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genglandoh
10-05-2015, 06:12 AM
With all the migrants going to Europe should businesses or the Government make it a requirement to learn the native Language to get a job?

Chris Coose
10-05-2015, 06:15 AM
No. I've never been asked or required to learn Abenaki. I get along pretty well.

Nicholas Scheuer
10-05-2015, 06:24 AM
How long do you think they should be unemployed while learning the language?

Ian McColgin
10-05-2015, 06:41 AM
People learn, if not so much the immigrants themselves, certainly their children. Even in ethnic ghettos. Anyone who has done utility collection work, for example, is well used to a child's voice on the phone handling translations services for their parents.

It's one of those things you really don't need to worry about. Just as you don't need to worry about influxes of immigrants taking jobs. As studies - nicely isolated and controlled by the historical circumstances - of Florida during the waves of Cuban immigrants show, the immigrants actually are a population that expands both consumer and labor force populations and causes net economic growth.

There are, of course, issues. Immigrants are the energetic, the bold, the determined. Those are qualities that lead to successful economic actors but the line between capitalism and crime is a bit fine and, face it, energetic and bold and determined are good qualities for a successful criminal career as well. We must accept that even if not criminal when they arrive, some number of immigrants will become every bit as criminal as all other Americans. Some become respectable, even philanthropic, a generation or two down the line. Others get hanged as horse thieves. All part of the mix and we should not be criticizing immigrants or be afraid of them because they are so like us.

slug
10-05-2015, 08:04 AM
[QUOTE=genglandoh;4672474]With all the migrants going to Europe should businesses or the Government make it a requirement to learn the native Language to get a job?[/QUOTE


of course...language and culture.

One reason why you screen immigrants before admitting them is to determine thier qualifications and chance of contributing to society

language skills , cultural suitabilty and education are High on the list of qualifications.

if immigrants..true asylum seekers...lack these qualification then it is your societies obligation to provide them with these skills.
it take years..perhaps one whole generation , to intergrate an immigrant. Intergration means invisable...just an ordinary citizen

BrianY
10-05-2015, 08:05 AM
There was a story on NPR over the weekend about immigrants and language. It generally goes like this: The immigrants retain their native language and learn very little of the local tongue. Their children are usually multi-lingual speaking their parents' language at home and the local language everywhere else. The grandchildren don't learn much if anything of their grandparents' language and are fully fluent in the the local language.

You can try to rush this natural progression by focusing on the children of immigrants but it's really difficult to get adults to learn a new language.

Katherine
10-05-2015, 08:15 AM
I don't know that it should be a requirement, but it would make day to day communication more efficient.

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 08:20 AM
With all the migrants going to Europe should businesses or the Government make it a requirement to learn the native Language to get a job?

Absolutely not.

Language is the medium of necessary communication. When a different language is needed to communicate, it will be learned.

At the turn of the last century, millions of immigrants, mostly from Europe, entered this country, and they settled into communities where their 'landzhaftmen' (counrtymen) had already settled. If English was not required, to be able to work and live, then it was not learned... but the children of these immigrants went to public schools and learned English. The parents may or may not have eventually learned English, but it made no difference to their ability to be productive and industrious citizens... and their children certainly were.

My paternal grandmother arrived on these shores from a small village in what is now Belarus, near Minsk. She spoke no English... and at the time of her death in 1969, her English was decidedly poor, but good enough to converse with her grandchildren. The only thing she learned to write, was her name, in order to sign checks. She lived in a small section of my hometown where Jews from Eastern Europe had settled.... decidedly on the 'wrong side of the tracks', but nonetheless, she ran a small business (a candy store), her husband worked as a painter for the nearby refinery, and she raised three sons who started a successful business and became relatively well off. Her inability to speak English had NO effect on her ability to be a citizen, run a business, raise children, or be a productive taxpaying citizen.

This country is infinitely richer for having taken in so many immigrants, with diverse backgrounds and a multitude of languages... and countries with no ethnic and language diversity are the poorer for it. The push to compel English is nothing more than prejudice and discrimination. Language doesn't determine the merit of a citizen.

Reynard38
10-05-2015, 08:24 AM
A legal requirement? Maybe not. As a condition for employment? Absolutely.

David G
10-05-2015, 08:24 AM
Should dingbat be required to register with the local police office... and wear an ankle bracelet for monitoring purposes?

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 08:24 AM
A legal requirement? Maybe not. As a condition for employment? Absolutely.

Are you suggesting that there are no jobs, for which, the ability to speak English is NOT a requirement?

slug
10-05-2015, 08:26 AM
Gee...how many languages are you going to vote in ? How many languages will you translate law into ?
How many languages will you host in the school system ?

the same goes with culture. There is no such thing as multiculture. Liberal crap.. There is only British culture, Italian culture, American culture.

if you move to Italy this year I strongly suggest that you adopt the Italian culture and language.

CWSmith
10-05-2015, 08:27 AM
A legal requirement? Maybe not. As a condition for employment? Absolutely.

In my shop right now we have Germans, French, Maltese, Iranians, Iraqis, Chinese, Indians, and a few others.

I cannot learn all those languages. We need to meet in one common vocabulary and because we are here it's English. Anyone who claims that immigrants can get away without learning the language of the majority have only limited experience with a very few languages.

slug
10-05-2015, 08:28 AM
Should dingbat be required to register with the local police office... and wear an ankle bracelet for monitoring purposes?
As a foreigner , I am registered. My movements are restricted. Standard operating procedure in the world

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 08:32 AM
Anyone who claims that immigrants can get away without learning the language of the majority have only limited experience with a very few languages.

Anyone who claims that immigrants cannot assimilate and merge into our already-diverse culture as the need arises, must be ignorant of history.

David G
10-05-2015, 08:32 AM
A legal requirement? Maybe not. As a condition for employment? Absolutely.

What Norman said.

This theoretical requirement is both silly and self-defeating.

One example - when I worked as a PM in Austin, we had a clean-up crew. All immigrants from Mexico. They were all vetted and legal, but only two of the group spoke English - and one well enough to be their 'foreman'. They were a tight-knit group. Hard working, reliable, thoughtful, and creative. We never had to advertise when we needed to expand the crew for a particular project/phase. We just told the foreman how many bodies we needed, and he had them there on Monday - with all paperwork in order. It helped, also, that the other PM & I each had a bit of Spanish... but it was by no means necessary.

If we had been 'required' to hire only English speakers... our most excellent crew would have been out of bounds, to our and their detriment.

