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PhaseLockedLoop
12-21-2015, 11:44 AM
A few years ago a local young man was driving his date and a couple of friends home after watching the New Yearís football game. Heíd recently bought his dream car--I canít remember which, but it was big and fast, and he was proud of driving it fast. He was on I-94 eastbound, coming up on Ann Arbor, driving fast as usual, and his fuzzbuster gave a chirp. He couldnít afford to get another ticket, so he accelerated to 90+ mph and took the exit at Zeeb Road. Didnít make it. He was killed, his date was killed, a guy in the back was killed, and the other guy in back was mangled. It made a great too-doo in the papers, with most people wondering if alcohol was involved. (It wasnít.) Then there was the seat belt issue--the only one wearing a seat belt was the girl. It was her first date with the driver, and one can imagine the sneers she got for putting it on.

The one thing that nobody mentioned was: why was the kidís car capable of going so fast? Why arenít the car manufacturers obliged to put governors on their products to prevent them from exceeding the highway limits? Cars donít just happen to go fast, they are deliberately designed to go fast, and advertised as going fast, much of car culture is absorbed in speed (aka ďperformance") and car fanciers gloat over the specs of their wish-list cars.

Now, I quote from a recent gun thread:


A car is a necessary evil that has uses; work is the big one, cars are not designed to kill. Guns have no other function but to kill something or practice for shooting something. So, take your gun analogy, wrap it up and save it for those who don't know the functional difference between a gun and a car. This is a pet excuse you dump on people, apparently republican rabid gun owners lap it up. Reasonable, intelligent people don't.

Sure, cars have legitimate uses, but most are designed to break the law in a most dangerous manner--one that kills thousands of people, including little kiddies, a year. So: why not install governors on cars that prevent them from exceeding the highway speed limit? Easy. Of course plenty of people are killed at lesser speeds, but thereís not much to do about that, that isnít being done already.

George Jung
12-21-2015, 12:24 PM
Look at the automobile ads - even today, what they're promoting is 'speed/handling/power'. Someone once noted cars, at least in the USA, are as much a toy/fashion statement/whatever, as transportation.

George Jung
12-21-2015, 12:25 PM
ETA: governors - good idea; but easily bypassed. Todays cars, with excessive electronics, are 'tunable' with a laptop computer. I could kick the HP up in my van - A VAN, for crying out loud' - to well over 300 HP.

Steve McMahon
12-21-2015, 12:45 PM
There will likely be a time in the future where the maximum speed of vehicles will be limited by sensors embedded in the road.

Hunky Dory
12-21-2015, 01:02 PM
If you put a governor on my truck that restricted it to 70 mph I would likely never know as I seldom go 65. My wife would be bothered.

Dan McCosh
12-21-2015, 01:10 PM
90 mph is 20 mph over the speed limit on expressways, about 10 mph over the usual traffic speed. It's also the speed limit on restricted sections of the German autobahn, which is unlimited in some areas. It hardly seems like an excessive top speed. Many German makes are limited to 155 mph, the speed ratings on their tires. One would crash attempting to exit any limited-access highway at the speed limit. There are indeed things in the works to have cars controlled remotely by the authorities. Much of the legislation has already passed Congress. Doubt that this will be all that popular.

Hugh MacD
12-21-2015, 01:33 PM
90 mph is 20 mph over the speed limit on expressways, about 10 mph over the usual traffic speed. It's also the speed limit on restricted sections of the German autobahn, which is unlimited in some areas. It hardly seems like an excessive top speed. Many German makes are limited to 155 mph, the speed ratings on their tires. One would crash attempting to exit any limited-access highway at the speed limit. There are indeed things in the works to have cars controlled remotely by the authorities. Much of the legislation has already passed Congress. Doubt that this will be all that popular.Dan raised a cogent point with the comparison with Germany. In Germany, part of the license requirement is education, to the tune of (when I was there) around $1000 US out of pocket. They have a "points" system on their licensing and when you run out of "points" you go back to school. Works fairly well. In the US, to get a license, it seems you pretty much just need the cash on hand and a body temperature. That permits you to buy a car or a bike that has speed capabilities that could have won F1 championships not that long ago. Rather than controlling the vehicles, how about controlling the drivers who are expected to control the vehicles? Given the correct car, I LIKE going fast (used to race sports cars), but I get nervous as Hell around drivers who obviously lack the skills required for the speeds they're driving. Ultimate solution? I dunno...I don't think there is one. Ya can't fix stupid, but training helps. Any event like this is a tragedy, but the key component is mechanical...the nut behind the wheel.

PhaseLockedLoop
12-21-2015, 02:07 PM
90 mph is 20 mph over the speed limit on expressways, about 10 mph over the usual traffic speed. It's also the speed limit on restricted sections of the German autobahn, which is unlimited in some areas. It hardly seems like an excessive top speed. Many German makes are limited to 155 mph, the speed ratings on their tires. One would crash attempting to exit any limited-access highway at the speed limit. There are indeed things in the works to have cars controlled remotely by the authorities. Much of the legislation has already passed Congress. Doubt that this will be all that popular.

Spoken like a true Detroit-area person.

Sure, a good alert driver can get away with 90mph on the freeway, usually. I did it for years. But I'm not talking about alert drivers with good judgement, and these fast cars are available to anyone, fools included. I'll bet a bundle that there are thousands of fatal accidents a year involving lost control of cars going faster than 70, not necessarily on the highway. There's no need for super hi-tech schemes to have cars controlled remotely. Just slow the cars down. My point, really, is that there's an irresponsible affection for speed that's a big part of car culture. People like to speed, it makes them feel good. There's an unhealthy, sub-sexual thrill to fast cars that makes all the penis-extending jokes about guns wear a little thin. Especially the accusations that anyone who owns a gun is complicit in every gun death anywhere. Try that for hot cars.

