Jointer and Thickness Planer Recommendations

[Paul Pless]

I'm in the market for a jointer and a thicknesser.

Opinions please:

1) Which brand do you use?
2) Why?
3) What do you like about it?
4) What don't you like about it?
5) If money and shop space were not limiting factors, what are your dream machines? ;)

thank you in advance,

Paul

[Paul Pless]

I'm in the market for a jointer and a thicknesser.

Opinions please:

1) Which brand do you use?
2) Why?
3) What do you like about it?
4) What don't you like about it?
5) If money and shop space were not limiting factors, what are your dream machines? ;)

thank you in advance,

Paul

[Paul Pless]

I'm in the market for a jointer and a thicknesser.

Opinions please:

1) Which brand do you use?
2) Why?
3) What do you like about it?
4) What don't you like about it?
5) If money and shop space were not limiting factors, what are your dream machines? ;)

thank you in advance,

Paul

[Bruce Hooke]

I've been researching jointers with an eye towards getting one in the not too distant future and here is what I have concluded so far. I'm thinking in terms of an 8" jointer because anything bigger would be very hard to get into my shop and anything smaller would not be as useful. If I had the space I would probably look for a good used 12" jointer. Since that is not viable at this time, I've pretty much narrowed down the 8" candidates to Powermatic (60A), Delta (DJ-20) and General (480). I'm of the school that says buy top of the line the first time because it will work well from the start and for many years into the future. Powermatic seems to be the best of the best, but it is awfully steep at $1800. 10 years ago I would have gone with the Delta with barely a second thought -- my tablesaw, bandsaw, drill press, scroll saw, and thickness planer are all Delta -- but I've heard some reports of Delta's quality slipping, so they are not as much of a shoe-in anymore. So, we'll see. I have also been keeping an eye out for a good used 8" jointer in my area, but they are much less common the used market than 12" jointers. Of course most of the 12" jointers probably have 3 phase motors too.

I've got an older Delta portable thickness planer that works OK, but certainly does not stand out. My major issue with it is the amount of snipe. However, Delta has replaced the model I have with a newer one that has a cutterhead lock, presumably to deal with this issue, so the point is largely moot. If I had the space and the money I would certainly get a larger floor model planer, but it is not a big priority right now so I have not done any research into which one I would get. Even if I had the money I don't think I would go any bigger than a 13" planer because it's pretty rare that I see anything larger than that and I am not likely to be thicknessing vast quantities of lumber anytime soon.

[Bruce Hooke]

I've been researching jointers with an eye towards getting one in the not too distant future and here is what I have concluded so far. I'm thinking in terms of an 8" jointer because anything bigger would be very hard to get into my shop and anything smaller would not be as useful. If I had the space I would probably look for a good used 12" jointer. Since that is not viable at this time, I've pretty much narrowed down the 8" candidates to Powermatic (60A), Delta (DJ-20) and General (480). I'm of the school that says buy top of the line the first time because it will work well from the start and for many years into the future. Powermatic seems to be the best of the best, but it is awfully steep at $1800. 10 years ago I would have gone with the Delta with barely a second thought -- my tablesaw, bandsaw, drill press, scroll saw, and thickness planer are all Delta -- but I've heard some reports of Delta's quality slipping, so they are not as much of a shoe-in anymore. So, we'll see. I have also been keeping an eye out for a good used 8" jointer in my area, but they are much less common the used market than 12" jointers. Of course most of the 12" jointers probably have 3 phase motors too.

I've got an older Delta portable thickness planer that works OK, but certainly does not stand out. My major issue with it is the amount of snipe. However, Delta has replaced the model I have with a newer one that has a cutterhead lock, presumably to deal with this issue, so the point is largely moot. If I had the space and the money I would certainly get a larger floor model planer, but it is not a big priority right now so I have not done any research into which one I would get. Even if I had the money I don't think I would go any bigger than a 13" planer because it's pretty rare that I see anything larger than that and I am not likely to be thicknessing vast quantities of lumber anytime soon.

[Bruce Hooke]

I've been researching jointers with an eye towards getting one in the not too distant future and here is what I have concluded so far. I'm thinking in terms of an 8" jointer because anything bigger would be very hard to get into my shop and anything smaller would not be as useful. If I had the space I would probably look for a good used 12" jointer. Since that is not viable at this time, I've pretty much narrowed down the 8" candidates to Powermatic (60A), Delta (DJ-20) and General (480). I'm of the school that says buy top of the line the first time because it will work well from the start and for many years into the future. Powermatic seems to be the best of the best, but it is awfully steep at $1800. 10 years ago I would have gone with the Delta with barely a second thought -- my tablesaw, bandsaw, drill press, scroll saw, and thickness planer are all Delta -- but I've heard some reports of Delta's quality slipping, so they are not as much of a shoe-in anymore. So, we'll see. I have also been keeping an eye out for a good used 8" jointer in my area, but they are much less common the used market than 12" jointers. Of course most of the 12" jointers probably have 3 phase motors too.

I've got an older Delta portable thickness planer that works OK, but certainly does not stand out. My major issue with it is the amount of snipe. However, Delta has replaced the model I have with a newer one that has a cutterhead lock, presumably to deal with this issue, so the point is largely moot. If I had the space and the money I would certainly get a larger floor model planer, but it is not a big priority right now so I have not done any research into which one I would get. Even if I had the money I don't think I would go any bigger than a 13" planer because it's pretty rare that I see anything larger than that and I am not likely to be thicknessing vast quantities of lumber anytime soon.

[RodB]

I just "bumped" the posting on PLANERS so you can read it on the the first page of this Resources/Product Search forum.

I was goint to get a joiner and a planer until I discussed it with my boat designer.
I was asking him about joiners and he was against them completely. He thinks the joiner is a badly designed tool for what it is supposed to do and said he will never have one again. I should say for clarity, he mostly has built boats for the past 25 years, mainly epoxy/composite construciton. Perhaps if he were building other things, he would require one. Anyway, he is mega experienced and has suggested hundreds of great ideas in completing my own boat, and no matter how I figure out how to solve any problem, his suggestions are always head and shoulders above any of my ideas.

It seems that the most often needed use for a joiner is to get a straight square edge on a board, and he accomplishes this now by temporarily stapling straight edged shop made jig to the working stock and then running it through the tablesaw. He uses a thickness planer quite a lot, he has no use for a joiner.

I thought this over and decided, " Great, I don't have to buy a joiner". Personally, I do not plan on building anything else but boats so I will forgo the joiner until I determine or figure I have a strong need for one.

From my homework on joiners, you sure want to get an 8 inch at the least with as long a table as possible. Jet comes to mind unless you can afford a Powermatic.

RB

[ 12-06-2004, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

I just "bumped" the posting on PLANERS so you can read it on the the first page of this Resources/Product Search forum.

I was goint to get a joiner and a planer until I discussed it with my boat designer.
I was asking him about joiners and he was against them completely. He thinks the joiner is a badly designed tool for what it is supposed to do and said he will never have one again. I should say for clarity, he mostly has built boats for the past 25 years, mainly epoxy/composite construciton. Perhaps if he were building other things, he would require one. Anyway, he is mega experienced and has suggested hundreds of great ideas in completing my own boat, and no matter how I figure out how to solve any problem, his suggestions are always head and shoulders above any of my ideas.

It seems that the most often needed use for a joiner is to get a straight square edge on a board, and he accomplishes this now by temporarily stapling straight edged shop made jig to the working stock and then running it through the tablesaw. He uses a thickness planer quite a lot, he has no use for a joiner.

I thought this over and decided, " Great, I don't have to buy a joiner". Personally, I do not plan on building anything else but boats so I will forgo the joiner until I determine or figure I have a strong need for one.

From my homework on joiners, you sure want to get an 8 inch at the least with as long a table as possible. Jet comes to mind unless you can afford a Powermatic.

RB

[ 12-06-2004, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

I just "bumped" the posting on PLANERS so you can read it on the the first page of this Resources/Product Search forum.

I was goint to get a joiner and a planer until I discussed it with my boat designer.
I was asking him about joiners and he was against them completely. He thinks the joiner is a badly designed tool for what it is supposed to do and said he will never have one again. I should say for clarity, he mostly has built boats for the past 25 years, mainly epoxy/composite construciton. Perhaps if he were building other things, he would require one. Anyway, he is mega experienced and has suggested hundreds of great ideas in completing my own boat, and no matter how I figure out how to solve any problem, his suggestions are always head and shoulders above any of my ideas.

It seems that the most often needed use for a joiner is to get a straight square edge on a board, and he accomplishes this now by temporarily stapling straight edged shop made jig to the working stock and then running it through the tablesaw. He uses a thickness planer quite a lot, he has no use for a joiner.

I thought this over and decided, " Great, I don't have to buy a joiner". Personally, I do not plan on building anything else but boats so I will forgo the joiner until I determine or figure I have a strong need for one.

From my homework on joiners, you sure want to get an 8 inch at the least with as long a table as possible. Jet comes to mind unless you can afford a Powermatic.

RB

[ 12-06-2004, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Bob Smalser]

I have an inexpensive Grizzly 6"X48" jointer and a Grizzly 12" thickness planer that have worked just dandy almost every day for several years, living outdoors in tents. A number of my local finish carpenter friends have Dewalt portable planers they like.

The advantage of the smaller planers is you can plane stock down to a quarter inch or less without using a backer board....I've always had one even when I had a larger planer.

I don't see a substitute for a jointer. Sure, you can get a mediocre straight edge joint out on the TS with a lot of slow effort....as straight as your batten and the length of your fence, anyway...but you can't flatten the face of a cupped or twisted board on anything else but a jointer as the first step before the planer, and that's positively vital if working with less than perfect stock.

The jointer also tapers and bevels with much cleaner surface than a saw.

The only reason you need a jointer larger than 6" is to flatten the faces of boards wider than 6". In boats, using boards wider than that other than for planking (where if you need to flatten it, you shouldn't be using it) isn't such a hot idea because of increased chance for warp.

What I want in a jointer is longer, not necessarily wider. The longer those precision ground tables, the more accurate your edge joint. The more accurate your edge joint, the easier it is to glue or drift. And the better it glues and drifts...the longer it lasts and remains watertight.

There's no competition at all between the accuracy of a joint that can be gotten out on a TS compared to a jointer.

Buy a second set of blades and a magnetic jig to set them.

[ 12-13-2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

I have an inexpensive Grizzly 6"X48" jointer and a Grizzly 12" thickness planer that have worked just dandy almost every day for several years, living outdoors in tents. A number of my local finish carpenter friends have Dewalt portable planers they like.

The advantage of the smaller planers is you can plane stock down to a quarter inch or less without using a backer board....I've always had one even when I had a larger planer.

I don't see a substitute for a jointer. Sure, you can get a mediocre straight edge joint out on the TS with a lot of slow effort....as straight as your batten and the length of your fence, anyway...but you can't flatten the face of a cupped or twisted board on anything else but a jointer as the first step before the planer, and that's positively vital if working with less than perfect stock.

The jointer also tapers and bevels with much cleaner surface than a saw.

The only reason you need a jointer larger than 6" is to flatten the faces of boards wider than 6". In boats, using boards wider than that other than for planking (where if you need to flatten it, you shouldn't be using it) isn't such a hot idea because of increased chance for warp.

What I want in a jointer is longer, not necessarily wider. The longer those precision ground tables, the more accurate your edge joint. The more accurate your edge joint, the easier it is to glue or drift. And the better it glues and drifts...the longer it lasts and remains watertight.

There's no competition at all between the accuracy of a joint that can be gotten out on a TS compared to a jointer.

Buy a second set of blades and a magnetic jig to set them.

[ 12-13-2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

I have an inexpensive Grizzly 6"X48" jointer and a Grizzly 12" thickness planer that have worked just dandy almost every day for several years, living outdoors in tents. A number of my local finish carpenter friends have Dewalt portable planers they like.

The advantage of the smaller planers is you can plane stock down to a quarter inch or less without using a backer board....I've always had one even when I had a larger planer.

I don't see a substitute for a jointer. Sure, you can get a mediocre straight edge joint out on the TS with a lot of slow effort....as straight as your batten and the length of your fence, anyway...but you can't flatten the face of a cupped or twisted board on anything else but a jointer as the first step before the planer, and that's positively vital if working with less than perfect stock.

The jointer also tapers and bevels with much cleaner surface than a saw.

The only reason you need a jointer larger than 6" is to flatten the faces of boards wider than 6". In boats, using boards wider than that other than for planking (where if you need to flatten it, you shouldn't be using it) isn't such a hot idea because of increased chance for warp.

What I want in a jointer is longer, not necessarily wider. The longer those precision ground tables, the more accurate your edge joint. The more accurate your edge joint, the easier it is to glue or drift. And the better it glues and drifts...the longer it lasts and remains watertight.

There's no competition at all between the accuracy of a joint that can be gotten out on a TS compared to a jointer.

Buy a second set of blades and a magnetic jig to set them.

[ 12-13-2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[George Roberts]

Paul Pless ---

I have a Dewalt 735 benchtop planer. It works well for small pieces of lumber. Long or heavy pieces tend to produce snipe by pushing up the out-feed roller.

I don't have a jointer. I do bandsaw a lot of 15" wide boards to 7-3/4" wide so I can plane them and then I glue them back together without jointing.

I could set up my router with a stepped fence to joint board edges, but I don't seem to need to.

[George Roberts]

Paul Pless ---

I have a Dewalt 735 benchtop planer. It works well for small pieces of lumber. Long or heavy pieces tend to produce snipe by pushing up the out-feed roller.

I don't have a jointer. I do bandsaw a lot of 15" wide boards to 7-3/4" wide so I can plane them and then I glue them back together without jointing.

I could set up my router with a stepped fence to joint board edges, but I don't seem to need to.

[George Roberts]

Paul Pless ---

I have a Dewalt 735 benchtop planer. It works well for small pieces of lumber. Long or heavy pieces tend to produce snipe by pushing up the out-feed roller.

I don't have a jointer. I do bandsaw a lot of 15" wide boards to 7-3/4" wide so I can plane them and then I glue them back together without jointing.

I could set up my router with a stepped fence to joint board edges, but I don't seem to need to.

[Doug Wood]

I've got a Yorkcraft 6" jointer that I'm pretty happy with. Fit and finish is very good, the tables are flat and it produces good results. It also has built-in wheels which saved me some $ on a mobility kit. These Yorkcraft machines are available through the folks at Wilke Machinery and they were great to work with. There's also an 8" version, which I came "this close" to buying but in the end, the old budget got in the way. BTW, these Yorkcraft puppies are identical to the Delta 37-195 and 37-380 machines, respectively but for a lot less money.

I splurged a bit on my planer and went with the Dewalt DW735. So far, I haven't detected any snipe when using this machine. It uses an automatic carriage lock that seems to eliminate snipe. It also uses a 3 cutter head design that produces very nice results. One of my favorite features is the unit's chip ejection system. I bought the optional dust collar, attached it to a trash can and it works brilliantly.

[Doug Wood]

I've got a Yorkcraft 6" jointer that I'm pretty happy with. Fit and finish is very good, the tables are flat and it produces good results. It also has built-in wheels which saved me some $ on a mobility kit. These Yorkcraft machines are available through the folks at Wilke Machinery and they were great to work with. There's also an 8" version, which I came "this close" to buying but in the end, the old budget got in the way. BTW, these Yorkcraft puppies are identical to the Delta 37-195 and 37-380 machines, respectively but for a lot less money.

I splurged a bit on my planer and went with the Dewalt DW735. So far, I haven't detected any snipe when using this machine. It uses an automatic carriage lock that seems to eliminate snipe. It also uses a 3 cutter head design that produces very nice results. One of my favorite features is the unit's chip ejection system. I bought the optional dust collar, attached it to a trash can and it works brilliantly.

[Doug Wood]

I've got a Yorkcraft 6" jointer that I'm pretty happy with. Fit and finish is very good, the tables are flat and it produces good results. It also has built-in wheels which saved me some $ on a mobility kit. These Yorkcraft machines are available through the folks at Wilke Machinery and they were great to work with. There's also an 8" version, which I came "this close" to buying but in the end, the old budget got in the way. BTW, these Yorkcraft puppies are identical to the Delta 37-195 and 37-380 machines, respectively but for a lot less money.

I splurged a bit on my planer and went with the Dewalt DW735. So far, I haven't detected any snipe when using this machine. It uses an automatic carriage lock that seems to eliminate snipe. It also uses a 3 cutter head design that produces very nice results. One of my favorite features is the unit's chip ejection system. I bought the optional dust collar, attached it to a trash can and it works brilliantly.

[BrianY]

Your intended use - which you didn't mention - will be a determining factor. For serious home shop shop use, the Delta two speed 13 inch planer works very well for me. It's durable, accurate and easy to set up and use. The two speed option is great, but the finish at the fast speed is ususally good enough so that I rarely use the low speed for anything but highly figured woods. The one drawback is that it is very heavy, so I wouldn't consider it a truly "portable" machine in the same sense as some of the other benchtop planers out there. Yes, you can pick it up and move it if you want to, but you probably don't want to do this too often.

I have a 1950 Delta jointer, so I don't have any personal experience with any of the current machines. However, the folks over on the Oak Factory Tools and Equipment board at http://theoak.com/cgi-bin/tools1/tools1.pl have had much praise for the 8 inch Grizzly G0500 8" x 75", 4 blade cutter head jointer. For $795 it is considered to be the best value for the price. Many of the folks on that board are full time professional cabinet makers or serious semi-pros, so their opinions are valid.

For what it's worth, many folks also report being very satisfied with the jointers from Sunhill - yes they're Chinese (but what isn't these days?) and the manuals are a bit sketchy, but they seem to perform very well.

[BrianY]

Your intended use - which you didn't mention - will be a determining factor. For serious home shop shop use, the Delta two speed 13 inch planer works very well for me. It's durable, accurate and easy to set up and use. The two speed option is great, but the finish at the fast speed is ususally good enough so that I rarely use the low speed for anything but highly figured woods. The one drawback is that it is very heavy, so I wouldn't consider it a truly "portable" machine in the same sense as some of the other benchtop planers out there. Yes, you can pick it up and move it if you want to, but you probably don't want to do this too often.

I have a 1950 Delta jointer, so I don't have any personal experience with any of the current machines. However, the folks over on the Oak Factory Tools and Equipment board at http://theoak.com/cgi-bin/tools1/tools1.pl have had much praise for the 8 inch Grizzly G0500 8" x 75", 4 blade cutter head jointer. For $795 it is considered to be the best value for the price. Many of the folks on that board are full time professional cabinet makers or serious semi-pros, so their opinions are valid.

For what it's worth, many folks also report being very satisfied with the jointers from Sunhill - yes they're Chinese (but what isn't these days?) and the manuals are a bit sketchy, but they seem to perform very well.

[BrianY]

Your intended use - which you didn't mention - will be a determining factor. For serious home shop shop use, the Delta two speed 13 inch planer works very well for me. It's durable, accurate and easy to set up and use. The two speed option is great, but the finish at the fast speed is ususally good enough so that I rarely use the low speed for anything but highly figured woods. The one drawback is that it is very heavy, so I wouldn't consider it a truly "portable" machine in the same sense as some of the other benchtop planers out there. Yes, you can pick it up and move it if you want to, but you probably don't want to do this too often.

I have a 1950 Delta jointer, so I don't have any personal experience with any of the current machines. However, the folks over on the Oak Factory Tools and Equipment board at http://theoak.com/cgi-bin/tools1/tools1.pl have had much praise for the 8 inch Grizzly G0500 8" x 75", 4 blade cutter head jointer. For $795 it is considered to be the best value for the price. Many of the folks on that board are full time professional cabinet makers or serious semi-pros, so their opinions are valid.

For what it's worth, many folks also report being very satisfied with the jointers from Sunhill - yes they're Chinese (but what isn't these days?) and the manuals are a bit sketchy, but they seem to perform very well.

[Bruce Hooke]

I should note that I do lots of woodworking that is not boat related so my opinions come more from the perspective of a cabinetmaker than a straight boatbuilder. Bob does raise a good point that wide boards are relatively rare in boatbuilding. Also, at least for the basic hull and deck, boatbuilding does not require the level of precision & finish that cabinetmaking does. Fancy interior joinery work can call for every bit as much precision as cabinet-making, but not every boat has fancy interior joinery work. So, as Brian noted, a big issue is how you plan to use these tools.

