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Dlt#1
04-28-2015, 08:25 PM
Hello, Is there a way to "heave to" while using a balanced lug sail, no jib sheet? If not, how do you get a minute to fix a sandwich, take a running fix, etc?
thanks!

Yeadon
04-28-2015, 08:38 PM
Install a mizzen. Sheet in the mizzen. Let your main sheet loose. Weathercock. Rest until done resting.

Dlt#1
04-28-2015, 09:34 PM
Thank you. I would love to have a mizzen. Can you suggest a simple set up? I am not especially familiar with how to retrofit such a thing. Or anything, really. But I'd love to hear ideas. No other way to buy some time without the mizzen? I appreciate yout thoughts.
DLT

James McMullen
04-28-2015, 10:10 PM
The mizzen is the best friend of a singlehanded small boat sailor.

cracked lid
04-28-2015, 10:36 PM
I've been able to heave to pretty reliable in 15 knots and some pretty choppy water with a balanced lug. I sheet in and turn into the wind until the sail starts to luff. Then I let the sheet out, push the tiller all the way to lee and loosely tie off the main sheet. It works well enough to take a minute or two to do something else. I'm not sure how much of this is hull dependent so it may not work for you, but I was pleasantly surprised how well my First Mate hull heaves to in this manner.

john welsford
04-29-2015, 05:42 AM
With a single balanced lugsail I dont "heave to" as such, but perform a maneuver that the SCAMP sailors call "parking". Let the sheet go, turn into the wind a little until the boat has all but lost steerage way, then bear away to broadside on and let the tiller go. When you get it right in terms of centerboard position, or in the SCAMP case the "offcenterboard" the boat will just sit there. Sail fully luffed on its unstayed mast, drifting almost imperceptibly sideways. To move off, just pull the sheet in and you're gone.

Different designs or even different trim on the same design will need slightly different handling, but if you practice it, it will work when you need it to.

John Welsford

Ben Fuller
04-29-2015, 05:58 AM
Didn't know there was a defined 'park', good to know. The little spritsail and lug sail boats with which I'm familiar will all do this if you turn loose of everything, let the boat drift sideways to the wind. I also tell people when they are having a problem in these craft to just drop stuff, then sort it out. Unstayed mast is the key.

Binnacle Bat
04-29-2015, 06:36 AM
Sloops will park this way too. let the jib luff, let the main out as if on a beam reach. Luff up into the wind until all way is lost, then put the helm over. I do this when taking in and shaking out reefs. Helps to have something to keep the helm over, I just jamb the tiller extension against a stringer.

Allan

Ian McColgin
04-29-2015, 06:57 AM
john welsford and cracked lid give good general remarks that work for catboats as well.

You'll want to practice, allowing your boat to show you how she likes to either heave-to or the loose heave-to some call "parking."

Different sea and wind states call for little changes in heave-to trim but that's no different from how your boat teaches you different ways to tack, sometimes wanting to carve a long slow turn that gives a few boat lengths to weather and other times slamming her over as you crest a wave.

If things are rather calm, the "parking" is great because you can get going again so easily. One charming site around here is lunch time for the very large Laser fleet that comes from all over the world. Those wee boats sail well out in the Sound and can't easily sail to shore so they all covey up "parked" to eat and gossip. As things get more boisterous you may want to be pointed a little higher to not take the waves on the beam.

The sail is the primary thing controlling angle to the sea. The further in, the further up.

Balance the centerboard if you have one. The further down, the slower the leeway but also the more possible it is for the boat to manage to tack through.

The helm needs to be down - steering upwind, tiller on the same side of the boat as the boom - so that the boat can't gather too much way off the wind. This is the last thing you actually freeze as you'll want to steer a little as she settles down and you get the sail and board right.

The further into the wind you heave-to, the closer your boat is to simply lying in irons, unable to gather enough way to either steer off or tack through. The two approaches start by remembering to put the board down. Then ease the sheet so the sail keeps luffing as you fall off. When you're on a broad reach, trim the sail just enough to fill most of it, keeping a bit of luff so the sail does not over-power the helm. Trim in too fast and she'll just round up in irons. You'll get the feel.

