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Norman Bernstein
06-12-2015, 08:33 AM
It appears that northern 'blue' states have stronger family values, than the bible-thumping southern states... and it's also related to education.


David Leonhardt (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/upshot/the-north-south-divide-on-two-parent-families.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share&_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1): “When it comes to family arrangements, the United States has a North-South divide. Children growing up across much of the northern part of the country are much more likely to grow up with two parents than children across the South.”“It’s not just a red-blue political divide, either. There is a kind of two-parent arc that starts in the West in Utah, runs up through the Dakotas and Minnesota and then down into New England and New Jersey. It encompasses both the conservative Mountain West and the liberal Northeast.”
http://wonkwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2015-06-11-at-6.37.01-AM-1024x753.png (http://wonkwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2015-06-11-at-6.37.01-AM-e1434019098341.png)
“Evidence suggests that children usually benefit (http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/reports/0001/01/01/family-structure-and-the-economic-mobility-of-children) from growing up with two parents. It’s probably not a coincidence, for instance, that the states with more two-parent families also have higher rates of upward mobility.”

“There are actually two models for having a large share of stable families: the blue-state model and the red-state one.”

“In the blue-state model, Americans get more education and earn higher income — and more educated, higher-earning people tend to marry and stay married … In the red-state model, educational attainment is closer to average, but ‘residents are more likely to have deep normative and religious commitments to marriage and to raising children within marriage.’”

“The lowest rates of two-parent families tend to be in states that don’t fit either model: red states with the lowest levels of education or blue states with only average levels of education.”

bamamick
06-12-2015, 02:32 PM
Of course, of course. We here in the south have virtually no redeeming characteristics, but since you didn't completely wipe us out when you had the chance (Sherman seems like the type who would have loved to A-bomb some place), you are stuck with us. :)

Mickey Lake

David G
06-12-2015, 02:44 PM
Mickey,

I don't think this was offered as an indictment of All Things Suthrun.

It is a simple expression of some facts and data. And what it seems to indicate is that some states do a better job creating a culture where children thrive in this way.

If I were a resident of one of the states that did not perform well... Nevada, N.M., the Bible Belt... I'd take it as feedback. Yes, it's a critique. But, I have to guess it's 'deserved' critique. So... are you willing to simply accept that YOUR state does worse than average on such matters... or will you make changes? Will you write/email your legislators? Write a letter to the editor? Go to your own representatives public meetings/open houses and speak up asking them to improve things? Less crony-capitalism. Less good-ol-boy backroom deals. Better education for all. Better economic development efforts. Better monitoring/enforcement of environmental issues. Cleaner/leaner government top to bottom thru the use of empowered auditors and ombudsmen.

I really do believe it's a matter of culture more than anything else. If you're not ready to help change the culture (a slow process at times, and all one can do is to continue to apply pressure, even in the face of no/limited response)... then you'd best get used to hearing the criticism.

Norman Bernstein
06-12-2015, 02:48 PM
Of course, of course. We here in the south have virtually no redeeming characteristics, but since you didn't completely wipe us out when you had the chance (Sherman seems like the type who would have loved to A-bomb some place), you are stuck with us. :)


Hey, don't shoot the messenger!

There are often, a number of inconvenient facts which challenge the ideological. For example, states with the highest penetration of abstinence-only education, happen to be states with the highest concentration of evangelists... and ALSO have the highest concentration of teen pregnancies. I think Louisiana is #1 in this category.

I know that would be VERY uncomfortable, for some, but wishing it wasn't, doesn't make it not true.

Norman Bernstein
06-12-2015, 02:57 PM
So what did you prove by posting that? you insult a lot of people, and that makes you what? Did that change your world??

I insulted someone? how so?

David G
06-12-2015, 02:59 PM
Tulsy,

I regard it as a WakeUpCall... clear enough for those that choose to heed it. Easily enough ignored by those that don't.

Overall... I think we, as a nation, have regressed over the last 40 years. It's past time to begin again to move forward. More fairness. Better educations. More job satisfaction. Decent incomes. Happier kids. Better work life/home life balance. Really hearing what the great spiritual teachers were saying (I don't care if you listen to Mohammed, Jesus, or... they all preached a similar message... since twisted by fallible humans). Less greed/more generosity. Less concentration of wealth & power.

Bobby of Tulsa
06-12-2015, 03:03 PM
Tulsy,

I regard it as a WakeUpCall... clear enough for those that choose to heed it. Easily enough ignored by those that don't.

Overall... I think we, as a nation, have regressed over the last 40 years. It's past time to begin again to move forward. More fairness. Better educations. More job satisfaction. Decent incomes. Happier kids. Better work life/home life balance. Really hearing what the great spiritual teachers were saying (I don't care if you listen to Mohammed, Jesus, or... they all preached a similar message... since twisted by fallible humans). Less greed/more generosity. Less concentration of wealth & power. Yes, and the wooden boat forum bilge is the place to change the world? Get out on the street and do some good. Other wise you are just spitting in the wind.

