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David G
06-03-2015, 08:42 AM
http://www.economist.com/news/essays/21649050-badly-educated-men-rich-countries-have-not-adapted-well-trade-technology-or-feminism?fsrc=scn/fb/te/pe/ed/manhoodessay


To build on some previous posts - in an age when jobs requiring mostly muscle are going away and not likely coming back... what about men?

paulf
06-03-2015, 08:48 AM
Perhaps work hard and get a job that requires skill and knowledge?

Keith Wilson
06-03-2015, 09:01 AM
Nothing new; jobs that require muscle and little education have been going away for 100 years. Men are going to have to get educated.

bamamick
06-03-2015, 10:44 AM
Mississippi Gulf Coast CC has an operator training program that is working! It's an 18 month program where you take academic classes in maths and sciences and also get specialized instruction from experienced plant and refinery workers. At the end of that you are eligible for a 3 month paid internship at the Chevron Pascagoula refinery and regardless you go into Chevron's hiring pool once you complete the course.

We have taken advantage of this program by hiring six or seven guys from over there over the past year, and I am happy with every one of them. Most of them live in Mississippi so it's a 30-50 mile drive for them to get here, but it's a 50 mile drive for me, as well. These guys are sharp, are self-motivated, and take instruction well. The best thing about this course, as far as I can tell, is that it is a public educational facility doing it with supplements from local industry. We have hired many times from for-profit, non-accredited institutions and it's almost never worked out. Most of those people were on some sort of government re-training grant to get through their training program and it I have a very low opinion of those schools and the people we were being fed from them. This program at MGCCC is providing us with work-ready operations personnel at a fairly low cost to themselves and to us.

You can go to any town and talk to certain people and get a negative response. As someone who works in American industry I have a completely different view. I will put it this way: we still produce more pounds of product per employee than any other facility in my company, world-wide. You don't do that by being lazy or uneducated.

Mickey Lake

TomF
06-03-2015, 01:17 PM
Last week, my son got a B.Sc. Because the same handout booklet was used for most of the convocation ceremonies, I was able to take a quick look at the gender profile of graduates, across the various faculties. In his school:

66% of the B.Sc. graduates were women; there was rough parity (one person one way, one person the other) for Master's and PhD graduates in the same field.
a bit over 70% of BA graduates were women, and 60%+ of the Masters and PhD grads.
Education grads were about 85% women, including graduate level.
Nursing grads were 97% women, and 100% at graduate level.
Engineering grads were 32% women.


I didn't see the gender profiles for Law grads (which have been about 60% female recently), and we don't have a Med school here ... but across Canada, women are about 62% of those graduating with medical degrees. 75% of pharmacy. 85% of social workers. All of these graduates, in professional practice, work in fields where remuneration is competency based, with financial differences reflecting an individual's choices about the amount of work they choose to do.

This isn't news; women have made up over half of Canadian university graduates since the early 1990s. As a result, by now there's about a 10% spread in the Canadian general population between women and men who hold at least an undergraduate degree. In fact, Statistics Canada groups graduates into 12 general fields of study ... and by 2008, women were more than 50% of the graduate body in all but 3 (architecture/engineering, math, and personal protection/transportation services). Our province hires about 100 new doctors/year, to cover turnover rates; 60%+ are women. The median salary for physicians where I live is in the mid 6 figures, irrespective of gender.

I'm bloody tired of hearing that women must be specifically recruited into Engineering, or math, to make up for their comparatively abysmal representation. Are men being targeted for nursing, pharmacy, education or social work where the disparity's worse? Why not? A male patient wouldn't feel less embarassment having a male nurse change his bedpan, or apply a catheter to his penis?

In my daughter's very competitive Speech-Language-Pathology professional class ... women to men number 22:2. She's got no male professors, has met no male practitioners, has had no male clinical supervisors. Isn't this a more worrisome gender distribution than women's under-representation in architecture or math? Or in principle is designing homes or shopping centers much more important than helping someone learn to swallow or communicate after having a stroke?

Where are the gender studies programs and symposia examining the structural barriers to male participation in crucial fields? Where are the affirmative placement programs, recruiting men and re-making programs to attract them, in order to address a shocking disparity? Where are the awards to male students for their papers describing the historic pathways of discrimination that led to this situation?

