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View Full Version : High Time To Do MORE Tensting In School;s



Nicholas Scheuer
10-30-2015, 06:14 AM
Not about learning or teaching (whichever side your bread is buttered on), but psychological testing in hope of discerning exactly who may bring a gun to school with plans to kill a few classmates.

Just read a story about another kid in Dallas who was caught after he drew up a plan to stage his own day of infamy. The article reported that it was the 450th incident THIS YEAR! We need to get to the bottom of this American school shooting spree before we have to start sending kids off to their school buses wearing bullet-proof vests for algebra class.

LOOKING FORWARD (don'cha love those new bywords?), we need to chop down this tree, because it's WAY too late to nip it in the bud.

So what's'yer poison? Multiple choice? Essay? No, that only works for those who can write. Do we let so-called Educators design the tests? or do we employ Law Enforcement or the US Army because they know more about firearms. Maybe the NRA sould give it a shot, eh?

Peerie Maa
10-30-2015, 06:21 AM
P!!$!ng around with the symptoms rather than curing the disease.

May be you need to start teaching all kids that killing people is a bad thing, all of the time, by anyone.

Garret
10-30-2015, 06:27 AM
P!!$!ng around with the symptoms rather than curing the disease.

May be you need to start teaching all kids that killing people is a bad thing, all of the time, by anyone.

When 1/2 the TV shows are about murders & most video games teach kids that killing has no consequences? When a TV station gets hit with a $600k fine for showing a woman's breast for a few seconds during a football game & yet it's fine that another station at the exact same time has Arnold Schwarzenegger mowing down people with a machine gun?

Peerie Maa
10-30-2015, 06:43 AM
Yep, the US is screwed.

Now having identified that you are a mess, is the US going to do anything about it?

Apparently farmers wives were able to energise Prohibition, so you in the US can get the grass roots energised to stop the shooting.


Following the war, the dry crusade was revived by the national Prohibition Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_Party), founded in 1869, and the Woman's Christian Temperance Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman%27s_Christian_Temperance_Union) (WCTU), founded in 1873. The WCTU advocated the prohibition of alcohol as a method for preventing abuse from alcoholic husbands via education.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States#cite_note-22) WCTU members believed that if their organization could reach children with its message, it could create a dry sentiment leading to prohibition.

Garret
10-30-2015, 06:50 AM
Yep, the US is screwed.

Now having identified that you are a mess, is the US going to do anything about it?


No - because many here do not see anything wrong with the status quo & many others just don't care.

slug
10-30-2015, 08:13 AM
I would be a good idea to train teachers to recognize changes in student behavior and give these teachers a clear chain of command for reporting odd behavior to school superiors.

Garret
10-30-2015, 08:21 AM
I would be a good idea to train teachers to recognize changes in student behavior and give these teachers a clear chain of command for reporting odd behavior to school superiors.

All the teachers I know have that. The problem is that once the administrators have the info - what can they do with it? Teachers can also talk directly to parents, but if the parents are either as bad as the kid or in denial, that does no good.

slug
10-30-2015, 08:30 AM
I dont know... Sounds like the chain of command has failed.

Garret
10-30-2015, 08:39 AM
I dont know... Sounds like the chain of command has failed.

Where does a school administrator go with "We have a kid acting oddly"? It's not a crime - so the police can't do anything. What do you suggest?

slug
10-30-2015, 08:45 AM
I would expect that the administrator has a superior and that once it gets to the administrators superior...action is taken.

What is this action ?

i dont know

Nicholas Scheuer
10-30-2015, 08:49 AM
I'm talking about testing that yields a result like "THIS KID IS ABOUT TO BRING A GUN TO SCHOOL AND EMPTY A COUPLE OF MAGAZINES IN CLASS!". Not some mickey mouse test like "the kid's behavior is a bit odd".

Nicholas Scheuer
10-30-2015, 08:59 AM
This shouldn't be a real difficult nut to crack. We know that these kids are not terribly original; they are all doing about the same thing. They know where to get a gun (or a few) if they want one. They know where the their targets are all sitting nicely in rows.

The USA is all ape-sh-t over "Terrorists". How can you terrorize a parent worse than they send their kid off to meet the school bus with a nice lunch and a kiss, and before noon the radio is reporting a lockdown at their kid's school?

Peerie Maa
10-30-2015, 10:01 AM
No - because many here do not see anything wrong with the status quo & many others just don't care.

So start a campaign, on Facebook maybe, where all of the grieving mothers, sisters and daughters can get together and start a movement and campaign the issue.
The WCTU managed when the fastest method of communication was a letter, now we have instant media, on-line petitions, all manner of tools.

