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PeteCress
05-03-2015, 02:45 PM
I am still sniffing around: looking for something that will let me eke out a few more years on the water once windsurfing and surf-ski paddling become impractical.

I am guessing/hoping that a few WoodenBoat contributors have been here before me.

My "Musts" include submerged-obstacle surviveability and one of the strong "Wants" is transportability.

Current requirements (with apologies to Messrs Kepner and Tregoe): http://tinyurl.com/kt46oj8
(They call this a decision-making tool, but I would call it more of a communication device: you throw all your requirements, weights, and numbers up there and now everything is up front for people to see, dispute, and enhance).

(http://tinyurl.com/papwd7u)
WETA = A small trimaran from New Zealand as per http://www.wetamarine.com/the-boat/

P5 = A bi-directional, stich-and-glue proa as per http://tinyurl.com/mp6ab22 and http://tinyurl.com/oshujnd

2014 or Earlier AI = Hobie Adventure Island canoe-trimaran before they made it heavier: http://www.hobiecat.com/mirage/mirage-adventure-island/

CanoeTri = Canoe-trimaran optimized for moderate air as per http://canoetri.com/canoetri.html



The current version notwithstanding, I do not consider WETA to be out of the running because of the possibility of fitting a rotating daggerboard - like the Hobie Adventure Island uses.

Computed scores, of course, grow out of Weights assigned to "Wants" and the Values (now well the prospective solution fulfills the "Want") assigned.

Can anybody add some more "Musts" or "Wants"?

Suggestions for changing the Weights and/or Values of "Wants"?

Advice from those who have gone ahead of me?

skuthorp
05-03-2015, 03:50 PM
I'm 72. I paddle sea kayak, surf, and sail a couple of very tender one person small craft. But it depends on agility and general health I guess. I have been contemplating a Hartley variant but not as an "old persons sailing vehicle' just a more social one.

upchurchmr
05-03-2015, 04:48 PM
Trika 540.
I wish it had more sail area and ama size, but it might fit you perfectly.
Looks like in a big puff it would bury the ama like the Canoe Tri. (funny, I looked for imformation on those boats 10-15 years ago and there it is all laid out)

I don't know why you want to crash into submerged obstacles :d

Peter Malcolm Jardine
05-03-2015, 04:56 PM
I'm 72. I paddle sea kayak, surf, and sail a couple of very tender one person small craft. But it depends on agility and general health I guess. I have been contemplating a Hartley variant but not as an "old persons sailing vehicle' just a more social one.

Good on you dude, that's impressive.

john welsford
05-03-2015, 05:07 PM
"Old" is a very nebulous term. I was lucky enough to have designed an entry in the 1999 Mini Transat and the entrants sponsor flew me to the finish to "pit crew" the skipper and boat.
These are really extreme mini ocean racers, and remember that at the finish line in the Caribbean the boats had been single handed from France.
Two of the guys in the top 20 ( out of about 65) were over 70 years old, and were both planning to do the next event two years later.

John Welsford. Who will be 70 far too soon, and is not planning on slowing down until they put me in a box.

Binnacle Bat
05-03-2015, 05:36 PM
The older one gets, the harder it is for one person to cartop, especially a boat that can carry two, and is fun to sail as well as paddle. All my current boats are trailer boats, although two of them could be easily be cartopped by two people, I find the need to go by myself drives me to trailering.

I also find that an important factor is setup and breakdown time, so I find myself drawn towards monohulls with unstayed rigs. The fewer tiddly bits the better. Something like a Goat Island Skiff pushes my buttons, but you would need to switch to a swing centerboard do meet your grounding at speed criteria.

In our society, one only is allowed to have one woman at a time, sometimes the best compromise is several boats.

Allan
(Thistle, Sunfish, and MacGregor sailing canoe)

sailnstink
05-03-2015, 09:58 PM
Perhaps this http://gentrycustomboats.com/Splinter.html doesn't carry a passenger but seems pretty close on most points. Wins on weight.

Wooden Boat Fittings
05-03-2015, 11:57 PM
It sounds rather as if you want a Peter Duck. This was the boat that Arthur Ransome had Jack Giles design for him as a "sort of a marine bath chair" for his old age --


http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/p/295934/18218036/1371588174727/pd+kids.jpg?token=oq8XEhwoKeelvJuWKlLaOZFSCSY%3D
Mike

PeteCress
05-04-2015, 09:30 AM
In our society, one only is allowed to have one woman at a time, sometimes the best compromise is several boats.

I follow that in terms of windsurfers and bicycles - one secret being to keep the pile of stuff big enough so that nobody notices additions.

JimD
05-04-2015, 09:47 AM
If I may state the obvious, anecdotal stories from septuagenarians whose bodies have held up remarkably well won't help you. As long as you can keep doing what you're doing you don't need a new boat. And when it is time you will need something that accomodates a physically deteriorated body. That means things like loss of strength, flexibility, agility, reflexes, and so on. So look for a comfortable, easily handled boat that reflects the realities of the aging process. In other words you need the foresight to build a boat that you don't yet need. Not a lot of us have that foresight. I'd bet there are quite a few 'old persons' who have gone ahead and built the boat they can no longer use.

PeteCress
05-04-2015, 09:54 AM
It sounds rather as if you want a Peter Duck. This was the boat that Arthur Ransome had Jack Giles design for him as a "sort of a marine bath chair" for his old age --

Maybe if I had a mooring....

PeteCress
05-04-2015, 10:07 AM
If I may state the obvious, anecdotal stories from septuagenarians whose bodies have held up remarkably well won't help you. As long as you can keep doing what you're doing you don't need a new boat. And when it is time you will need something that accomodates a physically deteriorated body. That means things like loss of strength, flexibility, agility, reflexes, and so on. So look for a comfortable, easily handled boat that reflects the realities of the aging process. In other words you need the foresight to build a boat that you don't yet need.
That's where I am now: fully able to paddle my surf ski and, hopefully (the season has not started yet) windsurf.... and I could accidentally pull my bike out into oncoming traffic tomorrow and make this whole exercise moot.

But I think you are right on the money by identifying the issue of predicting what will work after the decline - as opposed to here-and-now.

The proa is currently losing ground in that respect. It wins hands-down when one emphasises transportability - both on the road and up/down the beach; recovery from capsize; and a sort of fuzzy "fun factor" in tuning/setting up.

It even seems to score well in that the operator should not have to move around very much - the operative word being "should".... The problem, though, is lack of availability of a test boat to confirm that the seating positions/operator movement are not unrealistic.

OTOH, WETA is available for testing and Hobie's Adventure Island should be if I look enough.

JimD
05-04-2015, 10:45 AM
That's where I am now: fully able to paddle my surf ski and, hopefully (the season has not started yet) windsurf.... and I could accidentally pull my bike out into oncoming traffic tomorrow and make this whole exercise moot.

But I think you are right on the money by identifying the issue of predicting what will work after the decline - as opposed to here-and-now.

The proa is currently losing ground in that respect. It wins hands-down when one emphasises transportability - both on the road and up/down the beach; recovery from capsize; and a sort of fuzzy "fun factor" in tuning/setting up.

It even seems to score well in that the operator should not have to move around very much - the operative word being "should".... The problem, though, is lack of availability of a test boat to confirm that the seating positions/operator movement are not unrealistic.

OTOH, WETA is available for testing and Hobie's Adventure Island should be if I look enough.
I'm only 60 and can't do shyte any more. So here's what its like for me, in no particular order. Regarding capsize recovery, its a non issue. I now presume I will not be able to recover from capsize unless its a really small boat. Do I want that small a boat at this stage? No, emphatically so. The sorts of boats I could still right are the sorts of boats that require too much of the physical abilities I no longer have to sail the boat in the first place. If my boat goes over most likely its going to be righted by someone else's efforts, not mine. So I'd look for a design that is very difficult to capsize in the first place and if it does, how am i going to survive a capsize without righting the boat? Transportability: Transport on a trailer. Launch and retrieve at a ramp. Tuning and set up: That's just more time and work using up precious energy. The less the better. High performance anything is probably not a good idea. Getting old means backing off on the throttle and slowing down. If you are still thinking in terms of lifting a boat on and off a cartop, dragging it up and down a beach, singlehandedly righting from capsize, fine tuning a high performance rig, then you are not thinking old. Old means the cold water feels colder. The strain on the muscles means pain in the muscles. The thought "I could get injured or wind up in real trouble doing this and its not worth the risk anymore" starts to occupy your mind more and more, detracting from the enjoyment. Welcome to old.

sailnstink
05-04-2015, 11:57 AM
Not thinking old will keep you young. We stop being able to move, because we stopped moving. Recovering strength and mobility is possible. Stay (or get)skinny and never stop moving.

