electric motor power ratings (honesty in labeling)

[Tom Lathrop]

There is a class action suit against Campbell Hausfeld for labeling their compressor motors at "peak" power (whatever that is) instead of continuous power. :D Web site for the suit is:

http://www.aircompressorsettlement.com/

I recently bought a 7 hp? CH compressor and am always irritated at any MFG for using such fictitious ratings on motors. Shop vacuum cleaners are probably the worst offenders. Don't think I will join the suit and get my paltry 98 cents (or whatever) settlement.

I usually dislike such tort suits but hope this one is succesful enough to cause the rest of the liars to fess up and use either true RMS power ratings or just working current ratings on their products.

I suspect the "peak" rating is calculated from the maximum current drawn by the motor just before as it stalls and burns up or some other equally stupid method.
:mad:

Maybe not many other forumites feel strongly about this practice but it has been a pet peeve of mine.

[ 03-13-2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[Tom Lathrop]

There is a class action suit against Campbell Hausfeld for labeling their compressor motors at "peak" power (whatever that is) instead of continuous power. :D Web site for the suit is:

http://www.aircompressorsettlement.com/

I recently bought a 7 hp? CH compressor and am always irritated at any MFG for using such fictitious ratings on motors. Shop vacuum cleaners are probably the worst offenders. Don't think I will join the suit and get my paltry 98 cents (or whatever) settlement.

I usually dislike such tort suits but hope this one is succesful enough to cause the rest of the liars to fess up and use either true RMS power ratings or just working current ratings on their products.

I suspect the "peak" rating is calculated from the maximum current drawn by the motor just before as it stalls and burns up or some other equally stupid method.
:mad:

Maybe not many other forumites feel strongly about this practice but it has been a pet peeve of mine.

[ 03-13-2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[Tom Lathrop]

There is a class action suit against Campbell Hausfeld for labeling their compressor motors at "peak" power (whatever that is) instead of continuous power. :D Web site for the suit is:

http://www.aircompressorsettlement.com/

I recently bought a 7 hp? CH compressor and am always irritated at any MFG for using such fictitious ratings on motors. Shop vacuum cleaners are probably the worst offenders. Don't think I will join the suit and get my paltry 98 cents (or whatever) settlement.

I usually dislike such tort suits but hope this one is succesful enough to cause the rest of the liars to fess up and use either true RMS power ratings or just working current ratings on their products.

I suspect the "peak" rating is calculated from the maximum current drawn by the motor just before as it stalls and burns up or some other equally stupid method.
:mad:

Maybe not many other forumites feel strongly about this practice but it has been a pet peeve of mine.

[ 03-13-2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[carlg]

The horsepower ratings on most everything are largely exaggerated and usually refer to the maximum power drawn from the line with no regard for the motor's efficiency. My wife's little vacuum cleaner proudy boasts "1000 Watts" which would translate to 1-1/3 horsepower if it were 100 percent efficient. It mostly gets hot, makes a lot of noise and sucks very little. I'd guess the useful work would be equivalent to a quarter horsepower or less.

Those of us who went to electrical engineering school long ago worked with AC and DC machines and dynamometers and can spot the lies a mile away. But I don't feel that old, honest.

[carlg]

The horsepower ratings on most everything are largely exaggerated and usually refer to the maximum power drawn from the line with no regard for the motor's efficiency. My wife's little vacuum cleaner proudy boasts "1000 Watts" which would translate to 1-1/3 horsepower if it were 100 percent efficient. It mostly gets hot, makes a lot of noise and sucks very little. I'd guess the useful work would be equivalent to a quarter horsepower or less.

Those of us who went to electrical engineering school long ago worked with AC and DC machines and dynamometers and can spot the lies a mile away. But I don't feel that old, honest.

[carlg]

The horsepower ratings on most everything are largely exaggerated and usually refer to the maximum power drawn from the line with no regard for the motor's efficiency. My wife's little vacuum cleaner proudy boasts "1000 Watts" which would translate to 1-1/3 horsepower if it were 100 percent efficient. It mostly gets hot, makes a lot of noise and sucks very little. I'd guess the useful work would be equivalent to a quarter horsepower or less.

