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Norman Bernstein
12-07-2015, 08:56 AM
A minor factoid I ran across this morning.... it's from the New York Times:


The death toll from jihadist terrorism on American soil since the Sept. 11 attacks -- 45 people -- is about the same as the 48 killed in terrorist attacks motivated by white supremacist and other right-wing extremist ideologies.... And both tolls are tiny compared with the tally of conventional murders, more than 200,000 over the same period.

Does anyone know of any left-wing terrorist attacks?

Too Little Time
12-07-2015, 09:03 AM
What makes Sept. 11th special enough that we should ignore deaths on that date? It skews the math enough to get the results one wants.

The left-wing stood by and watched 200,000 people die in Syria. (The right-wing seems to have stood by also.) Perhaps watching genocide and religious war does not count as terror.

TomZ
12-07-2015, 09:06 AM
A minor factoid I ran across this morning.... it's from the New York Times:

Does anyone know of any left-wing terrorist attacks?

OMG, and just moments later, the right wing is lumped in with White Supremacists and 'other extreamist ideologies', and compared to terrorists! unbelievable. And you're the cynical one?

Ian McColgin
12-07-2015, 09:11 AM
Can't think of any lefty attacks since Weather Underground days, when they mostly blew themselves up. The FBI had a murder campaign against the Black Panthers but it wasn't the other way around.

A lot of 60's rads were really all about democracy, win some lose some, and have leavened local and regional politics ever since. The rest became stock brokers. (Remember Jerry Rubin?)

slug
12-07-2015, 09:40 AM
Islamics are the most dangerous.

As David Cameron told Obama when Obama tried to airbrush islam out of the terror issue


“Barack, you said it and you’re right — every religion has its extremists,” Mr. Cameron said. “But we have to be frank that the biggest problem we have today is the Islamist extremist violence that has given birth to ISIL, to al-Shabab, to al-Nusra, al Qaeda and so many other groups.”

Mr. Cameron on Tuesday said Western governments must “root out the extremist preachers that are poisoning the minds of young Muslims in our countries.”

. “We’ve got to get it out of our schools, get it out of our prisons, get it out of our universities. I believe in freedom of speech, but freedom to hate is not the same thing.

Mr. Obama has repeatedly faced criticism at home for declining to single out Islamist-based terrorism as a particular threat and insists that all kinds of extremism pose dangers to U.S. interests and Western values.


Obama has no answer..............

Norman Bernstein
12-07-2015, 09:44 AM
Islamics are the most dangerous.

Statistically, SINCE 9/11, that doesn't appear to be true... white supremacists and other right wing extremists appear to be certainly as dangerous, and even a bit more.


Obama has no answer..............

Who has the answer? Any of the GOP candidates who are all beating the drums for all-out war? Are any of them advocating taxing Americans to pay for that war? How many of them have kids willing to be sacrificed for that war?

Keith Wilson
12-07-2015, 10:01 AM
white supremacists and other right wing extremists appear to be certainly as dangerous, and even a bit more.And neither of them are very dangerous at all - or we're doing a pretty good job of keeping them from doing much damage.

Last year some 16,000 people were murdered in the US. 610 died in boating accidents. 26 were killed by lightning. 19 Americans were killed by terrorists worldwide. Statistically, terrorism is simply not an important threat. Your risk of being killed by a terrorist is negligible. Why do we worry about it so much? That's precisely what terrorists want us to do.

John Smith
12-07-2015, 10:04 AM
What makes Sept. 11th special enough that we should ignore deaths on that date? It skews the math enough to get the results one wants.

The left-wing stood by and watched 200,000 people die in Syria. (The right-wing seems to have stood by also.) Perhaps watching genocide and religious war does not count as terror.

More people have died for breathing at ground zero than died in that attack. 9/11 attack took a few hours. Shock and Awe took many days. We killed who knows how many innocent people in our two pointless wars.

I think the point of the OP is that being killed in the US by a terrorist attack, is way down on the list of dangers.

Norman Bernstein
12-07-2015, 10:04 AM
And neither of them are very dangerous at all - or we're doing a pretty good job of keeping them from doing much damage.

