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Ian McColgin
12-19-2015, 03:16 PM
We've an incident moving to the courts of a park officer tasing a man. Law enforcement and USCG people discussion the video agree that the civilian was a bit annoying but the officer escalated the event past all reason. I don't think that the officer had a clue as to how uncomfortable lying face down and holding your hands behind your back can be, especially for an older person.

The charge of biting the officer's finger is interesting. The camera does not get the moment but in the time it appears to have happened, the officer's hands were very much in the civilian's face.

Check it out and see what you think. http://www.capecodtimes.com/article/20151216/NEWS/151219528

delecta
12-19-2015, 03:24 PM
Just another case of stupid not understanding what you do when a law officer instructs you what to do.

Ian McColgin
12-19-2015, 03:39 PM
There's little doubt that a person of self-possession can usually control and calm a situation, even when the threat of escalation comes from a uniformed law officer. Young black men are taught this from an early age if they have wise parents as in the US it's a matter of life or death for them. But the plain fact is that law officers are supposed to be the ones settling things down and they are supposed to be above going off over minor irritants.

I think these jerks in uniform need time learning to manage large animals. You'll not get far shouting at a horse.

Paul Pless
12-19-2015, 03:41 PM
Don Savage is a total badass and scofflaw.

Joe (SoCal)
12-19-2015, 04:34 PM
Don Savage is a total badass and scofflaw.

I love this guy :D
Takes the taze and continues to talk.

This is an example of how police need to learn how to "TALK" to people. This WHOLE thing could have been de-escalated by simply doing the "Serve & Protect" thing and not the "Suspect and Provoke" thing.

Example

Ranger: Eh how ah yaaaah noice laaahkin campah ya got thayh, I see ya give sailin lessons, my boy could use some lesson's like thahht befaw he nearly swamped my lobstah boat ta bastaahd, whatcha been up tah, mind ifin I hava chaw with ya?

CWSmith
12-19-2015, 04:49 PM
I have 2 friends who serve on police departments. One is older (actually, he's a retired chief) and now works with battered women helping them navigate the legal system. The other plays acoustic guitar, once had to shoot someone, and once had a gun leveled against him. All he really wants is to protect and to serve. Those are the cops we need.

Phillip Allen
12-19-2015, 04:54 PM
I hesitate to post this, Joe or someone will just call me a cop-hater again and we'll not get anywhere... again

another cop 'incident' http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-shoots-partner-accident-kills-unarmed-man-biking-headphones/

Joe (SoCal)
12-19-2015, 05:00 PM
The cop asked to man twice, to please cooperate, and the man refused. The cop continued to be polite and was disregarded by the moron. The man refused at least a 1/2 dozen basic commands. He could have taken his ticket and filed a complaint later like a law abiding citizen should.

Another cop baiter!

He got what he deserved.

In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada) , the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to reveal their identity when officers have reasonable suspicion (http://flexyourrights.org/faq/what_is_reasonable_suspicion) to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as “stop-and-identify” statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.
As of 2013, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes#States_with_.E2.80.9Cst op-and-identify.E2.80.9D_statutes). Regardless of your state’s law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you’re involved in illegal activity.

S.V. Airlie
12-19-2015, 05:04 PM
I guess that is the problem, I'm willing to identify myself.

Phillip Allen
12-19-2015, 05:07 PM
What does this thug cop have to do the the cop that the OP posted? Just adding fuel to the fire?

cops in need of training...

S.V. Airlie
12-19-2015, 05:09 PM
Gun owners in need of training. Granted some are but, not as many I'd like.

Joe (SoCal)
12-19-2015, 05:09 PM
FWIW I generally follow officers orders and am fully polite and contrite it always goes much better. There have been times when I have felt my civil rights are being eroded and I feel a twange of being bullied by a dumb guy with a gun and a ego power trip, but my feelings are restored when I get to leave and I have not been tazed

Then again I'm an educated older white man, I would HATE to be a poor inner city young man of color.

S.V. Airlie
12-19-2015, 05:11 PM
Ditto Joe, respect goes a long way. If even a little. Hey, I've been stopped by a cop and not just for speeding. I've been polite, show my ID etc. chat for a minute, no gun in his or my hand, just an okay, thank you for giving the info I was looking for, there was a report on the radio but, you're not the guy.

Bob Adams
12-19-2015, 05:17 PM
This works for white people too! (language advisory)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2plo4FOgIU

Bob Adams
12-19-2015, 05:21 PM
I hesitate to post this, Joe or someone will just call me a cop-hater again


Joe didn't, is it OK if I do it?

