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David G
04-09-2015, 01:06 PM
From the Economist --

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647625-150-years-after-end-civil-war-states-were-once-confederate-remain?fsrc=scn/fb/te/pe/ed/thepresentpast2


FOR something that ended 150 years ago on April 9th, America’s civil war is strangely newsworthy. Last month the Supreme Court heard a case that asked whether Texas should allow the Sons of Confederate Veterans to put a Confederate flag on their car licence-plates, and two white students were expelled from the University of Oklahoma for singing a song about lynching taught to them by a fraternity founded in the antebellum South.

Many Americans remain fascinated by the conflict. In 2002 the Library of Congress estimated that 70,000 books had been published about it, more than one a day since the war ended. This year at Appomattox courthouse in Virginia 1,000 volunteers will dress up to re-enact the surrender there of General Robert E. Lee.

Yet the war is more than an excuse for dressing up. It created a divide that has yet to disappear. For all the economic dynamism of the South, which over the past few decades has almost caught up with the rest of the country economically (see article (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647629-why-americans-keep-heading-way-they-wish-they-were-dixie)), it remains a region apart, from the bedroom to the ballot box. If you know whether a state was part of the Confederacy, it is possible to make a reasonably accurate guess about where it stands on a range of seemingly unconnected matters, from party politics to gay marriage.



In this section


The present past
They wish they were in Dixie (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647629-why-americans-keep-heading-way-they-wish-they-were-dixie)
The First State comes last (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647642-living-standards-drop-americas-business-capital-first-state-comes-last)
Too many fish in the sea (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647649-dating-market-having-fewer-choices-can-be-more-efficient-too-many-fish-sea)
Religious freedom v gay rights (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647650-debate-which-both-sides-exaggerate-threats-they-face-religious-freedom-v-gay)
Unbroken Reid (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647643-one-bareknuckle-leader-may-be-replaced-another-unbroken-reid)
Why the gun lobby is winning (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647627-prevent-gun-deaths-politicians-offermore-guns-why-gun-lobby-winning)
Reprints (http://www.economist.com/rights)


Related topics


History (http://www.economist.com/topics/history)
American history (http://www.economist.com/topics/american-history)
Culture and lifestyle (http://www.economist.com/topics/culture-and-lifestyle)
World history (http://www.economist.com/topics/world-history)
American civil war (http://www.economist.com/topics/american-civil-war)


Events to mark the anniversary will take place around the country. At Andersonville in Georgia, the site of a Confederate prison camp, a funeral will be held later in the year for the 13,000 Union soldiers who died there of starvation and disease. “With battlefield sites there is some glory for both sides,” says Stephanie Steinhorst, who works for the National Parks Service in Andersonville. “But there’s not much glory in a prison camp.”

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/290-width/images/2015/04/articles/body/screen_shot_2015-04-09_at_14.18.50.png
Our coverage of the war's imminent end, from April of 1865 (http://www.economist.com/node/21648128)

Reynard38
04-09-2015, 01:08 PM
Fart

Michael D. Storey
04-09-2015, 01:20 PM
It is my opinion that the war was very different for people of the South than what it was for people of the North. It was, with few exceptions, not fought in their back yards and the nation did not set out to extract a toll from them at the conclusion.

Keith Wilson
04-09-2015, 01:24 PM
Good article. A lot of current attitudes toward federal power and 'states' rights', surprisingly enough, were shaped by the war and the events following, particularly Reconstruction and the occupation of the former Confederacy by federal troops enforcing civil rights for former slaves. History is sometimes surprisingly persistent, even though people don't always know where their conventional wisdom comes form.

johnw
04-09-2015, 02:34 PM
Good article. A lot of current attitudes toward federal power and 'states' rights', surprisingly enough, were shaped by the war and the events following, particularly Reconstruction and the occupation of the former Confederacy by federal troops enforcing civil rights for former slaves. History is sometimes surprisingly persistent, even though people don't always know where their conventional wisdom comes form.

Not quite with you. What's surprising about states' rights being tied in with this? It was states' rights to keep slavery legal that was the basis for the entire war.

Keith Wilson
04-09-2015, 02:42 PM
No, I guess it isn't really surprising. You'd think it would dissipate a bit more over time, though - OTOH, we aren't fighting a war about it, but one central division in US politics is still between the Confederacy and the Union.

James McMullen
04-09-2015, 02:50 PM
The Confederacy was wrong then, and they're wrong now, to this very day. An embarrassing slice of American society.

johnw
04-09-2015, 02:57 PM
No, I guess it isn't really surprising. You'd think it would dissipate a bit more over time, though - OTOH, we aren't fighting a war about it, but one central division in US politics is still between the Confederacy and the Union.

It quieted down for quite a while, until the work of reconstruction started again with the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Kevin T
04-09-2015, 03:07 PM
The one thing I could never understand is the never ending desire by the Southern states to constantly re-enact Civil War battles, there doesn't seem to be a comparative desire by Union states.

The confusing bit comes from the obvious question: why would you want to continue to re-enact and relive battles in a war that you ultimately lost, not that both sides did''t lose a great deal.

But in most wars and perhaps the Civil War in particular there are winners and losers and the Confederacy did not win, so you take your lumps and you move on, not wallow in defeat for a century and a half. What's up with that?