At Chris' graduation, graduates applauded as an honorary doctorate went to a remarkable woman in her 80s who'd made tireless contributions to the community and university for over 60 years. Her speech focused on the importance of opportunities for young women. The sea of female Nursing and BsC graduates (outnumbering young men in the same convocation 4:1) solemnly applauded the urgency of fighting Patriarchy's ongoing dismissal of their professional life chances, with no sense of irony at all.

DMillet
06-03-2015, 01:33 PM
I had a home inspector a few years back who opened my eyes to the situation in a rather remarkable way.

He said "When I was in high school my grandfather pulled me and my brother aside and told us he was paying for my sisters to go to college. He couldn't afford to send all of us. He said you boys have tools, you can find work anywhere. Your sisters need an education so they don't wind up doing what some man decides they will do."

We (men) do need to get educated, but look at the people running the US government. It's a hard message to get across when our leaders demonstrate so clearly how little they value education.

Ted Hoppe
06-03-2015, 01:37 PM
In modern times - women and men are valued differently. all we need to do is look at the Selective Service laws where every 18 year old male must register while women are free to dismiss military service.

paulf
06-03-2015, 01:51 PM
If "they" decided to force me to take a test to get into college, I could not have gone.

High school dropout,older veteran student not prepared, needed a year of catch up work to just get started.

I found a professor, by luck, that gave me a brake. Women in my classes were getting As to my Cs until I locked in.

Eventually made presidents list. I really wanted it bad and worked for it.

I believe any male or female white or not student that has passion for a subject can go there. No cake walk tho.

Keith Wilson
06-03-2015, 01:52 PM
In all times men and women have been valued differently.. This is hard-wired biologically. Female reproductive capacity is limited as is as such a scarce resource; men's is not, pretty much. This fact explains a lot about human cultures.

TomF
06-03-2015, 02:00 PM
In all times men and women have been valued differently.. This is hard-wired biologically. Female reproductive capacity is limited as is as such a scarce resource; men's is not, pretty much. This fact explains a lot about human cultures.It explains military service. It doesn't explain repeated modern calls to action to recruit women into engineering, and nothing comparable for men and pharmacy or social work.

hokiefan
06-03-2015, 02:02 PM
Mississippi Gulf Coast CC has an operator training program that is working! It's an 18 month program where you take academic classes in maths and sciences and also get specialized instruction from experienced plant and refinery workers. At the end of that you are eligible for a 3 month paid internship at the Chevron Pascagoula refinery and regardless you go into Chevron's hiring pool once you complete the course.

We have taken advantage of this program by hiring six or seven guys from over there over the past year, and I am happy with every one of them. Most of them live in Mississippi so it's a 30-50 mile drive for them to get here, but it's a 50 mile drive for me, as well. These guys are sharp, are self-motivated, and take instruction well. The best thing about this course, as far as I can tell, is that it is a public educational facility doing it with supplements from local industry. We have hired many times from for-profit, non-accredited institutions and it's almost never worked out. Most of those people were on some sort of government re-training grant to get through their training program and it I have a very low opinion of those schools and the people we were being fed from them. This program at MGCCC is providing us with work-ready operations personnel at a fairly low cost to themselves and to us.

You can go to any town and talk to certain people and get a negative response. As someone who works in American industry I have a completely different view. I will put it this way: we still produce more pounds of product per employee than any other facility in my company, world-wide. You don't do that by being lazy or uneducated.

Mickey Lake

Joliet Junior College has a very similar program and we have been very happy with the folks we have hired from there. They still need a lot of training, but they have a start on it, and have demonstrated the initiative and ability to learn.

Cheers,

Bobby

Ted Hoppe
06-03-2015, 02:12 PM
In all times men and women have been valued differently.. This is hard-wired biologically. Female reproductive capacity is limited as is as such a scarce resource; men's is not, pretty much. This fact explains a lot about human cultures.

i am reminded of the film quote from Dr. Strangelove....

General "Buck" Turgidson: Doctor, you mentioned the ratio of ten women to each man. Now, wouldn't that necessitate the abandonment of the so-called monogamous sexual relationship, I mean, as far as men were concerned?
Dr. Strangelove: Regrettably, yes. But it is, you know, a sacrifice required for the future of the human race. I hasten to add that since each man will be required to do prodigious... service along these lines, the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature.
Ambassador de Sadesky: I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.

paulf
06-03-2015, 02:13 PM
It explains military service. It doesn't explain repeated modern calls to action to recruit women into engineering, and nothing comparable for men and pharmacy or social work.