Those of us who went to electrical engineering school long ago worked with AC and DC machines and dynamometers and can spot the lies a mile away. But I don't feel that old, honest.

[Frank Wentzel]

It's about time someone stepped in. I hope the message also gets to the Chinese manufacturers as well.

/// Frank ///

[Frank Wentzel]

It's about time someone stepped in. I hope the message also gets to the Chinese manufacturers as well.

/// Frank ///

[Frank Wentzel]

It's about time someone stepped in. I hope the message also gets to the Chinese manufacturers as well.

/// Frank ///

[Bruce Hooke]

The suit is actually covers:


All Persons in the United States who purchased, between August 1, 1996 and January 30, 2004, an electric air compressor manufactured, imported, licensed or distributed by Campbell Hausfeld, DeVilbiss Air Power Co., Ingersoll-Rand Co., or Coleman Powermate, Inc., and which identified on its label a horsepower that is not continuous running horsepower.
You can get up to $50 worth of air compressor accessories (assume the agreement is approved by the court), so if you qualify it is worth something. Of course to get $50 worth you probably need to have purchased one of the big upright units.

I got something in the mail about this and registered earlier today. I can't say that I've found my compressor to be underpowered (heck, I bought it based on the CFM and PSI not the HP) but I figure that by taking part I can help send a message to manufacturers who engage in these sorts of practices, and I can maybe get a free air hose or a small air tool.

[Bruce Hooke]

The suit is actually covers:


All Persons in the United States who purchased, between August 1, 1996 and January 30, 2004, an electric air compressor manufactured, imported, licensed or distributed by Campbell Hausfeld, DeVilbiss Air Power Co., Ingersoll-Rand Co., or Coleman Powermate, Inc., and which identified on its label a horsepower that is not continuous running horsepower.
You can get up to $50 worth of air compressor accessories (assume the agreement is approved by the court), so if you qualify it is worth something. Of course to get $50 worth you probably need to have purchased one of the big upright units.

I got something in the mail about this and registered earlier today. I can't say that I've found my compressor to be underpowered (heck, I bought it based on the CFM and PSI not the HP) but I figure that by taking part I can help send a message to manufacturers who engage in these sorts of practices, and I can maybe get a free air hose or a small air tool.

[Bruce Hooke]

The suit is actually covers:


All Persons in the United States who purchased, between August 1, 1996 and January 30, 2004, an electric air compressor manufactured, imported, licensed or distributed by Campbell Hausfeld, DeVilbiss Air Power Co., Ingersoll-Rand Co., or Coleman Powermate, Inc., and which identified on its label a horsepower that is not continuous running horsepower.
You can get up to $50 worth of air compressor accessories (assume the agreement is approved by the court), so if you qualify it is worth something. Of course to get $50 worth you probably need to have purchased one of the big upright units.

I got something in the mail about this and registered earlier today. I can't say that I've found my compressor to be underpowered (heck, I bought it based on the CFM and PSI not the HP) but I figure that by taking part I can help send a message to manufacturers who engage in these sorts of practices, and I can maybe get a free air hose or a small air tool.

[Tom Lathrop]

Heck, maybe I will register. I lost my old compressor in hurricane Isabel and used that as an excuse to buy a big upright model that will run useful tools like sanders. Bought it in October, so I qualify.

[Tom Lathrop]

Heck, maybe I will register. I lost my old compressor in hurricane Isabel and used that as an excuse to buy a big upright model that will run useful tools like sanders. Bought it in October, so I qualify.

[Tom Lathrop]

Heck, maybe I will register. I lost my old compressor in hurricane Isabel and used that as an excuse to buy a big upright model that will run useful tools like sanders. Bought it in October, so I qualify.

[leon bee]

I read once that with vacuum cleaners they derive the HP rating at the moment motor destroys itself running with no load.