PhaseLockedLoop
10-30-2015, 10:14 AM
Not about learning or teaching (whichever side your bread is buttered on), but psychological testing in hope of discerning exactly who may bring a gun to school with plans to kill a few classmates.

Great idea. Let's expand it. Give everybody psychological testing to discern exactly who might commit a crime. (I love the use of the word "exactly" in this context.) Result: no more crime. Hell, the drone program is doing it already overseas.

Nicholas Scheuer
10-30-2015, 03:26 PM
I wrote "exactly" because identifying renegade school shooters is a comparatively small nut to crack compared to crime in general.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-30-2015, 03:45 PM
I wrote "exactly" because identifying renegade school shooters is a comparatively small nut to crack compared to crime in general.

You have or know of such a test?

How long does it take to administer?
What is the False Positive rate?
What is the False Negative rate?
On which population groups has it been tested?

Mad Scientist
10-30-2015, 04:19 PM
There are psychological tests available which, when used appropriately, can be used to identify an adult 'psychopath'. There are no tests which can determine which tiny % of psychopaths will turn out to be serial killers.

I can't imagine obtaining any sort of meaningful result from testing adolescents - they all seem crazy to me!

Tom

CWSmith
10-30-2015, 04:34 PM
Not about learning or teaching (whichever side your bread is buttered on), but psychological testing ....

I have been thinking that increasingly and more diverse than just shooters. We can all use a little mental housekeeping from time to time.

Nicholas Scheuer
10-30-2015, 05:04 PM
I am not qualified to design psychological tests. That does not mean I am unable to suspect a relatively narrow band of factors which influence these nut cases.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-30-2015, 05:15 PM
Dream on.

If anyone seriously thinks they can create a test which will usefully spot the ten or fifteen nutters in a population of forty some million without stigmatising several thousand innocents, then have at it.

Garret
10-30-2015, 05:40 PM
Dream on.

If anyone seriously thinks they can create a test which will usefully spot the ten or fifteen nutters in a population of forty some million without stigmatising several thousand innocents, then have at it.

And becoming the "Thought Police". This sure sounds 1984ish to me - but them Mr. Orwell called a lot of things.

CWSmith
10-30-2015, 05:57 PM
It amazes me that simple psychological testing brings out fear in some.

If we said the testing would reveal those children who are physically or psychologically abused, would it still bother you?

If we said it would uncover learning problems before they could cripple a child's future, would you still be afraid of it?

If we said it would uncover a child's fear so they could be helped to overcome what no coach or teacher can diagnose, would it be worthwhile?

Peerie Maa
10-30-2015, 06:09 PM
It amazes me that simple psychological testing brings out fear in some.



It is such a mixed bag of pseudo science and crappy results. There are fads that come and go for using psychological testing in industry as a recruitment and promotion tool.
A classic example was in my own company. The HR manager took delight in sharing his experience. He had started as an engineer and was moved into HR due to a demonstrated talent. The Psychometric test decided that he was best suited to banking.

Baboom. :D

Garret
10-30-2015, 06:10 PM
It amazes me that simple psychological testing brings out fear in some.

If we said the testing would reveal those children who are physically or psychologically abused, would it still bother you?

If we said it would uncover learning problems before they could cripple a child's future, would you still be afraid of it?

If we said it would uncover a child's fear so they could be helped to overcome what no coach or teacher can diagnose, would it be worthwhile?


It's not the testing that bothers me at all & am all for private tests. Some "I know what's best for you" person getting a hold of the results is an entirely different story though.

CWSmith
10-30-2015, 06:23 PM
It's not the testing that bothers me at all & am all for private tests. Some "I know what's best for you" person getting a hold of the results is an entirely different story though.

So we sequester the information the same way we limit access to medical records.

Garret
10-30-2015, 06:53 PM
So we sequester the information the same way we limit access to medical records.

And how does that fit with the thread's premise of getting the info out there?

CWSmith
10-30-2015, 07:10 PM
And how does that fit with the thread's premise of getting the info out there?

It never says "getting it out there." Besides, I don't really care what the OP says.

If you tell your therapist you have anxiety, or you are depressed, you can't focus on difficult tasks, or you drink, or you have sex with the woman next door, it's all confidential. If you tell them you plan on killing the kids at school tomorrow, you get reported. How is that a bad thing?

Garret
10-30-2015, 07:20 PM
It never says "getting it out there." Besides, I don't really care what the OP says.

