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Osborne Russell
11-17-2015, 06:13 PM
I didn't know until this U of Missouri stuff came along. Now . . . OMG!


The safe space, Ms. Byron explained, was intended to give people who might find comments “troubling” or “triggering,” a place to recuperate. The room was equipped with cookies, coloring books, bubbles, Play-Doh, calming music, pillows, blankets and a video of frolicking puppies, as well as students and staff members trained to deal with trauma. Emma Hall, a junior, rape survivor and “sexual assault peer educator” who helped set up the room and worked in it during the debate, estimates that a couple of dozen people used it.

At one point she went to the lecture hall — it was packed — but after a while, she had to return to the safe space. “I was feeling bombarded by a lot of viewpoints that really go against my dearly and closely held beliefs,” Ms. Hall said.

Safe spaces are an expression of the conviction, increasingly prevalent among college students, that their schools should keep them from being “bombarded” by discomfiting or distressing viewpoints. Think of the safe space as the live-action version of the better-known trigger warning, a notice put on top of a syllabus or an assigned reading to alert students to the presence of potentially disturbing material.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html?_r=0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U

Curtism
11-17-2015, 06:17 PM
What the . . . ?

Peerie Maa
11-17-2015, 06:29 PM
http://images.clipartof.com/small/211440-Yellow-Smiley-Face-Baby-Emoticon-Sucking-Its-Thumb-Poster-Art-Print.jpg

CWSmith
11-17-2015, 06:40 PM
I was feeling bombarded by a lot of viewpoints that really go against my dearly and closely held beliefs...

Coward. She could not bear to hear things she disagreed with without fleeing to a safe place?

Rum_Pirate
11-17-2015, 06:41 PM
http://www.mercierpress.ie/contentFiles/productImages/Medium/1424444124019_cottonwoollinergb8.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M0P-wtCLXDY/T8DWHcl7ODI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/IKFrHHY_vOI/s1600/cman64l.jpg

Sky Blue
11-17-2015, 06:46 PM
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/cartoons/images/2015/11/12/chip_bok_chip_bok_for_11122015_5_.jpg (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/cartoons/cartoons_of_the_week/index.html)

Duncan Gibbs
11-17-2015, 06:57 PM
Whilst I did enjoy that episode of Southpark (I am pretty much addicted to the show), they were being sarcastic about who has been claiming "legitimate use" of safe spaces.

Eric Cartman or Steven Segal being "fat shamed" or Randy Marsh being asked loudly to donate a dollar to help feed the starving kids in Third World countries as appended to his luxury food items grocery bill are NOT equivalent to Rape and child abuse survivors and victims of racial violence and abuse.

The notion of providing such spaces isn't all that far fetched when you consider the continued trauma from 'speech' such individuals are subject to during legal proceedings, rape and child abuse victims in particular. Speech can be more than simply offensive and can actually harm others who are vulnerable. What do you think of certain Leni Riefenstahl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Will) films?

If you wish to belittle such people who are given access to safe spaces and the trauma they've experienced, go right ahead. But don't expect anyone to take YOU seriously, because for all intents and purposes it appears like you enjoy kicking people while their down.

Osbourne, I actually think you're having very serious trouble with the notion that 'rights' are actually more expansive than free speech and that individual rights can come in conflict with each other at times and that the World isn't all comfortably black and white; that it's very much mostly dirty grey.

Too Little Time
11-17-2015, 07:08 PM
... are NOT equivalent to Rape and child abuse survivors and victims of racial violence and abuse.

The notion of providing such spaces isn't all that far fetched when you consider the continued trauma from 'speech' such individuals are subject to during legal proceedings, rape and child abuse victims in particular. Speech can be more than simply offensive and can actually harm others who are vulnerable.

If you wish to belittle such people who are given access to safe spaces and the trauma they've experienced, go right ahead. But don't expect anyone to take YOU seriously, because for all intents and purposes it appears like you enjoy kicking people while their down.

I can agree with that.

Sky Blue
11-17-2015, 07:12 PM
If you wish to belittle such people...

I find it interesting the lengths to which the Progressives on this Forum have gone to "debunk" the thuggish conduct that occurred here. I think they protest too much. These students are acting like ninnies, variously acting hurt and then turning right around to bully others. They are silly, entitled children, enabled by a preposterous academy, that is utterly afraid of them.

This, btw, is representative of trauma for which a safe space is required. Not these silly children. They, and their silly defenders, need to grow up.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M153e7d459e280b2bcddc19775d34280fH0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M4d8ca4ea1b211b93489ffbba641f2611o0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M0961df55e524fdd39ffffe0ff98d681do0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M668eb5147185ffeb6ebf355fc415eeaao0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M6df8a253b19d2d808656fdc6a165c611H2&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.Mc85739bc1cc9df329eedfe7e4e557fd8H0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

Osborne Russell
11-17-2015, 07:25 PM
Whilst I did enjoy that episode of Southpark (I am pretty much addicted to the show), they were being sarcastic about who has been claiming "legitimate use" of safe spaces.

Eric Cartman or Steven Segal being "fat shamed" or Randy Marsh being asked loudly to donate a dollar to help feed the starving kids in Third World countries as appended to his luxury food items grocery bill are NOT equivalent to Rape and child abuse survivors and victims of racial violence and abuse.

The notion of providing such spaces isn't all that far fetched when you consider the continued trauma from 'speech' such individuals are subject to during legal proceedings, rape and child abuse victims in particular. Speech can be more than simply offensive and can actually harm others who are vulnerable. What do you think of certain Leni Riefenstahl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Will) films?

If you wish to belittle such people who are given access to safe spaces and the trauma they've experienced, go right ahead. But don't expect anyone to take YOU seriously, because for all intents and purposes it appears like you enjoy kicking people while their down.

Osbourne, I actually think you're having very serious trouble with the notion that 'rights' are actually more expansive than free speech and that individual rights can come in conflict with each other at times and that the World isn't all comfortably black and white; that it's very much mostly dirty grey.

If you do not like me, you are not allowed
in my safe space
(my safe space . . . )

Just kidding.

If people need help with trauma, fine. That isn't what is demanded. What is demanded is that the University be made safe, in this peculiar sense. The residence halls, the classrooms, everywhere. Play doh and videos of puppies. The town, too. If the College President can't stop people in town from being insensitive, fire his azz. Screw his career, his family. If you want justice, you need lots of injustice; you must not be over-sensitive.

From the saga of the Yale Halloween Costume E Mail:


“You should step down!” one student shouted at Mr. Christakis, while demanding between expletives to know why Yale had hired him in the first place. “It is not about creating an intellectual space! It is not! Do you understand that? It is about creating a home here!”

“You’re supposed to be our advocate!” another student yelled.

“You are a poor steward of this community!” the first student said before turning and walking away. “You should not sleep at night! You are disgusting.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/nyregion/yale-culturally-insensitive-halloween-costumes-free-speech.html?_r=0

Yale is not about creating an intellectual space! It is not! Do you understand that? It is about creating a home!

Moving on, yes, I am having very serious trouble the notion that :


. . . 'rights' are actually more expansive than free speech and that individual rights can come in conflict with each other at times and that the World isn't all comfortably black and white; that it's very much mostly dirty grey.