[leon bee]

I read once that with vacuum cleaners they derive the HP rating at the moment motor destroys itself running with no load.

[leon bee]

I read once that with vacuum cleaners they derive the HP rating at the moment motor destroys itself running with no load.

[Tom Lathrop]

Not likely Leon. The highest current would be with the armature stalled (max load). With zero back emf (voltage) being generated, the motor would just burn up. Got a motor you don't like, give it a try.

[Tom Lathrop]

Not likely Leon. The highest current would be with the armature stalled (max load). With zero back emf (voltage) being generated, the motor would just burn up. Got a motor you don't like, give it a try.

[Tom Lathrop]

Not likely Leon. The highest current would be with the armature stalled (max load). With zero back emf (voltage) being generated, the motor would just burn up. Got a motor you don't like, give it a try.

[Tom M.]

746 watts = 1 horsepower, there's no way around it. Any UL listed device must list the wattage or amperage. Look on the motor. A 15 amp, 120 volt motor draws 1800 watts, which is about 2.4 HP. That's all it can draw on a continuous basis. Its true output depends on its efficiency, which I understand to be about 80% for a single phase induction motor. Correct me if I'm wrong smile.gif

[Tom M.]

746 watts = 1 horsepower, there's no way around it. Any UL listed device must list the wattage or amperage. Look on the motor. A 15 amp, 120 volt motor draws 1800 watts, which is about 2.4 HP. That's all it can draw on a continuous basis. Its true output depends on its efficiency, which I understand to be about 80% for a single phase induction motor. Correct me if I'm wrong smile.gif

[Tom M.]

746 watts = 1 horsepower, there's no way around it. Any UL listed device must list the wattage or amperage. Look on the motor. A 15 amp, 120 volt motor draws 1800 watts, which is about 2.4 HP. That's all it can draw on a continuous basis. Its true output depends on its efficiency, which I understand to be about 80% for a single phase induction motor. Correct me if I'm wrong smile.gif

[ion barnes]

It goes the same way with bilge pumps. Ratings given at zero lift and zero head. Nothing relevant to its working conditions.
As for the compressor motor, it could be chugging along without being connected to a compressor or connected but the unloader is open. I agree that, at least with compressors, you need to look at the CFM and psi ratings.

[ion barnes]

It goes the same way with bilge pumps. Ratings given at zero lift and zero head. Nothing relevant to its working conditions.
As for the compressor motor, it could be chugging along without being connected to a compressor or connected but the unloader is open. I agree that, at least with compressors, you need to look at the CFM and psi ratings.

[ion barnes]

It goes the same way with bilge pumps. Ratings given at zero lift and zero head. Nothing relevant to its working conditions.
As for the compressor motor, it could be chugging along without being connected to a compressor or connected but the unloader is open. I agree that, at least with compressors, you need to look at the CFM and psi ratings.

[ion barnes]

I remember an electrician telling me that electric HP is different compared to internal combustion engine HP, and the same again if you want turbine HP.

[ion barnes]

I remember an electrician telling me that electric HP is different compared to internal combustion engine HP, and the same again if you want turbine HP.

[ion barnes]

I remember an electrician telling me that electric HP is different compared to internal combustion engine HP, and the same again if you want turbine HP.

[George Roberts]

Tom M. ---

A 15amp/120 motor can draw more than 1800 watts. The secret is that they are measured under different conditions. Startup for example is higher than running under normal load.

others ---

Peak horsepower is important in a compressor. It is the horsepower that is attained just as the compressor cycles off. I don't know what good average horsepower is - it will be different if the tank pressure is 0 pounds or full rated pounds.

Just a way for lawyers to make money and for us to pay higher prices.

[George Roberts]

Tom M. ---

A 15amp/120 motor can draw more than 1800 watts. The secret is that they are measured under different conditions. Startup for example is higher than running under normal load.

others ---

Peak horsepower is important in a compressor. It is the horsepower that is attained just as the compressor cycles off. I don't know what good average horsepower is - it will be different if the tank pressure is 0 pounds or full rated pounds.