Another big issue is what level of quality you prefer. Everything I have seen indicates that there are always differences between the top-end machines and the lower priced models. The tools may look the same, and they may appear to perform the same in the short run, but there are differences that will show up either in the long run if the tool sees heavy use, or in things like ease of use and level of precision achievable. I'm not saying that you should or should not buy the lower priced machines from places like Grizzly, et al, what I am saying is that you should do so knowing what you are getting and not fool yourself into thinking that you are getting the same thing for less money. You aren't, but you may well be getting a tool that will serve all your needs for less money, which would make it an excellent choice, or a tool that will bug you forevermore because it doesn't work as well as you need it to, in which case a bit more money for the better machine would have been money well spent.

[Bruce Hooke]

I should note that I do lots of woodworking that is not boat related so my opinions come more from the perspective of a cabinetmaker than a straight boatbuilder. Bob does raise a good point that wide boards are relatively rare in boatbuilding. Also, at least for the basic hull and deck, boatbuilding does not require the level of precision & finish that cabinetmaking does. Fancy interior joinery work can call for every bit as much precision as cabinet-making, but not every boat has fancy interior joinery work. So, as Brian noted, a big issue is how you plan to use these tools.

Another big issue is what level of quality you prefer. Everything I have seen indicates that there are always differences between the top-end machines and the lower priced models. The tools may look the same, and they may appear to perform the same in the short run, but there are differences that will show up either in the long run if the tool sees heavy use, or in things like ease of use and level of precision achievable. I'm not saying that you should or should not buy the lower priced machines from places like Grizzly, et al, what I am saying is that you should do so knowing what you are getting and not fool yourself into thinking that you are getting the same thing for less money. You aren't, but you may well be getting a tool that will serve all your needs for less money, which would make it an excellent choice, or a tool that will bug you forevermore because it doesn't work as well as you need it to, in which case a bit more money for the better machine would have been money well spent.

[Bruce Hooke]

I should note that I do lots of woodworking that is not boat related so my opinions come more from the perspective of a cabinetmaker than a straight boatbuilder. Bob does raise a good point that wide boards are relatively rare in boatbuilding. Also, at least for the basic hull and deck, boatbuilding does not require the level of precision & finish that cabinetmaking does. Fancy interior joinery work can call for every bit as much precision as cabinet-making, but not every boat has fancy interior joinery work. So, as Brian noted, a big issue is how you plan to use these tools.

Another big issue is what level of quality you prefer. Everything I have seen indicates that there are always differences between the top-end machines and the lower priced models. The tools may look the same, and they may appear to perform the same in the short run, but there are differences that will show up either in the long run if the tool sees heavy use, or in things like ease of use and level of precision achievable. I'm not saying that you should or should not buy the lower priced machines from places like Grizzly, et al, what I am saying is that you should do so knowing what you are getting and not fool yourself into thinking that you are getting the same thing for less money. You aren't, but you may well be getting a tool that will serve all your needs for less money, which would make it an excellent choice, or a tool that will bug you forevermore because it doesn't work as well as you need it to, in which case a bit more money for the better machine would have been money well spent.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Bob Smalser:

...but you can't flatten the face of a cupped or twisted board on anything else but a jointer as the first step before the planer, and that's positively vital if working with less than perfect stock.If you do anything with rough sawn lumber, or want to do anything with precision using S4S, you need a jointer. The jointer and planer are used together.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Bob Smalser:

...but you can't flatten the face of a cupped or twisted board on anything else but a jointer as the first step before the planer, and that's positively vital if working with less than perfect stock.If you do anything with rough sawn lumber, or want to do anything with precision using S4S, you need a jointer. The jointer and planer are used together.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Bob Smalser:

...but you can't flatten the face of a cupped or twisted board on anything else but a jointer as the first step before the planer, and that's positively vital if working with less than perfect stock.If you do anything with rough sawn lumber, or want to do anything with precision using S4S, you need a jointer. The jointer and planer are used together.

[RodB]

Is there a method for taking cupping out of a board without a joiner? Just wondered?

I know I really pick and choose my lumber and so far have only had to plane a few boards now and then. I selected two10 foot lengths of 1X6's at Lowes in Doug fir and they were straight as a "board"...no pun intended... I planed them to 1/2" and they turned out perfect for my cockpit combing. Yes, these clear grained 1X6's were expensive, about $12 each. I realize this is not high level accuracy joinery, but I have been able to get along so far...

As my skills grow, I have a feeling that I will find the need for more and more equipment to match my capabilities...
and I will begin using rough cut materials simply for budgetary concerns. Its kinda like setting up a small milling operation for practicality and cost savings plus the sophistication of the work will increase.

RB

[ 12-06-2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

Is there a method for taking cupping out of a board without a joiner? Just wondered?

I know I really pick and choose my lumber and so far have only had to plane a few boards now and then. I selected two10 foot lengths of 1X6's at Lowes in Doug fir and they were straight as a "board"...no pun intended... I planed them to 1/2" and they turned out perfect for my cockpit combing. Yes, these clear grained 1X6's were expensive, about $12 each. I realize this is not high level accuracy joinery, but I have been able to get along so far...

As my skills grow, I have a feeling that I will find the need for more and more equipment to match my capabilities...
and I will begin using rough cut materials simply for budgetary concerns. Its kinda like setting up a small milling operation for practicality and cost savings plus the sophistication of the work will increase.

RB

[ 12-06-2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

Is there a method for taking cupping out of a board without a joiner? Just wondered?

I know I really pick and choose my lumber and so far have only had to plane a few boards now and then. I selected two10 foot lengths of 1X6's at Lowes in Doug fir and they were straight as a "board"...no pun intended... I planed them to 1/2" and they turned out perfect for my cockpit combing. Yes, these clear grained 1X6's were expensive, about $12 each. I realize this is not high level accuracy joinery, but I have been able to get along so far...

As my skills grow, I have a feeling that I will find the need for more and more equipment to match my capabilities...
and I will begin using rough cut materials simply for budgetary concerns. Its kinda like setting up a small milling operation for practicality and cost savings plus the sophistication of the work will increase.

RB

[ 12-06-2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by RodB:
Is there a method for taking cupping out of a board without a joiner? Just wondered?Hand planing is, of course, the traditional method for removing cup without a jointer! Other than that, one option I have fiddled around with is to temporarily attach some shims to the center of the concave side of the cupped board to keep the planer from pressing the board flat. Then, once the convex side is flat you can flip the board over, remove the shims and run that side through the planer to flatten it. This can work OK, but it is not a perfect solution by any means.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by RodB:
Is there a method for taking cupping out of a board without a joiner? Just wondered?Hand planing is, of course, the traditional method for removing cup without a jointer! Other than that, one option I have fiddled around with is to temporarily attach some shims to the center of the concave side of the cupped board to keep the planer from pressing the board flat. Then, once the convex side is flat you can flip the board over, remove the shims and run that side through the planer to flatten it. This can work OK, but it is not a perfect solution by any means.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by RodB:
Is there a method for taking cupping out of a board without a joiner? Just wondered?Hand planing is, of course, the traditional method for removing cup without a jointer! Other than that, one option I have fiddled around with is to temporarily attach some shims to the center of the concave side of the cupped board to keep the planer from pressing the board flat. Then, once the convex side is flat you can flip the board over, remove the shims and run that side through the planer to flatten it. This can work OK, but it is not a perfect solution by any means.

[RodB]

In doing the more sophisticated woodworking is it SOP to run all boards through a joiner and planer?

I can see how the process could be driven to higher and higher levels of accuracy. I guess I'm pretty sloppy with my stitch and glue boat...but she seems to look pretty good.

RB

[RodB]

In doing the more sophisticated woodworking is it SOP to run all boards through a joiner and planer?

I can see how the process could be driven to higher and higher levels of accuracy. I guess I'm pretty sloppy with my stitch and glue boat...but she seems to look pretty good.

RB

[RodB]

In doing the more sophisticated woodworking is it SOP to run all boards through a joiner and planer?

I can see how the process could be driven to higher and higher levels of accuracy. I guess I'm pretty sloppy with my stitch and glue boat...but she seems to look pretty good.

RB

[Alan D. Hyde]

This tool is cheaper than a joiner, is quieter, and it provides healthful exercise.

Quite a few remarkable things have been built using this anachronistic device.

I recommend it:

http://www.fine-tools.com/u300306a.jpg

Some old cooper's jointer planes exceed six feet in length.

Alan

[ 12-09-2004, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

This tool is cheaper than a joiner, is quieter, and it provides healthful exercise.

Quite a few remarkable things have been built using this anachronistic device.

I recommend it:

http://www.fine-tools.com/u300306a.jpg

Some old cooper's jointer planes exceed six feet in length.

Alan

[ 12-09-2004, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

This tool is cheaper than a joiner, is quieter, and it provides healthful exercise.

Quite a few remarkable things have been built using this anachronistic device.

I recommend it:

http://www.fine-tools.com/u300306a.jpg

Some old cooper's jointer planes exceed six feet in length.

Alan

[ 12-09-2004, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[BrianY]

Can't speak about stich and googe type of boat building but, for traditional carvel planked craft there are a number of places where a dead flat and true plank or timber is needed.

Rudder Planking
Dead Wood
Harpins
Cabin Sides
Decking Including King Plank
I nervously and with great respect and reverance question the master who knows far more that I can ever hope to about such things: Do these parts really need to be "dead flat and true" in the sense that all pieces need to be the exact same thickness and straightness over their full width and length to within a couple of thousandths of an inch? It seems to me that this is the kind of accuracy that modern machine-using cabinet makers insist upon but hand tool galloots rarely if ever obsess over. As long as the pieces fit together tightly and the joints are sound, what differrnce does it make if the parts vary a bit from the nominal dimensions here and there? Shouldn't the concern for accuracy be in those places where it really matters? After all, millions of wonderful boats have been built in the past with very simple hand tools with wide variations in dimensions of materials. Are we in danger of confusing boat building with cabinet making?

just wondering...

[BrianY]

Can't speak about stich and googe type of boat building but, for traditional carvel planked craft there are a number of places where a dead flat and true plank or timber is needed.

Rudder Planking
Dead Wood
Harpins
Cabin Sides
Decking Including King Plank
I nervously and with great respect and reverance question the master who knows far more that I can ever hope to about such things: Do these parts really need to be "dead flat and true" in the sense that all pieces need to be the exact same thickness and straightness over their full width and length to within a couple of thousandths of an inch? It seems to me that this is the kind of accuracy that modern machine-using cabinet makers insist upon but hand tool galloots rarely if ever obsess over. As long as the pieces fit together tightly and the joints are sound, what differrnce does it make if the parts vary a bit from the nominal dimensions here and there? Shouldn't the concern for accuracy be in those places where it really matters? After all, millions of wonderful boats have been built in the past with very simple hand tools with wide variations in dimensions of materials. Are we in danger of confusing boat building with cabinet making?

just wondering...

[BrianY]

Can't speak about stich and googe type of boat building but, for traditional carvel planked craft there are a number of places where a dead flat and true plank or timber is needed.

Rudder Planking
Dead Wood
Harpins
Cabin Sides
Decking Including King Plank
I nervously and with great respect and reverance question the master who knows far more that I can ever hope to about such things: Do these parts really need to be "dead flat and true" in the sense that all pieces need to be the exact same thickness and straightness over their full width and length to within a couple of thousandths of an inch? It seems to me that this is the kind of accuracy that modern machine-using cabinet makers insist upon but hand tool galloots rarely if ever obsess over. As long as the pieces fit together tightly and the joints are sound, what differrnce does it make if the parts vary a bit from the nominal dimensions here and there? Shouldn't the concern for accuracy be in those places where it really matters? After all, millions of wonderful boats have been built in the past with very simple hand tools with wide variations in dimensions of materials. Are we in danger of confusing boat building with cabinet making?

just wondering...

[Bruce Hooke]

Brian,

I am no boatbuilding expert but I would argue that to do good work the stock often does need to be flat and uniform in thickness from one end to the other and one side to the other, as well as not twisted. A good bit of this has to do with efficiency. It is a lot easier to fit parts together if they are true and square to start with. Remember, the only essential tools for getting a board true, flat and straight are a hand plane, a square, a gauge of some sort to mark off the thickness, and maybe a set of winding sticks to check for twist. So, boatbuiders 200 years ago could do work just as accurately as we can now. In fact, since the watertightness of joints in the old days was often dependendant only on how well the pieces of wood fit together they often had to be more accurate than we do now, since we can throw lots of miricle goops at the problem.

Of course there is still the issue of the level of quality called for in a particular boat. Certainly, a workboat that was not expected to last long could be a lot rougher than a fancy gig. However, even on a well-built workboat I'd bet that where it mattered you would find that the boards were flat and true, even if they have lots of surface blemishes that would never pass on a fancy boat.

What I think has changed is that in the machine age we tend to focus too much on whether a particular piece is exactly 0.625" thick whereas in the pre-machine age someone would probably have been more likely to say "that looks like the right thickness for this part, now I will make this board and these other two boars that same thickness so they all can fit together." It's like the old line that the difference between a metal worker and a wood worker is that the metal worker knows he is working to thousandths of an inch! A tight fitting wood joint needs to be about as accurate as metalwork does, but the way of getting there is less likely to depend on lots of measurements, especially when you are working with hand tools, and especially if you are a skilled woodworker.

[Bruce Hooke]

Brian,

I am no boatbuilding expert but I would argue that to do good work the stock often does need to be flat and uniform in thickness from one end to the other and one side to the other, as well as not twisted. A good bit of this has to do with efficiency. It is a lot easier to fit parts together if they are true and square to start with. Remember, the only essential tools for getting a board true, flat and straight are a hand plane, a square, a gauge of some sort to mark off the thickness, and maybe a set of winding sticks to check for twist. So, boatbuiders 200 years ago could do work just as accurately as we can now. In fact, since the watertightness of joints in the old days was often dependendant only on how well the pieces of wood fit together they often had to be more accurate than we do now, since we can throw lots of miricle goops at the problem.

Of course there is still the issue of the level of quality called for in a particular boat. Certainly, a workboat that was not expected to last long could be a lot rougher than a fancy gig. However, even on a well-built workboat I'd bet that where it mattered you would find that the boards were flat and true, even if they have lots of surface blemishes that would never pass on a fancy boat.

What I think has changed is that in the machine age we tend to focus too much on whether a particular piece is exactly 0.625" thick whereas in the pre-machine age someone would probably have been more likely to say "that looks like the right thickness for this part, now I will make this board and these other two boars that same thickness so they all can fit together." It's like the old line that the difference between a metal worker and a wood worker is that the metal worker knows he is working to thousandths of an inch! A tight fitting wood joint needs to be about as accurate as metalwork does, but the way of getting there is less likely to depend on lots of measurements, especially when you are working with hand tools, and especially if you are a skilled woodworker.

[Bruce Hooke]

Brian,

I am no boatbuilding expert but I would argue that to do good work the stock often does need to be flat and uniform in thickness from one end to the other and one side to the other, as well as not twisted. A good bit of this has to do with efficiency. It is a lot easier to fit parts together if they are true and square to start with. Remember, the only essential tools for getting a board true, flat and straight are a hand plane, a square, a gauge of some sort to mark off the thickness, and maybe a set of winding sticks to check for twist. So, boatbuiders 200 years ago could do work just as accurately as we can now. In fact, since the watertightness of joints in the old days was often dependendant only on how well the pieces of wood fit together they often had to be more accurate than we do now, since we can throw lots of miricle goops at the problem.

Of course there is still the issue of the level of quality called for in a particular boat. Certainly, a workboat that was not expected to last long could be a lot rougher than a fancy gig. However, even on a well-built workboat I'd bet that where it mattered you would find that the boards were flat and true, even if they have lots of surface blemishes that would never pass on a fancy boat.

What I think has changed is that in the machine age we tend to focus too much on whether a particular piece is exactly 0.625" thick whereas in the pre-machine age someone would probably have been more likely to say "that looks like the right thickness for this part, now I will make this board and these other two boars that same thickness so they all can fit together." It's like the old line that the difference between a metal worker and a wood worker is that the metal worker knows he is working to thousandths of an inch! A tight fitting wood joint needs to be about as accurate as metalwork does, but the way of getting there is less likely to depend on lots of measurements, especially when you are working with hand tools, and especially if you are a skilled woodworker.

[Jack Heinlen]

There is nothing like large, stationary power tools. I had the luxury of working in a cabinet shop that had a sixteen inch jointer, and twenty inch planer. Impressive tools, though the jointer was just a bit tempermental. It was made in Poland, and...no Pollock jokes, please.

That said, one can do a lot of work with a six inch or even a four inch. With the fence off the tool can be used as a stationary power planer to remove twist and cup. Not on really wide stock, but on most stock one is likely to encounter.

And totally sacreligious to the proponents of heavy iron, I worked for a number of years with a combination Makita jointer planer that I came to respect. When I first looked at it I was skeptical. It had a six inch jointer with a long bed, and the planer and jointer ran off the same motor, a high speed, direct drive, sucker. We shoved thousands of board feet of pine and hardwood through the planer, and both the jointer and planer had very easy set up for the knives. In three years of hard use it never coughed, and was accurate. To top it off, two relatively husky guys could wrassle it into a pickup and off again, or one could move it to the side of the shop.

If I were setting up a general purpose shop now, in a limited space, I'd consider one of these very versatile tools. I don't know if they are made anymore, but I hope so. The only place they fall down is on really wide stock.

[Jack Heinlen]

There is nothing like large, stationary power tools. I had the luxury of working in a cabinet shop that had a sixteen inch jointer, and twenty inch planer. Impressive tools, though the jointer was just a bit tempermental. It was made in Poland, and...no Pollock jokes, please.

That said, one can do a lot of work with a six inch or even a four inch. With the fence off the tool can be used as a stationary power planer to remove twist and cup. Not on really wide stock, but on most stock one is likely to encounter.

And totally sacreligious to the proponents of heavy iron, I worked for a number of years with a combination Makita jointer planer that I came to respect. When I first looked at it I was skeptical. It had a six inch jointer with a long bed, and the planer and jointer ran off the same motor, a high speed, direct drive, sucker. We shoved thousands of board feet of pine and hardwood through the planer, and both the jointer and planer had very easy set up for the knives. In three years of hard use it never coughed, and was accurate. To top it off, two relatively husky guys could wrassle it into a pickup and off again, or one could move it to the side of the shop.

If I were setting up a general purpose shop now, in a limited space, I'd consider one of these very versatile tools. I don't know if they are made anymore, but I hope so. The only place they fall down is on really wide stock.

[Jack Heinlen]

There is nothing like large, stationary power tools. I had the luxury of working in a cabinet shop that had a sixteen inch jointer, and twenty inch planer. Impressive tools, though the jointer was just a bit tempermental. It was made in Poland, and...no Pollock jokes, please.

That said, one can do a lot of work with a six inch or even a four inch. With the fence off the tool can be used as a stationary power planer to remove twist and cup. Not on really wide stock, but on most stock one is likely to encounter.

And totally sacreligious to the proponents of heavy iron, I worked for a number of years with a combination Makita jointer planer that I came to respect. When I first looked at it I was skeptical. It had a six inch jointer with a long bed, and the planer and jointer ran off the same motor, a high speed, direct drive, sucker. We shoved thousands of board feet of pine and hardwood through the planer, and both the jointer and planer had very easy set up for the knives. In three years of hard use it never coughed, and was accurate. To top it off, two relatively husky guys could wrassle it into a pickup and off again, or one could move it to the side of the shop.

If I were setting up a general purpose shop now, in a limited space, I'd consider one of these very versatile tools. I don't know if they are made anymore, but I hope so. The only place they fall down is on really wide stock.

[Doug Wood]

No dust collection in those days just a humble apprentice, moi, with corn broom sweeping like crazy...Dust collection...an important topic. Whatever machines you end up with Paul, do yourself a big favor and get a good dust collection system for these tools. The dust produced from these things is mucho bad for your health, piles up fast and a shop vac from Sears ain't gonna get it done.

[Doug Wood]

No dust collection in those days just a humble apprentice, moi, with corn broom sweeping like crazy...Dust collection...an important topic. Whatever machines you end up with Paul, do yourself a big favor and get a good dust collection system for these tools. The dust produced from these things is mucho bad for your health, piles up fast and a shop vac from Sears ain't gonna get it done.

[Doug Wood]

No dust collection in those days just a humble apprentice, moi, with corn broom sweeping like crazy...Dust collection...an important topic. Whatever machines you end up with Paul, do yourself a big favor and get a good dust collection system for these tools. The dust produced from these things is mucho bad for your health, piles up fast and a shop vac from Sears ain't gonna get it done.