Very ambiguous. I could try to resolve the various ambiguities but I don't feel safe ha ha that you would approve my resolutions. Better if you do it. Speaking of, did you ever answer the question about how the camera guy was violating the rights of the lying POS hunger striker and his pals at the University of Missouri?

Duncan Gibbs
11-17-2015, 07:30 PM
I'm sorry Sky but I really don't think you're in any kind of position to judge individuals, who are generally very isolated (not acting in concert in huge numbers in the public eye like your examples above) as "silly children."

These are rape victims.
These are child abuse victims.
These are victims of hate violence.
These are victims whose various rights have been violated on many, many levels.

They are often very socially isolated, and it's only through a number of programmes, such as safe places, support groups and so on that they are able to overcome their feelings of diminished self worth and victimhood.

If you don't get this I can only assume a certain level of insensitivity, based upon the learned idea (promulgated by the right wing media in particular) that they should simply 'get over it.'

I was a victim of child abuse. I am no longer a victim precisely because I was given the kind of support (nowhere near as much though) that is on offer to these students.

Duncan Gibbs
11-17-2015, 07:34 PM
Speaking of, did you ever answer the question about how the camera guy was violating the rights of the lying POS hunger striker and his pals at the University of Missouri?
Yes I did.

I said that he wasn't. The students were in a public place and he wasn't doing anything other than reporting on a protest.

The reaction of the prof' was stupid and she deserves censure, and will most likely get it.

What part of using judgement and balance on these issues don't you get?

Do you enjoy subjecting people who have been traumatised to further trauma? Do you see it as your "right" to do so? :mad:

CWSmith
11-17-2015, 07:41 PM
People who have been traumatized to the point they need a safe place to escape from normal life (rape victims, victims of child abuse, abused wives, PTS victims, etc) are psychologically damaged. I think that's different from what the OP describes, or at least it's not what I took it to be.

Duncan Gibbs
11-17-2015, 07:44 PM
I just read you NYT piece. Gawd!

Asking people to be sensitive and respectful to one another is NOT THE SAME AS CENSORSHIP!

If you don't get, or unwilling to try and get this important distinction then you really have NO way of understanding what free speech actually is.

YOU are the one wrapped up in the cotton wool of privilege and wealth in Those Excited States of Amnesia. You have precisely NO grounds on which to make any kinds of judgements on the issue.

Duncan Gibbs
11-17-2015, 07:45 PM
People who have been traumatized to the point they need a safe place to escape from normal life (rape victims, victims of child abuse, abused wives, PTS victims, etc) are psychologically damaged. I think that's different from what the OP describes, or at least it's not what I took it to be.
...


Ms. Byron [...] rape survivor
;)

Sky Blue
11-17-2015, 07:48 PM
a certain level of insensitivity...

Rubbish. The public collegiate environment is hardly one for working through trauma of the kind you describe. I am providing the best possible advice to these young people, as they shortly will enter a world that will care little for their traumas and experiences, such as they may be, one that will demand that they be productive irrespective of those traumas and experiences and will not care a whit about them. Most of this stuff is pure theatre, and you know it.

It is actually the sensitive view, tough love though it may be, that they would grow up as soon as possible, for there will be many more traumas, experiences, loves, deaths, disparagements, and indignities along the way. This is only the beginning.

Osborne Russell
11-17-2015, 07:57 PM
What the . . . ?

Very understandable to be at a loss. You've got to be carefully taught . . . Rodgers and Hammerstein.

Like these poor dears:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MrTGZSPajI

wudzgud
11-17-2015, 07:57 PM
The little dive bar down the street is a safe place. It's free of dolts with weaponized emotions.

Duncan Gibbs
11-17-2015, 07:58 PM
Tough love, as you describe it, can push victims of such trauma towards ending it all. I've seen it happen to friends of mine. It's a truly awful thing to witness.

Your claim of rubbish is itself, utter, utter rubbish.

CWSmith
11-17-2015, 08:00 PM
Point taken, Duncan. The quote seems to have left a lot out.

We need to expect these debates in a college setting. They are a reality of the education system. It may be difficult for a rape victim to hear that debate, and I may find at least one of the viewpoints to be insanely stupid, but I doubt that anyone would take the moronic view of justifying or defending sexual assault. Given that reality, a true victim might wish to separate themselves from this debate. One the other hand, the voice of a true victim might be exactly what needs to be heard.

Duncan Gibbs
11-17-2015, 08:02 PM
Very understandable to be at a loss. You've got to be carefully taught . . . Rodgers and Hammerstein.

Like these poor dears:
You have precisely NO idea.

You've just proved, in ^ this post, how completely clueless and indoctrinated you are by the RWW media.

Sky Blue
11-17-2015, 08:05 PM
Who is to say who the "true victims" are? Me? You? Maybe I've been abused or perceive that I have been. Do I get to be a victim if I say so based on my own individual perception of my own "trauma" and "experiences" and you and everybody else needs to hew and cut to that?

Is that the real world that we each inhabit on a daily basis? C'mon. Let us not have the discussion here be as silly as they are on the campuses.

George Jung
11-17-2015, 08:06 PM
I've never heard of such a 'safe space' before, and have to wonder - how is it implemented on a college campus? Is there such a site in every building/every floor? If a student feels stressed in a class, is this space an 'time out', no penalty, sort of thing?

Lot's of damaged folks out there. Not sure a college campus is the right spot for them, if they need such an option I order to cope. Counseling would seem a better option.

Osborne Russell
11-17-2015, 08:21 PM
Yes I did.

I said that he wasn't. The students were in a public place and he wasn't doing anything other than reporting on a protest.

The reaction of the prof' was stupid and she deserves censure, and will most likely get it.

What part of using judgement and balance on these issues don't you get?

Do you enjoy subjecting people who have been traumatised to further trauma? Do you see it as your "right" to do so? :mad:

Again I must say I don't understand what you're saying.

My point was much broader than the Prof. There is a philosophical movement, if I may describe it thusly without giving offense, with many enthusiastic followers, including many university professors, which sheds a great deal of light on the U of Missouri doings. A prominent feature of that movement is the evolution of the concept of "safe space". However legitimate it might be in other contexts, it has now escaped those contexts and mutated into pure horse S. I would expect the legit people to object to the perversion, but of course first they have to overcome the natural reluctance to even believe it has happened, really, in the real world. How could something so vital devolve into something so trivial? I didn't believe it myself, at first. But traumatic memories were triggered; I've seen this before. From Marxists, particularly . . . and their dupes.

Osborne Russell
11-17-2015, 08:22 PM
You have precisely NO idea.

You've just proved, in ^ this post, how completely clueless and indoctrinated you are by the RWW media.

No idea of what?

Ian McColgin
11-17-2015, 08:23 PM
It's certainly the case that a number of people are bit touchy, over sensitive, chip-on-the-shoulder. Students should learn how to argue with both reason and vigor, not always an easy thing and never painless.

CWSmith
11-17-2015, 08:38 PM
Here is what bothers me with this story. I can't give specifics, but I can convey the essence:

About a year ago it was suggested that we all take sensitivity training regarding a specific issue and then we could put "safe zone" stickers on our office windows. I had a student I was working with and have great respect for who fit that demographic. I refused the training. It's not complicated - treat everyone with respect and get on with the job. However, I've sat in too many of these training sessions and what is simple becomes an exercise in CYA by administrators. Moreover, if I did not take the training my office would be viewed as "unsafe" by implication. So, I'm offended by a lot of the PC nonsense that goes on in colleges today.