If necessary, let the boat develop sternway and steer off-wind by having the helm "down" - like it would force you upwind if you were going forward. Hang on to the tiller as the forces on the rudder are strong. This is a very powerful and fast way to get off the wind. People get confused sailing backwards. Turn around facing the stern makes it obvious that you're now treating the rudder like the front wheel of a bicycle and it gets totally intuitive.

G'luck

Canoeyawl
04-29-2015, 09:59 AM
Mizzens are the best.
Being able to stop and head dead into the wind, make a cup of coffee and a sandwich, enjoy it and maybe have a little nap afterward is priceless.
I'm certain you can retrofit a small mizzen on anything, including a sloop with a transom hung rudder. Just mount it off center clear of the tiller, the boat will never know.

gilberj
04-29-2015, 05:04 PM
Single sail...boats are less effective at heaving to or stalling like this. Most can find a sweet spot but I have never found these sorts of boats/sail plans as stable in the hove to condition as a boat with a divided sail plan....as those above have mentioned regarding a mizzen.

Peerie Maa
04-29-2015, 05:31 PM
Single sail...boats are less effective at heaving to or stalling like this. Most can find a sweet spot but I have never found these sorts of boats/sail plans as stable in the hove to condition as a boat with a divided sail plan....as those above have mentioned regarding a mizzen.

Main sail and jib rigs like Peerie also work well. Back the jib, let the main sheet run free, and pin the rudder over to counteract the backed jib and she will just sit there. Classic hove too.

Mikey Floyd
04-29-2015, 05:57 PM
I'm not a fan of hauling the mizzen in tight in a cat yawl as a form of 'heaving to', the sternway is just too much to bear. I much prefer keeping the head somewhat off the breeze - a slightly loose mizzen sheet, the tiller tied off to leeward (sometimes partially to leeward) and fine tune with the board.

'Park' is a good word and encapsulates the essence of what is intended by heaving to. With this in mind, making a knot or two (or more) backwards directly downwind could be pushing the definition of 'Heaving to' I reckon anyhow.

James McMullen
04-29-2015, 08:48 PM
Do you not sheet the mizzen in tight with the helm hard over, Mikey? (to starboard is what I prefer with a yard and boom to port of the mast) This works exactly as what you would consider as "parked" in Rowan, at any rate.

Maybe time to repost this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J0PPC94C04s/UnBKHIdRm9I/AAAAAAAAA4A/5tpmyQA-qfo/s1600/424400_519771434733574_855015721_n.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BylwZWqqpL0/UnBKIFwnyRI/AAAAAAAAA4I/kjYMdgihq0o/s1600/582819_519771441400240_1806549654_n.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1Zp1anCr7NQ/UnBKIjZIcKI/AAAAAAAAA4M/sKJoCWl2CbY/s1600/376383_519771444733573_1063366954_n.jpg

Mikey Floyd
04-29-2015, 10:00 PM
Do you not sheet the mizzen in tight with the helm hard over, Mikey? (to starboard is what I prefer with a yard and boom to port of the mast) This works exactly as what you would consider as "parked" in Rowan, at any rate.

When I'm sans jib I don't no. I always find the boat shearing around and never settling down to a stable angle off the wind. Additional to the added sternway as the boat would be too often pointing too high. This in several boats for me.

My post responds to the many references I've read in the broader forum here about heaving to with the boat 'head to wind.' If Rowan parks happily at an angle making little leeway with a tight mizz sheet we may have found a significant functional difference. Perhaps your mizzen of smaller proportional area combined with greater windage in the bow is enough to make the difference.

ps surely you mean helm down to port with booms and yard swinging to port? (Or both stbd) Or are you simply referring to them set on that side of the mast and preferable for heaving to as the mast makes a mockery of the sail shape? If not we might need a larger discussion...