Phillip Allen
12-19-2015, 05:22 PM
Joe didn't, is it OK if I do it?

I'm an injustice hater... I see you are not

Joe (SoCal)
12-19-2015, 05:30 PM
[QUOTE=Bob Adams;4742983]This works for white people too! (language advisory)

I kinda have to agree with Chris Rock

Phillip Allen
12-19-2015, 05:31 PM
I'm an injustice hater... I see you are not

no response, Bob?

CWSmith
12-19-2015, 05:33 PM
FWIW I generally follow officers orders and am fully polite and contrite it always goes much better. There have been times when I have felt my civil rights are being eroded and I feel a twange of being bullied by a dumb guy with a gun and a ego power trip, but my feelings are restored when I get to leave and I have not been tazed

Then again I'm an educated older white man, I would HATE to be a poor inner city young man of color.

One can always file a complaint once they are safely away. I agree about being an inner city young black man.

Bob Adams
12-19-2015, 05:40 PM
no response, Bob?

Borrowed from Jamie:

http://www.quotationof.com/images/ignorance-quotes-8.jpg

Phillip Allen
12-19-2015, 05:41 PM
Not needed, your position is apparent enough.

it ought to be... I'm generally against injustice... are you not?

Phillip Allen
12-19-2015, 05:42 PM
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop...ng-headphones/

Nicholas Carey
12-20-2015, 02:47 AM
Just another case of stupid not understanding what you do when a law officer instructs you what to do.


He didn't do anything wrong. And the demand for the driver's license wasn't a lawful order, giving that he wasn't driving. He wasn't resisting: he was not complying with a demand the ranger had no authority to make.

In the USA, one is neither required to possess, carry, or present identification (or even to possess it)...with few exceptions, driving a motor vehicle being one of them, when a license is required. Unless your state has a stop-and-identify law. Which Massachusetts does not.

One is required, however, to provide name (and address, depending on the state, but that was never asked for). And he did provide that. Phone number, too.

Never mind that, he is apparently illegally parked...in a largely empty parking lot. And supposedly he'd been warned to move his car. The easy solution would be the "we warned you, now it's going to cost you" approach: just write the parking ticket and/or have the vehicle towed.

The escalation on the part of the ranger was way over the top. Willing to bet if Mr. Savage had nappy hair, it would have been multiple 9mm hardball rounds instead of a taser.

Mr. Savage, admittedly, could have managed things better:

0. Do not have any sort of discussion with the officer. Do not agree to to talk to the officer. Actively make it clear that he has places to go and things to do. Consenting to the contact changes the rules.

1. At the earliest opportunity it's, ask "am I free to go?" If the answer is affirmative, leave. If the officer dissembles on that fact, say, "you didn't answer my question: am I free to go." Repeat until you get a definitive answer. If that answer is yes, say goodbye and leave.

2. Otherwise, ask "Am I under arrest?" If the answer is affirmative, the officer has to Mirandize you and the rules of the game change: ask for an attorney and the questioning stops until an attorney is present. Shut up: you are going to jail and nothing you can say or do will change that except for the worse. Let your attorney sort things out.

3. Otherwise, you are being detained. Ask the office the reason for the detention (I believe the technical term is "specific and articulable facts") and Inform the officer that you are invoking your rights under the 5th amendment and have nothing further to say. Then shut up.

There is nothing you can say that will help you in any way, shape or form: anything you say, as the Miranda card puts it, "can AND WILL be used against you in a court of law." Talking just digs the hole you're in deeper.

And never, ever consent to a search -- of yourself, your belongings, your car, whatever. Make your non-consent clear and demand to see the search warrant that they almost certainly do not have. Don't try to prevent the search. That way lies pain and more charges. Just make sure your attorney has the ammunition to fight the fight for you: non-consent.

skuthorp
12-20-2015, 05:16 AM
Sounds like a place to not visit, there seem to be a lot more of them these days.

Jim Mahan
12-20-2015, 09:55 AM
The other plays acoustic guitar, once had to shoot someone, and once had a gun leveled against him.

I play guitar as well, but I don't usually have to shoot anyone either. Maybe he should try the piano.

delecta
12-20-2015, 10:22 AM
Mr. Savage, admittedly, could have managed things better:

.

I've talked my way out of a half a dozen tickets, been through dwi checks buzzed driving and never once cuffed.

Learn the rules of the game and play, when the rules change hire a lawyer then next day while you're home having a cup of coffee not laying on the ground dealing with high voltage.

