PDA

View Full Version : "Whirlwind"



Jay Greer
11-03-2015, 03:53 PM
I should like to thank WB and Roger Taylor for the excellent article on the L. Franchis Herreshoff J Boat "Whirlwind". In truth, the boat was so advanced in design that the owners and crew did not have the know how to make this fine boat perform as LFH had intednded.
I well remember his comment, "The damn fools wouldn't follow my advise and that is how they lost their chance with the cup."
Jay

John Meachen
11-03-2015, 05:33 PM
I agree with the sentiment Jay expresses.An illuminating article and another boat added to the list of half models I would like to carve.

Jay Greer
11-09-2015, 12:17 PM
I might add here that Roger Taylor is the author of series off books on wooden boats, the first of which is entitled "Good Boats". In these books he makes astute and singular comments on many varied designs. Roger also knew L. Francis Herreshoff.
Jay

Russ Manheimer
11-10-2015, 11:20 AM
Hi Jay,

Second your comments on Roger Taylor's fine body of work. Have you or anyone else read his new biography of LFH (http://www.mysticseaport.org/news/2015/l-francis-herreshoff-yacht-designer/) . Here's the cover photo:

http://www.mysticseaport.org/wp-content/uploads/LFH_COVER-315x392.jpg

Just ordered a copy from Mystic of what appears to be the first of two volumes. Can't wait. Also, he'll be speaking at the Herreshoff Museum in Bristol on December 1st about this new book and his research. I just may go.

Russ

Q.Foster
11-10-2015, 02:22 PM
Note that you can get a copy of this new book from the WoodenBoat Store.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/product/book-l-francis-herreshoff-yacht-designer

Makes sense to support the people who offer the Forum to you.

Russ Manheimer
11-10-2015, 03:24 PM
Queene,

Right you are and I usually do but it was Mystic's turn this time. Even so, I just purchased a second copy from WB as a Christmas gift.

Dues paid.

Russ

rbgarr
11-10-2015, 04:10 PM
Also, he'll be speaking at the Herreshoff Museum in Bristol on December 1st about this new book and his research. I just may go.

Russ

Margaret and I were just discussing going to Bristol for that talk.

Russ Manheimer
11-10-2015, 04:16 PM
Well Dave, that just may push the decision meter to Yes.

Jay Greer
11-11-2015, 02:39 PM
Russ, I was aware of Roger's intent to do the bio on LFH but did not know he has published the first part of it. Roger is a friend with whom I correspond with occasionally. How ever we have not touched base for a while and I am happy to hear the news you have provided. I will be buying a copy of his work today.
Thanks,
Jay

rbgarr
01-06-2016, 11:35 PM
http://i68.tinypic.com/ad2g0k.jpg

tprice
01-12-2016, 05:18 PM
I do have to wonder if LFH was such a pill that the owners didn't want him on the boat? he seems to have been an odd duck.

Thad
01-12-2016, 07:23 PM
If by pill you mean self righteous egotist, I think that defines the others more than himself. The best sailors I've sailed with are always ready to hear a suggestion and if she isn't going well to try something different. And here was the man who had designed the whole vessel as well as being who he was.

tprice
01-12-2016, 08:48 PM
[QUOTE=Thad;4765983]If by pill you mean self righteous egotist, I think that defines the others more than himself. The best sailors I've sailed with are always ready to hear a suggestion and if she isn't going well to try something different. And here was the man who had designed the whole vessel as well as being who he was.[/QUOTE

not saying what should have been. I know that a disruptive or unpleasant member on a team can find himself off a race boat pretty quick no matter who he is. Whirlwinds after guard were pretty saavy guys and wouldn't exclude the designer without reason.

rbgarr
01-12-2016, 10:34 PM
I don't think they excluded him as much as he decided to absent himself of his own accord. The reasons for that are suggested in Roger Taylor's biography, which is based in large part on letters of LFH's. There was more to it than things that happened afloat only.

alrotch
01-15-2016, 01:21 AM
I think Roger Taylor is an excellent writer and the "Good Boat" books are a wonderful blend of sailing stories, personal memoir, as well as great primers for learning how to look at plans and think about how designs work. Thanks for the heads up!

