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CWSmith
06-17-2015, 01:34 PM
In case you don't know, there is a new phenomenon in our colleges and universities. Ten to twenty years ago, the Chinese students coming here were very hard working, the cream of the crop, who had to pass through many hoops (and tests) to get here. They came with little money and a strong motivation to do well.

Today our colleges are seeing a massive influx of wealthy Chinese students. The first thing they seem to do is buy a very expensive car. They are the children of the Chinese nouveau riche.

I'm not saying this to be a racist jerk or to complain about foreign students. What I am saying is that in a time when the American economy seems to be light on good jobs and heavy on profitable investments, there is an exploding economy that seems to be doing quite well. Does it make sense to drive ourselves deeper into debt with these same people while we fail to make basic investments in infrastructure and education? Is that how we get ahead?

Anthony Zucker
06-17-2015, 02:28 PM
CW;

Those students are helping what's left of our economy. At least they are bringing a little loose change back here. My daughter has taught them in grad school at Boston U and tells me that poorly dressed ones are getting Chinese govt scholarships and the well dressed ones are spending Daddy's money. And guess which group has better grades.

Ted Hoppe
06-17-2015, 03:06 PM
CW;

Those students are helping what's left of our economy. At least they are bringing a little loose change back here. My daughter has taught them in grad school at Boston U and tells me that poorly dressed ones are getting Chinese govt scholarships and the well dressed ones are spending Daddy's money. And guess which group has better grades.

i can't afford to send my son there in 3 years....

Boston University Tuition
Full-time (fall & spring) $47,422 per year
Part-time (fall & spring) $1,482 per credit *plus Applied fees if applicable

Dave Wright
06-17-2015, 05:53 PM
i can't afford to send my son there in 3 years....

Boston University Tuition
Full-time (fall & spring) $47,422 per year
Part-time (fall & spring) $1,482 per credit *plus Applied fees if applicable

If you could afford to send him, wouldn't it make much more sense to send him to the College of Alameda for the first two years and have him live at home. Then place $45,000 in a tax deferred annuity in his name each year, and cover a years tuition and books with the $2,422 balance.

After two years your then twenty year old son has $90,000 in a tax deferred annuity, working for him for the next 40 or more years, plus he has a two year community college diploma that might qualify him for a job, with potentially all credits earned transferable to a four year college.

A gift to your son that maybe far better than paying for him to go to that four year college right off the bat.

Michael D. Storey
06-17-2015, 06:23 PM
In case you don't know, there is a new phenomenon in our colleges and universities. Ten to twenty years ago, the Chinese students coming here were very hard working, the cream of the crop, who had to pass through many hoops (and tests) to get here. They came with little money and a strong motivation to do well.

Today our colleges are seeing a massive influx of wealthy Chinese students. The first thing they seem to do is buy a very expensive car. They are the children of the Chinese nouveau riche.

I'm not saying this to be a racist jerk or to complain about foreign students. What I am saying is that in a time when the American economy seems to be light on good jobs and heavy on profitable investments, there is an exploding economy that seems to be doing quite well. Does it make sense to drive ourselves deeper into debt with these same people while we fail to make basic investments in infrastructure and education? Is that how we get ahead?

The Boy does contract writing on the side. Little stuff, a few hours, a quick $500. It is the Saudis who want him to write work for their university assignments. He gets offers of up to $5500 to take an on-line course and pass it with an A

skuthorp
06-17-2015, 06:30 PM
OS students are big money for the colleges, and yes most seem to be the scions of the moneyed elite. There are problems in that if you pay big money to send your kid to a university in another country you expect a return on investment, aka a degree regardless of whether it has been earned.
Here the property market has been skewed somewhat by some of these students transferring their parents possibly dodgy cash to a safe place by buying very expensive real estate.
Let's hope that push never comes to shove between the US and China, things might get very messy indeed.

CWSmith
06-17-2015, 07:08 PM
Let's hope that push never comes to shove between the US and China, things might get very messy indeed.

I don't pretend to understand finance, but we're selling our debt to a country that seems to be our #1 reason for our navy in the Pacific and their economy seems to be going better than ours. On top of that, we're not investing in our infrastructure which seems necessary to pulling our economy out of the hole it's in. These students are just an indication of how wrong we are.

Dave Wright
06-17-2015, 07:29 PM
The Boy does contract writing on the side. Little stuff, a few hours, a quick $500. It is the Saudis who want him to write work for their university assignments. He gets offers of up to $5500 to take an on-line course and pass it with an A


Interesting. 50 years ago when I was in college I experienced three incidents with Saudi students. One incident of quite imaginative dishonesty in cheating, and two cases of wanting to copy lab work. I consciously tried after that, not to have negative preconceived notions about Saudis. I was somewhat successful in keeping my mind open, but also fond myself tending to avoid them. Now you mention this business; not good news.

