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Paul Pless
06-04-2015, 10:33 AM
This'll be fun, a non boat porn thread open for discussion. :D

The award this year is going to Caitlyn Jenner.

Surely she's a better candidate for the award than Iraq War veteran turned extreme athlete Noah Galloway, right?

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGcUsZ0VAAACnWb.jpg

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 10:36 AM
I met Ashe and Howard Cosell. A very quiet, unassuming, nice gentle man. Howard, on the other hand....

John of Phoenix
06-04-2015, 10:37 AM
Noah Matthew Galloway (born October 28, 1981)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Galloway#cite_note-1) is a former United States Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army) soldier, and a model and athlete. He was injured during the Iraq War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War), losing his left arm above the elbow and left leg above the knee. He was a contestant on Dancing with the Stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_with_the_Stars_(U.S._TV_series)) season 20 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_with_the_Stars_(U.S._season_20)), paired with Sharna Burgess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharna_Burgess). The pair finished in third place.
Third place on Dancing With the Stars is some pretty heavy **** these days.

Lew Barrett
06-04-2015, 11:28 AM
This'll be fun, a non boat porn thread open for discussion. :D

The award this year is going to Caitlyn Jenner.



Surely she's a better candidate for the award than Iraq War veteran turned extreme athlete Noah Galloway, right?

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGcUsZ0VAAACnWb.jpg

Good point. But did you consider the courage it takes to step up and hire the "cost be damned" best publicists in the world? I thought not!

seanz
06-04-2015, 05:44 PM
Good point. But did you consider the courage it takes to step up and hire the "cost be damned" best publicists in the world? I thought not!


Yeah, well, yeah, "follow your star" an all that but what we have is a wealthy 65 year old American man with a shopping list that will make her look like a wealthy 35 year old American woman. Noah Galloway is a lot more impressive than that.

Captain Intrepid
06-04-2015, 05:51 PM
The problem with the circulating memes is not that they raise up Galloway—the man is probably 10 times more courageous than myself—but that they tear down Jenner.

Normally, it’s fine if someone disagrees with the choice of the recipient of an award, even one as stupid as an ESPY—people do that in MVP races and DPOY literally every year. But this is not an award that can be measured by statistics like points per game, PER, or wins. This is an award ESPN doles out based on what they decide, not what is voted on, so anything you think is automatically arbitrary. If you don’t like who wins it, don’t watch the ESPY’s—simple as that.
The award does not dictate who is the most courageous person in the world, nor does it diminish what Galloway or Lauren Hill—who people also said should have been the recipient instead of Jenner—have accomplished. It’s simply something for ESPN to present to someone at their annual masturbatory awards show.
The problem with the false rumor is that people used the memes to put down Jenner, her transition and her identity. They stated that what she did lacked courage, with most of their hatred and distaste stemming from the fact that they did not understand what her process was like[.]

http://deadspin.com/no-a-disabled-vet-was-not-second-place-for-arthur-ashe-1708867546

Paul Pless
06-04-2015, 05:55 PM
you just can't sneak anything by the woodenboat forum
now i know what it feels like to be genglandoh or ronrod
**** that hurts :D

seanz
06-04-2015, 06:02 PM
Try one of your other logins...

Paul Pless
06-04-2015, 06:08 PM
tehe

Captain Intrepid
06-04-2015, 06:09 PM
you just can't sneak anything by the woodenboat forum
now i know what it feels like to be genglandoh or ronrod
**** that hurts :D

Anything that can be torn apart by a 5 second google deserves to be. :D

RonW
06-04-2015, 06:44 PM
you just can't sneak anything by the woodenboat forum
now i know what it feels like to be genglandoh or ronrod
**** that hurts :D


Try one of your other logins...


tehe


It is bad enough being snarky with conservatives, but it isn't nice trying to fool the great Scott.........

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 06:44 PM
Sadly, you do all the time!

purri
06-04-2015, 08:38 PM
Slightly OT but I passed by his offices (Ashe is a wine negociant) in France; Strasbourg I think, remembered what he had said about the gaming of the pro tennis circuit and why he relinquished US citizenship. A fine fella!

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 08:41 PM
I didn't know that!

seanz
06-04-2015, 08:43 PM
It is bad enough being snarky with conservatives, but it isn't nice trying to fool the great Scott.........

Just remember, Ron, it's only funny if you have a sense of humor.

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 08:45 PM
AW HECK, I've had a sense of humor all day but, I can be pretty caustic too!

CWSmith
06-04-2015, 09:17 PM
I don't see where raising this question takes anything away from Jenner. The questions raised reflect on those who made the selection.

I wish Jenner well, but Galloway is a true victim who fought back to regain his life.

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 09:24 PM
I don't see where raising this question takes anything away from Jenner. The questions raised reflect on those who made the selection.

I wish Jenner well, but Galloway is a true victim who fought back to regain his life.I have nothing against either one! Just one comment. It's importance ummm, maybe! Ashe spent a life time fighting against racism on the court and on the field. If those nominated did too, great, they deserve that. A lot of vets. lost limbs and did not qualify. What made him different?PS, I know nothing about the woman!

