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View Full Version : Jap estimate of u.s. Land tactics



wardd
04-25-2015, 05:36 PM
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/intelligence-report/estimate-us-tactics.html

Jim Bow
04-25-2015, 09:13 PM
I can only assume the Japanese authors were unfamiliar with the battle of Edson'sRidge.

Jim Bow
04-25-2015, 09:16 PM
I can only assume the Japanese authors were unfamiliar with the battle of Edson'sRidge.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Edson's_Ridge

Phillip Allen
04-25-2015, 09:36 PM
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/intelligence-report/estimate-us-tactics.html

Jap? didn't we just have this out about disrespecting our WWII opponents?

The Bigfella
04-25-2015, 09:55 PM
Jap? didn't we just have this out about disrespecting our WWII opponents?

Some Yanks did. Carry on

Nicholas Scheuer
04-25-2015, 10:13 PM
When the Japs are planning how to fight US Forces, we can call them anything we damm please.

purri
04-25-2015, 10:25 PM
A 2: 1 advantage over poorly supplied enemy troops, really?
I can only assume the Japanese authors were unfamiliar with the battle of Edson'sRidge.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Edson's_Ridge

Jim Bow
04-25-2015, 11:14 PM
A 2: 1 advantage over poorly supplied enemy troops, really?
Not quite sure what you are referring to.

"As the sun set on 13 September, Kawaguchi faced Edson's 830 Marines with 3,000 troops "

PeterSibley
04-25-2015, 11:16 PM
I can only assume the Japanese authors were unfamiliar with the battle of Edson'sRidge.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Edson's_Ridge

They were very nearly successful, a similar story at Milne Bay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Milne_Bay

The Japanese really weren't used to the amount of firepower they faced, it was nothing like China were the Nationalist forces were always hard pressed for ammunition. The bayonet charge had served them well for 8 years until then.

PeterSibley
04-25-2015, 11:17 PM
Not quite sure what you are referring to.
550 US Marines assaulted by 2500 Imperial Army soldiers over two days and nights.

Purri was probably referencing this ,
"Underestimating the strength of Allied forces on Guadalcanal–about 12,000–Kawaguchi's 6,000 soldiers conducted several nighttime frontal assaults (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_assault) on the U.S. defenses. The main Japanese assault occurred around Lunga ridge south of Henderson Field, manned by troops from several U.S. Marine Corps units, primarily troops from the 1st Raider (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Raiders) and 1st Parachute (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramarines)Battalions (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion) under U.S. Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_Colonel) Merritt A. Edson (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merritt_A._Edson). Although the Marine defenses were almost overrun, Kawaguchi's attack was ultimately defeated, with heavy losses for the Japanese.''

purri
04-26-2015, 02:13 AM
^Yes. The ebb and flow of battle y'know.

Jim Bow
04-26-2015, 07:13 PM
^Yes. The ebb and flow of battle y'know.

I was shocked, after being raised on "Victory At Sea" to read in "Neptune's Inferno" (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703954004576090092301041646) that the U S Navy was inept and almost comical during the naval battle of Guadalcanal. Ships firing into their own battle groups and almost ramming each other in the smoke. Commanders who chose to rely on gut feelings rather than radar. Incompetence on a grand scale. But the pieces fell our way in the end.

Waddie
04-26-2015, 07:59 PM
I was shocked, after being raised on "Victory At Sea" to read in "Neptune's Inferno" (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703954004576090092301041646) that the U S Navy was inept and almost comical during the naval battle of Guadalcanal. Ships firing into their own battle groups and almost ramming each other in the smoke. Commanders who chose to rely on gut feelings rather than radar. Incompetence on a grand scale. But the pieces fell our way in the end.

It was on the job training for the US Navy. The Japanese had night fighting experience. But we learned fast. A year later we were launching aircraft at night.

regards,
Waddie

purri
04-26-2015, 08:51 PM
Don't forget Halsey splitting his fleet.
I was shocked, after being raised on "Victory At Sea" to read in "Neptune's Inferno" (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703954004576090092301041646) that the U S Navy was inept and almost comical during the naval battle of Guadalcanal. Ships firing into their own battle groups and almost ramming each other in the smoke. Commanders who chose to rely on gut feelings rather than radar. Incompetence on a grand scale. But the pieces fell our way in the end.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-26-2015, 08:56 PM
The Japanese army was not all that hot. Even before they faced American guns they had to face Russian Gen. Giorgi Zhukhov and his Siberian troops at the Battle of Kholkin Gol in Mongolia. That was in 1939. Zhukov was every bit as willing to take huge numbers of casualties as the Japaese. Plus he had a lot of first rate tanks that wadded the enemy's tanks up like tin buckets. The Japanese general was more than happy to call a halt to the procedings and he warned his superiors that henceforth they had best attack in the other direction.

PeterSibley
04-26-2015, 10:16 PM
I was shocked, after being raised on "Victory At Sea" to read in "Neptune's Inferno" (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703954004576090092301041646) that the U S Navy was inept and almost comical during the naval battle of Guadalcanal. Ships firing into their own battle groups and almost ramming each other in the smoke. Commanders who chose to rely on gut feelings rather than radar. Incompetence on a grand scale. But the pieces fell our way in the end.

Thank you Jim, that series of engagements is something I've read about before but that book looks like an excellent overview.

''James Hornfischer's "Neptune's Inferno" contributes a great deal toward balancing the picture. The Japanese and American troops on the island could only be re-supplied, reinforced or evacuated by sea, and the peculiar geography of the southern Solomons ensured that the opposing naval forces met early and often. While the fighting ashore was intense, the U.S. Navy lost three sailors for every Marine or soldier killed on Guadalcanal. The Japanese and Americans each lost two dozen major warships and more than 400 planes.''