Should all dingleberries be required to sing in the baroque choir... as sopranos?

slug
10-05-2015, 08:35 AM
Anyone who claims that immigrants cannot assimilate and merge into our already-diverse culture as the need arises, must be ignorant of history.


Un Assimilated immigrants live in places called Ghettos.

dont go There...dont subject your children to this.

If you would like I can walk you into town to the muslim ghetto and you can see with your own eyes.

David G
10-05-2015, 08:38 AM
Un Assimilated immigrants live in places called Ghettos.

dont go There...dont subject your children to this.

If you would like I can walk you into town to the muslim ghetto and you can see with your own eyes.

Ahistorically clueless.

WszystekPoTrochu
10-05-2015, 08:39 AM
People learn, if not so much the immigrants themselves, certainly their children. Even in ethnic ghettos. Anyone who has done utility collection work, for example, is well used to a child's voice on the phone handling translations services for their parents.


Wrong.




They were born in the UK, but many second and third generation immigrants speak or understand hardly any English, it was revealed today. Their poor understanding of the language means they are unable to take notes or understand basic instructions on training courses (...) Families deliberately discouraged children from learning English to protect their culture and ensure they could talk to their grandparents.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150667/Second-generation-migrants-struggle-understand-basic-instructions-English.html
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150667/Second-generation-migrants-struggle-understand-basic-instructions-English.html)

"The first generation of guest workers, like my parents who came here in the 1970s from Turkey, were much better integrated," she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/15/mesut-ozil-turkish-german-football
(http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/15/mesut-ozil-turkish-german-football)

But immigrants from Turkey, the second biggest immigrant group in Germany making up almost 3 million people, are very poorly integrated. They come last in the Berlin Institute's integration ranking and the difference between them and the Germans is greatest (...). And it doesn't make much difference how long they've been living in Germany.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/immigration-survey-shows-alarming-lack-of-integration-in-germany-a-603588.html

slug
10-05-2015, 08:39 AM
You must climb out of your basement and into the bright lights of the real world

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 08:40 AM
Un Assimilated immigrants live in places called Ghettos.

dont go There...dont subject your children to this.

If you would like I can walk you into town to the muslim ghetto and you can see with your own eyes.

I imagine that sometime, around 1910 or so, some xenophobe living on the 'right' side of the tracks, probably said very much the same thing about the 'Jewish ghetto' in New Jersey where my grandparents lived.... you know, "Don't go there, those people don't speak English... they may be dangerous!"

CWSmith
10-05-2015, 08:44 AM
Anyone who claims that immigrants cannot assimilate and merge into our already-diverse culture as the need arises, must be ignorant of history.

Who is saying that? Are you changing the subject? I thought it was about learning the "native" language.

slug
10-05-2015, 08:47 AM
Wrong.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150667/Second-generation-migrants-struggle-understand-basic-instructions-English.html
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150667/Second-generation-migrants-struggle-understand-basic-instructions-English.html)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/15/mesut-ozil-turkish-german-football
(http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/15/mesut-ozil-turkish-german-football)

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/immigration-survey-shows-alarming-lack-of-integration-in-germany-a-603588.html


very complex situation in Europe.

Europe, because of deep lingustic and cultural roots does not intergrate imigrants well.

adding millions of poor illiterate immigrants to Europe will create huge problems.

Dan McCosh
10-05-2015, 08:52 AM
Virtually all immigrants learn the local language, at least enough to get by. That often means understanding, rather than speaking it. It's worth noting that three years of English is mandatory in all Mexican schools, with some making it a seven-year requirement. Some do remain insular, like my grandmother, who spoke only Polish. Or myself, speaking only English.

WszystekPoTrochu
10-05-2015, 08:53 AM
If one wants multicultural society (with all its perks, gains but also unavoidable clashes) having a common language is an absolute must. Without it, all we'll get is a bunch of leery tribes that happen to live near each other, but have as few in common as possible.

There is no hope for assimilation and integratrion, if there is no way to reach newcomers on a regular basis.

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 08:54 AM
very complex situation in Europe.

Europe, because of deep lingustic and cultural roots does not intergrate imigrants well.

adding millions of poor illiterate immigrants to Europe will create huge problems.

Actually, Germany WANTS these immigrants... because it's facing a severe demographic challenge: the birth rate in the German population, as a whole, is declining, to the point where Germany may have a labor shortage in a short time.

How well Germany manages to integrate these immigrants into their society, depends on just how much support they provide to the immigrants.... it may indeed be true that some immigrants, from some disparate cultures, have a difficult time integrating into German society, but it's really up to the government to handle immigration properly.

Keith Wilson
10-05-2015, 08:57 AM
Most people find it quite difficult to learn a new language as adults; that's just how our brains are wired. On average, most of the first generation of immigrants speaks the new language badly, some hardly at all. The second generation speaks the local language fluently, sometimes with a slight accent, and their parents' language not so well. The third generation speaks the local langauge like a native (which they are) , and studies their grandparents' native language in school if they're interested in it. This is how it's worked for 300 years, whether the immigrants were from Germany, Sweden, Russia, Italy, China, Mexico, India, or Vietnam. (FWIW, the reason that there were so many Irish policemen in east coast cities is that they already came speaking English.) In fact, with better communication today, immigrants are learning faster than they used to. It helps that so many of them speak Spanish, which is not all that far from English in structure and vocabulary.

The idea that we need to push immigrants harder to lean English is absurd. There are ENORMOUS advantages already to being able to communicate in the local language, both social and economic. Anything we could do would only provide a very marginally greater incentive. Helping people learn by putting more resources into ESL classes might be a good idea. The fact that those who bring this up almost always suggest punitive measures rather than help ('required to . . . ') indicates to me that the motivation is at least partly anti-immigrant sentiment rather than a sincere desire that people learn English.

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 08:59 AM
Most people find it quite difficult to learn a new language as adults; that's just how our brains are wired. On average, most of the first generation of immigrants speaks the new language badly, some hardly at all. The second generation speaks the local language fluently, sometimes with a slight accent, and their parents' language not so well. The third generation speaks the local langauge like a native (which they are) , and studies their grandparents' native language in school if they're interested in it. This is how it's worked for 300 years, whether the immigrants were from Germany, Sweden, Russia, Italy, China, Mexico, India, or Vietnam. (FWIW, the reason that there were so many Irish policemen in east coast cities is that they already came speaking English.) In fact, with better communication today, immigrants are learning faster than they used to. It helps that so many of them speak Spanish, which is not all that far from English in structure and vocabulary.

