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WszystekPoTrochu
11-26-2015, 09:35 PM
Shocking and unimaginable, yet happening on daily basis

Greeks are forced to exhume their dead after only three years, and even those who take extra efforts will most likely end up in a bone pit mass grave after around a decade. (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34920068)

WX
11-26-2015, 09:51 PM
I guess the dead don't need real estate.

The Bigfella
11-26-2015, 10:29 PM
Pffft. Ten bucks worth of natural gas... and you're ash. No sympathy for 'em. Land's scarce.

Ian McColgin
11-26-2015, 11:16 PM
I'm with Ian the Greater on this one. It's less that $10 of gas even by New England's high prices. Cremation uses far less in the way of energy resources than a casket and embalming and if you think that little is too much, go with resomatiion.

ShagRock
11-26-2015, 11:33 PM
Cremation uses far less in the way of energy resources than a casket and embalming and if you think that little is too much, go with resomatiion.

You could nail one together from wood you cut and dig the grave by hand.

hokiefan
11-26-2015, 11:51 PM
Cremate me and throw my ashes into the nearest river. They'll end up in the ocean in time where I would want to be.

Cheers,

Bobby

Ian McColgin
11-27-2015, 12:07 AM
You could make a coffin. Or not bother and just bury, which is very ecological. Plant a tree over and all's good. But a lot of jurisdictions have laws against just that. There are even unenforceable laws and ordinances against scattering ashes.

Personally I view grave yards with the same loathing as I view golf courses and over-fertilized lawns - horrible anti-ecological land use. But everyone needs to deal with the laws of their own land. Dad really wanted a 'sky burial' - expose the corpse on an elevated rack and let the carrion eaters spread him about. But that wasn't going to happen in Connecticut so we cremated him and Mom, who died a week later, mixed their ashes, and spread them around their fox hunting territory and favorite sailing waters.

ShagRock
11-27-2015, 12:28 AM
You could make a coffin. Or not bother and just bury, which is very ecological. Plant a tree over and all's good. But a lot of jurisdictions have laws against just that. There are even unenforceable laws and ordinances against scattering ashes. Personally I view grave yards with the same loathing as I view golf courses and over-fertilized lawns - horrible anti-ecological land use. But everyone needs to deal with the laws of their own land. Dad really wanted a 'sky burial' - expose the corpse on an elevated rack and let the carrion eaters spread him about. But that wasn't going to happen in Connecticut so we cremated him and Mom, who died a week later, mixed their ashes, and spread them around their fox hunting territory and favorite sailing waters.

Sure, I respect what you did and that's your personal choice. However, to dismiss graveyards that have vast historical significance for young students of history and compare them to mere golf courses is rather a silly-minded view.

Ian McColgin
11-27-2015, 12:48 AM
Perhaps I'm a bit overbroad or maybe it's the residual effect of reading Jessica Mitford while in my teens. I grew up in a church built in 1729 and there'd not been room for any new graves in over a century. So even as a child I got it that there's not 2'x6' available for everyone and I saw the graveyards in NYC where they stood them up to save space. I've also been moved deeply by the grave fields around some battle grounds.

But the fact is we really have no natural right to a bit of sod even while we're alive and can at least be stewards, much less when we're dead and useless.

ron ll
11-27-2015, 12:53 AM
I'm thinking of starting a drone ash spreading service.

ShagRock
11-27-2015, 01:06 AM
But the fact is we really have no natural right to a bit of sod even while we're alive and can at least be stewards, much less when we're dead and useless.

That's not a fact; that's your opinion. And I disagree. We have every natural 'human' right to the wee bit of sod we have. That's why I support aboriginal lands claims. I also support maintaining the wee bit of sod that contains the remains of long lost sailors and long gone planters and their families on rocky out-cliffs of the Newfoundland coast; and the graves of the natives who were there before them.

skaraborgcraft
11-27-2015, 01:56 AM
Its a religion thing. They dont believe in destroying the body as it wont be able to be ressurected on the second coming. Apparently the head of the Church says he knows nothing about this digging up stuff!