[Paul Pless]

Thank you all for the well thought out responses.

Here's my situation.

I am very much amatuer and newbie to woodworking. I've been playing around with hand tools ( saws, planes and chisels ) for a couple of years now, and I enjoy hand tools very much and am not looking towards stationary power tools as replacements for hand tools but rather to augment them and their use.

I am in the situation, in that I own a business that has an in house maintenace department, that is well stocked with mechanical and metalworking tools (welders, drill presses, air tools, etc.). Additionally, I have a table saw and a verticle bandsaw, that I can dedicate to woodworking projects only. My thoughts are that I can, with the relatively small investment of a planer and a jointer greatly increase my ability to tackle larger projects. I have two maintenance guys that are also interested and willing to help me with side projects. (Hell, any excuse for those guys to spend money on tools is a good one in their eyes ;) )

I also have available to me, via two neighbors of mine that are sawyers, rough lumber. One reclaims lumber out of old buildings, and the other is a selective specialty and 'urban' sawyer. So I have easy access to quality rough lumber, that needs to be dimensioned.

Projects that I would like to tackle tend towards traditional architectural woodwork, doors, windows, moldings, etc. etc.; some furniture, and small boats.

I am a firm believe in buying quality equipment, and I tend to make purchases that are geared towards professional use. But, when you get to talking about joiners and planers especially things get expensive quickly when you get into the larger and heavier models. Also I like to see and touch something before I buy it. This is a problem in that Wetumpka, Alabama is not exactly a hotbed of stationary power tool retailers.

However, there is a gentleman that services Powermatic and Delta machines and he does hold a small inventory of new and used tools in the back of his shop.

I am currently leaning towards either a 6" or an 8" Powermatic Jointer priced at $699.00 and $1100.00 respectively. And I like Smalser's advice of perhaps buying a portable planer for now, and then buying a larger planer later (shop space become an issue with a 750 pound thicknesser in the middle of it.) I had been leaning towards the Delta 22-580, somewhere in the $450.00 range, but will take a look at the Dewalts and Makitas that are available at Home Depot.

And thanks for the dust collection system suggestion. When talking to my maintence crew, dust collection never comes up. They just clean greasy metal chips off the floor. (that's another issue altogether, requiring me to dedicate one drill press and one bandsaw solely to woodworking projects) I will definately plan on installing dust collection systems the day the tools go in.

So, now you know where I am coming from. Thanks again for the dialogue and I look forward to continueing to hear from you guys.

Thanks,
Paul

[Paul Pless]

Thank you all for the well thought out responses.

Here's my situation.

I am very much amatuer and newbie to woodworking. I've been playing around with hand tools ( saws, planes and chisels ) for a couple of years now, and I enjoy hand tools very much and am not looking towards stationary power tools as replacements for hand tools but rather to augment them and their use.

I am in the situation, in that I own a business that has an in house maintenace department, that is well stocked with mechanical and metalworking tools (welders, drill presses, air tools, etc.). Additionally, I have a table saw and a verticle bandsaw, that I can dedicate to woodworking projects only. My thoughts are that I can, with the relatively small investment of a planer and a jointer greatly increase my ability to tackle larger projects. I have two maintenance guys that are also interested and willing to help me with side projects. (Hell, any excuse for those guys to spend money on tools is a good one in their eyes ;) )

I also have available to me, via two neighbors of mine that are sawyers, rough lumber. One reclaims lumber out of old buildings, and the other is a selective specialty and 'urban' sawyer. So I have easy access to quality rough lumber, that needs to be dimensioned.

Projects that I would like to tackle tend towards traditional architectural woodwork, doors, windows, moldings, etc. etc.; some furniture, and small boats.

I am a firm believe in buying quality equipment, and I tend to make purchases that are geared towards professional use. But, when you get to talking about joiners and planers especially things get expensive quickly when you get into the larger and heavier models. Also I like to see and touch something before I buy it. This is a problem in that Wetumpka, Alabama is not exactly a hotbed of stationary power tool retailers.

However, there is a gentleman that services Powermatic and Delta machines and he does hold a small inventory of new and used tools in the back of his shop.

I am currently leaning towards either a 6" or an 8" Powermatic Jointer priced at $699.00 and $1100.00 respectively. And I like Smalser's advice of perhaps buying a portable planer for now, and then buying a larger planer later (shop space become an issue with a 750 pound thicknesser in the middle of it.) I had been leaning towards the Delta 22-580, somewhere in the $450.00 range, but will take a look at the Dewalts and Makitas that are available at Home Depot.

And thanks for the dust collection system suggestion. When talking to my maintence crew, dust collection never comes up. They just clean greasy metal chips off the floor. (that's another issue altogether, requiring me to dedicate one drill press and one bandsaw solely to woodworking projects) I will definately plan on installing dust collection systems the day the tools go in.

So, now you know where I am coming from. Thanks again for the dialogue and I look forward to continueing to hear from you guys.

Thanks,
Paul

[Paul Pless]

Thank you all for the well thought out responses.

Here's my situation.

I am very much amatuer and newbie to woodworking. I've been playing around with hand tools ( saws, planes and chisels ) for a couple of years now, and I enjoy hand tools very much and am not looking towards stationary power tools as replacements for hand tools but rather to augment them and their use.

I am in the situation, in that I own a business that has an in house maintenace department, that is well stocked with mechanical and metalworking tools (welders, drill presses, air tools, etc.). Additionally, I have a table saw and a verticle bandsaw, that I can dedicate to woodworking projects only. My thoughts are that I can, with the relatively small investment of a planer and a jointer greatly increase my ability to tackle larger projects. I have two maintenance guys that are also interested and willing to help me with side projects. (Hell, any excuse for those guys to spend money on tools is a good one in their eyes ;) )

I also have available to me, via two neighbors of mine that are sawyers, rough lumber. One reclaims lumber out of old buildings, and the other is a selective specialty and 'urban' sawyer. So I have easy access to quality rough lumber, that needs to be dimensioned.

Projects that I would like to tackle tend towards traditional architectural woodwork, doors, windows, moldings, etc. etc.; some furniture, and small boats.

I am a firm believe in buying quality equipment, and I tend to make purchases that are geared towards professional use. But, when you get to talking about joiners and planers especially things get expensive quickly when you get into the larger and heavier models. Also I like to see and touch something before I buy it. This is a problem in that Wetumpka, Alabama is not exactly a hotbed of stationary power tool retailers.

However, there is a gentleman that services Powermatic and Delta machines and he does hold a small inventory of new and used tools in the back of his shop.

I am currently leaning towards either a 6" or an 8" Powermatic Jointer priced at $699.00 and $1100.00 respectively. And I like Smalser's advice of perhaps buying a portable planer for now, and then buying a larger planer later (shop space become an issue with a 750 pound thicknesser in the middle of it.) I had been leaning towards the Delta 22-580, somewhere in the $450.00 range, but will take a look at the Dewalts and Makitas that are available at Home Depot.

And thanks for the dust collection system suggestion. When talking to my maintence crew, dust collection never comes up. They just clean greasy metal chips off the floor. (that's another issue altogether, requiring me to dedicate one drill press and one bandsaw solely to woodworking projects) I will definately plan on installing dust collection systems the day the tools go in.

So, now you know where I am coming from. Thanks again for the dialogue and I look forward to continueing to hear from you guys.

Thanks,
Paul

[RodB]

I have done some homework since I visited here last. I am not trying to start any argument, I just wish to propose a different point of view based on the experience of professionals I have consulted, doing these kinds of things for a living for many many years.

I have considered what all have said here as to the needs and uses for a joiner plus I ran all these comments by a couple of experts, one with over 25 years in carpentry, boatbuilding, cabinet work , etc... I could hardly come up with barely one situation where a joiner was the best way to do a particular job. Additionally, the joiner is one of the most dangerous tools in the shop, large (takes up room) and costly. That money can be put to much better uses in my opinion.

Of course I can only speak for myself. I will forgo a joiner and spend the money on a good planer and bandsaw. I pretty much have had most of my questions answered as to how to achieve most anything I would want to do without a joiner. Its amazing what accuracy can be had with the use of jigs, shop made tools, a table saw with a Forest blade, etc...

I also realize that everyone has their own way of working and that there is not only one way to do anything. I am just offering the point of view that a prospective woodworker/boatbuilder's money may be limited and that it could be better spent than on a joiner... and that not only should the joiner be lowered on the priority list but perhaps be left off of the list.

I just submit this for discussion, as the author of this post is about to spend quite a few bucks on such a machine and may be better off putting those resources elsewhere. At least consider this, how could you get along without a joiner and what other ways could you accomplish the tasks you would be buying the joiner for.

RB

[ 12-07-2004, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

I have done some homework since I visited here last. I am not trying to start any argument, I just wish to propose a different point of view based on the experience of professionals I have consulted, doing these kinds of things for a living for many many years.

I have considered what all have said here as to the needs and uses for a joiner plus I ran all these comments by a couple of experts, one with over 25 years in carpentry, boatbuilding, cabinet work , etc... I could hardly come up with barely one situation where a joiner was the best way to do a particular job. Additionally, the joiner is one of the most dangerous tools in the shop, large (takes up room) and costly. That money can be put to much better uses in my opinion.

Of course I can only speak for myself. I will forgo a joiner and spend the money on a good planer and bandsaw. I pretty much have had most of my questions answered as to how to achieve most anything I would want to do without a joiner. Its amazing what accuracy can be had with the use of jigs, shop made tools, a table saw with a Forest blade, etc...

I also realize that everyone has their own way of working and that there is not only one way to do anything. I am just offering the point of view that a prospective woodworker/boatbuilder's money may be limited and that it could be better spent than on a joiner... and that not only should the joiner be lowered on the priority list but perhaps be left off of the list.

I just submit this for discussion, as the author of this post is about to spend quite a few bucks on such a machine and may be better off putting those resources elsewhere. At least consider this, how could you get along without a joiner and what other ways could you accomplish the tasks you would be buying the joiner for.

RB

[ 12-07-2004, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

I have done some homework since I visited here last. I am not trying to start any argument, I just wish to propose a different point of view based on the experience of professionals I have consulted, doing these kinds of things for a living for many many years.

I have considered what all have said here as to the needs and uses for a joiner plus I ran all these comments by a couple of experts, one with over 25 years in carpentry, boatbuilding, cabinet work , etc... I could hardly come up with barely one situation where a joiner was the best way to do a particular job. Additionally, the joiner is one of the most dangerous tools in the shop, large (takes up room) and costly. That money can be put to much better uses in my opinion.

Of course I can only speak for myself. I will forgo a joiner and spend the money on a good planer and bandsaw. I pretty much have had most of my questions answered as to how to achieve most anything I would want to do without a joiner. Its amazing what accuracy can be had with the use of jigs, shop made tools, a table saw with a Forest blade, etc...

I also realize that everyone has their own way of working and that there is not only one way to do anything. I am just offering the point of view that a prospective woodworker/boatbuilder's money may be limited and that it could be better spent than on a joiner... and that not only should the joiner be lowered on the priority list but perhaps be left off of the list.

I just submit this for discussion, as the author of this post is about to spend quite a few bucks on such a machine and may be better off putting those resources elsewhere. At least consider this, how could you get along without a joiner and what other ways could you accomplish the tasks you would be buying the joiner for.

RB

[ 12-07-2004, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[kc8pql]

Ok, here's a professional cabinetmaker's opinion. I've been working wood for a living since 1968 and opened my own shop in 1978. It's all a matter of speed. You can flatten a plank with hand planes and square the edges quite nicely, but you may spend all morning doing by hand what you can do in a few seconds on a jointer. My customers aren't going to pay for that. If you're working as a hobby, it just depends on how much time you're willing to spend doing that kind of work. I can't imagine, nor have I ever seen, a cabinetshop without a jointer.

[ 12-06-2004, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: kc8pql ]

[kc8pql]

Ok, here's a professional cabinetmaker's opinion. I've been working wood for a living since 1968 and opened my own shop in 1978. It's all a matter of speed. You can flatten a plank with hand planes and square the edges quite nicely, but you may spend all morning doing by hand what you can do in a few seconds on a jointer. My customers aren't going to pay for that. If you're working as a hobby, it just depends on how much time you're willing to spend doing that kind of work. I can't imagine, nor have I ever seen, a cabinetshop without a jointer.

[ 12-06-2004, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: kc8pql ]

[kc8pql]

Ok, here's a professional cabinetmaker's opinion. I've been working wood for a living since 1968 and opened my own shop in 1978. It's all a matter of speed. You can flatten a plank with hand planes and square the edges quite nicely, but you may spend all morning doing by hand what you can do in a few seconds on a jointer. My customers aren't going to pay for that. If you're working as a hobby, it just depends on how much time you're willing to spend doing that kind of work. I can't imagine, nor have I ever seen, a cabinetshop without a jointer.

[ 12-06-2004, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: kc8pql ]

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I have to disagree with RodB on this one. The rough sawn wood Paul will be getting from his neighbors won't have a straight edge to run against the fence of the table saw. You could handplane one edge straight, or make some kind of sled jig, but do you want to do that for every board that you rip on that tablesaw? And I don't think a joiner takes up a lot of room. Put it right next to the tablesaw, they are really used as a team.

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I have to disagree with RodB on this one. The rough sawn wood Paul will be getting from his neighbors won't have a straight edge to run against the fence of the table saw. You could handplane one edge straight, or make some kind of sled jig, but do you want to do that for every board that you rip on that tablesaw? And I don't think a joiner takes up a lot of room. Put it right next to the tablesaw, they are really used as a team.

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I have to disagree with RodB on this one. The rough sawn wood Paul will be getting from his neighbors won't have a straight edge to run against the fence of the table saw. You could handplane one edge straight, or make some kind of sled jig, but do you want to do that for every board that you rip on that tablesaw? And I don't think a joiner takes up a lot of room. Put it right next to the tablesaw, they are really used as a team.

Steven

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Steven Bauer:
Put it right next to the tablesaw, they are really used as a team.That's where mine is. In fact it's the second most used machine in the shop, after the tablesaw, both to square a rough edge before ripping and to smooth and square the cut edge after ripping.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Steven Bauer:
Put it right next to the tablesaw, they are really used as a team.That's where mine is. In fact it's the second most used machine in the shop, after the tablesaw, both to square a rough edge before ripping and to smooth and square the cut edge after ripping.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Steven Bauer:
Put it right next to the tablesaw, they are really used as a team.That's where mine is. In fact it's the second most used machine in the shop, after the tablesaw, both to square a rough edge before ripping and to smooth and square the cut edge after ripping.

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB,

I'm very curious...how do you, or how do the pros you consulted, take a rough sawn board and make it a smooth, square board without a jointer? Or, even if you never buy rough sawn wood, how do you true up the face of a board that has a bit of cup or twist (wind) in it? Also, how do you true up the edge of a board to get it ready to glue to another board? If you use the tablesaw, why do you think that route is better than using a jointer?

A lot depends on the type of work a person is doing. Someone could do a lifetime of carpentry and never really need a jointer. A cabintmaker who largely works with sheet goods might also quite rarely have a need for a jointer. A boatbuilder who is solidly in the epoxy composite camp might also rarely need to do any of the things I listed above and so would not see much point in a jointer either. Someone who never buys rough lumber might not use a jointer as much as someone who regularly deals with rough lumber, but even S4S boards are often less than completely true and IMOOP the best way to make them true is often a jointer.

In my experience, the best way to do the things I listed at the start of this post is by making use of a jointer. If you have other methods for doing these things I would be very interested in hearing them. I would agree that there are many realms of woodworking where the things listed above never need to be done, but there are also lots of types of woodworking where they do...

[ 12-07-2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB,

I'm very curious...how do you, or how do the pros you consulted, take a rough sawn board and make it a smooth, square board without a jointer? Or, even if you never buy rough sawn wood, how do you true up the face of a board that has a bit of cup or twist (wind) in it? Also, how do you true up the edge of a board to get it ready to glue to another board? If you use the tablesaw, why do you think that route is better than using a jointer?

A lot depends on the type of work a person is doing. Someone could do a lifetime of carpentry and never really need a jointer. A cabintmaker who largely works with sheet goods might also quite rarely have a need for a jointer. A boatbuilder who is solidly in the epoxy composite camp might also rarely need to do any of the things I listed above and so would not see much point in a jointer either. Someone who never buys rough lumber might not use a jointer as much as someone who regularly deals with rough lumber, but even S4S boards are often less than completely true and IMOOP the best way to make them true is often a jointer.

In my experience, the best way to do the things I listed at the start of this post is by making use of a jointer. If you have other methods for doing these things I would be very interested in hearing them. I would agree that there are many realms of woodworking where the things listed above never need to be done, but there are also lots of types of woodworking where they do...

[ 12-07-2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB,

I'm very curious...how do you, or how do the pros you consulted, take a rough sawn board and make it a smooth, square board without a jointer? Or, even if you never buy rough sawn wood, how do you true up the face of a board that has a bit of cup or twist (wind) in it? Also, how do you true up the edge of a board to get it ready to glue to another board? If you use the tablesaw, why do you think that route is better than using a jointer?

A lot depends on the type of work a person is doing. Someone could do a lifetime of carpentry and never really need a jointer. A cabintmaker who largely works with sheet goods might also quite rarely have a need for a jointer. A boatbuilder who is solidly in the epoxy composite camp might also rarely need to do any of the things I listed above and so would not see much point in a jointer either. Someone who never buys rough lumber might not use a jointer as much as someone who regularly deals with rough lumber, but even S4S boards are often less than completely true and IMOOP the best way to make them true is often a jointer.

In my experience, the best way to do the things I listed at the start of this post is by making use of a jointer. If you have other methods for doing these things I would be very interested in hearing them. I would agree that there are many realms of woodworking where the things listed above never need to be done, but there are also lots of types of woodworking where they do...

[ 12-07-2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Jack Heinlen]

A jointer is a must in cabinet shop that does commercial work. Period. Flattening stock, gluing panels, fitting doors etc. As has been said, you use it ALL the time.

In a small boat shop, that doesn't do interiors, it isn't necessary at all. Building small boats, a bandsaw, a planer and a table saw work out just fine. In that order. And the table saw doesn't have to be much. I've worked in shops that didn't have one, but they are handy.

IMO.

[Jack Heinlen]

A jointer is a must in cabinet shop that does commercial work. Period. Flattening stock, gluing panels, fitting doors etc. As has been said, you use it ALL the time.

In a small boat shop, that doesn't do interiors, it isn't necessary at all. Building small boats, a bandsaw, a planer and a table saw work out just fine. In that order. And the table saw doesn't have to be much. I've worked in shops that didn't have one, but they are handy.

IMO.

[Jack Heinlen]

A jointer is a must in cabinet shop that does commercial work. Period. Flattening stock, gluing panels, fitting doors etc. As has been said, you use it ALL the time.

In a small boat shop, that doesn't do interiors, it isn't necessary at all. Building small boats, a bandsaw, a planer and a table saw work out just fine. In that order. And the table saw doesn't have to be much. I've worked in shops that didn't have one, but they are handy.

IMO.

[RodB]

First off, theres a lot of varying methods between an industrial sized joiner in a cabinet shop and hand planing boards flat. Thats like comparing apples to rasins. Its not reasonable to compare professional cabinet shop production to the average joe's home shop. The "experts" I consulted wouldn't use the joiner in any case. Also don't confuse tasks that can be done with a planer with a joiner. Dressing edges of several boards after cutting square edges on a tablesaw can easily be done on a planer and they would all be identical because you could do all of them at the same time.

There are ways to accomplish tasks without a large expensive machine for the home builder/woodworker. How about just using a planer on the flats, and a sled or jig to make a quick square cut on the table saw with a really good Forest blade.

And running the rough lumber through the joiner won't get the magic results in just one pass. When it comes to larger boards, I like the philosophy of... always move the smallest object in any task. If the lumber is large, move the saw (circular saw that is). Larger boards, say over 10-14 feet would be a two man job on a joiner which is not the usual case for us individual boatbuilders/woodworkers in our home shop.

How many passes do you have to make with a joiner on a rough cut board to get the square edge, I realize that depends on how rough they are to start, but if you have a jig made up that can be attached to the board PDQ... you can cut her on a good table saw in short order or depending on the jig, with a circular saw. You would minimize loss of material and only one cut would be involved plus the accuracy would be very good. The joiner would require several passes. With the jig method it wouldn't matter how rough the board's edges were.