''Though an American victory, the Guadalcanal campaign began and ended with blunders and recriminations. Only two days after the initial landings, Adm. Frank Jack Fletcher, who commanded the aircraft carriers covering the operation, withdrew his ships from the area, leaving the amphibious task force and the Marines without air cover. The next night a Japanese cruiser force under Rear Adm. Mikawa Gunichi surprised the Allied cruisers and destroyers guarding the transports and sank three U.S. cruisers and one Australian. It was in some respects a worse defeat than Pearl Harbor, since the Hawaiian naval station had been attacked unexpectedly during peacetime whereas the American fleet at Guadalcanal was in the midst of a combat operation and anticipating a Japanese reaction.''

''Then, on Nov. 30, 1942, near the conclusion of the campaign, an American task force of five cruisers and six destroyers, caught a greatly inferior force of Japanese destroyers attempting to deliver supplies off Tassafaronga. The Japanese recovered quickly, sinking one American cruiser and badly damaging three others. Japanese losses were one destroyer. All in all, the Japanese—who had long trained for night fighting and possessed a powerful torpedo with great range—more often than not had the upper hand in the naval battles around Guadalcanal. In every encounter Americans had the considerable advantage of radar but failed to use it properly. Without tactical superiority, what ensured American success in the campaign was the tenacity and luck with which the U.S. military thwarted all Japanese attempts, by sea and land, to capture Guadalcanal's only airfield.''

skuthorp
04-27-2015, 04:55 AM
I was shocked, after being raised on "Victory At Sea" to read in "Neptune's Inferno" (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703954004576090092301041646) that the U S Navy was inept and almost comical during the naval battle of Guadalcanal. Ships firing into their own battle groups and almost ramming each other in the smoke. Commanders who chose to rely on gut feelings rather than radar. Incompetence on a grand scale. But the pieces fell our way in the end.
Sounds like a book I have on the Russo-Japanese naval action. Chaos and confusion. Visual comm's via lamp and flags would not have helped, and formulaic 'military exercises' to make the results look good not much either when it's real.

purri
04-27-2015, 06:44 AM
Repeated for emphasis and that footnote of intercepted and decoded Japanese naval comms[. QUOTE=purri;4523258]Don't forget Halsey splitting his fleet.[/QUOTE]

purri
04-27-2015, 06:49 AM
Repeated for emphasis and the footnote in wiki of intercepted and decoded japanese naval comms passed on 2-dec-41
[. Quote=purri;4523258]don't forget halsey splitting his fleet.[/quote]

The Bigfella
04-27-2015, 07:44 AM
Yes, Halsey's land tactics were woeful. Oh... what?

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-27-2015, 10:50 AM
Thank you Jim, that series of engagements is something I've read about before but that book looks like an excellent overview.

''James Hornfischer's "Neptune's Inferno" contributes a great deal toward balancing the picture. The Japanese and American troops on the island could only be re-supplied, reinforced or evacuated by sea, and the peculiar geography of the southern Solomons ensured that the opposing naval forces met early and often. While the fighting ashore was intense, the U.S. Navy lost three sailors for every Marine or soldier killed on Guadalcanal. The Japanese and Americans each lost two dozen major warships and more than 400 planes.''

''Though an American victory, the Guadalcanal campaign began and ended with blunders and recriminations. Only two days after the initial landings, Adm. Frank Jack Fletcher, who commanded the aircraft carriers covering the operation, withdrew his ships from the area, leaving the amphibious task force and the Marines without air cover. The next night a Japanese cruiser force under Rear Adm. Mikawa Gunichi surprised the Allied cruisers and destroyers guarding the transports and sank three U.S. cruisers and one Australian. It was in some respects a worse defeat than Pearl Harbor, since the Hawaiian naval station had been attacked unexpectedly during peacetime whereas the American fleet at Guadalcanal was in the midst of a combat operation and anticipating a Japanese reaction.''

''Then, on Nov. 30, 1942, near the conclusion of the campaign, an American task force of five cruisers and six destroyers, caught a greatly inferior force of Japanese destroyers attempting to deliver supplies off Tassafaronga. The Japanese recovered quickly, sinking one American cruiser and badly damaging three others. Japanese losses were one destroyer. All in all, the Japanese—who had long trained for night fighting and possessed a powerful torpedo with great range—more often than not had the upper hand in the naval battles around Guadalcanal. In every encounter Americans had the considerable advantage of radar but failed to use it properly. Without tactical superiority, what ensured American success in the campaign was the tenacity and luck with which the U.S. military thwarted all Japanese attempts, by sea and land, to capture Guadalcanal's only airfield.''

If you look at a map of the Solomon Islands you will notice they have fairly close proximity to each other. Those inter-island waterways are not a favored space to have a naval battle. It one point the the American ships supporting the Marines had to abandon them to avoid being trapped by superior forces. Out on the open sea the US had a fighting chance and it's ship building capacity could allow them to trade ship for ship and stilll come out on top.

Also, it should be remembered that the Guadalcanal campaign was a limited effort. The South Pacific at that time was playing second fiddle to the North Africa invasion which was in the planning stages. It would require all the men, equipment and shipping in the US stockpile. The US was juggling a lot of balls at that time and inspite if many mistakes it came out on top. When the first troops went ashore at Guadal. the US navy had already cut the heart out of Yamamoto's battle fleet at Midway. Halsey's people were outnumbered by about three to one at Midway yet they cut a hole in the Japanese fleet and forced it to retire.

You may return to carping about those that were nice enough to bring you to the dance.