for Hillary Clinton

Thread title is 'some Dems will not vote'. So, you do know not all Sanders supporters are Dems.

just sayin'..

genglandoh
04-11-2016, 08:36 PM
^ :d
Thread title is 'some Dems will not vote'. So, you do know not all Sanders supporters are Dems.
just sayin'..

You are right not all Sanders supporters are Dems, some are Independents and even some are Republicans.

Garret
04-11-2016, 08:39 PM
You are right not all Sanders supporters are Dems, some are Independents and even some are Republicans.

I think you might be surprised how many are Republicans.

Durnik
04-11-2016, 08:45 PM
& while some Republican ones may vote for Hillary, some Independents have already said they won't.

bizarre world we're living in!

Garret
04-11-2016, 08:47 PM
Has Cruz asked Polgara to ditch you & be his wife yet?

genglandoh
04-11-2016, 08:52 PM
I think you might be surprised how many are Republicans.

This year is very strange many from both parties are looking to switch.

Ohio's 'dirty little secret': blue-collar Democrats for Trump
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-ohio-insight-idUSKCN0WC19Q

Why are voters changing their party affiliation this election cycle?
Since the beginning of the year, nearing 50,000 registered Democrats in Pennsylvania have switched to the Republican Party and as many as 20,000 Democrats in Massachusetts have made the same move in their state.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-are-people-changing-their-party-affiliation-this-election-cycle/

Poll: Nearly 20 Percent of Democrats Would Vote for Trump Over Hillary
Nearly 20 percent of Democrats would leave the party and vote for Republican Donald Trump in a match-up against Hillary Clinton, according to a new poll.
The survey of 916 likely voters by the Mercury Analytics research firm in Washington found that only 14 percent of Republicans would cross party lines and vote for Clinton.|
www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/democrats-vote-for-trump/2016/01/09/id/708859/#ixzz45Za6r965 (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/democrats-vote-for-trump/2016/01/09/id/708859/#ixzz45Za6r965)

genglandoh
04-20-2016, 08:37 AM
Another reason for Sanders supporters to be upset with the process.

Sanders campaign, New York officials cry foul after New York voters report issues
Bernie Sanders' campaign on Tuesday called reports of voting irregularities in New York state "a disgrace" as local officials rushed to condemn the city Board of Elections for stripping more than 125,000 Democratic voters from the rolls.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/19/politics/new-york-primary-voter-problem-polls-sanders-de-blasio/index.html

skuthorp
04-20-2016, 08:42 AM
I can see some supporters of both parties refusing to vote for the candidates as presented.

genglandoh
04-20-2016, 09:16 AM
I can see some supporters of both parties refusing to vote for the candidates as presented.

On the Dem side I think many Sanders supporters will not vote for Hillary in 2016.
On the Rep side I think Cruz supporters will vote for Trump in 2016.
I do think some people who earn a living working for the Rep party will not vote for Trump.

genglandoh
04-25-2016, 09:03 PM
Interesting article written by Robert Reich.

Title: The Endgame of 2016′s Anti-Establishment Politics
If Hillary Clinton is perceived to have won the Democratic primary because of insider “superdelegates” and contests closed to independents, it may confirm for hardcore Bernie supporters the systemic political corruption Sanders has been railing against.
http://robertreich.org/post/143348763760

Chip-skiff
04-25-2016, 09:12 PM
How does that compare to the absolute corruption and disarray on the Republican side?

genglandoh
04-25-2016, 09:16 PM
How does that compare to the absolute corruption and disarray on the Republican side?

read the thread.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?204456-Do-you-think-some-Reps-will-not-vote-in-2016-if-Trump-is-not-on-the-ballot&highlight=

genglandoh
04-26-2016, 09:25 AM
Not a smart move by the Hillary campaign.