If you tell your therapist you have anxiety, or you are depressed, you can't focus on difficult tasks, or you drink, or you have sex with the woman next door, it's all confidential. If you tell them you plan on killing the kids at school tomorrow, you get reported. How is that a bad thing?

No!

But that's not what the others in this thread have been saying.

Nicholas Scheuer
10-30-2015, 07:28 PM
I once took a 3-hr battery of psyc tests in a reputable Industrial Psychology Office as part of an employment application. Many of the questions were designed to ferret out duplicity. I was furnished the same test results which were furnished my prospective employer (I got the job) and was surprised that the analysis rang so true in spite of the fact that I had never before considered some of the key points in so many words. In an industrial career working for a number of firms spanning 45 years, it is no surprise to me that the jobs in which I performed the best were the ones which most closely fit my talents, as outlined in the terms reflected in the psyc evaluation rather than the words I usually used on my resume.

I don't believe this is space science. As I posted at the outset, these cases of school shooters seems to fall within a rather narrow band of variables, based on media reports we read in the aftermath.

CWSmith
10-30-2015, 07:37 PM
But that's not what the others in this thread have been saying.

I am a voice in the wilderness...

Seriously, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I've had students with drinking problems, depression, and lately anxiety. I have to be careful what I say to them, but some regular mental health checkups not unlike a yearly physical would do wonders. I think a healthier society would pay for the testing.


I once took a 3-hr battery of psyc tests ...

I've never had that sort of thing, but I suspect it would be interesting. I also think I'd rather not share the results with my employer.


I don't believe this is space science. As I posted at the outset, these cases of school shooters seems to fall within a rather narrow band of variables, based on media reports we read in the aftermath.

I think these kids can be spotted pretty easily. I doubt that at their age they can hide it. A well-trained expert would probably spot them 2 minutes into the interview.

Nicholas Scheuer
10-30-2015, 09:32 PM
The prospective employer paid for the testing, so results of course were shared. I believe comprehensive psyc testing could discern between anxiety cases and full-blown whackos.

Concerning my employer, the president who wanted the testing done turned out to be fairly crazy himself. Ever sat one & one in an executive office and had a 6" hunk of alum extrusion thrown at you? Fortunately he was no Sandy Kofacs and it missed by a wide margin and bounced off the wall behind me.

Jim Bow
10-30-2015, 10:03 PM
Here's some info. Most guns used in schools come from family or friends. Perhaps locking them up might help. Or not having any at all.
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/youthviolence/schoolviolence/savd.html

Nicholas Carey
10-30-2015, 10:42 PM
May be you need to start teaching all kids that killing people is a bad thing, all of the time, by anyone.



When 1/2 the TV shows are about murders & most video games teach kids that killing has no consequences?

When a TV station gets hit with a $600k fine for showing a woman's breast for a few seconds during a football game & yet it's fine that another station at the exact same time has Arnold Schwarzenegger mowing down people with a machine gun?

My dad (WW2 combat vet) had a simple rule: no toy guns, period. Full-stop. The idea was you shouldn't learn to think of firearms as toys. He had no problem with learning to use firearms at a reasonable age.

These days, you'd have to extend that rule to cover video games, esp. 1st person shooters, movies, cable TV, etc. and good luck policing things when the sprouts are at their friends' houses.

Something has definitely changed. Contrary to the popular opinion, here in the USA, guns are far harder to obtain than they used to be (pre-'68, you could buy them by mail-order: now there's background checks, waiting periods, etc.). Yet people weren't doing the sort of mass murders that are now so common. Something has changed. What?

Lt. Col. David Grossman lays it out for you in his brilliant On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society[ (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78127.On_Killing). Historically, so,divers are loathe to kill. In WW2, maybe 25% of US combatants would fire their weapons, or they'd fire and aim to miss. Post-WW2, the Pentagon started using operant conditioning and other techniques to overcome people's natural aversion to killing. By Vietnam, they'd gotten the percentage of soldiers willing to kill up to about 90%.

He makes a good argument that 1st person shooter video games do a proper job of emulating the sort of operant conditioning used so successfully by the military to overcome the aversion to killing and ties that to the spate of mass murders and school shootings that began just before he published his book.

He carries his argument further in Stop Teaching Our Kids To Kill: A Call to Action Against TV, Movie & Video Game Violence (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18077877-stop-teaching-our-kids-to-kill-revised-and-updated-edition), which, I must admit, I have not read.

It's also worth noting that apparently a surprising number of the shooters involved in recent school shootings were on, had recently been on, various ADHD and ADD drugs. Many of which list "rage" and "anger" as side effects, especially when coming off or switching drugs, or when adjusting the dosage.



This book