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drcoastline
08-28-2015, 01:35 PM
Has anyone attempted to put red lead into Dolphinite? I recently purchased 1lb. of red Lead with the thoughts of adding some to primer/paint for faying surfaces and screw holes. I am also thinking of adding some to Dolfinite to add a little extra "protection" for lack of a better term. Any thoughts on how much to add? Is this a good idea? All comments, recommendations, etc are welcome.

Thank you in advance for your comments.

J.Madison
08-28-2015, 02:07 PM
Lead is poison to us, but not really to rot spores. I would add some copper napthenate or some other poison and compensate for the liquid with some clay powder to the right consistency.

Jay Greer
08-28-2015, 02:36 PM
Red lead in powder form can be added to Dolfinite as you mention. The trick is to not add so much powder that you cause the mixture to become friable and break down. Working the mixture using a putty knife on a pallet or wrapping paper covered table is what we often did in the paint shop at the company I worked for. We also made up our own red lead paint using boiled linseed oil and drying oil which was mixed with the red lead powder in order to form a smooth mixture. In addition, we added turpentine the bring it to brushing consistency.

Do wear gloves and a mask when you work with it. Most of us know it is poison but few of us realize that the effects can show up many years after exposure to red lead powder in the form of many strange afflictions such as dental, kidney and liver problems as well as mental disfunction. So take care when using red lead!
Jay

drcoastline
08-28-2015, 05:20 PM
Thank you for the input guys.

J.Madison, I have never heard of using Copper Napthinate. I was under the impression Red Lead always been the best product to kill spores but was to toxic to humans that is why it has been discontinued? I recently visited the IYRS in Newport, RI where they are restoring Coronet. They were painting all the faying surfaces with Kirby's red lead. Certainly with the time, effort and money being spent to restore this yacht if there were a better product they would be using it. With the very brief research I did it seems Copper Napthinate is a liquid? I am not sure this will mix with the Dolfinite, But, if the product is better and safer the liquid could be painted on the surfaces and using a syringe squirted into screw holes.

Can you please provide more information or if anyone else has any experience please chime in.

Jay Greer, how much red lead would I put into the Dolfinite? I also am aware of the dangers and will be wearing gloves and a respirator when handling the red lead. I was thinking of mixing the red lead into thinned down Rustoleum or the like. Any thoughts?

Jay Greer
08-28-2015, 06:21 PM
How much you put in is a matter of conjecture. Start mixing and it will tell you how much it wants. It is an aquired sense that is guided by instinct. Quite frankly I have never mixed it with Rustoleum so, in truth, you are pioneering new territory. I really prefer plain red lead mixed as it always has been.
Jay

J.Madison
08-28-2015, 06:26 PM
I believe they are using red lead because it is traditional and a good sealer paint. The copper (or a zinc version) is liquid. I believe its water based so it wont bond molecularly with the oil based putty, but the solids will keep it in suspension if you mix it in to the goop.

I don't think the health risk of the lead for some future person who doesn't know its in there is worth it, especially when it doesn't do what you want.

Cogeniac
08-28-2015, 08:01 PM
The guys at Rutherford's Boat Shop (Jeff Rutherford is one of the lead guys on the Coronet Project) used this combination on parts of MAKOTO's hull work. IIRC, they bedded the various timbers with Dolfinite mixed with a small amount of red lead paint, and used that to join the red-leaded faying surfaces of the timbers.

S

Bob Cleek
08-29-2015, 01:31 PM
The myth lives on... There is no magic to red lead oxide, or to white lead oxide paste, for that matter, yet, perhaps because of the internet, the greatest misinformation generator yet devised in the history of mankind, people have the impression that lead has fungicidal properties. You can do your own research at a deeper level, but the truth is simple. Before other solids were widely available to make paint (e.g. zinc oxide,) lead oxide was a very good option for making paint: linseed oil, red lead oxide, a bit of Japan drier and you have red lead paint. The red lead was cheaper than the white, so that color, ranging from orange through red to brown, was what was used (short of "whitewash") as the least expensive paint. It was common on barns, boxcars, and the parts of boats that didn't show. Well thinned, it was used as a primer and with some "whiting" (chalk) added to make a paste, it was used as bedding compound as well. It was pretty much an all-purpose thing, from soup to nuts. White lead paint was the same, but being more expensive, was reserved for finish coats and pigments were added to it to yield the entire rainbow of colors. Lead-based paint doesn't prevent wood decay any more than any other decent paint made with non-lead solids. It never did and it never will. It will last longer than a lot of other paints and it is particularly effective in preventing rust on ferrous metals, but it has no fungicidal properties.