Why is the joiner fence any more square than my tablesaw blade's alignment to the table? I have checked it plenty and its as square as it gets! Again, don't forget the planer is always there for cleaning up all surfaces.

And certainly working the flat of a board on the joiner has its negatives. Also, most guys are not in the position to have a complete set of mill tools to work rough lumber.

I think it comes down to how people learned the trades and that there are many different ways to accomplish as many tasks. Just because a particular methodology is used most commonly, that does not mean another method may not be just as good and perhaps offer simplicity and cost benefits plus be more practical.

Lets say you are working some 14 foot Honduras Mahogany boards and wish to get a straight edge initially for ripping. If you couldn't run it through a power feed table saw at a mill (which is what I did) you would have to have at least two guys make several runs through the joiner. Or you could use a jig or shop made guide and a circular saw to get your straight edge with one cut. The job suddenly becomes a one man job with the cost of the tools very low.

Example jig for achieveing a straight edge on less than 8' rough cut lumber:
6" X 96" piece of Mansonite with a ash cleat glued and screwed to it...the right distance from the edge that just fits the shoe of your circular saw ...with the saw blade just hanging over the edge of the masonite.

Just clamp this baby to any board and your saw rides like a breeze on the masoite, cutting a nice square edge, straight as an arrow. Pretty damn quick and no joiner, and only one cut. AND, if you use a quality blade for such cuts, you get very smooth results.

If lumber was pretty square already and required very little surfacing, then most likely the joiner would be faster at getting a straight edge on many boards. I am convinced with a few simple methods using jigs, sleds, and clamped on straight edges, I will not miss a joiner. You wouldn't believe the smoothness of the cuts from my Forest blade on my tablesaw.

A final comment, I was trying to think the last time I saw Norm Abrams use a joiner, and it was on "surface planed" boards that he was gluing up for a table top. A good blade on a table saw would have been damn close to those and the boards could have been dressed on that edge all at the same time by being run through the planer.

I rest my case and give up... but I still put the joiner way down on the list of tools I will buy. I have tried to pass on the information I have gleaned from many conversations as clear as I could, perhaps I have not done a very good job.

Edited to answer Bruce's question: I think you would use a planer initially to achieve parallel "flats" , then use a well made shop jig to get perfectly square cuts on the table saw. The jig for example that was like a small sled with a cleat for the miter slot and easily clamped the board down for cutting. If necessary, the edges could be dressed up on the planer.

And as far as dealing with cupped boards, I think the planer can deal with most of this, within limits. Just plane the surface with the arched center up first, then flip her and plane the outside edges on the other. ...a general explanation but how I understood it.

Perhaps if you start out using a joiner all the time, you will not see any of the process without one. If you have questions about alternative methods, email me and you can contact my designer/builder on your own. I was a disbeliever at first too, but he convinced me and I made several of the same arguments others have here. He actually said he will never own a joiner again and could not think of any task a joiner was used for that he could not do better in some other way. After dealing with him for the past three years I am only an awed fan.
RB

[ 12-07-2004, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

First off, theres a lot of varying methods between an industrial sized joiner in a cabinet shop and hand planing boards flat. Thats like comparing apples to rasins. Its not reasonable to compare professional cabinet shop production to the average joe's home shop. The "experts" I consulted wouldn't use the joiner in any case. Also don't confuse tasks that can be done with a planer with a joiner. Dressing edges of several boards after cutting square edges on a tablesaw can easily be done on a planer and they would all be identical because you could do all of them at the same time.

There are ways to accomplish tasks without a large expensive machine for the home builder/woodworker. How about just using a planer on the flats, and a sled or jig to make a quick square cut on the table saw with a really good Forest blade.

And running the rough lumber through the joiner won't get the magic results in just one pass. When it comes to larger boards, I like the philosophy of... always move the smallest object in any task. If the lumber is large, move the saw (circular saw that is). Larger boards, say over 10-14 feet would be a two man job on a joiner which is not the usual case for us individual boatbuilders/woodworkers in our home shop.

How many passes do you have to make with a joiner on a rough cut board to get the square edge, I realize that depends on how rough they are to start, but if you have a jig made up that can be attached to the board PDQ... you can cut her on a good table saw in short order or depending on the jig, with a circular saw. You would minimize loss of material and only one cut would be involved plus the accuracy would be very good. The joiner would require several passes. With the jig method it wouldn't matter how rough the board's edges were.

Why is the joiner fence any more square than my tablesaw blade's alignment to the table? I have checked it plenty and its as square as it gets! Again, don't forget the planer is always there for cleaning up all surfaces.

And certainly working the flat of a board on the joiner has its negatives. Also, most guys are not in the position to have a complete set of mill tools to work rough lumber.

I think it comes down to how people learned the trades and that there are many different ways to accomplish as many tasks. Just because a particular methodology is used most commonly, that does not mean another method may not be just as good and perhaps offer simplicity and cost benefits plus be more practical.

Lets say you are working some 14 foot Honduras Mahogany boards and wish to get a straight edge initially for ripping. If you couldn't run it through a power feed table saw at a mill (which is what I did) you would have to have at least two guys make several runs through the joiner. Or you could use a jig or shop made guide and a circular saw to get your straight edge with one cut. The job suddenly becomes a one man job with the cost of the tools very low.

Example jig for achieveing a straight edge on less than 8' rough cut lumber:
6" X 96" piece of Mansonite with a ash cleat glued and screwed to it...the right distance from the edge that just fits the shoe of your circular saw ...with the saw blade just hanging over the edge of the masonite.

Just clamp this baby to any board and your saw rides like a breeze on the masoite, cutting a nice square edge, straight as an arrow. Pretty damn quick and no joiner, and only one cut. AND, if you use a quality blade for such cuts, you get very smooth results.

If lumber was pretty square already and required very little surfacing, then most likely the joiner would be faster at getting a straight edge on many boards. I am convinced with a few simple methods using jigs, sleds, and clamped on straight edges, I will not miss a joiner. You wouldn't believe the smoothness of the cuts from my Forest blade on my tablesaw.

A final comment, I was trying to think the last time I saw Norm Abrams use a joiner, and it was on "surface planed" boards that he was gluing up for a table top. A good blade on a table saw would have been damn close to those and the boards could have been dressed on that edge all at the same time by being run through the planer.

I rest my case and give up... but I still put the joiner way down on the list of tools I will buy. I have tried to pass on the information I have gleaned from many conversations as clear as I could, perhaps I have not done a very good job.

Edited to answer Bruce's question: I think you would use a planer initially to achieve parallel "flats" , then use a well made shop jig to get perfectly square cuts on the table saw. The jig for example that was like a small sled with a cleat for the miter slot and easily clamped the board down for cutting. If necessary, the edges could be dressed up on the planer.

And as far as dealing with cupped boards, I think the planer can deal with most of this, within limits. Just plane the surface with the arched center up first, then flip her and plane the outside edges on the other. ...a general explanation but how I understood it.

Perhaps if you start out using a joiner all the time, you will not see any of the process without one. If you have questions about alternative methods, email me and you can contact my designer/builder on your own. I was a disbeliever at first too, but he convinced me and I made several of the same arguments others have here. He actually said he will never own a joiner again and could not think of any task a joiner was used for that he could not do better in some other way. After dealing with him for the past three years I am only an awed fan.
RB

[ 12-07-2004, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

First off, theres a lot of varying methods between an industrial sized joiner in a cabinet shop and hand planing boards flat. Thats like comparing apples to rasins. Its not reasonable to compare professional cabinet shop production to the average joe's home shop. The "experts" I consulted wouldn't use the joiner in any case. Also don't confuse tasks that can be done with a planer with a joiner. Dressing edges of several boards after cutting square edges on a tablesaw can easily be done on a planer and they would all be identical because you could do all of them at the same time.

There are ways to accomplish tasks without a large expensive machine for the home builder/woodworker. How about just using a planer on the flats, and a sled or jig to make a quick square cut on the table saw with a really good Forest blade.

And running the rough lumber through the joiner won't get the magic results in just one pass. When it comes to larger boards, I like the philosophy of... always move the smallest object in any task. If the lumber is large, move the saw (circular saw that is). Larger boards, say over 10-14 feet would be a two man job on a joiner which is not the usual case for us individual boatbuilders/woodworkers in our home shop.

How many passes do you have to make with a joiner on a rough cut board to get the square edge, I realize that depends on how rough they are to start, but if you have a jig made up that can be attached to the board PDQ... you can cut her on a good table saw in short order or depending on the jig, with a circular saw. You would minimize loss of material and only one cut would be involved plus the accuracy would be very good. The joiner would require several passes. With the jig method it wouldn't matter how rough the board's edges were.

Why is the joiner fence any more square than my tablesaw blade's alignment to the table? I have checked it plenty and its as square as it gets! Again, don't forget the planer is always there for cleaning up all surfaces.

And certainly working the flat of a board on the joiner has its negatives. Also, most guys are not in the position to have a complete set of mill tools to work rough lumber.

I think it comes down to how people learned the trades and that there are many different ways to accomplish as many tasks. Just because a particular methodology is used most commonly, that does not mean another method may not be just as good and perhaps offer simplicity and cost benefits plus be more practical.

Lets say you are working some 14 foot Honduras Mahogany boards and wish to get a straight edge initially for ripping. If you couldn't run it through a power feed table saw at a mill (which is what I did) you would have to have at least two guys make several runs through the joiner. Or you could use a jig or shop made guide and a circular saw to get your straight edge with one cut. The job suddenly becomes a one man job with the cost of the tools very low.

Example jig for achieveing a straight edge on less than 8' rough cut lumber:
6" X 96" piece of Mansonite with a ash cleat glued and screwed to it...the right distance from the edge that just fits the shoe of your circular saw ...with the saw blade just hanging over the edge of the masonite.

Just clamp this baby to any board and your saw rides like a breeze on the masoite, cutting a nice square edge, straight as an arrow. Pretty damn quick and no joiner, and only one cut. AND, if you use a quality blade for such cuts, you get very smooth results.

If lumber was pretty square already and required very little surfacing, then most likely the joiner would be faster at getting a straight edge on many boards. I am convinced with a few simple methods using jigs, sleds, and clamped on straight edges, I will not miss a joiner. You wouldn't believe the smoothness of the cuts from my Forest blade on my tablesaw.

A final comment, I was trying to think the last time I saw Norm Abrams use a joiner, and it was on "surface planed" boards that he was gluing up for a table top. A good blade on a table saw would have been damn close to those and the boards could have been dressed on that edge all at the same time by being run through the planer.

I rest my case and give up... but I still put the joiner way down on the list of tools I will buy. I have tried to pass on the information I have gleaned from many conversations as clear as I could, perhaps I have not done a very good job.

Edited to answer Bruce's question: I think you would use a planer initially to achieve parallel "flats" , then use a well made shop jig to get perfectly square cuts on the table saw. The jig for example that was like a small sled with a cleat for the miter slot and easily clamped the board down for cutting. If necessary, the edges could be dressed up on the planer.

And as far as dealing with cupped boards, I think the planer can deal with most of this, within limits. Just plane the surface with the arched center up first, then flip her and plane the outside edges on the other. ...a general explanation but how I understood it.

Perhaps if you start out using a joiner all the time, you will not see any of the process without one. If you have questions about alternative methods, email me and you can contact my designer/builder on your own. I was a disbeliever at first too, but he convinced me and I made several of the same arguments others have here. He actually said he will never own a joiner again and could not think of any task a joiner was used for that he could not do better in some other way. After dealing with him for the past three years I am only an awed fan.
RB

[ 12-07-2004, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[PeterSibley]

Now I have an old but sturdy 12" thicknesser,a lovely piece of iron and an equally venerable 6" jointer.Usually a good combination but occassionally a frustrating one.I've just had to true up some 10 and 11 inch wide boards and I didn't want to rip and rejoin them.I ended up doweling them to a true 12" wide board I have sitting around,carefully packed to stop them moving, then feeding them through the planer .It works ,its hairy and I swear each time I do it that its the last time .

Which brings me to my enquiry.I've seen quite a few over and under machines around, ranging from 10" to 15 " or so.The best look very good,the cheap ones look cheap.They do seem like a good idea for me .Has anyone had any experience with them ?

My queries are the obvious ones ...
How good is the jointer table alignment after lots of use?
Ease of setting up dust extraction?
General utility ?
and if anyone knows of an online comparison I would be obliged.

[PeterSibley]

Now I have an old but sturdy 12" thicknesser,a lovely piece of iron and an equally venerable 6" jointer.Usually a good combination but occassionally a frustrating one.I've just had to true up some 10 and 11 inch wide boards and I didn't want to rip and rejoin them.I ended up doweling them to a true 12" wide board I have sitting around,carefully packed to stop them moving, then feeding them through the planer .It works ,its hairy and I swear each time I do it that its the last time .

Which brings me to my enquiry.I've seen quite a few over and under machines around, ranging from 10" to 15 " or so.The best look very good,the cheap ones look cheap.They do seem like a good idea for me .Has anyone had any experience with them ?

My queries are the obvious ones ...
How good is the jointer table alignment after lots of use?
Ease of setting up dust extraction?
General utility ?
and if anyone knows of an online comparison I would be obliged.

[PeterSibley]

Now I have an old but sturdy 12" thicknesser,a lovely piece of iron and an equally venerable 6" jointer.Usually a good combination but occassionally a frustrating one.I've just had to true up some 10 and 11 inch wide boards and I didn't want to rip and rejoin them.I ended up doweling them to a true 12" wide board I have sitting around,carefully packed to stop them moving, then feeding them through the planer .It works ,its hairy and I swear each time I do it that its the last time .

Which brings me to my enquiry.I've seen quite a few over and under machines around, ranging from 10" to 15 " or so.The best look very good,the cheap ones look cheap.They do seem like a good idea for me .Has anyone had any experience with them ?

My queries are the obvious ones ...
How good is the jointer table alignment after lots of use?
Ease of setting up dust extraction?
General utility ?
and if anyone knows of an online comparison I would be obliged.

[Ron Williamson]

Peter
Regarding those over and unders,I know a guy who bought a used MiniMax(by SCM,definitely not crap)and spent the better part of three days trying to get the infeed side up to parallel(sp?).There was no adjustment in the ways and in desperation he resorted to shim stock.
R
PS the noise it made was ungodly.

[Ron Williamson]

Peter
Regarding those over and unders,I know a guy who bought a used MiniMax(by SCM,definitely not crap)and spent the better part of three days trying to get the infeed side up to parallel(sp?).There was no adjustment in the ways and in desperation he resorted to shim stock.
R
PS the noise it made was ungodly.

[Ron Williamson]

Peter
Regarding those over and unders,I know a guy who bought a used MiniMax(by SCM,definitely not crap)and spent the better part of three days trying to get the infeed side up to parallel(sp?).There was no adjustment in the ways and in desperation he resorted to shim stock.
R
PS the noise it made was ungodly.

[Bob Smalser]

I ran all these comments by a couple of experts, one with over 25 years in carpentry, boatbuilding, cabinet work , etc... I could hardly come up with barely one situation where a joiner was the best way to do a particular job. Really?

I love "experts". I love "master carpenters/cabinetmakers/boatbuilders" even better.

I was a soldier once. The only "experts" I know are dead, and the only "masters" I know belong to trade guilds in Europe.

My Grandfather used to say there are tradesmen with 30 years of experience and there are tradesmen with 5 years of experience and 25 years of practice at it.

I'd be more discriminating in whose advice I drew such firm conclusions from. Some folks like my woodworking illustrations but I wouldn't presume to advise anyone on photography, because I really don't know diddly about it.

[ 12-07-2004, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

I ran all these comments by a couple of experts, one with over 25 years in carpentry, boatbuilding, cabinet work , etc... I could hardly come up with barely one situation where a joiner was the best way to do a particular job. Really?

I love "experts". I love "master carpenters/cabinetmakers/boatbuilders" even better.

I was a soldier once. The only "experts" I know are dead, and the only "masters" I know belong to trade guilds in Europe.

My Grandfather used to say there are tradesmen with 30 years of experience and there are tradesmen with 5 years of experience and 25 years of practice at it.

I'd be more discriminating in whose advice I drew such firm conclusions from. Some folks like my woodworking illustrations but I wouldn't presume to advise anyone on photography, because I really don't know diddly about it.

[ 12-07-2004, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

I ran all these comments by a couple of experts, one with over 25 years in carpentry, boatbuilding, cabinet work , etc... I could hardly come up with barely one situation where a joiner was the best way to do a particular job. Really?

I love "experts". I love "master carpenters/cabinetmakers/boatbuilders" even better.

I was a soldier once. The only "experts" I know are dead, and the only "masters" I know belong to trade guilds in Europe.

My Grandfather used to say there are tradesmen with 30 years of experience and there are tradesmen with 5 years of experience and 25 years of practice at it.

I'd be more discriminating in whose advice I drew such firm conclusions from. Some folks like my woodworking illustrations but I wouldn't presume to advise anyone on photography, because I really don't know diddly about it.

[ 12-07-2004, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[RodB]

When you have gone though many many woodworking issues and boatbuilding issues over time, you get a feel for the depth and breadth of a man. I can only decide for myself and may change my mind some day, however, for now I will go with what has got me here.

And , he is an "expert" with very good solutions to many tasks that I have experienced first hand.

Besides, this is just a suggestion of a point of view. I did not say it is the only way... its just thrown out there for discussions sake.

RB

[RodB]

When you have gone though many many woodworking issues and boatbuilding issues over time, you get a feel for the depth and breadth of a man. I can only decide for myself and may change my mind some day, however, for now I will go with what has got me here.

And , he is an "expert" with very good solutions to many tasks that I have experienced first hand.

Besides, this is just a suggestion of a point of view. I did not say it is the only way... its just thrown out there for discussions sake.

RB

[RodB]

When you have gone though many many woodworking issues and boatbuilding issues over time, you get a feel for the depth and breadth of a man. I can only decide for myself and may change my mind some day, however, for now I will go with what has got me here.

And , he is an "expert" with very good solutions to many tasks that I have experienced first hand.

Besides, this is just a suggestion of a point of view. I did not say it is the only way... its just thrown out there for discussions sake.

RB

[Bob Smalser]

Rod, there are several accomplished professionals chiming in here....they have all had occasion to work without a power jointer...and they are being polite.

Granddad's point was that a nimrod like me needed to learn to evaluate my potential employers from looking at their work, not listening to them talk.

[Bob Smalser]

Rod, there are several accomplished professionals chiming in here....they have all had occasion to work without a power jointer...and they are being polite.

Granddad's point was that a nimrod like me needed to learn to evaluate my potential employers from looking at their work, not listening to them talk.

[Paul Pless]

Rod,

I'd like to comment on your preferred method of jointing long boards. The method you use is the method that I currently use because I have no jointer. What I am looking to improve upon is efficiency, accuracy, and safety.

a. While you pointed out that a jointer is not the safest of all stationary power tools, its a hell of lot safer than ripping extremely long boards with a skil saw.

b. Why deal with building an accurate jig to joint boards with, when a jointer is essentially a highly accurate fixture holding a cutting tool.

c. Efficiency, this speaks for itself.

Just some thoughts from a true neophyte to these tools. My number one concern when I go into the shop is safety, followed by going in there to have an enjoyable and relaxing time.

Thanks,

Paul

[Paul Pless]

Rod,

I'd like to comment on your preferred method of jointing long boards. The method you use is the method that I currently use because I have no jointer. What I am looking to improve upon is efficiency, accuracy, and safety.

a. While you pointed out that a jointer is not the safest of all stationary power tools, its a hell of lot safer than ripping extremely long boards with a skil saw.

b. Why deal with building an accurate jig to joint boards with, when a jointer is essentially a highly accurate fixture holding a cutting tool.

c. Efficiency, this speaks for itself.

Just some thoughts from a true neophyte to these tools. My number one concern when I go into the shop is safety, followed by going in there to have an enjoyable and relaxing time.

Thanks,

Paul

[Bob Smalser]

Rod, there are several accomplished professionals chiming in here....they have all had occasion to work without a power jointer...and they are being polite.

Granddad's point was that a nimrod like me needed to learn to evaluate my potential employers from looking at their work, not listening to them talk.