Title: Why Were Bernie Sanders Groups Removed From Facebook?
Numerous popular Bernie Sanders Facebook groups and pages were removed from the social media giant on Monday, causing hundreds of thousands of members to wonder exactly what was happening. The removals all began happening around the same time, with people wondering if the removals might originate from a PAC that supports a rival campaign or if it was just the work of unrelated trolls. What happened?
Link: http://heavy.com/news/2016/04/bernie-sanders-facebook-groups-removed-banned-deleted-why-hillary-clinton-attack-censorship-which/

Title: Hillary Clinton Trolls Shut Down Pro-Bernie Sanders Facebook Groups
The groups were targeted by online trolls, who posted pornographic images and reported the groups to Facebook admins. Some legitimate Bernie supporters even reported seeing images containing pedophilia, according to reporting from Heavy.com.
Link: http://usuncut.com/politics/bernie-facebook-groups-trolled/

Garret
04-26-2016, 09:35 AM
None of the stories said it was the Clinton campaign that did it - just individuals. Accusing Clinton's campaign is disingenuous at best.

genglandoh
04-26-2016, 09:45 AM
Check out the twitter response at berniefacebookpurge

https://twitter.com/search?q=berniefacebookpurge&ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Ese arch

Garret
04-26-2016, 09:54 AM
And? A bunch of Bernie supporters suspect the Clinton campaign. Doesn't mean they did it.

Keith Wilson
04-26-2016, 09:56 AM
Genglandoh, you can keep hoping, but don't bet more than you can afford to lose. Once the Democratic nominee is chosen, pretty much everyone on the left will get behind whoever it is, Mr. Sanders or Ms. Clinton. The Radical Republicans will make damned sure of that. Seriously, can you imagine Bernie Sanders supporters actually voting for Donald Trump out if pique? Ted Cruz? Or even staying home and allowing one of the far-right guys to get elected? If you can, I think you should back off on the hallucinogens a bit. Something similar happened in 2008, when the divisions within the Democrats were even greater than they are now; there were a lot of Clinton supporters who were very mad at Obama, and by November they all pretty much came around.

The trainwreck on the right, now, that's another order of magnitude altogether.

Sky Blue
04-26-2016, 10:24 AM
can you imagine Bernie Sanders supporters actually voting for Donald Trump

I sure can, especially in Rust Belt states. I believe Mr. Trump's strategy is to run to the Left of Mrs. Clinton on a number of issues, in a specific bid to win Sanders supporters. He would only need a small slice of Bernie's constituency to make real trouble for Mrs. Clinton in battleground states.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/13/bernie-sanders-supporters-consider-donald-trump-no-hillary-clinton

genglandoh
04-26-2016, 10:35 AM
None of the stories said it was the Clinton campaign that did it - just individuals. Accusing Clinton's campaign is disingenuous at best.

Just read her email.:)

John Smith
04-26-2016, 10:48 AM
Interesting article written by Robert Reich.

Title: The Endgame of 2016′s Anti-Establishment Politics
If Hillary Clinton is perceived to have won the Democratic primary because of insider “superdelegates” and contests closed to independents, it may confirm for hardcore Bernie supporters the systemic political corruption Sanders has been railing against.
http://robertreich.org/post/143348763760

Can anyone think of any organization where non members get to vote? Did these rules change this election?

John Smith
04-26-2016, 10:55 AM
Let us assume it is Hillary against Trump.

You can vote for one who wishes to address Climate change or one who thinks it's a hoax.

You can vote for one who wants minimum wage to go up or one who thinks it's too high now.

You can vote for one who supports unions or one who does not.

You can vote for one who wants to expand healthcare to more people or one who does not.


There are really very few differences in the basic goals Clinton and Sanders have. There's a great deal of difference between either of them and whomever the Republicans nominate.

You can have Hillary appointed justices or you can have Trump appointing, or nominating, justices.

One will appoint justices who will overturn Citizens united, and one will nominate justices who will not.

You can vote for one who will support women's rights to abortions and equal pay, or vote for one who won't do either.