I've always had an intense interest in, and a talent for "making stuff" metal, mechanical, electrical, wood whatever. Most of the women I've known not so much. There are exceptions, but generally we have differing interests.

I concur with your observation about Nurseing and other fields, but those fields traditionally pay less than other professional fields. The Military is a 6 year obligation having a child is an 18 year commitment.
I have 3 kids, one is a Nurse, One is a Law professor teaching legal writing and research and one is a Mechanical Engineer. I have 2 female children and 1 male. Guess who does what?

TomF
06-03-2015, 02:37 PM
Oh, I'd play the odds and say that your mechanical engineer's probably not among the 32% of the field who are women. And that likely the nurse is female (one of the 97%), though maybe she's the law professor (one of the 60%+ recent grads).

It's true that nurses etc. have traditionally been paid less than other professions. Wouldn't the market suggest that if gender parity is a good thing, that market incentives could fill the gap? Shouldn't customer (patient) preferences be a factor for hiring?

I'd strongly suspect that female patients would be shocked and aghast were a male nurse to insert a urine catheter; it's pretty damned intrusive sticking a wee tube up there, eh? Would a male patient feel no embarassment if a female nurse rolled a catheter onto him and taped it in place? Should a woman's sensitivities and embarassment weigh more than her husband's?

I'm arguing that actually, many visible feminists (like the lovely 80+ woman who received her honorary doctorate the other day) and gender studies as a discipline really couldn't care less about parity, or equality. It matters only in professions or pay bands which they find glamorous, high-profile, the most lucrative, or obviously oppressive to women. And it bugs the hell out of me, as the father both of a daughter who is benefitting from this, and of two sons who are not. Because it's not about justice, or equity, or equivalence of opportunity or value. It's still about preferential gendered access, just about reversing who experiences it.

johnw
06-03-2015, 03:03 PM
Last week, my son got a B.Sc. Because the same handout booklet was used for most of the convocation ceremonies, I was able to take a quick look at the gender profile of graduates, across the various faculties. In his school:

66% of the B.Sc. graduates were women; there was rough parity (one person one way, one person the other) for Master's and PhD graduates in the same field.
a bit over 70% of BA graduates were women, and 60%+ of the Masters and PhD grads.
Education grads were about 85% women, including graduate level.
Nursing grads were 97% women, and 100% at graduate level.
Engineering grads were 32% women.


I didn't see the gender profiles for Law grads (which have been about 60% female recently), and we don't have a Med school here ... but across Canada, women are about 62% of those graduating with medical degrees. 75% of pharmacy. 85% of social workers. All of these graduates, in professional practice, work in fields where remuneration is competency based, with financial differences reflecting an individual's choices about the amount of work they choose to do.

This isn't news; women have made up over half of Canadian university graduates since the early 1990s. As a result, by now there's about a 10% spread in the Canadian general population between women and men who hold at least an undergraduate degree. In fact, Statistics Canada groups graduates into 12 general fields of study ... and by 2008, women were more than 50% of the graduate body in all but 3 (architecture/engineering, math, and personal protection/transportation services). Our province hires about 100 new doctors/year, to cover turnover rates; 60%+ are women. The median salary for physicians where I live is in the mid 6 figures, irrespective of gender.

I'm bloody tired of hearing that women must be specifically recruited into Engineering, or math, to make up for their comparatively abysmal representation. Are men being targeted for nursing, pharmacy, education or social work where the disparity's worse? Why not? A male patient wouldn't feel less embarassment having a male nurse change his bedpan, or apply a catheter to his penis?

In my daughter's very competitive Speech-Language-Pathology professional class ... women to men number 22:2. She's got no male professors, has met no male practitioners, has had no male clinical supervisors. Isn't this a more worrisome gender distribution than women's under-representation in architecture or math? Or in principle is designing homes or shopping centers much more important than helping someone learn to swallow or communicate after having a stroke?