BrianW
06-04-2015, 09:31 PM
https://scontent-atl1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/s720x720/11334048_456795144484494_528725061836817231_o.jpg

CWSmith
06-04-2015, 09:35 PM
Who's calling him a coward?

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 09:36 PM
Brian, I don't deny that! One way of looking at this, and not the only one, it was his JOB!

seanz
06-04-2015, 09:39 PM
Who's calling him a coward?

Well, Brian posted it, the only logical conclusion is....

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 09:46 PM
Here's my take: Of course, I'll be ridiculed for saying this regardless...

Ashe did two things

He broke the color barrier in a sport that was unheard of in a sport that JUST didn't have blacks in it.

Secondly, he fought about the Aids virus at a time it was considered a gay man's disease,

And he didn't do either over a brief episode in his life. Both took a lot of guts! Anyone who gets the award should exemplify those.

CWSmith
06-04-2015, 09:50 PM
Well, Brian posted it, the only logical conclusion is....

Some people are incapable of parsing the thoughts of others and grasping any level of nuance. Still others don't try. They simply project ugly thoughts onto others because that is all they can do.

seanz
06-04-2015, 09:53 PM
I may have been using 'logical' in it's most Tea Party form....

BrianW
06-04-2015, 09:54 PM
Well, Brian posted it, the only logical conclusion is....

You stop that Sean. You're leading Mr Smith down the wrong path.

:D

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 09:55 PM
It's a road well travelled.:)

BrianW
06-04-2015, 09:55 PM
Some people are incapable of parsing the thoughts of others and grasping any level of nuance. Still others don't try. They simply project ugly thoughts onto others because that is all they can do.

There's little nuance in that poster.

The good news is that if the shoe don't fit, you don't have to wear it.

;)

seanz
06-04-2015, 09:59 PM
:).

LeeG
06-04-2015, 10:12 PM
Keerist, "famous transgender celebrity Caitlyn Jenner uses Crest toothpaste !", "famous Crossfit athlete, model and Iraq war amputee recomends SuperVita supplements!" Unknown radio personality farts a few thoughts and another great reckoning for what's important bounces through the infotainment world.

CWSmith
06-04-2015, 10:19 PM
There's little nuance in that poster.

Never suggested there was. The nuance was in the postings of others.

BrianW
06-04-2015, 10:23 PM
Never suggested there was. The nuance was in the postings of others.

No problems mate.

For the record...


On January 18, two days after the release of Clint Eastwood's American Sniper, Michael Moore tweeted (https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/556914094406926336): "My uncle killed by sniper in WW2. We were taught snipers were cowards. Will shoot u in the back. Snipers aren't heroes. And invaders r worse," followed by (https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/556988226486169600): "But if you're on the roof of your home defending it from invaders who've come 7K miles, you are not a sniper, u are brave, u are a neighbor."

http://www.vice.com/read/exclusive-interview-michael-moore-on-american-sniper-sarah-palin-and-ptsd-261

seanz
06-04-2015, 10:28 PM
So, you're saying it's all a mater of opinion then?






:)

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 10:44 PM
Well, Obama got a Nobel prize for peace. That's an example of an opinion by a few!

CWSmith
06-04-2015, 10:50 PM
Personally, I find snipers rather distasteful; but that is the nature of war. Patton expressed the goals of war very well. Honorable men and women go to war and commit acts of great courage and sacrifice, but there is no honor in war itself. It is all killing. Strategy may minimize death. Snipers may reduce the death on their side and that justifies their use. Moore is wrong to single out snipers. It is all evil.

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2015, 10:51 PM
Ca-ching!

PeterSibley
06-04-2015, 11:01 PM
No problems mate.

For the record...

On January 18, two days after the release of Clint Eastwood's American Sniper, Michael Moore tweeted (https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/556914094406926336): "My uncle killed by sniper in WW2. We were taught snipers were cowards. Will shoot u in the back. Snipers aren't heroes. And invaders r worse," followed by (https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/556988226486169600): "But if you're on the roof of your home defending it from invaders who've come 7K miles, you are not a sniper, u are brave, u are a neighbor."


http://www.vice.com/read/exclusive-i...n-and-ptsd-261 (http://www.vice.com/read/exclusive-interview-michael-moore-on-american-sniper-sarah-palin-and-ptsd-261)

http://www.vice.com/read/exclusive-interview-michael-moore-on-american-sniper-sarah-palin-and-ptsd-261

I guess Moore had good reason for his opinion, those who have had their lives saved by their own side's sniper will disagree. So be it.

Duncan Gibbs
06-05-2015, 08:28 AM
Two of my nominees:

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kplu/files/201410/AP307231008227.jpg

That's some courageous sh!t right there!