Mr Savage "acted stupidly", to quote our president.

Paul Pless
12-20-2015, 10:24 AM
been through dwi checks buzzed driving and never once cuffed. that's gonna leave a mark

CWSmith
12-20-2015, 10:25 AM
I play guitar as well, but I don't usually have to shoot anyone either. Maybe he should try the piano.

Sorry. I lied, but with the best of intentions. I was having a major brain fart and could not remember the word "mandolin". That's what he actually plays. It fits into the back of the car easily and goes to the coffee shop without a lot of trouble.

He suffered for several years after those two events. They haunted him. I think that's the sign of a truly good man and a decent cop. It's not a job I could do, and there are few that I want doing it.

delecta
12-20-2015, 10:42 AM
that's gonna leave a mark

Everyone that drinks has done the same, anyone that claims they haven't is a liar.

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2015, 11:21 AM
I drink rarely! If I go out, and am driving, I only have one at the most. Firstly, I'm not supposed to drink at all, secondly, as an EMT in the past, I've seen enough accidents/deaths from driving drunk and I don't want to be a statistic. One one drink, usually wine, lasts as long as the party. Drinking in excess is nuts.

CWSmith
12-20-2015, 11:46 AM
I drink rarely! If I go out, and am driving, I only have one at the most. Firstly, I'm not supposed to drink at all, secondly, as an EMT in the past, I've seen enough accidents/deaths from driving drunk and I don't want to be a statistic. One one drink, usually wine, lasts as long as the party. Drinking in excess is nuts.

I have about 1 beer per month and not if I'm driving. The count is just because I married a teetotaller. The driving prohibition is because I don't need the hassle if pulled over.

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2015, 12:43 PM
I've talked my way out of a half a dozen tickets, been through dwi checks buzzed driving and never once cuffed. Never was able to do that. Of course my last ticket or stop was 1992.

Bob Adams
12-20-2015, 01:06 PM
He didn't do anything wrong. And the demand for the driver's license wasn't a lawful order, giving that he wasn't driving. He wasn't resisting: he was not complying with a demand the ranger had no authority to make.

In the USA, one is neither required to possess, carry, or present identification (or even to possess it)...with few exceptions, driving a motor vehicle being one of them, when a license is required. Unless your state has a stop-and-identify law. Which Massachusetts does not.

One is required, however, to provide name (and address, depending on the state, but that was never asked for). And he did provide that. Phone number, too.

Never mind that, he is apparently illegally parked...in a largely empty parking lot. And supposedly he'd been warned to move his car. The easy solution would be the "we warned you, now it's going to cost you" approach: just write the parking ticket and/or have the vehicle towed.

The escalation on the part of the ranger was way over the top. Willing to bet if Mr. Savage had nappy hair, it would have been multiple 9mm hardball rounds instead of a taser.

Mr. Savage, admittedly, could have managed things better:

0. Do not have any sort of discussion with the officer. Do not agree to to talk to the officer. Actively make it clear that he has places to go and things to do. Consenting to the contact changes the rules.

1. At the earliest opportunity it's, ask "am I free to go?" If the answer is affirmative, leave. If the officer dissembles on that fact, say, "you didn't answer my question: am I free to go." Repeat until you get a definitive answer. If that answer is yes, say goodbye and leave.

2. Otherwise, ask "Am I under arrest?" If the answer is affirmative, the officer has to Mirandize you and the rules of the game change: ask for an attorney and the questioning stops until an attorney is present. Shut up: you are going to jail and nothing you can say or do will change that except for the worse. Let your attorney sort things out.

3. Otherwise, you are being detained. Ask the office the reason for the detention (I believe the technical term is "specific and articulable facts") and Inform the officer that you are invoking your rights under the 5th amendment and have nothing further to say. Then shut up.

There is nothing you can say that will help you in any way, shape or form: anything you say, as the Miranda card puts it, "can AND WILL be used against you in a court of law." Talking just digs the hole you're in deeper.

And never, ever consent to a search -- of yourself, your belongings, your car, whatever. Make your non-consent clear and demand to see the search warrant that they almost certainly do not have. Don't try to prevent the search. That way lies pain and more charges. Just make sure your attorney has the ammunition to fight the fight for you: non-consent.

Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler just to co operate and not be a jerk?

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2015, 01:32 PM
One is required, however, to provide name (and address, depending on the state, but that was never asked for). And he did provide that. Phone number, too.

So, his name was Santa Clause, his address was the North Pole Apt. A and his phone number was 000-7363869.