Chris249
01-17-2016, 04:07 AM
If by pill you mean self righteous egotist, I think that defines the others more than himself. The best sailors I've sailed with are always ready to hear a suggestion and if she isn't going well to try something different. And here was the man who had designed the whole vessel as well as being who he was.

Yes, but LFH may not have been one of those good sailors, since he doesn't seem to have always been ready to respect others enough to hear their suggestions. His letters show someone who was dismissive of Sherman Hoyt and some other great sailors. He also wouldn't, in a different area, "hear suggestions" from Olin Stephens about designs for example.

Thad
01-17-2016, 09:17 AM
All may be true, but in the Whirlwind story it seemed the powers aboard wouldn't try his suggestions. Now they may not have liked him or his manner or something but if they wouldn't try his suggestions and they were losing, that's what they and we get -- no idea of the boat's potential.

gilberj
01-18-2016, 02:23 PM
I am with Thad on this.
LFH may have missed the mark with the new boat, too many untried innovations. Or perhaps he really did have a real potential winner, and he could see exactly what was happening. The Afterguard should have had some adult discussions with the designer, on getting the bugs worked out. They did not apparently even try, so the blame rests with them.

Jay Greer
01-20-2016, 01:48 PM
The bottom line, is that the many of the innovations and materials that LFH incorporated into the design were obviated by Loyds, the insurance underwriters. One was, their insistance on materials being used for the construction of Whirlwind's keel that were not as stiff as that which LFH had specified. The result was that the keel flexed more than it should have and that, when combined with strapping her down when going to weather, resulted in slowing the boat.
Jay

gilberj
01-20-2016, 01:57 PM
Sounds like you read Roger Taylors book Jay. I am still waiting for mine in the mail. I do remember reading something about the controversy relating to the keel structure, though I did not realize it was not rigid enough.

Jay Greer
01-20-2016, 02:15 PM
That information came from Greg Jones's book "Herreshoff Boats". I am just getting into Roger's book. It is a good read! LFH called for Phosphor Bronze. Loyds changed it to Everdure. Phosphor is much stiffer but more brittle. Nathaniel was a great advocate of phosphor bronze as well. I would surmise that is where LFH became aquainted with it.
Jay

Jon R
01-21-2016, 12:47 PM
To TPrice's point: Some of the afterguard were savvy guys. The guy with the money had sailed as crew on Star Boats. That's it. Now he was skippering the largest, most complex J class yacht in existence. A big difference.

To any inormation that came from Greg Jones' book; when I got to my third glaring inaccuracy and a photo of the J class yankee identified as LFH's R boat of the same name, I put it on my shelf and can't bring myself to pass it on to others as I don't want to pass missinformation to anyone else.

Now, I have always lamented the near miss of Yankee in 1934, but feel that in 1930, Whirlwind should have been the one to beat.
She was scrapped in 1935 out of embarressment, not the impending war. A sad end to the greatest of the 1930 Js.

Jay Greer
01-21-2016, 01:37 PM
Yes Jon, There are inaccuracy's to be found in Greg Jones's book especially in the reference to the use of Phosphor Bronze as opposed to his statement, in truth, it is much harder not softer than Everdure. Phosphor used to come in three hardnesses, hard, medium and soft. I would surmise that LFH specified hard for the ballast keel support plating or framing of the J boat "Whirlwind" I find the information Jones printed to be iffy at best. To set the record straight, the Herreshoff R boat "Yankee" was beaten at the R Boat Nationals at Larchmont in 1929 by Matt Walsh who skippered the Ted Geary designed R boat "Pirate" in that series. Matt who was a native of Canso Nova Scotia, migrated to California at an early age and started and owned the Garbutt and Walsh Boat Works on Terminal Island CA. "Pirate" was built for Star Boat skipper Tommy Lee but, had been sold and belonged to O. K. Hunsaker when she won the R class champion ships at Larchmont with Matt Walsh at her helm.
Jay