The idea that we need to push immigrants harder to lean English is absurd. There are ENORMOUS advantages already to being able to communicate in the local language, both social and economic. Anything we could do would only provide a very marginally greater incentive. Helping people learn by putting more resources into ESL classes might be a good idea. The fact that those who bring this up almost always suggest punitive measures rather than help ('required to . . . ') indicates to me that the motivation is at least partly anti-immigrant sentiment rather than a sincere desire that people learn English.

*shrugs* It's just more of the same, Keith: nativism and xenophobia. It seems to have come back in fashion.

slug
10-05-2015, 09:00 AM
[QUOTE=Norman Bernstein;4672579]Actually, Germany WANTS these immigrants... because it's facing a severe demographic challenge: the birth rate in the German population, as a whole, is declining, to the point where Germany may have a labor shortage in a short time.

How well Germany manages to integrate these immigrants into their society, depends on just how much support they provide to the immigrants.... it may indeed be true that some immigrants, from some disparate cultures, have a difficult time integrating into German society, but it's really up to the government to handle immigration properly.[/.


There is an endless supply of labour from eastern europe. In Spain , Portugal, Ireland, Italy youth unemployment is massive .

need workers ?

those eastern european kids from Romania come pre educated, culturally similar and ready to work.


Why are you stunting thier chances of obtaining a European quality of life ?

TomF
10-05-2015, 09:29 AM
Thankfully, my kids don't show the linguistic difficulties bequeathed to them by my Scottish and Irish ancestors. My German grandfather's influence on my kids' speech is almost un-noticeable, but then he died when I was 2.

OTOH, our kids' speech is littered with words and idioms reflecting Herself's heritage. Of course, she's the 1st generation in her family born in Canada, and kept very strong ties with the Old Country - literature/music, cultural practices, visits with relatives, etc. Even lived there with her paternal Grandparents for 4 years as a child, returning for another year as a young adult. Although my FIL has lived in Canada for over 50 years his speech is still shockingly hobbled by his heritage. God only knows how he made his way professionally.

Strangely, our kids aren't nearly as marked by Herself's maternal heritage (they were Russian, never learned English ... and somehow made do in Toronto with 6 other languages), but the Australian influence has been simply hell to root out.

peb
10-05-2015, 09:37 AM
A common language is important, but it tends to take care of itself over time. Sometimes quickly, sometimes a little more slowly.

All indications are that in the US today, immigrants are learning English faster than ever before.

We just don't have the ethnically centric communities ( be it rural towns or urban areas) where people of a group live practically homogeneously for multiple generations. We used to, but no more.



I think I have told this anecdote before, but its worth repeating. On my father's side, my great-grew grandfather immigrated to Iowa in 1845. My parents have my grandfather's baptismal and first communion certificates framed and hanging on their kitchen wall, dated 1900 and 1908 respectively. They are both written in German. 60 years and the primary language was still German.

Reynard38
10-05-2015, 09:39 AM
Are you suggesting that there are no jobs, for which, the ability to speak English is NOT a requirement?

No, but if I was an employer I wouldn't hire someone that could not communicate with his/her coworkers. Also I would not want the goverment mandating that I had to.

slug
10-05-2015, 09:43 AM
If a worker cant read or communicate how will they safely use equipment or operate as a team .

peb
10-05-2015, 09:45 AM
No, but if I was an employer I wouldn't hire someone that could not communicate with his/her coworkers. Also I would not want the goverment mandating that I had to.



A very good point. Another example of where, when it comes to the issue of immigration, "conservatives" abandon their principles and loose trust in the marketplace and assume more regulation and government intervention is a good thing.

WszystekPoTrochu
10-05-2015, 09:45 AM
The idea that we need to push immigrants harder to lean English is absurd. There are ENORMOUS advantages already to being able to communicate in the local language, both social and economic. Anything we could do would only provide a very marginally greater incentive. Helping people learn by putting more resources into ESL classes might be a good idea. The fact that those who bring this up almost always suggest punitive measures rather than help ('required to . . . ') indicates to me that the motivation is at least partly anti-immigrant sentiment rather than a sincere desire that people learn English.

I think You're commiting a fallacy here, projecting own POV on people significantly differing in views, perspectives, cultural background and possibly even life goals. Young second-third generation migrants will often have contact only with the, uh, least appealing members of native society - if at all. Combine hopelessness of unemployment, bad neighbourhood, low quality schooling - what advantages of learning local language do they see?

The state of Germany funds language courses. Why then so many immigrants choose not to gain that enormous advantage?

Joe (SoCal)
10-05-2015, 09:50 AM
Because of my waitering and bartending skills I speak "Waiter" a dialect that incorporates English, French, Spanish, German, Greek, Russian, Polish, Yiddish, Hebrew, Albanian, Italian, West African, Moroccan and a bunch of others.

I currently live and work in a multicultural, multilinguistic area. I LOVE exploring the "Ghettos" I love the experience of experiencing authentic culture from all around the world just miles from where I live. On Sunday mornings I can grab a Cafe con Leche, from Noches de Colombia (https://www.nochesdecolombia.com/) the Colombian place on the corner. I'm always greeted by name and a Buenos días and if gives me a little opportunity to practice my spanish, you try that kind of service at Starbucks ( Oh and I don't have to rip little packets of sugar and spill 1/2 & 1/2 on the guy elbowing me on the little table). I cross the street and get my beloved NY Times from the Greek, I walk in and love seeing all the old Greek Guys talking in their native language. I walk in and attempt my best Waiter Greek, with a hearty Ella Tikanis Kala grab my paper and maybe a flakey pastry and the old man at the counter always says kalimera to which I always respond Efharistó. which Then I walk two blocks to DiPalmas and pick up my seeded Italian bread, fresh mozzarella, basil, tomatoes etc. Mimo's always knows me and Renee by name and packs everything up and always throws a little something extra in for me. I always give him a cheery Ciao Mimo's . All these shop owners, and restaurant workers I've talked to at length and heard the same story no matter what: They came here with almost nothing and couldn't speak a word of english they still speak limited english but they came here to give a better life for their children who all speak perfect english and who they are so very proud of.

These Ghettos are what makes this country great. Not to mention OMG the FOOD :D

Ian McColgin
10-05-2015, 09:52 AM
Immigrants and the nations to which they go are all different all over. Places that encourage, socially or governmentally, long term ghettoization will be places where the immigrants have a harder time. There's a natural resistance to mating outside one's community but in nations with a strong ethnic identity that resistance on both the immigrant side and the host side is stronger than in most of the US. Given ethnic identity, I'm constantly impressed at how well some European nations are handling Middle Eastern immigrants.

peb
10-05-2015, 09:54 AM
I think You're commiting a fallacy here, projecting own POV on people significantly differing in views, perspectives, cultural background and possibly even life goals. Young second-third generation migrants will often have contact only with the, uh, least appealing members of native society - if at all. Combine hopelessness of unemployment, bad neighbourhood, low quality schooling - what advantages of learning local language do they see?