Respect is simple. You give it. If something is none of your business, then it's none of your business.

It's still under my skin.

Osborne Russell
11-17-2015, 08:43 PM
Who is to say who the "true victims" are? Me? You?

A vital question. One way, the state kicks my butt; the other, yours. We'll get good at informing on each other.

ahp
11-17-2015, 09:36 PM
I have absolutely no sympathy. These infants need a place to be safe from ideas? Then they don't belong in college. They should go back home to mother.

Too Little Time
11-17-2015, 09:44 PM
Lot's of damaged folks out there. Not sure a college campus is the right spot for them, if they need such an option I order to cope. Counseling would seem a better option.
There are a lot of dumb people out there doing their own version of the blue eye; brown eye experiment. Just because they can.

The reality of college is that one cannot quit and go elsewhere. At least not until the year ends.

Duncan Gibbs
11-17-2015, 11:38 PM
I do understand the idea that the whole 'safe space' concept might get overwrought by those who have no capacity for critical thinking, or see it as an opportunity to build their own little administrative empires within a particular institutional setting. Vis-a-vis the whole moronic training gizmo that CW has outlined. I get this.

But in the instance of the OP the safe space outlined is for victims of sexual assault. To trivialise such a matter, or the mechanisms that are there to positively help such individuals is to piss upon them from a great height. To my mind such a trivialisation is vicious and totally uncalled for. Almost an act of hate, just because you can enunciate such an act. Like the imbeciles that draw Muhammad cartoons because they "can."

BS like "These infants need a place to be safe from ideas?" does nothing but reveal the complete ignorance of the poster of the damage that stuff like sexual assault, child abuse and hate crime inflicts.

These issues are not trivial. The damage inflicted is often life long and ANY help victims of such traumas can get is better than blithe throw-away platitudes like "Get over it!" Not everyone CAN "get over it." Some people never "get over it." Some people end it all precisely because of their inability to "get over it" because they have moronic gits telling them to "get over it." That's screwed up.

Ian McColgin
11-18-2015, 06:53 AM
Very well said Dincan. The other and more important half of what I believe.

Keith Wilson
11-18-2015, 08:44 AM
'Safe spaces' are good. We all should have one, and most of us do. We build houses and apartments, and put locks on the doors so that the person to whom the 'safe space' belongs can keep out anything or anyone they don't like. And something like what's described in the OP can be very helpful for survivors of actual trauma. No problem.

Public spaces should also be 'safe spaces'. No one in public should be subjected to violence or threats; for this we have laws. I'd much prefer that no one be subjected to rudeness, disrespect, or unkindness either, and for this we have social norms and rules, although the harm is not severe enough to call in the force of law. But in a public space, nobody, NOBODY has the right to be free from ideas and words they don't like or agree with. Trying to prevent someone form expressing his opinion, no matter how loathsome, simply because you don't agree with him is completely unacceptable. And when coupled to power, it's tyranny.

BrianY
11-18-2015, 09:07 AM
Keith - exactly right.

One of the things that gets my goat about my fellow Liberals, especially those on college campuses, is the concerted effort to block speech and views that they don't agree with. Now, I know that Conservatives do this sort of thing too, but it is particularly galling when folks who claim to value free speech and self expression (i.e. Liberals) act in ways that are antithetical to those values.

delecta
11-18-2015, 09:40 AM
Someone needs to point Duncan to a safe space, we used to call them rubber rooms.

Amazing how we want to raise our children to not feel pain and grow as adults. The world is not and will never be a safe space, the sooner they learn this the better.

I have a trophy for you for participating in this thread.

Keith Wilson
11-18-2015, 09:45 AM
One of the things that gets my goat about my fellow Liberals, especially those on college campuses, is the concerted effort to block speech and views that they don't agree with.Those who do that are not liberals. People too far to the left have been all too ready to restrict human rights in the name of one good cause or another. One doesn't have to go too far back in history to find plenty of examples.

delecta
11-18-2015, 09:50 AM
Those who do that are not liberals. .

So what shall we call them?

Duncan Gibbs
11-18-2015, 09:53 AM
And when coupled to power, it's tyranny.
But in this instance it's NOT is it? No one is carting anyone else off to some torture chamber. No one is being sent to prison. No one is having ANY form of disapprobation inflicted on them, because they CAN'T.

You guys live in the most morally Laissez-faire society on the planet. To conflate safe spaces with attacks on free speech is utter and patent, idiotic nonsense. This is why I say anyone who does so really doesn't actually get the concept - the INTENT - of free speech. Go live in a society with real and actual dangers to life and liberty and then you'll figure out what's important to free speech and what's a minuscule storm in a doll's house tea cup. Geeezuz wept!

xflow7
11-18-2015, 09:53 AM
Along the lines of what Keith posted, there's a very big difference between a safe space for avoidance of, or recovery from, emotional distress re-ignited from past trauma, and a "safe space" to avoid "feeling bombarded by a lot of viewpoints that really go against my dearly and closely held beliefs."

Dave

Keith Wilson
11-18-2015, 09:59 AM
No one is carting anyone else off to some torture chamber. No one is being sent to prison. No one is having ANY form of disapprobation inflicted on them, because they CAN'T. No, not at all in the case in the OP. There really is, however, a phenomenon in the US, mainly confined to college campuses, where profoundly illiberal restrictions on free speech are being advocated, and in some cases enforced. This bothers me more because I generally sympathize with those advocating them, but think they are very badly mistaken.


So what shall we call them?.In the old days, the authoritarians on the left were mostly communists of one variety or another. Fortunately, they've gone the way of monarchists and millerites. 'Liberal', before the right tried to turn it into a generalized non-specific insult like 'poopy-head', used to mean the moderate left. Those farther left but not identified with a specific brand of communism were generally called radicals. That would b ea good name; shall we say 'radical leftists'? I realize Ron thinks anyone to the left of Ted Cruz is a 'radical leftist', but we can ignore that.

Osborne Russell
11-18-2015, 12:04 PM
But in the instance of the OP the safe space outlined is for victims of sexual assault.

". . . a “safe space” would be available for anyone who found the debate too upsetting."

ANYONE, raped or not.

And this space is only part of the larger effort to transform the entire University, to eliminate ANYTHING that MIGHT prompt memories of trauma.

"Bringing in a speaker like that could serve to invalidate people’s experiences,” she told me. It could be “damaging.”

If you are psychologically damaged to the point where you are reduced to jelly by the mere invitation of a speaker, let alone debate, you are thereby disabled from going to college. What you need is medical attention. You probably shouldn't drive a car, and in no case should you turn on the radio while driving. If the Doc says you need a safe space, feel free to buy yourself one, like the rest of the student body bought themselves a space in which to get educated.

"Your safe space" cannot be extended into a bubble that causes the rest of the world to be transformed wherever it goes. The idea is not just absurd, it's offensive, because the only way it can even be attempted comes at the expense of other peoples' rights.

And of course the effort is now ostensibly being made on behalf of a far larger group of people than victims of rape.

