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View Full Version : Pay to play deputy shoots unarmed man in Tulsa.



CK 17
04-14-2015, 03:46 PM
What's next, pay to play doctors and airline pilots?

"Do we want really what are ordinary citizens, with enough money to play to be police officers, policing our streets? This is a very, very dangerous precedent," she said. "And I think it's now time for either the Justice Department, perhaps, or every single police department to review this, the deputy status, because we're going to see more and more of this kind of thing, if it isn't happening more than we even know."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/us/tulsa-shooting-robert-bates-volunteer-deputy/

John of Phoenix
04-14-2015, 03:48 PM
The guy never grew out of playing "cops and robbers". Tragic.

Phillip Allen
04-14-2015, 03:57 PM
what a pity for all... I had and voiced reservations about gun-like Tasers from the beginning. I was afraid they would lead to making it easier to simply abuse people through desensitizing.

skuthorp
04-14-2015, 03:58 PM
Wes that the bloke who was trying to buy a gun in a sting?

CK 17
04-14-2015, 03:59 PM
I didn't know making a donation to the policemans ball could get you a badge.

Paul Pless
04-14-2015, 04:00 PM
pretty messed up


Oakley, Mi. is barely a town at 300 people, only one streetlight and, until recently, one police officer. The one cop was good at his job, reports (http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/oakley-michigan/?page=all) Vocativ’s M.L. Nestel, until he was forced to step down after getting caught stalking a teenage girl.
In 2008, new chief Robert Reznick made some changes: he hired 12 full-time officers and started an enormous volunteer officer program which allowed lawyers, doctors and football players (from other towns) to work toward upholding the law.
One qualifies for this prestigious program simply by paying $1,200 to the police department. In return, you’ll get a uniform, bullet-proof vest and gun. For an additional donation, you’ll get a police badge and the right to carry your gun basically anywhere in the state, including stadiums, bars and daycares.
Nestel has more on the strange, seemingly mega-corrupt arrangement (http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/oakley-michigan/?page=all):

Oakley’s police chief has gotten into some hot water recently over his pet program. The Michigan Commission on Law Enforcement Standards and the state’s attorney general are both looking into how Oakley is collecting and spending money for its auxiliary cop program. And the police department was effectively shut down last month after it was unable to get insurance because of the ongoing investigations. Now all of Oakley’s 911 calls are being fielded by state troopers and sheriff’s deputies in nearby counties, and there are no police patrols in town.
Donna LaMontaine, the president of the Deputy Sheriffs Association of Michigan disapproves of the arrangement: “These people drop four or five grand and dress up to look like police. I have a problem with that.” She also has a problem with the volunteer cops having access to data terminals: “In some places, these reservists are allowed to access to the law enforcement information network, where they can run your license plate and find out where you live and look at your driving record. That’s happening.”

Phillip Allen
04-14-2015, 04:02 PM
I didn't know making a donation to the police and ball could get you a badge.

yes you did... remember your own politics

Paul Pless
04-14-2015, 04:06 PM
yes you did... remember your own politicsthere it is

CK 17
04-14-2015, 04:06 PM
yes you did... remember your own politics
Translation requested.

Paul Pless
04-14-2015, 04:07 PM
Translation requested.good luck with that

CWSmith
04-14-2015, 05:40 PM
The guy never grew out of playing "cops and robbers". Tragic.

Yes, I think that's exactly what happened. He was the largest contributor to the sheriff's reelection campaign. I suspect we will find it was an honest accident, but perhaps that's even more damning of this hobbyist cop nonsense.

ljb5
04-14-2015, 05:59 PM
It's difficult to not see the parallels to George Zimmerman.

It looks like the main difference is that this guy had enough money to rent a badge, whereas Zimmerman was so poor he had to make do with pretending he was a cop.

Paul Pless
04-14-2015, 06:00 PM
It's difficult to not see the parallels to George Zimmerman.

It looks like the main difference is that this guy had enough money to rent a badge, whereas Zimmerman was so poor he had to make do with pretending he was a cop.

You just gaurenteed this thread goes five pages.

hokiefan
04-14-2015, 06:03 PM
You just gaurenteed this thread goes five pages.

And put Phillip in a real quandary.

Does he damn the cops and the wanna-be cop? Or does he defend George Zimmerman?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Enquiring minds can't wait to find out. :d

Cheers,

Bobby

Canoeyawl
04-14-2015, 06:15 PM
It's difficult to not see the parallels to George Zimmerman.

It looks like the main difference is that this guy had enough money to rent a badge, whereas Zimmerman was so poor he had to make do with pretending he was a cop.

Pretending you're a cop on patrol here in the USA, makes shooting and killing an unarmed black person OK.