JimD
05-04-2015, 12:15 PM
Not thinking old will keep you young. We stop being able to move, because we stopped moving. Recovering strength and mobility is possible. Stay (or get)skinny and never stop moving. This is utter rubbish and exactly the kind of advice you don't need.

sailnstink
05-04-2015, 02:58 PM
Choose your own fate my friend. I choose to eat clean, move more, boat more. And excepting accidental death of course, l will boat longer and better then my peers who choose otherwise.

PeteCress
05-04-2015, 03:13 PM
Not thinking old will keep you young. We stop being able to move, because we stopped moving. Recovering strength and mobility is possible. Stay (or get)skinny and never stop moving.
Somebody once said "Pick an age you like and stick with it."

skuthorp
05-04-2015, 03:45 PM
The older one gets, the harder it is for one person to cartop, especially a boat that can carry two, and is fun to sail as well as paddle. All my current boats are trailer boats, although two of them could be easily be cartopped by two people, I find the need to go by myself drives me to trailering.

I also find that an important factor is setup and breakdown time, so I find myself drawn towards monohulls with unstayed rigs. The fewer tiddly bits the better. Something like a Goat Island Skiff pushes my buttons, but you would need to switch to a swing centerboard do meet your grounding at speed criteria.

In our society, one only is allowed to have one woman at a time, sometimes the best compromise is several boats.

Allan
(Thistle, Sunfish, and MacGregor sailing canoe)
It seems that you and I have similar fleets, (Australian Sailfish, MacGregor canoe, Sea kayak) and I do agree about the cartopping thing. Having just bought a new vehicle I'm thinking of building a side loader.
And JimD, 'septuagenarian' sounds so much older than 72 feels for me, but that's my parents legacy to me I guess.

JimD
05-04-2015, 03:55 PM
You going to choose your DNA, too? Not much else I'll say in the face of this kind of stupidity. Enjoy your eternal youth.

sailnstink
05-04-2015, 04:04 PM
Exercise changes your DNA. The fountain of youth is free and available to everyone.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
05-04-2015, 04:07 PM
International 2.4
http://www.sailingnetworks.com/images/photo/596702.jpg?1260122486

Hantu Laut
05-04-2015, 04:53 PM
And of course you should check out the great and varied small boat designs of John Welsford himself, many of which have large user communities.


"Old" is a very nebulous term. I was lucky enough to have designed an entry in the 1999 Mini Transat and the entrants sponsor flew me to the finish to "pit crew" the skipper and boat.
These are really extreme mini ocean racers, and remember that at the finish line in the Caribbean the boats had been single handed from France.
Two of the guys in the top 20 ( out of about 65) were over 70 years old, and were both planning to do the next event two years later.

John Welsford. Who will be 70 far too soon, and is not planning on slowing down until they put me in a box.

Thorne
05-04-2015, 04:56 PM
Have you considered something like a Bolger Old Shoe that has a deep cockpit and high sides for a backrest? Has to be trailer-launched and doesn't sail off a beach well, but is stable and comfy to operate from what I've heard.

sailoar
05-04-2015, 06:39 PM
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/p/295934/18218036/1371588174727/pd+kids.jpg?token=oq8XEhwoKeelvJuWKlLaOZFSCSY%3D


That's one happy tiller.

Binnacle Bat
05-04-2015, 06:41 PM
A couple of weeks ago I managed to capsize a Sunfish (bight of mainsheet fouled on lifejacket in mid tack, and I wasn't able to clear it in time. Not my boat, not my lifejacket.

At 66 years old, 225 lbs, and not very good shape, I was able to right her and reboard without difficulty. Admittedly a Sunfish is designed for that stuff, and but not real comfortable for a geezer to sail in all day. One the other hand the lounge chair type boats (H12.5 and variants) aren't trailerable, never mind car top-able.

For the moment, my senior boat will be a hot molded I-14 hull (c. 1950) with appropriate flotation and seats, and a Goat Island Skiff balanced lug rig. The hull is sort of a baby Thistle, and the balanced lug will provide the simplicity of a sunfish rig, but easily reefed. The Thistle is a blast on the water, and I can single hand her in any reasonable conditions, but it's an hour at the ramp to rig and launch, and another hour at the other end. I'm guessing the 14 will row much easier that the Thistle, and be almost as much fun to sail. Small enough for a geezer to haul above high tide with rollers on the Main Island Trail.

Allan

bamamick
05-04-2015, 07:23 PM
I had friends who raced Stars well into their 80's, and pretty much everyone I know kept going into their 70's, which kind of bothers me since my body has really begun breaking down at the age of 57.

My friend Louie Nady has to be in his late 70's now and Lou still races his Finn. I guess it's absolutely and individualistic sort of thing, but right now my mind is on a glassfibre cat boat with comfortable seats that's easy to launch and retrieve and get the mast up on. I have some racing boats and I always will, but I really, really just want that one nice boat that is easy to rig and sail as well as being fun once you are out there.

Mickey Lake

kenjamin
05-05-2015, 08:02 AM
Probably not fast enough for Pete, but I love the heck out of my SCAMP. It's small enough to right in the chance of a capsize, very easily trailored or pulled off a sand bar or wrestled out of mud (like last weekend at Cedar Key), nice large dry cockpit, growing community of SCAMPs being built, one-design racing and informal racing with no rules also available. It can be sailed, rowed or motored. You can even camp/cruise on it if you like. I built mine in case I get old but getting her to go faster than she should is a whole lot of unexpected fun. John Welsford was gracious enough to let me try out my experimental curvy mast on his hull design.

http://www.bodaciousboats.com/Gabrielle0601smallcredit.jpg

Don Z.
05-05-2015, 08:56 PM
International 2.4
http://www.sailingnetworks.com/images/photo/596702.jpg?1260122486

+ 1

Binnacle Bat
05-05-2015, 11:05 PM
+ 1

Fail

You cannot car-top it, you cannot reasonably trailer it, you cannot bring a friend. Stepping the mast and rigging will take an hour at least. You can't row or paddle it effectively in a calm, and it will never plane on a reach no matter how hard it blows. You can't beach it for a picnic.

If you have a mooring, an H 12 1/2 will be more comfortable, especially if you have company.

If you are going to trailer or car top, there are thousand boats better.

Allan

Ted Hoppe
05-06-2015, 01:18 AM
A catboat with an inboard --- A Marshall 22 would work for me. It is part of my bucket list to do the intercostal loop on one.

http://www.marshallcat.com/assets/images/Marshall-22--7-640.jpg

Don Z.
05-06-2015, 09:35 PM
Fail

You cannot car-top it, you cannot reasonably trailer it, you cannot bring a friend. Stepping the mast and rigging will take an hour at least. You can't row or paddle it effectively in a calm, and it will never plane on a reach no matter how hard it blows. You can't beach it for a picnic.

If you have a mooring, an H 12 1/2 will be more comfortable, especially if you have company.

If you are going to trailer or car top, there are thousand boats better.

Allan

Cannot reasonably trailer? The empty hull is light, and ballast is broken into smaller parts. And if you take an hour to rig it, you've probably stopped along the way and had a few beers.


Was beaching or planing in the original post? I must have missed that. I do remember "My "Musts" include submerged-obstacle surviveability and one of the strong "Wants" is transportability.", and considering it's use in the paralympics as well as the requirement to float while swamped, it seems to meet the "must".

"Not optimal", perhaps. "Fail" is a little harsh.

farwesthoops
05-07-2015, 03:14 PM
What an interesting thread. I am 73 and was most emphatically told last week by a woman of similar age who I did not know, that the correct terminology these days is to use "older" and never "old" in our conversations. I immediately shifted gears and went from being an old guy to simply being an older guy. Seemed to fit well enough and I liked the concept.

bamamick
05-07-2015, 03:36 PM
A catboat with an inboard --- A Marshall 22 would work for me. It is part of my bucket list to do the intercostal loop on one.

http://www.marshallcat.com/assets/images/Marshall-22--7-640.jpg

Maybe we could do it as a race? :)

Mickey Lake

PeteCress
05-07-2015, 03:46 PM
What an interesting thread. I am 73 and was most emphatically told last week by a woman of similar age who I did not know, that the correct terminology these days is to use "older" and never "old" in our conversations. I immediately shifted gears and went from being an old guy to simply being an older guy. Seemed to fit well enough and I liked the concept.
Then I am changing over from "Old" to "Older Than Dirt"....