Last year some 16,000 people were murdered in the US. 610 died in boating accidents. 26 were killed by lightning. 19 were killed by terrorists. Statistically, terrorism is simply not an important threat. Your risk of being killed by a terrorist is negligible. Why do we worry about it so much? That's precisely what terrorists want us to do.

I agree, 100%. It's part of the national psyche, that we go crazy when we lose 19 people to terrorists.... but nobody makes much of a big deal about 1000x as many being lost in a variety of other ways. When the threat of death by terrorism is lower than that of being struck by lightning, the logical and objective reaction shouldn't be to beat the drums for war.....

....but that is exactly what is happening.

As far as I can tell, EVERY GOP candidate for President is arguing for all out war in the Middle East.... and as far as I can tell, not one of them is arguing for taxing Americans to pay for it.

Dan McCosh
12-07-2015, 10:38 AM
A minor factoid I ran across this morning.... it's from the New York Times:



Does anyone know of any left-wing terrorist attacks? I guess you would have to get into another sophomoric debate over labels and ideology. Is anarchy extreme left-wing? If so does Timothy McVeigh count? Is the IRA left or right wing? Political assassinations--a form of terror, I guess--seem pretty evenly divided.

Keith Wilson
12-07-2015, 10:38 AM
It's part of the national psyche, that we go crazy when we lose 19 people to terrorists.... I'd say that the 'part of the national psyche' is the lizard brain - you poke it, it bites - mightily encouraged by one political faction. Anger and fear make people do stupid things - and vote in particular ways.

Too Little Time
12-07-2015, 10:38 AM
More people have died for breathing at ground zero than died in that attack. 9/11 attack took a few hours. Shock and Awe took many days. We killed who knows how many innocent people in our two pointless wars.

I think the point of the OP is that being killed in the US by a terrorist attack, is way down on the list of dangers.

Actually he was making a claim that there are no left-wing terrorists. And he did that in the context of misrepresentation of the 9/11 numbers. Misrepresented similar to what you just did.

I don't walk around worried about terrorists or gun owners. So on that point I agree with you that many people over estimate risk.

John of Phoenix
12-07-2015, 10:46 AM
As far as I can tell, EVERY GOP candidate for President is arguing for all out war in the Middle East....ISIS has succeeded where al Qaeda and bin Laden failed - they're getting us to start a worldwide religious war.

The president of Liberty University, a popular pilgrimage site for presidential candidates, urged students during the school’s convocation Friday to get their permits to carry concealed weapons.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/12/05/liberty-university-president-if-more-good-people-had-concealed-guns-we-could-end-those-muslims/

Spreading some of that 9mm Christian love.

LeeG
12-07-2015, 11:08 AM
More C&P for the terrists topic, ISIS is below the threshold of daily mayhem and dysfunction in the US but strangely enough that makes them even more threatening for those in the fear business.

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/12/on-the-farid-zakariya-newsie-today-susan-rice-explained-with-some-brevity-and-clarity-that-no-fly-zonessanctuary-areas-in-sy.html#comments

An equally important element in the active active fantasy life of the Obama Administration as well as most Republican and Democratic presidential aspirants is the notion of a regional ground combat force that would in their field of dreams go to Syria and Iraq and destroy the Islamic State. The truth is that such an army will never be.

The Gulfies (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc.) are core supporters of Sunni jihadi groups in Syria and Iraq. They may have washed their hands of the IS specter but the reason for doing that is the arrival in the Gulf of the idea that the petty princes on the Gulf are inevitably seen by IS as a collective abomination to be destroyed as soon as conveniently possible.
Even if the Gulfie group decided to accede to Obamanite wishes for them to fight IS on the big chess board of north Arabia they are impotent to do so. Their collection of foreign built military equipment is one of the largest static displays of military materiel in history. They are poorly trained, under-manned and commanded by sycophants of the princely (to include SA) houses, men for whom their wages are all they live for. To top off the list of the defects of the armed forces of the Gulfies they lack "the stones" for real war. They can be killers, but not fighters. Look at the mess they have made of their aggression in Yemen. Look at it!
Egypt. The Egyptian military is a large money making enterprise that is built to control internal political activity in Egypt itself. They do that well but have neither the taste nor an inclination to go fight IS in northern Arabia.
Iran. They DO have "the stones," but we reject their participation.
Jordan. The country's small but effective armed forces are fully committed to blocking both internal and external threats to the kingdom. IMO King Abdullah is not going to risk Islamist revolt at home while his men are engaged in Syria or Iraq.
Turkey. Basically on the Islamists side.
Iraq. What will be on the Sunni Arab side already is. There are Sunni Arab units in the Iraqi Army. They are largely worthless as combat power. There are tribal forces that the central government thinks of as enemies and refuses to arm.
When you add this all together you find that the only Sunnis seriously fighting the Islamists (IS, Nusra, etc.) are Kurds and the Sunni Arab soldiers and militia fighting on the side of the government in Syria. They and their Russian, Hizbullah, IRGC and sectarian and ethnic militia allies are alone and will remain alone. pl