[Paul Pless]

Rod,

I'd like to comment on your preferred method of jointing long boards. The method you use is the method that I currently use because I have no jointer. What I am looking to improve upon is efficiency, accuracy, and safety.

a. While you pointed out that a jointer is not the safest of all stationary power tools, its a hell of lot safer than ripping extremely long boards with a skil saw.

b. Why deal with building an accurate jig to joint boards with, when a jointer is essentially a highly accurate fixture holding a cutting tool.

c. Efficiency, this speaks for itself.

Just some thoughts from a true neophyte to these tools. My number one concern when I go into the shop is safety, followed by going in there to have an enjoyable and relaxing time.

Thanks,

Paul

[George Roberts]

RodB ---

You asked: "In doing the more sophisticated woodworking is it SOP to run all boards through a joiner and planer?"

The answer is Sometimes.

Production work requires flat surfaces and square edges.

One-off work requires only that the parts fit. The tops of the legs are out of square by 1/16" in 1-1/2". The table top edge is out of flat by 1/8".

http://www.robertscpa.com/kayaks/PieCrustTable.JPG

[George Roberts]

RodB ---

You asked: "In doing the more sophisticated woodworking is it SOP to run all boards through a joiner and planer?"

The answer is Sometimes.

Production work requires flat surfaces and square edges.

One-off work requires only that the parts fit. The tops of the legs are out of square by 1/16" in 1-1/2". The table top edge is out of flat by 1/8".

http://www.robertscpa.com/kayaks/PieCrustTable.JPG

[George Roberts]

RodB ---

You asked: "In doing the more sophisticated woodworking is it SOP to run all boards through a joiner and planer?"

The answer is Sometimes.

Production work requires flat surfaces and square edges.

One-off work requires only that the parts fit. The tops of the legs are out of square by 1/16" in 1-1/2". The table top edge is out of flat by 1/8".

http://www.robertscpa.com/kayaks/PieCrustTable.JPG

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB,

First let me say that I have gotten along without a jointer for quite a few years now (except for occassions when I have been in other shops that have had one) due to lack of space and money, so I am always looking for ways to do the things that a jointer would do.

I would actually agree with you that a tablesaw can do a pretty good job at squaring up the edges of a board. Even with a jointer at hand, if I had a long board with a very irregular edge I might well feed the board through the tablesaw first (or use a Skilsaw) to get a straight edge, and depending on what I am doing, that might well be sufficient. If it was not, a hand plane could take care of fine tuning the edge pretty quickly. Or, as you noted, if I had a bunch of boards that needed to be the same width I might be able to use the planer (but that would be hard to do with one board).

However, I think you and your friend are making the common mistake of thinking that a jointer is most important for truing up edges. IMOOP it is most important for truing up the faces of boards, and in this use, in my opinion, it has no real substitute in the power tool world. Whenever I've fed a cupped board into a planer, the planer has pressed the board down thus reducing the cup temporarily as the board goes through the planer, and then when it comes out the other side you end up with a smooth, but still cupped board. This happens whether the cup is up or down and it happens even if you take very light cuts. Sure you can come up with a sled such as the one Peter described, or shim the board as I described earlier, but in my experience both of these routes are slow and the results are never good enough to not need some more work with a hand plane if a really flat board is called for.

Now, I think a key point is that for someone who mostly works with sheet goods, or mostly buys already surfaced lumber that is pretty flat to start with (or a variety of other situations), it may be quite rare that they would need to true up the face of a board, so for such a person a jointer, and especially a big jointer, which is what you need if you are going to surface wide boards, may well be not that important. So, especially if that person is not trying to make a living from their shop, a jointer might well be a relatively far down the list of stationary power tools to buy. I suspect that if you asked your friend about surfacing cupped boards he would say that he rarely if ever encounters this situation because of the nature of the work he does and the wood he buys.

So, the point I would take from your comments, which I think is a fair point, is that someone who is contemplating buying a jointer should think about the work they do and how important a jointer would be in doing that work. I suspect most (but not all) professional woodworkers (not carpenters) would have a need for one, and that many home shop types (but certainly not all) would find one useful too, especially once they learned what it can do. I know that I would love to have a jointere despite the fact that I have been making things for many years without one.

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB,

First let me say that I have gotten along without a jointer for quite a few years now (except for occassions when I have been in other shops that have had one) due to lack of space and money, so I am always looking for ways to do the things that a jointer would do.

I would actually agree with you that a tablesaw can do a pretty good job at squaring up the edges of a board. Even with a jointer at hand, if I had a long board with a very irregular edge I might well feed the board through the tablesaw first (or use a Skilsaw) to get a straight edge, and depending on what I am doing, that might well be sufficient. If it was not, a hand plane could take care of fine tuning the edge pretty quickly. Or, as you noted, if I had a bunch of boards that needed to be the same width I might be able to use the planer (but that would be hard to do with one board).

However, I think you and your friend are making the common mistake of thinking that a jointer is most important for truing up edges. IMOOP it is most important for truing up the faces of boards, and in this use, in my opinion, it has no real substitute in the power tool world. Whenever I've fed a cupped board into a planer, the planer has pressed the board down thus reducing the cup temporarily as the board goes through the planer, and then when it comes out the other side you end up with a smooth, but still cupped board. This happens whether the cup is up or down and it happens even if you take very light cuts. Sure you can come up with a sled such as the one Peter described, or shim the board as I described earlier, but in my experience both of these routes are slow and the results are never good enough to not need some more work with a hand plane if a really flat board is called for.

Now, I think a key point is that for someone who mostly works with sheet goods, or mostly buys already surfaced lumber that is pretty flat to start with (or a variety of other situations), it may be quite rare that they would need to true up the face of a board, so for such a person a jointer, and especially a big jointer, which is what you need if you are going to surface wide boards, may well be not that important. So, especially if that person is not trying to make a living from their shop, a jointer might well be a relatively far down the list of stationary power tools to buy. I suspect that if you asked your friend about surfacing cupped boards he would say that he rarely if ever encounters this situation because of the nature of the work he does and the wood he buys.

So, the point I would take from your comments, which I think is a fair point, is that someone who is contemplating buying a jointer should think about the work they do and how important a jointer would be in doing that work. I suspect most (but not all) professional woodworkers (not carpenters) would have a need for one, and that many home shop types (but certainly not all) would find one useful too, especially once they learned what it can do. I know that I would love to have a jointere despite the fact that I have been making things for many years without one.

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB,

First let me say that I have gotten along without a jointer for quite a few years now (except for occassions when I have been in other shops that have had one) due to lack of space and money, so I am always looking for ways to do the things that a jointer would do.

I would actually agree with you that a tablesaw can do a pretty good job at squaring up the edges of a board. Even with a jointer at hand, if I had a long board with a very irregular edge I might well feed the board through the tablesaw first (or use a Skilsaw) to get a straight edge, and depending on what I am doing, that might well be sufficient. If it was not, a hand plane could take care of fine tuning the edge pretty quickly. Or, as you noted, if I had a bunch of boards that needed to be the same width I might be able to use the planer (but that would be hard to do with one board).

However, I think you and your friend are making the common mistake of thinking that a jointer is most important for truing up edges. IMOOP it is most important for truing up the faces of boards, and in this use, in my opinion, it has no real substitute in the power tool world. Whenever I've fed a cupped board into a planer, the planer has pressed the board down thus reducing the cup temporarily as the board goes through the planer, and then when it comes out the other side you end up with a smooth, but still cupped board. This happens whether the cup is up or down and it happens even if you take very light cuts. Sure you can come up with a sled such as the one Peter described, or shim the board as I described earlier, but in my experience both of these routes are slow and the results are never good enough to not need some more work with a hand plane if a really flat board is called for.

Now, I think a key point is that for someone who mostly works with sheet goods, or mostly buys already surfaced lumber that is pretty flat to start with (or a variety of other situations), it may be quite rare that they would need to true up the face of a board, so for such a person a jointer, and especially a big jointer, which is what you need if you are going to surface wide boards, may well be not that important. So, especially if that person is not trying to make a living from their shop, a jointer might well be a relatively far down the list of stationary power tools to buy. I suspect that if you asked your friend about surfacing cupped boards he would say that he rarely if ever encounters this situation because of the nature of the work he does and the wood he buys.

So, the point I would take from your comments, which I think is a fair point, is that someone who is contemplating buying a jointer should think about the work they do and how important a jointer would be in doing that work. I suspect most (but not all) professional woodworkers (not carpenters) would have a need for one, and that many home shop types (but certainly not all) would find one useful too, especially once they learned what it can do. I know that I would love to have a jointere despite the fact that I have been making things for many years without one.

[Doug Wood]

I would actually agree with you that a tablesaw can do a pretty good job at squaring up the edges of a board. Even with a jointer at hand, if I had a long board with a very irregular edge I might well feed the board through the tablesaw first (or use a Skilsaw) to get a straight edge...I'm a complete woodworking novice but personally, I would never try to run a board through a TS that didn't have a jointed edge running along the fence. Maybe it's just my lack of experience but isn't doing this just begging for kick back?

[Doug Wood]

I would actually agree with you that a tablesaw can do a pretty good job at squaring up the edges of a board. Even with a jointer at hand, if I had a long board with a very irregular edge I might well feed the board through the tablesaw first (or use a Skilsaw) to get a straight edge...I'm a complete woodworking novice but personally, I would never try to run a board through a TS that didn't have a jointed edge running along the fence. Maybe it's just my lack of experience but isn't doing this just begging for kick back?

[Doug Wood]

I would actually agree with you that a tablesaw can do a pretty good job at squaring up the edges of a board. Even with a jointer at hand, if I had a long board with a very irregular edge I might well feed the board through the tablesaw first (or use a Skilsaw) to get a straight edge...I'm a complete woodworking novice but personally, I would never try to run a board through a TS that didn't have a jointed edge running along the fence. Maybe it's just my lack of experience but isn't doing this just begging for kick back?

[Alan D. Hyde]

There are 2000 hours in the standard U.S. work year (40 hours x 50 weeks).

If someone, suppose, makes $60,000, then he is being paid at a rate of 60,000 divided by 2,000 or $30 per hour.

To buy a $900 power tool will thus cost him 30 hours of work, if we forget about taxes. After taxes (say 15.3% FICA/FUTA and 15% avg. inc. tx. = about 30%), to have that $900, he'll need to earn a gross of 1.43 (1 divided by 70%) x 900 or $1,285.71. This means, in reality, 42.86 hours of work to buy that power tool. And, that's ignoring sales tax...

Then, of course, the joiner must be stored, cared for, and powered. All of which costs more.

You can get GREAT used planes at garage sales for $5 to $20 dollars. Some exercise never hurts us. You can do equally good work with the plane, if you develop some skill and pay attention. You'll tend to work more contemplatively, and make your mistakes more slowly, while seeing more and learning more. AND, this is a HOBBY. You're not running a production shop.

Just how many hours of planing will you have to save to justify that power joiner?

Alan

[Alan D. Hyde]

There are 2000 hours in the standard U.S. work year (40 hours x 50 weeks).

If someone, suppose, makes $60,000, then he is being paid at a rate of 60,000 divided by 2,000 or $30 per hour.

To buy a $900 power tool will thus cost him 30 hours of work, if we forget about taxes. After taxes (say 15.3% FICA/FUTA and 15% avg. inc. tx. = about 30%), to have that $900, he'll need to earn a gross of 1.43 (1 divided by 70%) x 900 or $1,285.71. This means, in reality, 42.86 hours of work to buy that power tool. And, that's ignoring sales tax...

Then, of course, the joiner must be stored, cared for, and powered. All of which costs more.

You can get GREAT used planes at garage sales for $5 to $20 dollars. Some exercise never hurts us. You can do equally good work with the plane, if you develop some skill and pay attention. You'll tend to work more contemplatively, and make your mistakes more slowly, while seeing more and learning more. AND, this is a HOBBY. You're not running a production shop.

Just how many hours of planing will you have to save to justify that power joiner?

Alan

[Alan D. Hyde]

There are 2000 hours in the standard U.S. work year (40 hours x 50 weeks).

If someone, suppose, makes $60,000, then he is being paid at a rate of 60,000 divided by 2,000 or $30 per hour.

To buy a $900 power tool will thus cost him 30 hours of work, if we forget about taxes. After taxes (say 15.3% FICA/FUTA and 15% avg. inc. tx. = about 30%), to have that $900, he'll need to earn a gross of 1.43 (1 divided by 70%) x 900 or $1,285.71. This means, in reality, 42.86 hours of work to buy that power tool. And, that's ignoring sales tax...

Then, of course, the joiner must be stored, cared for, and powered. All of which costs more.

You can get GREAT used planes at garage sales for $5 to $20 dollars. Some exercise never hurts us. You can do equally good work with the plane, if you develop some skill and pay attention. You'll tend to work more contemplatively, and make your mistakes more slowly, while seeing more and learning more. AND, this is a HOBBY. You're not running a production shop.

Just how many hours of planing will you have to save to justify that power joiner?

Alan

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Doug Wood:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I would actually agree with you that a tablesaw can do a pretty good job at squaring up the edges of a board. Even with a jointer at hand, if I had a long board with a very irregular edge I might well feed the board through the tablesaw first (or use a Skilsaw) to get a straight edge...I'm a complete woodworking novice but personally, I would never try to run a board through a TS that didn't have a jointed edge running along the fence. Maybe it's just my lack of experience but isn't doing this just begging for kick back?</font>[/QUOTE]One way to do this is to tack a guide strip down to the board to run against the fence, or tack the board down to another straight board, or some variation on these concepts. RodB has suggested some other methods that achieve pretty much the same end.

The point is that if you have a board with, say, the bark edges still on it then a jointer may not be the best way to straighten the edge. First off, there may not be a good enough edge on the board to support the board as it goes across the planer; and second, the bark is likely to contain grit that would do a number on the jointer blade. In such a situation some other tool, whether it is a bandsaw, a tablesaw or a skilsaw, would probably, IMOOP, be a better place to start.

Edited to delete a controversial method of work...

[ 12-07-2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Doug Wood:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I would actually agree with you that a tablesaw can do a pretty good job at squaring up the edges of a board. Even with a jointer at hand, if I had a long board with a very irregular edge I might well feed the board through the tablesaw first (or use a Skilsaw) to get a straight edge...I'm a complete woodworking novice but personally, I would never try to run a board through a TS that didn't have a jointed edge running along the fence. Maybe it's just my lack of experience but isn't doing this just begging for kick back?</font>[/QUOTE]One way to do this is to tack a guide strip down to the board to run against the fence, or tack the board down to another straight board, or some variation on these concepts. RodB has suggested some other methods that achieve pretty much the same end.

The point is that if you have a board with, say, the bark edges still on it then a jointer may not be the best way to straighten the edge. First off, there may not be a good enough edge on the board to support the board as it goes across the planer; and second, the bark is likely to contain grit that would do a number on the jointer blade. In such a situation some other tool, whether it is a bandsaw, a tablesaw or a skilsaw, would probably, IMOOP, be a better place to start.

Edited to delete a controversial method of work...

[ 12-07-2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Doug Wood:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I would actually agree with you that a tablesaw can do a pretty good job at squaring up the edges of a board. Even with a jointer at hand, if I had a long board with a very irregular edge I might well feed the board through the tablesaw first (or use a Skilsaw) to get a straight edge...I'm a complete woodworking novice but personally, I would never try to run a board through a TS that didn't have a jointed edge running along the fence. Maybe it's just my lack of experience but isn't doing this just begging for kick back?</font>[/QUOTE]One way to do this is to tack a guide strip down to the board to run against the fence, or tack the board down to another straight board, or some variation on these concepts. RodB has suggested some other methods that achieve pretty much the same end.

The point is that if you have a board with, say, the bark edges still on it then a jointer may not be the best way to straighten the edge. First off, there may not be a good enough edge on the board to support the board as it goes across the planer; and second, the bark is likely to contain grit that would do a number on the jointer blade. In such a situation some other tool, whether it is a bandsaw, a tablesaw or a skilsaw, would probably, IMOOP, be a better place to start.

Edited to delete a controversial method of work...

[ 12-07-2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Alan,

I'd bet that most professional cabinetmakers could save that 43 hours or so in less than a year and have a tool that would last a lifetime. By save, I mean they could do the same work 43 hours faster by having a jointer rather than using a hand plane. For an amateur the equation is harder because, of course, it depends how they value their time. None-the-less, your "equation" is a good one to keep in mind...

- Bruce

[Bruce Hooke]

Alan,

I'd bet that most professional cabinetmakers could save that 43 hours or so in less than a year and have a tool that would last a lifetime. By save, I mean they could do the same work 43 hours faster by having a jointer rather than using a hand plane. For an amateur the equation is harder because, of course, it depends how they value their time. None-the-less, your "equation" is a good one to keep in mind...

- Bruce

[Bruce Hooke]

Alan,

I'd bet that most professional cabinetmakers could save that 43 hours or so in less than a year and have a tool that would last a lifetime. By save, I mean they could do the same work 43 hours faster by having a jointer rather than using a hand plane. For an amateur the equation is harder because, of course, it depends how they value their time. None-the-less, your "equation" is a good one to keep in mind...

- Bruce

[Doug Wood]

Yes, if I was dealing with a live edge board, I wouldn't run that through the jointer first either but I also wouldn't free-hand this through the TS. I'm sure it's been done but no thanks. I would, as you noted, first attach a guide board to the live edge lumber to make a straight cut but I'd certainly edge joint the guide piece first.

[Doug Wood]

Yes, if I was dealing with a live edge board, I wouldn't run that through the jointer first either but I also wouldn't free-hand this through the TS. I'm sure it's been done but no thanks. I would, as you noted, first attach a guide board to the live edge lumber to make a straight cut but I'd certainly edge joint the guide piece first.

[Doug Wood]

Yes, if I was dealing with a live edge board, I wouldn't run that through the jointer first either but I also wouldn't free-hand this through the TS. I'm sure it's been done but no thanks. I would, as you noted, first attach a guide board to the live edge lumber to make a straight cut but I'd certainly edge joint the guide piece first.

[Paul Pless]

Alan,

Your point is very well taken, and as I've said before, I do enjoy the use of hand tools. However, from a time stand point, I also take satisfaction in completing a project. To those ends powertools can help.

Thanks,

Paul

[Paul Pless]

Alan,

Your point is very well taken, and as I've said before, I do enjoy the use of hand tools. However, from a time stand point, I also take satisfaction in completing a project. To those ends powertools can help.

Thanks,

Paul

[Paul Pless]

Alan,

Your point is very well taken, and as I've said before, I do enjoy the use of hand tools. However, from a time stand point, I also take satisfaction in completing a project. To those ends powertools can help.

Thanks,

Paul

[Jack Heinlen]

Just a few comments on face jointing boards. Your jointer doesn't have to be as wide as the stock. It's a common misconception with people who haven't used the tool much that you need full width and just sorta plop the board down and run it through until it's flat. Sometimes it does work out that way, but often not.

The easiest way to explain it is to imagine a hand power planer being used at the bench to take out cup or twist. Turn it upside down and you've got a jointer without its fence. It takes a little hand and eye practice - and sometimes with really wide or heavy stock, a helper - but you can quickly relieve a high corner or edge on stock that is much wider than the bed of the jointer. And you don't need a perfectly flat face for that first run through your surfacer, you just need it flat enough that the pinch rollers on the planer aren't going to distort the board.

Even when working with a tool that is wide enough to take the whole width of the board, selective jointing to remove a high corner or edge is common.

Something that becomes second nature as you work with the tool, and will come easily for those who've done these operations with hand tools, is to evaluate the stock with the idea of ending up after each procedure with as much usable stock as possible. Unless, of course, you've got alot of excess. Often, however, you are starting with stock that is roughed at only a quarter inch over your finished dimension, or isn't much wider. Looking at the stock, deciding where it might be advantageous to cross cut, or to rip, or to rip off a badly cupped edge etc., and then skillful jointing can make the difference between having enough and not.

Thinking of the jointer as a tool that you run the stock over and it comes out straight or flat or sqaure is a beginning, but a bit backwards. It is used that way sometimes, but is also much more subtle than that. Think of it also as a plane that can remove alot of stock quickly and selectively. That it can also flatten or straighten with machine precision, at any angle you want etc. is a bonus. And always look carefully at the stock before you start.

I hope that made sense. They're not so easy, these word thingies. ;) And it's just a scattershot at the potential subtleties. It's much easier to spend some time working next to someone who's skilled.

[Jack Heinlen]

Just a few comments on face jointing boards. Your jointer doesn't have to be as wide as the stock. It's a common misconception with people who haven't used the tool much that you need full width and just sorta plop the board down and run it through until it's flat. Sometimes it does work out that way, but often not.