The state of Germany funds language courses. Why then so many immigrants choose not to gain that enormous advantage?



I suppose the problem must be different in Europe, than here in the US.

I have direct experience with many Mexican immigrants through my local parish. The outcomes, with respect to language, is almost always the same. Depending on the parent's jobs and background, they struggle to learn English, but always are making the effort. Their kids speak very good English at a young age and their Spanish skills deteriorate at an alarming rate, hence the term spanglish.



We also have a Vietnamese catholic parish in our neighborhood. the old folks have trouble with English, no one under 60 seems to. my kids Vietnamese friends have unfortunately lost that language (2generations), can understand some of what their grandparents say, but not much. 2 generations and they have "proudly" become American monolinguits.

LeeG
10-05-2015, 09:56 AM
Migrants should learn native dances and cuisine

peb
10-05-2015, 10:00 AM
Migrants should learn native dances and cuisine



And that's another area where assimilation has ruined things. Despite a very large Vietnamese local community, the Vietnamese restaurants just don't compare to 20 years ago.

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 10:15 AM
I suppose the problem must be different in Europe, than here in the US.

I have direct experience with many Mexican immigrants through my local parish. The outcomes, with respect to language, is almost always the same. Depending on the parent's jobs and background, they struggle to learn English, but always are making the effort. Their kids speak very good English at a young age and their Spanish skills deteriorate at an alarming rate, hence the term spanglish.

We also have a Vietnamese catholic parish in our neighborhood. the old folks have trouble with English, no one under 60 seems to. my kids Vietnamese friends have unfortunately lost that language (2generations), can understand some of what their grandparents say, but not much. 2 generations and they have "proudly" become American monolinguits.

I think we're very much in agreement, peb, on this issue. Culture is what people create for themselves.... it's not a 'specification' with an ideal set of parameters and characteristics. The same is true of language.... people find ways to communicate, and find ways to succeed, and if learning English matters, they learn English.... but these immigrants who DON'T initially speak the language can be citizens every bit as worthy as anyone else.

Keith Wilson
10-05-2015, 10:18 AM
I think You're committing a fallacy here, projecting own POV on people significantly differing in views, perspectives, cultural background and possibly even life goals. Young second-third generation migrants will often have contact only with the, uh, least appealing members of native society - if at all. Combine hopelessness of unemployment, bad neighbourhood, low quality schooling - what advantages of learning local language do they see?No, I'm basing it on what I've seen myself, as well as what I know about previous generations of immigrants. The population of Minneapolis -St Paul is about 12% foreign-born. Country of origin is (in descending order) Mexico, India, Laos, Somalia, Vietnam, Thailand, China, Korea, Ethiopia, and Canada. (Most of those from Laos and Thailand are actually Hmong). Perhaps things go differently in Europe.

The thing is, the US has always had a fairly high level of immigration, except for the period from 1924 to about 1975 when there were very restrictive laws in place - and even then, there were still lots of refugees from Europe during and after the war. Europe is different, with states mostly (not entirely) divided along ethnic lines. The Poles are mostly Polish and speak Polish, the French are French and speak French. Americans mostly speak English, but our ancestors come from the entire planet. I think this is one of our greatest advantages, myself, but others disagree.

ahp
10-05-2015, 10:26 AM
I should be a legal requirement for citizenship. I have said this before but I will say it again. In the 19th century some German groups in the unincorporated territories were not only proud of not knowing English but also wanted four contiguous territories admitted to the Union as official German language states. Think about how that would work out in 1914. Language is culture.

Will these immigrants be Americans from (?), or would they be be proud (?) with an american mailing address?

Shang
10-05-2015, 10:40 AM
While I was in graduate school at Syracuse the college had an arrangement to train students from Iran. Part of the arrangement was that the students could bring their wives along to Syracuse. The Iranian students and their wives moved into the Married Student housing, next to where my wife and I were living.

The first program was to teach the Iranians to speak English, which was to be the language of instruction for the other programs. After a few weeks it became obvious that the Iranian wives were learning English more rapidly than were their husbands despite the fact that the guys were attending English language classes, while their wives were interacting with neighbors and shop keepers, and watching daytime television.

I was teaching cinematography in the second semester. I found that the Iranian guys could understand some English, but had difficulty forming questions and answers. At social gatherings after school I noticed that the wives were pretty much English-fluent.

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 10:41 AM
I can only wonder what might have happened to my yiddish-speaking grandparents, if this amount of nativism and xenophobia existed back in 1906, when they arrived from Eastern Europe.

Ian McColgin
10-05-2015, 10:47 AM
It was that ugly.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/18960415_antisemitic_political_cartoon_in_Sound_Mo ney.jpg/800px-18960415_antisemitic_political_cartoon_in_Sound_Mo ney.jpg

Keith Wilson
10-05-2015, 10:52 AM
. . . if this amount of nativism and xenophobia existed back in 1906It did. Not long afterward, the KKK was holding huge marches down Washington Avenue, and working toward passing the 1924 immigration restrictions. They disliked Jews almost as much as blacks.

peb
10-05-2015, 10:54 AM
I should be a legal requirement for citizenship. I have said this before but I will say it again. In the 19th century some German groups in the unincorporated territories were not only proud of not knowing English but also wanted four contiguous territories admitted to the Union as official German language states. Think about how that would work out in 1914. Language is culture.

Will these immigrants be Americans from (?), or would they be be proud (?) with an american mailing address?



Do you have a reference to the proposed German language states? It sounds a little off to me. I think the emergence of a unified German state in the late 19th under Prussian dominance is what drove a lot of German immigrants here. the two facts seem somewhat at odds. I have never come across this claim.

leikec
10-05-2015, 10:58 AM
I can only wonder what might have happened to my yiddish-speaking grandparents, if this amount of nativism and xenophobia existed back in 1906, when they arrived from Eastern Europe.

I don't believe things are much different, other than the fact that the Internet gives the nativist chuckleheads an easy access platform...

Jeff C

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 11:04 AM
I don't believe things are much different, other than the fact that the Internet gives the nativist chuckleheads an easy access platform...