And yeah, I know about the German autobahns. Germans feel about speed limits like gun nuts think about registration.

Just for the record, I support enhanced background checks for gun purchases. You know, you can buy an actual assault rifle--a machine gun--if you pass a really rigorous Federal background check. I don't know why that isn't required for any gun.

Reynard38
12-21-2015, 03:03 PM
What a little German ingenuity is capable of...


http://youtu.be/Fuj7x4Px6zQ

Think you got a fight in your hands trying to limit assault weapons? Try to limit automotive choices to what YOU think is acceptable. The story you referenced is in no way justification for your Quixotic quest. The guy was a moron.
What was his speed when he lost control? There are highways here in the US with 80mph limits, maybe even 85. Are you saying that 10mph was the difference? A bad driver is deadly at 55 as well.
I am for better driver education just as I believe in mandatory training for gun ownership. I've driven 130 mph on the autobahn. Felt a LOT safer than 65 here in Atlanta.

seanz
12-21-2015, 04:11 PM
A few years ago a local young man was driving his date and a couple of friends home after watching the New Year’s football game. He’d recently bought his dream car--I can’t remember which, but it was big and fast, and he was proud of driving it fast. He was on I-94 eastbound, coming up on Ann Arbor, driving fast as usual, and his fuzzbuster gave a chirp. He couldn’t afford to get another ticket, so he accelerated to 90+ mph and took the exit at Zeeb Road. Didn’t make it. He was killed, his date was killed, a guy in the back was killed, and the other guy in back was mangled. It made a great too-doo in the papers, with most people wondering if alcohol was involved. (It wasn’t.) Then there was the seat belt issue--the only one wearing a seat belt was the girl. It was her first date with the driver, and one can imagine the sneers she got for putting it on.

The one thing that nobody mentioned was: why was the kid’s car capable of going so fast? Why aren’t the car manufacturers obliged to put governors on their products to prevent them from exceeding the highway limits? Cars don’t just happen to go fast, they are deliberately designed to go fast, and advertised as going fast, much of car culture is absorbed in speed (aka “performance") and car fanciers gloat over the specs of their wish-list cars.

Now, I quote from a recent gun thread:



Sure, cars have legitimate uses, but most are designed to break the law in a most dangerous manner--one that kills thousands of people, including little kiddies, a year. So: why not install governors on cars that prevent them from exceeding the highway speed limit? Easy. Of course plenty of people are killed at lesser speeds, but there’s not much to do about that, that isn’t being done already.

Besides the obvious, that if you're on your last point you should drive like a Nana, the real problem here was not speed but ignorance.

George Jung
12-21-2015, 04:14 PM
What a little German ingenuity is capable of...


http://youtu.be/Fuj7x4Px6zQ

Think you got a fight in your hands trying to limit assault weapons? Try to limit automotive choices to what YOU think is acceptable. The story you referenced is in no way justification for your Quixotic quest. The guy was a moron.
What was his speed when he lost control? There are highways here in the US with 80mph limits, maybe even 85. Are you saying that 10mph was the difference? A bad driver is deadly at 55 as well.
I am for better driver education just as I believe in mandatory training for gun ownership. I've driven 130 mph on the autobahn. Felt a LOT safer than 65 here in Atlanta.

Depends on the car, to some extent - but when 'life turns to $hit', yes - 10 mph difference can be significant. Recall some of those physics formulas, mass and energy. It's not the speed that kills ya - it's the stopping.

SD recently kicked their speed up to 80 mph on interstate. Not at all necessary; and of course, most are adding at least 5. Hitting ice, this time of year, is stimulating, esp. at speed.

Dan McCosh
12-21-2015, 04:52 PM
I'll bet a bundle that there are thousands of fatal accidents a year involving lost control of cars going faster than 70, not necessarily on the highway. . Going faster than 70 mph on your front lawn is not recommended.

Reynard38
12-21-2015, 07:11 PM
Depends on the car, to some extent - but when 'life turns to $hit', yes - 10 mph difference can be significant. Recall some of those physics formulas, mass and energy. It's not the speed that kills ya - it's the stopping.

SD recently kicked their speed up to 80 mph on interstate. Not at all necessary; and of course, most are adding at least 5. Hitting ice, this time of year, is stimulating, esp. at speed.

I cross Nebraska frequently at 480 knots.
Even that isn't fast enough. ;)

Obviously speed must be defendant on conditions. On an icy road even 55 is too fast. During daylight hours in good weather I certainly don't see a problem with 80 on a rural interstate.

Paul Pless
12-21-2015, 07:13 PM
I cross Nebraska frequently at 480 knots.
Even that isn't fast enough. ;)

Obviously speed must be defendant on conditions. On an icy road even 55 is too fast. During daylight hours in good weather I certainly don't see a problem with 80 on a rural interstate.

A hundred wouldn't be too much in most of Nebraska. . .

Rich Jones
12-21-2015, 07:36 PM
How many times do we see high speed car commercials with disclaimers, in small print across the bottom of the screen, saying, "Closed course, professional driver, don't attempt on your own". So, why have that commercial??

Gerarddm
12-21-2015, 07:47 PM
I seem to recall a statistic that noted that most auto accidents, and I believe fatalities, occur within 25 miles from home. My tendency is to think that many of those did not involve high speed but were examples of inattentive driving, running stop lights and signs, DUI, etc.

ron ll
12-21-2015, 07:51 PM
I've noticed on our new car the nav screen displays the current speed limit. Even if there is a temporary slower limit for construction or something, the car seems to know it. Not too much of a stretch to have that wired to a governor or a ticket. Of course as pointed out, it can be hacked.

George Jung
12-21-2015, 08:05 PM
I seem to recall a statistic that noted that most auto accidents, and I believe fatalities, occur within 25 miles from home. My tendency is to think that many of those did not involve high speed but were examples of inattentive driving, running stop lights and signs, DUI, etc.