James McMullen
04-29-2015, 10:58 PM
With my sail etc. on the port side of the mast, I prefer to heave-to or "park" on the stbd tack. This keeps my body weight on centerline, while I deal with reefing or striking or whatever. So yes, I guess you'd say I put my helm down to port, but since I use push-pull, what I actually do is pull the stick forward.

It's illustrated in Figure 2 above, at any rate.

jpatrick
04-30-2015, 12:03 AM
as the mast makes a mockery of the sail shape?

Could you explain that? I don't have this sort of rig, but I'm curious. Thanks.

Jeff

Mikey Floyd
04-30-2015, 01:09 AM
Jeff, I think my comment can best be explained as a graceless attempt to understand an apparent contradiction from someone who knows very well what he's talking about. Up and down, push and pull have been cleared up, the semantics are aligned, the boat is parked.

Nevertheless, here's a googled image of a balanced lug setting to windward of the mast. The relevance to this discussion is very little indeed, the relevance in the broader scheme of things is pretty much the same too, I reckon.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/15khfnqwaklkeub/Beth-3.jpg?dl=0

Max F
04-30-2015, 01:27 AM
Thats my experience as well.
Max

I'm not a fan of hauling the mizzen in tight in a cat yawl as a form of 'heaving to', the sternway is just too much to bear. I much prefer keeping the head somewhat off the breeze - a slightly loose mizzen sheet, the tiller tied off to leeward (sometimes partially to leeward) and fine tune with the board.

'Park' is a good word and encapsulates the essence of what is intended by heaving to. With this in mind, making a knot or two (or more) backwards directly downwind could be pushing the definition of 'Heaving to' I reckon anyhow.


Last edited by Mikey Floyd; 04-30-2015 at 02:52 AM.

Eric Hvalsoe
05-03-2015, 09:52 AM
Its true the sternway made when I haul in the mizzen of my little bitty yawl to keep the head up is disconcerting. But it is what I do to raise and lower the balanced lug main, as I prefer to have that big sail relatively close to centerline. It needs to fall into the boat without a lot of fuss and clear the rails. I don't use lazyjacks.

Parking as it is being described, laying some points off the wind or even nearly abeam is fine for taking a leak, a meal, a short break, etc. Regarding the centerboard, eventually I learned to keep the board up on Bandwagon when raising and lowering sail, head close to the wind. Board down the boat was inclined to get too close or even cross the eye of the wind as I lurched forward. Without a mizzen raising and lowering sounds a bit sketchy but apparently some people get used to it. Ones options are reduced, not good in a hard chance.

rgthom
05-03-2015, 11:13 AM
This is interesting, I wish you guys had this discussion before I tried making my rowboat "park" by adding a mizzen. With no lateral board, rudder, or mainsail the attempt to park was a complete failure. The boat just picked up way too much sternway, spun on the skeg and turned sideways in 25 - 30 kt winds.

Eric Hvalsoe
05-03-2015, 12:33 PM
This is interesting, I wish you guys had this discussion before I tried making my rowboat "park" by adding a mizzen. With no lateral board, rudder, or mainsail the attempt to park was a complete failure. The boat just picked up way too much sternway, spun on the skeg and turned sideways in 25 - 30 kt winds.

Rick, just occurs to me (sorry for the drift), the way I 'park' for a comfortable break when out for a row in bandwagon is to move aft. I set a beach chair on the floorboards just ahead of the stern sheets and kick my feet up. Very comfortable, The boat spins around and pretty much faces stern to wind and wave. She is happy in any condition yet encountered.

john welsford
05-03-2015, 09:55 PM
To do that you need to get the boat trimmed well down by the bow .

John Welsford



This is interesting, I wish you guys had this discussion before I tried making my rowboat "park" by adding a mizzen. With no lateral board, rudder, or mainsail the attempt to park was a complete failure. The boat just picked up way too much sternway, spun on the skeg and turned sideways in 25 - 30 kt winds.