Perhaps you're right... in which case, it only accrues to the character and determination of those immigrants to withstand the nativism and xenophobia, and to survive, thrive, and flourish here in the United States. I'm proud of being a descendant of those immigrants... and am offended by the suggestion that, according to some people's standards, they shouldn't have been allowed to find work simply because they didn't speak English.

slug
10-05-2015, 11:18 AM
While I was in graduate school at Syracuse the college had an arrangement to train students from Iran. Part of the arrangement was that the students could bring their wives along to Syracuse. The Iranian students and their wives moved into the Married Student housing, next to where my wife and I were living.

The first program was to teach the Iranians to speak English, which was to be the language of instruction for the other programs. After a few weeks it became obvious that the Iranian wives were learning English more rapidly than were their husbands despite the fact that the guys were attending English language classes, while their wives were interacting with neighbors and shop keepers, and watching daytime television.

I was teaching cinematography in the second semester. I found that the Iranian guys could understand some English, but had difficulty forming questions and answers. At social gatherings after school I noticed that the wives were pretty much English-fluent.


Iran is a different civilization. Very high literacy rate. If an Iranian asks to immigrate to your country , I suggest that you have a talk and make them welcome .

iran is not producing a massive refugee exodus, Iran hosts refugees.

Morrocco , egypt, Afghnastan...are the source of migrants.


http://s11.postimg.org/u332hj3qr/image.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/fjvxg4alr/full/)
post images (http://postimage.org/)

CWSmith
10-05-2015, 11:20 AM
It did. Not long afterward, the KKK was holding huge marches down Washington Avenue, and working toward passing the 1924 immigration restrictions. They disliked Jews almost as much as blacks.

And yet, the immigrant Jews learned English and became a very important part of American society. There was prejudice, probably still is, but as far as assimilation is concerned they did an excellent job! If they retained Yiddish, all the better. If they opened a few good delis, then I thank them for it from the bottom of my stomach.

Added in edit: To be honest, I think that food is where the barriers are first crossed. It's hard to eat someone else's cooking and remain too prejudice. They did it in the old south, but how I do not know.

Added in edit: Dang it! I thought the title read "immigrants".

Keith Wilson
10-05-2015, 11:21 AM
I don't believe things are much different, other than the fact that the Internet gives the nativist chuckleheads an easy access platform...I believe that things are actually better now. The internet gives everybody a platform, and before that they had newsletters and magazines. Nativist sentiment has been common for most of our history, alongside immigration, and today's variety is fairly mild compared to the KKK.

1923:

http://www.authentichistory.com/1921-1929/4-resistance/2-KKK/19250809_Klan_March_on_Washington_version1.jpg

TomF
10-05-2015, 11:22 AM
This is a reason to refuse them, Slug? 100% of infants not only are illiterate, but they can't even speak one language. ;)

It might be that by welcoming female immigrants from such places, you'd be creaming-off the most motivated, most likely to take advantage of opportunity folks out there. Press a spring down really hard, and it wants to spring back.

Joe (SoCal)
10-05-2015, 11:23 AM
^^^^ Wow thats a whole lot of DUNCE hats on parade.

slug
10-05-2015, 11:24 AM
While I was in graduate school at Syracuse the college had an arrangement to train students from Iran. Part of the arrangement was that the students could bring their wives along to Syracuse. The Iranian students and their wives moved into the Married Student housing, next to where my wife and I were living.

The first program was to teach the Iranians to speak English, which was to be the language of instruction for the other programs. After a few weeks it became obvious that the Iranian wives were learning English more rapidly than were their husbands despite the fact that the guys were attending English language classes, while their wives were interacting with neighbors and shop keepers, and watching daytime television.

I was teaching cinematography in the second semester. I found that the Iranian guys could understand some English, but had difficulty forming questions and answers. At social gatherings after school I noticed that the wives were pretty much English-fluent.


Iran is a different civilization. Very high literacy rate. If an Iranian asks to immigrate to your country , I suggest that you have a talk and make them welcome .

iran is not producing a massive refugee exodus, Iran hosts refugees.

Morrocco , egypt, Afghnastan...are the source of migrants.


http://s11.postimg.org/u332hj3qr/image.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/fjvxg4alr/full/)
post images (http://postimage.org/)

slug
10-05-2015, 11:30 AM
This is a reason to refuse them, Slug? 100% of infants not only are illiterate, but they can't even speak one language. ;)

It might be that by welcoming female immigrants from such places, you'd be creaming-off the most motivated, most likely to take advantage of opportunity folks out there. Press a spring down really hard, and it wants to spring back.


They are illiterate because of culture and religion . Women in these cultures are baby factories who dont leave the house.

the local north african muslim ghetto is a ghetto because of this. In this region wages are low, cost of living high. For an indigenous family to succed two wage earners and a small family are needed. One wage earner and a large family condemns the family to permanent poverty.

generation after generation.

This situation is socialy damaging .

will you change thier culture, thier religion ....to fit into your society ? Or is it better to simply reject them as Immigrants and choose only those who will rapidly succeed.

Joe (SoCal)
10-05-2015, 11:32 AM
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12118608_966903060069415_3144626378527532450_n.jpg ?oh=fdcbc856b6efd684afe225a09adccc9d&oe=568ECFBE

CWSmith
10-05-2015, 11:37 AM
^ Joe, I think there is a bigger question to ask. Most of the Latinos coming here are coming from nearby. We have had a major role in undermining what limited democratic government they have had, although democracy is on the rise if you measure it in decades. We need to clean up that mess that we made. That alone will go a long way toward reducing immigration and building better societies on our borders.

Keith Wilson
10-05-2015, 12:10 PM
We have had a major role in undermining what limited democratic government they have had, although democracy is on the rise if you measure it in decades. We need to clean up that mess that we made.The is a standard mistake of folks in the US, both left and right, thinking the US has more influence than it does. With a few exceptions (the creation of Panama, the DR, the occupation of Nicaragua) it gives the US altogether too much credit and blame, and ignores what the folks in those counties do and want. There have indeed been messes in Latin America; most of them were made by Latin Americans, although the US sometimes helped.

Joe (SoCal)
10-05-2015, 12:13 PM
Thanks Keith sometimes I just don't have the energy ;)

genglandoh
10-05-2015, 01:23 PM
It is interesting how Amsterdam is handling the problem.
They are forcing business to learn the foreign language of their employees.


2 October 2015 - Amsterdam brothel owners must speak sex workers' language
The authorities in Amsterdam were right to refuse a brothel owner permission to operate because he could not speak Hungarian or Bulgarian, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34423322

Joe (SoCal)
10-05-2015, 01:26 PM
Amsterdam/Population
779,808 (2011)
New York City/Population
8.406 million (2013) ................yup interesting

Osborne Russell
10-05-2015, 01:34 PM
I think migrants should be required to learn the native Language, but should they learn to ask fake questions on their own?

genglandoh
10-05-2015, 01:41 PM
Amsterdam/Population
779,808 (2011)
New York City/Population
8.406 million (2013) ................yup interesting



Thank you for the information but what does it have to do with the topic of the thread?