Phillip Allen
04-14-2015, 08:41 PM
You just gaurenteed this thread goes five pages.

he's just stalking Zimmerman... it's what he does... stalk people

hokiefan
04-14-2015, 09:31 PM
And put Phillip in a real quandary.

Does he damn the cops and the wanna-be cop? Or does he defend George Zimmerman?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Enquiring minds can't wait to find out. :d

Cheers,

Bobby


he's just stalking Zimmerman... it's what he does... stalk people

That didn't take too terribly long. :p

ljb5
04-14-2015, 10:02 PM
he's just stalking Zimmerman... it's what he does... stalk people

It would be interesting if you could set aside your delusions and obsessions long enough to address the issue.

Do you really not see the parallel between this guy and Zimmerman?

Remember: Zimmerman wanted to be a cop. He went on a police ride-along. When he wasn't accepted as a cop, he started acting like one on his own. This other guy was the same, but he had enough money to play out his fantasy.

You don't see the similarities?

Ian McColgin
04-14-2015, 10:21 PM
They are similar as cop-wannabes but Zimmerman had no powers of arrest or state sanctioned right to use force or deadly force. The Tulsa man had sworn officer powers and obligations. Zimmerman was solely responsible for anything he did. In Tulsa, the city has liability.

Old Dryfoot
04-14-2015, 10:30 PM
73? Really? On the streets with a violent crimes unit at 73?

Then there is all that other stuff too. . . some seriously ****** up **** that.

Phillip Allen
04-14-2015, 10:33 PM
73? Really? On the streets with a violent crimes unit at 73?

Then there is all that other stuff too. . . some seriously ****** up **** that.

I sympathize with the age concern but believe there must be 73 year olds fully capable of dealing with that stuff... not this guy though

John of Phoenix
04-14-2015, 11:00 PM
It would be interesting if you could set aside your delusions and obsessions long enough to address the issue.

Do you really not see the parallel between this guy and Zimmerman?

Remember: Zimmerman wanted to be a cop. He went on a police ride-along. When he wasn't accepted as a cop, he started acting like one on his own. This other guy was the same, but he had enough money to play out his fantasy.

You don't see the similarities?Set aside WHAT?

Old Dryfoot
04-14-2015, 11:27 PM
I sympathize with the age concern but believe there must be 73 year olds fully capable of dealing with that stuff... not this guy though

If you say so. When I hit 73 the last thing I want to be doing is trying to arrest someone 1/3rd my age, or half my age for that matter.

Phillip Allen
04-14-2015, 11:29 PM
If you say so. When I hit 73 the last thing I want to be doing is trying to arrest someone 1/3rd my age, or half my age for that matter.

me neither... it's the rapid decision making I was thinking of though

Jim Bow
04-14-2015, 11:31 PM
One other point, he's 73. Mandatory retirement of real deputies in that department is 63.

L.W. Baxter
04-14-2015, 11:32 PM
Tulsa should, and probably will, get the bejabbers sued out of them.

Phillip Allen
04-14-2015, 11:33 PM
Tulsa should, and probably will, get the bejabbers sued out of them.

seems likely... however, that won't plug up any holes

hokiefan
04-14-2015, 11:50 PM
seems likely... however, that won't plug up any holes

It will stop the completely foolish pay-to-play cop gig though...

Phillip Allen
04-14-2015, 11:51 PM
It will stop the completely foolish pay-to-play cop gig though...

prolly

Captain Intrepid
04-16-2015, 06:02 PM
He was the largest contributor to the sheriff's reelection campaign.

How the **** can a person be an impartial LEO and run for election? That's ****ed up.

CK 17
04-16-2015, 06:49 PM
We elect everyone down here: judges, dog catchers, town clerks. . . .

Captain Intrepid
04-16-2015, 06:55 PM
We elect everyone down here: judges, dog catchers, town clerks. . . .

It baffles me. To avoid thread drift though, from this egregious case of cronyism and corrupt police work, I'll start another thread.

CWSmith
04-16-2015, 07:00 PM
Does anyone think the sheriff will get out of this with his job?

Captain Intrepid
04-16-2015, 07:05 PM
Does anyone think the sheriff will get out of this with his job?

Frankly, he should feel lucky if he doesn't die in jail of old age. I'm not normally one for punitive sentencing, but I believe that any serious corruption in the justice system merits life in prison.

Old Dryfoot
04-16-2015, 07:19 PM
Someone is not telling the truth.



Supervisors ordered to falsify training records for Tulsa reserve deputy (http://news.yahoo.com/tulsa-officer-bates-harris-fatal-shooting-taser-144308481.html)

But according to the Tulsa World’s report (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/sources-supervisors-told-to-falsify-reserve-deputy-s-training-records/article_a6330f10-a9fb-51e3-ab5e-4d97b03c6c04.html), supervisors at the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office “were ordered to falsify [Bates’] training records, giving him credit for field training he never took and firearms certifications he should not have received.”