Where are the gender studies programs and symposia examining the structural barriers to male participation in crucial fields? Where are the affirmative placement programs, recruiting men and re-making programs to attract them, in order to address a shocking disparity? Where are the awards to male students for their papers describing the historic pathways of discrimination that led to this situation?

At Chris' graduation, graduates applauded as an honorary doctorate went to a remarkable woman in her 80s who'd made tireless contributions to the community and university for over 60 years. Her speech focused on the importance of opportunities for young women. The sea of female Nursing and BsC graduates (outnumbering young men in the same convocation 4:1) solemnly applauded the urgency of fighting Patriarchy's ongoing dismissal of their professional life chances, with no sense of irony at all.

In America, the sons of the well-to-do have as good a record of finishing college as their sisters. It's poor and minority men who aren't getting degrees to the same extent as their sisters.

Part of this is simple prejudice against boys in early education. It used to be, girls did better in primary school, boys caught up in high school. That's not happening anymore.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9862473/Boys-worse-at-school-due-to-stereotypes.html
Stereotypes about boys being intellectually inferior to girls affect children during the first years of primary school and prevent them fulfilling their potential, researchers found.

Teachers should assure boys that they are just as academic as girls and avoid doing anything which could make them feel inferior such as splitting classes by gender, they said.

In the first stage of the study researchers presented 238 boys and girls aged four to 10 with a range of scenarios related to behaviour or performance, such as “this child really wants to learn and do well at school”.

The children were asked to guess who the situation applied to by pointing to a silhouette of either a boy or a girl.

The results, published in the Child Development journal, showed that by the time girls are aged four and boys are seven, they equate girls with better behaviour and higher achievement at school.


Researchers also found that the children believed adults shared the same opinion as them, meaning that boys felt they were not expected by their parents and teachers to do as well as girls and lost their motivation or confidence as a result.
Further tests revealed that belief in their own academic inferiority could translate into lower school grades among boys.
A group of 162 seven and eight year olds was asked to sit a series of reading, writing and mathematics tests but half were told beforehand that boys were expected to score worse than girls.
Boys who were told they should expect lower marks performed worse in the test than those who were not given any information but girls’ marks were unaffected, suggesting stereotypes about male inferiority harm boys but do not help girls.
In contrast, when boys were told that they were expected to perform equally well as girls, their marks improved compared with those who were not given any expectations. Girls’ performance was again unaffected.
Official figures have shown that boys begin to lag behind girls by the age of five, with past research blaming the "gender gap" on biological differences, different learning styles, teachers' attitudes, a lack of male role models and even the "feminisation of the classroom".

CWSmith
06-03-2015, 03:03 PM
Years ago on the TV show Murphy Brown she discovered she was pregnant with a boy. She was disappointed. She said, "I wanted to teach her how to throw a ball and change the oil in a car. I guess I can do that with a son." Funny.

We do work hard to break down the perceived barriers, but not many of us accept that preference still plays a role. People will be what they want to be if they are given a chance and often it will break down along gender lines. The important thing is to convince ourselves that opportunity exists rather than demand demographics.

There will always be male-dominated jobs that women don't want and vice-versa while male nursing students will continue to be some of the happiest fellows you will ever meet.

paulf
06-03-2015, 03:27 PM
Oh, I'd play the odds and say that your mechanical engineer's probably not among the 32% of the field who are women. And that likely the nurse is female (one of the 97%), though maybe she's the law professor (one of the 60%+ recent grads).

It's true that nurses etc. have traditionally been paid less than other professions. Wouldn't the market suggest that if gender parity is a good thing, that market incentives could fill the gap? Shouldn't customer (patient) preferences be a factor for hiring?

I'd strongly suspect that female patients would be shocked and aghast were a male nurse to insert a urine catheter; it's pretty damned intrusive sticking a wee tube up there, eh? Would a male patient feel no embarassment if a female nurse rolled a catheter onto him and taped it in place? Should a woman's sensitivities and embarassment weigh more than her husband's?

I'm arguing that actually, many visible feminists (like the lovely 80+ woman who received her honorary doctorate the other day) and gender studies as a discipline really couldn't care less about parity, or equality. It matters only in professions or pay bands which they find glamorous, high-profile, the most lucrative, or obviously oppressive to women. And it bugs the hell out of me, as the father both of a daughter who is benefitting from this, and of two sons who are not. Because it's not about justice, or equity, or equivalence of opportunity or value. It's still about preferential gendered access, just about reversing who experiences it.

