Shop Floor

[melissavt]

My husband and I are looking over plans for a garage / workshop for boat restoration. We will be putting an apartment on the second floor. What would you suggest for flooring in the workshop area. My concern is heating the entire structure efficiently while provding the best environment for my husband's boat repair/building/restoration hobby. Will concrete be a problem with wooden boats? Even if it is a heated slab?

Thank you,
Melissa (South Hero, Vermont)

[capt jake]

Concrete is the most forgiving. Easy to clean, etc. I paint mine every couple of years to help in dust abatement (ha ha). Concrete is also the most cost effective floor to consider also.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Concrete well above grade for drainage purposes, then covered in some work areas with a wood floor.

In your part of the country, if it were me, I'd use pine. Hemlock's too hard to nail into once dried.

The wood floor will be easier on legs and on dropped tools, and will give you something easy to fasten to as you build various projects.

Alan

[cs]

Concrete, Huh? Interesting idea. Mine just seems to be globs of epoxy. Wait, there might be concrete underneath there.

Serously some folks will say you need a wood floor and some will say a dirt floor. From what I gather concrete will suck the moisture out of the wood and it is also not user friendly. That is to say when you drop a tool it breaks (maybe why my belt sander now makes a funny noise). Concrete also wears out your feet and knees quicker. On the upside it is usually quick & cheap to put in.

A wood floor on the other hand gives you a good place to loft if need be and you can drive nails or screws in it as needed.

Chad

[TomRobb]

Your Chiropractor will love the concrete :rolleyes: Your feet, knees, and dropped edge tools will hate it. Wood plank - even plywood - is considerably more forgiving.

[Bruce Hooke]

All my workshops over the years have had concrete floors and I've always dreamed of having a wood floor for all the reasons people have mentioned above. A wood floor is particularly nice for boatbuilding & repair because you often have to attach things to the floor to brace and support the boat.

Dirt or gravel are often recommended because they help keep the air moist, which is good for the boats but I don't think either would be wise in a heated space; and neither is really viable unless you have a large enough area that you can have a separate space, with a real floor, for the power tools, since these really need a firm, flat floor to sit on.

The next best thing in terms of keeping the air moist in the winter is to make sure that the space is well insulated and doesn't leak a lot of air. The air in buildings that leak a lot of air is much drier than the air in 'tight' buildings. This does mean that you need to plan for some sort of self-contained dust collection system otherwise you will pretty much be forced to vent a lot of air outside to get rid of the dust.

[melissavt]

Thank you for your replies. So placing a wood floor over a concrete slab would work? We had thought that we had to go with dirt but again, my concern was with making sure the second floor can be heated without costing a fortune.
Thank you.
Melissa

[Pete Dorr]

Any snow yet up there in VT ?

Unheated dirt/gravel floor is best for winter storage (or so says Pete Culler in his book).

Can you build your shop with a full or half height basement underneath. You would then have a wood floor for the shop and you could run your dust collection / future wiring / whatever underneath the floor.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

My boat barn has a concrete slab floor all 3,500 sq. ft of it. I lay down cheep 4 x 8 ply in about half of it to work on and not care about epoxy spill and such. Works for me. I have 2 Apt above it and now I have to be way more considerate about my shop hrs and fumes

[Dave Fleming]

A thought or two on boat shop floors.
I have worked in yards with dirt floors. Good for setting up new builds but hell on electrical tools that fall on it. Seems no matter how well you blow them out with compressed air some grit remains and just eats up the innards. Very friendly to feet and hand tools though.
Can be considered good for repair work too as it is very easy to dig a hole to drop the rudder clear of the hull.
That kind of shop had a space alongside the dirt floor planked over sleepers for woodworking machinery and benches etc..Worked well too.
Concrete floors are,IMOOP, a pain. In the feet, in the back, in the knees. Tools don't do well on hitting a concrete floor. Hard to set braces, jigs that sort of stuff and it, unless well insulated and drained under slab, damn cold in the winter.
Now if I fugger this right, you folks are up in New England where the snow blows and the noses glow, correct?
Here is my OOP solution, a well drained and insulated slab, not a monolithic pour, use 6K PSI concrete, let dry for at least 30 days, then have roofer come in and hot mop and lay 90 lb felt in the hot mop, let set for about a week, lay double 2x8 or 2x10 or 2x12 sleepers on a center to center pattern consistent with the floor cover material ie: ply or plank and the thickness thereof. with the sleepers in place it is time to bring in the heating type and have them lay radiant heat tubing. When that is done, begin laying the flooring material.
You got a concrete slab floor a wood top floor, radiant heat and with proper ventilation and temps all should be well for a boat shop. My advice would be to keep that heating system set at a temperature just warm enough to take the chill out of things but not warm enough so you can walk around in your BVDs, ya folla?
Worried about hummadidity, well, buy a humidifier and have a whatever its called guage hanging on the wall to keep track of it. Dust collection will be a challenge because as was said, direct venting will suck the warmth right out of the shop but I am sure there have been many solutions to this problem developed. Do some research with some of the better known makers of dust collection systems not Grizzley or Delta but a real bonafide DC maker, some advertise in the woodworking mags and may even advert in WB.
Am I making sense here?