Canoeyawl
05-04-2015, 12:44 AM
This is interesting, I wish you guys had this discussion before I tried making my rowboat "park" by adding a mizzen. With no lateral board, rudder, or mainsail the attempt to park was a complete failure. The boat just picked up way too much sternway, spun on the skeg and turned sideways in 25 - 30 kt winds.

Maybe toss a pail tied to the painter over the bow, sort of a sea anchor? I always have a black rubber pail on board that might do the trick (they sink)

When I heave to under the mizzen only I leave the board down and the boat heads up, makes a little headway, tacks on it's own and settles down for a minute or two on the other tack then repeats ultimately making a very slow stern board slowly tacking the whole time. Without the board we go mostly sideways as the bow blows off, uncomfortable.
A light, shoal draft vessel with only a skeg might be problematic taking off like an errant beach ball, the more wind the worse this will be. Perhaps letting the anchor go off the bow with ten or fifteen feet of rode out might do it... With a big fore deck you may not be able to get enough weight forward to trim down by the bow.

Ian McColgin
05-04-2015, 06:08 AM
If it's a rowboat experiment. Some lay into the wind more happily if bow down a little so curl up a little forward of amidships. Some like to ride off so hang back a little.

rgthom
05-04-2015, 11:45 AM
Thanks for the rowboat advice, but the OP is asking about a lug sail and my rowboat problems were pretty well sorted out on my R2AK thread (it's OK beam-on most of the time, and a sea anchor does the job if it gets hairy). If I had seen some of the knowledgeable comments above I would not have wasted time trying the mizzen.

Rick

skuthorp
05-04-2015, 03:54 PM
My MacGregor does not have a mizzen, my mistake when building. I just drop the sail when I want to brew up on board.
I've thought of a retrofit set as far aft as the boat will allow in a tube, but never got round to it. After 13 or so years sailing I probably won't.

gilberj
05-04-2015, 07:01 PM
A lot of the comments re sailing with a mizzen seem to show a bit of a lack of experimentation, and perhaps understanding. Its not enough to simply haul the mizzen in tight and expect the boat to be parked. You have to experiment with settings to see what works. First the forward portion of the boat, main mast and rigging tend to catch a lot of wind and help the boat to fall off towards having the wind on the beam or slightly aft of the beam. By carrying the mizzen you can bring the bow somewhat into the wind. Exactly how much will depend on the geometry boat and the rig. With the mizzen in tight you may find yourself in an unstable attitude with the wind, possible tacking from side to side. Slacking the mizzen sheet a bit can allow to bow to fall off somewhat. This may allow you to sail slowly under mizzen alone with the rudder probably lashed to windward. You develop an equilibrium. You should get the steadying effect of having a sail up for the boat to lean against. Shallow body boats may need a little way on for it all to work, so you CB and rudder are functioning with water going past.
I have used the mizzen is this way on a number of different boats, including traditional keel boats such as Herreshoff's Rozinante and 21 foot cat-yawl, and now use it with the Meadowlark, ( which by far is the best, and most versatile ) and a cat ketch (yawl) similar to the Sea-Pearl.
With regards to boats that are miss'n the mizzen, single sail boats, Lug sails or other I'll still recommend just experimenting, there is almost always a sweet spot, but it is usually a little harder to get all the elements working reliably.

For straight rowing boats or rowing boats that have a auxiliary sail, I have mainly dropped the rig and sit on the bottom forward of the rowing station. This sticks the stern up slightly and the boat weathercocks bow into the wind, drifting fairly slowly directly down wind. I have used this to ride out a squall on one occasion.

WI-Tom
05-04-2015, 07:22 PM
With regards to boats that are miss'n the mizzen, single sail boats, Lug sails or other I'll still recommend just experimenting, there is almost always a sweet spot, but it is usually a little harder to get all the elements working reliably.

I've had a few mizzen-less lug-rigged boats, and have always found that they lie fairly comfortably beam-on to the wind (and stay that way--pretty stable) if you simply let the sheet fly. That's not always a good position to be in depending on waves, but it's a dead simple and easy maneuver in easy conditions.

Tom