Phil Y
05-07-2015, 04:09 PM
Old persons sailing vehicle? WTF? Old is meaningless. Physical capacity varies a lot. Vehicle? Seriously. Restate your question:)

CK 17
05-07-2015, 05:30 PM
I went ahead of you in the wrong direction. Now I want to down size.

There's a lot out there in the 19 foot range. I would think a c/b would take care of hitting things underwater. You'll want to pull behind a small car I'm guessing and be able to stand the mast up your self also. A small cutty and good drainage so it has the option of being left on a mooring.

My my father in law has a Boston whaler harpoon. Neat boat. He's 77 and handles it well.

A few years ago the wife and I started our sailboat search. I wanted small. We ended up with an oday 26 to get her "on board". It's a nice enough boat, but needs a crane to set up the mast and a big truck to pull it. I can't wait for the day when I can go back to my original plan. Can I use old age as an excuse? I'm 52.

Binnacle Bat
05-07-2015, 08:27 PM
Cannot reasonably trailer? The empty hull is light, and ballast is broken into smaller parts. And if you take an hour to rig it, you've probably stopped along the way and had a few beers.


Was beaching or planing in the original post? I must have missed that. I do remember "My "Musts" include submerged-obstacle surviveability and one of the strong "Wants" is transportability.", and considering it's use in the paralympics as well as the requirement to float while swamped, it seems to meet the "must".

"Not optimal", perhaps. "Fail" is a little harsh.


The first item on the original poster's "want list" was car-topable by one person, the second item was transportable up/down sandy beach by one person using beach wheels.

I don't see how a ballasted keel boat would come close to meeting either criteria.

As for trailering an I-2.4, I've been sailing a Thistle for 10 years or so, on a trailer with a very long tongue. Boat, with foils up, draws 8-9", but even then I have to wrestle the boat on and off the trailer at some ramps. I assume the I-2.4 draws more than two feet, and weighs more than a ton, so you'd need a 20' tongue extension or a crane to launch at my local lake.

Thistle takes me an hour to rig and launch, and another hour at the other end, and that is with only three stays, and a deck stepped mast.

Allan

CK 17
05-08-2015, 11:12 AM
That's what I get for not opening the link. Sounds like a sailing kayak will do. I think clc has a kit to convert. Even then, a kayak is not the easiest thing to get on and off the roof of a car. I suppose a kayak trailer can be pushed on the beach by hand. . .

upchurchmr
05-08-2015, 01:13 PM
Seems to me like the Trika 540 is ideal if you are considering a sailing kayak.
http://dixdesign.com/Trika_540.htm

Pretty much a cross between a sailing kayak and a canoe.
Cartoppable per the ad pictures.
Might be a little light on the sail area, but that could be fixed.
Claimed to be useable as a kayak.

http://dixdesign.com/trika_sailing01.jpg
http://dixdesign.com/trika08.jpg

If you think about the CLC adapting rig, they often are said to not tack well.
Bigger leeboard in the right place and a larger rudder would fix that.
A better sail would help also.
Personally I would want bigger amas but that would drive loads higher.

Woxbox
05-08-2015, 10:38 PM
I'm with the sailing tri-kayak thinking too. Be aware that in choppy water you can be in for a very wet ride, however.
For cartopping, they make pricey buy effective lift systems now. But there are also many DIY solutions to make loading easy. That part shouldn't be a concern.

PeterSibley
05-08-2015, 11:00 PM
That's one happy tiller.

It puts a smile on someone's face .;)

PeteCress
05-09-2015, 07:47 AM
I'm with the sailing tri-kayak thinking too. Be aware that in choppy water you can be in for a very wet ride, however.
For cartopping, they make pricey buy effective lift systems now. But there are also many DIY solutions to make loading easy. That part shouldn't be a concern.
Also, the car-toppable thing was a "Want", not a "Must".

Right now I am in trimaran/tri-kayak thinking mode with Hobie's Adventure Island (pre-2015) and Weta the contenders.

I should be able to try a Weta within a week or two. The Weta's not light - and cartopping is out of the question - but when Weta owners talk about zig-zagging downwind riding the chop, that gets my attention, being my preferred method of windsurfing.

OTOH, it would require a modification to the daggerboard....maybe a kick-back or something like the old Windsurfer "High-Wind" dag where it's shaped to ride up on something rather than impact it.

The Hobie has been dropping off my list because it looks like such a pig to paddle.... but then getting back on in the light of reality and this being an old person's boat.... and then there is the Mirage drive.

SchoonerRat
05-09-2015, 09:57 AM
Don't discount the AI because it "looks like a pig to paddle." It's not! The Mirage Drive pushes it effortlessly through the water.

If cartopping is only a want, take a serious look at the new model. I'd say the the original is a kayak that's been adapted to use a sailing rig. The new model is a sailing tri that can be stripped down to be used as a kayak. A number of improvements make the new model a much improved version of the original.

Cartopping can be made much easier with a mechanical assist.

http://www.thule.com/en-us/us/products/carriers-and-racks/water-sport-carriers/kayak-and-canoe-carriers/thule-hullavator-pro-898-_-1685448

PeteCress
05-09-2015, 10:43 AM
...take a serious look at the new model....A number of improvements...

Now I see that, among them, is a larger sail (6m vs 5.3...).

SchoonerRat
05-09-2015, 11:02 AM
Larger sail, longer reshaped hulls, improved Mirage Drive, GREATLY improved seat, lots of little details that just work better. Only one failing that we've found so far - the old main hull had a molded in handle on the rails that made it easier to roll it over. It's absent on the new model. And besides the new seat getting your butt out of the water, the new boat sails much drier and faster. Going to weather is greatly improved. The old boat often needed to be pedaled throught the eye of the wind.

PeteCress
05-09-2015, 11:28 AM
... the old main hull had a molded in handle on the rails that made it easier to roll it over.

Do you think that beach storage upside-down would be practical?

I'm thinking about getting it turned over just with the amas folded in.....

SchoonerRat
05-09-2015, 11:53 AM
You're not gonna want to try to turn it over with the amas attached, but assembly and dis-assembly takes just minutes with no tools. If you sail in salt water, you're going to need some fresh water to wash down at least the hardware after sailing. We use a jerry can and a small battery operated pump. Everything but the hulls comes home for a good washdown and added security. The boat is kept on a rack about 2 feet above the sand and is covered with a cover that's made for the AI. A small 4 wheel cart helps get the parts from the pickup to the boat and back again.

Monday should be the next sailing day. I'll try to get some pics of the new boat and the setup process. I have some pics of the old boat, but I didn't really concentrate showing it getting put it together.

PeteCress
05-28-2015, 09:30 PM
Cartopping can be made much easier with a mechanical assist.

http://www.thule.com/en-us/us/products/carriers-and-racks/water-sport-carriers/kayak-and-canoe-carriers/thule-hullavator-pro-898-_-1685448

I have a set of Hullavators arriving June 1st. Immediate use is to ease loading my surfski - which goes up on the racks easily in the morning, but (as of late...) not so easily after 6-7 miles of interval training.... Also, for windsurfers on high-wind days.

PeteCress
08-21-2015, 08:59 PM
Don't discount the AI because it "looks like a pig to paddle." It's not! The Mirage Drive pushes it effortlessly through the water.

If cartopping is only a want, take a serious look at the new model. I'd say the the original is a kayak that's been adapted to use a sailing rig. The new model is a sailing tri that can be stripped down to be used as a kayak. A number of improvements make the new model a much improved version of the original.

Cartopping can be made much easier with a mechanical assist.

http://www.thule.com/en-us/us/products/carriers-and-racks/water-sport-carriers/kayak-and-canoe-carriers/thule-hullavator-pro-898-_-1685448
Well, we are going to find out - hopefully next weekend - because I've got a 2015 AI in transit with delivery claimed for 8/25.....

I am not really expecting the Hullavators to do the job for this thing - the 88# test load I dummied up a couple weeks ago was quite a challenge - instead I am thinking a side-loader or t-loader if cartopping becomes a regular event. But if the Hullavators work... well, that's pure gravy....

I'm not religiously-opposed to a trailer either...it's just that I'm so cheap and the freeway tolls are so high.... OTOH, I don't want my survivors to have too much fun....