Ted Hoppe
06-17-2015, 09:58 PM
If you could afford to send him, wouldn't it make much more sense to send him to the College of Alameda for the first two years and have him live at home. Then place $45,000 in a tax deferred annuity in his name each year, and cover a years tuition and books with the $2,422 balance.

After two years your then twenty year old son has $90,000 in a tax deferred annuity, working for him for the next 40 or more years, plus he has a two year community college diploma that might qualify him for a job, with potentially all credits earned transferable to a four year college.

A gift to your son that maybe far better than paying for him to go to that four year college right off the bat.

Here's the thing - modern education isn't about the learning in the age off googling and Siri. Sending the heir to his meager Hoppe fortune to a Univeristy that has connections in business, finance or technology could pay off better than 90k annuity would not last and a 2 year community college education. I am sure he is capable of learning how to make a great cappicihino or setting the table with chop sticks but I would doubt he could make a living with his hands. I will need to expand the garage into his private lair as he figured out what else he could do until he was elected to city council or hope that his physical skills as a wide receiver can send him (and I on the long weekends) to San Deigo State.

Michael D. Storey
06-18-2015, 08:50 AM
Interesting. 50 years ago when I was in college I experienced three incidents with Saudi students. One incident of quite imaginative dishonesty in cheating, and two cases of wanting to copy lab work. I consciously tried after that, not to have negative preconceived notions about Saudis. I was somewhat successful in keeping my mind open, but also fond myself tending to avoid them. Now you mention this business; not good news.
His experience is a universe of three cases. It is a test, at my age, when they are beyond instructions from the Old Man, and he passed with an A, by turning them down.

Dave Wright
06-18-2015, 09:31 AM
Here's the thing - modern education isn't about the learning in the age off googling and Siri. Sending the heir to his meager Hoppe fortune to a Univeristy that has connections in business, finance or technology could pay off better than 90k annuity would not last and a 2 year community college education. I am sure he is capable of learning how to make a great cappicihino or setting the table with chop sticks but I would doubt he could make a living with his hands. I will need to expand the garage into his private lair as he figured out what else he could do until he was elected to city council or hope that his physical skills as a wide receiver can send him (and I on the long weekends) to San Deigo State.

I don't understand??? My suggestion was that he go to whatever four year college you or he wished for the last two years. If there are really benefits of connection available at a particular four year college, are you saying he couldn't access those benefits if he only attends for his junior and senior years???

Also I don't understand the cappuccino stuff? The fundamental theorem of calculus is the same at a community college as at a big name college. However in the former your son may be taught by the same approachable and accessible instructor five days a week in a classroom of 20 students. In the latter he may receive lectures from a disinterested professor in a lecture hall of 200 students, three days a week, and see an even more disinterested graduate student TA two days a week.

A whizz at self teaching can do well at a big name four year college, a more normal individual can do just as well from potentially a little more attention those first two years (and save a lot of money).

Ted Hoppe
06-18-2015, 02:41 PM
I don't understand??? My suggestion was that he go to whatever four year college you or he wished for the last two years. If there are really benefits of connection available at a particular four year college, are you saying he couldn't access those benefits if he only attends for his junior and senior years???

Also I don't understand the cappuccino stuff? The fundamental theorem of calculus is the same at a community college as at a big name college. However in the former your son may be taught by the same approachable and accessible instructor five days a week in a classroom of 20 students. In the latter he may receive lectures from a disinterested professor in a lecture hall of 200 students, three days a week, and see an even more disinterested graduate student TA two days a week.

A whizz at self teaching can do well at a big name four year college, a more normal individual can do just as well from potentially a little more attention those first two years (and save a lot of money).

I am a strong believer in community college. i got my restart at San Francisco City College after a huge failures at William and Mary as well as U of Florida. I was able to work full time, put my brother through school and pay for my mothers rent in San Francisco. that was nearly 30 years ago and not likely I could have done it today. I know that if my son went to Stanford for 4 years (or Boston U.) his most formative career life would be far different and most likely better than if he went to community college then transferred to even Berkeley for the final 2 years. Educational elitism does have a profound effect on a young persons worth regardless of Aptitude. Our children are taught to work in teams - the teams the start with are the teams that will help them out in the future.

I want my son to be happy and fully employed in a career he enjoys when he is 25. I love a good cappichino and appreciate those who make them with exceptional zeal. I just want him to be on a course that enables to install the POS systems rather ring up the mocha order

Phil Y
06-18-2015, 05:23 PM
Education is one of our biggest exports. Much more than just loose change for the local economy. High school and uni are big earners of foreign exchange. The Chinese might stop buying our coal (hope so) but still seem hungry for our education.

Ted Hoppe
06-18-2015, 05:40 PM
Education is one of our biggest exports. Much more than just loose change for the local economy. High school and uni are big earners of foreign exchange. The Chinese might stop buying our coal (hope so) but still seem hungry for our education.