There's lottsa ways to maim/kill yourself driving; but increasing the energy in a wreck ups the fatality/misery rate. Simple science.


A hundred wouldn't be too much in most of Nebraska. . .


I cross Nebraska frequently at 480 knots.
Even that isn't fast enough. ;)
.


Good to know; we are trying to keep the riffraff out; glad to see you two doing your part.

ron ll
12-21-2015, 08:52 PM
Good to know; we are trying to keep the riffraff out; glad to see you two doing your part.

:D :D
I've never been there but my dad was born there, Ponca I believe.

seanz
12-21-2015, 09:15 PM
I seem to recall a statistic that noted that most auto accidents, and I believe fatalities, occur within 25 miles from home. My tendency is to think that many of those did not involve high speed but were examples of inattentive driving, running stop lights and signs, DUI, etc.

And, maybe, because that's where people do the majority of their driving?



There's lottsa ways to maim/kill yourself driving; but increasing the energy in a wreck ups the fatality/misery rate. Simple science.


Increase the weight in the car...

Reynard38
12-21-2015, 09:45 PM
Every now and then I wonder if I'm getting old.
Then I tune in to the bilge and I read guys complaining about fast cars and saying they want big brother remote controlling how they drive.

I'm feeling much younger now, thanks. Think I'll go for a drive. A fast one.

George Jung
12-21-2015, 10:51 PM
You do that; I'd suggest aiming for that '450 knots', you know, for $hits and giggles.

AFA 'wanting big brother to remote control' - now you're just projecting; something I'd expect from RW or his ilk; guess we all have our sacred cows, eh? But for myself - I'd just like folks to use some common sense, and respect for others. I really don't care how fast you drive, or even if you kill/maim yourself. I'm sure there's something in the Constitution protecting just that right. But I do have a problem with you (and yours) killing/maiming others. $hit happens - but it happens a helluva lot more with folks who are irresponsible. I'd suggest - you want to drive real fast - go to a track. Purpose built, I do believe.

mdh
12-22-2015, 04:38 AM
Sure. Let's go ahead and regulate that stoves and ovens don't get hot enough to burn us too.

slug
12-22-2015, 05:18 AM
Gee...a honda civic can go 120 mph.

Drive one into a light pole at that speed and ...whamo, out goes. The lights.

you could say that hod rods like a 500 hp mustang encourage speedy driving.

ive got a feeling that even if you limited the 500 hp beast to 55 mph , beast Drivers would find a way to speed thru a school crosswalk or shopping centre parking lot at 55 and kill people.

i say its better to invest in law enforcement, road design and driver education .

AnalogKid
12-22-2015, 07:13 AM
My good lady's new car gives a spoken warning in an Aussie accent whenever the local speed limit is exceeded - it's linked to the gps so knows all the regular limits, but not temporary ones for roadworks. It can be turned off, but is actually pretty useful, especially over the holiday period when the cops exercise a 4kph tolerance. You spend more time watching the road in the safe knowledge that the Sheila will inform you of even the most minor transgression.

xflow7
12-22-2015, 07:25 AM
Well, there exists the automotive analogue of target-shooting in the form of high performance track days in which thousands (or even 10's of thousands) of people participate each year. This is controlled-environment high-speed driving on a closed course. Most take part in these events in the cars they use as daily, or at least casual, street drivers. IMHO, it's unreasonable to suggest anything that takes away that possibility. Especially because for most people keeping a dedicated track car, with the attendant additional vehicle investment, storage, and transport equipment, is out of reach.

Dave

Dan McCosh
12-22-2015, 09:15 AM
I seem to recall a statistic that noted that most auto accidents, and I believe fatalities, occur within 25 miles from home. My tendency is to think that many of those did not involve high speed but were examples of inattentive driving, running stop lights and signs, DUI, etc.About a third of highway fatalities involved "speeding", but those more often are on secondary roads. This would mean top speed--such a the example cited--usually is not the issue.

PhaseLockedLoop
12-22-2015, 02:09 PM
What a little German ingenuity is capable of...


http://youtu.be/Fuj7x4Px6zQ

Think you got a fight in your hands trying to limit assault weapons? Try to limit automotive choices to what YOU think is acceptable. The story you referenced is in no way justification for your Quixotic quest. The guy was a moron.
What was his speed when he lost control? There are highways here in the US with 80mph limits, maybe even 85. Are you saying that 10mph was the difference? A bad driver is deadly at 55 as well.
I am for better driver education just as I believe in mandatory training for gun ownership. I've driven 130 mph on the autobahn. Felt a LOT safer than 65 here in Atlanta.

Of course he was a moron, but you're not thinking too well either. He couldn't have accelerated to 90+ in a governed car, and of course he wouldn't have needed to, since he'd have been obeying the speed limit.

PhaseLockedLoop
12-22-2015, 02:14 PM
I've noticed on our new car the nav screen displays the current speed limit. Even if there is a temporary slower limit for construction or something, the car seems to know it. Not too much of a stretch to have that wired to a governor or a ticket.

That would be best.


Of course as pointed out, it can be hacked.

Sure it could be hacked. But anyone driving much faster would stick out like a fish in a tree.

Dan McCosh
12-22-2015, 02:35 PM
The data is coming in from tests with self-driving cars, which precisely obey all the traffic laws. They have been in up to five times the normal rate of accidents compared to the rate for lawless, human drivers.

Paul Pless
12-22-2015, 02:47 PM
My good lady's new car gives a spoken warning in an Aussie accent whenever the local speed limit is exceeded - it's linked to the gps so knows all the regular limits, but not temporary ones for roadworks. It can be turned off, but is actually pretty useful, especially over the holiday period when the cops exercise a 4kph tolerance. You spend more time watching the road in the safe knowledge that the Sheila will inform you of even the most minor transgression.