I've also known transgender women who went through the transition from being a man without the coddling and protection $100 million can buy you. I've walked down streets and seen the hate and vitriol they experience on a daily basis first hand. Whilst Jenner's urges to change are undoubtedly real, the notion she's been "courageous" is fraud, spin and marketing of the worst kind.

George Jung
06-05-2015, 08:55 AM
What's courageous about Jenner? She wouldn't have been my nominee, at first glance - but consideration of the blowback from publicizing this, she's actually a good choice.

Why put yourself in the public eye? Maybe she's a publicity hound; maybe she sees the opportunity to raise this discussion, so that others find their transitions easier; maybe it'll lessen some folks hatred of others who are different.

She's wealthy; I doubt riches played into that decision.

S.V. Airlie
06-05-2015, 08:59 AM
UUUMMM, "Keeping up with the Kardashians" has a new lease on life!

Paul Pless
06-05-2015, 09:07 AM
The Ashe Award is one of the most prestigious in sports. Recipients reflect the spirit of Arthur Ashe, possessing strength in the face of adversity, courage in the face of peril and the willingness to stand up for their beliefs no matter what the cost. The award is inspired by the life that Ashe lived, using his fame and stature to advocate for human rights, although, at the time, those positions may have been unpopular and were often controversial. From speaking out against apartheid in South Africa to revealing to the world his struggle with AIDS, Ashe never backed away from a difficult issue, even though doing so would have been easier. Winners of the Ashe Award strive to carry on Ashe's legacy in their own lives - - inspired by those who do so each day.



1993 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_in_sports)

Jim Valvano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Valvano) (Award Video and Speech) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=Al1ziBuY_rA)


1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_in_sports)
Steve Palermo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Palermo)


1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_in_sports)
Howard Cosell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Cosell)


1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_in_sports)
Loretta Claiborne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loretta_Claiborne)


1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_in_sports)
Muhammad Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali)


1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_in_sports)
Dean Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Smith)


1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_in_sports)
Billie Jean King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Jean_King)


2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_in_sports)
Dave Sanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_David_Sanders) (posthumously (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre))


2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_in_sports)
Cathy Freeman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Freeman)


2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_in_sports)
Todd Beamer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Beamer), Mark Bingham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bingham), Tom Burnett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Burnett), and Jeremy Glick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Glick) (posthumously (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93))[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ashe_Courage_Award#cite_note-1)


2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_in_sports)
Pat Tillman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman) and Kevin Tillman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Tillman)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ashe_Courage_Award#cite_note-2)


2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_in_sports)
George Weah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Weah)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ashe_Courage_Award#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ashe_Courage_Award#cite_note-4)


2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_in_sports)
Emmanuel Ofosu Yeboah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Ofosu_Yeboah) and Jim MacLaren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_MacLaren)


2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_in_sports)
Roia Ahmad and Shamila Kohestani


2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_in_sports)
Trevor Ringland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Ringland) and David Cullen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cullen_%28basketball%29) from Peace Players International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_Players_International)


2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_in_sports)
Tommie Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommie_Smith) and John Carlos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carlos)


2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_in_sports)
Nelson Mandela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela)


2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_in_sports)
Family of Ed Thomas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Thomas)


2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_in_sports)
Dewey Bozella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewey_Bozella)


2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_sports)
Pat Summitt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Summitt) (Award Video and Speech (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:8158576))


2013 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_in_sports)
Robin Roberts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Roberts_%28newscaster%29)


2014 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_in_sports)
Michael Sam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Sam)


2015 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_in_sports)
Caitlyn Jenner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlyn_Jenner)

S.V. Airlie
06-05-2015, 09:09 AM
Cosell wouldn't be anything without his wife's money!

S.V. Airlie
06-05-2015, 09:15 AM
Ashe did not do anything for financial gains period!

The Bigfella
06-05-2015, 09:45 AM
Slightly OT but I passed by his offices (Ashe is a wine negociant) in France; Strasbourg I think, remembered what he had said about the gaming of the pro tennis circuit and why he relinquished US citizenship. A fine fella!

Perhaps you could tell us more about this relinquishment of his US citizenship?

John of Phoenix
06-05-2015, 10:43 AM
What's courageous about Jenner? She wouldn't have been my nominee, at first glance - but consideration of the blowback from publicizing this, she's actually a good choice.

Why put yourself in the public eye? Maybe she's a publicity hound; maybe she sees the opportunity to raise this discussion, so that others find their transitions easier; maybe it'll lessen some folks hatred of others who are different.

She's wealthy; I doubt riches played into that decision.I've mentioned before that I flew Cobras in Vietnam with a fellow named Paul who is now Paula (and still flying.) I found her on FB and sent this message -

"I saw the Jenner interview the other night and decided it was time to contact you and let you know how much I admire your courage. I thought we all did an admirable job of facing death every day but never imagined what you had to endure just facing life. You have my unwavering respect. John"

CWSmith
06-05-2015, 12:21 PM
The Ashe Award is one of the most prestigious in sports.

If it is limited to sports, then why give it to Nelson Mandela and why debate Jenner vs Galloway?