I mostly agree with you, and concur about health care.

My primary care doctor is a female and when I had a Aortic valve replacement female nurses did "all" the hookups and It did not bother me in the slightest. But I do see your point and engineers should be engineers because they love the job, not because they were recruited. Perhaps as kids grow up in these times girls will build erector sets and model planes and boys will nurture babies and build families, I don't know. Making it OK to children will change how everyone in the future will see and accept things.

The US Marines are evaluating women in combat roles.

Times they are a changing.

PeterSibley
06-03-2015, 05:00 PM
Perhaps work hard and get a job that requires skill and knowledge?


Nothing new; jobs that require muscle and little education have been going away for 100 years. Men are going to have to get educated.

As usual this ignores the fact that not everyone has the intelligence to ''get educated''. In our town the bottom 30% of school leavers have never worked and very likely will never work. The work their fathers did isn't there anymore, the mills have closed or become amazingly mechanised, agriculture has done the same.

If you have an IQ of 70 of 80 you are well qualified to stack timber in the mill or drive a tractor, you are however unlikely to achieve a university place or get your trade qualification.
Their position in society is not the result of sloth or lack of effort , it is "god given" and something they are stuck with.

paulf
06-03-2015, 05:17 PM
As usual this ignores the fact that not everyone has the intelligence to ''get educated''. In our town the bottom 30% of school leavers have never worked and very likely will never work. The work their fathers did isn't there anymore, the mills have closed or become amazingly mechanised, agriculture has done the same.

If you have an IQ of 70 of 80 you are well qualified to stack timber in the mill or drive a tractor, you are however unlikely to achieve a university place or get your trade qualification.
Their position in society is not the result of sloth or lack of effort , it is "god given" and something they are stuck with.

You have a point, and these are the folks that a reasonable social network is in place for. We have most likely opened up a can of worms about folks who arent suffering from the God given lack of IQ and are just scamming. Others will be along shortly to further discuss this.

PeterSibley
06-03-2015, 05:26 PM
My objection is the consistent demonisation of the group of potential workers by people who always seem to have been blessed with intelligence sufficient to achieve their dreams. If you have an IQ of 100 and up you have a reasonable chance in this economy ( other abilities or disabilities aside) otherwise you had best be lucky or have a friend who is an employer.

Michael D. Storey
06-03-2015, 07:29 PM
As usual this ignores the fact that not everyone has the intelligence to ''get educated''. In our town the bottom 30% of school leavers have never worked and very likely will never work. The work their fathers did isn't there anymore, the mills have closed or become amazingly mechanised, agriculture has done the same.

If you have an IQ of 70 of 80 you are well qualified to stack timber in the mill or drive a tractor, you are however unlikely to achieve a university place or get your trade qualification.
Their position in society is not the result of sloth or lack of effort , it is "god given" and something they are stuck with.
That lower 30% is in peril of a life without work, while the upper 70% is in peril of a life supporting them. It is incumbent on the 'gifted 70% to see that there is work for everyone capable.

Chip-skiff
06-03-2015, 08:07 PM
The tribal folks all had rituals that welcomed young males into manhood and confirmed their status in the group. These days, for the less-advantaged, that might be the military, or getting a job in a factory. Office jobs don't really get that done, which is why so many men who are successful and make lots of money are still chasing manhood, with cars and boy-toys, and sexual conquest.

I took a curious course, which consisted of learning the skills and trades of my male forebears: hand tools, horses, livestock, surveying and ditching, camp discipline. I also took on risky work such as wildland firefighting, being a horseback grazing cop, and backcountry rangering. That was augmented with long solo backcountry trips, rock and ice climbing, whitewater boating, and other recreational activities that require commitment and skill to pull off. Never made much money, alas. But I learned survival tactics.

I feel sorry for all the young men in deadend service jobs, taking crap from manager-pimps in white shirts and being treated like dirt by customers. How will they feel like they've achieved manhood?