ShagRock
11-27-2015, 02:36 AM
Apparently the head of the Church says he knows nothing about this digging up stuff!

Grave robber.

wizbang 13
11-27-2015, 02:54 AM
Once your photo has been taken, you have no more soul anyway.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8343/8247625343_96704c7c71_c_d.jpg

WszystekPoTrochu
11-27-2015, 04:34 AM
I think we can all agree that after death, the body is pretty much a soulless object. Yet, not disposing of it in a certain way is normally penalized, and epidemiological concerns are not the only reason. You can't show how jihadists decorate fences with christian heads in Syria, You can't keep grandma close by hanging her stufed head above the fireplace. Even though being a soulless object, the corpse is to be treated respectfully, as it reflects respect towards the person it used to contain and humans in general. I am absolutely ok with sacrificing some extra space and funds for the sake of that respect.
Three years is a dramatically short period, far shorter than close family members need to come to terms with the loss.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-27-2015, 04:39 AM
This is about cultural norms - such practices are only shocking if the idea is new to you, and are very far from unimaginable.


Google parsi vulture.

skuthorp
11-27-2015, 06:50 AM
Well, how about some of those abandoned fall out shelters?
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tapholov/pages/mummies.htm

Rum_Pirate
11-27-2015, 07:00 AM
http://eternalreefs.com


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtg-IMdYUfo

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-27-2015, 07:17 AM
I wish I had a picture of my favourite road sign; it is in Hong Kong and it reads:

"TO PERMANENT CEMETERY"

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-27-2015, 09:18 AM
Statement of the bleeding obvious.

Members of the public enter at their own risk
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DougReid/Cemetry.jpg~original

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-27-2015, 09:23 AM
Pffft. Ten bucks worth of natural gas... and you're ash. No sympathy for 'em. Land's scarce.

The new tradition in Canada seems to be burn me, then have a celebration of life later. No service, no chapel, no visitation. I'm good with that. I don't even need the celebration of life, but if Nancy wants a few folks over to the house, I'm ok with that.

Norman Bernstein
11-27-2015, 09:29 AM
Despite being about as non-religious as they come, there is something about cemeteries that appeals to me. I have often stopped, while driving, at an old cemetery, just to walk amidst the gravestones and try to imagine, from the little bit of information contained on them, what the lives of these deceased were like....

...and when it comes to my own ancestors, it's more intense, for me. My trip to NJ last weekend was primarily to visit the graves of my paternal and maternal grandparents, located in cemeteries in Staten Island, NY, and Elizabeth, NJ. The paternal grandparents are in a large, ancient Jewish cemetery, which has no perpetual care, so the graves are in bad shape... the maternal grandparents are in an equally ancient cemetery close to Newark Airport, which fortunately is in better shape.

I don't know what compels me to go.... I certainly don't stand over the graves and recite the Kaddish... but for whatever reason, it's like a connection to these people.

If I have a belief, then it's this: no one is truly gone, as long as there is someone alive who remembers them.

Anyhow, my epitaph ought to be "Here lies an atheist; all dressed up, and no place to go" :)

George Jung
11-27-2015, 09:50 AM
http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M3fe4f65d3636abb5337f209301e3a698o0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0

This is a 'neat' cematary in Lincoln - it's darn near pastoral.

Too Little Time
11-27-2015, 09:58 AM
However one treats the dead, it is done for the benefit of the living.

I am willing to allow anyone to do what they want with the dead.

ron ll
11-27-2015, 10:27 AM
K. has always been fascinated by old cemeteries, the older the better. Of course American graves are relatively recent. So when traveling in rural France a few years back, she was looking forward to seeing some really old cemeteries. She was confused to discover the old rural churchyard graveyards weren't as old as she expected. We were eventually told that at one point in French history most church graveyards were dug up and the bones transported to the catacombs under Paris.

Now i I hasten to add I am not up on this history nor the accuracy of my understanding of this. Maybe some European history buffs can fill in some details.