Sheila eh? Sounds like my wife, except she does it in a yankee bitchy accent. . .

Hugh MacD
12-22-2015, 03:03 PM
The data is coming in from tests with self-driving cars, which precisely obey all the traffic laws. They have been in up to five times the normal rate of accidents compared to the rate for lawless, human drivers.
I have seen similar figures. Have you seen anything that indicates any fatalities in an AUV? No... I don't want one and yes,,,I prefer driving my own vehicle...at speed when it's safe (ie: great visibility, no traffic, nice wiggly bits, etc....). I wonder how much of the accident disparity is due to the mix of AUV vs Human guided vehicles? There's a long way to go toward final AUV development, but I think it's pretty exciting that they've come this far!

Steve McMahon
12-22-2015, 03:06 PM
Sheila eh? Sounds like my wife, except she does it in a yankee bitchy accent. . .

That's gonna hurt....

PhaseLockedLoop
12-22-2015, 03:12 PM
I seem to recall a statistic that noted that most auto accidents, and I believe fatalities, occur within 25 miles from home. My tendency is to think that many of those did not involve high speed but were examples of inattentive driving, running stop lights and signs, DUI, etc.

For Christ sake! I'm not saying that all, or even most fatalities would evaporate. I'm saying that many would. That's as close to a fact as you can get for a prediction. How many? I'm guessing thousands; I won't go Norman's route of saying "even ONE." I'm perfectly aware that plenty of reckless driving happens at less than 70mph, and if there was a way of forcing people to slow down under some conditions (as Steve suggested) I'd be all for it.

I also know that there are plenty of places, and circumstances (like a deserted Kansas road) where it would be irksome to be limited, at least for people like us who are accustomed to being in full control of their car. Yesterday, in fact, I drove 150 miles on US23, mostly going between 80 and 85 with little traffic, and it seemed safe. But I used to drive professionally, mostly on expressways, and two or three times a week I'd see gruesome accidents with twisted wreckage and dead people. By contrast, I've never in my life seen anyone killed by so-called assault weapons, or known anybody who has (military excepted, natch.)

It isn't even that accidents are more likely to happen at >70mph, it's that they're more likely to result in death or serious injury.

Is anyone actually saying it wouldn't save lives? Or is it just that it wouldn't save enough to make it worth while? Or is it just that it'd make life less interesting to scofflaws who like to sneer at "secretaries cars." As it stands, I'm one of the scofflaws, but then I like to shoot guns too. I'd be annoyed if my cars were limited to 70, but I'd put up with it, and give up my guns too. Not that there's the slightest likelihood of that happening.

The Bigfella
12-22-2015, 03:15 PM
The most dangerous bit of driving (riding if you will) I've done in the last year was at 1 kilometre per hour.... and I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted an auto pilot doing the steering. Through a 117 metre long, still moving landslide. Took 6 minutes 50 seconds.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/ThaiLaos2015/1111a_zpssfuahvmx.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/ThaiLaos2015/1111a_zpssfuahvmx.jpg.html)

Sorta funny to be in such a remote location.... then be able to download data on the journey like that.

PhaseLockedLoop
12-22-2015, 03:24 PM
Well, there exists the automotive analogue of target-shooting in the form of high performance track days in which thousands (or even 10's of thousands) of people participate each year. This is controlled-environment high-speed driving on a closed course. Most take part in these events in the cars they use as daily, or at least casual, street drivers. IMHO, it's unreasonable to suggest anything that takes away that possibility. Especially because for most people keeping a dedicated track car, with the attendant additional vehicle investment, storage, and transport equipment, is out of reach.

Dave

Oh, you're breaking my heart. Hobbyists may be inconvenienced just to save lives? I hope this is a joke. (I'm taking it for granted here that my suggestion would save lives, which of course is not proven, but seems clear as glass to me.)

Reynard38
12-22-2015, 04:03 PM
Last year I drove around a good chunk of Germany and Austria. @ 1000 miles worth. In that time I didn't see one wreck. Not one. I drove both back roads in the alps and the autobahn and speeds up to 130mph. Got passed several times by cars going at least 160.
I found the Germans to be very good and courteous drivers.
I also didn't see one POS car on the road. No banged up Junkers running around on space saver spares.

Every time I drive the 30 miles from my home on the Northside of Atlanta to the airport I see not one, but 2 or 3 wrecks. Every time, bar none.
The problem isn't high performance cars. Rather it is low performance drivers.

Dan McCosh
12-22-2015, 04:13 PM
The technology to actively monitor and control the speed and location of cars and trucks on the road certainly is available, and is being funded and enabling legislation is being passed. Will there be a reaction to this trend?

Dan McCosh
12-22-2015, 04:15 PM
Last year I drove around a good chunk of Germany and Austria. @ 1000 miles worth. In that time I didn't see one wreck. Not one. I drove both back roads in the alps and the autobahn and speeds up to 130mph. Got passed several times by cars going at least 160.
I found the Germans to be very good and courteous drivers.
I also didn't see one POS car on the road. No banged up Junkers running around on space saver spares.

Every time I drive the 30 miles from my home on the Northside of Atlanta to the airport I see not one, but 2 or 3 wrecks. Every time, bar none.
The problem isn't high performance cars. Rather it is low performance drivers. Germany has fewer accidents than the U.S., and more fatalities. When you crash on the autobahn, its a big one.

The Bigfella
12-22-2015, 04:18 PM
Last year I drove around a good chunk of Germany and Austria. @ 1000 miles worth. In that time I didn't see one wreck. Not one. I drove both back roads in the alps and the autobahn and speeds up to 130mph. Got passed several times by cars going at least 160.
I found the Germans to be very good and courteous drivers.
I also didn't see one POS car on the road. No banged up Junkers running around on space saver spares.