Also, I find driving effort goes up when I am towing, although that may be mitigated by experience.

Eric Hvalsoe
08-21-2015, 09:33 PM
I am still sniffing around: looking for something that will let me eke out a few more years on the water once windsurfing and surf-ski paddling become impractical.

I am guessing/hoping that a few WoodenBoat contributors have been here before me.

My "Musts" include submerged-obstacle surviveability and one of the strong "Wants" is transportability.

Current requirements (with apologies to Messrs Kepner and Tregoe): http://tinyurl.com/kt46oj8
(They call this a decision-making tool, but I would call it more of a communication device: you throw all your requirements, weights, and numbers up there and now everything is up front for people to see, dispute, and enhance).

(http://tinyurl.com/papwd7u)
WETA = A small trimaran from New Zealand as per http://www.wetamarine.com/the-boat/

P5 = A bi-directional, stich-and-glue proa as per http://tinyurl.com/mp6ab22 and http://tinyurl.com/oshujnd

2014 or Earlier AI = Hobie Adventure Island canoe-trimaran before they made it heavier: http://www.hobiecat.com/mirage/mirage-adventure-island/

CanoeTri = Canoe-trimaran optimized for moderate air as per http://canoetri.com/canoetri.html



The current version notwithstanding, I do not consider WETA to be out of the running because of the possibility of fitting a rotating daggerboard - like the Hobie Adventure Island uses.

Computed scores, of course, grow out of Weights assigned to "Wants" and the Values (now well the prospective solution fulfills the "Want") assigned.

Can anybody add some more "Musts" or "Wants"?

Suggestions for changing the Weights and/or Values of "Wants"?

Advice from those who have gone ahead of me?

You want continuing physical and mental challenge on the water - does that include salt water? Cruising?
Sail and oar. Seriously.

Canoez
08-21-2015, 10:01 PM
"Old" is a very nebulous term.

John Welsford. Who will be 70 far too soon, and is not planning on slowing down until they put me in a box.

Good on ya! My 84 year old father went up to the WoodenBoat School after some prodding from me and took Rollin Thurlow's cedar and canvas canoe building class and had a ball. He's looking forward to another class.

john welsford
08-21-2015, 11:31 PM
A friend of mine, someone whom a year ago you'd have thought would be unable to climb three stairs, and you'd have been close to right, has bought a SCAMP. She is 71, wants to learn to sail, has changed the way she eats, is exersizing heaps, and has a knee job scheduled. She'll make it, she may need some help but she'll make it.
The difference was that she decided that by hell she was going to do it.

Jim D, I don't know your physical circumstances, but I do hope that you find something that will suit.

John Welsford



And of course you should check out the great and varied small boat designs of John Welsford himself, many of which have large user communities.

Chip-skiff
08-22-2015, 02:39 PM
International 2.4
http://www.sailingnetworks.com/images/photo/596702.jpg?1260122486

I sailed these in Auckland- they're great fun, fast and responsive. A mate was with Sailability NZ and their fleet was set up with hand controls for disabled sailors, some of whom had developed into crack match racers. They certainly whipped me.

The hull is a scaled-down 12-meter design, with a ballast keel very stable. The seating position puts most of your body weight below the waterline. I was happy in one for a couple hours before the single seating position and lack of movement got to me. They can be trailered, but the relatively deep keel makes a developed ramp or a lift necessary. While sailing alone would be fun, having a small fleet in the area, with chances to race, would be a better situation.

sailnstink
08-23-2015, 06:36 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/mens-health/11784880/Meet-Charles-Eugster-Britains-fastest-nonagenarian.html

Dave Wright
08-24-2015, 05:45 PM
Not thinking old will keep you young. We stop being able to move, because we stopped moving. Recovering strength and mobility is possible. Stay (or get)skinny and never stop moving.


This is utter rubbish and exactly the kind of advice you don't need.

I'm 68, 5'-9", 162 pounds, building another boat, I walk the dog three miles a day, never ever miss because the dog expects it, I dig ditches when water leaks necessitate it, I crawl under cars, this weekend a friend called with an emergency roofing problem and we took care of some rotting structure and installed a new roof deck (heavy 3/4 inch ply). But I stopped crewing (sailing) last year, just too much pain afterwards. I can tell you this: no matter who you are, the pain will stop you moving eventually, unless you die before you feel it. Anyone who says never stop moving simply hasn't experienced the pain that is possible and quite common, and makes movement intolerable... I keep moving while I can, but I KNOW that human bodies wear out, develop defects, and there is no limit to the pain possible.

JimD is absolutely correct.

sailnstink
08-24-2015, 05:53 PM
Cut the alcohol, and carbs, lift heavy(slow getting started) and your joints will work as long as you need them.

PeteCress
08-24-2015, 06:26 PM
The boat is kept on a rack about 2 feet above the sand and is covered with a cover that's made for the AI. A small 4 wheel cart helps get the parts from the pickup to the boat and back again.

Monday should be the next sailing day. I'll try to get some pics of the new boat and the setup process. I have some pics of the old boat, but I didn't really concentrate showing it getting put it together.I would be interested in seeing the above-sand storage setup.

The 2015 AI sb arriving tomorrow.

gilberj
08-24-2015, 06:32 PM
62 next month....I figure to keep moving till it hurts. So far I am not much diminished from being 50. I sail ..... single handed mainly. I went kayaking yesterday with my Daughter and her Husband for 6 hours, got a sore butt. These last few months I have put up about 1000 bales of hay, cleaned out the barn ~100 tons of sh1t bound up with rotting hay. This last with the aid of a tractor, but still a big investment in personal physical work, and the job is not quite finished. When we start getting some rain, I'll cut some wood for the winter, ( it is too dry right now to go into the woods right now).
I do get this idea of an older guys boat....I have spent time thinking on it, because that day will come. One of the questions for me is what will be my use at that time. I often cruise in the winter....sort of adventure cruising, more wind, more weather, not quite so many demands at home. Will I want to cruise like that? The boat for that might be something like a Paradox. Or will I mainly want to do less strenuous boating.
Almost certainly I am expecting to moor the boat in the back yard and trailer-sail, so it will be easy to rig, and relatively low tech. If it is much work, either in a physical way or time, I just won't get out as often. Scamp or one of the other rowing-sailors intrigue me. I am more interested in sailing than rowing, though I like rowing so less than stellar rowing performance is ok, And perhaps a motor will be part of the package.
This down sizing may be a two or more stage process.

SchoonerRat
08-24-2015, 06:57 PM
I would be interested in seeing the above-sand storage setup.

The only pics I have are of the old AI. The main hull is under the cover. The uncovered hull is an ocean going kayak that my buddy's wife forced the sale of before allowing purchase of the new boat. The amas are now kept on the rack along with the main hull instead of being transported in the pickup.

http://schoonerrat.com/wbf/rack1.JPG

The top story of the rack may look like it's collapsing. That's only cuz it did. I underestimated forces involved in an old man getting the boat up there alone. The rack has since been rebuilt.

http://schoonerrat.com/wbf/rack2.JPG

Frost
08-24-2015, 07:29 PM
Cut the alcohol, and carbs, lift heavy(slow getting started) and your joints will work as long as you need them.
You really need to stop saying these things. Either you're blessed with good genes or you're not old enough. There are many of us that exercise and live/ eat well and still feel the need to be safer and and a bit more stable when on the foredeck. I bicycle now for exercise as its low impact. I've done 2 century rides this summer and ride about 150 miles weekly. I do weights a few times a week. I have severe spinal stenosis which puts a real dent in my mobility and it is genetic. Carbs and alcohol have nothing to do with it. I'm guessing that most of us are trying to balance ageing, lifestyle, genetics, and being active. Quit judging those you don't even know. FWIW, I'm finding this thread informative and pertinant.

PeteCress
08-25-2015, 10:23 AM
The only pics I have are of the old AI. The main hull is under the cover. The uncovered hull is an ocean going kayak that my buddy's wife forced the sale of before allowing purchase of the new boat. The amas are now kept on the rack along with the main hull instead of being transported in the pickup.

http://schoonerrat.com/wbf/rack1.JPG

Thanks - that is instructive in that it answered my question of whether the gunwales take support at only two points without deforming or not.

Looks like they will - and in the heat of Florida (?) no less.

That is how I have stored a series of fiberglass kayaks and surf skis, but polyethelene is new to me.