Lead oxide (not lead itself) is toxic. To do any damage, it must be ingested: inhaled or swallowed. Lead oxide forms on the outside of lead when exposed to the elements or other more aggressive oxidation causes. If solid lead is swallowed, stomach acid will cause the lead to oxidize as well. Lead is not excreted from the body and so builds up in the system where it causes damage to bodily organs and can result in brain damage. We all have a certain amount of it floating around in our systems and, given environmental exposure, there's little that can be done about it. Lead oxide is sweet tasting and it was said that poor children ate lead paint flakes peeling from the walls of public housing projects and substandard housing, which was offered as an explanation for why children (generally "of color") growing up in those environments were less intelligent and more prone to committing crime than children (generally "white") who did not. There has never been any real scientific proof of this, but the sweetness of lead oxide might lead one to believe a child might eat it. The rest of the "theory" was likely more politically motivated than anything else and, although for these reasons lead paint has not been in use in non-industrial applications for about forty years now, we have the statistics to indicate what we have known all along: poverty and unequal educational opportunity cause crime and more poverty, not lead paint. Certainly, though, "chalking" lead paint when in wide use, put a lot of lead oxide into the environment in close proximity to people, especially when used in and around living quarters, and that dust was inhaled, so reducing it was overall a good thing, particularly for small children because the proportion of lead in their smaller body mass was greater than in an adult and so the detrimental effects were proportionately greater.

That said, if you don't inhale a lot of lead oxide powder and wash your hands and clothing after handling lead and lead oxide powder (especially if sanding it,) you aren't likely to suffer any noticeable ill effects. Lead oxide paint has been prohibited in most applications for a couple of generations now and if these younger generations are any indication, their intelligence hasn't benefited any from their having been protected from the widely touted dread effects of lead exposure.

Red lead paint continues to be used in traditional boatbuilding because it is traditional more than anything else. Due to now-limited production, it certainly isn't cheap anymore and there are any number of sealers, from thinned alkyd paints to penetrating epoxy sealers (e.g. CPES) that do as good, if not better, a job than red lead paint for a fraction of the cost. Still, tradition being what it is, there's nothing that makes a hull in frame look like the builder really "knows what he's doing" than a coat of red lead primer! And, as said, lead based paint is darn good paint and it's an excellent choice for that application. For my money though, these days, unless someone is doing a "museum quality" restoration, there really isn't much sense to using it, given its cost.

Maybe at least thirty or forty years ago, Dolphinite used to be called "Dolphinite Fungicidal Bedding Compound." It is now called "Dolphinite Bedding Compound" because the enviro-nannies made them take the fungicide out of it. If memory serves, Dolphinite used to contain copper napthenate and tributyl tin oxide ("TBTO,") as did most good bottom paints. The old "good stuff" Dolphinitie used to have a greenish copper napthenate-looking liquid that would rise to the top and you'd have to stir it in before use. TBTO was an extremely effective "heavy metal" biocide which was the same thing they'd sell in little bottles to add to paint for bathrooms and such to prevent mold, which it did very well. TBTO has been pretty much outlawed worldwide because it builds up in the environment and keeps on killing rot spores, mold, seaweed and marine borers, which was exactly what it was intended to do. Now, instead, we have a whole multi-billion dollar "mold abatement" industry and people suing their landlords over "mold allergies." (It is still available in extremely limited quantities and sold under strict government regulation for licensed use only in specific applications such as an anti-fouling paint additive for use on underwater scientific instrumentation like temperature recording equipment on NOAA bouys and SOSUS anti-submarine monitoring system microphones.) Unless you have some forty year old left over "Di-Al" ("Die-all,") anti-mold additive in your paint locker, about the best you can do to "fortify" today's Dolphinite is add some Cupronol or pentachlorophenol (sale outlawed to all but licensed applicators since 2004) to it. If you want your Dolphinite to be the color of whatever orange and dark brown might be (a lighter shade of brown?) or to be thicker (which makes little sense, as it thickens as it dries and would have to be thinned in order to be spreadable after adding the red lead oxide anyway) you can add red lead oxide to it, but Dolphinite needs red lead added to it about as much as a fish needs a bicycle.