Dave Wright
06-12-2015, 03:05 PM
It appears that northern 'blue' states have stronger family values, than the bible-thumping southern states... and it's also related to education.

I'm concerned that the more trustworthy "Norman model" is fast approaching the decaying "DavidG model" for ardor overcoming rationality. Lets just read the cited article to see if it confirms the sentence quoted above:

"Mr. Wilcox and Mr. Zill argue that there are actually two models for having a large share of stable families: the blue-state model and the red-state one.
In the blue-state model, Americans get more education and earn higher income — and more educated, higher-earning people tend to marry and stay married. In Minnesota, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Connecticut, at least 51 percent of teenagers are being raised by both biological parents, among the highest rates in the nation. (That figure excludes families in which the two parents are together without being married; such arrangements are still rare — and less likely to last than marriages.)


In the red-state model, educational attainment is closer to average, but “residents are more likely to have deep normative and religious commitments to marriage and to raising children within marriage,” write Mr. Wilcox and Mr. Zill, in a paper (http://family-studies.org/red-state-families-better-than-we-knew/) for the Institute for Family Studies. This model applies across much of the Great Plains and Mountain West, including Nebraska and Utah."

Norman Bernstein
06-12-2015, 03:14 PM
I'm concerned that the more trustworthy "Norman model" is fast approaching the decaying "DavidG model" for ardor overcoming rationality.

Hold on a second here....

The only thing I said which perhaps might have been prejudicial was the phrase 'bible-thumping', to describe the southern states... although the phrase isn't original with me, and happens to be true (in the sense that the south has a far higher concentration of evangelistic Christians than the north).

Regardless, as the map shows, IF you judge 'family values' by the concentration of two parent families, then the north clearly is stronger in that regard.

It doesn't mean that this is the ONLY metric for 'family values'.... but it certainly is at least one of them. We could include metrics like the number of teenage pregnancies (but last I looked, that one would follow the same geographical pattern, reinforcing the case rather than contradicting it).

David G
06-12-2015, 03:21 PM
Yes, and the wooden boat forum bilge is the place to change the world? Get out on the street and do some good. Other wise you are just spitting in the wind.

I agree. And - while I'm not as involved as I was before the little dance with cancer - I still do write letters, send emails, show up at constituent meetings, and speak to friends who have influence. The more of that we all do... the better off things will be.

Dave Wright
06-12-2015, 03:26 PM
Please, simply read the words of the article:

"In the red-state model.......“residents are more likely to have deep normative and religious commitments to marriage and to raising children within marriage,” write Mr. Wilcox and Mr. Zill."

Now contrast that statement from the article with Norm's statement: "it appears that northern 'blue' states have stronger family values"

It seems to me that neither you DavidG or Norm can distinguish between normative and religious commitments versus economic advantage and the relationship of either to family values in this case. Just slow down and take a breath both of you, and give it some thought.

bamamick
06-12-2015, 06:31 PM
Doesn't insult me at all. I actually enjoy the continual bombardment of the region where I live by a certain group of the members here. Keeps me humble.

Being honest though, I don't get too upset by such numbers. Things are not as 'settled' here. In many ways it's the wild west down here, with boom towns popping up all over and public services at a loss to keep up with the population growth. It may be 100 years before Alabama catches up to places like Massachusetts when it comes to education standards for public schools, medical care for the needy, etc, but I don't think so. The huge influx of foreign investment in the south WILL accelerate things, I have to believe, whether anyone else does, or not.

Mickey Lake

Paul Pless
06-12-2015, 06:41 PM
Doesn't insult me at all. I actually enjoy the continual bombardment of the region where I live by a certain group of the members here. lol

delecta
06-12-2015, 06:53 PM
It seems then that everyone agrees, the best way to raise a family is with a mother and father that are married.

Shocking it took this long for the liberals here to come to terms. I'll look past Norms diss of the south, we all know that moms and dads no matter where they live are a better choice.

Dave Wright
06-12-2015, 07:11 PM
Doesn't insult me at all. I actually enjoy the continual bombardment of the region where I live by a certain group of the members here. Keeps me humble.



The interesting thing about this ""continual bombardment" is that the "bombarders" are so intent in making their particular points that they overwhelm their comprehension to understand by the sheer volume of the stuff they post. They don't take the time to fully read what they post, and they never seem to ask the questions: "what am I trying to achieve with this post?" "Does this post contribute to working together or does it contribute to animosity?"

Anyone reading the cited article with an open mind would conclude that the article is looking at the "stuff" that keeps marriages together. It stresses in a very general way that high income seems to keep marriages together in the north, and very clearly "family values" keep marriages with less financial resources together in the south.

If "...red-state...deep normative and religious commitments to marriage and to raising children within marriage,” as stressed in the article isn't the crux of family values I don't know what the hell is. This could be the very definition of " family values."