Joe (SoCal)
10-05-2015, 01:50 PM
Thank you for the information but what does it have to do with the topic of the thread?

About as much as yours :D

Flying Orca
10-05-2015, 02:02 PM
It is interesting how Amsterdam is handling the problem.
They are forcing business to learn the foreign language of their employees.

2 October 2015 - Amsterdam brothel owners must speak sex workers' language
The authorities in Amsterdam were right to refuse a brothel owner permission to operate because he could not speak Hungarian or Bulgarian, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) said.

I don't have a problem with that. Running a brothel has, at the very least, great potential for exploitation; requiring the operator of such a business to be able to talk with the workers (who may very well have been brought there against their will) is, I think, entirely reasonable.

TomF
10-05-2015, 02:07 PM
They are illiterate because of culture and religion . ....

will you change thier culture, thier religion ....to fit into your society ? Or is it better to simply reject them as Immigrants and choose only those who will rapidly succeed.How many generations will that culture remain immovable, 100% intact, once they move here? I worked with the Japanese Canadian community in Vancouver for a year back in the 90s, (bizarre that they hired me, eh? Look at my avatar :D); a key concern of theirs was that the 3rd generation kids were "losing their culture." Many of the Issei (1st generation) were unilingual Japanese; many of the Nisei (2nd generation) were bilingual, but the Sensei (3rd generation) were far from it. One Nisei parent went so far as to talk about a trip to Tokyo with her teenaged daughter, and said "It was like a silent movie. She looked Japanese, but that's it!" Pretty harsh - the daughter was actually very knowledgeable about (and proud of) her heritage, but sure felt like she was a fish-out-of-water when she encountered the huge network of Japanese customs about respect and courtesy. It wasn't because her parents or grandparents wanted her to lose those qualities - they were kinda horrified. She just grew up in Vancouver, not Nagasaki.

You trying to tell me that the Japanese culture exerts less power than the Moroccan? That even at the extremist end of each, the culture that 70 years ago produced kamikaze pilots is softer/weaker than the one producing suicide bombers today? Tell it to someone whose father fought for America in the Pacific in WW2.

People who take the initiative to immigrate are exactly the kind of people who have the drive, the initiative, and the work ethic to make positive change in their new homes. It's happened with every wave of immigration in the past 150 years, in every New World country that's received them.

Today's immigrant communities will follow the same pattern -

genglandoh
10-05-2015, 02:07 PM
I don't have a problem with that. Running a brothel has, at the very least, great potential for exploitation; requiring the operator of such a business to be able to talk with the workers (who may very well have been brought there against their will) is, I think, entirely reasonable.

So if you speak the language it is OK to force people into working in a brothel?

TomF
10-05-2015, 02:09 PM
So if you speak the language it is OK to force people into working in a brothel?Every bit as OK as forcing someone whose language you don't speak. You agree?

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 02:10 PM
So if you speak the language it is OK to force people into working in a brothel?

Who said anything about 'forcing' people to work in a brothel?

Keith Wilson
10-05-2015, 02:23 PM
will you change their culture, their religion ....to fit into your society ? No. They will. Or their children certainly will.

Norman Bernstein
10-05-2015, 02:32 PM
No. They will. Or their children certainly will.


....and, as a result, OUR 'culture' will be changed... and most often, for the better.

Reynard38
10-05-2015, 02:38 PM
Iran is a different civilization. Very high literacy rate. If an Iranian asks to immigrate to your country , I suggest that you have a talk and make them welcome .

iran is not producing a massive refugee exodus, Iran hosts refugees.

Morrocco , egypt, Afghnastan...are the source of migrants.




http://s11.postimg.org/u332hj3qr/image.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/fjvxg4alr/full/)
post images (http://postimage.org/)

Ok already. I'll host 3 or 4 of those young ladies from the Philippines. I'll even by a Philippine phrase book. Wanna make them feel welcome!

genglandoh
10-05-2015, 02:45 PM
Who said anything about 'forcing' people to work in a brothel?

Flying Orca seems to think that some brothel workers are being forced against their will.
And somehow having the brothel owner learning a foreign language will solve this problem.


I don't have a problem with that. Running a brothel has, at the very least, great potential for exploitation; requiring the operator of such a business to be able to talk with the workers (who may very well have been brought there against their will) is, I think, entirely reasonable.

TomF
10-05-2015, 03:00 PM
Flying Orca seems to think that some brothel workers are being forced against their will.
And somehow having the brothel owner learning a foreign language will solve this problem.No, Flying Orca observed that the provisions of The Netherlands' law (which you'd originally brought into the thread via a C&P link) were intended to do something you somehow didn't grasp.

In Amsterdam, prostitution is legal. You or I might not like that, but it's their country.

Within that context, what's NOT legal is forcing someone to be a prostitute. It seems that the owners at the "retail" end of the business are under an obligation to make sure their employees really want to be there - and this law means that those owners can't employ someone they can't talk with enough to verify that they're in the trade voluntarily.

That is, it's about trying to give a wee bit more protection to the sex-workers themselves, and put another barrier up to attempt to reduce people-trafficking.

You OK with that?

Flying Orca
10-05-2015, 03:02 PM
So if you speak the language it is OK to force people into working in a brothel?

I don't think I said that. If you think I said that, you have difficulties with reading comprehension... but I suspect you're just trolling, because that's what you do.

Flying Orca
10-05-2015, 03:11 PM
Flying Orca seems to think that some brothel workers are being forced against their will.

He certainly does. Funnily enough, authorities on the subject seem to think so, too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking_in_Europe). (PRO-TIP: This, in case you've never encountered one before, is what an "evidence-based opinion" looks like.)


And somehow having the brothel owner learning a foreign language will solve this problem.

Ah, now you're putting words in my mouth. All I said was that I thought it was reasonable to require the brothel owner to be able to communicate with the employees in their own language (with the aim of reducing illegal exploitation).

CWSmith
10-05-2015, 03:44 PM
The is a standard mistake of folks in the US, both left and right, thinking the US has more influence than it does. With a few exceptions (the creation of Panama, the DR, the occupation of Nicaragua) it gives the US altogether too much credit and blame, and ignores what the folks in those counties do and want. There have indeed been messes in Latin America; most of them were made by Latin Americans, although the US sometimes helped.

One word: Dole (and I don't mean the senator).

Here is a second word: cocaine.