Paul Pless
06-05-2015, 12:26 PM
If it is limited to sports, then why give it to Nelson Mandela . . .1995 Rugby World Cup

bobbys
06-05-2015, 12:44 PM
All a ploy to get bobby Riggs a chance to bring back the gold for our team.

CWSmith
06-05-2015, 02:51 PM
1995 Rugby World Cup

Yes, but he didn't play. You mean his act of "courage" was fielding a multi-racial team? I suppose. I'm impressed, but it seems out of place somehow. Why not give it to the team? They actually faced the risk of harm?

Duncan Gibbs
06-06-2015, 06:51 PM
What's courageous about Jenner? She wouldn't have been my nominee, at first glance - but consideration of the blowback from publicizing this, she's actually a good choice.

Why put yourself in the public eye? Maybe she's a publicity hound; maybe she sees the opportunity to raise this discussion, so that others find their transitions easier; maybe it'll lessen some folks hatred of others who are different.

She's wealthy; I doubt riches played into that decision.
Sorry, but I'm calling it BS. I've no doubt the root cause is a very real need/desire to 'be' a woman, but all the flummery and hype surrounding the deal - and it IS a deal - has precisely nothing to do with "raise the discussion" when there have been so many other transgender people before her. I doubt the vast majority of people consider it an issue at all when gender reassignment brings with it an established change in legal status from 'man' to 'woman' or the other way, and the fact the procedure is so rare on a per capita basis that, as an issue, it's more a curiosity than any kind of moral outrage. Jenner's reassignment procedure publicity is ALL about celebrity rather than any discussion raising.

Here's a good piece (http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/private-sydney/does-bruce-jenners-transformation-deserve-the-admiration-it-is-receiving-20150606-ghfg7u) that pulls the whole shindig apart quite well:


Does Bruce Jenner's transformation deserve the admiration it is receiving?

Not only did Bruce Jenner become a woman this week, the 65-year-old thrice-married father and step-father of many famous offspring also managed to become a fully-fledged sacred cow.

Within minutes of "breaking the internet" Caitlyn Jenner was apparently venerated by the masses, applauded by the President of the United States while a conga line of her celebrity pals offered their most meaningful sentiments in 140-characters or less on Twitter.

Before we knew it, Caitlyn's mighty six-foot-something, Olympic-gold-medal-winning frame and amply-filled, freshly-minted D-cups were being hoisted upon one very high horse without so much as breaking a nail acrylic or otherwise along the way.

If only all people transgender or otherwise struggling with life's burdens could be treated in the same way. But in reality such reaction is the exclusive preserve of celebrities.

But does "Caitlyn" deserve such admiration or attention? Was she really more "brave" than any of the countless other souls who face seemingly greater medical obstacles, like chemotherapy or dialysis, than getting breast implants and dermabrasion?

And was Caitlyn any more "courageous" for allowing a team of hair and make-up artists, stylists, photographers, wardrobe assistants, publicists, reporters, film crews and countless other "fluffers" fuss about her for days on end to have her photograph taken for the cover of Vanity Fair than any of the millions of poor unknown souls who battle their demons in silence and alone?

I doubt it.

Indeed much of this week's attention has been purely on the superficial, from the designer gowns Caitlyn wears in the shoot by Annie Leibovitz, to her choice in lipsticks and hair highlights.

Once again our society's priorities would appear a little off, but who wants to dwell on reality when you have reality TV stars to provide us with endless distractions?
Indeed it was a brave soul who dared to cast a critical, questioning eye over the media circus which for the past year or so brought us to this week's "unveiling" of Caitlyn Jenner.

But surely we should be just a tiny bit skeptical, as not all the motives here were totally altruistic. The Vanity Fair cover was the most recent in a long-line of highly orchestrated and manipulated media moments engineered by a team of media executives and publicists in the lead up to next month's debut of a new reality television series starring, you guessed it, Caitlyn Jenner on the E! network, by the same team which brought us Keeping Up with the Kardashians.

No doubt all the attention Caitlyn has enjoyed will ensure the new show will be just as popular as any of the other Kardashian franchises.

Indeed it was Jenner's "people" who approached Vanity Fair to do the spread and cover. The magazine leapt at the opportunity, but such deals also come with strict provisions on behalf of the subject. These are contractual provisions that determine what can and what can not be used in such articles.

In the world of big name celebrities like the Kardashians, it's all about control ... with a capital K.

Even the process of finding the name Caitlyn became a decision made by committee, Jenner admitting in the Vanity Fair article that several potential names were selected and it was an "assistant" who came up with the final moniker, inspired by entrants in a beauty pageant.

But just don't ask Caitlyn about double standards when it comes to gender equality.

How many other 65-year-old women have graced the cover of Vanity Fair recently wearing racy lingerie recently? Helen Mirren, 69, hasn't been given the honour. Meryl Streep's most recent VF cover has the 65-year-old looking like a librarian rather than lascivious.

