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stripperguy
07-23-2015, 02:11 PM
Hi All,
I get that this is a wooden boat forum. my apologies. If you read on, you will see that I love wood but have a dilemma. Anyone that has read my previous posts will know I love both wood and steel. But In attempting to build a glen-l Fred Murphy in steel(I would not do that boat in wood), I have once again injured my back.

preface: The Fred Murphy in steel is a very technical build and recently I am seeing that the KISS principle rules all...


So, after recently injuring my back during my Fred Murphy build, the white coats have told me if I keep doing this heavy type of work(needing to lift certain heavy plates such as 1/2 inch keel plates to and from the trucks in pieces) that I will be in a wheelchair, within a couple years. ouch!:eek::confused:
~~~

I have subsequently stopped my FM build.
there were other mitigating factors too. but wont get into that here.

BUT I love this other design and it fits into the KISS principle :

a Bateaux websites, "GT cruiser" 23 ft'er. apparently I cannot upload this pic since there is no way to delete any other pics I have on this site...no matter.

My question is this.

Could the GT cruiser be built in steel? or Honeycomb? Actually I am sure it could but would it be practical?
Would it be too heavy? or nominally more so?


I am deviating from wood in this case for the simple reason I have a lot of steel invested in the other build. so I would lose it all if I scrap it. that's about 7 cents on the dollar right now. I have about 3500.00 invested. Scrapping it would mean about 270.00 back to me. the rest is a loss. including the PITA in trying to retool, and sell my steel tools, which would also mean a significant loss. Sadly no one really wants a half built steel boat...


In building a steel Gt cruiser, I would use a wood superstructure and build the hull in steel. I don't plan on using it as a planing vessel.

I could easily build it in honeycomb since I have a load of it really cheap. but I lose my steel...

I am thinking steel would make it bulletproof. using 1/8th plate. light framing and stiffening.?

any thoughts?


part 2.

I could build a Buehlers "Riverwalker" it also could easily be built in steel or wood. and in fact I redesigned it slightly with a rockered bottom to stop or at least, decrease any pounding substantially, I need a roomy but seaworthy Great lakes cruiser. with low power requirements.

My question is, would it be a pig in rough weather? given the rockered bottom and displacement speeds I'm guessing that a good engine would help that and using a good sized skeg as a leeway preventer, it might e pretty good, since Mal Lows tugs are the same basic idea. ? see www.smalltugs.com (http://www.smalltugs.com) white paper 2. he states that a flat bottom boat is as seaworthy as any other, and that you could use it reasonably in any weather that a typical boat of any kind of its same size and displacement could go into. he recommends not being stupid about though. I am thinking it could be fine. Mr Buehler, does not think the flat bottom would be good. but I have added a good amount of rocker, similar to many sailboats I have seen such as Jim Michalak's and Bolger's.


I am hoping to NOT lose my investment in steel.

positive advice welcomed.

Doug

TerryLL
07-23-2015, 02:41 PM
The GT Cruiser looks like a good candidate for metal plate construction, either steel or aluminum. I've helped build several aluminum skiffs that were initially drawn for S&G ply construction. The plate dimension need not be altered, but the framing, especially the bottom, requires some degree of skill and experience to get right. These skiffs were intended for hard use in Alaska, so they were built stout, with very robust bottom framing to minimize flexing.

stripperguy
07-23-2015, 03:34 PM
The GT Cruiser looks like a good candidate for metal plate construction, either steel or aluminum. I've helped build several aluminum skiffs that were initially drawn for S&G ply construction. The plate dimension need not be altered, but the framing, especially the bottom, requires some degree of skill and experience to get right. These skiffs were intended for hard use in Alaska, so they were built stout, with very robust bottom framing to minimize flexing.

Awesome.
I was thinking of buying the plans and inputting it into Rhino. Then I could contour the hull and get the frames. I would be tempted to use 1/8" frames as well or perhaps with this angle would make good frames, then use a few 1/4" stiffeners. I believe the displacement is there for it to work.
thanks Terry! I'll see what other issues arise...

TerryLL
07-23-2015, 03:43 PM
Just a question.
Why are you building in steel instead of aluminum?

stripperguy
07-23-2015, 04:14 PM
Just a question.
Why are you building in steel instead of aluminum?

I have a lot of steel from a build I was not able to complete. I don't want to waste it. so I have to build a steel boat. its outlined in my first post...|:)

Phil Y
07-23-2015, 04:20 PM
Read Thornes post about posting pictures. It ain't hard. And listen to your doctor. Scrap the steel.

TerryLL
07-23-2015, 05:58 PM
I have a lot of steel from a build I was not able to complete. I don't want to waste it. so I have to build a steel boat. its outlined in my first post...|:)

Yes, I saw that in the OP, but why did you select steel in the first place for the previous boat? The Fred Murphy plans specify aluminum as an option. Just curious really, as to what factored into that choice.

stripperguy
07-23-2015, 06:07 PM
steel is fast, cheap, strong, and the weight of the hull would help to punch through the waves. I like to weld but never really got into AL.
I was on some meds for a year and they seemed to be working. so I thought, "this will be my last boat, I'll just build this and then I will have it...I have wanted a true tug for years...

jpatrick
07-24-2015, 10:02 AM
Or, how about investing in some lifting mechanisms? A gantry with chain hoist and an engine lift will go far to keep weight off your back. The work goes slower, that's for sure. But you get to enjoy it more. Think of it this way…. if you were working in a large fabrication shop that really cares for its workers, you'd never be allowed to lift anything over 50 pounds. Or less.

Jeff

BrianM
07-24-2015, 02:24 PM
I have once again injured my back.

preface: The Fred Murphy in steel is a very technical build and recently I am seeing that the KISS principle rules all....the white coats have told me if I keep doing this heavy type of work(needing to lift certain heavy plates such as 1/2 inch keel plates to and from the trucks in pieces) that I will be in a wheelchair, within a couple years. ouch!:eek::confused:
~~~