First we had puppet governments in place and then we fund criminal enterprises to the point that no government can rule.

purri
10-05-2015, 04:55 PM
Thankfully, my kids don't show the linguistic difficulties bequeathed to them by my Scottish and Irish ancestors. My German grandfather's influence on my kids' speech is almost un-noticeable, but then he died when I was 2.

OTOH, our kids' speech is littered with words and idioms reflecting Herself's heritage. Of course, she's the 1st generation in her family born in Canada, and kept very strong ties with the Old Country - literature/music, cultural practices, visits with relatives, etc. Even lived there with her paternal Grandparents for 4 years as a child, returning for another year as a young adult. Although my FIL has lived in Canada for over 50 years his speech is still shockingly hobbled by his heritage. God only knows how he made his way professionally.

Strangely, our kids aren't nearly as marked by Herself's maternal heritage (they were Russian, never learned English ... and somehow made do in Toronto with 6 other languages), but the Australian influence has been simply hell to root out.

Chuckling on the last sentence.

genglandoh
10-05-2015, 07:00 PM
He certainly does. Funnily enough, authorities on the subject seem to think so, too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking_in_Europe). (PRO-TIP: This, in case you've never encountered one before, is what an "evidence-based opinion" looks like.)



Ah, now you're putting words in my mouth. All I said was that I thought it was reasonable to require the brothel owner to be able to communicate with the employees in their own language (with the aim of reducing illegal exploitation).

Don't you think it would be better to have the employee learn the native language so they can tell the police (or anyone ) that they are being exploited?

Flying Orca
10-05-2015, 07:42 PM
Don't you think it would be better to have the employee learn the native language so they can tell the police (or anyone ) that they are being exploited?

I think that is also a good idea. I am also enough of a realist to know that at least some of the "employees" we're talking about are not given the opportunity to do so.

I don't understand why so many RWWs seem to think it's crucial that all immigrants learn the local language. I can't tell you how many grannies I encountered, growing up in a multicultural city, who couldn't speak much English. Their children generally spoke excellent if accented English (in the suburb in which I lived for quite some time, odds on they were academics, and failing that, professionals), and their grandchildren - my peers - just sounded like average Canadian kids.

My ancestors brought their language here, and their traditions, and I try to do my part to keep them alive. I'm not much good with the language, and none of the national sports appeal to me, but I play traditional music, and I sometimes wear traditional dress, and I drink traditional beverages, and I frequent the local cultural club - in fact, I've been asked to sit on the board. I don't see anything wrong with people from other cultures doing the same.

Breakaway
10-05-2015, 07:56 PM
Living in New York and traveling to South Florida for work for many years, my Spanish is passable. But I am beginning to have a devil of a time understanding English-speaking people under 20 years of age.:d

Kevin

genglandoh
10-05-2015, 08:08 PM
Living in New York and traveling to South Florida for work for many years, my Spanish is passable. But I am beginning to have a devil of a time understanding English-speaking people under 20 years of age.:d

Kvein

I hear dat, bro.

genglandoh
04-11-2016, 04:08 PM
Germany is looking to require refugees to learn their language.

Germany wants refugees to integrate or lose residency rights
German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere said he is planning a new law that will require refugees to learn German and integrate into society, or else lose their permanent right of residence.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-integration-idUSKCN0WU147

Peerie Maa
04-11-2016, 04:17 PM
^ not too bad an idea.

But I do wonder whether the German colonial administrators gave up German when they lived in their African colonies. I know that the Brits did not.

Hypocrisy is never far away.

Norman Bernstein
04-11-2016, 04:27 PM
Jonah Goldberg is a very conservative op-editorialist in the Boston Globe. I rarely ever agree with him, but he did write an op-ed a few weeks ago which contrasted the situation with immigrants in the US, versus immigrants in many European countries, including places like Scandinavia and Germany. He points out that the overwhelming difference is that, in the US, immigrants tend to become culturally acclimatized, and assimilated into American society... whereas, in places in Europe, immigrants tend to become isolated in their own neighborhoods and don't integrate into the societies they emigrated to. Goldberg argues that this is the reason that there tend to be more migrants in Europe who might be susceptible to things like extremism.

That being said, I think it is also true that this really doesn't occur, in the US, in less than a generation. My own grandmother, who came to the US in 1908, could only barely speak English, yet she operated a small store in a section of our home town which was largely populated by Jewish immigrants. Her sons, on the other hand, went to public school, and became fully assimilated... they started a business and became successful. No one can say that her inability to read or write English was a detriment to her citizenship (She COULD write her name... strictly to be able to sign her checks).

People learn languages when it becomes necessary to learn the language... but it is NOT a requirement or qualification for citizenship, by any means. Their children will learn English, for sure, by attending public schools.

Trying to do this by legislative fiat is a sure formula for failure.

The trick, then, is for Americans to welcome immigrants into their communities and establish ties with them, to help them assimilate... not to 'wall them off', symbolically or literally.

Chip-skiff
04-11-2016, 04:28 PM
I studied Navajo for a few years, and picked up enough to tell a joke.

Also learned bits of Shoshoni and Arapaho.

Some of my 'Skin friends say that white people are too dumb to learn their languages.

I say, "Nope. We're too lazy."

skuthorp
04-11-2016, 04:29 PM
I have a Yorkshire born friend who has lived in Minnesota for 30 years. A few years ago I would ring his office on occasion, his staff all had a tinge of Yorkshire in their accents, his hasn't mellowed at all.

On the subject of 'native languages', maybe everyone should be taught one in the education system. And I do agree with Chip on people being too lazy to learn their own, but that's how regional and local patois develop.

Peerie Maa
04-11-2016, 04:36 PM
Jonah Goldberg is a very conservative op-editorialist in the Boston Globe. I rarely ever agree with him, but he did write an op-ed a few weeks ago which contrasted the situation with immigrants in the US, versus immigrants in many European countries, including places like Scandinavia and Germany. He points out that the overwhelming difference is that, in the US, immigrants tend to become culturally acclimatized, and assimilated into American society... whereas, in places in Europe, immigrants tend to become isolated in their own neighborhoods and don't integrate into the societies they emigrated to. Goldberg argues that this is the reason that there tend to be more migrants in Europe who might be susceptible to things like extremism.

That being said, I think it is also true that this really doesn't occur, in the US, in less than a generation. My own grandmother, who came to the US in 1908, could only barely speak English, yet she operated a small store in a section of our home town which was largely populated by Jewish immigrants. Her sons, on the other hand, went to public school, and became fully assimilated... they started a business and became successful. No one can say that her inability to read or write English was a detriment to her citizenship (She COULD write her name... strictly to be able to sign her checks).