Just a way for lawyers to make money and for us to pay higher prices.

[George Roberts]

Tom M. ---

A 15amp/120 motor can draw more than 1800 watts. The secret is that they are measured under different conditions. Startup for example is higher than running under normal load.

others ---

Peak horsepower is important in a compressor. It is the horsepower that is attained just as the compressor cycles off. I don't know what good average horsepower is - it will be different if the tank pressure is 0 pounds or full rated pounds.

Just a way for lawyers to make money and for us to pay higher prices.

[Tom M.]

George,

I said: "A 15 amp, 120 volt motor draws 1800 watts, which is about 2.4 HP. That's all it can draw on a continuous basis."

I think we are saying the same thing here.

Tom

[Tom M.]

George,

I said: "A 15 amp, 120 volt motor draws 1800 watts, which is about 2.4 HP. That's all it can draw on a continuous basis."

I think we are saying the same thing here.

Tom

[Tom M.]

George,

I said: "A 15 amp, 120 volt motor draws 1800 watts, which is about 2.4 HP. That's all it can draw on a continuous basis."

I think we are saying the same thing here.

Tom

[Tom Lathrop]

Tom and George,

I'm afraid that there's more to it than we have considered so far. It's likely more technical than needed on the forum, but in a reactive (inductive) load load like an induction motor, you can't simply multiply the current times the voltage and efficiency and get a correct power output. Only in a resistive load like a heater will this give a close answer. The inductive load causes the phase angle of the current to lag the voltage phase angle. This is called the "power factor" and is usually significant in the normal induction motor.

That is enough technical jargon, but suffice to say that the actual power input to an induction motor is significantly less than current times voltage. Power companies hate this and often install correction capacitors on their lines to bring the current and voltage back in phase. They do have to pay for the extra power loss due to the resistance in their lines and like to have current and voltage in phase at the customer.

By the way, almost nobody rates equipment by power output. It is almost always given as power input, neglecting efficiency.

Sorry for the length of this post but I lack the time to make it shorter.

[Tom Lathrop]

Tom and George,

I'm afraid that there's more to it than we have considered so far. It's likely more technical than needed on the forum, but in a reactive (inductive) load load like an induction motor, you can't simply multiply the current times the voltage and efficiency and get a correct power output. Only in a resistive load like a heater will this give a close answer. The inductive load causes the phase angle of the current to lag the voltage phase angle. This is called the "power factor" and is usually significant in the normal induction motor.

That is enough technical jargon, but suffice to say that the actual power input to an induction motor is significantly less than current times voltage. Power companies hate this and often install correction capacitors on their lines to bring the current and voltage back in phase. They do have to pay for the extra power loss due to the resistance in their lines and like to have current and voltage in phase at the customer.

By the way, almost nobody rates equipment by power output. It is almost always given as power input, neglecting efficiency.

Sorry for the length of this post but I lack the time to make it shorter.

[Tom Lathrop]

Tom and George,

I'm afraid that there's more to it than we have considered so far. It's likely more technical than needed on the forum, but in a reactive (inductive) load load like an induction motor, you can't simply multiply the current times the voltage and efficiency and get a correct power output. Only in a resistive load like a heater will this give a close answer. The inductive load causes the phase angle of the current to lag the voltage phase angle. This is called the "power factor" and is usually significant in the normal induction motor.

That is enough technical jargon, but suffice to say that the actual power input to an induction motor is significantly less than current times voltage. Power companies hate this and often install correction capacitors on their lines to bring the current and voltage back in phase. They do have to pay for the extra power loss due to the resistance in their lines and like to have current and voltage in phase at the customer.

By the way, almost nobody rates equipment by power output. It is almost always given as power input, neglecting efficiency.

Sorry for the length of this post but I lack the time to make it shorter.

[Bryan Mehus]

This has long been a pet peeve of mine, and I'm pleased to see the class action being taken.