Addendum: If you are going to do much goo-goo work then perhaps an area devoted to layups and such could be covered with a sacrifical layer of 1/4 ply over the good floor and just take it up and to the dump when goo-goo work is done.

[ 10-02-2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[mmd]

I've been in the position to spec such things for professional shops. Assuming money is no object (isn't that the case where wooden boats are concerned? ;) ), I would put down a concrete floor with in-floor heating, paying close attention to getting the floor as level as possible. In operation, I would lay down a cheap 3/8" ply floor that extends about 2-3 feet past the perimeter of the project being worked on to save tools that are dropped. This does double duty as the loft floor prior to commencement of the project. If the ply slips on the concrete, pick it up, mop the floor clean, put a few stripes of Butyl tape on the floor for non-skid, and lay the ply on top of it. If the shop is too dry for your wood, toss in a cheap humidifier - no good paying big bucks for a good 'un, 'cause the dust will destroy it just as fast as a cheap one.

[ 10-02-2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: mmd ]

[Sailing-Randy]

Okay, what do you guys think? A while back I saw an idea for a floor. Over a concrete slab lay a plastic moisture barrier. Over that place ½” foam insulation. Over that place 2 layers of ½” plywood offsetting the edges so when you screw it together you have solid “one piece” floor.

The idea was suggested for a garage floor, but I thought since we’re on the topic of floors…I’d ask. I am thinking of doing it for my next boat.

[JimD]

I just work in a converted old car garage, put wood over the concrete slab that was already there. The slab was very uneven so I framed with 2X2s, shimmed it level and floored with ply so now I have a raised sprung wood floor, sort of. It gets stupid cold here in the winter, but the wood over top makes a difference, also as others point out easier on tools and knees
jimd

[Tonyr]

I have a rough cast concrete slab with 1 inch insulating foam laid on top. Over this is a 3/4" thick layer of cheap chipboard. Where four corners of this come together, I pour some thick epoxy to stop the edges curling. Works very well at six years and counting, nice and soft to stand on, and warm in winter (I have 6" insulated walls and 18" in the roof).

Regards, Tony.

[capt jake]

Knees?? That is what knee pads are for! smile.gif

I hear what the rest of you are saying. all valid points. Concrete has the benefit of, if and when you slop epoxy (we never do that, do we?) you can scrape it off and continue on! Now with a wood floor? :( I don't think so.

[htom]

Concrete is hell on feet and knees and tools and ...; it is fairly safe from woodpeckers, though.

It's much easier to replace a board in a floor than to repour it.

[wolfietuk]

As for dust collection in a small home shop, just get one of the small machines and keep it inside the shop. Dust is fu\iltered out, heat stays in.

Rick

[Bob Perkins]

I have a concrete floor with radiant heat installed. If you can put in this combination as opposed to just concrete, go this way.

I agree with everyone that it is hard and not dropped tool friendly, but if you have ever been in a building heated this way, it is great. I use strategicly placed floor mats.

Humidity levels do not vary wildly (like a gas heat blower). All the tools are warm (no condensation). No blower noise or dust storms from blowers.

If you open a large door, let all of the cold air in, then close it. It is almost instantly warm again.

The heat installer said wood is an insulator (as we know), so wood over the floor would be inefficient.

Finally, it is very cost effective operationally. It is very cheap to run as compared to other forms of heat (except burning scap I suppose...)

Good Luck

[WWheeler]

I have a dirt floor, but I'm sick of trying to move the table saw around on it. It floods in spring too, and gets all soft - the table saw fell over one year. I want a good floor, so I'm going to build an extension with a concrete floor, and good insulation.

