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View Full Version : Oathkeepers, Ie. contractors.



Jim Bow
04-20-2015, 07:44 PM
As pointed out in the original Oathkeepers thread, members of the military take an oath to preserve the Constitution ...

To whom do military contractors make promises? Think of Blackwater, for instance. Whose orders do they follow? Blackwater's? If they fail to follow orders, are they punished, or merely fired.

On another note, why have contractors at all? Why does the "greatest military in the world" need to hire civilians to guard its own VIPs?

John Smith
04-20-2015, 07:53 PM
As pointed out in the original Oathkeepers thread, members of the military take an oath to preserve the Constitution ...

To whom do military contractors make promises? Think of Blackwater, for instance. Whose orders do they follow? Blackwater's? If they fail to follow orders, are they punished, or merely fired.

On another note, why have contractors at all? Why does the "greatest military in the world" need to hire civilians to guard its own VIPs?

That is an excellent question. One's initial response is apt to be money, but we pay the contractors a lot more.

Perhaps the answer is: Dick Cheney. Plausible deniability?

Good question.

BrianW
04-20-2015, 08:10 PM
As pointed out in the original Oathkeepers thread, members of the military take an oath to preserve the Constitution ...

To whom do military contractors make promises? Think of Blackwater, for instance. Whose orders do they follow? Blackwater's? If they fail to follow orders, are they punished, or merely fired.

On another note, why have contractors at all? Why does the "greatest military in the world" need to hire civilians to guard its own VIPs?

The recent judgement against several Blackwater employees is evidence that they can be punished for wrong doings. The answer to your question about punished, or merely fired, is both.

BrianW
04-20-2015, 08:15 PM
That is an excellent question. One's initial response is apt to be money, but we pay the contractors a lot more.

Perhaps the answer is: Dick Cheney. Plausible deniability?

Good question.

It's money. Contractors get paid well, but they have no benefits beyond that. It gives the government a lot of flexibility to end contracts when needed without continuing to pay the people who did the work. Nor do they have to maintain a large group of people, to do nothing, until something does come up.

It frees assets for other duties.

Contractors usually do things better than the military. More efficient, faster, and bring a level of experience that the military can't match. By the time someone in the military is really good at their job, they get promoted to a leadership position and don't do that job anymore.

Gerarddm
04-20-2015, 11:05 PM
Contractors usually do things better than the military. More efficient, faster, and bring a level of experience that the military can't match. By the time someone in the military is really good at their job, they get promoted to a leadership position and don't do that job anymore.


Since contractors are trained in the military in their prior occupations, I do not understand the logic of this statement.

Contractors are nothing more than condottieri. And like the mercenaries of old, not reputable. If shipping companies want to hire them for anti-piracy duties, fine. But the US gov't should never have hired them for Iraq or Afghanistan work.

BrianW
04-20-2015, 11:32 PM
Since contractors are trained in the military in their prior occupations, I do not understand the logic of this statement.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about, so it's no surprise you had to say something.

Most contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan had jobs running the FOBS. The were the electricians, the plumbers, HVAC, the cooks, ran fuel farms, deliver parts and equipment, they fixed the vehicles and often the airplanes. There was never a requirement to be ex-military to do those jobs.


Contractors are nothing more than condottieri. And like the mercenaries of old, not reputable.

You just say stuff and expect thinking people to believe it?

One group I worked with wracked up numbers...


Since Dec of 2011 when we started this contract through July of 2014:
10,293 hours flown in support of Operation Enduring Freedom
85,498 passengers moved
5,349,179 lbs of baggage moved
6,843,475 lbs of sling load operations
2,429 sling loads
27,200 missions
We have maintained a 92% availability rate!



...with two helicopters.

Any Army Aviation unit CO would love to have numbers like that on their OER.

Not reputable my ass.

Paul Girouard
04-20-2015, 11:35 PM
Since contractors are trained in the military in their prior occupations, I do not understand the logic of this statement.

Contractors are nothing more than condottieri. And like the mercenaries of old, not reputable. If shipping companies want to hire them for anti-piracy duties, fine. But the US gov't should never have hired them for Iraq or Afghanistan work.