Osborne Russell
11-18-2015, 12:10 PM
Yes I did.

I said that he wasn't. The students were in a public place and he wasn't doing anything other than reporting on a protest.

The reaction of the prof' was stupid and she deserves censure, and will most likely get it.

What part of using judgement and balance on these issues don't you get?

Do you enjoy subjecting people who have been traumatised to further trauma? Do you see it as your "right" to do so? :mad:

Well, in that other thread, you were going to explain how the Missouri situation demonstrated your concept of free speech, and how it was involved, so if it wasn't, you can't, I guess; which makes we wonder why you brought it up. I don't know because I don't know what your concept is. So here's another opportunity. Does the right of free speech have to yield, to the extent of not inviting a speaker to a University, because of someone's superior right to . . . I don't know what, you tell me.

Osborne Russell
11-18-2015, 12:31 PM
But in this instance it's NOT is it? No one is carting anyone else off to some torture chamber. No one is being sent to prison. No one is having ANY form of disapprobation inflicted on them, because they CAN'T.

People are told they are excluded from selected public areas, can't take pictures, can't ask questions, can't say selected things . . . as decided by people who did not acquire that power by the consent of those they seek to govern. People's educations are being mangled, people are being fired from jobs, people are being blackmailed and shamed mercilessly, and forced to sign absurd "confessions". Their work life and their life beyond is suffocated. Their human rights are under attack. They live in fear. This is said to be right and just because . . . it's what they did to "marginalized persons"; because of things over which they have no power; because of things that happened before they were born. Ironic, eh? How about we balance the injustices of history by visiting fresh injustice upon you? How much of that will we have to do before the world is "safe"?


You guys live in the most morally Laissez-faire society on the planet. To conflate safe spaces with attacks on free speech is utter and patent, idiotic nonsense. This is why I say anyone who does so really doesn't actually get the concept - the INTENT - of free speech. Go live in a society with real and actual dangers to life and liberty and then you'll figure out what's important to free speech and what's a minuscule storm in a doll's house tea cup. Geeezuz wept!

OK, so tell us -- what is the intent of free speech?

Osborne Russell
11-18-2015, 12:51 PM
Meanwhile, at Yale . . .

. . . they're mad at this guy because his wife, as "Master" of a "house" -- a student housing unit -- has traumatized them just by mentioning free speech in the context of Halloween costumes -- in an e-mail. They can't bear even to hear it. It means their "house" is no longer "safe", no longer a place of "comfort". It sure isn't for him!

“You should step down!” one student shouted at Mr. Christakis, while demanding between expletives to know why Yale had hired him in the first place. “It is not about creating an intellectual space! It is not! Do you understand that? It is about creating a home here!”

“You’re supposed to be our advocate!” another student yelled.

“You are a poor steward of this community!” the first student said before turning and walking away. “You should not sleep at night! You are disgusting.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tsgc0k594Js

birlinn
11-18-2015, 01:01 PM
I live in a safe space.
My door is never locked, unless I am away for a few days.

CWSmith
11-18-2015, 01:14 PM
So what shall we call them?

It's a form of mob rule and mobs are always ruled by fear. Left or right, it's fear of being unimportant, not heard, or unable to face those who disagree.

George Jung
11-18-2015, 01:19 PM
Meanwhile, at Yale . . .

. . . they're mad at this guy because his wife, as "Master" of a "house" -- a student housing unit -- has traumatized them just by mentioning free speech in the context of Halloween costumes -- in an e-mail. They can't bear even to hear it. It means their "house" is no longer "safe", no longer a place of "comfort". It sure isn't for him!

“You should step down!” one student shouted at Mr. Christakis, while demanding between expletives to know why Yale had hired him in the first place. “It is not about creating an intellectual space! It is not! Do you understand that? It is about creating a home here!”

“You’re supposed to be our advocate!” another student yelled.

“You are a poor steward of this community!” the first student said before turning and walking away. “You should not sleep at night! You are disgusting.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tsgc0k594Js

That was incredibly bizarre. How did Yale get so mucked up?

Osborne Russell
11-18-2015, 01:51 PM
I live in a safe space.
My door is never locked, unless I am away for a few days.

You mean someone can just walk in and Trigger Your Trauma just by mentioning free speech? Doesn't sound very safe.

George Jung
11-18-2015, 01:52 PM
Yup. This 'a movement', alright.

Leave it at that.

Michael D. Storey
11-18-2015, 02:32 PM
Safe Space is between Venus and Earth, outside of the asteroid belt.

Osborne Russell
11-18-2015, 08:27 PM
So what shall we call them?

I like "authoritarian" because it expresses the fact of how cowardly they are, demanding some institution do something to somebody else without them having to take responsibility for the suppression. They don't want to have to do any persuading or even discuss it or even hear it mentioned, out of respect for their fragility.

Somewhere I saw a term that might do: "cry-bully", which puts across the cowardly viciousness, as well as the infantile tantrum aspect.

john welsford
11-18-2015, 10:54 PM
In this "world" that they will enter, they will generally have spaces where they can retreat to to gather their wits, an office with their door shut and the phone off the hook, the rest room, a quiet walk between departments or a bedroom with light out and curtains drawn. I cant imagine that anyone here has not done that at some time in their life.
In my experience ( senior visiting tutor, school of industrial design, Massey University Auckland New Zealand) these spaces are not commonly available to students in a university environment. Especially to those in their first and sometimes second years where they will be having to adapt to a very different way of life, away from family, sharing accommodation, struggling to learn not only their academic subjects but also learning to live in a world far removed from that which they were used to.
I was dismissive of the "teddy bears and cookies room" idea, but on thinking it over, many of my students would have appreciated a stress free zone where they could go and take time out for half an hour or so now and again.
Sitting across a desk from a tearful student who in spite of making a real effort is only just making it because of outside factors really does make one think hard about how to improve things. As a tutor ( "Lecturer" in "English ") responsible for the performance of the student, its hard to find ways to help. They're not just numbers to be tossed to the wolves and told to get on with it, they're human beings who are deserving of the best we as their mentors and teachers can do.
If that means videos of puppies and a beanbag in a dimly lit room I say go for it.
John Welsford



_
Rubbish. The public collegiate environment is hardly one for working through trauma of the kind you describe. I am providing the best possible advice to these young people, as they shortly will enter a world that will care little for their traumas and experiences, such as they may be, one that will demand that they be productive irrespective of those traumas and experiences and will not care a whit about them. Most of this stuff is pure theatre, and you know it.

It is actually the sensitive view, tough love though it may be, that they would grow up as soon as possible, for there will be many more traumas, experiences, loves, deaths, disparagements, and indignities along the way. This is only the beginning.

Duncan Gibbs
11-18-2015, 11:20 PM
^ BINGO! Well said John.

The Yale appear to be tossing the 'safe space' idea back at the writer of the email as a reaction to be asked to have a think about trying not offend people as a matter of course: A kind of "our free speech trumps your free speech" thing. I look at the examples such as Professor Click at Mizzou as a swing of the pendulum since you've had numbnuts like Trump and that other idiot female pollie from St Louis (?) along with the shooting deaths of black kids and a hole other host of RWW who have all contributed to breaking down the social glue that has made America much, much greater than the sum of her parts.