Hugh Conway
08-29-2015, 03:37 PM
The copper (or a zinc version) is liquid. I believe its water based so it wont bond molecularly with the oil based putty, but the solids will keep it in suspension if you mix it in to the goop.

Cuprinol? Cuprinol #10 was Copper Napthenate (22% by weight) with Mineral Spirits + Paraffin Oil.

If you want Copper napthenate go to your vet/equine supply place; thrush treatments are often Copper napthenate in a mineral spirit suspension - Kopertox is 37.5% Copper napthenate by weight in mineral spirits - it's even available in California. There are also generics. Read the MSDS and experiment.

Jay Greer
08-29-2015, 03:43 PM
You are right Bob as to red lead not having anti fungal properties. If it does, there is not much mentioned on it to be found on line. So, I suppose the idea of it killing mold must be folk lore as you point out. I have used it, mostly, for boat applications as it makes up a good water resistant coating for painting bilges. While it may be a myth, bilges I have treated with it seem to have remained free of mold for many many years. There can be no argument as to how it resists moisture intrusion as well as oxidation of iron which must be the cause of it still being used by the Navy for so many years as a primer. It is still used for rust protectionl on most equipment in shipyards as well as The Golden Gate as well as many other steel and iron structures the world over. I still use it as a primer in specific areas of boat construction and will continue to do so. In addition, white lead is the only product I have found to be effective for laying canvas decks as it effectively does not dry out and keeps its thick suface which cushions the canvas. I have seen canvas decks that are nearly forty five years old that were set down in white lead that is still doing its job as intended.
I do believe that those of us who are aware of lead's inherent toxic dangers can work with it by exercising due caution and can continue to use it benificaly in our work.
For that matter, I still like drafting weights that are made of lead for holding my drawing spline battens in place.
Thanks for your very informative and interesting posting on lead and its toxic properties.
Jay
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3d800b3127ccef33e4734d5f300000030O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107990352120130621212620104.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

J.Madison
08-30-2015, 12:10 AM
Cuprinol is exactly the stuff to use Hugh, but I don't believe its made anymore. Copper Naphtenate (sp?) was the main ingredient I believe. Available at your local big box store as a wood preservative, mostly for fence posts and wood in contact with ground.

Check the ingredients on the back. I'm not sure if its in higher or lower concentration than the vet stuff.

Lead is great and I use it all the time, but I don't believe mixing in bedding compound is the right place for it.

Canoeyawl
08-30-2015, 10:09 AM
In the environment, lead is known to be toxic to plants, animals, and microorganisms. Effects are generally limited to especially contaminated areas [21]. Pb contamination in the environment exists as an insoluble form, and the toxic metals pose serious human health problem, namely, brain damage and retardation [5].link (http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijce/2011/939161/)

As far as the old wives tales concerning "people of color" eating lead paint! Lead and other dangerous toxins have been emitted into the environment and carried downwind as long as populations have been concentrated. The downwind populations are always the least desirable properties and concentrations of poverty collet there. The children have no choice, and the damage from these toxins even at low levels is critical in younger humans.
A cavalier attitude about this is irresponsible.

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2012/pollution-poverty-and-people-of-color-richmond-day-1

Jay Greer
08-30-2015, 12:40 PM
One of the causes of humans choosing to consume lead is that lead oxide is said to be very sweet in taste. In Roman times it was often added to sour wine and foods to make it more palatable. Lead was also used for plates and goblets as well.
Jay

Gerarddm
08-30-2015, 01:15 PM
^ Which is one theory of why the Roman empire eventually declined.

drcoastline
08-30-2015, 05:38 PM
OK, well that answer puts a twist in my plan. I suppose I will just use the Dolfinite straight from the tin. If the red lead isn't going to add any antifungal properties as I was under the impression no need to go messing around with it. It also doesn't appear I need to be mixing any into paint or spending any money on Kirby's. The boat is 58 years old so I guess there really isn't a need for the red lead.

Thanks for all the posts and information.