Breakaway
11-27-2015, 10:30 AM
I believe in honoring the dead at death and in celebrating their life then--and thereafter. For me, it has proven to be the easiest way to move on after the loss of those I have loved, But, even though most of the generation before me is buried just a few miles away,in the national cemetery ( they being veterans one-and-all of either WWII, Korea or Viet Nam) I very rarely go there and visit the graves. I do think of them often, though.

Kevin

Norman Bernstein
11-27-2015, 10:33 AM
This is a 'neat' cematary in Lincoln - it's darn near pastoral.

You should see the Baron Hirsch cemetery in Staten Island. Over 100 years old, it's certainly in the Jewish immigrant style, with graves side-by-side, virtually touching one another, and basically no room between rows.

Turn-of-the century immigrant Jews joined burial societies, in which the members paid a weekly or monthly fee to insure that they would have a place to be buried when they died. They were, of course, desperately poor, but considered a grave to be an important thing. The burial societies contracted with the cemetery to reserve a defined area of ground, and they erected gates and fences to mark the site. My paternal grandparents, for example, are buried in the 'Hlusker Society' plot, because they came from an area of Russia (now Belarus) which included the city of Hlusk. When my grandmother passed away in 1979, there was a spot for her.... her husband, who died in 1936, is in there too, but not near her... they didn't reserve side-by-side graves for spouses, mostly because few couples in that era died temporally close to one another, since things like heart disease and infectious diseases killed many of them long before what might be considered their time. For example, my grandfather died of a heart attack at age 51, in 1936... but his wife died in her sleep, of old age (she was 90) in 1979.

They are still burying people in Baron Hirsch, but many of the new graves are of Russian Jews, recent immigrants... and the gravestone style is quite different; many of the stones are black polished granite, with photographs of the deceased etched into the face of the stone.

Unfortunately, few people pay for 'eternal care', and the cemetery is a mix of a small number of well-maintained graves, but mostly graves that are not maintained. In the summertime, weeds and trees overgrow the un-maintained graves, and there is a great deal of poison ivy (I found that out, the hard way). There are also quite a few gravestones knocked over... possibly by vandals, but more likely due to frost heaves.

In the Jewish tradition, I like to leave a rock on my grandmother's gravestone when I visit... it's a symbol that a mourner was there. When I'm gone, there will be no one to visit.

Steamboat
11-27-2015, 10:48 AM
Been done in Paris for centuries, "What are the burial practices in Paris cemeteries? Like anywhere else in France, people are buried in coffins which are placed in family or individual graves. Plots can be bought in perpetuity, for 50, 30 or 10 years, the latter being the least expensive option. Even in the case of mausoleums and chapels, coffins are most of the time below ground. As in the rest of the world, cremation is more and more popular; people can either keep the urn at home, scatter the ashes or buy a niche in a columbarium.What happens to all the remains from the abandoned gravesites? Abandoned remains are boxed, tagged and moved to Aux Morts ossuary, in Père-Lachaise cemetery." Quoted from http://www.pariscemeteries.com/questions-1/.

Of interest see: http://www.catacombes.paris.fr/en/homepage-catacombs-official-website

CWSmith
11-27-2015, 11:13 AM
However one treats the dead, it is done for the benefit of the living.

I drove past a cemetery yesterday and all the "new" graves of the past 10 to 20 years had flowers. The old graves did not. They are forgotten. Sad, but that's the way of it.

Personally, I would rather not take up space that children could use to play ball. Cremate me and scatter the ashes, plant them under rose bushes, do whatever you want but don't take land from the living.

George Jung
11-27-2015, 11:36 AM
'natural planting' sounds right, to me - but would cut into the funerary business big time - ergo, the laws. Embalming seems barbaric - and to what end? Spillage into the groundwater is nasty.

Planted, with a tree - makes sense.

bobbys
11-27-2015, 11:51 AM
Grandfather Peter was a terrible husband, a real life gangster, (protection) he said., Like most I have known he was off a bit in the head, He left grandma for months at a time, never would give her any money beat up everybody.

He was some sort of Dutch reformed while granny was a Catholic..

Granny bought her a grave site in the Catholic cemetery. But not one for Peter.

She said till death do us part then it's all over you bum.

She was true to her word and was buried there .