You can vote for one who wants to restore voting rights or one who does not.

It would be insanity for a Bernie supporter to not vote for Hillary.

Then there's this. People working for the federal government or working form businesses who contract with the federal government got an increase in their minimum wage because of an Executive order signed by Obama. I suspect a lot of Republicans are included there. If they don't vote for Hillary, they'd be voting themselves a pay cut.

switters
04-26-2016, 11:38 AM
http://www.salon.com/2016/04/25/jill_stein_pens_open_letter_to_bernie_sanders_gree n_party_presidential_candidate_invites_sanders_to_ cooperate_on_political_revolution/

Jill Stein,

Keith Wilson
04-26-2016, 11:51 AM
I can think of few things more likely to put Trump or Cruz in the White House than a serious Sanders/Stein Green party run. We'd get a 'revolution' all right, but not the kind they wanted. Fortunately, Mr Sanders has been very clear he won't do that.

Garret
04-26-2016, 11:56 AM
I can think of few things more likely to put Trump or Cruz in the White House than a serious Sanders/Stein Green party run. We'd get a 'revolution' all right, but not the kind they wanted. Fortunately, Mr Sanders has been very clear he won't do that.

In local interviews here in VT, he has gone so far as to say "I will not be a Nader" & went on to describe just how much damage Nader did to our country.

genglandoh
05-15-2016, 07:35 PM
The longer Sanders stays in the race the harder it will be for Sanders supporters to switch to Hillary in the fall.

Title: Nevada Democratic Convention becomes 'unruly and unpredictable' amid rules disputes over delegates
The Nevada State Democratic Convention on Saturday night devolved into an “unruly and unpredictable” environment following several disputes over rules governing delegates for Democratic presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, leading to law enforcement officials being called to keep the peace.
Link: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/15/nevada-democratic-convention-becomes-unruly-and-unpredictable-amid-rules-disputes-over-delegates.html

Keith Wilson
05-15-2016, 08:36 PM
The longer Sanders stays in the race the harder it will be for Sanders supporters to switch to Hillary in the fall.Nah. Given the alternatives, the vast majority of them will have no problem at all pulling the lever for Ms. Clinton.

Nicholas Carey
05-15-2016, 11:15 PM
Given the negatives that both Trump and Clinton draw, my bet is that a LOT of centrists will stay home out of disgust or write in a 3rd party candidate.

And that throws the election to the nutter, since the right-wing whack jobs are way more populous and devoted than the left wing whack jobs.

Sky Blue
05-15-2016, 11:35 PM
can you imagine Sanders' people voting for Trump?

I can see white, male, Rust Belt union types voting for Trump instead of either Sanders or Clinton. Some of these voters will be available to Trump in key states.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/13/donald-trump-bill-clinton-appalachia-democrats-voters

Sky Blue
05-16-2016, 08:49 AM
Here is a piece that details exit polling showing that 44% of Sanders supporters will be voting for Trump if Mrs. Clinton is the nominee.

Who knew that nearly half of Sanders' supporters were hateful, racist bigots?:o

http://www.salon.com/2016/05/13/bernie_supporters_wont_vote_hillary_a_chilling_new _development_in_the_clinton_campaign_partner/

Keith Wilson
05-16-2016, 08:53 AM
Here is a piece that details exit polling showing that 44% of Sanders supporters will be voting for Trump if Mrs. Clinton is the nominee?In West Virginia.

genglandoh
05-16-2016, 07:10 PM
Here are 2 Sanders supporters who will not be voting for Hillary.

Title: ‘The Wire’ actor Wendell Pierce charged with battery, reportedly for attacking Sanders supporter
Wendell Pierce, the 52-year-old actor best known for playing Detective William “Bunk” Moreland on HBO’s “The Wire,” was arrested Saturday morning in Atlanta. Police have confirmed that Pierce was charged with simple battery and released that same day on a $1,000 bond, the Associated Press reported.
Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/16/wendell-pierce-actor-and-social-activist-arrested-for-allegedly-attacking-bernie-sanders-supporter/

oznabrag
05-16-2016, 07:12 PM
Compared to the number of RFPs who will vote for Hillary rather than Mr. Loathesome?

genglandoh
05-16-2016, 07:28 PM
In West Virginia.