You don't understand the military then.

It's a up or out system , as you reach certain years in service mile stones you move out of positions. A pilot who might have years left of high level flying ability is sent to a desk , few avaitor fly combat A/C after they reach Commander O-5 , very few O-6's are in combat A/C , maybe 10 fleet wide as CAG's Carrier Air Group Commanders .

Spe-ops guys would have the same fate a few CPO's E-7 , fewer E-7 Senior Chiefs and I'd guess Zero E-9's would be deployed in SEAL teams, just like Officier SEAL's very few LCDR's or above would be on a team.

Contractors hire those types who still have good years and the will to stay active as operators. They bring years of experience to the field that would NEVER deploy as active duty service people.


ETA: Brian knows more about it than I do , but a lot of the guys he flew with would be retired military pilots. And no we don't have contractors flying combat missions. Although I'm sure there are old pilots who'd like to do so.

Kevin T
04-20-2015, 11:38 PM
We're some of those same plumbing and electrical contractors the one's who were responsible for installing the "Fry and Die" shower units that caused a few military personnel to get electrocuted while taking a shower?

BrianW
04-20-2015, 11:52 PM
We're some of those same plumbing and electrical contractors the one's who were responsible for installing the "Fry and Die" shower units that caused a few military personnel to get electrocuted while taking a shower?

Some research doesn't being up the "installing the fry and die shower units," but there is a case pending again, following a successful appeal...

http://archive.armytimes.com/article/20130801/NEWS/308010035/Fed-court-revives-KBR-electrocution-suit

I saw one of those electric shower heads once, and did not use it!

Kevin T
04-21-2015, 07:11 AM
Some research doesn't being up the "installing the fry and die shower units," but there is a case pending again, following a successful appeal... http://archive.armytimes.com/article/20130801/NEWS/308010035/Fed-court-revives-KBR-electrocution-suit I saw one of those electric shower heads once, and did not use it!

And I suspect "Fry and Die" wouldn't come up in any research as that was my term. My point was, is that some contractor(and you said it was contractors handling electrical and plumbing needs) saw some kind of wisdom or cost savings by installing an electrical shower head.

I'm neither a plumber nor an electrician but my gut tells me that a shower head combined with electricity is an exceedingly bad idea.

Canoez
04-21-2015, 07:43 AM
And I suspect "Fry and Die" wouldn't come up in any research as that was my term. My point was, is that some contractor(and you said it was contractors handling electrical and plumbing needs) saw some kind of wisdom or cost savings by installing an electrical shower head.

I'm neither a plumber nor an electrician but my gut tells me that a shower head combined with electricity is an exceedingly bad idea.

In the UK, light switches are generally outside the bathroom door, but you can have 240VAC on-demand water heaters that are located IN THE SHOWER!

Kevin T
04-21-2015, 07:51 AM
In the UK, light switches are generally outside the bathroom door, but you can have 240VAC on-demand water heaters that are located IN THE SHOWER!

And personally, I'd take a pass on that kind of arrangement no matter how many assurances I got that they were absolutely safe.

Canoez
04-21-2015, 07:53 AM
And personally, I'd take a pass on that kind of arrangement no matter how many assurances I got that they were absolutely safe.

Was in my in-law's bathroom, so I didn't have much choice. It has since been replaced with a larger whole-house on-demand hot water heater.

Kevin T
04-21-2015, 07:57 AM
Was in my in-law's bathroom, so I didn't have much choice. It has since been replaced with a larger whole-house on-demand hot water heater. I hear you.

Kevin T
04-21-2015, 08:34 AM
It's money. Contractors get paid well, but they have no benefits beyond that. It gives the government a lot of flexibility to end contracts when needed without continuing to pay the people who did the work. Nor do they have to maintain a large group of people, to do nothing, until something does come up. It frees assets for other duties. Contractors usually do things better than the military. More efficient, faster, and bring a level of experience that the military can't match. By the time someone in the military is really good at their job, they get promoted to a leadership position and don't do that job anymore.

And maybe all of the above is the problem. Seems it makes it far too easy to go to war.