Every time I drive the 30 miles from my home on the Northside of Atlanta to the airport I see not one, but 2 or 3 wrecks. Every time, bar none.
The problem isn't high performance cars. Rather it is low performance drivers.


........... and where's the photo thread?

The Bigfella
12-22-2015, 04:23 PM
Germany has fewer accidents than the U.S., and more fatalities. When you crash on the autobahn, its a big one.

Um... 4.9 fatalities per 1 billion km traveled in Germany in 2013. 4.3 fatalities per 100,000 population

7.6 per 1 billion km traveled in the USA in 2012. 11.6 fatalities per 100,000 population per annum.

Unless something miraculous happened in either country in the one year difference in stats.... I'd rather run with the German stats. Maybe it's just crappier cars in the USA?

Tom Wilkinson
12-22-2015, 04:23 PM
Germany has fewer accidents than the U.S., and more fatalities. When you crash on the autobahn, its a big one.

Got a source for that?

From what I have seen their fatality rate is also far lower.
one source http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/02/germanys-fatal-accident-rate-is-less-than-half-of-ours-despite-driving-at-155-mph

Reynard38
12-22-2015, 04:27 PM
The technology to actively monitor and control the speed and location of cars and trucks on the road certainly is available, and is being funded and enabling legislation is being passed. Will there be a reaction to this trend?

Just like tuning a car to increase the performance, you'll be able to mask its signature. A 1998 M3 I used to own was tuned from 240hp to @ 310. Part of the mod was a set of performance headers, and cat bypass pipes. Despite this when the car plugged into the OBD2 emmisons tester it passed with flying colors.
There will be a way around it.

Reynard38
12-22-2015, 04:30 PM
........... and where's the photo thread?

Neuschwaunstein in the background.

http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah159/mark_ritter1/image_zpsdrploeru.jpeg (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/mark_ritter1/media/image_zpsdrploeru.jpeg.html)

Captain Intrepid
12-22-2015, 04:36 PM
Every now and then I wonder if I'm getting old.
Then I tune in to the bilge and I read guys complaining about fast cars and saying they want big brother remote controlling how they drive.

I'm feeling much younger now, thanks. Think I'll go for a drive. A fast one.

You know what's hilarious? How many people of your generation died in car crashes compared to now.

Oh wait, that's not funny, that's just sad.

The Bigfella
12-22-2015, 04:36 PM
Just like tuning a car to increase the performance, you'll be able to mask its signature. A 1998 M3 I used to own was tuned from 240hp to @ 310. Part of the mod was a set of performance headers, and cat bypass pipes. Despite this when the car plugged into the OBD2 emmisons tester it passed with flying colors.
There will be a way around it.

What on earth did BMW do to strangle an M3 down to 240?

My 3.6 litre (actually 3,535cc) 1990 M5 was 315 hp stock. Haven't dyno'd it with the chip... but fencepost to fencepost testing of it with 4 different chips says it's way above stock.

The Bigfella
12-22-2015, 04:37 PM
Neuschwaunstein in the background.

http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah159/mark_ritter1/image_zpsdrploeru.jpeg (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/mark_ritter1/media/image_zpsdrploeru.jpeg.html)

Nice.... looks like a fast car

Jim Mahan
12-22-2015, 04:37 PM
The technology to actively monitor and control the speed and location of cars and trucks on the road certainly is available, and is being funded and enabling legislation is being passed. Will there be a reaction to this trend?

At some point enough of this will be built, and the differences established, and we will have a transitional period as owning and driving the electronically connected and controlled cars will continue to be optional, and then there will be a tipping point where it becomes clear and there will be a major move to first limit and then ban owner-driven cars, and only the smart connected kind will be allowed on most roads. The savings in lives and property and insurance as well as operating costs for fleets etc, will all justify it

Dan McCosh
12-22-2015, 04:38 PM
Got a source for that?

From what I have seen their fatality rate is also far lower.
one source http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/02/germanys-fatal-accident-rate-is-less-than-half-of-ours-despite-driving-at-155-mph I was wrong.

Jim Mahan
12-22-2015, 04:40 PM
Neuschwaunstein in the background.

http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah159/mark_ritter1/image_zpsdrploeru.jpeg (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/mark_ritter1/media/image_zpsdrploeru.jpeg.html)



If I ever get to drive on the autobahn or in the Alps, I hope I don't have to do it in a stationwagon.

Nice castle, though.

Canoeyawl
12-22-2015, 04:54 PM
The technology to actively monitor and control the speed and location of cars and trucks on the road certainly is available, and is being funded and enabling legislation is being passed. Will there be a reaction to this trend?

I'm thinking that actual "control" of the vehicle might not go over well, but monitoring via the GPS, combined with the "location" on your cell phone would be a seductive bit of income for the companies that will offer it and the muncipalities that use it. Almost exactly the same privatized corporate system as cell phone tracking, red light cameras, and prisons for profit. It is likely already in place.
(Can you say "republican"?)

Reynard38
12-22-2015, 07:49 PM
Yeah about those companies running the red light cameras. Here in GA when they were installed the company also shortened the yellows. Result? More red lights run, and higher profits for the company.

And you want them to monitor your driving habits?

PhaseLockedLoop
12-22-2015, 08:50 PM
Um... 4.9 fatalities per 1 billion km traveled in Germany in 2013. 4.3 fatalities per 100,000 population

7.6 per 1 billion km traveled in the USA in 2012. 11.6 fatalities per 100,000 population per annum.

Unless something miraculous happened in either country in the one year difference in stats.... I'd rather run with the German stats. Maybe it's just crappier cars in the USA?

What this has to do with what I'm talking about stumps me, unless it's an argument for raising the US speed limit to 160mph, or whatever. Meantime, the limit here, with few exceptions, is 70mph. It's illegal to go faster, even without governors. And please, folks, don't tell me again that it's common to have serious accidents at lower speeds.