A wise person once told me - knowledge is some thing that you give but still retain.


A lawyer said to me, if I let you take my clients intellectual property he just won't be able to make the same profit.


I heard Steve Jobs say in a meeting, "if you try to take what you learned here to them I will F@<€ing Kill You!" And he meant it.

Breakaway
06-18-2015, 05:48 PM
the teams the start with are the teams that will help them out in the future.

Not always. I was a working class kid on a scholarship to a school fat with rich kids. The intervening 30 years has made it abundantly clear that while my collar was blue, my blood was most certainly not. I have done allright, but I am nowhere close to being a captain of industry, despite the fabulous success belonging to all my former classmates.

Kevin

Ted Hoppe
06-18-2015, 05:53 PM
Not always. I was a working class kid on a scholarship to a school fat with rich kids. The intervening 30 years has made it abundantly clear that while my collar was blue, my blood was most certainly not. I have done allright, but I am nowhere close to being a captain of industry, despite the fabulous success belonging to all my former classmates.

Kevin

a kid with a scholarship is that. You didn't burn to be wealthy or promote yourself as a captain of industry in the rags to riches stories we all love to read. I would tend to believe those same kids you went to school with and who furthered their education in elite schools are worth 100 times what their old man was worth.

Dave Wright
06-18-2015, 07:30 PM
.... I know that if my son went to Stanford for 4 years (or Boston U.) his most formative career life would be far different and most likely better than if he went to community college then transferred to even Berkeley for the final 2 years. Educational elitism does have a profound effect on a young persons worth regardless of Aptitude. Our children are taught to work in teams - the teams the start with are the teams that will help them.....

Ted, I hope you are right, both for the sake of your expectations and your and your son's pocket books. I graduated from a university and went to grad school, both with higher rankings, both globally and nationally than Boston U. A little later I got a second BS from little college that is now defunct. So when I compare the quality "economy" educational experience with the quality "expensive" educational experience I don't do it lightly or without a lot of reflection. I retired at 55 and life is very good. I couldn't in good conscience recommend that a young person spend 200K on a bachelor's degree when there are substantially lower cost routes to that same degree.

Connections are fickle and the substantial ones, if the occur at all, usually take place in grad school. When your son is working on a team his sophomore year with a very wealthy foreign student, one who hasn't shown up in labs for 5 weeks, and he asks your son if he can copy his work - suppose your son gives him the work to copy - do you suppose that "connection" will eventually get your son a mega job in the oil industry?? Or, will your son's future employers have any knowledge whatsoever of an undergrad professor who gives him a recommendation. It's a big, variable world and "connections" are fickle.

Michael D. Storey
06-24-2015, 10:17 AM
Education is one of our biggest exports. Much more than just loose change for the local economy. High school and uni are big earners of foreign exchange. The Chinese might stop buying our coal (hope so) but still seem hungry for our education.
Education is part of the service economy that can be exported.
Regards coal, they seem to like M grade, which is used to make steel. I doubt that they will loose interest in West Virginia any time soon.

Norman Bernstein
06-24-2015, 10:30 AM
Here's the thing - modern education isn't about the learning in the age off googling and Siri. Sending the heir to his meager Hoppe fortune to a Univeristy that has connections in business, finance or technology could pay off better than 90k annuity would not last and a 2 year community college education.

It's a dilemma, for sure.

There are certainly a lot of success stories of kids who went off to a cheap community college, and with luck and persistence, managed to parlay that modest beginning into great personal success (and sometimes, financial success, as well). I certainly don't discount the value of community colleges....

On the other hand, only a fool would doubt the power of name and prestige from a well-known upscale university, a place where most graduates, as a consequence of the school's name on the diploma, as well as the connections made during their years there, made a whopping difference, as well

Some kid graduating Harvard with an MBA is overwhelmingly more likely to end up earning $200K/yr within a year or two out of school, and on track to rise in management ranks to stratospheric levels. Now, admittedly, not every Harvard MBA grad will succeed.... and you do run across kids who took the low cost school route and still managed to make it into a very high paying job with a secure future.... but you can't deny the difference in the odds. You may not like it... but it's a fact of life.

Personally, I'd be more concerned with the happiness factor, not the educational factor. All I'd really care about is whether my kid was happy, regardless of what school they went to... and part of happiness is whether the kid perceives that he's in the right place.... for him/her... at a given time.

I have two daughters. One is a graduate of a prestigious university, cum laude, and rapidly became a senior vice president of a worldwide public relations firm, travelling the world and earning huge bucks. The OTHER daughter graduated from a local university of no great note, married a school teacher, has two daughters of her own, and does freelance graphics design, as well as child/infant photography. The most important point:

BOTH are happy.