TomF
06-03-2015, 08:19 PM
... I took a curious course, which consisted of learning the skills and trades of my male forebears: hand tools, horses, livestock, surveying and ditching, camp discipline. I also took on risky work such as wildland firefighting, being a horseback grazing cop, and backcountry rangering. That was augmented with long solo backcountry trips, rock and ice climbing, whitewater boating, and other recreational activities that require commitment and skill to pull off. Never made much money, alas. But I learned survival tactics. sounds like a great course.
I feel sorry for all the young men in deadend service jobs, taking crap from manager-pimps in white shirts and being treated like dirt by customers. How will they feel like they've achieved manhood?Buy a gun and skulk 'round gated communities pretending to be a cop? Go somewhere and express road rage?

I agree, it's tough. Society's suffering for the lack of men making a passage into responsible manhood.

bobbys
06-03-2015, 08:40 PM
sounds like a great course.Buy a gun and skulk 'round gated communities pretending to be a cop? Go somewhere and express road rage?

I agree, it's tough. Society's suffering for the lack of men making a passage into responsible manhood.
.

Or maybe one of Obamas pajama boys.

PeterSibley
06-03-2015, 08:53 PM
Right up to you usual outstanding standard there bobby .... I thought you might actually have something worth saying on this subject, being a tradie and all .

Have a go.

skuthorp
06-03-2015, 09:03 PM
The tribal folks all had rituals that welcomed young males into manhood and confirmed their status in the group. These days, for the less-advantaged, that might be the military, or getting a job in a factory. Office jobs don't really get that done, which is why so many men who are successful and make lots of money are still chasing manhood, with cars and boy-toys, and sexual conquest.

I took a curious course, which consisted of learning the skills and trades of my male forebears: hand tools, horses, livestock, surveying and ditching, camp discipline. I also took on risky work such as wildland firefighting, being a horseback grazing cop, and backcountry rangering. That was augmented with long solo backcountry trips, rock and ice climbing, whitewater boating, and other recreational activities that require commitment and skill to pull off. Never made much money, alas. But I learned survival tactics.

I feel sorry for all the young men in deadend service jobs, taking crap from manager-pimps in white shirts and being treated like dirt by customers. How will they feel like they've achieved manhood?
There was a time not so long ago where such risky behaviour was an evolutionary advantage amongst males for the tribe. More males are born for this reason, and male brains don't mature re risk taking till 25 at least. At 25 they were about 10-15 years from their use by date and probably had already passed on their genes. After that they were dispensable.
Civilisation is a thin veneer, our evolution is slow to catch up, if it ever will.

bobbys
06-03-2015, 09:06 PM
Right up to you usual outstanding standard there bobby .... I thought you might actually have something worth saying on this subject, being a tradie and all .

Have a go..

What do you have against Obamas pajama boys?.

TomF
06-03-2015, 09:10 PM
.

What do you have against Obamas pajama boys?.other than not having a freaking clue what one is, you mean?

PeterSibley
06-03-2015, 09:15 PM
other than not having a freaking clue what one is, you mean?

Seconded, bobby try to contribute something .... this isn't a party political thread.

bobbys
06-03-2015, 09:17 PM
other than not having a freaking clue what one is, you mean?
.

Well you had Yer shot at the white Hispanic , Guess you and peter cannot take a little back can Ya?

Keith Wilson
06-03-2015, 09:18 PM
At 25 they were about 10-15 years from their use by date and probably had already passed on their genes. After that they were dispensable.Old men and women were very important. There weren't many of them, given the rates of death from disease and violence, but they knew things. When everything has to be passed on orally, the elders are your library, your university, your archives.

PeterSibley
06-03-2015, 09:19 PM
.

Well you had Yer shot at the white Hispanic , Guess you and peter cannot take a little back can Ya?

What are you talking about ????

bobbys
06-03-2015, 09:22 PM
What are you talking about ????.
TOM responded with a reference to George Zimmerman to make a inane point.

TomF
06-03-2015, 09:29 PM
.
TOM responded with a reference to George Zimmerman to make a inane point.
Tom observed that there are a bunch of wannabe men out there, who haven't managed to grow into responsible adults.

Yeah, the reference to wannabe cops skulking 'round gated communities was pointing a finger at Zimmerman as an example of the type. You'd rather I just mentioned road rage? Or perhaps young men pretending to talk like toughs from bad neighbourhoods? Impregnating women and leaving them to raise kids alone?

