Riggers Knife Recommended by Cleek

[NormMessinger]

Long long ago in a thread far far away I seem to reacall one Robert Q. Cleek called our attention to a military surplus riggers knife sold by Atlanta Cutlery for <$6.00 each and cheeper by the five or more. Such a deal.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da30b3127cce9665354906a60000003610

I got some. Now what I can't figure out is what the heck is the bifricated blade for. It does not work worth a hoot as a can opener.

The last batch of five I got included two with broken springs. That lead to the thought that one could take them apart and make one good knife. About that time son Lynn arrived on the scene and he figured as long as we were at it he could replace the scales with something like manzanita burl, a project still in progress. The knife blade takes a great edge and holds it well.

Anyway I post this in this section since Bob is more likely to see it, I think. Anyway, I'd appreciate any thoughts as to what said blade is for, hell, even if you don't have the foggiest idea.

[J. Dillon]

Norm,

What happens when you puncture a hole with the blade in question , run it in and pry up at time same time as pushing it ? :confused:

JD

[Todd Bradshaw]

Don't know for sure, but it might make a good blade for cutting long pieces of fabric if one was making canvas sails...????

[Wild Wassa]

Hi Norm, On my Ronstan tool I have a jam cleat, with the same shaped aperture.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid59/p0110a74905c01f2d145f1c07b447aa3a/fc5a78e0.jpg

Todd's idea makes sense.

Warren.

[ 04-12-2003, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[R.I.Singer30]

If I'm not mistaken it's used as a utility wrench. Force it onto a standard,metric,wentworth or gronicle bolt and it will hold it while you turn the other side with an adjustable wrench or screwdriver. Dan L.

[Ron Williamson]

Is the inside of the V bevelled as though meant to take an edge?If so,I'm with Todd.
R

[Donn]

cable or wire stripper?

[Mrleft8]

You guys are SO silly! Don't you know that's the "Lobster" blade?
When giant lobsters come to attack you, and drag you to their lobster lairs, you brandish the "Lobster" blade. The lobster sees the blade, and thinks you are a member of the "Lobster liberation freedom front", and leaves you alone. (On a really GOOD day, he'll leave you with some of his smaller associates to help you on your mission of lobster liberation)

[Scott Rosen]

I have a couple of those knives. They are Royal Navy surplus from WWII.

I always figured that blade was a combination shackle key and can opener.

[doorstop]

Gronicle stretcher/scratcher for bifurcated gronicles......

[NormMessinger]

I think Mr. Left is the closest so far.

The pointed fork is beveled to a blunt edge but it would take quite a bit of effort to sharpen it. Lynn says it does not work on a round can as JD suggests but I wonder what sort of tins the troops, both land and sea, these would have been issued to might have needed to open.

[Donn]

It's a can opener. Link. (http://www.rubylane.com/ni/shops/goodoletom/iteml/11230201)

[Paul Scheuer]

Not sure I'd believe anyone who called the pointed blade an "awl or punch". I've got a similar rigger's knife with the same shaped slot except mine has a closed end, forming a tear-drop shaped opening. I have used it to turn shackle pins.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Donn, I think that guy's description is as whacky as his price. It's not shaped right to open cans. I still think it's for slitting cloth or stripping wire. The only sharp part seems to be in the corner, which is all that would be needed for those jobs. It's also not a shackle key, which would have no sharp edges, a closed loop and look like this:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid59/pf27f699182eafef50985caaf04725820/fc59f4f1.jpg

[Bayboat]

None of the knives pictured and described here are true riggers' knives. They are often carried by yachtsmen and small boat sailors for cutting line, splicing small line, and opening or tightening shackle pins. The small folding spike is inadequate for most rigging work. A true riggers' knife is non-folding, has a thick handle, a single heavy sheeps-foot blade, and the back of the blade is thick so it can take blows with a mallet or hammer in cutting line. The spike that often accompanies it is separate, in its own pocket of the sheath.

[ 04-12-2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Bayboat ]

[Dave Fleming]

Ayup Bayboat.
My 50 year old Kaybar SS knife is like that description.
Blade is 4 or so inches long and approx 5/16ths inches at back. I sharpen it with a Mill Smooth file and have a hickory priest type mallet to strike it through lines and hawsers.
Spike, mallet and knife fit snugly in home made chrome tanned leather sheath. Each has eye or small shackle for use with a lanyard and snaphook when in use on deck or aloft*.
I have one of those Case folding knives with spike but much preferred the Kaybar.