Jay Greer
08-31-2015, 12:36 PM
Saved you a bit of $ we hope!
Jay

Bob Cleek
08-31-2015, 05:13 PM
You are right Bob as to red lead not having anti fungal properties. If it does, there is not much mentioned on it to be found on line. So, I suppose the idea of it killing mold must be folk lore as you point out. I have used it, mostly, for boat applications as it makes up a good water resistant coating for painting bilges. While it may be a myth, bilges I have treated with it seem to have remained free of mold for many many years. There can be no argument as to how it resists moisture intrusion as well as oxidation of iron which must be the cause of it still being used by the Navy for so many years as a primer. It is still used for rust protectionl on most equipment in shipyards as well as The Golden Gate as well as many other steel and iron structures the world over. I still use it as a primer in specific areas of boat construction and will continue to do so. In addition, white lead is the only product I have found to be effective for laying canvas decks as it effectively does not dry out and keeps its thick suface which cushions the canvas. I have seen canvas decks that are nearly forty five years old that were set down in white lead that is still doing its job as intended.
I do believe that those of us who are aware of lead's inherent toxic dangers can work with it by exercising due caution and can continue to use it benificaly in our work.
For that matter, I still like drafting weights that are made of lead for holding my drawing spline battens in place.
Thanks for your very informative and interesting posting on lead and its toxic properties.
Jay


I agree completely, Jay, and if red lead paint and white lead paste weren't so incredibly costly and difficult to source (Thank God for George Kirby, a true "national treasure.") it would be my "drug of choice." The problem is the cost of the stuff at present, relative to the alternative options available.

I will tug on your coat sleeve a bit about the shipyards and the Golden Gate Bridge using red lead paid. The Golden Gate Bridge District spent huge amounts starting the late '60's to "decontaminate" the entire structure at huge expense by stripping all the old red lead off of the bridge and replacing it with zinc primer and vinyl topcoats, then later again, to go to water-based acrylic "coating" to comply with EPA VOC regulations.

"By 1968, advancing corrosion sparked a program to remove the original lead based paint (primer and topcoat) and replace it with an inorganic zinc silicate primer and vinyl topcoats. This process was completed in 1995. Note that in 1990, the topcoat was changed from a vinyl to an acrylic emulsion to meet air quality (Volatile Organic Compounds or VOC) requirements." http://goldengatebridge.org/research/factsGGBIntOrngPaint.php

Similarly, the Navy has complied with all OSHA regulations since their promulgation, by policy, if not practice, and as far as I know, lead-based paint is no longer regularly used by the Navy, although white lead paste lubricants may still be in use.

The Third International Conference on the Technical Aspects of the Preservation of Historic Vessels - Conference Proceedings (http://www.maritime.org/conf/index.htm) published a detailed and fascinating (to a wonk like me, at least) paper on lead-based paint abatement by the Navy on the USS Wisconsin and USS Iowa in the early 1990's: Lead Paint And OSHA Regulations: Scraping the Voids on the USS Iowa and the USS Wisconsin by James Houk. This paper describes the nightmare encountered when the lead paint in the "voids" (air-tight void compartments in the ships' armor plating systems) was ordered removed and repainting done with non-lead paint. This paper describes the effects of men crawling into spaces, sometimes on their bellies, to scrape and grind flaking lead paint and rust from the steel bulkheads, decks and overheads of these voids as were monitored by the Navy and OSHA. The purpose of the paper was to apply those findings to working with lead in maritime museum restorations and maintenance of historic vessels, an enterprise that, while generally on a much greater scale, is otherwise similar to the work wooden boat owners do on their own boats.

Not surprisingly, the overall finding was that despite exposure to horrendous amounts of lead dust in the air (visibility of less that fifteen feet in some instances,) the implementation of "common sense" precautions (e.g. respirators, HEPA vacuums and hygiene protocols) resulted in huge reductions of blood/lead levels in the worker's bloodstreams, even far below the "baseline" blood/lead levels exhibited by some workers upon their being hired. ("Many workers left this job with lower blood lead levels than they had possessed at the time they were hired. In one case an employee started his employment with a blood lead level of 15 ug/dl and ended with a level of only 2.1 ug/dl. Considering that the maximum permissible level allowed by OSHA regulation is 50 ug/dl this clearly demonstrates that meticulous personal hygiene and careful work practices can make a significant difference in the amount of lead absorbed by a worker.")