Lots of young men who haven't managed a transition, one way or another, into being actual grownups .. and the society's suffering for it.

48% of American kids grow up without their fathers - only slightly better in Canada. Hardly an inane point about young men not graduating somehow into being real men.

skuthorp
06-03-2015, 11:29 PM
I know and have known quite a few 'adult men' who at 50 odd haven't managed the transition. But eventually age, biology and bad habits catches them up.

jsjpd1
06-04-2015, 12:56 AM
I can very much relate to the rite of passage idea. I grew up a child of divorce, with a mostly absent father (who I still idolized). Three quarters of the way through college I got bored and restless (and much to my mother's dismay) I dropped out and went to go work in the woods driving log truck for my dad. It was a huge step for me working with the same group of guys and being accepted as full member of this group doing important and dangerous work. I felt like I really came into my own self.

Of course, a couple years later I realized my mom was right and returned to finish college so I could get a desk job and be a better provider while also being able to spend time with my family. But there are definitely days when I miss being in the woods.

Jim

Waddie
06-04-2015, 02:07 AM
My objection is the consistent demonisation of the group of potential workers by people who always seem to have been blessed with intelligence sufficient to achieve their dreams. If you have an IQ of 100 and up you have a reasonable chance in this economy ( other abilities or disabilities aside) otherwise you had best be lucky or have a friend who is an employer.

Peter, I agree that a few people just don't have the IQ to make it very well, and the types of jobs they used to get aren't around anymore or require more skill than they can muster. However, I believe the real cause of male failure in this area is that girls take school more seriously than boys. Even the gang banger girls I taught took school seriously enough to get fairly well educated. At least the basics. Many of the boys were there only to play sports or socialize, and far fewer of them took school seriously. Besides, studying is hard work; not something you want to do if you come to school high every day, which many of the males did. I don't know why, but the girls didn't come to school high very often; now maybe after school they got high, but it was mostly males who came to school high. The worst thing about teenagers smoking pot regularly is that it can take away their ambition. Not a good thing for a young male.

regards,
Waddie

skuthorp
06-04-2015, 02:17 AM
"I don't know why, but the girls didn't come to school high very often; now maybe after school they got high, but it was mostly males who came to school high."
If you are a girl whose male peers are high a deal of the time it pays to keep your wits about you.

PeterSibley
06-04-2015, 02:32 AM
Peter, I agree that a few people just don't have the IQ to make it very well, and the types of jobs they used to get aren't around anymore or require more skill than they can muster. However, I believe the real cause of male failure in this area is that girls take school more seriously than boys. Even the gang banger girls I taught took school seriously enough to get fairly well educated. At least the basics. Many of the boys were there only to play sports or socialize, and far fewer of them took school seriously. Besides, studying is hard work; not something you want to do if you come to school high every day, which many of the males did. I don't know why, but the girls didn't come to school high very often; now maybe after school they got high, but it was mostly males who came to school high. The worst thing about teenagers smoking pot regularly is that it can take away their ambition. Not a good thing for a young male.

regards,
Waddie

Most of my knowledge about the local educational situation came from reports from my 3 daughters when they were at high school and a brief stint as a youth worker. Drugs seemed to be a relatively minor input at school although some kids got into it in big way but that often seemed to be self medication for trying to operate in a highly unsuitable environment. The primary difficulty was just not being smart enough and thus leaving school at 15 well prepared for a life of unemployment. Broad backs are not of much value in our employment market.

skuthorp
06-04-2015, 02:40 AM
Parental expectations and example are important too Peter. In my day parents often discouraged or even forbade further education, sometimes the fathers in particular didn't like competition in their role in the family. It was worse for girls of course.

PeterSibley
06-04-2015, 03:10 AM
Those days have largely disappeared I think Jeff, I find it hard to imagine a kid today not being educated to the best level she or he is capable of ... the message about the costs of under education are pretty obvious now . Not too many Dad's want the boy to follow them down the pit and the girl child to marry at 18.

Keith Wilson
06-04-2015, 07:13 AM
I find it hard to imagine a kid today not being educated to the best level she or he is capable of . . . Perhaps things are different in Australia, but I find it very easy to imagine. Most reasons I've seen for someone not getting at least reasonably well-educated have little to do with innate intelligence.