More from the newspaper’s report:
At least three of reserve deputy Robert Bates’ supervisors were transferred after refusing to sign off on his state-required training, multiple sources speaking on condition of anonymity told the World.



A spokesman for the Tulsa County sheriff declined to address the allegations but did announce a forthcoming internal review of the deputy reserve program.

“The media outlet that is putting that information out is using unconfirmed sources and also relying on anonymity,” Maj. Shannon Clark told NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/records-reserve-deputy-robert-bates-were-falsified-report-says-n342761). “We don’t respond to rumor.”

Clark Brewster, Bates’ attorney, told reporters that his client is fully certified with the state. Yahoo News on Thursday requested a copy of Bates’ records from the Oklahoma Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training but has not received a reply.

Ian McColgin
04-16-2015, 07:23 PM
The corruption of the sheriff's office is horrifying, but let's not forget the other officers who abused the victim while he died. There are no good guys among the standing in this one.

CWSmith
04-16-2015, 09:12 PM
Frankly, he should feel lucky if he doesn't die in jail of old age. I'm not normally one for punitive sentencing, but I believe that any serious corruption in the justice system merits life in prison.

This did start out sounding like an accident and perhaps poor judgement to have someone that age on the part-time force, but it gets worse every day.

seanz
04-16-2015, 10:08 PM
giving him credit for field training he never took and firearms certifications he should not have received.”

Could that have had a bearing on the outcome of the situation? I ask, with heavy sarcasm...

Is Oklahoma one of those States where if somebody dies as a result of felony, everybody involved with the felony gets charged with murder?

Captain Intrepid
04-17-2015, 02:14 AM
I'll alert the media.

Bless your heart.

Duncan Gibbs
04-17-2015, 04:37 AM
I'll alert the media.
Stop Press: Snark Attack Strikes WBF!

...

John Smith
04-18-2015, 07:02 AM
Thanks to those who pointed me here. Not sure how I missed it. I certainly scrolled past it often enough.

It appears the investigation is looking into this guy's actual training. That's got the potential to get interesting. As does his age. How many real cops are still on the street at 73.

I'm not sure a jury is going to convict him of anything serious, in part because he's owned up to the mistake.

I could be wrong.

Either way, suits against the police department might be very successful, and if training records were fraudulent, I can see a number of people facing criminal charges.

This will be another case where my personal view is the "department" didn't do this, but individual people did and they should be punished. Whatever settlement comes in lawsuits will come from the taxpayers. I have a problem with that.

skuthorp
04-18-2015, 07:15 AM
We elect everyone down here: judges, dog catchers, town clerks. . . .
If that's not a recipe for corruption I don't know what is.
Arrested by a sheriff with an eye to his next election. Prosecuted by a DA with an eye to his next election. Appearing before a judge with an eye to his next election. And jailed by a private corporation with an eye to keeping cells full to maximise profit.

Phillip Allen
04-18-2015, 08:42 AM
If that's not a recipe for corruption I don't know what is.
Arrested by a sheriff with an eye to his next election. Prosecuted by a DA with an eye to his next election. Appearing before a judge with an eye to his next election. And jailed by a private corporation with an eye to keeping cells full to maximise profit.

a good observation, and it gets even more complicated when we accept criminals investigating themselves

Tom Wilkinson
04-18-2015, 09:07 AM
a good observation, and it gets even more complicated when we accept criminals investigating themselves
Of course that view is based on the premise that they are all criminals. No bias in your thinking there at all.

John Smith
04-18-2015, 09:09 AM
It is hard for many Americans to accept this country has problems; it's unpatriotic to think that way.

It's the old "Love it or leave it" mentality. Heaven forbid we should find a problem and simply try to fix it.

Phillip Allen
04-18-2015, 09:13 AM
Of course that view is based on the premise that they are all criminals. No bias in your thinking there at all.

so when a cop murders someone, having the department investigate itself is okay with you?

Tom Wilkinson
04-18-2015, 09:21 AM
I don't thnk it's very common for the actyual department the cop works in to investigate.

Did you ever punish yur children? Or did you let your neighbors come over and reprimand your son when you caught him doing someting wrong? You're just as guilty as him by your logic.

Phillip Allen
04-18-2015, 09:43 AM
I don't thnk it's very common for the actyual department the cop works in to investigate.

Did you ever punish yur children? Or did you let your neighbors come over and reprimand your son when you caught him doing someting wrong? You're just as guilty as him by your logic.

I think you're being a bit disingenuous, Tom...