My suggestion: if your kid has ambitions to attend a well-regarded school, and you can afford it, then it's worth sacrifice to see that he/she gets there. If your kid's ambition is more modest, it's just as well. No one can predict the outcome.... but, whether it's for wealth and power, or just personal satisfaction, the latter is more important.

CWSmith
06-24-2015, 10:48 AM
Folks, I'm not complaining about the US being a destination for those wanting a good education. I believe in education and the development of a robust middle class as the two best weapons we have to end many of the world's problems.

What I am pointing out is that China's economy is roaring past us like a freight train. We are complaining about the cost of education while they are sending affluent students our way. We are letting our roads and bridges fall into decay because we don't want to pay taxes and they are building whole cities. We should be thinking about the investment we need to make to get our society moving again and admit to ourselves that everything costs money if you want to have it.

When we export education, we fuel another country's future. We need to make sure that we are fueling our own as well and I'm not sure we are doing it.

Norman Bernstein
06-24-2015, 10:52 AM
There's a bright side, though, to the influx of foreign (Chinese) students who come for the education: they go home saturated in Western values.... and I'd be willing to bet that this experience has been part of the liberalization of Chinese government controls. This certainly was true of the collapse of the Soviet Union: it was Gap Jeans and other western consumer goods, that did more to bring down the Soviet Union, than any arms race.

xflow7
06-24-2015, 03:31 PM
Sending the heir to his meager Hoppe fortune to a Univeristy that has connections in business, finance or technology could pay off better than 90k annuity would not last and a 2 year community college education.

You're probably right in general. But if he's interested in engineering, at least, you might be surprised where you'll find those connections. Many big companies with big engineering staffs do much of their entry-level recruiting on-campus from state/public school engineering programs located near where they have facilities.

Some examples from previous employers of mine:

Procter & Gamble recruits engineers heavily from (at least) University of Kentucky (feeding Cincinnati) and North Carolina State (feeding Greensboro location and, formerly, Greenville, NC). Lockheed Martin has recruited heavily from Penn State into their Owego, NY location.

They get loads of great engineers out of those places who go on to have extremely successful and lucrative engineering careers - just as successful in my experience as those who went to the big-name private schools.

If your son might be interested in engineering, I would ask around the placement office of the State engineering schools in California to find out what companies they have on-campus recruiting relationships with.

Dave

Norman Bernstein
06-24-2015, 03:44 PM
You're probably right in general. But if he's interested in engineering, at least, you might be surprised where you'll find those connections. Many big companies with big engineering staffs do much of their entry-level recruiting on-campus from state/public school engineering programs located near where they have facilities.

Years ago, when I worked for Analog Devices, I was often brought along to do interviewing on college campuses (they wanted at least one working engineer on these trips). We went to a variety of schools.... some prestigious names, some lower-echelon state universities, etc...

In my experience, I have to admit that there was a correlation between the reputation of the school, and the quality of the candidate. We interviewed many MIT undergraduates... and hired a lot of them, and they were, in general, excellent.

I also interviewed at lower-order schools. Perdue, for example, has an engineering program... but the candidates we interviewed seemed to be more interested in letting us know that they were majoring in Electrical Engineering, and minoring in Bible Studies. Florida State was worse; their students were woefully unprepared, in comparison to the students from better known schools.

I did learn one VERY important thing, though, in the course of the process. The students at MIT weren't very good simply because of the quality of the professors, the curriculum, or the intelligence of the students themselves......

...they were impressive because each and every one of them worked extensively on 'projects'..... actual design challenges, over and above the book-learning. The difference was in the practical experience. Northeastern graduates had the same advantages, because of working via the co-op program.

The BEST candidates? They weren't from places like MIT.... the best ones came out of Worcester Polytechnic Institute. If you have a kid interested in an engineering career, give WPI (commonly called 'Whoopie') a SERIOUS look. They run a program which is very highly enriched with independent study and collaborative project work.... and THAT, IMHO, is the difference.

xflow7
06-24-2015, 03:58 PM
Oh, I am sure you're right that the average or median engineer from a top-flight program is probably better prepared than the average or median from a mid-tier school.

My point was more that a motivated student with aptitude does not necessarily curtail his or her opportunities that much just by going to a non-name-brand school, depending on the relationships that school has cultivated in industry. I can tell you that the engineers I knew from UK, NC State, Perdue (another P&G feeder), and PSU (who were all top percentage of their classes, to be sure) were just as good as any of the engineers I came out of Cornell with.

Having said that, I agree entirely with your point about the importance of practicum, particularly for engineers. I spent two years on the Formula SAE team at Cornell, including as a team-lead my senior year. When I started at P&G as an equipment engineer I was *miles* ahead of most of my cohort in terms of anticipating engineering challenges and problem-solving. And the FSAE experience was critical to that.

Dave