People in the US exceed the 70mph speed limit all the time; literally millions of such instances occur every day. Only a relatively few people are killed, which testifies to the fact that most people, idiots included, can operate their cars at those speeds almost all the time without killing anybody. OK? Is it fair to inconvenience those people by arranging that they drive legally, just in order to save xxx lives and xxx gruesome injuries? Or what?

johnw
12-22-2015, 09:04 PM
We're reaching historic lows in traffic fatalities:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/U.S._traffic_deaths_as_fraction_of_total_populatio n_1900-2010.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year#/media/File:U.S._traffic_deaths_as_fraction_of_total_popu lation_1900-2010.png


In fact, we're getting close to the point where cars kill fewer people than guns. We're already doing something that works with cars, not so much with guns.

Lew Barrett
12-22-2015, 09:08 PM
The savings in lives and property and insurance as well as operating costs for fleets etc, will all justify it

Maybe. Suffered any issues with a computer lately? :)

Reynard speaks my language on this topic. Train the drivers, ban texting, coffee sipping and hair primping, include lane maintenance features if you must, and insist that a watchful driver be at the wheel of all autonomous vehicles at all times to override the inevitable glitches in any autonomous system.....which are certain to be with us for a long, long time. How much do you trust Google to be your car company?

Oh yeah, get a real scheme to get the junk off the road. Just like they do in all the other civilized countries. American driver training is a disgrace and what we allow on the road is equally abominable. Even our emissions testing schemes are laughable, and that is pretty much all we test for.

johnw
12-22-2015, 09:24 PM
Maybe. Suffered any issues with a computer lately? :)

Reynard speaks my language on this topic. Train the drivers, ban texting, coffee sipping and hair primping, include lane maintenance features if you must, and insist that a watchful driver be at the wheel of all autonomous vehicles at all times to override the inevitable glitches in any autonomous system.....which are certain to be with us for a long, long time. How much do you trust Google to be your car company?

Oh yeah, get a real scheme to get the junk off the road. Just like they do in all the other civilized countries. American driver training is a disgrace and what we allow on the road is equally abominable. Even our emissions testing schemes are laughable, and that is pretty much all we test for.

There are a number of states where cars have to pass a safety inspection, particularly in places where they salt the roads.

George Jung
12-23-2015, 11:26 AM
I enjoy 'speed' and performance, but used to do a lot of trauma care. Nothing sucks the fun out of a joyous pasttime, like pulling folks mangled bodies from a wreck, and trying to salvage what's left.

That's my point. Too many folks driving beyond their ability, on public thoroughfares. I don't really care if folks injure themselves, but the carnage some appear intent on visiting the rest of us - that's a problem.

Go to the track.

Hugh MacD
12-23-2015, 11:57 AM
If I ever get to drive on the autobahn or in the Alps, I hope I don't have to do it in a stationwagon.

Nice castle, though.
I had a pretty similar wagon in Germany and it outhandled a friend's GT-350 (real one) that I used to play around with. Surprised me! And for a chance to drive around more in Southern Germany I'd be happy with pretty much anything :) Didn't get down to Neuschwaunstein, though. The one I had would run at 200+ kph all day and still got decent mileage (kilometerage?).

Lew Barrett
12-24-2015, 08:22 AM
There are a number of states where cars have to pass a safety inspection, particularly in places where they salt the roads.

Indeed. New York requires such. But when was the last time anybody in a position of authority on the west coast or the south asked you if your or still had functioning brakes? And driver training is universally lousy all around the country.

Lew Barrett
12-24-2015, 08:27 AM
What on earth did BMW do to strangle an M3 down to 240?



While the rest of the world got a new and more appropriately muscular motor in the E36 versions, we got the old 240HP lump. It made the arrival of the E46 seem like a breath of fresh air. Why? I don't remember. Maybe emissions related? Maybe they were just punishing us for the 101st's superior performance in the Ardennes?

Garret
12-24-2015, 09:07 AM
There are a number of states where cars have to pass a safety inspection, particularly in places where they salt the roads.

While I agree 10,000% about getting drivers real training, it blows my mind that all 50 states don't have at least annual inspections. If you think people are clueless about driving, try inspecting their cars. It's not just rust issues - though those can be very dangerous - but shot front ends, bad brakes, mickey mouse repairs in brake systems, leaky exhaust systems that can get CO in the car, bald tires, the list goes on & on.

No - it's not a constitutional right to drive a POS that might lose its brakes & plow into me or drop a ball joint & veer into my lane.

Reynard38
12-24-2015, 09:10 AM
If I ever get to drive on the autobahn or in the Alps, I hope I don't have to do it in a stationwagon.

Nice castle, though.

Never have understood the aversion to wagons in the US. The same people that'll drive a Tahoe, Expedition or Suburban look down thier noses at a wagon.
Maybe it's due to the pieces of crap that Detriot foisted on us for so long, wood side paneling and all.
We did Euro Delivery on this one, so it now resides in our garage here. Fantastic handling with the sport package, easily did 130mph and when you drive at legal highway speeds return 48mpg, 36 in town.
The wagon enjoys a 50/50 weight distribution too. Add all wheel drive to the equation as well. It did quite well on autobahn and twisty alpine roads.

Reynard38
12-24-2015, 09:20 AM
What on earth did BMW do to strangle an M3 down to 240?