Indeed it was a New York Times reader who wrote one of the most insightful comments on the whole sideshow: "Apparently Jenner gets the male privilege of being considered desirable at an older age that is not given to those actually born a woman."

Finally, someone not prepared to keep milking the sacred cow.

Apparently the entire procedure, including the full suite of feminising surgery that most transgender women could only dream about cost $4 million, which is 4% of Jenner's net worth. This sort of blind celebrity worship - and it is worship of particularly useless individuals - just makes me angry. I wasn't aware that the award is for brave individuals in relation to sports, but I'm 100% with Paul on his nomination in the OP.

CWSmith
06-06-2015, 07:21 PM
There seems to be no middle ground in The Bilge. Either Jenner is heroic to make this change so publicly, or she has a craven need for attention. Wow.

She has risked rejection by her children and friends, condemnation in the press, ridicule, and becoming a social pariah. That does take courage. Whether it exceeds someone who has lost so much to the violence of war - it's debatable. Give her some credit.

Duncan Gibbs
06-06-2015, 08:03 PM
SWIMPAL actually sat down and watched 10 minutes of KUWTK and the segment was all about Jenner pre-op 'disappearing' for two days as an experiment in "not being noticed." Guess what! It worked! Well Bruce has had his revenge now as Caitlyn.

On a personal level, having had a housemate in a share house who underwent gender reassignment, there is more courage in not going under the knife and having to face each day in a body that you don't feel is right.

Read my post again. It's NOT a question about societal acceptance. Jenner's big splash on the cover of VF is ALL about her status as a celebrity. Read the last few lines of the quoted article in my post. How many 65 year old women, born as women get to pose on the cover of VF in lingerie?

Jenner is nothing more than a celebrity brat whether she was a man, or as a woman now. Being TG, beyond her own personal need to be TG, is nothing more than a hook for furthering her career as a celebrity brat and does nothing much more than feed into the culture of blind worship of celebrity brat-hood. That she's been pictured on the cover of VF should speak to the fact that society has generally (with a few predictable pockets of exception) gotten over the whole LGBT thing as a public issue. It's not much chop for someone with buckets of money, and at the age of 65 to make such a move, in comparison to a 16 year old in country NSW or small town Iowa to come out to their conservative parents without $100 million behind them. THAT my friend takes courage in truck loads.

I've nothing, whatsoever, against Jenner's decision to make her change. What I do object to is the blind worship of her decision and accompanying publicity, including the Arthur Ashe Courage Award and the VF cover as if she's some kind of first, or paragon of courageousness, when any application of critical thinking should reveal that this is all about a boast of celebrity and not much else.

George Jung
06-06-2015, 11:06 PM
Hmmm.... must've nicked a nerve; I didn't know you 'knew' Jenners mind/motivation so well, certainly better than the rest of us.

I will defer to your greater insights.

Duncan Gibbs
06-06-2015, 11:32 PM
It's more that I have a complete and utter loathing of the whole celebrity thing. I consider these individuals to be oxygen thieves of the worst kind. They stand for nothing other than their own self glorification. As soon as one of them latches onto a "cause" be it a personal one, or something else brought on by a pricking of their conscience, suddenly all their previous wastefulness and self-obsession is forgiven, and they're given hero status, or made out to be ultra-courageous, or whatever.

Guess what? I'm not going to forgive, nor hold them up as heroes, nor as exemplars of courageousness. I'll do nothing other than burst their bubbles and cut them down to size at every and any possible opportunity, hideous creatures they are.

There are plenty of truly courageous TG individuals out there who have made a bucket load more difference for the lives of their community than moribund examples like Jenner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate_McGregor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_Jennings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balian_Buschbaum (another Olympian but she became a he and won't be posing in lingerie any time soon so it's not as glam' now is it!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Mock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaz_Bono

Then there are all the countless thousands, like my housemate in Sydney, who went under the knife decades ago. Jenner's late to the party.

Captain Intrepid
06-07-2015, 01:41 AM
I'm no fan of celebrities and celebrity culture.

On the other hand, they do have the power to bring things into the public mind that normally wouldn't be. That's the real positive effect of Caitlyn Jenner's public transition. She's not the first nor the most courageous (not to diminish the courage that it takes to transition let alone transition publically as a well known public figure), but she was able to make the issue known worldwide.

Keep in mind, there are lots of people in this world who would happy beat her up or kill her for what she's done.

Duncan Gibbs
06-07-2015, 03:36 AM
I'm no fan of celebrities and celebrity culture.

On the other hand, they do have the power to bring things into the public mind that normally wouldn't be. That's the real positive effect of Caitlyn Jenner's public transition. She's not the first nor the most courageous (not to diminish the courage that it takes to transition let alone transition publically as a well known public figure), but she was able to make the issue known worldwide.

Keep in mind, there are lots of people in this world who would happy beat her up or kill her for what she's done.
I'm not about to disagree that celebrities have power to bring things to public consciousness. And I agree with everything above, aside from the section I've set in bold. Every transgender individual I've known, and I've known a few other aside from my old housemate, have categorically stated that they could not wait for the surgery to happen and that it gave them a sense of overwhelming relief. It's not a matter of courage, but one of absolute need, in order to keep living.