Like David G has said on that thread:


My impression is that the U.S. right wing feels the need to latch on so vigorously to those few instances of left wing idiocy in a desperate attempt to counterbalance the avalanche of idiocy coming from the right these days (eg. every single Republican presidential candidate).
And also as Keith replied:


Agreed. The immoderate left has influence on a few college campuses. The immoderate right controls 20-odd states and the house of Representatives, at least, and has done and far more harm than 'political correctness', however nasty.
If you are looking for an example of free speech REALLY being stomped hard upon look at images of Seattle in 1999 and a whole host of protests since that have been violently broken up.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/WTO_protests_in_Seattle_November_30_1999.jpg/640px-WTO_protests_in_Seattle_November_30_1999.jpg

Sky Blue
11-18-2015, 11:29 PM
Perhaps some are unclear on specifically what the "safe space movement" is about. It is an identity politics movement primarily on college campuses.

It is not about being sensitive to persons who have suffered various personal trauma for which persons might typically obtain therapy or other clinical services (as has been suggested here by a few). It is about personal empowerment based on a perceived entitlement to public accommodation whereby other persons may be excluded for reasons including but not limited to race, gender, sexual orientation, or political viewpoint (to name a few). Such is typically not allowed in America for obvious Constitutional and statutory reasons, but has been tolerated on college campuses in the US for various reasons.

The accommodation is defined as a place where anyone can feel relaxed and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcomed or unsafe on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability.

While that sounds all well and good, the movement is being used as a cudgel, as it always has been, to under a claim of right exclude and suppress the freedom and rights of others as occurred in the Mizzou matter. Some may say this is just fine and desirable, others will obviously disagree. That the movement is limited almost entirely to college campuses, however, should be instructive on how the larger culture perceives the matter.

Apart from this, public and private universities in the US typically have all manner of services for students, who, it must be remembered, are regular people with challenges, disabilities, illnesses, psychological conditions, disturbances, anger management problems and all the rest of it. Universities in the US are very therapeutic environments in this regard. Students needing help and counseling for virtually any personal challenge or trauma should be able to obtain some sort of referral and this is made clear, again and again, to all students.

Duncan Gibbs
11-18-2015, 11:44 PM
I think it's a balancing act, like most things in life actually are. I can see (as I've I've said on a few occasions on this thread and the Mizzou thread) that the idea may well have been carried too far in a few instances. In opposition to Mr Russell's assertion that people have received disapprobation (and lost their jobs) from safe spaces being 'inflicted' on them, it would appear that the reverse is true: That Professor Click will loose her job as a result of trying (and she was... very trying, but pretty pathetic at it) to enforce the concept of a safe space beyond all reason. Does this make the complete misuse of freedom of speech by vile people in the service of vile causes something beyond merely the innocuous? Of course not. Does it reduce arguments around free speech to some pretty petty examples, when the whole idea of free speech is about holding people in power, institutions and companies to account without fear of punishment? Bloody oath!

Edward Snowden exposed how you were all (and us too!) being spied upon by your own government and he's now literally on the run from the law. THAT'S an affront to free speech.

The whole campus thing, I reiterate, is a very small storm in a doll's house sized teacup.

I suggest you pick you fights better Mr Russell.

Canoeyawl
11-19-2015, 12:08 PM
University of California
Pepper spray...
lhttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/FogerRox/OccupyWallStreet/OccupyUCD3.jpg[/URL]

George Jung
11-19-2015, 12:27 PM
Lessee.... how'd that one turn out?

Re: SB's post.... I find myself in agreement. That's troubling - time to reconsider!

Osborne Russell
11-19-2015, 12:59 PM
If that means videos of puppies and a beanbag in a dimly lit room I say go for it.

OK but again that is not what this is about. This is about people trying to make the world into that room, by force -- "Can I get some muscle over here?" It's an attempt to rationalize authoritarianism on a new basis. A high-jacking.

Too Little Time
11-19-2015, 01:03 PM
The accommodation is defined as a place where anyone can feel relaxed and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcomed or unsafe on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability.

While that sounds all well and good, the movement is being used as a cudgel, as it always has been, to under a claim of right exclude and suppress the freedom and rights of others as occurred in the Mizzou matter. Some may say this is just fine and desirable, others will obviously disagree. That the movement is limited almost entirely to college campuses, however, should be instructive on how the larger culture perceives the matter.

You seem to be of a belief that schools are there to allow one group to bully another. And thus you resort to a claim that the bullies have rights that need to be respected.

I believe that schools are there to educate students.

I would not object to the trouble makes being tossed out.

BrianY
11-19-2015, 01:29 PM
I believe that schools are there to educate students.

.

Exactly. Part of being an educated person is being exposed to ideas that conflict with one's own and that challenge one's beliefs and learning how to deal with them. No one should be bullied on a college campus, but colleges are doing their students a disservice by insulating them from ideas and beliefs that are different. I believe that there is a proper role for "safe spaces" on campus, but that public spaces on campus and entire campuses should not be "safe"and students and professors should not be able to claim part of the public space as "safe space" whenever they like. Rather, the free and sometimes disturbing exchange of ideas should be encouraged so that students leave college having been exposed to the realities of the diversity of opinions and beliefs that make up the "real world". Students SHOULD be confronted with uncomfortable, unfamiliar and challenging ideas. That's how minds develop and grow.

Osborne Russell
11-19-2015, 01:39 PM
Sky Blue lays it all out, except . . .


. . .the movement is being used as a cudgel, as it always has been, to under a claim of right exclude and suppress the freedom and rights of others as occurred in the Mizzou matter . . .

More than that in a significant respect. It's being used to blackmail people with threat of job loss if they don't kowtow. Like the Prez of Mizzou. Often, having kowtowed, they are forced to resign anyway.

john welsford
11-19-2015, 02:02 PM
I understand that, what I am saying though is that there is a place for a space within the greater, and challenging environment of a university where students can have a "time out" so they can absorb whats happening for them and come back better able to cope.
I had not intended that my comment be taken as an approval of a group trying to make the whole institution into something of that nature.

John Welsford




OK but again that is not what this is about. This is about people trying to make the world into that room, by force -- "Can I get some muscle over here?" It's an attempt to rationalize authoritarianism on a new basis. A high-jacking.

Too Little Time
11-19-2015, 05:15 PM
Exactly. Part of being an educated person is being exposed to ideas that conflict with one's own and that challenge one's beliefs and learning how to deal with them. No one should be bullied on a college campus, but colleges are doing their students a disservice by insulating them from ideas and beliefs that are different. I believe that there is a proper role for "safe spaces" on campus, but that public spaces on campus and entire campuses should not be "safe"and students and professors should not be able to claim part of the public space as "safe space" whenever they like. Rather, the free and sometimes disturbing exchange of ideas should be encouraged so that students leave college having been exposed to the realities of the diversity of opinions and beliefs that make up the "real world". Students SHOULD be confronted with uncomfortable, unfamiliar and challenging ideas. That's how minds develop and grow.


No. No. No.

School is for me to challenge me. It is not for you to challenge me. It is certainly not for you to determine when and how I am to be challenged.

BrianY
11-19-2015, 06:49 PM
No. No. No.

School if for me to challenge me. It is not for you to challenge me. It is certainly not for you to determine when and how I am to be challenged.