He went to the gravesite and cried and moaned.

My dad told him stay away she does not want you there you bum , you shouda be good when you wuz married to her..

Sure enough when he died he was buried somewhere else, The 2 of them apart for eternity .

I know it's a romantic story!

.

Glen Longino
11-27-2015, 12:13 PM
Grandfather Peter was a terrible husband, a real life gangster, (protection) he said., Like most I have known he was off a bit in the head, He left grandma for months at a time, never would give her any money beat up everybody.

He was some sort of Dutch reformed while granny was a Catholic..

Granny bought her a grave site in the Catholic cemetery. But not one for Peter.

She said till death do us part then it's all over you bum.

She was true to her word and was buried there .

He went to the gravesite and cried and moaned.

My dad told him stay away she does not want you there you bum , you shouda be good when you wuz married to her..

Sure enough when he died he was buried somewhere else, The 2 of them apart for eternity .

I know it's a romantic story!

.

:):)Dangit, Joisey Boy, occasionally you do come up with a fine post!:)

leikec
11-27-2015, 12:38 PM
I just visited a cemetery near Coldwater, MI where several of my ancestors are buried. I found most of the markers, but a few of the oldest grave sites are lost.
The visit meant a lot--I agree with Norman completely on this one.

I purposely chose a burial site for my wife that was at the far edge of the cemetery property, near a well used bicycle
trail. It gives me some small measure of comfort to know the bike trail is nearby, and if it is stupid for me to feel this way then I'll live with the displeasure of those who feel differently.

Jeff C

CWSmith
11-27-2015, 12:48 PM
I purposely chose a burial site for my wife that was at the far edge of the cemetery property, near a well used bicycle
trail. It gives me some small measure of comfort to know the bike trail is nearby, and if it is stupid for me to feel this way then I'll live with the displeasure of those who feel differently.

Jeff C

It sounds lovely. My opposition to burial is for me alone. I'm would not force it on anyone else.

David G
11-27-2015, 01:11 PM
Once your photo has been taken, you have no more soul anyway.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8343/8247625343_96704c7c71_c_d.jpg

Assuming you had a soul at that point anyway... and hadn't given it over to the voodoo teachings of some DebilBoat jockey. <G>

Chris Smith porter maine
11-27-2015, 01:18 PM
In Portland they have Evergreen it was built to be both a cemetery and a park, it is still a pretty popular picnic spot as it is on a bus route, the chapel is also often used for weddings. Diana's family has there own cemetery on land they own, which I guess is pretty easy to do and common up here.

http://www.friendsofevergreen.org/

TomF
11-27-2015, 02:37 PM
What matters to me is that whatever happens to my body when I'm done with it helps my surviving family and friends sort their feelings. Dad was cremated; been to the plot only on the day we interred his ashes.

The daughter recognized my Dad at his funeral - he looked really happy. For all that she sees spirits every day (we didn't believe her 'till she was about 12), typically the faces are indistinct. Not that time.

Robbie 2
11-27-2015, 05:09 PM
Dad passed away in 1972 (heart attack) and was buried in the local cemetary near where we farmed.
The farm was sold and we moved away so I rarely got the chance to visit Dad's gravesite.
Mum passed away in June 2015 so as a family we decided to have Mum cremated and held her ashes until the 8th November 2015 which would have been her 93rd birthday.
On this day we all gathered together and interred Mum's ashes on top of Dad's grave including the placement of a nice plaque cemented in place so it wouldn't move.
Our family are scattered far and wide so we wanted everything done right as none of us knows when or if we will get back there again.

For me: I have always loved flying and fishing/boating and would prefer to combine the two by cremation followed by being place in a balloon and released somewhere that means I will be scattered at great height over the sea......If anyone wishes to remember me they should take a glass of whatever they fancy, find a nice beach and raise their glass in my memory as they watch the sun rise from the sea.

CWSmith
11-27-2015, 05:30 PM
For those who want their relatives to have a place to visit, there are columbaria that take little space and can be visited.

That said, planted under a tree really does appeal to me.

wizbang 13
11-27-2015, 06:32 PM
Most of my family and friends who do not breath are in the sea.
They all died first. Me too I hope.