Once you understand this fundamental point about why people go though with gender reassignment surgery the question of courage takes a distant second place. All Jenner is doing by appearing on the cover of VF trying to look like the caricature of woman of 45 at most, rather than one of 65, is gathering publicity by preaching to the converted. I don't need convincing that if someone needs to do such a thing that it's fine, and nor do I suspect any of the viewers of KUWTK, readers of VF, or most other people in the Western World need convincing.

If you're 16 and gay and have conservative Christian parents who haven't the foggiest about sexual diversity, coming out to them is the sort of thing that needs to be highlighted and supported. I doubt Jenner's actions will do much in that department.

seanz
06-07-2015, 04:07 AM
If you're 16 and gay and have conservative Christian parents who haven't the foggiest about sexual diversity, coming out to them is the sort of thing that needs to be highlighted and supported. I doubt Jenner's actions will do much in that department.

Yeah, you're wrong, again. :)

Doubt all you want, this is good publicity.

Duncan Gibbs
06-07-2015, 04:55 AM
I think I phrased that last bit a touch badly. Aside from the very last bit which remains true IMHO.

seanz
06-07-2015, 05:20 AM
Any positive additional reference point for isolated people with ignorant families would, no doubt, be a good thing.
:)

Duncan Gibbs
06-07-2015, 06:04 AM
Perhaps not one whose modern genesis was to be found in the step daughter's sex-tape, rather than gracefully working out his identity away from the frippery of unreality TV and all its self indulgence that was generated from said sex-tape. Y'folla?

The Bigfella
06-07-2015, 06:37 AM
Perhaps not one whose modern genesis was to be found in the step daughter's sex-tape, rather than gracefully working out his identity away from the frippery of unreality TV and all its self indulgence that was generated from said sex-tape. Y'folla?

Um, sort of. You have a sex tape to sell, or something?

Try Craigslist.

seanz
06-07-2015, 07:04 AM
Perhaps not one whose modern genesis was to be found in the step daughter's sex-tape, rather than gracefully working out his identity away from the frippery of unreality TV and all its self indulgence that was generated from said sex-tape. Y'folla?

No, I make a point of not watching celebrity's sex tapes. And besides, reference point doesn't mean paragon.

Duncan Gibbs
06-07-2015, 07:09 AM
Um, sort of. You have a sex tape to sell, or something?
You obviously have no idea what the source of Jenner's fame is for these later years well past her olympic record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Kardashian

First paragraph.

Here's another balanced and critical article:


Caitlyn Jenner and freedom of thought

Heather Wilhelm

http://www.trbimg.com/img-55709638/turbine/ct-caitlyn-jenner-reality-tv-still-jpg-20150604/726/726x408

As you may have heard, Bruce Jenner — former Olympian, raspy-voiced media showboat and newly manufactured creature of the Hollywood "No, seriously, no one is ever going to watch this …oh, Great Xenu, they're actually watching it!" reality TV factory — is now a woman.

He's not just any woman, of course: "Caitlyn," as Bruce is now called, is kind of hot, at least with the help of the undoubted layers of Photoshop that support her now-legendary Vanity Fair cover. On paper, her cheekbones glisten. Her bosom almost levitates. Caitlyn, at least as captured by Annie Leibovitz, is an otherworldly and mysterious creature, particularly when it comes to deciding which pronoun to use when describing her. ("His bosom almost levitates," you see, simply does not work.)

Americans of all stripes have showered accolades upon the new Ms. Jenner, all the way up to the White House. "It takes courage to share your story," Barack Obama's Organizing for America Twitter account declared; White House fixture Valerie Jarrett echoed this praise. Countless media outlets heralded Jenner's "bravery"; others thanked his/her "life-affirming" public transformation. Many naive souls praised Caitlyn's beauty, which led, somewhat hilariously, to an immediate leftist backlash, with various commentators bemoaning "female objectification" and the oppressive reinforcement of white, upper-class beauty standards. There are certain squares in this cosmic bingo match, friends, where you can't win.

One can view Caitlyn's positive, wall-to-wall, quasi-obsessive cultural reception as a welcome sign — an indicator that most Americans, despite our nails-on-the-chalkboard, marathon culture wars, just want to be kind, supportive and accepting. For most people, this is certainly true. Why should anyone care about someone else's personal decisions? What difference does it make? These questions, however, are based on the assumption that "live and let live" is a two-way street. Unfortunately, for most hard-core transgender supporters, that's just not the case: In their world, we all must agree. Because of this, many people are simply too scared to say what they really think.

Caitlyn, of course, is not really a woman. Mr. Jenner has not even shed his essential lower male infrastructure, let alone his pesky, clinging XY chromosomes. In this sense, he's actually more of a proverbial Gender Centaur, or even a proverbial Gender Mullet, than anything else. This might be uncomfortable, but it is the truth. It certainly doesn't lessen Jenner's worth as a human being or as a child of God. Yet, strangely, if you calmly note this simple scientific fact, certain people will get very, very upset.