No no no yourself. You learn by being challenged - by yourself for sure but most often, and usually most effectively by others - teachers, peers, classmates, circumstances, etc. things that are beyond your control. The purpose of a teacher is to constantly challenge his students to expand their minds and their understanding, to take what and who they are and stretch beyond their self-posed limitations. If you go through life with no external challenges only doing those things and thinking about those things you determine for yourself, you will learn something, but not nearly as much as you could and should.

ahp
11-19-2015, 08:45 PM
I do understand the idea that the whole 'safe space' concept might get overwrought by those who have no capacity for critical thinking, or see it as an opportunity to build their own little administrative empires within a particular institutional setting. Vis-a-vis the whole moronic training gizmo that CW has outlined. I get this.

But in the instance of the OP the safe space outlined is for victims of sexual assault. To trivialise such a matter, or the mechanisms that are there to positively help such individuals is to piss upon them from a great height. To my mind such a trivialisation is vicious and totally uncalled for. Almost an act of hate, just because you can enunciate such an act. Like the imbeciles that draw Muhammad cartoons because they "can."

BS like "These infants need a place to be safe from ideas?" does nothing but reveal the complete ignorance of the poster of the damage that stuff like sexual assault, child abuse and hate crime inflicts.

These issues are not trivial. The damage inflicted is often life long and ANY help victims of such traumas can get is better than blithe throw-away platitudes like "Get over it!" Not everyone CAN "get over it." Some people never "get over it." Some people end it all precisely because of their inability to "get over it" because they have moronic gits telling them to "get over it." That's screwed up.



I am the poster of the "BS" and I stand by it. Why has the discourse drifted off topic to rape? That is not the issue. Rape happens. It is bad. It is traumatic. I had a girlfriend once who was date raped, and don't think she ever fully recovered.

This discussion is about young people that want to be protected and pampered because they might be exposed to "disturbing ideas". College is about ideas, disturbing and otherwise. There a person should learn to think critically, not confirmed in their prejudices. That is not education. It is indoctrination.

Two quotes: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." Harry Truman
"An unexamined life isn't worth living". Voltaire?

The thread

Ian McColgin
11-19-2015, 10:09 PM
Actually, the discussion is about young people attempting, perhaps not always smoothly, to deal with racism on campus. Can we get as far - no solution proposed in the question - that spoken, written, scrawled or however expressed racist slurs are undesirable?

Chip-skiff
11-20-2015, 12:34 AM
The grave's a fine and private place,
But none, I think, do there embrace.

—Andrew Marvell

http://www.macabrematters.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/grave-1.jpg

Too Little Time
11-20-2015, 09:39 AM
Actually, the discussion is about young people attempting, perhaps not always smoothly, to deal with racism on campus. Can we get as far - no solution proposed in the question - that spoken, written, scrawled or however expressed racist slurs are undesirable?


No no no yourself. You learn by being challenged - by yourself for sure but most often, and usually most effectively by others - teachers, peers, classmates, circumstances, etc. things that are beyond your control. The purpose of a teacher is to constantly challenge his students to expand their minds and their understanding, to take what and who they are and stretch beyond their self-posed limitations. If you go through life with no external challenges only doing those things and thinking about those things you determine for yourself, you will learn something, but not nearly as much as you could and should.

So you challenge people by scrawling racial slurs?

I can get by without that.

Keith Wilson
11-20-2015, 09:43 AM
Can we get as far - no solution proposed in the question - that spoken, written, scrawled or however expressed racist slurs are undesirable?Yes.

Osborne Russell
11-20-2015, 02:05 PM
Actually, the discussion is about young people attempting, perhaps not always smoothly, to deal with racism on campus. Can we get as far - no solution proposed in the question - that spoken, written, scrawled or however expressed racist slurs are undesirable?

No.

1. No agreement on what constitutes a racist slur. Is this one?


https://coedmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/tumblr_inline_nxkim1e84f1rian4l_500.png


2. Every reason to believe that any agreement that might be given would be fashioned into an offensive weapon by people who have no shred of decency, are anti-rational, cowardly, vicious, drunk with power and thirsty for more. The left's version of Cliven Bundy's gunmen.

3. Who's we? This is an attack on liberal values. Which side are you on?

Here's my "we": Salman Rushdie, Barack Obama, Richard Dawkins, Noam Chomsky, Jonathan Chait and Bill Maher.

Are these your "we":

1. Mizzou

"Can I get some muscle over here?"

"Hey, Hey, Ho, Ho, media has got to go!"

"We demand that the University of Missouri System President, Tim Wolfe, writes a handwritten apology to the Concerned Student 1950 . . . We want Tim Wolfe to admit to his gross negligence, allowing his driver to hit one of the demonstrators . . ."

"And you don't think censorship needs to be enforced when people's feelings are on the line?"

2. Harvard

"Let's Give Up On Academic Freedom in Favor of Justice."

"He seems to lack the ability, quite frankly, to put aside his opinions long enough to listen to the very real hurt that the community feels. He doesn't get it. And I don't want to debate. I want to talk about my pain."

3. Ithaca College

"No more dialogue, we want action!"

"When President Rochon asked for a list of demands, I told him, even if there were any, I wouldn't give them to him, because there is no confidence that he would carry them out."

4. Yale

“It is not about creating an intellectual space! It is not! Do you understand that? It is about creating a home here! You should not sleep at night! You are disgusting.”

5. Claremont McKenna College, California. Mary Spellman, Dean of Students was forced to resign because she didn't, I don't know, slit her wrists on account of the above Halloween photo.

And so on.

There cannot be an agreement based on coercion, by definition. And these people -- are they your "we"? -- present nothing but coercion. They reject anything that would move the discussion out of the realm of their emotions and into the realm of objectivity and a decent respect for the rights of others. Even inside the realm of their emotions, there's not much to discuss because the reality of them -- are they grotesquely exaggerated if not downright fake -- as well as their import, i.e. are they that important that they cannot be questioned on any basis -- cannot even be mentioned. They just plain reject discussion in principle, on the ground of their special moral status, their higher ground, their safe space.

So no agreement on anything. On this basis, we cannot agree that two plus two equals four.

BrianY
11-20-2015, 03:25 PM
So you challenge people by scrawling racial slurs?

I can get by without that.

Yes, all the time:rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm not suggesting that "scrawling racial slurs" is or should be acceptable. I am saying that students should not be so protected that they never encounter views that differ from their own. Expanding college "safe zones" to include all expression that the majority deems to be unacceptable is contradictory to the educational purpose of colleges.

George Jung
11-20-2015, 03:53 PM
Not sure if you're talking past each other purposefully, or just not following the conversation.



Two quotes: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." Harry Truman
"An unexamined life isn't worth living". Voltaire?


doesn't equate to



'scrawling racial slurs'


Conflating this has a lot of 'straw' in it.

Ian McColgin
11-21-2015, 11:02 AM
In the dozen years since Ted Danson offended almost everyone roasting Whoppie Goldberg at the Friars' Club, and almost everyone in turn offended Whoppie by sedulously not getting it, it appears that all too many people still don't get much of anything. The uproar was a perfect Whoopie moment.