The easiest way to explain it is to imagine a hand power planer being used at the bench to take out cup or twist. Turn it upside down and you've got a jointer without its fence. It takes a little hand and eye practice - and sometimes with really wide or heavy stock, a helper - but you can quickly relieve a high corner or edge on stock that is much wider than the bed of the jointer. And you don't need a perfectly flat face for that first run through your surfacer, you just need it flat enough that the pinch rollers on the planer aren't going to distort the board.

Even when working with a tool that is wide enough to take the whole width of the board, selective jointing to remove a high corner or edge is common.

Something that becomes second nature as you work with the tool, and will come easily for those who've done these operations with hand tools, is to evaluate the stock with the idea of ending up after each procedure with as much usable stock as possible. Unless, of course, you've got alot of excess. Often, however, you are starting with stock that is roughed at only a quarter inch over your finished dimension, or isn't much wider. Looking at the stock, deciding where it might be advantageous to cross cut, or to rip, or to rip off a badly cupped edge etc., and then skillful jointing can make the difference between having enough and not.

Thinking of the jointer as a tool that you run the stock over and it comes out straight or flat or sqaure is a beginning, but a bit backwards. It is used that way sometimes, but is also much more subtle than that. Think of it also as a plane that can remove alot of stock quickly and selectively. That it can also flatten or straighten with machine precision, at any angle you want etc. is a bonus. And always look carefully at the stock before you start.

I hope that made sense. They're not so easy, these word thingies. ;) And it's just a scattershot at the potential subtleties. It's much easier to spend some time working next to someone who's skilled.

[Jack Heinlen]

Just a few comments on face jointing boards. Your jointer doesn't have to be as wide as the stock. It's a common misconception with people who haven't used the tool much that you need full width and just sorta plop the board down and run it through until it's flat. Sometimes it does work out that way, but often not.

The easiest way to explain it is to imagine a hand power planer being used at the bench to take out cup or twist. Turn it upside down and you've got a jointer without its fence. It takes a little hand and eye practice - and sometimes with really wide or heavy stock, a helper - but you can quickly relieve a high corner or edge on stock that is much wider than the bed of the jointer. And you don't need a perfectly flat face for that first run through your surfacer, you just need it flat enough that the pinch rollers on the planer aren't going to distort the board.

Even when working with a tool that is wide enough to take the whole width of the board, selective jointing to remove a high corner or edge is common.

Something that becomes second nature as you work with the tool, and will come easily for those who've done these operations with hand tools, is to evaluate the stock with the idea of ending up after each procedure with as much usable stock as possible. Unless, of course, you've got alot of excess. Often, however, you are starting with stock that is roughed at only a quarter inch over your finished dimension, or isn't much wider. Looking at the stock, deciding where it might be advantageous to cross cut, or to rip, or to rip off a badly cupped edge etc., and then skillful jointing can make the difference between having enough and not.

Thinking of the jointer as a tool that you run the stock over and it comes out straight or flat or sqaure is a beginning, but a bit backwards. It is used that way sometimes, but is also much more subtle than that. Think of it also as a plane that can remove alot of stock quickly and selectively. That it can also flatten or straighten with machine precision, at any angle you want etc. is a bonus. And always look carefully at the stock before you start.

I hope that made sense. They're not so easy, these word thingies. ;) And it's just a scattershot at the potential subtleties. It's much easier to spend some time working next to someone who's skilled.

[PeterSibley]

Anything is possible Jack, doesn't mean everyone wants to do it.That's the reason for my over and under enquiry.A full width jointer would be very useful.

[PeterSibley]

Anything is possible Jack, doesn't mean everyone wants to do it.That's the reason for my over and under enquiry.A full width jointer would be very useful.

[PeterSibley]

Anything is possible Jack, doesn't mean everyone wants to do it.That's the reason for my over and under enquiry.A full width jointer would be very useful.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Pretty sneaky Alan. Quoting a price for a professional jointer then talking about woodworking as a hobby. No hobbyist that I know would even think of buying a $900 jointer. This Delta is way less than half that price:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006K00Q.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Features:
2-year limited warranty on machines, parts, and accessories
Heavy duty 3/4-horsepower, 115/23-Volt, single-phase induction-type motor
Cast iron wedge bed design for solid support with fully adjustable infeed and outfeed tables that operate on gibbed dovetail ways to compensate for wear
Lever-actuated infeed table, with lock handle, for quick, easy height adjustment
Removable on-off switch to prevent unauthorized use of machine

Delta JT360 Shopmaster 6" Stationary Jointer
List Price: $492.51
Amazon.com's Price: $349.00

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Pretty sneaky Alan. Quoting a price for a professional jointer then talking about woodworking as a hobby. No hobbyist that I know would even think of buying a $900 jointer. This Delta is way less than half that price:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006K00Q.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Features:
2-year limited warranty on machines, parts, and accessories
Heavy duty 3/4-horsepower, 115/23-Volt, single-phase induction-type motor
Cast iron wedge bed design for solid support with fully adjustable infeed and outfeed tables that operate on gibbed dovetail ways to compensate for wear
Lever-actuated infeed table, with lock handle, for quick, easy height adjustment
Removable on-off switch to prevent unauthorized use of machine

Delta JT360 Shopmaster 6" Stationary Jointer
List Price: $492.51
Amazon.com's Price: $349.00

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Pretty sneaky Alan. Quoting a price for a professional jointer then talking about woodworking as a hobby. No hobbyist that I know would even think of buying a $900 jointer. This Delta is way less than half that price:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006K00Q.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Features:
2-year limited warranty on machines, parts, and accessories
Heavy duty 3/4-horsepower, 115/23-Volt, single-phase induction-type motor
Cast iron wedge bed design for solid support with fully adjustable infeed and outfeed tables that operate on gibbed dovetail ways to compensate for wear
Lever-actuated infeed table, with lock handle, for quick, easy height adjustment
Removable on-off switch to prevent unauthorized use of machine

Delta JT360 Shopmaster 6" Stationary Jointer
List Price: $492.51
Amazon.com's Price: $349.00

Steven

[Dave Fleming]

Sorry Folks I will not condone by associaton, using unsafe methods with any machine. I am pulling my posts from this thread.

[ 12-07-2004, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Dave Fleming]

Sorry Folks I will not condone by associaton, using unsafe methods with any machine. I am pulling my posts from this thread.

[ 12-07-2004, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Dave Fleming]

Sorry Folks I will not condone by associaton, using unsafe methods with any machine. I am pulling my posts from this thread.

[ 12-07-2004, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Doug Wood]

Steven - one problem with the Shopmaster unit you show is, IMO, that it doesn't have an enclosed base. While it looks like it has a dust chute, I'll bet dust fly's from that thing in every direction.

[Doug Wood]

Steven - one problem with the Shopmaster unit you show is, IMO, that it doesn't have an enclosed base. While it looks like it has a dust chute, I'll bet dust fly's from that thing in every direction.

[Doug Wood]

Steven - one problem with the Shopmaster unit you show is, IMO, that it doesn't have an enclosed base. While it looks like it has a dust chute, I'll bet dust fly's from that thing in every direction.

[gary porter]

Well I'm not touching the above post either,,, no way. People have always gotten by with it,,or have they? Its dangerous and not necessary.

Paul, I notice that you didn't mention boatbuilding in the projects so I assume that your are at least going to be doing some non boat work as in furniture. As everyone has mentioned it can be done by hand and magic sure,,,but why? There is, even with owning a jointer and planer, a time to do hand work and even pre jointing by hand and winding sticks etc. Point is there is no good reason to not have a good jointer and planer. Personally I use Power Matic , an 8 inch model 60 and a model 100 planer. Love em. Delta makes a good long bed jointer and General make some good equipment as well. Many folks have had good luck with the Grizz line but I've known others who have not. I guess my first recomendation now would probably be the Delta long bed 8" and any of the portable planers if thats how you want to start.
Have fun and good luck.
Gary

[gary porter]

Well I'm not touching the above post either,,, no way. People have always gotten by with it,,or have they? Its dangerous and not necessary.

Paul, I notice that you didn't mention boatbuilding in the projects so I assume that your are at least going to be doing some non boat work as in furniture. As everyone has mentioned it can be done by hand and magic sure,,,but why? There is, even with owning a jointer and planer, a time to do hand work and even pre jointing by hand and winding sticks etc. Point is there is no good reason to not have a good jointer and planer. Personally I use Power Matic , an 8 inch model 60 and a model 100 planer. Love em. Delta makes a good long bed jointer and General make some good equipment as well. Many folks have had good luck with the Grizz line but I've known others who have not. I guess my first recomendation now would probably be the Delta long bed 8" and any of the portable planers if thats how you want to start.
Have fun and good luck.
Gary

[gary porter]

Well I'm not touching the above post either,,, no way. People have always gotten by with it,,or have they? Its dangerous and not necessary.

Paul, I notice that you didn't mention boatbuilding in the projects so I assume that your are at least going to be doing some non boat work as in furniture. As everyone has mentioned it can be done by hand and magic sure,,,but why? There is, even with owning a jointer and planer, a time to do hand work and even pre jointing by hand and winding sticks etc. Point is there is no good reason to not have a good jointer and planer. Personally I use Power Matic , an 8 inch model 60 and a model 100 planer. Love em. Delta makes a good long bed jointer and General make some good equipment as well. Many folks have had good luck with the Grizz line but I've known others who have not. I guess my first recomendation now would probably be the Delta long bed 8" and any of the portable planers if thats how you want to start.
Have fun and good luck.
Gary

[Dave Fleming]

Bruce and Syd, there are over 9000 registered Forum subscribers plus who knows how many who lurk and read.

The skill set runs, in my opinion, from rank amateur to seasoned pro.

I try to be aware of this when'er I post some method of doing.

I feel that any posting that shows a, shall we say controversial method of work, should be clearly labeled as such by the poster complete with a full explanation of why and under what circumstances such a potentionaly dangerous method was/is used.

Frankly, you try that freehanding through the table saw in any yard I worked at and you would be out the gate so fast your head would spin.

"Cowboying" was not acceptable under any circumstances.

Just too bloody ( perfect word, eh ) dangerous. Imagine a shop with several people working and that method is attempted BUT something goes terribly wrong. The piece of wood is torn from the hands of the person attempting the method and goes shooting across the shop and strikes a person working at their bench! Hits them in the back right at the spine.

Think YOU can fill in the rest?????

[ 12-07-2004, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Dave Fleming]

Bruce and Syd, there are over 9000 registered Forum subscribers plus who knows how many who lurk and read.

The skill set runs, in my opinion, from rank amateur to seasoned pro.

I try to be aware of this when'er I post some method of doing.

I feel that any posting that shows a, shall we say controversial method of work, should be clearly labeled as such by the poster complete with a full explanation of why and under what circumstances such a potentionaly dangerous method was/is used.

Frankly, you try that freehanding through the table saw in any yard I worked at and you would be out the gate so fast your head would spin.

"Cowboying" was not acceptable under any circumstances.

Just too bloody ( perfect word, eh ) dangerous. Imagine a shop with several people working and that method is attempted BUT something goes terribly wrong. The piece of wood is torn from the hands of the person attempting the method and goes shooting across the shop and strikes a person working at their bench! Hits them in the back right at the spine.

Think YOU can fill in the rest?????

[ 12-07-2004, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Dave Fleming]

Bruce and Syd, there are over 9000 registered Forum subscribers plus who knows how many who lurk and read.

The skill set runs, in my opinion, from rank amateur to seasoned pro.

I try to be aware of this when'er I post some method of doing.

I feel that any posting that shows a, shall we say controversial method of work, should be clearly labeled as such by the poster complete with a full explanation of why and under what circumstances such a potentionaly dangerous method was/is used.

Frankly, you try that freehanding through the table saw in any yard I worked at and you would be out the gate so fast your head would spin.

"Cowboying" was not acceptable under any circumstances.

Just too bloody ( perfect word, eh ) dangerous. Imagine a shop with several people working and that method is attempted BUT something goes terribly wrong. The piece of wood is torn from the hands of the person attempting the method and goes shooting across the shop and strikes a person working at their bench! Hits them in the back right at the spine.

Think YOU can fill in the rest?????

[ 12-07-2004, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Good point Dave. I think what I will do is just delete that part of my post. Syd can decide what he wants to do...

[Bruce Hooke]

Good point Dave. I think what I will do is just delete that part of my post. Syd can decide what he wants to do...

[Bruce Hooke]

Good point Dave. I think what I will do is just delete that part of my post. Syd can decide what he wants to do...

[Jack Heinlen]

I thought of adding a safety addendum to my post about face jointing, and will now. Doing the procedures I spoke of involves taking the guard off the tool. Even with the guard on one shouldn't run their bare hands above the stock over the cutter head when face jointing. With it off one has to be mindful of the fact that there is no guard, and part of the cutter is liable to be whirring away, right there. It sounds self evident, but if you usually work with the guard on, well... Thinner stock, in particular, has been known to shatter. You can usually work by keeping hands well ahead of or behind the cutter head, but if your hand is going over the cutter, use a push stick. And if what I've said isn't clear, wait until someone who knows can show you.

And Peter,

What I spoke of is common practice, if, perhaps, not well described. Even if you never have stock wider than the bed there are times when jointing selective parts of the stock is called for, be it for tapering, or relieving a high corner or what have you.

I've not read much about jointer technique. Any good books to recommend, anyone? When I first started working wood for money we had a four inch Rockwell, and I learned a lot of tricks out of necessity, but I'm sure I've only learned the little I needed to get by.

[Jack Heinlen]

I thought of adding a safety addendum to my post about face jointing, and will now. Doing the procedures I spoke of involves taking the guard off the tool. Even with the guard on one shouldn't run their bare hands above the stock over the cutter head when face jointing. With it off one has to be mindful of the fact that there is no guard, and part of the cutter is liable to be whirring away, right there. It sounds self evident, but if you usually work with the guard on, well... Thinner stock, in particular, has been known to shatter. You can usually work by keeping hands well ahead of or behind the cutter head, but if your hand is going over the cutter, use a push stick. And if what I've said isn't clear, wait until someone who knows can show you.

And Peter,

What I spoke of is common practice, if, perhaps, not well described. Even if you never have stock wider than the bed there are times when jointing selective parts of the stock is called for, be it for tapering, or relieving a high corner or what have you.

I've not read much about jointer technique. Any good books to recommend, anyone? When I first started working wood for money we had a four inch Rockwell, and I learned a lot of tricks out of necessity, but I'm sure I've only learned the little I needed to get by.

[Jack Heinlen]

I thought of adding a safety addendum to my post about face jointing, and will now. Doing the procedures I spoke of involves taking the guard off the tool. Even with the guard on one shouldn't run their bare hands above the stock over the cutter head when face jointing. With it off one has to be mindful of the fact that there is no guard, and part of the cutter is liable to be whirring away, right there. It sounds self evident, but if you usually work with the guard on, well... Thinner stock, in particular, has been known to shatter. You can usually work by keeping hands well ahead of or behind the cutter head, but if your hand is going over the cutter, use a push stick. And if what I've said isn't clear, wait until someone who knows can show you.

And Peter,

What I spoke of is common practice, if, perhaps, not well described. Even if you never have stock wider than the bed there are times when jointing selective parts of the stock is called for, be it for tapering, or relieving a high corner or what have you.

I've not read much about jointer technique. Any good books to recommend, anyone? When I first started working wood for money we had a four inch Rockwell, and I learned a lot of tricks out of necessity, but I'm sure I've only learned the little I needed to get by.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I have a 15" chiwanese thickness planer, 2 hp 220V. It works great. I had to play with it for a bit.

I am in the market for a jointer, and I am going to buy an 8 inch 220v long bed. Probably Chiwanese again unless I can find a domestic used, which seems nye onto impossible around here.

In my middle age, the thing I love best about having a few bucks is buying real tools. They save time, and do a great job. ;)

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I have a 15" chiwanese thickness planer, 2 hp 220V. It works great. I had to play with it for a bit.

I am in the market for a jointer, and I am going to buy an 8 inch 220v long bed. Probably Chiwanese again unless I can find a domestic used, which seems nye onto impossible around here.

In my middle age, the thing I love best about having a few bucks is buying real tools. They save time, and do a great job. ;)

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I have a 15" chiwanese thickness planer, 2 hp 220V. It works great. I had to play with it for a bit.

I am in the market for a jointer, and I am going to buy an 8 inch 220v long bed. Probably Chiwanese again unless I can find a domestic used, which seems nye onto impossible around here.

In my middle age, the thing I love best about having a few bucks is buying real tools. They save time, and do a great job. ;)

[Jack Heinlen]

I too have used the jointer techniques Jack describes but would STRONGLY caution anyone about trying them from just a written discription.

Those of us who have been doing this stuff for a long time need to remember that things that have become second nature for us may be down right dangerous to someone who doesn't fully understand what they're doing and the risks involved.
Yep. It's probably irresponsible to even talk about them without Ken's STRONG caution. The techniques are there, and can be done, safely, even routinely, but if at all unsure, don't. I learned about them first twenty years ago on that four inch, and later, with run of the mill twisted boards, as well as large flitches, on the sixteen, but don't try it at home until you have a good grasp of where you are going.

Even after it had become routine, to take the fence and guard off a sixteen inch jointer, crank it up and essentially carve the stock, caused a pause for reflection.

Work safe, know you limits, and keep your wits about you.

[Jack Heinlen]

I too have used the jointer techniques Jack describes but would STRONGLY caution anyone about trying them from just a written discription.

Those of us who have been doing this stuff for a long time need to remember that things that have become second nature for us may be down right dangerous to someone who doesn't fully understand what they're doing and the risks involved.
Yep. It's probably irresponsible to even talk about them without Ken's STRONG caution. The techniques are there, and can be done, safely, even routinely, but if at all unsure, don't. I learned about them first twenty years ago on that four inch, and later, with run of the mill twisted boards, as well as large flitches, on the sixteen, but don't try it at home until you have a good grasp of where you are going.

Even after it had become routine, to take the fence and guard off a sixteen inch jointer, crank it up and essentially carve the stock, caused a pause for reflection.

Work safe, know you limits, and keep your wits about you.

[Jack Heinlen]

I too have used the jointer techniques Jack describes but would STRONGLY caution anyone about trying them from just a written discription.

Those of us who have been doing this stuff for a long time need to remember that things that have become second nature for us may be down right dangerous to someone who doesn't fully understand what they're doing and the risks involved.
Yep. It's probably irresponsible to even talk about them without Ken's STRONG caution. The techniques are there, and can be done, safely, even routinely, but if at all unsure, don't. I learned about them first twenty years ago on that four inch, and later, with run of the mill twisted boards, as well as large flitches, on the sixteen, but don't try it at home until you have a good grasp of where you are going.

Even after it had become routine, to take the fence and guard off a sixteen inch jointer, crank it up and essentially carve the stock, caused a pause for reflection.

Work safe, know you limits, and keep your wits about you.

[RodB]

Now this is some dialogue on the importance and use of joiners!!! I really enjoy this exchange of ideas...some are contemplating out of the box ideas.

I am learning a lot and plan to forward this post to some folks.

I thought that working the flat of boards on the joiner was the absolute worse of its operations as far as control and getting good results, at least without a power feeder...?

I would assume from all of the above that using a well made tablesaw shop jig used on stock 8 to 12 feet would be acceptable to most here, for cutting square edges on rough or not so rough boards. With such a jig with a cleat running in the mitre slot, you could clamp any board that required a square, straight edge PDQ...and make one pass through your tablesaw and your done.

But how about the longer boards? Whats wrong with the idea mentioned above of popping a line and using a long batten temporarily stapled to the work piece as a guide to cut the straight edge. Just lay the board on sawhorses, (keep your straight edge laying on the sawhorses during this process so that it is handy and easily set up on each board) clamp it down, staple the guide on...and cut away! The straight edge/batten would be a 12-15 foot piece of 1/2" plywood say 6-8 inches wide.

How is this not safe? How is a circular saw run against a straight edge dangerous? I think I could get a straight edge on several 12-15' boards much quicker than those using a joiner and I would do it by myself, the joiner would require two people.

Bruce Hooke addressed the cupping problem above, perhaps the use of a hand planer here and there would complete the solution.

Hey Allen, you make a great point also.

I am keeping an open mind willing to consider any other concepts.

RB

[ 12-08-2004, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

Now this is some dialogue on the importance and use of joiners!!! I really enjoy this exchange of ideas...some are contemplating out of the box ideas.