Doug


Doug.. if you haven't already, find a certified Yoga teacher, and get to it. My back is now in excellent shape in spite of the 3 bulging lumber discs by vigorous and discipline Yoga and exercise. Don't go to some group class to start off. You need 1 on 1 instruction from a Certified Instructor ("YogaOne" is an excellent national institution with teachers who will keep you safe) to not compound the back injury. A group class will not allow the instructor to micro manage you until you figure out good form and this is critical.

My wife is a certified instructor from Yoga One and I've personally seen her bring back YOUTH to 3 women with bad to very severe back and pain disabilities. DO IT!

Fix your back, and quit re-injuring it by learning what you need to know at "Back School".

This is more important than boat building if i can temporarily speak as a heretic. You can't enjoy a boat that even someone ELSE builds for you if you are laid up.

stripperguy
07-24-2015, 02:45 PM
Or, how about investing in some lifting mechanisms? A gantry with chain hoist and an engine lift will go far to keep weight off your back. The work goes slower, that's for sure. But you get to enjoy it more. Think of it this way…. if you were working in a large fabrication shop that really cares for its workers, you'd never be allowed to lift anything over 50 pounds. Or less.

Jeff

Hi Jeff, I have a huge gantry. I tried uploading it, but cannot figure out how to put large pics on here.
in the end you still have to muscle around some plate at times.|:)

Oldad
07-24-2015, 05:18 PM
you might be in luck. I built the GY23 in wood, plywood that is. The design, I understand he has two version now, has a flaw. I built the earlier version as did several others and found the boat did not trim as it should. Way down by the bow. Standing water in the for and after deck couldn't reach the scuppers as they were located as if the boat would trim level. When I saw an earlier builder have problems I moved my cabin back 8 feet figuring it would move the LCB to a more normal trim. It helped but I was still trimming down by the bow. I added 365 pounds of lead back by the transom and that made it right. I had several discussions with the designer and that is when he came up with the second version with "fuller bows". Looking at that design I am not convinced it is fixed. If I were to build her again I would move the cabin all the way to the transom with the motor on an Armstrong bracket.
If you google "cruising houseboat" you will find my blog documenting the build.(you will need to go to earlier posts, the more recent ones are of my Nina build).
I believe it could be built in steel. If memory serves there are 35 water tight compartments under the sole building in plywood and glass. Not sure how you could accomplish the watertight quality in steel. You might be able to adjust trim with water ballast. I considered that for a while and then dumped the lead and added more scuppers to drain the standing water.
Jacqies and his folks are great to work with, not suer they can help with your conversion though. Best of luck.