Literary respect for Mark Twain's text is not racism but nor is at least discussing some softer synonyms the greatest crime in view of how constant and corrosive the racism of casual language is. We see here a lot of argument against minor "censorship" that latches on to the notion of "thin skin" without acknowledging the overwhelming atmosphere. Each straw is of negligible weight.

I am personally offended by the fact that some racially charged words will automatically be purged from a post here but give the nature of this forum, it's my judgement that that's a better rule than making it a free speech fight.

When I taught HS English I had a fight about the school's desire to use a bowdlerized version of Moby Dick. Same problem as with pea brained jerks who uncritically "improve" Huck Finn. People who can't see that those are different arguments for a different place are not doing anything to reduce societal racism.

Osborne Russell
11-21-2015, 11:08 AM
Amherst College, Massachusetts

And here you have it, according to formula: Under pain of job loss, a college President must apologize because someone else put up a poster defending free speech, and must state that "we" do not tolerate such things, because doing so "was racially insensitive". And the fascist committee will decide who goes to Maoist re-education camp for "extensive training for racial and cultural competency."



President Martin must issue a statement to the Amherst College community at large that states we do not tolerate the actions of student(s) who posted the “All Lives Matter” posters, and the “Free Speech” posters that stated that “in memoriam of the true victim of the Missouri Protests: Free Speech.” Also let the student body know that it was racially insensitive to the students of color on our college campus and beyond who are victim to racial harassment and death threats; alert them that Student Affairs may require them to go through the Disciplinary Process if a formal complaint is filed, and that they will be required to attend extensive training for racial and cultural competency.

http://www.amherstsoul.com/post/133122838315/amherst-uprising-what-we-stand-for


https://www.intellihub.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/12243514_10153274130646270_4362608361479856598_n.j pg

Ian McColgin
11-21-2015, 11:13 AM
Certainly is a good thing that all the parties at Amherst, at least all with both courage and clarity, have the freedom to so vigorously reason together.

George Jung
11-21-2015, 12:24 PM
Amherst College, Massachusetts

And here you have it, according to formula: Under pain of job loss, a college President must apologize because someone else put up a poster defending free speech, and must state that "we" do not tolerate such things, because doing so "was racially insensitive". And the fascist committee will decide who goes to Maoist re-education camp for "extensive training for racial and cultural competency."





https://www.intellihub.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/12243514_10153274130646270_4362608361479856598_n.j pg


Wow. Just.... wow.

skuthorp
11-21-2015, 03:01 PM
Fox News is a 'safe place' for many it seems. Does nothing to make people think their preconceptions might just be wrong.
But then it is a commercial venture designed to make money and a propaganda outlet for it's owners political view.

Too Little Time
11-21-2015, 03:39 PM
Yes, all the time:rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm not suggesting that "scrawling racial slurs" is or should be acceptable. I am saying that students should not be so protected that they never encounter views that differ from their own. Expanding college "safe zones" to include all expression that the majority deems to be unacceptable is contradictory to the educational purpose of colleges.

Again you say you are the one who makes these choices for others. I find that wrong.


"The unexamined life isn't worth living". (Socrates for those who don't have the internet.)

Mark O.
11-21-2015, 04:38 PM
cry-bully Ha! That is a good description!
I would like to hear a lawyers take on whether the speaker in this video used duress or coercion to hold the audience. I think the large group of protesters enhanced the credibility of the threat. At what point does this become false imprisonment of the audience? Statements at the 1 minute mark in video. http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article45667803.html

BrianY
11-21-2015, 04:52 PM
Again you say you are the one who makes these choices for others. I find that wrong.


"The unexamined life isn't worth living". (Socrates for those who don't have the internet.)

The on!y way that one can avoid being exposd to other views and beliefs is to totally isolate yourself from contact with other people. If you think that living in such a bubble is good for people, than we have nothing further to discuss. Expressing one's views within earshot or sight of someone else is not " making choices" for anyone else. On the contrary having speech codes and limiting expression is actually the imposition of YOUR choices on others. You or whatever authority is setting the rules are/is making the choices for others - the choice of what people can say and what others can hear/see. That's a lot of power to grab for yourself.

As for educational settings, how do you propose that a teacher should teach if they cannot make choices about what materials, themes, subjects, etc. to present to their students? How can students make these choices on their own ? Self-directed learning is a wonderful thing, but it does require direction and guidance from some authority figure. Somebody as to choose what students need to know. Otherwise, we'd have a society filled with ignorant people who don't have a common basic education.

Too Little Time
11-21-2015, 07:34 PM
The on!y way that one can avoid being exposd to other views and beliefs is to totally isolate yourself from contact with other people. If you think that living in such a bubble is good for people, than we have nothing further to discuss. Expressing one's views within earshot or sight of someone else is not " making choices" for anyone else. On the contrary having speech codes and limiting expression is actually the imposition of YOUR choices on others. You or whatever authority is setting the rules are/is making the choices for others - the choice of what people can say and what others can hear/see. That's a lot of power to grab for yourself.

As for educational settings, how do you propose that a teacher should teach if they cannot make choices about what materials, themes, subjects, etc. to present to their students? How can students make these choices on their own ? Self-directed learning is a wonderful thing, but it does require direction and guidance from some authority figure. Somebody as to choose what students need to know. Otherwise, we'd have a society filled with ignorant people who don't have a common basic education.

You still insist on making decisions for other people. You don't seem to realize that.

Ian McColgin
11-21-2015, 07:38 PM
Educating people, exposing them to critical ideas, is not make decisions for them. If done rightly, it puts them in position to make decisions for themselves.

Mark O.
11-21-2015, 07:47 PM
You still insist on making decisions for other people. You don't seem to realize that. Can you elaborate on your position a little more, please, I don't see how that is the case.

If one person says others shouldn't have a say... and another person says everyone should have a say... I don't see the logic of the first person saying that the second person wants it his way.

BrianY
11-21-2015, 10:03 PM
Can you elaborate on your position a little more, please, I don't see how that is the case.

If one person says others shouldn't have a say... and another person says everyone should have a say... I don't see the logic of the first person saying that the second person wants it his way.

Yes, please explain what you mean because it is very unclear

Too Little Time
11-21-2015, 10:15 PM
Can you elaborate on your position a little more, please, I don't see how that is the case.

If one person says others shouldn't have a say... and another person says everyone should have a say... I don't see the logic of the first person saying that the second person wants it his way.


Yes, please explain what you mean because it is very unclear

I have done that in #59 and #63.

Don't I or any other student have the right to the education he wants and pays for? You seem to think not. You seem to think I and others have to face the challenges you pick for me to face.

Ian McColgin
11-21-2015, 10:26 PM
I guess it had to happen. Is sanctimonious racism worse than regular?

https://www.facebook.com/Illinois-White-Student-Union-1702800449939426/

BrianY
11-21-2015, 10:35 PM
I have done that in #59 and #63.

Don't I or any other student have the right to the education he wants and pays for? You seem to think not. You seem to think I and others have to face the challenges you pick for me to face.

I have no idea how one can receive an education without being confronted with beliefs and ideas that are different from one's own. I cannot conceive of any method of education that doesn't challenge students with new ideas and concepts chosen by the teachers. Someone other than the student must decide what is taught, right? Perhaps you can describe an educational system where the student determines everything - every idea, every concept, every class, every subject - that he is exposed to and where he gets to pick and choose how the content is conveyed to him and what challenges he faces. That would be an extraordinarily odd system indeed and one entirely unlike life in the "real world".