Declare that Caitlyn's not a woman, and within moments, echoing the infamous Monty Python "Spanish Inquisition" skit, transgender enforcers — from various corners of the media, politics and, increasingly, public schools — will rush in, displaying alarm, surprise and a fanatical devotion to magical gender fluidity. Caitlyn, we are told, is a woman, because she says so; it is rude, cruel, backward and dangerous to think or say otherwise. After the Vanity Fair cover release, in fact, a Washington Post reporter teamed up with a friend to diligently code a program to automatically reprimand and correct any Twitter user who referred to Caitlyn as a "he."

This insistent squelching of the freedom of thought, and of simple facts, is remarkable. It's also remarkably unscientific. But in this sense, the Caitlyn Jenner media adoration explosion becomes illuminating, as it reveals an eternal truth about human beings: We can be incredibly intelligent and incredibly moronic at the exact same time, and are desperate for certainty in an uncertain world.

On Sunday, The New York Times ran a retrospective on the work of Paul Ehrlich, an acclaimed Stanford biologist who famously predicted mass chaos and apocalypse if world population growth didn't come to a screeching halt. His now-discredited 1968 book, "The Population Bomb," caused a panic of sorts, encouraging a wide range of anti-human, anti-growth policies and cultural norms, often spurred by Ehrlich's infamous comparisons of human beings to insects or garbage factories.

It's striking to watch the earnest past news coverage of the impending "population bomb" — a problem that never came — and compare it to current "climate change" hysteria, together with its many failed predictions for an apocalyptic present. It's also striking to compare both movements to the panicked line of people knocking each other over to display the "correct" opinion on transgender life, a phenomenon that is still not widely understood.

Even smart and sophisticated people, in short, are subject to crazes, and these mass bouts of hysteria, groupthink — and even outright panic — can leave significant collateral cultural damage in their wake. Let's all hope that Caitlyn Jenner does well, and that she finds peace. But the reason to care about her story has nothing to do with the fact that it's a celebrity publicity stunt, an obvious piece of propaganda or a clever mix of the two.

The past, as ever, is prologue; humans, no matter how much technology, science and knowledge we acquire, will always be a little crazy. With this in mind, we might want to tread carefully when forcing our ideas upon others. If Caitlyn can teach us that simple lesson, perhaps she'll have earned her round of applause.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-caitlyn-jenner-wilhelm-perspec-0605-20150605-story.html

Jenner hasn't even undergone surgery yet! Bloody hell! Who the hell is this then?

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyTH91FK-GCLrd7jm1MvFJYwfRjm4KQtPv9NC3CCzrTVvQl4XE

The Bigfella
06-07-2015, 07:17 AM
$4 million? Sheesh.... Here. I'll take a cut of the difference...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Thailand/095.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Thailand/095.jpg.html)

Duncan Gibbs
06-07-2015, 07:54 AM
Yeah, well she's had all the major feminising items such as the Adam's apple reduced. Hasn't gone all the way yet.


No, I make a point of not watching celebrity's sex tapes. And besides, reference point doesn't mean paragon.
Being given an award for "courage" is being made a paragon. Along with having all these eminent people, like the POTUS, say such swell things too!

It's hype. Pure BS. There are SO many other examples of LGBT individuals who have been in the public eye for a much longer period of time who have had much greater hurdles than Jenner (no pun intended) has ever had to face. Almost every gay and lesbian friend I've spoken to since the 'big reveal' have been universally dismissive of Jenner and say that her experience isn't representative of any of their experiences and may, in fact, hinder their cause because the 'big reveal' comes saddled with so much clap-trap including a 'reality' TV show. So in the community are downright hostile to Jenner.

Read a few comments here:
http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/06/01/heres-how-trans-folks-welcomed-caitlyn-jenner-twitterverse

I'm sure some positive outcomes will result from Jenner's big splash, but certainly not the kind that you may wish to be transformational in the way normal transgender people have to deal with life. To that extent people like Conchita Wurst are far, far more powerful points of reference.

George Jung
06-07-2015, 08:56 AM
The Committee held an emergency meeting (it was in the Pub), to discuss your latest diatribe. The consensus? You *may* use IMO, but - and we cannot emphasize this enough - *it is strongly recommended you drop the 'H'..... it's just not convincing, Mate.

Carry on.

Duncan Gibbs
06-07-2015, 09:06 AM
Fairy nuff! ;)

seanz
06-07-2015, 06:17 PM
Yeah, well she's had all the major feminising items such as the Adam's apple reduced. Hasn't gone all the way yet.


Being given an award for "courage" is being made a paragon. Along with having all these eminent people, like the POTUS, say such swell things too!