SchoonerRat
08-25-2015, 11:10 AM
Thanks - that is instructive in that it answered my question of whether the gunwales take support at only two points without deforming or not.

Looks like they will - and in the heat of Florida (?) no less.

That is how I have stored a series of fiberglass kayaks and surf skis, but polyethelene is new to me.

Here in SoCal we approach the heat of Florida. 100+ days are rare, but we do get some. I've never seen a poly boat deform in storage like this. The problem never even crossed my mind when I built the rack. Polyethylene is tough stuff; heavy but tough. The only damage we get is from dragging the hull over some sharp rocks that are exposed at LOW tide. Nothing more than minor cosmetics.

BTW, congrats on the purchase. I predict that loads of fun will ensue. Much frustration can be avoided if you have a Hobie dealer to help you with the first setup. Mind your fingers when installing the seat! Our dealer learned that lesson on my buddy's boat. He's been a friend for over 4 decades so the strongest of his language was directed at Hobie, not at us. Also, when installing the akas, be certain that they are fully inserted and locked. Try to remove them without pressing the release button to test.

PeteCress
08-25-2015, 11:25 AM
Much frustration can be avoided if you have a Hobie dealer to help you with the first setup.That's not going to happen, but I am pretty sure there are vids out there that take one through setup. I am expecting hours of amusement.... -)

More amusement when I get down to mods..... at least weeks, if not months...

SchoonerRat
08-25-2015, 11:46 AM
That's not going to happen, but I am pretty sure there are vids out there that take one through setup. I am expecting hours of amusement.... -)

More amusement when I get down to mods..... at least weeks, if not months...

YouTube is loaded with AI vids. They'll help a lot but nothing will replace the immediate feedback of Q and A with somebody that knows. You'll probably need to view several vids to get all the answers you want.

WARNING! Don't get so caught up with watching that you don't get out sailing.

oznabrag
09-04-2015, 12:51 PM
Cut the alcohol, and carbs, lift heavy(slow getting started) and your joints will work as long as you need them.

Right.

That may be true for some people.

Then the Rheumatoid Arthritis, or any number of other maladies hits, and you need help to go pee.

I hope it works out for you.

PeteCress
09-04-2015, 01:30 PM
... Also, when installing the akas, be certain that they are fully inserted and locked. Try to remove them without pressing the release button to test.I'm building a pre-launch checklist.

So Far:


After inserting each aka, yank *hard* on it to
confirm that the locking clips are engaged.


After inserting the Mirage Drive, ensure that
the leash is attached to the boat.


Check port ama drain plug


Check starboard ama drain plug


Check vaka drain plug


Verify fore hatch closed


Verify aft hatch closed

Ted Hoppe
09-04-2015, 02:37 PM
A catboat with an inboard --- A Marshall 22 would work for me. It is part of my bucket list to do the intercostal loop on one.

http://www.marshallcat.com/assets/images/Marshall-22--7-640.jpg

I still think this is the boat of choice for practical use and storage. Really any more than this is wishful thinking for those who aren't going to cruise the world. A 22 foot side tie means that she is ready in a moment without tidal issues, complex rigging a lower fees. For less than 500 dollars you can have a new main. Most come with a trailer. a decent SUV can pull it. a cockpit to sit enough friends once dockside.

SchoonerRat
09-04-2015, 04:50 PM
I'm building a pre-launch checklist.

So Far:


After inserting each aka, yank *hard* on it to
confirm that the locking clips are engaged.


After inserting the Mirage Drive, ensure that
the leash is attached to the boat.


Check port ama drain plug


Check starboard ama drain plug


Check vaka drain plug


Verify fore hatch closed


Verify aft hatch closed



Regarding #2 - The leash I referred to is on the seat. If the hull is upside down, the seat will just fall out. It doesn't float and it's several hundred dollars to replace. This is less of a problem if you only operate in trimaran mode. The Mirage Drive gets locked solidly in place. I'm pretty sure that there's no factory supplied leash for it.

Have you taken delivery yet? When do you get it wet?

Bon Voyage!

Chipsahoy
10-12-2015, 10:29 PM
I am absolutely new to sailing, and boat building, but I can feel myself catching the "bug". The war dept. and I visited Toledo, Or. last month during the wooden boat show and we saw some impressive stuff. We were camping near by, and returned a few days after the show/fair was over. We went back down to the dock as some of the vessels were still there. Then we saw a small horde of children... sailing.. little boats.. from somewhere,back to this dock. They were followed and herded by and instructor in a separate boat shouting an occasional instruction/reprimand. When they reached the dock, one by one, they cleaned, broke down and stored their vessels by themselves. I am impressed!! I've owned power boats before, in a time of my life when faster seemed more important, but I'm becoming more and more interested in the finer things.
We spent a day on the NPS sailing vessel "Alma" and assisted in hoisting some sails (Pretty touristy, kinda like the Kodak Show on Hawaii) but started/assisted in the infection. When we returned home, we both began sailing lessons and completed our first "class" last Saturday.
Can someone recommend a book, that will help us understand basic nomenclature, principals, and different designs, sail configurations etc. Not too complex please just yet, but a touch more technical and adult than "Sailing for Dummies"? A good starting point. In American English. Reasonably priced. I do intend to build a small vessel someday soon, but I do not intend (as of yet) to design anything.

We are in our early 60's, retired and intend to stay active.
My apologies if this is hi-jacking this thread, but it kinda-sorta seems to fit, and while not in the doldrums, has had no additions for a month.

Thx Scotty

Wooden Boat Fittings
10-12-2015, 11:17 PM
Any number....

Peter Heaton, 'Sailing'
E F Knight, 'Sailing', 'Small Boat Sailing'
Maurice Griffiths, 'Sailing'
Tyrell Lewis, 'Teach Yourself Sailing'
Percy Woodcock, 'Sailing for the Novice'
and no doubt a dozen others.

Then later you can graduate to books on seamanship. :)

Have fun.

Mike

Michael D. Storey
10-13-2015, 09:51 AM
Fail

You cannot car-top it, you cannot reasonably trailer it, you cannot bring a friend. Stepping the mast and rigging will take an hour at least. You can't row or paddle it effectively in a calm, and it will never plane on a reach no matter how hard it blows. You can't beach it for a picnic.

If you have a mooring, an H 12 1/2 will be more comfortable, especially if you have company.

If you are going to trailer or car top, there are thousand boats better.

AllanIf you were in a wheel chair, and you would rather sail than walk, no tellin what you would do to get one.

peb
10-13-2015, 10:40 AM
Well, we are going to find out - hopefully next weekend - because I've got a 2015 AI in transit with delivery claimed for 8/25.....

I am not really expecting the Hullavators to do the job for this thing - the 88# test load I dummied up a couple weeks ago was quite a challenge - instead I am thinking a side-loader or t-loader if cartopping becomes a regular event. But if the Hullavators work... well, that's pure gravy....

I'm not religiously-opposed to a trailer either...it's just that I'm so cheap and the freeway tolls are so high.... OTOH, I don't want my survivors to have too much fun....

Also, I find driving effort goes up when I am towing, although that may be mitigated by experience.

I would really like to hear an update of your Hobie AI tri. How do you like it? I think the AI and the Tandem Islander are two of the most sensible production boats/PWC out on the market today. But I have not sailed on one yet. So I would like to know how it handles.

I have heard that on the old ones, you pretty much had to paddle through tacks. I would believe this, as jib-less catamarans can be a pain to make it though a tack. With the Hobe paddle drive, it wouldn't be any big deal, except as a sailor you would always feel like a utter failure. Is it better with the larger sail area?

Jay Greer
10-13-2015, 11:58 AM
Here is a boat that was specifically designed for inconvenienced or senior sailors. The boat is the Twitchel 12 and is a godsend to inconvenienced persons who want to race or just cruise a little sailboat up and down the bay. Chad Twitchel, a world class sailor still at age 82 came up with this amazingly maneuverable but stable design. Chad and Ron Holder are the co-designers and the well known Shock boat company of Newport Beach CA builds this spiffy little boat. The helm is basically a joy stick and the helmsman faces forward on a bench seat. The jib is self tacking and the little dinghy is quick in stays and a pleasure to sail.
Jay

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-19/news/vw-2603_1_14-foot-boat
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4431

PeteCress
10-14-2015, 08:43 AM
I would really like to hear an update of your Hobie AI tri. How do you like it? ...would like to know how it handles.