stripperguy
07-24-2015, 05:41 PM
Big ouch again!

Ok, so now that's pretty much enough to decide to stay away from that. I very much appreciate your input. If you are correct about the trim issues, then I might have made another huge error. If something is not proven after its been built, I think I would stay away from it.
Not sure what my solution to the steel build is. I wanted to save my steel, and I really thought I had the solution in a GT 23. I have another thread going right now with an SOR, and people there have been so helpful. But I think I am going to scratch that design off the list. with all due respect to bateaux...they have amazing designs but I just cant take that chance..:(

stripperguy
07-24-2015, 08:29 PM
I had to laugh...I look like the Buddha. I'm am overweight and me doing yoga... a good analogy would be Fred Flintstone trying to be a ballerina! I am popping codeine by the handfuls and bearing the excruciating morning pain. I keep telling myself...its only one more day of pain...

basically I just need to live long enough to enjoy my boat for a few years...anything after that will be pure guava. I will say, that I may have this last build in me. after that, If I don't work, i.e. nothing physical, my back stays relatively bearable. For me that means a 5 out of 10 on the pain "Richter"...
|I will simply will it into existence if necessary. i.e. My mind will always be more powerful than any pain killer known. so I can ignore the pain long enough to do what I gotta do. after that, I will rest. There are no guarantees in building a boat. its in the journey that we gotta find the joy. yea the outcome IS the bliss..

.but its a pretty simple axiom: " there is no try only do or don't do..." (Mr. Miyagi...Karate Kid)

your concern is much appreciated...cheers!

stripperguy
07-24-2015, 08:33 PM
Doug.. if you haven't already, find a certified Yoga teacher, and get to it. My back is now in excellent shape in spite of the 3 bulging lumber discs by vigorous and discipline Yoga and exercise. Don't go to some group class to start off. You need 1 on 1 instruction from a Certified Instructor ("YogaOne" is an excellent national institution with teachers who will keep you safe) to not compound the back injury. A group class will not allow the instructor to micro manage you until you figure out good form and this is critical.

My wife is a certified instructor from Yoga One and I've personally seen her bring back YOUTH to 3 women with bad to very severe back and pain disabilities. DO IT!

Fix your back, and quit re-injuring it by learning what you need to know at "Back School".

This is more important than boat building if i can temporarily speak as a heretic. You can't enjoy a boat that even someone ELSE builds for you if you are laid up.

I had to laugh...I look like the Buddha. I'm am overweight and me doing yoga... a good analogy would be Fred Flintstone trying to be a ballerina! I am popping codeine by the handfuls and bearing the excruciating morning pain. I keep telling myself...its only one more day of pain...

basically I just need to live long enough to enjoy my boat for a few years...anything after that will be pure guava. I will say, that I may have this last build in me. after that, If I don't work, i.e. nothing physical, my back stays relatively bearable. For me that means a 5 out of 10 on the pain "Richter"...
|I will simply will it into existence if necessary. i.e. My mind will always be more powerful than any pain killer known. so I can ignore the pain long enough to do what I gotta do. after that, I will rest. There are no guarantees in building a boat. its in the journey that we gotta find the joy. yea the outcome IS the bliss..

but its a pretty simple axiom: " there is no try only do or don't do..." (Mr. Miyagi...Karate Kid)

I cannot not try"!


your concern is much appreciated...cheers!

stripperguy
07-25-2015, 06:17 PM
thanks for the info mates!