Interestingly, the thrust of the paper was not that OSHA regulations must be followed to protect workers from lead exposure, so much as that OSHA regulations must be followed to protect employers, here maritime museums, from OSHA fines, frivolous employee lawsuits and pretextural union job actions that risk their incurring huge financial liability! What we can take away from that is that "lead exposure," while a health hazard, is hardly the danger it's often made out to be, and is nothing to be feared if proper, and simple, handling and exposure protocols are followed. The findings included, "Judging by the data taken onboard the USS Iowa and the USS Wisconsin it is probable that the amount of lead encountered by museum workers will be below the threshold that necessitates a full scale lead control program." That said, it isn't likely that the average wooden boat owner would need a "full scale lead control program" as OSHA defines it to work on their boat. Indeed, the study found that despite working in cramped enclosed tanks and spaces grinding clouds of lead-based paint dust, "In fact, with very few exceptions, the air tests taken of the working environment indicated that the void workers could have legally worked without their respirators and at no point did the exposure level exceed the protection factor offered by the half mask respirators that were issued."

I found the paper is a fascinating read, perhaps because I have worked with the Navy's historic vessel donation program and have dealt with their meticulous lead, asbestos, PCB's and other toxics abatement regulations, but I'd recommend it to anyone who is "scared of lead." As has become so often the case with environmental regulations, the regulations become "the tail that wags the dog." Billions have been, are being, and will be spent, out of all proportion to the risks entailed, not to address the risks, but primarily to avoid liability for the adverse consequences of failing to comply with the regulations. The paper is a real education in the effects of that phenomenon on the maritime industry, maritime museums, and even the recreational boating public. At the end of the day, the loss of well proven effective materials and the hugely increased cost of those that remain and those that replace the "tried and true" comes out of our pockets. Some may decry my "cavalier attitude" about environmental concerns as they relate to working on wooden boats, but I believe that in many cases, given proper use of the materials and commonsense work habits, there is no need for the draconian regulations that elevate form over function. I doubt any toddler ever lost a single brain cell eating paint chips off the ground in a boatyard.

drcoastline
09-01-2015, 06:08 PM
Saved you a bit of $ we hope!
Jay

In the long run... yes, and the hassle of messing with nasty stuff. I did buy 1lb. of red lead prior to my post, $21.00 but no big deal. I am in NJ we are one big super fund site I can find some place to dump it. :) Just kidding. Not sure what I am going to do with it at this point. maybe put it in a coffee can put it in my attic and let someone 50 years from now deal with it.

Slacko
09-01-2015, 07:37 PM
My thoughts on this are that as Jay and Bob both mention, it is an excellent primer that sticks to wood so well that it inhibits moisture intrusion.
Owners, seeing that anything painted with it doesn't rot (as quickly) have decided that it is antifungal.
The topcoats also stick to it really well too.

It also makes stripping topcoats off really easy with a heatgun and scraper.
I stripped all the cedar windows in a 50 year old house that had been primed with red lead in a weekend.
Hot knife through butter with the topcoats without touching the primer, then two coats of topcoat and ready to go again.
There was not a scrap of rot in any of the windows or frames.
I had 2 people painting who were just keeping up.

Jay Greer
09-02-2015, 04:20 PM
Well Bob your information is certainly always impressive! I drive over that red bridge quite often never suspecting that they took the lead out!
Thanks for the info. It just goes to show that those who keep there eyes and ears open are most apt to learn something new!

Incidently do you know about
Devcon Z ? For priming ferrous metals it is the best Zinc based primer on the market . A quart of it weighs almost thirty pounds. Invented during WWII for the USN it can keep those unsightly hull weepers under control on an iron fastened wooden hull.
Jay

Bob Cleek
09-03-2015, 03:42 PM
Incidently do you know about Devcon Z ? For priming ferrous metals it is the best Zinc based primer on the market . A quart of it weighs almost thirty pounds. Invented during WWII for the USN it can keep those unsightly hull weepers under control on an iron fastened wooden hull.
Jay