I have heard that on the old ones, you pretty much had to paddle through tacks.

I would say that it handles well on all points of sail but does not pinch that well...... OTOH, if I am racing somebody in a monohull in moderate air - that would otherwise smoke me - I can beat them to windward just by heading directly into the wind in the lulls and pedaling hard.....

There were a few times when it took on some lee helm - but I am thinking that's a matter of me needing to learn how to play the daggarboard on various tacks.

It seems to me like the sailing capability of this thing is about on a par with a Sunfish - although my experience comparing the two has only been in light-to-moderate air...... But it has the advantage over a Sunfish in tolerating submerged obstacles like crab traps and sand bars - maybe somewhat diminished by the prospect of hitting a Mirage Drive flipper.... but without the Mirage Drive it seems pretty much bulletproof in that respect...... With the Mirage Drive, I think the boat wouldn't be going that fast anyhow and my experience so far has been that while pedaling the flippers are not fully-extended for more than a moment at a time and when one stops pedaling they are folded up against the hull...so it's about as obstacle-tolerant as is possible- with the possible exception of breakaway flippers.

In wind under a certain speed I usually pedal through tacks because I'm pedaling most of the time anyhow - although those times when I do not pedal, it comes around with no problem (that's under a certain wind speed).

One of the attractions of the AI for me the opportunity to pedal and not just sit on my butt doing nothing for hours at a time.

When the wind is above a certain speed the Mirage Drive is, IMHO, best stored in the fore hatch..... With that kind of wind sometimes I make it around, other times I either back through the tack or use the single-bladed paddle I always have within easy reach.

I would opine that "sailing" an AI is not really sailing in the strictest sense of the word.

It's more a thing of it's own - call it "Pedal-Sailing"..... and forget about paddling, it's been optimized for sailing at the expense of paddle-ability.

Also, this is clearly not a "Motion Sport" vehicle like a windsurfer, Hobie 14, Hobie 16, or Weta..... recognize that, embrace it, and you'll be ahead of the game....I have had my share of pleasurable hours just noodling along in kayaks that aren't good for more than 5 mph....it's a matter of setting expectations - and I am working on that... -)

Finally, this thing is *heavy*.... I weighed each part on a balance scale and they summed up to 190# - which means an easy 200# plus sailing weight with a water bottle, throw cushion, paddles, and so-forth...... Plenty of people seem to be cartopping them and that was my initial fantasy - but after getting it up on the roof racks 3 times I decided that, for me, it was a bad idea and bought a trailer..... Also, with salt-water use, there seems to be an issue of rusting out the vehicle's roof as salt water inevitably drips from the hull.

I am still working out the best way to beach it in a strong onshore wind as per: https://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=56210..... It's so heavy that I have trouble dragging it backwards up the beach far enough so it doesn't want to spin around in the wind and wind up broadside to the ebb-and-flow of the waves..... If it turns out that polyethelene can stand up to being sailed balls-to-the-wall at the beach and the momentum is enough to get it far enough up on the sand, I'm home free.... otherwise I'm still trying to resolve that issue.

On my personal "FeelGood" scale, windsurfing was 9-10, paddling my surf ski was 7-8, and I initally rated pedal-sailing the AI at 1-2.

After getting it out in decent (20-25 mph) wind, however, I upgraded it to 3-4. Ref: https://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=56200

Bottom line: at this point the AI seems to be a "Keeper"....

peb
10-14-2015, 10:30 AM
Pete, thanks for the update and the links to the other forum. Really appreciated. The problems with using the boat in a surf off a beach had me a little surprised, as it contradicted the salesperson I had talked to.

slug
10-14-2015, 10:33 AM
Old age boats should be simple...fast setup, low maintenance , easy to use.

Since old guys have vast experience on the water the design should be elegant , deliberate, purposeful....no fluff.

PeteCress
10-14-2015, 12:30 PM
Pete, thanks for the update and the links to the other forum. Really appreciated. The problems with using the boat in a surf off a beach had me a little surprised, as it contradicted the salesperson I had talked to.
You should Google that one a little..... It does not seem to be black-and-white.... more like something that reasonable people can differ on..... also there is a vast range of "Surf" conditions....

My issue is not with "Surf".... just with getting it far enough up on bayside sand so it doesn't want to flip around sideways to the wind.

One more item on my list is storage.

It seems to me like the only long-term storage that Hobie approves of is inverted, resting on the gunwales..... even their proprietary cradles come with a caveat.

That being said, a lot of users seem to be carrying/storing their AIs and TIs right-side up and it is really calling out to me..... less than 5 minutes from trailer to sailing instead of the 20-25 that I am experiencing now.

"Bunks" seem to be the usual DIY solution.

Lugalong
10-14-2015, 06:31 PM
Coming here to this forum was about wooden boats, I thought, and the way older people were managing made this thread interesting. But surprise!.... this promotion of plastic toys seems out of character……perhaps you were hoping to be shown a wooden craft with pedal/sail propulsion, hey Pete.

At least a wooden paddleboard keeps true to a living material, and since it has not yet been mentioned…….if anyone is able to maintain mobility, there is probably no better way to keep in shape as well as be out on the water, than on a paddleboard.

Using all the muscles involved (nearly every one in the body) goes with the ‘use em or lose em’ philosophy.

If putting a sail on the board is not enough, then having another craft for real sailing is unavoidable…….preferably one that can carry the paddleboard.

I’m opting for a 30 footer that I can still manage loading and launching on my own in my early 60’s and having buggered rotator cuffs……oh yea, the SUP doesn’t negatively effect bad shoulder joints when paddling like a kayak does.

Definitely can’t say that DNA has favored me in any way, but doing things like surfing certainly have helped me more than sedentary activities…..even though these other activities have at least payed more than the excessive hours work with toxic solvents and silica.
-Jeremy

Woxbox
10-14-2015, 08:31 PM
This thread has some legs. I suggested about 5 months ago, along with others, the small tri, but I'm starting to think differently.

I was at the Annapolis sailboat show last weekend, and sitting on the tarmac not too far from each other was a Weta and a Scamp (The Gig Harbor glass version.) If I'd had to pick one without looking at them up close, I would have gone with the Weta immediately. But up close and personal, I found the Scamp far more appealing. (And this from one who is on his third multihull.)

Summary:

Weta - fast, but the skipper is always in an open, exposed location. Plus, there's no where to stash all your stuff. I can't really see spending even one night on one. (Not that it couldn't be done.) Really, another type of beach cat. Great for one-design racing and summer jaunts, but not much beyond that.

Scamp - slow, but the skipper is in a deep, wide cockpit with lots of place to stash all the stuff he could possibly want. Plus a cockpit tent would turn it into a cozy cabin for a night or two. Here's a boat that's good until the water freezes over. Also, it can be rowed short distances if you really don't want an outboard. (I think I'd make do with a little electric.)

I must be getting older too?

Thorne
10-15-2015, 11:02 AM
I was interested in Andy Linn's report from the Stockton Lake Messabout, with photos of Bob's Seaclipper 10 "Tri Again" designed for the handicapped sailor. Don't think I'd like being stuck in a single sitting position, but it looks easy to manage from the cockpit.

http://andrewlinn.com/2015/151012_stockton/60lesson.JPG

http://andrewlinn.com/2015/151012_stockton/59tricockpit.JPG


http://andrewlinn.com/2015/151012_stockton/30tripea.JPG

gilberj
10-15-2015, 11:41 AM
An older persons boat has almost as many possibilities as any other boat.
1- budget....how much money is available
2- health and fitness....including agility
3- geography.....where are you sailing ....what are the normal conditions, Relatively smooth/sheltered or relatively bigger water/exposed, normally modest winds or more brisk winds

I had a friend for years in the same marina that continued to spend his summers living aboard, up to his late 80's. In the last few years it took him perhaps 25 minutes to get to the boat because he moved very slowly and stopped frequently. On board he had his much younger wife and a skipper and one crew to handle to boat...a 50 odd foot plastic monstrosity. But the again John had lots of money.
I also remember seeing Bill Garden in his later years sailing his "Tom Cat" with a pretty young woman to take care of him, and do most of the work.
The Cat boat shown in post 30 is great as a stable platform, comfortable and easy to move around in. If the older person is a little delicate, then hoisting the sail may be a bit of a job.
The little trimaran and catamarans may be very good for sailing but a little difficult to get into, requiring agility.
Kayaks and canoes often suffer in this regard. Kayaks with small cockpits are particularly hard to get into in less than ideal conditions, though Double Paddle Canoes being more open are less difficult to board, but are a little less seaworthy. I note L Frances Herreshoff continued to paddle till near the end of his life.
I think Scamp would be very good, Steady enough that a person with reduced abilities could still operate everything by themselves.

upchurchmr
10-15-2015, 06:39 PM
Thorne,

I was always interested in the Seaclipper.
My conclusion was it would be a "nice" boat, but I might as well have a 16 set up the same way.

signalcharlie
10-17-2015, 07:32 AM
Sounds like you need a 22 foot Chris Craft Utility....But really, those are all cool boats. I would eliminate car topping or reduce the "Wants" weight, too much chance for something to go wrong with a body part/car/boat interface as we age. But if you keep it, then something that breaks down into smaller chunks would be better.