Tom Wilkinson
04-18-2015, 09:49 AM
Not at all. You asked a question and I answered. Maybe one day you will respond in kind, but that doesn't happen, for me or anyone.

Maybe you want to expand on how you feel I am being disingenuous. You made the accusation, back it up.

John Smith
04-18-2015, 09:54 AM
That's not such a bad analogy. A parent will often discipline a child. That same parent may, in the case of serious charges, lie to protect the child from arrest.

I think a Police department investigating itself may do similarly.

Tom Wilkinson
04-18-2015, 10:03 AM
That's not such a bad analogy. A parent will often discipline a child. That same parent may, in the case of serious charges, lie to protect the child from arrest.

I think a Police department investigating itself may do similarly.

I'd bet the instance of a department investigating itself is more the exception than the rule, but that doesn't feed Phillip's bias so we will brush over that.

We have all sorts of internal audits where I work. They do a very effective job of policing and regulating policies and procedures even though they are under the same corporate umbrella, up to and including self disclosing violations. I don't share Phillips assertions at all and I would be very surprised if any police department actually investigates itself directly. I suspect there is usually some other authority involved.

Old Dryfoot
04-18-2015, 01:00 PM
^ The way it's done here is by a civilian led, independent organization. Any and everything of a questionable nature is never reviewed by the police themselves.

http://iiobc.ca/

Tom Wilkinson
04-18-2015, 01:37 PM
Not at all. You asked a question and I answered. Maybe one day you will respond in kind, but that doesn't happen, for me or anyone.

Maybe you want to expand on how you feel I am being disingenuous. You made the accusation, back it up.
Still waiting Phillip. Not that it's a surprise.

Phillip Allen
04-18-2015, 02:01 PM
Still waiting Phillip. Not that it's a surprise.

I've been elsewhere... however your comparison is from stealing cookies and comparing them to murder by cop... not hard to see that. furthermore, self investigation, for me, is the justice system investigating itself. a prosecuting atty investing the city police is a direct conflict of interest

Tom Wilkinson
04-18-2015, 02:42 PM
How am i being disengenuous. I don't see most investigations done where there is a conflict of interest. Its seperate departments. We deal with seperate depts under the same umbrella investigating all the time and there isn't a conflict there. I have no reason to beleive this is any different.

You are making simplistic generalizations so I brought it down to the level you seem to want to play at.

Paul G.
04-18-2015, 03:02 PM
The first thing to establish are the facts;

The deputy donated money to the department
He was fishing buddies with the chief of police
He was 73 years old
The suspect was being restrained on the ground by three cops

So far so good, some grounds for investigation of corruption, but hard to pin on him if the department and a white jury comprising of the good citizens of Tulsa close ranks.

This is the crux;

He reached for his taser to do what exactly to an unarmed restrained man? Does the US condone torture of suspects now?
His taser was located on the front of his body but his service pistol was on his hip- he pulls the pistol and squeezes one off into the restrained man.

I've got my opinion

Paul Pless
04-18-2015, 03:05 PM
he pulls the pistol and squeezes one off into the restrained man.

I've got my opinionin an interview on nbc the reserve deputy claims this is the second worst thing that's ever happened to him in his life

oops

Paul G.
04-18-2015, 04:22 PM
Interesting how absolutely self obsessed and out of touch he is with reality he is. Its the worst thing to happen to the victims mom and dad, partner and child for a start- who the hell cares about an aging Barney Fife with a racist streak?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/8168/1978/1600/Don-Knotts--C10042352.jpg

John Smith
04-18-2015, 04:57 PM
^ The way it's done here is by a civilian led, independent organization. Any and everything of a questionable nature is never reviewed by the police themselves.

http://iiobc.ca/

The problem is, sans any witnesses other than cops, the investigation is likely to be based solely on what the cops say. This is when the 'blue wall' becomes a problem. They may also say things to avoid the department being sued.

That's just human, no?

John Smith
04-18-2015, 05:01 PM
I'm reminded of an event during the Reagan presidency. A guy found, and reported, hundreds of Medicare checks being issued to, and cashed by, dead doctors. This was a huge system of Medicare fraud this guy uncovered. As a reward for his efforts, he got fired.

One would have expected President Reagan, who had often claimed he wanted to get fraud out of Medicare, would have gone to bat for this gentleman, but he did not. No one did. As far as I know, the fraud just kept on going.

I cite this as a reason why people may be reluctant to come forward.

Phillip Allen
04-18-2015, 05:48 PM
The problem is, sans any witnesses other than cops, the investigation is likely to be based solely on what the cops say. This is when the 'blue wall' becomes a problem. They may also say things to avoid the department being sued.

That's just human, no?

it's the human condition but still criminal