Well, not exactly.... I am familiar with Detco Z Cold Galvanizing Compound (or Paint, for those of us who still speak the old language.) There are several on the market, including one by Rustoleum. https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/DigitalEncyclopedia/Documents/RustoleumUSA/TDS/English/CBG/Stops%20Rust/SRT-13_Stops_Rust_Cold_Galvanizing_Spray_TDS.ashx Detco is supposed to be one of the best, but I can't remember off hand the brand of the stuff I've got sitting on the shelf in my "paint locker." It's basically zinc powder in a paint base. The zinc works as it should, but only so long as the paint film that is carrying it remains intact. (Detco Z's "paint" IIRC is a one-part epoxy. Rustoleum's is an alkyd.) I always have a spray can on hand and use it whenever I want a good undercoat on ferrous metal. It was a chain-link fence installer that first introduced it to me. All he had on a job was a bare steel fitting and no hot dipped ones. He only needed that one fitting and installed it and whipped out a spray can and sprayed it. He told me to give him a call if the part started rusting and he'd bring out a hot-dipped one, but "that ought to hold her for now." I never called because over a period of five years or so that I owned it, the part never showed any signs of rust! Since then, I've used it to stop "bleeders" and it seems to have done the job. It's very important to clean out the loose rust and crud off the countersunk fitting head (I use a small diameter wire brush in a chucked in a Dremel or drill motor.) I then give the hole and fastening head and about an inch all around a good spray of the stuff, let it dry and replace the plug and refinish as usual. I haven't seen a bleeder start up again after that. I expect the fix should last as long as it might take for moisture and air to get the rust going again, in which case you do it over again.

Bob Cleek
09-03-2015, 03:44 PM
Incidently do you know about Devcon Z ? For priming ferrous metals it is the best Zinc based primer on the market . A quart of it weighs almost thirty pounds. Invented during WWII for the USN it can keep those unsightly hull weepers under control on an iron fastened wooden hull.
Jay

Well, not exactly.... My weight conversion program tells me a quart of molten zinc weighs 18.71 pounds, so, no, I'm not familiar with a thirty pound quart of cold galvanizing paint! (I know, it must have been a typo!) :D

I am familiar with Detco Z Cold Galvanizing Compound (or Paint, for those of us who still speak the old language.) Good stuff. There are several on the market, including one by Rustoleum. https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/DigitalEncyclopedia/Documents/RustoleumUSA/TDS/English/CBG/Stops%20Rust/SRT-13_Stops_Rust_Cold_Galvanizing_Spray_TDS.ashx Detco is supposed to be one of the best, but I can't remember off hand the brand of the stuff I've got sitting on the shelf in my "paint locker" at the moment. It's basically zinc powder in a paint base. The zinc works as it should, but only so long as the paint film that is carrying it remains intact. (Detco Z's "paint" IIRC is a one-part epoxy. Rustoleum's is an alkyd.) I always have a spray can on hand and use it whenever I want a good undercoat on ferrous metal. It was a chain-link fence installer that first introduced it to me. All he had on a job was a bare steel fitting and no hot dipped ones. He only needed that one fitting and installed it and whipped out a spray can and sprayed it. He told me to give him a call if the part started rusting and he'd bring out a hot-dipped one, but "that ought to hold her for now." I never called because over a period of five years or so that I owned it, the part never showed any signs of rust! Since then, I've used it to stop "bleeders" and it seems to have done the job. It's very important to clean out the loose rust and crud off the countersunk fitting head (I use a small diameter wire brush in a chucked in a Dremel or drill motor.) I then give the hole and fastening head and about an inch all around a good spray of the stuff, let it dry and replace the plug and refinish as usual. I haven't seen a bleeder start up again after that. I expect the fix should last as long as it might take for moisture and air to get the rust going again, in which case you do it over again.

Jay Greer
09-11-2015, 12:30 PM
Quite frankly, the weight is just a wild comment on my part. In truth a quart of the product weighs six pounds I have always regarded it as just being damn heavy as it is reported that the product is around 95% pure zinc. The owner of the Owens Cruiser agency first made me aware of it as his seaside home was steel framed. Stan Marshal had it built in 1949 and primed it with Devcon Z prior to laying on a coat of black enamel. The house is still there and is still rust free. Best darn primer for ferris metals I have ever seen or used. http://www.devcon.com/techinfo/115.pdf
Jay