You are correct.
I suspect the 44% in West Virginia where Coal was a major employer is the high water mark.
Other polls have the number at about 30%
Lets assume that the polls are wrong by 50% and only 15% of Bernie supporters do not vote for Hillary.
Bernie has about 45% support so 15*.45 is 6% of the vote.
Obama won the 2012 election by only 3.9% (51.1 to 47.2)
So not good news for Hillary.

Title: 33 Percent of Bernie Sanders Supporters Will Not Vote for Hillary Clinton. Here's Why
Most importantly, Democrats should remember that 33% of Bernie Sanders voters will refuse to vote for Clinton in November, if she becomes nominee.
Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-go...b_9475626.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/33-percent-of-bernie-sanders-not-vote-hillary_b_9475626.html)

genglandoh
05-23-2016, 12:18 PM
You are correct.
I suspect the 44% in West Virginia where Coal was a major employer is the high water mark.
Other polls have the number at about 30%
Lets assume that the polls are wrong by 50% and only 15% of Bernie supporters do not vote for Hillary.
Bernie has about 45% support so 15*.45 is 6% of the vote.
Obama won the 2012 election by only 3.9% (51.1 to 47.2)
So not good news for Hillary.

Title: 33 Percent of Bernie Sanders Supporters Will Not Vote for Hillary Clinton. Here's Why
Most importantly, Democrats should remember that 33% of Bernie Sanders voters will refuse to vote for Clinton in November, if she becomes nominee.
Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-go...b_9475626.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/33-percent-of-bernie-sanders-not-vote-hillary_b_9475626.html)

My 6% Conservative estimate for Sanders Supports who will not vote for Hillary looks a little low.

The RCP average has Trump ahead of Clinton by +0.2%
They also have Sanders ahead or Trump by 10.8%

So it looks like about 11% of people will vote for Sanders but will not vote for Clinton.

S.V. Airlie
05-23-2016, 12:24 PM
Polls six weeks minus a little, Whoopie!

When some of the first starts coming out about the shyster Trumpeter, those polls will be a lot different. Of course, his puppets wouldn't care if he had a sexual affair with his daughter, they'd still vote for him

genglandoh
06-23-2016, 09:54 AM
Another poll and not good news for Hillary

Title: Nearly Half of Sanders Supporters Won't Support Clinton
In the two weeks since Hillary Clinton wrapped up the Democratic presidential primary, runner-up Bernie Sanders has promised to work hard to defeat Donald Trump — but he’s given no sign he’ll soon embrace Clinton, his party’s presumptive nominee. Neither have many of Sanders’s supporters. A June 14th Bloomberg Politics national poll of likely voters in November’s election found that barely half of those who favored Sanders — 55 percent — plan to vote for Clinton. Instead, 22 percent say they’ll vote for Trump, while 18 percent favor Libertarian Gary Johnson. “I’m a registered Democrat, but I cannot bring myself to vote for another establishment politician like Hillary,” says Laura Armes, a 43-year-old homemaker from Beeville, Texas, who participated in the Bloomberg poll and plans to vote for Trump. “I don’t agree with a lot of what Trump says. But he won’t owe anybody. What you see is what you get.”
Link: http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-22/nearly-half-of-sanders-supporters-won-t-support-clinton

SMARTINSEN
06-23-2016, 12:38 PM
What happened to Jamie?

genglandoh
07-27-2016, 10:12 AM
Many anti-Hillary protests inside and outside the Dem Convention.
It seems the Sanders Supporters are not convinced Hillary would make a good President.

Hillary has not reached out to the Sanders supporters but instead is saying don't vote for Trump.