Ian McColgin
12-20-2015, 01:49 PM
"Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler just to co operate and not be a jerk?" [#36]

Of course it would, but the job of a police officer is to deal with people who are or appear to be at least a little out of line. If a cop can't do that, he or she is not worthy of the shield. That's what this thread is about. Were this thread about people on the other end of police attention, I'd be addressing the issues in a manner similar to how I did affinity group training for people who would be in a march or a demonstration. But the issue here is the police. Not unlike the training I helped in for a sheriff's department on how they might react to a demonstration at the local nuclear power plant. Yeah, I've played both sides of this street.

Policing has come a long way. Thirty years ago, especially before women officers in any numbers, domestic calls were a major and often lethal hazard, mainly because the officer went in to out-macho both parties and ended up attacked by both. I'm very proud of Barnstable's police, who deal with more homeless, including mentally or drug addled people, and who are learning deescalation methods. You really don't need to shoot or tase or even shout at a person for being a jerk or for being black. Officers who rely only on physical coercion are officers who will make any situation worse. They disgrace their office.

Canoeyawl
12-20-2015, 01:55 PM
Everyone that drinks has done the same, anyone that claims they haven't is a liar.

Anyone that drinks and drives...

Ian McColgin
12-20-2015, 02:43 PM
John L is, of course, correct that not all is sweetness and light. The department is making an effort but nothing is perfect.

You don't really want to hear physicians or attorneys trading stories either.

Jim Bow
12-20-2015, 03:11 PM
In these days of "sovereign citizens" and "oath keepers", belligerent old white guys arouse suspicion.
A cop wouldn't have let him lean back in the truck.

skuthorp
12-20-2015, 03:24 PM
Sounds like Phillip's claims of a developing police state by increments has some validity.
OTOH the proliferation of guns, also supported by Phillip of course, could make any officer very nervous and inclined to take the cautionary principle.

Kevin T
12-20-2015, 03:33 PM
Sounds like Phillip's claims of a developing police state by increments has some validity.
OTOH the proliferation of guns, also supported by Phillip of course, could make any officer very nervous and inclined to take the cautionary principle.



Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, right?

Breakaway
12-20-2015, 10:12 PM
Lets say the cop doesn't detain him. Let's say he allows a guy who is barefoot in December and wearing a sportjacket, and who refuses to identify himself, just drive away with the truck.

Oh. Wait. Suppose it was someone else's truck? How would the cop know?
Oh, well. Who cares. At least everybody would have been happy.

Kevin

Phillip Allen
12-20-2015, 10:51 PM
Lets say the cop doesn't detain him. Let's say he allows a guy who is barefoot in December and wearing a sportjacket, and who refuses to identify himself, just drive away with the truck.

Oh. Wait. Suppose it was someone else's truck? How would the cop know?
Oh, well. Who cares. At least everybody would have been happy.

Kevin

internet what-if arguments aren't worth the paper they're printed on

Breakaway
12-20-2015, 11:11 PM
internet what-if arguments aren't worth the paper they're printed on

Right. Until it's your truck. Then the cop is incompetent instead of too forceful.

Kevin

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Ian McColgin
12-20-2015, 11:20 PM
Breakaway, the whole point of looking at officer training and self-discipline is that 'maybes' can always be an excuse for excessive force, but they do not validate excessive force. If you spend time with competent and trained officers, you'll see the difference between how that officer handles people who may have an attitude or a mental health problem or an actually hazardous criminal. Deescalation works even in the face of someone who is armed and edgy.

This video is wonderful as a training tool where people can analyze places where the officer could have change the whole thing. Maybe they will even have a footnote about why you don't put your hand in someone's mouth.

Nicholas Carey
12-20-2015, 11:42 PM
Lets say the cop doesn't detain him. Let's say he allows a guy who is barefoot in December and wearing a sportjacket, and who refuses to identify himself, just drive away with the truck.

Oh. Wait. Suppose it was someone else's truck? How would the cop know?
Oh, well. Who cares. At least everybody would have been happy.

Kevin


Without something specific, the police have no cause. [cribbing from Wikipedia] In Terry v. Ohio, Chief Justice Warren wrote "And in justifying the particular intrusion the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant that intrusion. (392 U.S. at 21)"

Wearing odd clothes and bare feet does not indicate "possible auto theft". Nor does refusing to proffer identification when not required to.

gilberj
12-20-2015, 11:52 PM
Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler just to co operate and not be a jerk?
That just accepts there is some legitimacy to the actions of the enforcement officers actions
If a cop of some sort is going over the top, you should put him in the toilet by being passive aggressive. Making him or her work for each stage.
In this case I have difficulty believing a parking violation is a reasonable reason for tazering someone...even if you are an ashole, which as far as I know is not yet a crime.
Reminds me of the folks that blame a woman for being raped, because she dressed pretty.