I think you will notice that on most compressors the horsepower rating is mysteriously missing on the nameplate of the motor, but emblazened in large numbers on the tank. I've always wanted to take one of those 5hp compressor motors that plug into a 120volt 15amp circuit, attach a 5hp gen set:120volt 40amp then after the motor runs the genny for a few seconds pull the plug from the wall and quickly replug into the gen set thereby powering the motor with 15 amps and have a conservative extra 15 amps of free power. :D

Bryan

[Bryan Mehus]

This has long been a pet peeve of mine, and I'm pleased to see the class action being taken.

I think you will notice that on most compressors the horsepower rating is mysteriously missing on the nameplate of the motor, but emblazened in large numbers on the tank. I've always wanted to take one of those 5hp compressor motors that plug into a 120volt 15amp circuit, attach a 5hp gen set:120volt 40amp then after the motor runs the genny for a few seconds pull the plug from the wall and quickly replug into the gen set thereby powering the motor with 15 amps and have a conservative extra 15 amps of free power. :D

Bryan

[Bryan Mehus]

This has long been a pet peeve of mine, and I'm pleased to see the class action being taken.

I think you will notice that on most compressors the horsepower rating is mysteriously missing on the nameplate of the motor, but emblazened in large numbers on the tank. I've always wanted to take one of those 5hp compressor motors that plug into a 120volt 15amp circuit, attach a 5hp gen set:120volt 40amp then after the motor runs the genny for a few seconds pull the plug from the wall and quickly replug into the gen set thereby powering the motor with 15 amps and have a conservative extra 15 amps of free power. :D

Bryan

[Tom M.]

I have a Rol-Air whose motor plate says it draws over 18 amps @ 120volts. Rol-Air says its a 2HP compressor. Would that be an example of taking power factor into consideration Tom?

Tom

[Tom M.]

I have a Rol-Air whose motor plate says it draws over 18 amps @ 120volts. Rol-Air says its a 2HP compressor. Would that be an example of taking power factor into consideration Tom?

Tom

[Tom M.]

I have a Rol-Air whose motor plate says it draws over 18 amps @ 120volts. Rol-Air says its a 2HP compressor. Would that be an example of taking power factor into consideration Tom?

Tom

[Tom Lathrop]

Tom M, that is an unusually honest rating and most likely takes both power factor and efficiency into account. Rated power of 69% of ac voltage times current is probably about right for a good motor set up and better than poor ones.

[Tom Lathrop]

Tom M, that is an unusually honest rating and most likely takes both power factor and efficiency into account. Rated power of 69% of ac voltage times current is probably about right for a good motor set up and better than poor ones.

[Tom Lathrop]

Tom M, that is an unusually honest rating and most likely takes both power factor and efficiency into account. Rated power of 69% of ac voltage times current is probably about right for a good motor set up and better than poor ones.

[formerlyknownasprince]

Anyone old enough to remember when Honda introduced us to PS (aka Pony Sized) horsepower when they introduced the 750 Four in the late 60's? They sure weren't real horses.

Any chance of getting another class action together on silicon boobs? I got my grubby hands on a pair that looked great but just didn't do it when it came to feel. I feel cheated - gotta be worth a buck or two?

:D

Ian

[formerlyknownasprince]

Anyone old enough to remember when Honda introduced us to PS (aka Pony Sized) horsepower when they introduced the 750 Four in the late 60's? They sure weren't real horses.

Any chance of getting another class action together on silicon boobs? I got my grubby hands on a pair that looked great but just didn't do it when it came to feel. I feel cheated - gotta be worth a buck or two?

:D

Ian

[formerlyknownasprince]

Anyone old enough to remember when Honda introduced us to PS (aka Pony Sized) horsepower when they introduced the 750 Four in the late 60's? They sure weren't real horses.

Any chance of getting another class action together on silicon boobs? I got my grubby hands on a pair that looked great but just didn't do it when it came to feel. I feel cheated - gotta be worth a buck or two?

:D

Ian