Norman Bernstein
12-07-2015, 11:12 AM
More C&P for the terrists topic, ISIS is below the threshold of daily mayhem and dysfunction in the US but strangely enough that makes them even more threatening for those in the fear business.

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/12/on-the-farid-zakariya-newsie-today-susan-rice-explained-with-some-brevity-and-clarity-that-no-fly-zonessanctuary-areas-in-sy.html#comments

An equally important element in the active active fantasy life of the Obama Administration as well as most Republican and Democratic presidential aspirants is the notion of a regional ground combat force that would in their field of dreams go to Syria and Iraq and destroy the Islamic State. The truth is that such an army will never be.

The Gulfies (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc.) are core supporters of Sunni jihadi groups in Syria and Iraq. They may have washed their hands of the IS specter but the reason for doing that is the arrival in the Gulf of the idea that the petty princes on the Gulf are inevitably seen by IS as a collective abomination to be destroyed as soon as conveniently possible.
Even if the Gulfie group decided to accede to Obamanite wishes for them to fight IS on the big chess board of north Arabia they are impotent to do so. Their collection of foreign built military equipment is one of the largest static displays of military materiel in history. They are poorly trained, under-manned and commanded by sycophants of the princely (to include SA) houses, men for whom their wages are all they live for. To top off the list of the defects of the armed forces of the Gulfies they lack "the stones" for real war. They can be killers, but not fighters. Look at the mess they have made of their aggression in Yemen. Look at it!
Egypt. The Egyptian military is a large money making enterprise that is built to control internal political activity in Egypt itself. They do that well but have neither the taste nor an inclination to go fight IS in northern Arabia.
Iran. They DO have "the stones," but we reject their participation.
Jordan. The country's small but effective armed forces are fully committed to blocking both internal and external threats to the kingdom. IMO King Abdullah is not going to risk Islamist revolt at home while his men are engaged in Syria or Iraq.
Turkey. Basically on the Islamists side.
Iraq. What will be on the Sunni Arab side already is. There are Sunni Arab units in the Iraqi Army. They are largely worthless as combat power. There are tribal forces that the central government thinks of as enemies and refuses to arm.
When you add this all together you find that the only Sunnis seriously fighting the Islamists (IS, Nusra, etc.) are Kurds and the Sunni Arab soldiers and militia fighting on the side of the government in Syria. They and their Russian, Hizbullah, IRGC and sectarian and ethnic militia allies are alone and will remain alone. pl

+1 Y>

The Republicans bang the drums for full-blown war and refuse to acknowledge that there is no plausible end game.

Obama calls for a restrained response which does NOT involve a ground war... and he doesn't have an end game, either.

There is simply no scenario under which the fighting among seemingly countless warring parties will ever end.... which is why I say: humanitarian aid, accept refugees, and let the rest do what they're going to do, anyhow.

gilberj
12-07-2015, 11:50 AM
Left wing terrorism......China under Mao Tse Tung, Cuba when Castro took over, Various South and Central American revolutions....
People on the political left can be just as brutal as those on the right.
At this time in History we have a bigger problem with the extreme right

Jim Mahan
12-07-2015, 11:53 AM
Ted Cruz won't need an end game. If he becomes president he will carpet bomb IS and be home for supper.

Too Little Time
12-07-2015, 11:54 AM
There is simply no scenario under which the fighting among seemingly countless warring parties will ever end.

Wars end when all sides decide that fighting is not worth it or when one side accepts defeat. So there are scenarios. Many do not like either.



which is why I say: humanitarian aid and let the rest do what they're going to do, anyhow.