[Dave Williams]

For my shop I poured perimeter footings and stem walls 8 in. above grade. Inside those stem walls I put pea gravel which is easy to work and much cheaper than concrete. I screeded it level much like you would screed concrete. I put down a vapor barrior under the gravel. On top of this gravel bed I laid two layers of 1/2 in. OSB oriented in opposite directions and the seams staggerd. Bought the OSB late in the season (about now) when lumber prices were down. The bottom layer which was on the gravel was pressure treated to deal with any moisture. That's unlikely since I have huge overhangs. Screwd together this created a 1 in. thick floating diaphram. Since the round pea gravel is non compressable (somewhat like trying to compact a jar of marbles) the floor has remained quite flat and level. Don't use crushed rock because it will settle and your floor will become wavy.

This was three years ago and the floor is still flat and is very nice to work on. It was much cheaper than excavating and framing a floor and retains all the qualities of a wood floor. Easy on the legs, easy on tools and you can fasten things to it anywhere. Individual sheet can be replaced if they get trashed for whatever reason. Sand and paint an area for lofting when needed. It is also easy to put dust collection and electrical runs in the gravel if you know where you need such.

As far a radiant heating is concerned. I think the lag time to warm up an area or for that matter cool it down, is to long. Plus, I am always creating scrap that I need to deal with. So fuel for the stove.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[ 10-03-2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Dave Williams ]

[Darren McClelland]

I built a shop about two years ago and poured a concrete slab, easy to clean, cheap to install, good working surface. I am building a house and have installed radient floor heat in the basement slab with a stamped concrete finish so the basement floor is complete. The main floor is your traditional wood construction and Iam placing the radient floor heating in the joist spaces with a reflective barrier to maintain the floor heat. the American hardwood association claims that wood flooring is a very good conductor of heat and having the wood at a
constant temperature is actually better for the flooring then other forms of heating systems.

If I where to build a new shop, I would pour a footing for the walls and then lay down 2" of styrofoam and 2x 4 pressure treated lumber sleepers and place the radient floor heating between and then place a wood floor above. A heated floor with a wood deck for all the advantages listed above plus looks.

Good luck Darren

[ 10-03-2002, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Darren McClelland ]

[TomRobb]

If you want to do a radiant floor under wood, watch out for fasteners for molds or whatever temporarily attached stuff punching holes in your tubing or wiring. :eek:

[George Roberts]

Melissa --

A lot depends on the size and type of boat you are building.

If you are building/repairing plank on frame boats. You need moisture in the air. I would think that a dirt floor or concrete floor with humidifier would work. A wood floor with humidifier might be just the thing for mold and rot.

If you are building woodstrip/glass boats you don't care about the humidity as much as long as it is constant.

Big boats will be easier to build on concrete floors. I suspect even 1" plywood over rocks will setle as you build something big.

I just built a new shop. The downstairs has concrete floors (6000#/sq ft desig.n). The upstairs has plywood floors (130#/sqft.) For small boats the upstairs is nice (so is the 6' door). Large boats (over 2000#) do better on the first floor.

[T.KAMILA]

Built my catboat under a three season room addition to the house. The floor was dirt so I laid a poly-tarp down before I set up the strong back. It worked out quit well. Soft on your feet and no grit. When the sawdust became a problem I just swept it up. Plenty of moisture no problem with things becoming too dry.

Probably not the best for a permanent installation but it worked for the two and a half years I needed to build the boat.

Tom

[warthog5]

This makes me glad I live in NW Florida. 30X30 steel building added to a existing 24X36 block building. All concreate floors with epoxy paint on them. Easy to clean. I lay pieces of plastic sheeting to catch epoxy. The 30X30 has 14ft walls. The door in the 30X30 is 14'w X 12'h. I've got 1680sqft total and I still would like more room. I heat it with a 30,000btu heater and I A/C it with a 18,000 window unit and a few fans. The heat and cool is only in the 30X30 side. The floor is 4in slab 3K w/ fiberglass and 10X10 wire. The footers are pretty big for Fl. Total of 1200lbs of steel in slab and no cracks after 6yrs.

[ 10-08-2002, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: warthog5 ]

[On Vacation]

Hey warthead, I have been denied entry into the southern route. My mail sever is down again so I couldn't send you info. I am trying another avenue which may work out, but its only Tues.

[ 10-08-2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: oyster ]

[Nicholas Carey]

Well...as far as flooring goes, here's my two cents worth:

Concrete sucks/Wood rules

Your could get a bit fancy and build a floor like this one:

Back in the 1920s, Henry Ford built a ballroom (Lovett Hall) in Dearborn, Michigan (now a part of the Henry Ford Museum/Greenfield Village), that has what I consider to be the finest dance floor every built.

The flooring itself is Burmese teak about three inches thick. It's a sprung floor to make it easy on the dancer's joints. The floor is mounted on Ford Model "T" leaf springs. Not a bad way to go for dancing.

It would make a great shop floor, too. :D