Phillip Allen
12-21-2015, 04:44 AM
That just accepts there is some legitimacy to the actions of the enforcement officers actions
If a cop of some sort is going over the top, you should put him in the toilet by being passive aggressive. Making him or her work for each stage.
In this case I have difficulty believing a parking violation is a reasonable reason for tazering someone...even if you are an ashole, which as far as I know is not yet a crime.
Reminds me of the folks that blame a woman for being raped, because she dressed pretty.

the guy you quoted seems to have a connection to law enforcement and believes they are above reproach

S.V. Airlie
12-21-2015, 10:14 AM
Park violations.

Camping on Mt. Desert Island in the brush. Federal campground\
Summer, visible from just about everywhere, bright orange tent.
Visited by on ranger with large black shepard one morning; complaints from people watching the sun rise.
Took a long time to reach me watched him traverse beaver ponds, brush and streams for about 40 min. in the heat.
On arrival, had a citation book bigger than a bible out.
Well, I actually had permission to be there, working for the feds and no room at the campgrounds which would have been free.
Problem, he didn't know that. Explained why/how/ he called in to the super and
Put his citation book away, just suggested to take the orange tent down (daytime) and have a good day.
Certainly saw no tazer!.I did show him ID., actually had a nice conversation
The other researcher I was with later, just said "WOW, not what I expected"
l

skuthorp
12-21-2015, 02:27 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/01/us-police-killings-this-year-black-americans

Breakaway
12-21-2015, 02:38 PM
Without something specific, the police have no cause. [cribbing from Wikipedia] In Terry v. Ohio, Chief Justice Warren wrote "And in justifying the particular intrusion the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant that intrusion. (392 U.S. at 21)"

Wearing odd clothes and bare feet does not indicate "possible auto theft". Nor does refusing to proffer identification when not required to.

Well, if what you maintain is true, why have we not heard of this cop being put on suspension pending investigation? I am sure the town fathers know all about what is legal and what is not, and,this case being publicized via video, it would see would demand that the municipality suspend the officer.

But a Google search shows know such action.

Can you offer an explanation of why an officer caught on video operating outside the bounds of his authority has not caused any response from the town for which this cop works?

Kevin

Breakaway
12-21-2015, 02:41 PM
In this case I have difficulty believing a parking violation is a reasonable reason for tazering someone...even if you are an ashole, which as far as I know is not yet a crime.

He wasn't tazed for parking violation.

He was tazed for failing to comply ( lie still) after biting the cop ( assaulting an officer)

Kevin

Phillip Allen
12-21-2015, 02:47 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/01/us-police-killings-this-year-black-americans

interesting article

Osborne Russell
12-21-2015, 03:03 PM
. . . he needs to prove that it is his, and not stolen.

Who told you that?

Nicholas Carey
12-21-2015, 10:31 PM
Can you offer an explanation of why an officer caught on video operating outside the bounds of his authority has not caused any response from the town for which this cop works?

Well, he's a National Park Service Ranger, for starters. And the reason is simple. It's the same blind deference to the police across the board that lets virtually every cop involved in a use of force incident, fatal or not, no matter how unjustified, walk away scot free.


He wasn't tazed for parking violation.

He was tazed for failing to comply ( lie still) after biting the cop ( assaulting an officer)


The bite, if it actually occurred, came after the use of the taser. I rather suspect that in reality, the ranger scraped his knuckles on the pavement while trying to strangle the guy.

However, the victim was given a unlawful order and was under no obligation to comply with it. The ranger was out of bounds.

gilberj
12-22-2015, 01:02 AM
The cops actions were way out of orbit. First his job is to keep the peace. He managed to take a minor infraction and turn it into a violent crime. Again this is like the rape victim being responsible for the assault.
I may not have the whole story, but.. as I see it the man did not have to identify himself legally in that situation. If the story is correct the cop was way out of line. If we as citizens allow law enforcement officers to extend their authority without challenge we have ourselves to blame when they overstep.

Glen Longino
12-22-2015, 01:24 AM
I'm an injustice hater... I see you are not

Nobody recognizes you as the arbiter of justice, Phillip, except you!