You have 2 conflicting goals. The "rest" are very happy to wipe out the group you want to give humanitarian aid to. Lacking that they are happy to keep the country and have you maintain prison camps for those who are displaced.

Or maybe you are in favor of support for the "rest."

LeeG
12-07-2015, 12:08 PM
Speaking of threats


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/michele-fiore-syrian-refugees-shoot-em

Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore (R) last month dismissed a statement from Nevada Republicans calling for the state to bar refugees from Syria, and said that she is prepared to travel to Paris to shoot Syrian refugees herself.

During her weekly show on Las Vegas radio station KWDN, Fiore discussed why she did not sign onto the statement from Republican members of the state assembly opposing resettling Syrian refugees in Nevada. Fiore recounted a conversation with Nevada GOP political consultant Chuck Muth, who asked her why she didn't sign onto the statement.

"What--are you kidding me? I’m about to fly to Paris and shoot ‘em in the head myself!" Fiore said she told Muth when asked why she didn't join the statement on Syrian refugees.

"I am not OK with Syrian refugees. I’m not OK with terrorists. I’m OK with putting them down, blacking them out, just put a piece of brass in their ocular cavity and end their miserable life. I'm good with that," she continued.

Sky Blue
12-07-2015, 12:17 PM
which threat is worse

Globally? Or just in the US?

John of Phoenix
12-07-2015, 12:32 PM
Speaking of threats


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/michele-fiore-syrian-refugees-shoot-em

Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore (R) last month dismissed a statement from Nevada Republicans calling for the state to bar refugees from Syria, and said that she is prepared to travel to Paris to shoot Syrian refugees herself.

During her weekly show on Las Vegas radio station KWDN, Fiore discussed why she did not sign onto the statement from Republican members of the state assembly opposing resettling Syrian refugees in Nevada. Fiore recounted a conversation with Nevada GOP political consultant Chuck Muth, who asked her why she didn't sign onto the statement.

"What--are you kidding me? I’m about to fly to Paris and shoot ‘em in the head myself!" Fiore said she told Muth when asked why she didn't join the statement on Syrian refugees.

"I am not OK with Syrian refugees. I’m not OK with terrorists. I’m OK with putting them down, blacking them out, just put a piece of brass in their ocular cavity and end their miserable life. I'm good with that," she continued.Murdering refugees. There's an "end plan" for reds to support.

Keith Wilson
12-07-2015, 01:11 PM
Nancy Le Tourneau is Ed Kilgore's replacement at Washington Monthly. I'm not 100% convinced she's right, but she raises some very good points, and the linked articles are worth reading too.


American Trauma
Nancy LeTourneu

An awful lot of ink has been spilled trying to understand the Trump, Carson, Cruz phenomena going on right now in the Republican primary. But there’s a reason why it all sounds pretty reminiscent of the same attempts 5-6 years ago to understand the development of the Tea Party. That’s because both are animated by the same group of people.

The question becomes, what spurred the breakout of this angry extremist activism on the right? I’m going to step back just a bit and look at our recent history to suggest that we’ve experienced some major trauma in this country over the last 15 years. And the reaction to that trauma has been particularly dysfunctional for a certain segment of the population.

As a prelude to all that, take a look at what Jessica Stern wrote in an article titled: How Terror Hardens Us. (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/06/opinion/sunday/how-terror-hardens-us.html?&_r=0)

"As I have written elsewhere, the experimental psychologists Tom Pyszczynski, Sheldon Solomon and Jeff Greenberg are known for having developed what’s called terror management theory, which suggests that much of human behavior is motivated by an unconscious terror of death. What saves us from this terror is culture. Cultures provide ways to view the world that “solve” the existential crisis engendered by the awareness of death.

The theory says that when people are reminded of their mortality — especially if the reminder doesn’t register consciously, as happens after a brutal act of terror — they will more readily enforce their cultural worldviews. If our cultural worldview is xenophobic, nationalistic or moralistic, we are prone to become more so. Hundreds of experiments, all over the world, have confirmed these findings."

I would expand that “terror management theory” and suggest that any trauma leads us to enforce our own world views. In the last 15 years, we’ve experienced two traumatic events and one slowly developing change that causes trauma for people on the right.