My 3.6 litre (actually 3,535cc) 1990 M5 was 315 hp stock. Haven't dyno'd it with the chip... but fencepost to fencepost testing of it with 4 different chips says it's way above stock.

we got the S52 engine, the ROW the S54. 80hp difference. My M Roadster has the S54. Quite an engine. I believe it was the first normally aspirated production engine to make more than 100 bhp/liter.

johnw
12-24-2015, 03:29 PM
Never have understood the aversion to wagons in the US. The same people that'll drive a Tahoe, Expedition or Suburban look down thier noses at a wagon.
Maybe it's due to the pieces of crap that Detriot foisted on us for so long, wood side paneling and all.
We did Euro Delivery on this one, so it now resides in our garage here. Fantastic handling with the sport package, easily did 130mph and when you drive at legal highway speeds return 48mpg, 36 in town.
The wagon enjoys a 50/50 weight distribution too. Add all wheel drive to the equation as well. It did quite well on autobahn and twisty alpine roads.

crossover SUVs are about the same shape as a Studebaker Lark station wagon. We don't drive many cars called station wagons, but we keep driving cars that are functionally station wagons.

http://www.stationwagonforums.com/forums/media/1959-studebaker-lark.4989/download

http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/35646/2008-toyota-highlander-photo-37055-s-986x603.jpg

Dan McCosh
12-24-2015, 04:20 PM
crossover SUVs are about the same shape as a Studebaker Lark station wagon. We don't drive many cars called station wagons, but we keep driving cars that are functionally station wagons.

http://www.stationwagonforums.com/forums/media/1959-studebaker-lark.4989/download

http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/35646/2008-toyota-highlander-photo-37055-s-986x603.jpg The mainstream passenger hauler in the U.S. has been a "station wagon" type for about 60 years--and is unlikely to change soon. Only the name changes.

The Bigfella
12-24-2015, 04:50 PM
This thread needs more photos. A friend built this one... an M5 Touring replica, from a 525 Touring and a rusty M5 that he imported from England. Did a great job of it too. Wasn't quite as quick as my M5 sedan, due to a tad more weight. I almost bought that Hartge off the other guy - a very fast little 3 series.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Third/aDSC_0163.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Third/aDSC_0163.jpg.html)

Vince Brennan
12-24-2015, 04:59 PM
Hitting ice, this time of year, is stimulating, esp. at speed. "Stimulating". What a GREAT choice of words, like, "Exiting the aircraft without a parachute may be a minor thrill..."

At speed.

Stimulating.

Ooooo - Kay.








:D

Reynard38
12-24-2015, 05:24 PM
An E30 I put together a while back;

http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah159/mark_ritter1/image_zpslqg6j42f.jpeg (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/mark_ritter1/media/image_zpslqg6j42f.jpeg.html)

1987 325is. 325e block and rods. 324td forged crank. Forged Pistons.
TCD stage 2 turbo kit w/ liquid to air intercooler.
Quick ratio rack, Tien coil overs, urethane bushings, 5 lug conversion and a E36 M3 big brake kit.
Euro bumpers.

Thing was a track weapon, but also very civilized on the street. Passed the sniff test no problem.
On 93 Octane 300 RWHP, on 100 Octane and 15# of boost 350hp/350 torque. Good thing it had an LSD.

Lew Barrett
12-24-2015, 06:07 PM
I enjoy 'speed' and performance, but used to do a lot of trauma care. Nothing sucks the fun out of a joyous pasttime, like pulling folks mangled bodies from a wreck, and trying to salvage what's left.

That's my point. Too many folks driving beyond their ability, on public thoroughfares. I don't really care if folks injure themselves, but the carnage some appear intent on visiting the rest of us - that's a problem.

Go to the track.

Many Americans don't really have the skills or training to be driving 70 on the freeways, never mind 30 over the limit. We're woefully behind the Europeans on this. And then, there are the drunks (I suspect the Europeans hold up their end of the deal in this respect though). Did you get busier on the weekends? Because the drunks do. You can do huge damage at 45 MPH.

Stats (http://www.madd.org/drunk-driving/about/drunk-driving-statistics.html?gclid=Cj0KEQiAzO6zBRC25Ju1idGJiZkB EiQAP3Sf6AmEJU1IAL7yu7JVGS9iv6HOHNuAie7j7lUz9LakYz AaArQv8P8HAQ?referrer=https://www.google.com/)

The Bigfella
12-24-2015, 06:21 PM
Nice E30 Reynard.... but I prefer black for the grilles :D

I still remember my first ever BMW (car) drive. I'd had my R90S for years... but with the cars, I drove an E30 325e that belonged to the MD of our parent company. I was driving General Motors rubbish at the time... quick, but plasticy, bordello interior stuff. I was VERY impressed with the quality feel of the switchgear and the steering precision. The MD, incidentally, had no interest whatsoever in cars. In fact, he probably didn't even choose it... he'd have told his secretary to get him a car, so she bought what she'd like.

The Bigfella
12-24-2015, 09:28 PM
https://william42.smugmug.com/Other/CB-3/i-76xJBB6/0/M/tumblr_nzhr29MRPL1snwonzo1_1280-M.jpg

George Jung
12-24-2015, 09:47 PM
https://william42.smugmug.com/Other/CB-3/i-76xJBB6/0/M/tumblr_nzhr29MRPL1snwonzo1_1280-M.jpg


*sigh*..... see? What'd I tell ya? Yahoos driving beyond their abilities..... he's gonna have a bear of a time getting that thing out..

George Jung
12-24-2015, 09:50 PM
Many Americans don't really have the skills or training to be driving 70 on the freeways, never mind 30 over the limit. We're woefully behind the Europeans on this. And then, there are the drunks (I suspect the Europeans hold up their end of the deal in this respect though). Did you get busier on the weekends? Because the drunks do. You can do huge damage at 45 MPH.

Stats (http://www.madd.org/drunk-driving/about/drunk-driving-statistics.html?gclid=Cj0KEQiAzO6zBRC25Ju1idGJiZkB EiQAP3Sf6AmEJU1IAL7yu7JVGS9iv6HOHNuAie7j7lUz9LakYz AaArQv8P8HAQ?referrer=https://www.google.com/)\\



Combination of factors; cowboys and Indians; interstate by my town; no other towns with Drs or hospital within 70 miles. Lotssa bars and no culture. A strong determination to never wear seatbelts. Oh, and full moons, too damned often.