So, based on the article, Norm is simply wrong in his opening statement that:

"...It appears that northern 'blue' states have stronger family values, than the bible-thumping southern states... "

And he said it in a condescending way that demands a response. It may well be that family values are stronger in the south than the north, or the values may be the same, but that higher incomes of the north provide more "cement" to keep the marriage bonds together. Who knows? And who has time to read and debunk all of the slanted sh!t that's posted here scores of times per day???

Norman Bernstein
06-12-2015, 07:40 PM
Dave, your criticism is noted... and I'll admit that my choice of words wasn't sufficiently precise.

However, the author of the piece made a couple of separate points. The one you seem to be going back to, the business about 'deep normative and religious commitments' is countered to a large degree by the demographics of the chart, showing that the states with very high levels of religious commitment are certainly among the states with highest levels of single parent situations.

The piece ALSO made the argument about the influence of education... and once again, the chart DOES demonstrate that states with high levels of academic achievement (which, by the implication of the article, are NOT states necessarily defined by high levels of religiosity) demonstrate low levels of single parent families.

The words and the data can reasonably result in the inference that religious commitment isn't a primary factor in two parent families. Now, if two parent families represent 'family values', the chart and the words indicate a disconnect.....

...and that's really all I posted the article to illustrate.

Dave Wright
06-12-2015, 08:11 PM
Ah Norman, I'm just watching the nightly news and Lester Holt is showing a video shot from above of the take off of a Boeing 787 in ultra light condition, and he says "......almost vertical take off.." So if vertical is 90 degrees, and the plane is actually climbing at a 30 degree angle (or whatever the hell it is), is Holt three times wrong?? How do you measure how wrong statements might be? I simply focussed on the one and only sentence that you wrote in post #1, your opening post. I also noticed that you specifically titled the thread: "Speaking of family values..."

If you want, we can argue over the article, paragraph by paragraph. I don't want too. The author makes an number of points, and then notes contradictions to some of them. Maybe we should focus on the very last paragraph:

"It’s another sign that the North is faring better, on average, than the South today, whether the yardstick is income, education, life expectancy or family structure. And the various gaps then reinforce each other. Higher-earning families have an easier time remaining intact — but intact families are also more likely to produce children who are healthy, educated and ultimately higher earning."

When we understand that last paragraph we finally understand that it's all about economics and maybe not so much about family values or religion. When we emphasize that, we don't wind up insulting some otherwise decent people who may have laudable family values, but poor income streams.

Memphis Mike
06-12-2015, 08:24 PM
"It appears that northern 'blue' states have stronger family values, than the bible-thumping southern states... and it's also related to education."

Does this make yew feal supereior to us dum toothlis suthen swamp rats?

Norman Bernstein
06-12-2015, 08:42 PM
"It appears that northern 'blue' states have stronger family values, than the bible-thumping southern states... and it's also related to education."

Does this make yew feal supereior to us dum toothlis suthen swamp rats?

Not at all.

Does the C&P make you feel somehow inferior?

My point is really quite simple, and it's not about superiority or inferiority, it's about how 'family values' means different things to different people, and that those cultural attributes which we normally correlate to 'family values' may not, in fact, actually correspond to virtue.....

....it's really that simple.

I'm not easily offended... but I will admit that I truly detest when someone argues that his culture and 'family values' mean that they are morally superior to those who don't share those same attributes. Perhaps I'm most recently influenced by a book, 'Republican Gomorrah', by Max Blumenthal, which is nominally about the effect of evangelistic Christianity on the Republican party.... but which does, as an aside, detail the moral failings of those religious leaders who most loudly shout about family values... and many of whom are revealed to be the purest of hypocrites. These men and women have made a travesty of the phrase 'family values'. In short, I find especially poor correlation between the espousal of these values.... and the expression of them in practice.

Frankly, it makes the endless expressions of moral outrage about our 'secular society' into a hypocritical joke.


When we understand that last paragraph we finally understand that it's all about economics and maybe not so much about family values or religion.

Dave, THAT line makes it seem as if you're jumping to conclusions, yourself. The author, in the last line, referred specifically to red states with the 'lowest' level of education... but earlier, he ALSO characterized the locations where there is a lower percentage of two parent households as the ones having the most religious adherence.... and the graph demonstrates that these two characteristics coincide. You seem to be trying to argue that the educational characterization trumps the religious and cultural characterizations, and I don't think the article does that.

By the way, the author also states... without providing any evidence... that " Higher-earning families have an easier time remaining intact "... but provides no support for the statement. Surely, economic circumstances are not the ONLY reason for single parent families.... especially in states with very high levels of teen pregnancy. Economics might not even be the leading reason.

Dave Wright
06-12-2015, 09:09 PM
Jesus H. Effin Christmas Norm, take your family out for the weekend and see if you can break this habit.