I still think about 6% to 11% of Dems will not vote for Hillary.
If Hillary does not turn this around she will lose the election.

Garret
07-27-2016, 10:18 AM
Not sure it was "many" - according to what I've found on the web it was 100-150. That's out of 1900 pledged Bernie Delegates. But the RW sources will make it sound HUUGE!

genglandoh
07-27-2016, 11:59 AM
Not sure it was "many" - according to what I've found on the web it was 100-150. That's out of 1900 pledged Bernie Delegates. But the RW sources will make it sound HUUGE!

Outside the convention there has been some larger protests people in the thousands.
Inside the convention it is a little harder to know because they are being told by the DNC to keep quite.
So they are taping their mouths shut in protest.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dnc-kicks-off-chair-debbie-wasserman-schultz-gavel/story?id=40851427

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/RT_dnc_protestors_as_160725_4x3_992.jpg

Garret
07-27-2016, 12:02 PM
Outside the convention there has been some larger protests people in the thousands.
Inside the convention it is a little harder to know because they are being told by the DNC to keep quite.
So they are taping their mouths shut in protest.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dnc-kicks-off-chair-debbie-wasserman-schultz-gavel/story?id=40851427



I was talking about how many delegates left the convention. There could be any # of plain old protesters.

genglandoh
07-27-2016, 12:04 PM
I was talking about how many delegates left the convention. There could be any # of plain old protesters.

OK thanks for making that clear.
I was talking about all the protests.

genglandoh
08-11-2016, 12:14 PM
Many anti-Hillary protests inside and outside the Dem Convention.
It seems the Sanders Supporters are not convinced Hillary would make a good President.

Hillary has not reached out to the Sanders supporters but instead is saying don't vote for Trump.

I still think about 6% to 11% of Dems will not vote for Hillary.
If Hillary does not turn this around she will lose the election.

My statement of 6% to 11% was based on
1. 15-30% of sanders supporters will not vote for Hillary.
2. Sanders supporters are about 45% of total Dems

Title: About A Third Of Bernie Sanders’s Supporters Still Aren’t Backing Hillary Clinton
Pollsters show Clinton receiving varying levels of support from Sanders voters, but CNN, Fox News,2 Marist and YouGov all show Clinton’s margin over Trump among these voters shrinking when third-party candidates are presented as options. On average, Clinton loses 12 percentage points off her margin over Trump among Sanders backers — identical to the change I calculated before both conventions took place. Clinton is below 70 percent among Sanders backers in all four polls and wins an average of just 63 percent when third-party candidates are included. That’s about as well as Trump is doing among well-educated, moderate Republicans — the wing of the GOP least likely to back him. In other words, the Democratic convention seems to have been somewhat of a failure in convincing Sanders voters who oppose Trump to consolidate behind Clinton rather than Johnson or Stein.
Link: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/about-a-third-of-bernie-sanders-supporters-still-arent-backing-hillary-clinton/

Paul Pless
08-11-2016, 12:18 PM
If Hillary does not turn this around she will lose the election.well if not for nothing, you're consistently worth a laugh

Rum_Pirate
08-11-2016, 12:30 PM
. . .
If Hillary does not turn this around she will lose the election.

Can you imagine if she was up against a credible and formidable opponent :confused:

hokiefan
08-11-2016, 12:33 PM
As of today even Rasmussen has Hillary winning. Get used to President Clinton. Your candidate Trump is a loser.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/

Kevin T
08-11-2016, 12:40 PM
My statement of 6% to 11% was based on
1. 15-30% of sanders supporters will not vote for Hillary.
2. Sanders supporters are about 45% of total Dems