*Geeze me aloft? Not anymore, sigh...

[ 04-12-2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[NormMessinger]

Holy Smokes, Donn. Atlanta Cutlery would sell 40 of them suckers for $180, though they would be marked differently. The bale on mine is copper and the knife blade is marked Spencer 1976 on it's base. A fellow that would try to charge $180 for that knife wouldn't know a can opener from a spay blade.

Now that I look at the blade closer I it is clear Todd and others described it's use correctly. It didn't look sharp enough to be a ripper/slitter but right down at the end of the notch it is indeed sharp enough to do the job. And besides, I came by the following discription of the use of the blade: Re: the funny appurtenance on your knife; go to your wife and ask to look in her sewing kit for a "seam ripper". Notice its similar form to the blade on your knife. Now think about how heavy canvas seams are on sails, hatch tarps, lifeboat covers, etc. What you have is the Arnold Schwartzenegger of seam rippers. The big, curved bottom (or "foot") is rounded to slide easily along the fabric inside the rolled seam (like the outer seams on a pair of Levi's), the bottom of the cleft in the blade (the "throat") is sharpened using a rat-tail file or diamond stone and is sharp to cut the threads as the tool passes down the seam, and the wee rectangular guide blade acts as the visible guide to locate the cutting blade which is out of sight inside the seam.

Thanks all.

[htom]

Seam ripper, as you suggest, or seatbelt cutter, but why would a sailer need that (cutting a man-harness, I suppose.)

[Scott Rosen]

$180 !!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I got two for eleven bucks from Atlanta Cutlery. Mine still had the original sailors' serial numbers in permanent paint.

[Bob Cleek]

Quite an interesting discussion. I never looked at the forked blade all that closely, assuming it was an old fashioned can opener, which I never had any use for. I just took another look and, yep, it sure looks like a seam ripper. Mine has an edge at the crotch, exactly like a small seam ripper you'd use on sewing light stuff. If I had to attack a can of sardines in a lifeboat, though, I suppose I'd go for this blade first.

These knives are really curios, more than anything else. Decent old time steel, which will take and hold a good edge, but they need a lot of cleaning and work to loosen them up. As noted, this is a "yachtsman's" knife, not a true rigger's knife. Sort of the "Leatherman" of its day. (Now that the Wooden Boat Shop is defunct, the only place I know you can buy real rigging knives and marlinspikes is the Toplicht catalog out of Germany.)

The knife in question was manufactured by the bazillions during the war and issued to British seamen. Doubtful many had much use for it. I expect some were made by the Indian blade manufacturers that did a lot of work for the British military. The knives are interesting in that they are crude. Obviously, there's an inordinate amount of handwork on them. The scales are horn, water buffalo perhaps. If you sand them smooth and polish them up, they look pretty decent. Mine were still in the cosmoline when I got them and the original finish was pretty rough. The edges of the scales weren't rounded, and so on.

The one offered for $180 is amazing! LOL There IS a sucker born every minute if he sells it for that! I love these on line auctioneers... so often they have NO idea what they are talking about. These aren't even close to the much nicer Case-made US issue knives, which are now made exclusively for the USN by Camillus and can be bought in most chandleries. The "broad arrow" on his (there's no makings on mine) is obviously the standard hallmark for British military issue. Anybody who deals in militaria sure ought to know that.

I guess you COULD use the ripper for a shackle wrench, but why would you if you had the marlinspike, which you stick into the little hole in the pin end? I suppose it could be handy if you ran into one of those new fangled shackles witihout a hole in the end of the pin. Bottom line, if a tool does the job well, it's the tool for the job.

[ 04-13-2003, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[Donn]

Just to keep the waters muddy (and the seam ripper sounds good to me, too), here's another listing that calls it a can opener, and correctly names the marlinspike.

http://www.bcbin.com/store/catalog/MF303.jpg
and it's only Pounds 5.31!

link (http://www.bcbin.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idproduct=42)

[NormMessinger]

These guys that call the blade a can opener are stupid or ignorant (as I was, take yer pick) or have never seen a good old-fashioned cheap boy scout knife (as I have but managed to ignore).

Man! Enlightenment makes me smug.