As a college student, you have the right and ability to walk away from or otherwise ignore any ideas and challenges you don't want to deal with.

Mark O.
11-21-2015, 11:35 PM
I am so happy this is my daughters senior year at FSU, and she has a job lined up in the real world (South Korea) and my son is joining the Marines, with plans on applying to the MECEP program. He is smart (2000 SAT 93 ASVAB) and a natural leader (Crew team Capt., Squad leader of DEP poolees). He doesn't have a racist bone in his body. Girlfriend is half Jamaican/ half German. He would have no patience for the cry-bullies who seem to be overrunning the colleges now.

I think what is happening now is the result of years of coddling by Universities. The expression that comes to mind... "the chickens have come home to roost"

Too Little Time
11-22-2015, 09:28 AM
As a college student, you have the right and ability to walk away from or otherwise ignore any ideas and challenges you don't want to deal with.

I think that is what the concept of a safe place is intended to facilitate. (And I reread the link in the original post to make sure.)

But i could put your position in a different light. If you want to express ideas certain ideas or provide certain challenges, you have the right and ability to go elsewhere.

George Jung
11-22-2015, 09:42 AM
Interesting - expression of ideas, but only in 'certain' (determined by who?) places.

Sounds like censorship.

Osborne Russell
11-22-2015, 01:23 PM
Ha! That is a good description!
I would like to hear a lawyers take on whether the speaker in this video used duress or coercion to hold the audience. I think the large group of protesters enhanced the credibility of the threat. At what point does this become false imprisonment of the audience? Statements at the 1 minute mark in video. http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article45667803.html

"You're going to sit and you're going to listen!" The hunger for power.

I'm guessing that when you add some threat of force it becomes a crime. How about a threat of losing your job? Would that be blackmail?

Osborne Russell
11-22-2015, 02:05 PM
I. . . and a natural leader (Crew team Capt., Squad leader of DEP poolees).

He may be a natural leader but I think experience in leading -- and following -- is more important. In my view, a big part of these people's problem is that the typical life story is nothing but school until they're 25 years old or more. Maybe a part time job. Adult psychology cannot form without the experience of real responsibility. In this sense, they are uneducated. I think they hunger for it and at this advanced stage in their maturation, they can wait no longer, any and all impediments must be swept aside, power now.



I think what is happening now is the result of years of coddling by Universities. The expression that comes to mind... "the chickens have come home to roost"

If you go straight from no-responsibility student to no-responsibility Professor, it's just PhD (Piled Higher And Deeper). If you are unfortunate enough to become an administrator, you are out of your depth. So they bring in "professional" administrators, who are, guess what, people who, for practical purposes, went to school all their lives, ending with an advanced degree in administration. Maybe they got married and are raising children, which is certainly serious responsibility. Other things being equal, they will be the best administrators. Sure would be a shame if, having actual responsibility for spouses and children, they were forced out of their jobs by The Revolt Of The Children, who feel they have it coming for having devoted their lives to institutions that are devoted to perpetuating racism and all manner of social evil.

But I wonder if there isn't a more immediate cause for the coddling. Typically at a college there is a Board or Council or something, the existence of which supports the proposition that the college operates in the public interest, not just the interest of those who profit by its operation. This Board or Council knows that professors and administrators are a cost --a dime a dozen maybe, but still a cost. Students are revenue. Even administrators that are too dull to figure out where this leaves them will have an intuition of it.

Now add sports. No football game Saturday --> $1 million lost with multiples of that to follow quickly --> Faculty and staff side with protesters --> Governor and State Legislature -- even Republicans -- side with protesters.

Planned or not, everything works toward the maintenance of an atmosphere of immaturity, because keeping the students is money.

Mark O.
11-22-2015, 03:25 PM
Students are revenue. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. It's a balancing act for the universities, but I can imagine a backlash from the common sense parents who start to question why they are paying their hard earned tuition money to the universities who allow a this PC stuff to run amok. How many parents and student have written Mizzou off their list for next year?

Osborne Russell
11-22-2015, 08:37 PM
It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. It's a balancing act for the universities, but I can imagine a backlash from the common sense parents who start to question why they are paying their hard earned tuition money to the universities who allow a this PC stuff to run amok. How many parents and student have written Mizzou off their list for next year?

Parents could turn it around but they would have to show up.

Seeing as how they've mortgaged off their lives to send junior away and are tired at night from working all day to get out from underneath it, I can see why they aren't doing it already.

Junior speaks of emancipation. What emancipation is there for her parents?

Osborne Russell
11-24-2015, 12:20 PM
I think that is what the concept of a safe place is intended to facilitate. (And I reread the link in the original post to make sure.)

But i could put your position in a different light. If you want to express ideas certain ideas or provide certain challenges, you have the right and ability to go elsewhere.

This is a common misunderstanding of the theory of human rights, though it's been settled for centuries. I thought you were joking but I guess not.

The right to speak does not imply a right not to hear.

Ian McColgin
11-24-2015, 04:14 PM
The right to speak does not imply the obligation to make sense.

Osborne Russell
11-25-2015, 11:54 AM
The right to speak does not imply the obligation to make sense.

The right to free speech like other human rights is not a matter of accommodating the conflicting interests of individuals and no amount of loose talk about rights coming with responsibilities can make it so. They are about accommodating the rights of the individual with the rights of the of the group, not the group defined any kind of way, but only as manifested by the state.

Therefore there is no right to be free of speech implied by the right to speak. It's not balanced, between individuals, because it's not a balancing between individuals, it's a balance between the state and the individual.

Too Little Time
11-25-2015, 01:13 PM
The right to speak does not imply a right not to hear.
he concept of a safe place is about providing a right to not hear. You may object, but since there is no obligation to listen your objections are without any support.


it's a balance between the state and the individual.
This comment supports my position. Safe places do not involve the state at all.

Ian McColgin
11-25-2015, 01:18 PM
Osborne, thank you for validating a tossed off quip.

Osborne Russell
11-25-2015, 01:46 PM
he concept of a safe place is about providing a right to not hear.

Rights are natural or created by law.



You may object, but since there is no obligation to listen your objections are without any support.

Now you're talking like a Republican, modern variety.



This comment supports my position. Safe places do not involve the state at all.

If they didn't, that would be one reason they afford no rights. But they do. State licensing and state money, as in University of Missouri. Don't be thick.

Osborne Russell
11-25-2015, 01:47 PM
Osborne, thank you for validating a tossed off quip.

I'd say you're welcome but I don't know what you mean by "validating".

Ian McColgin
11-25-2015, 02:03 PM
2b, covers it.

validate, verb val·i·date \ˈva-lə-ˌdāt\
val·i·dat·edval·i·dat·ing

Definition of VALIDATE
transitive verb

1a: to make legally valid : ratify
b: to grant official sanction to by marking <validated her passport>
c: to confirm the validity of (an election); also : to declare (a person) elected

2a: to support or corroborate on a sound or authoritative basis <experiments designed to validate the hypothesis>
b: to recognize, establish, or illustrate the worthiness or legitimacy of <validate his concerns>