Daniel Noyes
12-24-2015, 11:21 PM
Govenor story. I had a guy, Mr. McD. stop in at the dealership looking for a chevy truck, second time I saw him he called for a ride (not typical salesman/buyer interaction) from Joes american bar and grill. I picked him up and he bought the truck/ with a trade in, Chevy suburban... that had been parked in his driveway for 10 months and used by his guard dog german shepard as a kennel, 1/2 inch of dog hair allll over the inside and he was a big guy 300lbs +- the steering wheel was broken... off! I had to hold it down physically on the column driving the vehicle back to the dealership...

He came in 5 months later for scheduled service and I said hi, he loves the truck, it's his corvette, etc. As were talking he asks if the truck has a speed govenor, when he was on the highway it felt like the engine was loosing power and bogging down, i said not sure, i asked one of the techy guys and he looked it up, yeah it's set to the max speed rateing of the tires 118 mph...

Mr. D "Oh I thought so! thats why I was loosing power around 115 mph" :ycool:

Reynard38
12-25-2015, 08:09 AM
\\



Combination of factors; cowboys and Indians; interstate by my town; no other towns with Drs or hospital within 70 miles. Lotssa bars and no culture. A strong determination to never wear seatbelts. Oh, and full moons, too damned often.

Always amazed that there STILL are people that get into a car and don't put on a seatbelt.

ahp
12-25-2015, 12:36 PM
There are a number of states where cars have to pass a safety inspection, particularly in places where they salt the roads.

When we lived in Massachusetts the auto inspection was quite comprehensive: all lights, exhaust system, horn, ball joints, head light alignment. The car exhaust gasses were tested with the drive wheels on rollers, in drive, and the engine running at highway speed. I may have missed something.

Down here there is no inspection.

Reynard38
12-25-2015, 01:38 PM
When we lived in Massachusetts the auto inspection was quite comprehensive: all lights, exhaust system, horn, ball joints, head light alignment. The car exhaust gasses were tested with the drive wheels on rollers, in drive, and the engine running at highway speed. I may have missed something.

Down here there is no inspection.

Here in GA in the 15 county metro Atlanta area there is emmisons testing. Cars older than 1996 get the sniff test on the rollers. OBD2 cars (1996 and newer) get plugged into the computer.

Daniel Noyes
12-25-2015, 08:08 PM
I was driving a car in college old enough not to get the sniff test in MA, 1970 Lincon MKIII, that car would go... on the highway, on back roads the wheels were squeeling around corners just doing the speed limit :)

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Md0d9b7620ee442710452dbbb09253b2co0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=329&h=143

Canoeyawl
12-25-2015, 09:11 PM
Lark sleeper...

"This Wagonaire has the high-line Daytona trim package, and has the rare 4-speed floor shifted manual transmission. Certainly, the high point of this drivetrain is the 289ci V8, with the R2 supercharger bumping output to one horsepower per cubic inch. The seller claims that only 15 Wagonaires were built in 1963 with the R2 engine package."

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b457/canoeyawl/Studebaker/image.jpg1.jpg

"Slider" tailgate

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b457/canoeyawl/Studebaker/image.jpg2.jpg

Supercharged!

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b457/canoeyawl/Studebaker/image.jpg3.jpg

Edit to add; The last Canadian versions of this wagon came with the venerable Chevy 283, what better sleeper than slipping a 350 hp 327 in there? Perfect...
(These Canadian versions show up on Ebay sometimes in surprisingly good condition, for 10-12k. What fun)

The Bigfella
12-25-2015, 09:19 PM
I was driving a car in college old enough not to get the sniff test in MA, 1970 Lincon MKIII, that car would go... on the highway, on back roads the wheels were squeeling around corners just doing the speed limit :)

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Md0d9b7620ee442710452dbbb09253b2co0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=329&h=143

I was loaned one of those to visit some relatives who lived up in the Adelaide hills. Driving it up the narrow, twisting roads was like piloting an aircraft carrier.... and about the same speed too.

Garret
12-25-2015, 09:54 PM
Here in GA in the 15 county metro Atlanta area there is emmisons testing. Cars older than 1996 get the sniff test on the rollers. OBD2 cars (1996 and newer) get plugged into the computer.

The emissions tests are (obviously) for pollution only - not safety. They are required wherever air quality has "fallen out of attainment" with EPA standards. So - for example, Mass. has testing, but VT does not. VT is right on the edge & we are watching power generation in the midwest carefully (that's where over 50% of our pollution comes from), as well as providing incentives for electric & hybrids. All that testing equipment & getting tested every year ain't cheap!

Daniel Noyes
12-26-2015, 12:24 AM
I was loaned one of those to visit some relatives who lived up in the Adelaide hills. Driving it up the narrow, twisting roads was like piloting an aircraft carrier.... and about the same speed too.
But the sound from that dual exhaust... wow, just idleing, 460 V8 awsome.

we have a salt marsh road here in newbury that floods with 2-3 inches of river water most of it's length on a high run of tide, more than once driving home at night I would sit in the open window with hand on the wheel and idle through the water watching the white lines inthe headlights, leaveing a v shaped wake that spread out across the marsh... sooo much fun.

almost as much fun as doing the same thing this summer on my Husky 510!

The Bigfella
12-26-2015, 12:57 AM
Speaking of leaving vees.... I like water crossings.... this was on Cape York

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Cape%20and%20Asia/c6.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Cape%20and%20Asia/c6.jpg.html)

Sorry.... definitely no fast cars up there. The place is the size of the UK.... with a population of 18,000... and fast cars fall apart before the get to the tip

Daniel Noyes
12-26-2015, 11:20 AM
:)
very nice!

here's Newman road, there's about 1/4 mile of 3-5 inch deep water when the tide gets up high

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Mf3d80d1a587dc574162abda34c7e9e45o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=279&h=187