[Donn]

The more I search, the more I find:

http://store5.yimg.com/I/ancientivories_1733_96683

"These knives were actually used by British SEALs during World War II! They have been in storage since 1945. We polish them up and put on new Fossil Ivory scales.(It takes a lot of ivory!) They are an instant collectors' item, and generate a tremendous amount of interest. We completely refurbish these knives.(There may be some "dings" left, so don't expect each to be absolutely pristine.) The blades are 1940's vintage stainless. In addition to the large 3 7/8 inch blade, there is a beautifully curved marlinspike, and a 2 3/4 inch can opener that doubles as a very handy shackle-pin-turner for when your fingers just can't do it!"

link (http://ancientivories.com/britishknife.html)
= = = = =

http://secure.sovietski.com/isroot/sovietski/ImagesOnline/catalog/200993.jpg

"..Features a Marlinspike for untying even the most stubborn knots, a flat-edged blade for chopping through snagged rope, a bottle opener, can opener and lanyard loop..."

link (http://www.foximas.com/russian/israeli-gunners-quadrant.htm)

= = = = =

"Pioneer Army Issue Knife

A basic old fashioned knife. The sort your grandfather had in his pocket. A simple handle carrying a sharp, no nonsense blade, a bottle/can opener and a Marlinspike, or tool for taking stones out of horse’s hooves. The end of the handle has a screwdriver blade and the other end a lanyard loop. Not a cheap knife at £19.95 but very useful and about the most basic multi-tool you will find. The can opener is very effective and in a race against a domestic type can opener was quicker every time."

link (http://users.outdoor-pursuits.com/7thclaytonwestscouts/cw/cwscouts/gadgets.htm)

[Bayboat]

It does take a while to find a good true rigger's knife these days. I have an ancient Ka-bar like Dave F. mentions, but they have not been made for years. Currey of England makes a knife that has some of the features, but it is light and rather flimsy, with a blade that wouldn't take much hammering. There are several custom knife makers in the U.S. that will do one to your specifications, and that is probably the best route to take if you want a high-grade knife. At Ben Fuller's suggestion I settled on Mudd Sharrigan of Wiscasset, Maine, and he sent me a hand-made beauty with a laminated carbon steel blade.

[Donn]

Wooden Boat Foundation (http://www.woodenboat.org/store/folder.asp?f=61) carries two different Currey sets.

[NormMessinger]

I hear ya, Donn. Several web pages describe the blade as a can opener.

It'll take a better man than I to figure out how to make them work well as such. All I can say from my efforts is they are piss poor can openers. I guess that is the compromise when a can opener is disguised as a seam ripper.

[Donn]

The single best portable can opener, IMHO, is the trusty P38. I have a half-dozen of the old steel versions, and they are superb tools. Standard equipment on both boats, in the car and truck, and one, in a shrink-tube 'holster' on my key chain.

http://www.olive-drab.com/images/p38_opener.gif

[J. Dillon]

You're absolutely right Donn. I was gonna post a image of mine. I've been carring it for over 50 years on a key ring. I'm gonna have to retire it as it's hole is wearing close to the edge. I'd hate to lose it now. Back when I got it they came with "C rations". I guess the C was for cans.

JD

[Oyvind Snibsoer]

About that seam-ripper;
weren't a lot of navy "consumables" sewed into canvas packing in those days, this being sometime before shrink-wrap plastic? That could explain why the average sailor would need something that could quickly open these packages without destroying the canvas, since it was probably reused if possible.

[R.I.Singer30]

I preder my P38 over our electric.I guess a seam ripper it is.Though the ripping tool for canvas and cloth makes sense too. I've done my own upholstery work and found using scissors is very tiring for long cuts,but if you hold the scissors partially open and pull the fabric while you push the scissors the fabric rips with the grain(?) in a straight line .

[TomRobb]

If C-rats are for cans, what are K-rats?

[Donn]

"K Rations" are named for their developer, Ancel Benjamin Keys.

[Donn]

And, the C in "C Rations" stands for combat...Ration, Combat, Individual

[Donn]

The next step, after C-Rats, were "Long Rats" slang for Long Range Patrol Packs, a dehydrated food package developed for LRRP's, Long Range Reconaissance Patrols.

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

We called the p38 a John Wayne when I was in the Navy.

[tjs]

Check commercial fishing supply stores for knife with leather slab handles in a leather sheath with a pocket for the included spike. Trawl net folks use them to construct nets. The last one I bought was from Fishermans wharf in San Francisco. This was a while ago so the store may no longer be there.