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George Jung
04-02-2015, 01:26 PM
I'd be interested the takes on how the Iraqi mindset is changing (if it ever was different).

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/03/world/middleeast/isis-forces-pushed-out-of-tikrit.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Norman Bernstein
04-02-2015, 01:34 PM
I heard a discusssion about this on NPR this morning.... in which, it was pointed out that we (meaning, America) is forced to effectively support a hostile Shiite insurgency in order to battle an even MORE hostile Sunni insurgency.... presumably, based on the cliche that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.... but for how long?

Isn't that what prevented Iraq from emerging from the war without any hope of a stable government... because it's less a nation, and far more, a region with intensely warring religious factions that can NEVER align with each other in a common purpose?

It's the question I always ask, when the topic comes up: just WHO are the noble forces that America can be unreservedly behind, if (as the right wingers suggest), we get 'serious' and march in with a few hundred thousand boots on the ground.... and when, if ever, would it be possible to extricate ourselves from a non-resolvable conflict?

My conclusion is a sad one, but, in my mind, inevitable: the US should provide copious humanitarian aid to the unaligned and non-belligerent victims of the perpetual war going on, we should offer sanctuary (enforced, ONLY if necessary, by air power), and offer lenient and generous opportunities for refugees to relocate.

Aside from that: let Sunnis and Shia kill each other. It's not our war, and we have no meaningful stake in it.

George Jung
04-02-2015, 02:09 PM
Your position seems intuitive; how would you extrapolate that to the permanent impasse that is the R vs the L in the USA?

Norman Bernstein
04-02-2015, 02:22 PM
Your position seems intuitive; how would you extrapolate that to the permanent impasse that is the R vs the L in the USA?

Boy, you REALLY want to ruin my day, don't ya? :)

I manage to avoid slashing my wrists by believing (against the odds), that the extraordinary political polarization we are living with these days is a temporary phenomenon which will fade in the long run.

Maybe this is the best example of 'faith', outside the context of religion :)

LeeG
04-02-2015, 03:52 PM
I heard a discusssion about this on NPR this morning.... in which, it was pointed out that we (meaning, America) is forced to effectively support a hostile Shiite insurgency in order to battle an even MORE hostile Sunni insurgency.... presumably, based on the cliche that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.... but for how long?

Isn't that what prevented Iraq from emerging from the war without any hope of a stable government... because it's less a nation, and far more, a region with intensely warring religious factions that can NEVER align with each other in a common purpose?

It's the question I always ask, when the topic comes up: just WHO are the noble forces that America can be unreservedly behind, if (as the right wingers suggest), we get 'serious' and march in with a few hundred thousand boots on the ground.... and when, if ever, would it be possible to extricate ourselves from a non-resolvable conflict?

My conclusion is a sad one, but, in my mind, inevitable: the US should provide copious humanitarian aid to the unaligned and non-belligerent victims of the perpetual war going on, we should offer sanctuary (enforced, ONLY if necessary, by air power), and offer lenient and generous opportunities for refugees to relocate.

Aside from that: let Sunnis and Shia kill each other. It's not our war, and we have no meaningful stake in it.

The description "hostile" or "insurgency" isn't really useful since the Iraqi gov't is hostile to former Baathists and Sunni. The Iraqi Shia militias who are a separate force than the gov't isn't hostile they're effective as are the Sunni. Our mindset that there are good guys and bad guys is a cartoon narrative along with WMD and Saddam giving WMD to Terrists.

The idea we should be aligning with a "noble force" presumes we are one. The invasion blew that idea out of the water.
We will provide copious aid to Halliburton and Lockheed before we will through the UN or Red Crescent.

skuthorp
04-02-2015, 04:06 PM
"The idea we should be aligning with a "noble force" presumes we are one. The invasion blew that idea out of the water.
We will provide copious aid to Halliburton and Lockheed before we will through the UN or Red Crescent."
Yes, and we will follow blindly as usual, or at least as long as our dodgy PM sees a personal electoral advantage in it. China, and the Chinese bank loom.