It's hype. Pure BS. There are SO many other examples of LGBT individuals who have been in the public eye for a much longer period of time who have had much greater hurdles than Jenner (no pun intended) has ever had to face. Almost every gay and lesbian friend I've spoken to since the 'big reveal' have been universally dismissive of Jenner and say that her experience isn't representative of any of their experiences and may, in fact, hinder their cause because the 'big reveal' comes saddled with so much clap-trap including a 'reality' TV show. So in the community are downright hostile to Jenner.

Read a few comments here:
http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/06/01/heres-how-trans-folks-welcomed-caitlyn-jenner-twitterverse

I'm sure some positive outcomes will result from Jenner's big splash, but certainly not the kind that you may wish to be transformational in the way normal transgender people have to deal with life. To that extent people like Conchita Wurst are far, far more powerful points of reference.

Listen to your friends, Duncan, listen to your friends. You may quibble about paragon, you paragon quibbler you, but regardless of your cruel opinion of Caitlyn, she is a point of reference.
Even if she just serves as a bad example...

Duncan Gibbs
06-07-2015, 07:03 PM
I'm a paragon quibbler.
A twisted paragon quibbler.

seanz
06-07-2015, 07:12 PM
You can change.




:)

The Bigfella
06-07-2015, 08:02 PM
Yes Dunc. Take things in hand before its too late. Change.

Duncan Gibbs
06-07-2015, 08:25 PM
Let me distil my opinion into these segments so you get it.

1. I'm all in favour of people owning their true sexual identity - the way they feel - and coming out. Absolutely! I've had many LGBT friends and have volunteered in HIV/AIDS services, so to mistake my opinion of Jenner for any kind of cruelty or prejudice is just plain wrong.

2. I strongly believe that the more people who internally identify as LGBT that proudly come out the more of a non-issue it will be for almost everyone and the easier the pathway will for those who are still closeted. (BTW for any of the Rons and Rods out there you can't 'catch' being gay, or be converted. Ya gotta born that way! :) )

3. I actually DO congratulate Caitlyn Jenner for making her move, however incomplete it is right now. My own experience of living with a complete transgender woman, and discussing the whole process and feelings about it in considerable depth with her, is that Caitlyn won't feel whole until the reassignment surgery has been completed. And here we get to the nub of the issue: This is NOT about courage, but about absolute NEED. You have to understand this. I mean really understand it! Really! If you don't you won't get where it is I'm coming from. The idea of being transgendered is that you are accepted completely as the opposite of what you were and in that respect your gender becomes 'invisible' as an issue.

4. I further dispute the notion that any kind of bravery is at work here, since I've never heard of a coming out of any other LGBT person being so completely managed and staged by a television network. Every aspect of Caitlyn's coming out is directed and paid for. Be under NO illusion that series amounts of cash are involved. E! TV approached VF to do the cover, not Caitlyn Jenner. E! TV has set up a whole new spin series off dealing with Jenner's transitioning. To think, even for a moment that such a coddled 'reality' will serve as a serious "reference point," however well it rates, for someone who DOESN'T have the backing of a whole TV network, and whopping big pile of cash is to be sorely mistaken. I'm sure the whole celebrity circus will have some small degree of 'normalising' of transgender issues by virtue of exposure, but that's about it. I doubt it will make much difference at all in the lives of other transgender people.

My worry is that the whole anaesthetic effect of celebrity culture will actually deaden the issue in people's lives and make appear as a rich person's choice, rather than something which often drives people into poverty and lives as sex workers. I strongly believe that this particular case is an example of extreme hype. If Jenner does go into depth during the series about the deeply personal reasons for her change, and also have a really good look at the transgender culture and the massive amounts of prejudice those without her cash to back her up actually face then I'll applaud her. But my bet is that it's just going to be a queer version of Keeping Up With The Kardashians.

Paul Pless
06-17-2015, 07:00 AM
Here ya go Duncan, give this a listen.

Awards For Athletes Should Honor Unsung Heroes: link (http://www.npr.org/2015/06/17/414931761/awards-for-athletes-should-honor-unsung-heroes)

Duncan Gibbs
06-17-2015, 07:09 AM
Bang on target! A bullseye! Thanks for the link Paul.

The first comment below says it all:


I am transgender, but not an athlete. Yes, I work out regularly, and take very good care of this body that I struggled my whole life to finally inhabit. So while not a star of the athletics world, I was still very deeply moved by Frank Deford’s contribution this morning regarding the Arthur Ashe Award, and its latest recipient.

While my heart goes out to anyone who has had to wrestle mightily to overcome enormous stigma, discrimination, and often violence simply to be themselves, Caitlyn Jenner is no more our exemplar than is Chelsea Manning. Her access to extensive financial resources and her preoccupation with the spotlight, are not typical to transgender persons. ESPN's and all the media’s fixation on hollow celebrities once again diminishes and makes a mockery of the “Shermans” of the transgender world, of whom there are many. I heartily commend Frank Deford for his own courage to point this out, and to speak about the transgender community with so much empathy, compassion,and respect.
Chloe