I am learning a lot and plan to forward this post to some folks.

I thought that working the flat of boards on the joiner was the absolute worse of its operations as far as control and getting good results, at least without a power feeder...?

I would assume from all of the above that using a well made tablesaw shop jig used on stock 8 to 12 feet would be acceptable to most here, for cutting square edges on rough or not so rough boards. With such a jig with a cleat running in the mitre slot, you could clamp any board that required a square, straight edge PDQ...and make one pass through your tablesaw and your done.

But how about the longer boards? Whats wrong with the idea mentioned above of popping a line and using a long batten temporarily stapled to the work piece as a guide to cut the straight edge. Just lay the board on sawhorses, (keep your straight edge laying on the sawhorses during this process so that it is handy and easily set up on each board) clamp it down, staple the guide on...and cut away! The straight edge/batten would be a 12-15 foot piece of 1/2" plywood say 6-8 inches wide.

How is this not safe? How is a circular saw run against a straight edge dangerous? I think I could get a straight edge on several 12-15' boards much quicker than those using a joiner and I would do it by myself, the joiner would require two people.

Bruce Hooke addressed the cupping problem above, perhaps the use of a hand planer here and there would complete the solution.

Hey Allen, you make a great point also.

I am keeping an open mind willing to consider any other concepts.

RB

[ 12-08-2004, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

Now this is some dialogue on the importance and use of joiners!!! I really enjoy this exchange of ideas...some are contemplating out of the box ideas.

I am learning a lot and plan to forward this post to some folks.

I thought that working the flat of boards on the joiner was the absolute worse of its operations as far as control and getting good results, at least without a power feeder...?

I would assume from all of the above that using a well made tablesaw shop jig used on stock 8 to 12 feet would be acceptable to most here, for cutting square edges on rough or not so rough boards. With such a jig with a cleat running in the mitre slot, you could clamp any board that required a square, straight edge PDQ...and make one pass through your tablesaw and your done.

But how about the longer boards? Whats wrong with the idea mentioned above of popping a line and using a long batten temporarily stapled to the work piece as a guide to cut the straight edge. Just lay the board on sawhorses, (keep your straight edge laying on the sawhorses during this process so that it is handy and easily set up on each board) clamp it down, staple the guide on...and cut away! The straight edge/batten would be a 12-15 foot piece of 1/2" plywood say 6-8 inches wide.

How is this not safe? How is a circular saw run against a straight edge dangerous? I think I could get a straight edge on several 12-15' boards much quicker than those using a joiner and I would do it by myself, the joiner would require two people.

Bruce Hooke addressed the cupping problem above, perhaps the use of a hand planer here and there would complete the solution.

Hey Allen, you make a great point also.

I am keeping an open mind willing to consider any other concepts.

RB

[ 12-08-2004, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Jack Heinlen]

The gods of woodworking have many mansions. I know a couple rooms.

What was agreed to be unsafe, and I've seen it done atimes(have done it a few times myself :eek: ), was snapping a chalk line and free handing over a table saw. Just one proviso, a small saw with an experienced person at the helm of light stock can rip this way. Just as a kick from a seven inch skill saw is overrated, someone who knows what they are doing will be able to control the stock before any harm is done. But...small saw... experience. Not a few amputations take place with kicking 7 1/4 skilsaws I wager.

Words are inadequate to describe the complex movements of body and stock. Pictures help, but you have to do it, hopefully with someone more expert to guide you when you're callow. There are three thousand amputations of fingers or hands from table saws every year in this country. Don't be one of them.

Anyway, a jointer is a wonderful tool. All its work can be done with hand tools, but it's a wonderful tool.

[ 12-08-2004, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[Jack Heinlen]

The gods of woodworking have many mansions. I know a couple rooms.

What was agreed to be unsafe, and I've seen it done atimes(have done it a few times myself :eek: ), was snapping a chalk line and free handing over a table saw. Just one proviso, a small saw with an experienced person at the helm of light stock can rip this way. Just as a kick from a seven inch skill saw is overrated, someone who knows what they are doing will be able to control the stock before any harm is done. But...small saw... experience. Not a few amputations take place with kicking 7 1/4 skilsaws I wager.

Words are inadequate to describe the complex movements of body and stock. Pictures help, but you have to do it, hopefully with someone more expert to guide you when you're callow. There are three thousand amputations of fingers or hands from table saws every year in this country. Don't be one of them.

Anyway, a jointer is a wonderful tool. All its work can be done with hand tools, but it's a wonderful tool.

[ 12-08-2004, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[Jack Heinlen]

The gods of woodworking have many mansions. I know a couple rooms.

What was agreed to be unsafe, and I've seen it done atimes(have done it a few times myself :eek: ), was snapping a chalk line and free handing over a table saw. Just one proviso, a small saw with an experienced person at the helm of light stock can rip this way. Just as a kick from a seven inch skill saw is overrated, someone who knows what they are doing will be able to control the stock before any harm is done. But...small saw... experience. Not a few amputations take place with kicking 7 1/4 skilsaws I wager.

Words are inadequate to describe the complex movements of body and stock. Pictures help, but you have to do it, hopefully with someone more expert to guide you when you're callow. There are three thousand amputations of fingers or hands from table saws every year in this country. Don't be one of them.

Anyway, a jointer is a wonderful tool. All its work can be done with hand tools, but it's a wonderful tool.

[ 12-08-2004, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Did anyone hear the piece on public radio today about the SawStop company?
They developed a system for tablesaws that instantly stops the blade as soon as flesh touches it. You literally can not cut your finger off! So they thought they had it made - sell or licence the technology to a major tablesaw manufacturer and make a bundle. But that's not how it worked out. They couldn't sell the technology, no manufacturer would buy it. They don't think their customers would pay extra for safety. As they said in the story - "safety doesn't sell" :(
Fortunately the good folks at SawStop aren't quitters and they decided to make their own tablesaws. I think the story said right in the U.S.A., but I could be wrong.
Contractor saw $799:
http://www.sawstop.com/images/contractor%20saw%20-%20small.jpg
Cabinet saw $2499:
http://www.sawstop.com/images/Cabinet%20Saw%20-%20small.jpg

There are some cool videos on their website. And a link to the recent Fine Woodworking review.

www.sawstop.com (http://www.sawstop.com)

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Did anyone hear the piece on public radio today about the SawStop company?
They developed a system for tablesaws that instantly stops the blade as soon as flesh touches it. You literally can not cut your finger off! So they thought they had it made - sell or licence the technology to a major tablesaw manufacturer and make a bundle. But that's not how it worked out. They couldn't sell the technology, no manufacturer would buy it. They don't think their customers would pay extra for safety. As they said in the story - "safety doesn't sell" :(
Fortunately the good folks at SawStop aren't quitters and they decided to make their own tablesaws. I think the story said right in the U.S.A., but I could be wrong.
Contractor saw $799:
http://www.sawstop.com/images/contractor%20saw%20-%20small.jpg
Cabinet saw $2499:
http://www.sawstop.com/images/Cabinet%20Saw%20-%20small.jpg

There are some cool videos on their website. And a link to the recent Fine Woodworking review.

www.sawstop.com (http://www.sawstop.com)

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Did anyone hear the piece on public radio today about the SawStop company?
They developed a system for tablesaws that instantly stops the blade as soon as flesh touches it. You literally can not cut your finger off! So they thought they had it made - sell or licence the technology to a major tablesaw manufacturer and make a bundle. But that's not how it worked out. They couldn't sell the technology, no manufacturer would buy it. They don't think their customers would pay extra for safety. As they said in the story - "safety doesn't sell" :(
Fortunately the good folks at SawStop aren't quitters and they decided to make their own tablesaws. I think the story said right in the U.S.A., but I could be wrong.
Contractor saw $799:
http://www.sawstop.com/images/contractor%20saw%20-%20small.jpg
Cabinet saw $2499:
http://www.sawstop.com/images/Cabinet%20Saw%20-%20small.jpg

There are some cool videos on their website. And a link to the recent Fine Woodworking review.

www.sawstop.com (http://www.sawstop.com)

Steven

[PeterSibley]

Jack,
Im going to agree with Dave on this one and here's the reason why (at the risk of making myself appear an idiot http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003796&p=

Regarding your methods, yes ,Ive done that and I'd prefer to do things differently.The method I used to joint wide stock is the kind of thing I'd do by myself and its the reason I would like a 12" jointer,single machine preferably but over and under as a consideration.

[PeterSibley]

Jack,
Im going to agree with Dave on this one and here's the reason why (at the risk of making myself appear an idiot http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003796&p=

Regarding your methods, yes ,Ive done that and I'd prefer to do things differently.The method I used to joint wide stock is the kind of thing I'd do by myself and its the reason I would like a 12" jointer,single machine preferably but over and under as a consideration.

[PeterSibley]

Jack,
Im going to agree with Dave on this one and here's the reason why (at the risk of making myself appear an idiot http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003796&p=

Regarding your methods, yes ,Ive done that and I'd prefer to do things differently.The method I used to joint wide stock is the kind of thing I'd do by myself and its the reason I would like a 12" jointer,single machine preferably but over and under as a consideration.

[Paul Pless]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for a most interesting and enlighting conversation.

Thanks again,

Paul

[ 12-08-2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[Paul Pless]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for a most interesting and enlighting conversation.

Thanks again,

Paul

[ 12-08-2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[Paul Pless]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for a most interesting and enlighting conversation.

Thanks again,

Paul

[ 12-08-2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[Gary Bergman]

Jeesh!..Man, does this thread run the gammut, or wot??...Actually, I'm extremely jealous of all of you who can put up the space for large power tools(specifically a stationary planer)and also be active sailors. I am partially in Allen H's corner, my hand planes have a lot of maintainance miles on them. As a fulltime liveaboard in a part of the country where land is the most expensive, the most construction space I'm allowed is however much deck space I can clear at any given time. So, large tools are pretty much out of the question. That said, I'm bettin' I do as much 'boat work' as the next guy, more or less. Most all of my planing jobs get done with either a hand power planer(mine's a DeWalt, but it matters little, as they all need resharpening), or my non-powered planers.Whatever your personal preferences, it is still a matter of whose hands the tools are in..DO enjoy all of your available space, mates, as it's a big key to some folks' success.

.......damnable typo's....where's the rum??

[ 12-08-2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Gary Bergman ]

[Gary Bergman]

Jeesh!..Man, does this thread run the gammut, or wot??...Actually, I'm extremely jealous of all of you who can put up the space for large power tools(specifically a stationary planer)and also be active sailors. I am partially in Allen H's corner, my hand planes have a lot of maintainance miles on them. As a fulltime liveaboard in a part of the country where land is the most expensive, the most construction space I'm allowed is however much deck space I can clear at any given time. So, large tools are pretty much out of the question. That said, I'm bettin' I do as much 'boat work' as the next guy, more or less. Most all of my planing jobs get done with either a hand power planer(mine's a DeWalt, but it matters little, as they all need resharpening), or my non-powered planers.Whatever your personal preferences, it is still a matter of whose hands the tools are in..DO enjoy all of your available space, mates, as it's a big key to some folks' success.

.......damnable typo's....where's the rum??

[ 12-08-2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Gary Bergman ]

[Gary Bergman]

Jeesh!..Man, does this thread run the gammut, or wot??...Actually, I'm extremely jealous of all of you who can put up the space for large power tools(specifically a stationary planer)and also be active sailors. I am partially in Allen H's corner, my hand planes have a lot of maintainance miles on them. As a fulltime liveaboard in a part of the country where land is the most expensive, the most construction space I'm allowed is however much deck space I can clear at any given time. So, large tools are pretty much out of the question. That said, I'm bettin' I do as much 'boat work' as the next guy, more or less. Most all of my planing jobs get done with either a hand power planer(mine's a DeWalt, but it matters little, as they all need resharpening), or my non-powered planers.Whatever your personal preferences, it is still a matter of whose hands the tools are in..DO enjoy all of your available space, mates, as it's a big key to some folks' success.

.......damnable typo's....where's the rum??

[ 12-08-2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Gary Bergman ]

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB, I see nothing fundumentally wrong with either of the methods for getting a straight edge (in your last post). The only objections I have to the sawhorse and batten method are:

1. If you need a glue joint quality edge you will still need to clean up the skilsawed edge with a "better" tool, which could be a tablesaw, a jointer or a hand plane. Even a tablesaw might not do it because you need one really straight edge to run against the fence, unless you are going to resort to a sled such as the one you described, in which case you might just as well start out there.

2. It takes a very good batten to get a really straight edge.

3. For boards less than 10-12' long I think I could do the job quicker with a jointer. Most people do not spend most of their time working with stock longer than 12'.

4. Stapling the batten down does leave holes in the board, which is not an issue in some cases but is in others.

So, what it again comes back to for me is if edge jointing was the major issue I would see a jointer as a fairly minor tool. Where a jointer really comes into its own, IMOOP, is for surfacing one face of a board. It does maybe take a modicum of skill to do it well, and it does produce a lot of shavings (so does a planer of course), but I never found it that hard to do, and a hand plane would produce about the same amount of shavings because either way you have to remove about the same amount of wood.

[ 12-08-2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB, I see nothing fundumentally wrong with either of the methods for getting a straight edge (in your last post). The only objections I have to the sawhorse and batten method are:

1. If you need a glue joint quality edge you will still need to clean up the skilsawed edge with a "better" tool, which could be a tablesaw, a jointer or a hand plane. Even a tablesaw might not do it because you need one really straight edge to run against the fence, unless you are going to resort to a sled such as the one you described, in which case you might just as well start out there.

2. It takes a very good batten to get a really straight edge.

3. For boards less than 10-12' long I think I could do the job quicker with a jointer. Most people do not spend most of their time working with stock longer than 12'.

4. Stapling the batten down does leave holes in the board, which is not an issue in some cases but is in others.

So, what it again comes back to for me is if edge jointing was the major issue I would see a jointer as a fairly minor tool. Where a jointer really comes into its own, IMOOP, is for surfacing one face of a board. It does maybe take a modicum of skill to do it well, and it does produce a lot of shavings (so does a planer of course), but I never found it that hard to do, and a hand plane would produce about the same amount of shavings because either way you have to remove about the same amount of wood.

[ 12-08-2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB, I see nothing fundumentally wrong with either of the methods for getting a straight edge (in your last post). The only objections I have to the sawhorse and batten method are:

1. If you need a glue joint quality edge you will still need to clean up the skilsawed edge with a "better" tool, which could be a tablesaw, a jointer or a hand plane. Even a tablesaw might not do it because you need one really straight edge to run against the fence, unless you are going to resort to a sled such as the one you described, in which case you might just as well start out there.

2. It takes a very good batten to get a really straight edge.

3. For boards less than 10-12' long I think I could do the job quicker with a jointer. Most people do not spend most of their time working with stock longer than 12'.

4. Stapling the batten down does leave holes in the board, which is not an issue in some cases but is in others.

So, what it again comes back to for me is if edge jointing was the major issue I would see a jointer as a fairly minor tool. Where a jointer really comes into its own, IMOOP, is for surfacing one face of a board. It does maybe take a modicum of skill to do it well, and it does produce a lot of shavings (so does a planer of course), but I never found it that hard to do, and a hand plane would produce about the same amount of shavings because either way you have to remove about the same amount of wood.

[ 12-08-2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Paulyboy]

Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:

Quite a few remarkable things have been built using this anachronistic deveice.

Some old cooper's jointer planes exceed six feet in length.

Alan[/QB]Hear, hear! How much in small to middle boat production uses straight grain wood to begin with! And how many planks in a boat really need to be razor straight? I've come to enjoy my jointer plane, although my furniture exploits rarely exceed the need to join 2 pieces of wood more than 8 feet in length.

[Paulyboy]

Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:

Quite a few remarkable things have been built using this anachronistic deveice.

Some old cooper's jointer planes exceed six feet in length.

Alan[/QB]Hear, hear! How much in small to middle boat production uses straight grain wood to begin with! And how many planks in a boat really need to be razor straight? I've come to enjoy my jointer plane, although my furniture exploits rarely exceed the need to join 2 pieces of wood more than 8 feet in length.

[Paulyboy]

Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:

Quite a few remarkable things have been built using this anachronistic deveice.

Some old cooper's jointer planes exceed six feet in length.

Alan[/QB]Hear, hear! How much in small to middle boat production uses straight grain wood to begin with! And how many planks in a boat really need to be razor straight? I've come to enjoy my jointer plane, although my furniture exploits rarely exceed the need to join 2 pieces of wood more than 8 feet in length.

[Garrett Lowell]

Actually, Steven, the reason Saw Stop wasn't picked up is that the new technology wasn't compatible with the existing saw platforms, which would have necessitated new tooling.

[Garrett Lowell]

Actually, Steven, the reason Saw Stop wasn't picked up is that the new technology wasn't compatible with the existing saw platforms, which would have necessitated new tooling.

[Garrett Lowell]

Actually, Steven, the reason Saw Stop wasn't picked up is that the new technology wasn't compatible with the existing saw platforms, which would have necessitated new tooling.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Aw, who needs all those fingers anyhow? Ya cut one off ya still got nine more! :eek: If I was looking at a new saw I'd give these a hard look. They have 'em on miter saws and bandsaws, too.

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Aw, who needs all those fingers anyhow? Ya cut one off ya still got nine more! :eek: If I was looking at a new saw I'd give these a hard look. They have 'em on miter saws and bandsaws, too.

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Aw, who needs all those fingers anyhow? Ya cut one off ya still got nine more! :eek: If I was looking at a new saw I'd give these a hard look. They have 'em on miter saws and bandsaws, too.

Steven

[Garrett Lowell]

I will be giving them a hard look, as well, sometime in the next year. I still lust after a General of Canada, though.

[Garrett Lowell]

I will be giving them a hard look, as well, sometime in the next year. I still lust after a General of Canada, though.

[Garrett Lowell]

I will be giving them a hard look, as well, sometime in the next year. I still lust after a General of Canada, though.

[Jack Heinlen]

With all respect to your experience Peter, you knew you should have either clamped that piece or had your holding hand farther away. Add in the distractions and you were asking for an accident. It's often not a lack of experience, but rather a devil-may-care attitude that gets us in trouble. I'm sorry about your thumb.

House framing with guys who were really good at it, had done it for decades, I've see things that gave me shivers, like cutting compound miters with a knee as a horse. :eek: A small skill saw, like a light table saw, however, can be stopped before it kicks more than an an inch or three, if you have it and the stock under control. Keeping your holding hand(not to mention your knee :D ) out of the 'zone' is something that comes second nature to guys who are doing it day in and day out. They, also, often, are in a hurry, and sometimes screw up, with bad results. And we all hurry, or are distracted atimes, it's part of life.

Anyway, I hope your thumb has healed well.

[Jack Heinlen]

With all respect to your experience Peter, you knew you should have either clamped that piece or had your holding hand farther away. Add in the distractions and you were asking for an accident. It's often not a lack of experience, but rather a devil-may-care attitude that gets us in trouble. I'm sorry about your thumb.

House framing with guys who were really good at it, had done it for decades, I've see things that gave me shivers, like cutting compound miters with a knee as a horse. :eek: A small skill saw, like a light table saw, however, can be stopped before it kicks more than an an inch or three, if you have it and the stock under control. Keeping your holding hand(not to mention your knee :D ) out of the 'zone' is something that comes second nature to guys who are doing it day in and day out. They, also, often, are in a hurry, and sometimes screw up, with bad results. And we all hurry, or are distracted atimes, it's part of life.

Anyway, I hope your thumb has healed well.

[Jack Heinlen]

With all respect to your experience Peter, you knew you should have either clamped that piece or had your holding hand farther away. Add in the distractions and you were asking for an accident. It's often not a lack of experience, but rather a devil-may-care attitude that gets us in trouble. I'm sorry about your thumb.

House framing with guys who were really good at it, had done it for decades, I've see things that gave me shivers, like cutting compound miters with a knee as a horse. :eek: A small skill saw, like a light table saw, however, can be stopped before it kicks more than an an inch or three, if you have it and the stock under control. Keeping your holding hand(not to mention your knee :D ) out of the 'zone' is something that comes second nature to guys who are doing it day in and day out. They, also, often, are in a hurry, and sometimes screw up, with bad results. And we all hurry, or are distracted atimes, it's part of life.

Anyway, I hope your thumb has healed well.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Jack smile.gif smile.gif the thumb is fine ! You can see why I'm kind of edgy about doing things the easy and quick way.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Jack smile.gif smile.gif the thumb is fine ! You can see why I'm kind of edgy about doing things the easy and quick way.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Jack smile.gif smile.gif the thumb is fine ! You can see why I'm kind of edgy about doing things the easy and quick way.