People learn languages when it becomes necessary to learn the language... but it is NOT a requirement or qualification for citizenship, by any means. Their children will learn English, for sure, by attending public schools.

Trying to do this by legislative fiat is a sure formula for failure.

The trick, then, is for Americans to welcome immigrants into their communities and establish ties with them, to help them assimilate... not to 'wall them off', symbolically or literally.

I think that you are right. The non "native born" generation rely on their children to translate, the children become truly bilingual. I have even seen this with a Highland family moving to middle England. The daughters accent switched as she stepped through the street door.

Norman Bernstein
04-11-2016, 04:46 PM
I think that you are right. The non "native born" generation rely on their children to translate, the children become truly bilingual. I have even seen this with a Highland family moving to middle England. The daughters accent switched as she stepped through the street door.

Yes. The real issue isn't language, it's assimilation into a community... and you CANNOT do this stuff by trying to legislate it.

Peerie Maa
04-11-2016, 04:55 PM
Yes, and our history shows that waves of immigrants all settle together and form a community. In London the waves of immigrants from Europe, Huguenots etc, all settled in Soho. Now there are enclaves of immigrant communities in all towns and cities, China Towns are ubiquitous. Generally it works OK, but the government, both at local and national levels need to be proactive and responsive to the communities needs.

Ted Hoppe
04-11-2016, 05:05 PM
Yesterday my son and I were driving through my small town heading to the boat. In front of me a Chinese woman in a late model Lexus SUV with New Jersey plates was doing a three point turn on a busy street. In a hurry, this woman ended up backing into brand new parked car causing about 5k in damages caving in the wheel wheel, and crumpling the hood.

She saw that we saw her hit the parked new Mazda. She pulled over to the side of the street to let us pass. We rolled by slowly to check on her. She put down her driver side window and yelled, "No speak English." We continued on through abut a half block as we saw the driver who cause the accident leaving the scene fast without further stopping or leaving a note. We circled around and waited for her return or the owners... Neither showed up. Not speaking english here works for many things such as not being a communicating or responsible citizen for one as a starter.

Too Little Time
04-11-2016, 05:20 PM
This theoretical requirement is both silly and self-defeating.

One example - when I worked as a PM in Austin, we had a clean-up crew. All immigrants from Mexico. They were all vetted and legal, but only two of the group spoke English - and one well enough to be their 'foreman'
So the job requirement for the clean-up crew became Spanish speaking. Seems unfair for those who speak only English. Seems to be some discrimination in employment also - seeking out Mexicans.


People we hire need to speak, write, and understand English in the manner that we use it. So English is a job requirement.

seanz
04-11-2016, 05:24 PM
I think migrants should be taught the language of the country they emigrate to plus maths, science, quick overview of logic and reason, civics and history...if they need it...for free.

Peerie Maa
04-11-2016, 05:38 PM
I think migrants should be taught the language of the country they emigrate to plus maths, science, quick overview of logic and reason, civics and history...if they need it...for free.

What, and have them better educated than the natives? WTF are you on? :eek::confused:

seanz
04-11-2016, 05:43 PM
Just coffee, honest.
:)

But, you got the point.

Durnik
04-12-2016, 08:52 AM
But, you got the point.

:ycool:



I think that you are right. The non "native born" generation rely on their children to translate, the children become truly bilingual. I have even seen this with a Highland family moving to middle England. The daughters accent switched as she stepped through the street door.

Had a gf years ago - her parents spoke mostly Portuguese. She (& her brother), however, could flip back & forth fluently in either. Was rather fun to watch!

Was good friends with a fellow about the same time. His parents were the 2nd gen - & did the flip back & forth (Polish, as it happens) - he, however, was pretty much mono-lingual.

enjoy
bobby

David G
04-12-2016, 09:58 AM
Dingleberries gotta dingle.

Haters gotta hate.

Bigots gotta... ummm, hmmmm, <dig? pig? big? prig?>

bobbys
04-12-2016, 11:10 AM
I read one time the town I was born in( Garfield NJ) was at one time the most diverse town in MERICA.

So there was every sort of person about( along with tasty ethnic foods) .

At any rate Im positive on the boat on the way over everyone studied our monetary system because every immigrant knew what the dollar was and the cost of goods..

You could meet someone that could not say hello in English yet he would know the exchange rate of every currency..

bobbys
04-12-2016, 11:14 AM
Dingleberries gotta dingle.

Haters gotta hate.

Bigots gotta... ummm, hmmmm, <dig? pig? big? prig?>.

It's nice to know you are the only smarter ,Nobel , fair Superior person on the forum.

Norman Bernstein
04-12-2016, 11:15 AM
You could meet someone that could not say hello in English yet he would know the exchange rate of every currency..

That is probably just hyperbole... but it does point out that people do what they need to do. My non-English speaking grandmother somehow managed to operate a store, and she had less than an eighth grade education... probably, a LOT less.

Her CHILDREN, however, went to public school and ALSO succeeded in life.

genglandoh
04-15-2016, 04:38 PM
Here are some details about the new law

Germany unveils integration law for refugees
Asylum seekers face cuts to support if they reject mandatory measures such as classes in language and culture
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/14/germany-unveils-integration-law-for-refugees-migrants

bobbys
04-15-2016, 07:06 PM
That is probably just hyperbole... but it does point out that people do what they need to do. My non-English speaking grandmother somehow managed to operate a store, and she had less than an eighth grade education... probably, a LOT less.

Her CHILDREN, however, went to public school and ALSO succeeded in life.
.

I don't know why it's hyerbole , I worked with POLISH, Hungarian, germans, eyetalians straight off the boat and they all knew the dollar, musta been a class on the boat, that's not a bad statement, they were pretty smart,, I admired the Polish, They would all live together in a place like Paterson., save their money and own a house in 5 years..

I did find it strange some ate lard and saltines for lunch.

htom
04-15-2016, 10:02 PM
Required? No. Free (that is, taxpayer-funded) English-as-second-language classes should be available.

I think of it as one of the things immigrants do (they don't have to be very good at it!) In wanting to become a member of a society, one would want to learn that society's language.

It is not a thing most refugees do; the hope to return home, where there native language is native.

Invaders pretending to be either ... are probably already multi-lingual.

Waddie
04-15-2016, 10:31 PM
I learned German on my grandfather's farm. He only spoke enough English to get along. Grade school education, but one of the smartest men I ever knew. He could fix anything mechanical. His grandson went to college and has a couple of postgrad degrees. Don't tell me America isn't upwardly mobile.

regards,
Waddie