You didn't factor in set or take down time, maybe not an issue? Or parts availability, I'd say it was a must to make sure parts were available.

As for aging, we use it or lose it. Sounds like you are on the right track. Our buddy Murray is in his mid 70s and his boat stash includes a trailered MacGregor 26, a trailered Venture 21, a 16 foot Sears double ender canoe with lug sail rig, a Sunfish, a Viper, 2 kayaks and an O'Day Widgeon. He uses the Widgeon and the kayaks the most, recently sailing in the Florida 120 and Mississippi 110.

Murray's similar-age neighbor Fred has row/sailed over 1200 miles in his Madisonville award winning Penobscot 14.

Check out Webb Chiles, in his 70s and currently out on his 7th circumnavigation, one of which he did mostly in a 19 foot Drascombe Lugger. Lots of good ideas on adapting with one good eye, 1 1/2 arms, etc: http://self-portraitinthepresentseajournal.blogspot.com/

(http://self-portraitinthepresentseajournal.blogspot.com/)

PeteCress
11-14-2015, 11:20 AM
This thread has some legs.
FWIW, I went with Hobie's Adventure Island: https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/AI#6195271011817870194

Compared to the Weta:



It's slow as death - but the Mirage Drive offers purposeful leg movement and I like that better than sitting on my butt for hours at a time.....

No wind, Mirage Drive only: 4.5-4.8 mph. 5.5 in a sprint.
Light air (8-10) with sail and Mirage Drive: 5-6+ mph.
Heavy air, no Mirage Drive, plenty of 8 some high nines-to-occasional-low tens...

The .GPX rendering app I use reported 13+ max speed yesterday.
.
I know for a fact that I can do a deep-water remount..... Couldn't figure out how to do that in the short time I had access to a Weta.... Doesn't mean it can't be done by Yours Truly - only that I had not worked out how to do it.
.
It deals gracefully with underwater obstacles and the Weta does not.
.
On the Weta, there's no place to hide if serious wind comes up. OTOH, real Weta sailors seem to thrive on heavy air.... but I'm not a real sailor... just an old guy whose bod is failing.... so I like the AI's roller reefing capability..... Had it out yesterday when it was gusting over 30 and there was no problem..... A few inches of reef tames it right down..... I'm not saying it's particularly fun above 25.... but it's not what I would call survival sailing..... perfectly manageable..... Only loose end is dealing with falling out of the boat at speed..... I am pretty sure Weta would round up or pitch-pole but I am also pretty sure that the AI will become what surfski paddlers call "A Blow Away".... Had a little bit of a chance to test that on Thursday in 25 MPH gusts: I was walking it in to the beach backwards and managed to stumble and fall..... grabbed an ama, but at that moment, the roller furling line managed to un-cleat itself and I wound up with full sail close-hauled in a cross-onshore wind..... lost contact with the boat and I'm not sure I would have wanted to be tethered to it either..... finally chased it down in some tall grass about a tenth of a mile down the beach.
.
On a Weta you can stand up and (more-or-less) walk around... well, at least stand up... that is not going to happen on the AI.



My Fun Factor ratings are: (on a scale of 1-10)

Windsurfing: 9-10
Surf Ski Paddling: 8-9
Cycling 7-8

First few times out I was giving this thing a 1-2, but now I have upgraded it to 3-4.... and it may yet improve..... I think it is partially a matter of managing one's expectations and partially learning to appreciate something new and different for what it is and not for what one wishes it were.


My biggest gripes with the AI are weight and hull speed:



This thing is *heavy*..... Main hull 106#, sailing weight 250#... I strongly suspect that I would like it a lot more if they had chosen the Revolution's hull as their new main hull instead of redesigning it into the monster they did......
.
If anybody has plans for cartopping a 2015 AI, don't count on it. You may be able to - plenty of people seem to be doing it, and I got it up there 3 times, 3 different ways but it was scary every time.... Have a trailer in your backup plan.
.
Compared to the Revo, the hull speed is at least 1 or 1.5 mph slower - maybe more. ....It really cannot be paddled realistically and under the Mirage Drive it's a lot slower..... A guy at the local lake pedals his Revo and if I have to catch him from a mile or so away on my surfski I'm about ready for the ER by the time I catch up...He seems to be cruising at 6.3-6.5 mph and I have followed him in sprints at 7.5....... OTOH, I can do several miles back-to-back at 6.1-6.3 on the ski - but the the AI with Mirage Drive and no amas is only good for low-to-mid fives.... less, as mentioned above, with amas....



Finally, I'm jonesing for the first aftermarket sails to appear. Stock sail is 6 meters and it really needs another square meter or meter-and-a-half of sail - especially in the context of roller reefing..... Based on windsurfing experience, I am pretty sure that at least another meter can be fit on the existing mast.... it's just a matter of somebody who knows what they are doing making the investment.

upchurchmr
11-14-2015, 02:30 PM
I really appreciate you continuing with the in depth reporting.
I've always wondered about the Adventure Island, but the two thing you report were assumed negatives.

Weight, speed or lack there of.

Thanks and keep it up.

PeteCress
01-15-2016, 12:32 PM
I've always wondered about the Adventure Island, but the two thing you report were assumed negatives.On the vanishingly-small chance that anybody cares....

Here's a screen snap of my current "Pros and Cons" list: https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/AI#6240083156685886754

FWIW, I have recently discovered SmallTrimarans.com.... And I suspect that most of my functional mismatches could be resolved by a replacing the vaka with something lighter/faster.

Woxbox
01-15-2016, 12:43 PM
Pete -- I'm still watching. And yes, the lighter and skinnier the hulls, the faster you'll go. I think the bigger tradeoff is deciding how dry you need to be, or how wet you're willing to get. If you optimize a small trimaran for performance, you tend to get a wet ride in any kind of a sea, or even cutting across a boat wake.

upchurchmr
01-15-2016, 01:47 PM
Pete,

I bet people are still watching the thread.

If you're reading in small trimarans has really gotten you thinking about a slimmer Vaka, you might look back at the Trika 540. There are people installing the Mirage drive in other boats, the main hull is 27". The sail area there is 85 sq ft instead of 65, and I believe a main with a boom will be more controllable reaching and running.

I'm not sure how you are realistically going to get lower freeboard.

You could always go for a 24" wide kayak from CLC as was mentioned before - or narrower. You might want to convert to a more open cockpit - most of the boats are sit-in.

Please keep this going with your ideas. I'm looking at the W-17 trimaran for about the 10th time. It's about what I want except for the flat sided design.
I'd like to see options you are considering.

PeteCress
01-15-2016, 07:06 PM
I think the bigger tradeoff is deciding how dry you need to be, or how wet you're willing to get. If you optimize a small trimaran for performance, you tend to get a wet ride in any kind of a sea, or even cutting across a boat wake.The consensus among AI users who have moved from the older version to the newer one is approval of the higher seating position and generally dryer ride.

As a surf ski paddler - and one who tries to dress for immersion at all times - I do not place any importance on a dry ride.... in fact, I prefer being in the interface, so-to-speak........ Especially when the water is colder because a wet ride reduces the temptation to under-dress in order to reduce sweating and increase comfort while not immersed.

Although I do have to grant that the mid-forties (F) water that I was taking in the face on Sunday in 25-30 mph winds *was* starting to get a little old... -)

But that's what spray skirts are for.

PeteCress
01-15-2016, 07:09 PM
I'm looking at the W-17 trimaran for about the 10th time. It's about what I want except for the flat sided design.
I'd like to see options you are considering.I have spoken with two former W-17 owners who moved on to other boats because the W-17 was too heavy for realistic beach use.