Title: About A Third Of Bernie Sanders’s Supporters Still Aren’t Backing Hillary Clinton
Pollsters show Clinton receiving varying levels of support from Sanders voters, but CNN, Fox News,2 Marist and YouGov all show Clinton’s margin over Trump among these voters shrinking when third-party candidates are presented as options. On average, Clinton loses 12 percentage points off her margin over Trump among Sanders backers — identical to the change I calculated before both conventions took place. Clinton is below 70 percent among Sanders backers in all four polls and wins an average of just 63 percent when third-party candidates are included. That’s about as well as Trump is doing among well-educated, moderate Republicans — the wing of the GOP least likely to back him. In other words, the Democratic convention seems to have been somewhat of a failure in convincing Sanders voters who oppose Trump to consolidate behind Clinton rather than Johnson or Stein.
Link: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/about-a-third-of-bernie-sanders-supporters-still-arent-backing-hillary-clinton/

Geng, I think it is time that you start getting used to the phrase; Madame President and I do not believe that Michelle Bachman is the one they are going to be referring to in the use of those two words.

But you keep wishing, pitching, and dreaming because that kind of optimism is inspiring, if just a little, I think, misguided.

TomF
08-11-2016, 12:51 PM
Can you imagine if she was up against a credible and formidable opponent :confused:Oh, that such a one could have emerged, challenging the Dems to seek a similar Titan.

Rum_Pirate
08-11-2016, 12:58 PM
Oh, that such a one could have emerged, challenging the Dems to seek a similar Titan.

That would have been great for America and by extension the world.

As a friend said 'America has over 300 million people and Clinton and Trump are the two final candidates they could come up with to vote to be President?".

John of Phoenix
08-11-2016, 01:11 PM
I notice geng isn't participating over on the Math Thread.

:D LMAO :D


Chance of Winning

Hillary Clinton
86.3%

Donald Trump
13.6%

John of Phoenix
08-11-2016, 01:15 PM
'America has over 300 million people and Clinton and Trump are the two final candidates they could come up with to vote to be President?".What's your problem with Secretary Clinton? reds have investigated her for 25 years and can't come up with anything. What do you have?

TomF
08-11-2016, 01:19 PM
Law of unintended consequences at work.

When the Conservative leadership's stated objective for a generation has been to drown Government in a bathtub, it doesn't inspire innovative and energetic Conservatives to offer themselves into public service - elected or career-oriented. They go and make a difference elsewhere. The ones who do come in are either ideologues, the B-team, or mostly self-oriented.

The effect has been that no major, innovative, policy fields have been tilled by Conservatives for at least 30 years; attention and "excellence" has shifted towards building models that monetize obstruction. In Hegelian fashion, this has produced their opposite numbers in the Dem side, incapable either of being inspirational enough to lead the whole population ... or devious enough to convincingly win at bloodsport-partisanship. Both sides mostly produced mediocrity.

"A system is perfectly designed to produce its current outputs," goes the maxim. You want different outputs (i.e. inspiring leaders), then change the system that's being rewarded by producing something else now.

genglandoh
11-01-2016, 09:23 PM
So Donna Brazile the current DNC chairperson was part of group that fixed the primaries.
I have to believe some Sanders supporters are upset about this news.

ccmanuals
11-02-2016, 09:02 AM
So Donna Brazile the current DNC chairperson was part of group that fixed the primaries.
I have to believe some Sanders supporters are upset about this news.

Geng, there are lots of things you apparently believe that many here find incredulous. Carry on.

Cuyahoga Chuck
11-03-2016, 08:59 PM
So Donna Brazile the current DNC chairperson was part of group that fixed the primaries.
I have to believe some Sanders supporters are upset about this news.

Hillary has a short path to winning. Her victory is not written in the stars but it's more than likely.
Your guy is bound to lose and there is no reason to lose your sanity over it. Take a break. The fat's in the fire and posting dozens of instance where the Dems messed up in the past is not going to change things at this late date. There ain't no revolution in the Democratic party that will allow the the Trump revolution to prevail.

TomF
11-03-2016, 09:17 PM
To the OP: at this point, not a freaking chance. Trump has been very effective at scaring out the vote for the Dems, I think.