[RodB]

I 'm continuing study on this subject...
I think if you take the time to set up the appropriate jigs and sled devices, most all of this would be quite matter of fact. Once you have created the initial straight edge,naturally the table saw with fence... would take over from there.

Its probably right that squaring an edge for smaller stock would be very simple on a jointer. One person can control things well and after all that would be the jointers premier
job... producing a square cut edge on a board with the flat of the board against the fence.

When you come to working the flat of the board on the jointer, now thats another case and thats where I like another approach. Each board must be evaluated and its takes skill to use the jointer for such work. The blade guide must be removed and you still must be able to cut differentially with it to get the desired results. Its definitely not a no-brainer.

The Planer is much better for this type of work and the planer will not flatten a cupped board unless the board is very thin and wide..... I think proper use of the planer will in most cases achieve parallel flats with not too much trouble. You can work boards in this process and get them within a few thousandths their entire length.

Geneal Approach: take starting stock and run through planer untill you have taken off high points and have achieved two paralled flat surfaces. For example you just feed the thicker end of the board into the planer to get her even and flat throughout the length of the board. Complete this process on all of your material. Next, use the table saw with a sled or jig to achieve your intiial straight edge. On stock that is a bit bigger, just use the methods described above to get your straight edge.

Now you are ready to rip the required material for your project.

Note: there is a device that is a quasi-sanding wheel (perhaps available from Sears) that is adjustable and allows dressing an edge on a tablesaw... You can adjust the angle and use your table saw fence to dress the edges of boards. Its not real fast but does a great job and offers consistency from board to board.

BTW I have been reviewing the "literature" on jointers, (I have three comprehensive "tool" books such as "Popular Mechanics, Tools and Their Use") ... they suggest several uses not mentioned here.

Also, I came across another Makita hand planer the other day that is an older model with a very rigid fence, or edge guide... (that is removable) that would allow edge dressing quite easily...I am picking it up for $50.... With this edge guide it will be a snap to dress the edge of a board that is 15 feet long once it has a straight edge.

I use one of these Makita planers (a newer model) with the John Henry scarfing jig and I use my larger model 1911B for general planing operations around my shop.

I hope I have made this approach a bit clearer.

Heres a rough diagram of a masonite jig.... this jig could be 4', 8', or 12' made to fit a specific circular saw base plate.
A jig like this would be much better than the clamping straight edges they sell for cross-cutting plywood. Just clamp her on the stock cut away....
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid149/pe5e5fdeaea400115178eb87aaca80657/f5f6dcf0.jpg

RB

[ 12-10-2004, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

I 'm continuing study on this subject...
I think if you take the time to set up the appropriate jigs and sled devices, most all of this would be quite matter of fact. Once you have created the initial straight edge,naturally the table saw with fence... would take over from there.

Its probably right that squaring an edge for smaller stock would be very simple on a jointer. One person can control things well and after all that would be the jointers premier
job... producing a square cut edge on a board with the flat of the board against the fence.

When you come to working the flat of the board on the jointer, now thats another case and thats where I like another approach. Each board must be evaluated and its takes skill to use the jointer for such work. The blade guide must be removed and you still must be able to cut differentially with it to get the desired results. Its definitely not a no-brainer.

The Planer is much better for this type of work and the planer will not flatten a cupped board unless the board is very thin and wide..... I think proper use of the planer will in most cases achieve parallel flats with not too much trouble. You can work boards in this process and get them within a few thousandths their entire length.

Geneal Approach: take starting stock and run through planer untill you have taken off high points and have achieved two paralled flat surfaces. For example you just feed the thicker end of the board into the planer to get her even and flat throughout the length of the board. Complete this process on all of your material. Next, use the table saw with a sled or jig to achieve your intiial straight edge. On stock that is a bit bigger, just use the methods described above to get your straight edge.

Now you are ready to rip the required material for your project.

Note: there is a device that is a quasi-sanding wheel (perhaps available from Sears) that is adjustable and allows dressing an edge on a tablesaw... You can adjust the angle and use your table saw fence to dress the edges of boards. Its not real fast but does a great job and offers consistency from board to board.

BTW I have been reviewing the "literature" on jointers, (I have three comprehensive "tool" books such as "Popular Mechanics, Tools and Their Use") ... they suggest several uses not mentioned here.

Also, I came across another Makita hand planer the other day that is an older model with a very rigid fence, or edge guide... (that is removable) that would allow edge dressing quite easily...I am picking it up for $50.... With this edge guide it will be a snap to dress the edge of a board that is 15 feet long once it has a straight edge.

I use one of these Makita planers (a newer model) with the John Henry scarfing jig and I use my larger model 1911B for general planing operations around my shop.

I hope I have made this approach a bit clearer.

Heres a rough diagram of a masonite jig.... this jig could be 4', 8', or 12' made to fit a specific circular saw base plate.
A jig like this would be much better than the clamping straight edges they sell for cross-cutting plywood. Just clamp her on the stock cut away....
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid149/pe5e5fdeaea400115178eb87aaca80657/f5f6dcf0.jpg

RB

[ 12-10-2004, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

I 'm continuing study on this subject...
I think if you take the time to set up the appropriate jigs and sled devices, most all of this would be quite matter of fact. Once you have created the initial straight edge,naturally the table saw with fence... would take over from there.

Its probably right that squaring an edge for smaller stock would be very simple on a jointer. One person can control things well and after all that would be the jointers premier
job... producing a square cut edge on a board with the flat of the board against the fence.

When you come to working the flat of the board on the jointer, now thats another case and thats where I like another approach. Each board must be evaluated and its takes skill to use the jointer for such work. The blade guide must be removed and you still must be able to cut differentially with it to get the desired results. Its definitely not a no-brainer.

The Planer is much better for this type of work and the planer will not flatten a cupped board unless the board is very thin and wide..... I think proper use of the planer will in most cases achieve parallel flats with not too much trouble. You can work boards in this process and get them within a few thousandths their entire length.

Geneal Approach: take starting stock and run through planer untill you have taken off high points and have achieved two paralled flat surfaces. For example you just feed the thicker end of the board into the planer to get her even and flat throughout the length of the board. Complete this process on all of your material. Next, use the table saw with a sled or jig to achieve your intiial straight edge. On stock that is a bit bigger, just use the methods described above to get your straight edge.

Now you are ready to rip the required material for your project.

Note: there is a device that is a quasi-sanding wheel (perhaps available from Sears) that is adjustable and allows dressing an edge on a tablesaw... You can adjust the angle and use your table saw fence to dress the edges of boards. Its not real fast but does a great job and offers consistency from board to board.

BTW I have been reviewing the "literature" on jointers, (I have three comprehensive "tool" books such as "Popular Mechanics, Tools and Their Use") ... they suggest several uses not mentioned here.

Also, I came across another Makita hand planer the other day that is an older model with a very rigid fence, or edge guide... (that is removable) that would allow edge dressing quite easily...I am picking it up for $50.... With this edge guide it will be a snap to dress the edge of a board that is 15 feet long once it has a straight edge.

I use one of these Makita planers (a newer model) with the John Henry scarfing jig and I use my larger model 1911B for general planing operations around my shop.

I hope I have made this approach a bit clearer.

Heres a rough diagram of a masonite jig.... this jig could be 4', 8', or 12' made to fit a specific circular saw base plate.
A jig like this would be much better than the clamping straight edges they sell for cross-cutting plywood. Just clamp her on the stock cut away....
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid149/pe5e5fdeaea400115178eb87aaca80657/f5f6dcf0.jpg

RB

[ 12-10-2004, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

Heres a rough idea of a sled for achieveing
a straight edge on rough stock. The clamping system could be simpler or more complex, but you get the idea.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid149/p9e1eefae3f226f4c76a994dc30c37681/f5f65681.jpg

RB

[RodB]

Heres a rough idea of a sled for achieveing
a straight edge on rough stock. The clamping system could be simpler or more complex, but you get the idea.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid149/p9e1eefae3f226f4c76a994dc30c37681/f5f65681.jpg

RB

[RodB]

Heres a rough idea of a sled for achieveing
a straight edge on rough stock. The clamping system could be simpler or more complex, but you get the idea.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid149/p9e1eefae3f226f4c76a994dc30c37681/f5f65681.jpg

RB

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB,

In my experience even moderately thick and narrow boards will get flattened somewhat by a planer. Sure, a 2" thick 6" wide board won't bend, but a 3/4" thick 8" wide board will. More importantly, most rough boards have at least a small amount of twist (wind) and bow (curvature in the lengthwise dimension). Without a lot of fancy shimming the planer will simply reproduce this bow and twist, whereas a jointer will remove both if it is used properly.

Also, the technique of removing the jointer blade guard and so on only applies if the board is wider than the jointer. This is a special "trick" and is certainly not recommended in the manuals! In my experience getting good results from a jointer used in the regular way does not require any more experience than getting good results out of a tablesaw, bandsaw, or other stationary power tool.

Without a doubt, wide boards are a problem with jointers in a home shop -- few home shops can justify having a 12" or wider jointer, so short of resorting to tricky and potentially dangerous methods or simply cutting the board in half, the jointer can be less than useful when dealing with the face of a board that is wider than the jointer. But that simply takes us back to the cost - benefit analysis that anyone should do before buying a jointer.

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB,

In my experience even moderately thick and narrow boards will get flattened somewhat by a planer. Sure, a 2" thick 6" wide board won't bend, but a 3/4" thick 8" wide board will. More importantly, most rough boards have at least a small amount of twist (wind) and bow (curvature in the lengthwise dimension). Without a lot of fancy shimming the planer will simply reproduce this bow and twist, whereas a jointer will remove both if it is used properly.

Also, the technique of removing the jointer blade guard and so on only applies if the board is wider than the jointer. This is a special "trick" and is certainly not recommended in the manuals! In my experience getting good results from a jointer used in the regular way does not require any more experience than getting good results out of a tablesaw, bandsaw, or other stationary power tool.

Without a doubt, wide boards are a problem with jointers in a home shop -- few home shops can justify having a 12" or wider jointer, so short of resorting to tricky and potentially dangerous methods or simply cutting the board in half, the jointer can be less than useful when dealing with the face of a board that is wider than the jointer. But that simply takes us back to the cost - benefit analysis that anyone should do before buying a jointer.

[Bruce Hooke]

RodB,

In my experience even moderately thick and narrow boards will get flattened somewhat by a planer. Sure, a 2" thick 6" wide board won't bend, but a 3/4" thick 8" wide board will. More importantly, most rough boards have at least a small amount of twist (wind) and bow (curvature in the lengthwise dimension). Without a lot of fancy shimming the planer will simply reproduce this bow and twist, whereas a jointer will remove both if it is used properly.

Also, the technique of removing the jointer blade guard and so on only applies if the board is wider than the jointer. This is a special "trick" and is certainly not recommended in the manuals! In my experience getting good results from a jointer used in the regular way does not require any more experience than getting good results out of a tablesaw, bandsaw, or other stationary power tool.

Without a doubt, wide boards are a problem with jointers in a home shop -- few home shops can justify having a 12" or wider jointer, so short of resorting to tricky and potentially dangerous methods or simply cutting the board in half, the jointer can be less than useful when dealing with the face of a board that is wider than the jointer. But that simply takes us back to the cost - benefit analysis that anyone should do before buying a jointer.

[Jack Heinlen]

Just a note. A 'naked' jointer is no more dangerous than a shaper, or a router, or a tablesaw, or any other spinning cutter. Less so, in some ways, because the majority of the cutter's diameter is always buried in the machine. Getting your mind around it, keeping your digits out of it, are key, as with all of the above.

Don't try it unless you know where you are going, but it isn't, really, that big a deal.

[Jack Heinlen]

Just a note. A 'naked' jointer is no more dangerous than a shaper, or a router, or a tablesaw, or any other spinning cutter. Less so, in some ways, because the majority of the cutter's diameter is always buried in the machine. Getting your mind around it, keeping your digits out of it, are key, as with all of the above.

Don't try it unless you know where you are going, but it isn't, really, that big a deal.

[Jack Heinlen]

Just a note. A 'naked' jointer is no more dangerous than a shaper, or a router, or a tablesaw, or any other spinning cutter. Less so, in some ways, because the majority of the cutter's diameter is always buried in the machine. Getting your mind around it, keeping your digits out of it, are key, as with all of the above.

Don't try it unless you know where you are going, but it isn't, really, that big a deal.

[RodB]

Hey Bruce,

Its funny, I just had a conversation with Tracy Obrien, my designer (tracyobrien.com), on exactly what you described on the planer and cupped boards. I think some planers have greater pressures than others (their rollers that is) and will flatten out some boards. I think it is possible to tweak your planer and take off smaller amounts of material thus dealing with most boards. The planer most likely has more capabilities than many folks think if used wisely.

Tracy allows that the shorter length boards having their edges squared and surfaced on the jointer are the one task where the jointer shines...but I don't think would merit him owning one ever again.

I also think your description of how easy it is to deal with the cupped boad on the jointer is an oversimplification. Sure just running board's edges through the jointer is not difficult but working the flats of cupped or rough boards with any width is another story. You have to keep even pressure on top of the board but only when needed to take off material exactly where you need to take it off. You have to correctly access each board and then correctly utilize the jointer to remove the material exactly where you want. The planer is much easier to use... and can accomplish such tasks.

If you could use the planer and get there easier and safer, wouldn't you? The planer can allow you to get two parallel flat surfaces as step one, then cut your initial straight edge.
The degree of accuracy you can achieve on the consistant thickness of a board is amazing.

I realize that this discussion is like attacking the sacred cow, but I have come to the realization I most likely will be able to live without a jointer...and I didn't think this way in the past. I thought it would be interesting to throw this perspective out for discussion, and it has been.

RB

[ 12-10-2004, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

Hey Bruce,

Its funny, I just had a conversation with Tracy Obrien, my designer (tracyobrien.com), on exactly what you described on the planer and cupped boards. I think some planers have greater pressures than others (their rollers that is) and will flatten out some boards. I think it is possible to tweak your planer and take off smaller amounts of material thus dealing with most boards. The planer most likely has more capabilities than many folks think if used wisely.

Tracy allows that the shorter length boards having their edges squared and surfaced on the jointer are the one task where the jointer shines...but I don't think would merit him owning one ever again.

I also think your description of how easy it is to deal with the cupped boad on the jointer is an oversimplification. Sure just running board's edges through the jointer is not difficult but working the flats of cupped or rough boards with any width is another story. You have to keep even pressure on top of the board but only when needed to take off material exactly where you need to take it off. You have to correctly access each board and then correctly utilize the jointer to remove the material exactly where you want. The planer is much easier to use... and can accomplish such tasks.

If you could use the planer and get there easier and safer, wouldn't you? The planer can allow you to get two parallel flat surfaces as step one, then cut your initial straight edge.
The degree of accuracy you can achieve on the consistant thickness of a board is amazing.

I realize that this discussion is like attacking the sacred cow, but I have come to the realization I most likely will be able to live without a jointer...and I didn't think this way in the past. I thought it would be interesting to throw this perspective out for discussion, and it has been.

RB

[ 12-10-2004, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

Hey Bruce,

Its funny, I just had a conversation with Tracy Obrien, my designer (tracyobrien.com), on exactly what you described on the planer and cupped boards. I think some planers have greater pressures than others (their rollers that is) and will flatten out some boards. I think it is possible to tweak your planer and take off smaller amounts of material thus dealing with most boards. The planer most likely has more capabilities than many folks think if used wisely.

Tracy allows that the shorter length boards having their edges squared and surfaced on the jointer are the one task where the jointer shines...but I don't think would merit him owning one ever again.

I also think your description of how easy it is to deal with the cupped boad on the jointer is an oversimplification. Sure just running board's edges through the jointer is not difficult but working the flats of cupped or rough boards with any width is another story. You have to keep even pressure on top of the board but only when needed to take off material exactly where you need to take it off. You have to correctly access each board and then correctly utilize the jointer to remove the material exactly where you want. The planer is much easier to use... and can accomplish such tasks.

If you could use the planer and get there easier and safer, wouldn't you? The planer can allow you to get two parallel flat surfaces as step one, then cut your initial straight edge.
The degree of accuracy you can achieve on the consistant thickness of a board is amazing.

I realize that this discussion is like attacking the sacred cow, but I have come to the realization I most likely will be able to live without a jointer...and I didn't think this way in the past. I thought it would be interesting to throw this perspective out for discussion, and it has been.

RB

[ 12-10-2004, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Bruce Taylor]

Sure, a planer can relieve cup, especially on thick stock.

It won't do much about warp or twist, though. Run a warped & twisted board through a planer, and you'll have a thinner warped & twisted board.

If you're getting out planking stock or rubrails, that might not matter much (it might even save you some steam!). But if you're assembling a transom or a table top it won't do.

So, you get out the handplane and knock the high points off one face of the board and then put it through the planer (flattened side down, naturally). After one pass, you get out your winding sticks, and check the surface side. If it needs work, bring out the handplane again and repeat until your board is dead flat. It doesn't take long, since you're only removing enough stock to get the board to sit flat on the on the planer's bed. (Adding a flat bed extender to the planer helps, as well).

There's another trick you might be able to do with your planer. I sometimes adjust the depth of cut as the stock is going through. I put the warped board in with the humped side up, and the blade approaches the middle of the board I slowly crank down the cutter head. As it approaches the ends, I crank it back up again. When one surface is reasonably flat, I flip the board, run it through the plane, check the surfaced side, and adjust as necessary.

The method is useful for warped boards (but not much help with twist, obviously).

I joint edges with a Stanley #7. I'm pretty good at it, and have put a lot of miles on my handplanes over the years, and....and I really want a power jointer!!. If I were trying to make a living at this, it'd be the first thing I'd buy.

[Bruce Taylor]

Sure, a planer can relieve cup, especially on thick stock.

It won't do much about warp or twist, though. Run a warped & twisted board through a planer, and you'll have a thinner warped & twisted board.

If you're getting out planking stock or rubrails, that might not matter much (it might even save you some steam!). But if you're assembling a transom or a table top it won't do.

So, you get out the handplane and knock the high points off one face of the board and then put it through the planer (flattened side down, naturally). After one pass, you get out your winding sticks, and check the surface side. If it needs work, bring out the handplane again and repeat until your board is dead flat. It doesn't take long, since you're only removing enough stock to get the board to sit flat on the on the planer's bed. (Adding a flat bed extender to the planer helps, as well).

There's another trick you might be able to do with your planer. I sometimes adjust the depth of cut as the stock is going through. I put the warped board in with the humped side up, and the blade approaches the middle of the board I slowly crank down the cutter head. As it approaches the ends, I crank it back up again. When one surface is reasonably flat, I flip the board, run it through the plane, check the surfaced side, and adjust as necessary.

The method is useful for warped boards (but not much help with twist, obviously).

I joint edges with a Stanley #7. I'm pretty good at it, and have put a lot of miles on my handplanes over the years, and....and I really want a power jointer!!. If I were trying to make a living at this, it'd be the first thing I'd buy.

[Bruce Taylor]

Sure, a planer can relieve cup, especially on thick stock.

It won't do much about warp or twist, though. Run a warped & twisted board through a planer, and you'll have a thinner warped & twisted board.

If you're getting out planking stock or rubrails, that might not matter much (it might even save you some steam!). But if you're assembling a transom or a table top it won't do.

So, you get out the handplane and knock the high points off one face of the board and then put it through the planer (flattened side down, naturally). After one pass, you get out your winding sticks, and check the surface side. If it needs work, bring out the handplane again and repeat until your board is dead flat. It doesn't take long, since you're only removing enough stock to get the board to sit flat on the on the planer's bed. (Adding a flat bed extender to the planer helps, as well).

There's another trick you might be able to do with your planer. I sometimes adjust the depth of cut as the stock is going through. I put the warped board in with the humped side up, and the blade approaches the middle of the board I slowly crank down the cutter head. As it approaches the ends, I crank it back up again. When one surface is reasonably flat, I flip the board, run it through the plane, check the surfaced side, and adjust as necessary.

The method is useful for warped boards (but not much help with twist, obviously).

I joint edges with a Stanley #7. I'm pretty good at it, and have put a lot of miles on my handplanes over the years, and....and I really want a power jointer!!. If I were trying to make a living at this, it'd be the first thing I'd buy.