CWSmith
11-27-2015, 06:50 PM
Most of my family and friends who do not breath are in the sea.
They all died first. Me too I hope.

? ? ? Be well. That's all I can think to say.

wizbang 13
11-27-2015, 07:10 PM
Translated
many of my deceased friends and family have had their ashes in the sea.
none of them drowned.
I would like to not die from drowning , but have my ashes go to sea.

CWSmith
11-27-2015, 07:13 PM
Translated
many of my deceased friends and family have had their ashes in the sea.
none of them drowned.
I would like to not die from drowning , but have my ashes go to sea.

I put that together after a bit and that version is much less depressing.

I think it's a good idea, but since my relatives all have lungs I'm still thinking under a tree.

If I were buried under an apple tree, would the fruit be considered gross?

The Bigfella
11-27-2015, 07:27 PM
This is about cultural norms - such practices are only shocking if the idea is new to you, and are very far from unimaginable.


Google parsi vulture.

Cultural norms are interesting things.

I watched a rather nasty little video the other day, because it seemed out of character with the young (mid 20's) lady who posted it. I know her from a refugee camp, where I helped her family put together their resettlement applications, so I know her background in detail. I was surprised to see her post it, but can't translate her comments that she added.

So - cultural norms. It was an African video of three executions, with another dozen waiting to go. The three who died were sitting in the long line, calmly got up when it was their turn, walked to the edge of the pit... the grave... laid down on the edge and waited whilst a large knife was handed to someone else... who sawed away and cut their throats. The body was rolled into the pit... still moving in one case... next one walked calmly over.... and so on. There's all sorts of apparent cultural norms there - no-one seemed in the slightest bit perturbed, including the victims. I'd rather stick to my cultural norms.

WszystekPoTrochu
11-29-2015, 07:59 PM
This is about cultural norms - such practices are only shocking if the idea is new to you, and are very far from unimaginable.


Google parsi vulture.

It is quite clearly stated that Greeks are not ok with this grim practice. So whose cultural norms are You talking about?

Burial is culture dependent, sure, and I'm ok with that. I don't get the small contest for the most exotic funeral example that started here, as it totally misses the point - at least mine. The citizens of two biggest cities do not accept what's happening, do not like it, are far from having that as cultural norm. Surely, not with such short span from burying to exhuming. If even the graveyard worker would abstain from digging into graves of people he knew, the culture is violated. Severely.

The Bigfella
11-29-2015, 08:41 PM
It is quite clearly stated that Greeks are not ok with this grim practice. So whose cultural norms are You talking about?

Burial is culture dependent, sure, and I'm ok with that. I don't get the small contest for the most exotic funeral example that started here, as it totally misses the point - at least mine. The citizens of two biggest cities do not accept what's happening, do not like it, are far from having that as cultural norm. Surely, not with such short span from burying to exhuming. If even the graveyard worker would abstain from digging into graves of people he knew, the culture is violated. Severely.

IIRC, without checking the detail again, there is the option for the family to renew the tenure. There's always the option for them to do the burial further afield, if you'll excuse the pun... where land may not be so scarce... and longer tenure can be secured.

WX
11-29-2015, 08:49 PM
In Canberra you can now be buried in a designated forest area without a coffin.

The Bigfella
11-29-2015, 08:57 PM
In Canberra you can now be buried in a designated forest area without a coffin.

That's nothing new. Muslim burials have been conducted here for as long as I can recall without a coffin. There was a bit of a stink about 3 decades back, some newspaper article decrying "bodies being carried through the streets on boards" or some suchlike. The compromise was the use of coffins until the graveside was reached.

S.V. Airlie
11-29-2015, 08:59 PM
We have seven family plots where I live. Dependent on the surname. It covers 150 years for those with mine. The most recent have been cremated; my parents. My mother's family dates back to the late 1700's in her surname but, go further back to the early 1600's in Guilford, CT. Also on Nantucket back to the 1600's and the Newport, RI area. None were cremated though.

It's only useful in genealogy work though.