Phillip Allen
12-22-2015, 04:10 AM
The cops actions were way out of orbit. First his job is to keep the peace. He managed to take a minor infraction and turn it into a violent crime. Again this is like the rape victim being responsible for the assault.
I may not have the whole story, but.. as I see it the man did not have to identify himself legally in that situation. If the story is correct the cop was way out of line. If we as citizens allow law enforcement officers to extend their authority without challenge we have ourselves to blame when they overstep.

thank you

as to Glen's post... I understand that cops and ex cops may not want interference when they dispense their brand of justice... rave on


Nobody recognizes you as the arbiter of justice, Phillip, except you!

S.V. Airlie
12-22-2015, 09:08 AM
Why don't you tell us the incident you've had with a cop to hate cops so much PA. It must be a doozy!

Mike J
12-22-2015, 09:10 AM
No, it doesn't indicate possible auto theft, but it does indicate an possible impairment of judgement and warrants investigation. Reasonable suspicion ranging from undiagnosed diabetes to drug use to mental illness is easily supported by the video. Given my training and experience I would have detained him until either I was convinced he was unimpaired, had him transported to a hospital with mental health facilities, or placed him under arrest until I could verify his identity.

Thank you Ian for the thread title and for your understanding of the big picture. Clearly this was handled poorly and corrective action should be taken. However l want to make clear that while better handling could have changed the encounter for the better, that doesn't mean it would have. My experience has shown me that officer deescalation is 80-90% effective in situations that I felt were headed for force escalation. Proper training takes into account that some people are going to fight but that you don't give up your professionalism when it happens.

As a former LEO these threads can sometimes try me. I'll explain: When I would get ready for work I had a ritual of sorts that I developed to mentally prepare for my shift. The goal was to take into work the most compassionate attitude I could muster and maintain it despite trying circumstances. I drew on my 40+ years as white man, my experiences as a father, a husband, and a son as well as my experiences stealing candy in gradeschool, eating from a food pantry, and driving on expired plates from being dirt poor. This put me in a frame of mind where I wasn't angry at people who were doing the best they could no matter how misinformed they were or biased in their world view. I struggle a bit now when I read strongly anti-police OR anti-public bias; go volunteer at a shelter or do a ride along on a hot summer Saturday night.

Mike

Phillip Allen
12-22-2015, 09:25 AM
Why don't you tell us the incident you've had with a cop to hate cops so much PA. It must be a doozy!

I've told you various times, I don't hate cops. that meme is just a childish attempt to shut me up

S.V. Airlie
12-22-2015, 09:28 AM
An impossibility! Didn't answer the question either!

that meme is just a childish attempt to shut me up

Phillip Allen
12-22-2015, 09:28 AM
No, it doesn't indicate possible auto theft, but it does indicate an possible impairment of judgement and warrants investigation. Reasonable suspicion ranging from undiagnosed diabetes to drug use to mental illness is easily supported by the video. Given my training and experience I would have detained him until either I was convinced he was unimpaired, had him transported to a hospital with mental health facilities, or placed him under arrest until I could verify his identity.

Thank you Ian for the thread title and for your understanding of the big picture. Clearly this was handled poorly and corrective action should be taken. However l want to make clear that while better handling could have changed the encounter for the better, that doesn't mean it would have. My experience has shown me that officer deescalation is 80-90% effective in situations that I felt were headed for force escalation. Proper training takes into account that some people are going to fight but that you don't give up your professionalism when it happens.

As a former LEO these threads can sometimes try me. I'll explain: When I would get ready for work I had a ritual of sorts that I developed to mentally prepare for my shift. The goal was to take into work the most compassionate attitude I could muster and maintain it despite trying circumstances. I drew on my 40+ years as white man, my experiences as a father, a husband, and a son as well as my experiences stealing candy in gradeschool, eating from a food pantry, and driving on expired plates from being dirt poor. This put me in a frame of mind where I wasn't angry at people who were doing the best they could no matter how misinformed they were or biased in their world view. I struggle a bit now when I read strongly anti-police OR anti-public bias; go volunteer at a shelter or do a ride along on a hot summer Saturday night.

Mike

I like your last paragraph... thank you

Phillip Allen
12-22-2015, 09:30 AM
An impossibility! Didn't answer the question either!

that meme is just a childish attempt to shut me up

go ahead... I do so love to not answer your demands... go ahead, Please! :)

S.V. Airlie
12-22-2015, 09:32 AM
IT wasn't a demand, it was a request. Do you want the necessary, required definitions now!