OTOH, I have watched them being used as the backbone of a rental fleet at a local lake for quite a few years and they seem to be both seriously durable and foolproof.

What has been your take on the Weta ? (besides the cost.....)

upchurchmr
01-16-2016, 11:50 AM
Peter,

You might be thinking about the WR-17 built from rotamolded plastic. It also has no centerboard/ daggerboard, just a bizzare bulge on the bottom. I believe it is a consequence of the manufacturing method.

The W-17 is a plywood stitch and glue boat. As designed probably also too heavy, but I believe it would sail better.
http://www.smalltridesign.com/W17/w17images/clicking.jpg

With your discussion about making a new Vaka, I was really suggesting the Trika 540.
http://www.dixdesign.com/Trika_540.htm

http://www.dixdesign.com/trika08.jpg

Now if you are going to say spray immersion is ok and fun, you probably need something more kayak like. I've thought about that a little bit, which is why I was interested in your thoughts. :D

The Weta looks like a nice boat. I would prefer something longer and cheaper - I know I'm unreasonable - but that is why I am thinking about homebuilding. I have a selection of rigs - a Hobie 16 or a Tornado. So the investment is a bit less with my situation.

keyhavenpotterer
01-16-2016, 01:42 PM
At first glance you would not think of the new B&B sailing canoe as an old person's dailing vehicle

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CxVQUvlFcxY/VjYf5b2T80I/AAAAAAAAPr8/OyYEuwY15Dg/s912-Ic42/sailing3.jpg

However, there are two ways she might be.

One could be using her as a lightweight central main hull. She is certainly light enough and there is a mention of using hobie drive with her.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cmmFZv1kTIY/VnV_4KPKk7I/AAAAAAAAP80/xgsHmG_z6ZU/s912-Ic42/20151111_084054.jpg

The other way, would be to use a smaller rig, current rig is 70sq ft, or larger outrigger floats more like the AI. The hull looks very sweet and very quick.

First introduction and spec http://www.sailnaway.blogspot.co.uk/p/b-expedition-canoe.html

Latest Build blog http://www.sailnaway.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/coming-along-nicely.html

Build pictures https://picasaweb.google.com/107469640725598007206/BBUFCCanoe?authkey=Gv1sRgCIOsp-T16eSKxwE

Brian

PeteCress
01-16-2016, 04:04 PM
You might be thinking about the WR-17 built from rotamolded plastic. It also has no centerboard/ daggerboard, just a bizzare bulge on the bottom.Yes.... I took "WR-" to stand for WindRider... My bad.

PeteCress
03-12-2017, 08:13 PM
...you will need something that accomodates a physically deteriorated body. ... you need the foresight to build a boat that you don't yet need....Well, it's almost the beginning of my third season on the AI and your observation has, of course, been shown to be accurate.

I am no longer pissing and moaning about what a pig the AI is. .... Instead, I am grateful that I can sail it without having to move around much.

Started out with a Yakima Rack-and-Roll trailer: Seriously cool-looking and highly-engineered... but pretty high off the ground. ... Think lifting 250# to get the AI on to it.

Now the Yak is up for sale and I have the AI on a more sensible Trailex 450 trailer with 8" wheels - which the boat goes on/off of about as close to effortlessly as possible.

Bottom Line: Your advice about choosing a boat under the assumption of further body deterioration was right on the money and I am grateful for it.

upchurchmr
03-12-2017, 09:08 PM
Kevin,

That certainly looks like a kayak to me. Perhaps the usage of "canoe" is different than in Texas.

PeteCress
01-28-2018, 09:02 AM
And yes, the lighter and skinnier the hulls, the faster you'll go.
Just layed out the big bucks for one of these Bad Boyz:
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipMlINPNVCZT4g8d3L92zrEseteJv41-qT4rX_a5/photo/AF1QipNhYCPIh8Q1wVvp3RT-aTCWyZRNPZb0_aHhZLYf
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipMlINPNVCZT4g8d3L92zrEseteJv41-qT4rX_a5/photo/AF1QipPdRKb9DSUslnDXCOFmvbwaehfOR3w3J3tT4I_8

Vaka Width: 13".

Going to keep the AI as my moderate-to-heavy-air boat and, if it works for me, this one for my light-air boat.

Basically an OC-1 outrigger canoe with a sail and a little twist.

The twist is a curved foil that keeps the ama from flying by exerting downward lift on the ama tack.

They also claim that altering the foil's angle of attack can make it lift the ama - enabling one to sail with ama skimming and less resistance.
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipMlINPNVCZT4g8d3L92zrEseteJv41-qT4rX_a5/photo/AF1QipMm_Ky6cBWpU4cPqNG7xrwvDn5Z6PhiUFs5lh3g

Under sail, it seems like it is going to be a little bit like flying a helicopter: both feet and both hands required at all times - feet for steering, left hand for the main sheet, and right hand for the foil's angle of attack control.

I am hoping for a real-world paddle-only speed of more than the AI's 3.5-4 mph...maybe sail upwind, furl the sail, and paddle home.

Only 62 of these things were made... and there has to be a reason for that.... I just hope the reason(s) don't bite me...

Canoeyawl
01-28-2018, 10:32 AM
A catboat with an inboard --- A Marshall 22 would work for me. It is part of my bucket list to do the intercostal loop on one.

http://www.marshallcat.com/assets/images/Marshall-22--7-640.jpg


Maybe we could do it as a race? :)

Mickey Lake

Yes but do it to see who can take the longest elapsed time, stopping at the most restaurants, bars, town docks, and have the highest bird watching count. First in a race to the finish can be problematic.

amish rob
01-28-2018, 10:34 AM
Yes but do it to see who can take the longest elapsed time, stopping at the most restaurants, bars, town docks, and have the highest bird watching count. First in a race to the finish can be problematic.
Im IN! Im sure I could drag a loop out to four or five years without batting an eyelash.

Peace,
Robert

earling2
01-28-2018, 10:34 AM
You really need to stop saying these things. Either you're blessed with good genes or you're not old enough. There are many of us that exercise and live/ eat well and still feel the need to be safer and and a bit more stable when on the foredeck. I bicycle now for exercise as its low impact. I've done 2 century rides this summer and ride about 150 miles weekly. I do weights a few times a week. I have severe spinal stenosis which puts a real dent in my mobility and it is genetic. Carbs and alcohol have nothing to do with it. I'm guessing that most of us are trying to balance ageing, lifestyle, genetics, and being active. Quit judging those you don't even know. FWIW, I'm finding this thread informative and pertinant.

Agree completely. I just turned 60 and ageing is a big deal now, finally. I bike to keep my lungs and legs and cardiovascular system going, and do yoga 1X week (which is about the minimum that's useful). I eat right, don't drink, yadda yadda. Because of a transplant I see the docs every 3 months for blood work. Doesn't matter how many good things I do for myself, my muscles hurt more, I'm more liable to pay for those adrenalized responses to things like nearly falling or avoiding crashing a mountain bike or capsizing a boat, or whatever. A few weeks ago I nearly paralyzed my whole lower back--a first for me--by doing some simple yoga pose. (Which, by the say, will put hair on your chest. It ain't no girly sport, though it's mostly women who do it). No amount of postitivity and carb-avoiding is going to stop the ageing process. (BTW, in case I haven't already, I can't plug yoga enough to slow ageing. I"m far more flexible now and stronger than I was 15 years ago when I started, and flexibility and strength are normally things equated with youthfulness)

PeteCress
01-28-2018, 11:03 AM
It is part of my bucket list to do the intercostal loop on one.
A guy I used to windsurf with did that for the same reason.

Ruined his health: gained about 60 pounds and has not been the same since.

Just thought I'd cheer everybody up a little....

Ian McColgin
01-28-2018, 11:15 AM
The Marshall 22 is a fantastic little cruiser. Sitting headroom but often an awning aft of the dodger is the very thing. I knew a couple who for about twenty years snow birded from their home on Cape to their home in Florida in their Marshall, which they also cruised so much up and down and around at both ends that I wondered why they had even one house much less two. The reason being their adult children. Good choice.

Canoeyawl
01-28-2018, 12:34 PM
A catboat with an inboard --- A Marshall 22 would work for me. It is part of my bucket list to do the intercostal loop on one.

http://www.marshallcat.com/assets/images/Marshall-22--7-640.jpg


A guy I used to windsurf with did that for the same reason.

Ruined his health: gained about 60 pounds and has not been the same since.



That would have happened anyway...