The Death of Invulnerability

The attacks on 9/11 punctured America’s feeling of invulnerability. But instead of dealing with that, our leadership sought revenge and wound up invading a country that wasn’t involved. We became mired in an unnecessary war and saw our country basically abandon the Geneva Conventions in an attempt to justify the use of torture and the establishment of a prison at Guantanamo Bay. Not only did those things fail to address our sense of vulnerability, they made the whole situation in the Middle East worse…much worse. Those with a xenophobic nationalistic world view now find themselves in the ever-reinforcing feedback loop of calling for more actions that result in further trauma, which hardens their xenophobic nationalism.

The Death of the Dream

In 2008/09, the American economy suffered the greatest recession since the Great Depression in the 1930’s. People lost their livelihoods and their homes. But as Paul Krugman wrote (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/21/white.persecution/) in reaction to a study on the growing mortality of white people, they lost something on a much deeper level.

"In a recent interview Mr. Deaton suggested that middle-aged whites have “lost the narrative of their lives.” That is, their economic setbacks have hit hard because they expected better. Or to put it a bit differently, we’re looking at people who were raised to believe in the American Dream, and are coping badly with its failure to come true."

Here is how John Blake (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/21/white.persecution/) described that from an interview with Tim Wise.

"Wise says the recession hit blue-collar, white Americans hard, financially and psychologically.
Many white Americans have lived under the assumption that if they worked hard, they would be rewarded. Now more white Americans are sharing unemployment lines with “those people” — black and brown, Wise says. “For the first time since the Great Depression, white Americans have been confronted with a level of economic insecurity that we’re not used to,” he says. “It’s not so new for black and brown folks, but for white folks, this is something we haven’t seen since the Depression.”"

The Death of Normal

In the midst of all that, this country elected our first African American president…and then re-elected him. That is what led David Simon (http://davidsimon.com/inevitabilities-and-barack-obama/) to declare the “death of normal.”

"This election marks a moment in which the racial and social hierarchy of America is upended forever. No longer will it mean more politically to be a white male than to be anything else. Evolve, or don’t. Swallow your resentments, or don’t. But the votes are going to be counted, more of them with each election . . . Regardless of what happens with his second term, Barack Obama’s great victory has already been won: We are all the other now, in some sense. Special interests? That term has no more meaning in the New America. We are all — all of us, every last American, even the whitest of white guys — special interests. And now, normal isn’t white or straight or Christian. There is no normal. That word, too, means less with every moment. And those who continue to argue for such retrograde notions as a political reality will become less germane and more ridiculous with every passing year."

Any one of these traumas might have led to more extremist views by those who are unprepared to deal with them. But together, they are taking a terrible toll on those who refuse to adapt to the reality in which we are currently living.

I don’t say any of this to excuse the people who are drilling down into extremism as a way to cope with trauma. We need merely to understand it as best we can in order to find ways to both challenge and mitigate the effects. The worst possible reaction to someone who is acting out as a result of trauma is to panic.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2015, 01:19 PM
Speaking of threats


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/michele-fiore-syrian-refugees-shoot-em

Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore (R) last month dismissed a statement from Nevada Republicans calling for the state to bar refugees from Syria, and said that she is prepared to travel to Paris to shoot Syrian refugees herself.

During her weekly show on Las Vegas radio station KWDN, Fiore discussed why she did not sign onto the statement from Republican members of the state assembly opposing resettling Syrian refugees in Nevada. Fiore recounted a conversation with Nevada GOP political consultant Chuck Muth, who asked her why she didn't sign onto the statement.

"What--are you kidding me? I’m about to fly to Paris and shoot ‘em in the head myself!" Fiore said she told Muth when asked why she didn't join the statement on Syrian refugees.

"I am not OK with Syrian refugees. I’m not OK with terrorists. I’m OK with putting them down, blacking them out, just put a piece of brass in their ocular cavity and end their miserable life. I'm good with that," she continued.

She will probably be re-elected too.

bobbys
12-07-2015, 02:08 PM
A minor factoid I ran across this morning.... it's from the New York Times:



Does anyone know of any left-wing terrorist attacks?.

A Moral Equivalency.

The Poster seeks to draw comparisons between different events to make a point one is just as bad as another or this event is not as bad as the recent one..

A logical Fallacy.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2015, 02:10 PM
Yup, and apparently it does.