Reynard38
04-09-2015, 03:15 PM
The Confederacy was wrong then, and they're wrong now, to this very day. An embarrassing slice of American society.

Confederacy now? You mean I shoulda saved all that Confederate money?

Kevin T
04-09-2015, 03:18 PM
Confederacy now? You mean I shoulda saved all that Confederate money?

:d WOW! How old are you Reynard38?

Reynard38
04-09-2015, 03:22 PM
But in most wars and perhaps the Civil War in particular there are winners and losers and the Confederacy did not win, so you take your lumps and you move on, not wallow in defeat for a century and a half. What's up with that?

Mercedes, BMW, NCR, UPS, Boeing, Kia, Hyundai all moved or moving facilities to the "condfederacy"
Yep, were are sure wallowing. All the way to the bank.

But if an occasional redneck with a rebel flag, the heat, or no-see-ums keep y'all away that's ok. Bless your hearts.

David G
04-09-2015, 03:33 PM
Mercedes, BMW, NCR, UPS, Boeing, Kia, Hyundai all moved or moving facilities to the "condfederacy"
Yep, were are sure wallowing. All the way to the bank.

But if an occasional redneck with a rebel flag, the heat, or no-see-ums keep y'all away that's ok. Bless your hearts.

There. There. Don't worry. I'd probably feel a bit defensive, too, in your shoes. But refusing to acknowledge that the culture, society, and politics of today's South is still being affected (admittedly to varying degrees... depending) is flying in the face of the facts. And you KNOW how tedious it is flying into a headwind... and how dangerous it is when that headwind contains something solid.

skuthorp
04-09-2015, 03:33 PM
The Serbs are still fuming about a battle fought in 13something, so the US may have a way to go.

Keith Wilson
04-09-2015, 03:40 PM
Mercedes, BMW, . . . .That's a fairly recent development. For 100 years and more after the end of the war, the former Confederacy was in general quite a lot poorer than the rest of the country, and although the difference is now less, that's still to a large extent true.

The average per capita GDP for the former Confederacy is $37.5K, compared to $53K for the country as a whole. Here are state rankings by per capita GDP.

VA - 11
TX - 14
LA - 21
NC - 27
GA - 33
TN - 35
FL - 40
AL - 45
SC - 47
AK - 48
MS - 50

Michael D. Storey
04-09-2015, 03:52 PM
That's a fairly recent development. For 100 years and more after the end of the war, the former Confederacy was in general quite a lot poorer than the rest of the country, and although the difference is less, tha's still to a large extent true

Sate ranking by per capita GDP

VA - 11
TX - 14
LA - 21
NC - 27
GA - 33
TN - 35
FL - 40
AL - 45
SC - 47
AK - 48
MS - 50


The removal of the revenue-generating capacity that slavery provided to the Southern Economy would be how many trillions of dollars today?

How long would it take for the South to recover?

These questions are not to trivialize the profound immorality of slavery. They are merely an economic inquiry

Keith Wilson
04-09-2015, 03:57 PM
It was certainly a huge disruption, as was the destruction cased by the war. But is a slave economy or a free one more efficient? Why did it take so long to recover? I don't have answers, but they're interesting questions, and I think the answers have somthing to do with highly stratified caste societies and productivity.

Kevin T
04-09-2015, 04:00 PM
Mercedes, BMW, NCR, UPS, Boeing, Kia, Hyundai all moved or moving facilities to the "condfederacy"
Yep, were are sure wallowing. All the way to the bank.

But if an occasional redneck with a rebel flag, the heat, or no-see-ums keep y'all away that's ok. Bless your hearts.

I'm inclined to believe that the corporations you list moved to the south for the lower wages costs. If y'all were "laughing all the way to the bank" I'm left to wonder why the former Confederacy states, as Keith points out, all rank pretty close to the bottom of the list with respect to per capita income.

Oh and by the way, having spent a lot of time "down south," I'm aware of the actual underlying message conveyed by "Bless your hearts." I won't hold the obvious and not so subtle rudeness against you.;)

CK 17
04-09-2015, 04:01 PM
Fart
Farting at our age is risky. . .:d And yes, I lived in newnan, ga for 2 years. I heard "bless your heart" now and then.

johnw
04-09-2015, 04:40 PM
Mercedes, BMW, NCR, UPS, Boeing, Kia, Hyundai all moved or moving facilities to the "condfederacy"
Yep, were are sure wallowing. All the way to the bank.

But if an occasional redneck with a rebel flag, the heat, or no-see-ums keep y'all away that's ok. Bless your hearts.

Still having carpet baggers come down to exploit you, eh?

Keith Wilson
04-09-2015, 04:42 PM
"Bless his heart" is not always ironic, nor insulting. It can be used 100% sincerely as well. (You can talk to my mother, now 88, who grew up in Macon and Savannah if you have questions.)

Kevin T
04-09-2015, 04:59 PM
"Bless his heart" is not always ironic, nor insulting. It can be used 100% sincerely as well. (You can talk to my mother, now 88, who grew up in Macon and Savannah if you have questions.)

Oh I'm fully aware that, "Bless your heart" can be meant quite sincerely, but here in the bilge seemingly innocent, shall we say phraseology, can take on completely different meanings.

I was just having a bit of fun with Reynard38 as when I asked him how old he was after mentioning that he had disposed of a large cache of Confederate money. No harm no foul.;)