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View Full Version : Indiana! It's a GREAT place to be...



David G
03-30-2015, 10:55 AM
http://www.occupydemocrats.com/watch-indiana-is-a-great-place-to-be-a-bigot/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LH2FVxrj4k

John of Phoenix
03-30-2015, 11:07 AM
SNL had a news bit about that law.

"Businesses that support the new law will be easily identified by a large sign -

http://www.recentlyentrepreneurial.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Closing-Business-672x340.jpg"

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 11:09 AM
I like the sponsor!

Paid for by Terrible People!:)

David G
03-30-2015, 12:04 PM
Apple's CEO comments --

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/apple-ceo-tim-cook-compares-indiana-law-to-jim-115027950959.html


Apple chief Tim Cook slammed what he called a wave of “dangerous” laws in several US states that he said promote discrimination and erode equality, in an editorial published Sunday.

Cook — one of the most prominent chief executives to publicly acknowledge his homosexuality — wrote in the Washington Post that so-called “religious freedom” laws passed in several states threaten to undo progress toward greater equality.

"There’s something very dangerous happening in states across the country," Cook wrote in the editorial.

"These bills rationalize injustice by pretending to defend something many of us hold dear. They go against the very principles our nation was founded on."

Cook’s comments follow the adoption of a controversial law in the state of Indiana last week that critics say would allow businesses to deny service to homosexuals on religious grounds.

The law, which takes effect July 1, makes no mention of gays or lesbians. But activists say it makes it legal for businesses whose owners reject homosexuality on religious grounds to turn away LGBT customers.

Eighteen other states have adopted similar laws, including Kentucky, Tennessee and Texas, all of which ban same-sex marriage.
Cook said such laws erode fundamental rights and make no sense for business owners.

"America’s business community recognized a long time ago that discrimination, in all its forms, is bad for business," he wrote.
"On behalf of Apple, I’m standing up to oppose this new wave of legislation — wherever it emerges."

David G
03-30-2015, 01:25 PM
https://scontent-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11082646_10153964673853840_7647854205244940729_n.p ng?oh=2306a05749fc1759d7eb392c073e53df&oe=55A18D5E



So... if you are a thinking Republican...

Aren't you tired of this sorta chit YET???

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 01:27 PM
The one on the right looks like a dork!

ron ll
03-30-2015, 01:31 PM
The one on the right looks like a dork!

They're all dorks.

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 01:32 PM
They're all dorks.That's true! And Pence won't put their names in the news! What a putz! Afraid of them perhaps.

David G
03-30-2015, 03:40 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11071047_10153236686934255_1657754978575333651_n.j pg?oh=a9011756ad6e86aa2d351647658c9b14&oe=55B38FBC&__gda__=1438139075_526fb7eab5a2f92b08e4ac253067cb9 d

Norman Bernstein
03-30-2015, 03:44 PM
The State of Connecticut isn't going to tolerate it, either:


WASHINGTON -- Connecticut Gov. Dan Malloy (D) will sign an executive order on Monday barring state-funded travel to Indiana because of the state's new law that could allow businesses to turn away gay and lesbian customers for religious reasons.Malloy announced his plans on Twitter.

Malloy's move would make Connecticut the first state to boycott Indiana over its Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which Gov. Mike Pence (R) quietly signed (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/26/indiana-governor-mike-pence-anti-gay-bill_n_6947472.html) into law last week. The law allows businesses in the state to cite religious beliefs as a legal defense. Opponents fear it offers legal protection for businesses to refuse service to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.

A Pence spokeswoman did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Two cities, San Francisco (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/27/san-francisco-indiana-boycott_n_6957136.html) and Seattle (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/seattle-mayor-prohibits-city-employees-traveling-indiana/story?id=29979438), have imposed similar bans in response to the law. Businesses have also retaliated. Angie's List is pulling a campus expansion project (http://globenewswire.com/news-release/2015/03/28/719862/10126773/en/Angie-s-List-Withdraws-Campus-Expansion-Proposal-Due-to-Passage-of-Religious-Freedom-Bill.html) in Indianapolis, and the CEO of Salesforce, a $4 billion software corporation, announced plans to "dramatically reduce our investment" (http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/_4_billion_s_p_500_corporation_to_indiana_we_re_ou t_of_here) in the state because of the law.

Twenty states have RFRA laws, but Indiana's law is substantially different (http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/30/3640374/big-lie-media-tells-indianas-new-religious-freedom-law/). While other state RFRAs apply to disputes between a person and a government, Indiana's law goes further and applies to disputes between private citizens. That means, for example, a business owner could use the law to justify discrimination against customers who might otherwise be protected under law.

Indiana's law also differs from the federal RFRA, which President Bill Clinton signed into law in 1993, for the same reason.

Last month, 30 law professors with expertise in religious freedom (http://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/microsites/gender-sexuality/law_professors_letter_on_indiana_rfra.pdf) explained why the Indiana law could lead to "confusion and conflict."

The Indiana law could result in "employers, landlords, small business owners, or corporations, taking the law into their own hands and acting in ways that violate generally applicable laws on the grounds that they have a religious justification for doing so," reads their letter. "Members of the public will then be asked to bear the cost of their employer's, their landlord's, their local shopkeeper's, or a police officer's private religious beliefs."

That's in sharp contrast to states like Connecticut, which has an RFRA but one that pertains only to religious institutions, not private establishments. And unlike some other states, Connecticut also doesn't permit discrimination based on sexual orientation in any private establishment or institution.

UPDATE: Malloy signed the executive order Monday afternoon.

Before signing the order, he called the Indiana law "disturbing and outright discriminatory," and said the National Collegiate Athletic Association should relocate its Final Four tournament from Indiana to another state. Those games are set to begin later this week.

"I think that would be a wise choice for them to do if that's possible," said Malloy. "I'll leave it up to them to make those decisions."

The NCAA president Mark Emmert has said he is "surprised and disappointed" (http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/12587768/ncaa-president-mark-emmert-keeping-close-eye-indiana-legislators-new-law-allow-businesses-discriminate-gays-lesbians)by Indiana's law, and that he is waiting for some kind of clarification to the law, or an outright repeal, before deciding whether to keep holding sporting events in the state.

Malloy said his executive order allows for any of the state's current contractual obligations with Indiana to play out, but said he doesn't plan to enter into any new ones.

"Somebody's got to stand up to this kind of bigotry and I'm prepared to do it," he said.

David G
03-30-2015, 03:50 PM
There'll be no city-funded travel to Indiana from The People's Republic of Portland, either --

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2015/03/portland_latest_to_join_boycot.html


Portland Mayor Charlie Hales said Monday that he would ban city-funded travel to Indiana after Gov. Mike Pence signed a controversial "religious freedom" bill into law last week.


Hales' statement follows similar declarations from the mayors of San Francisco and Seattle. Connecticut Gov. Dan Malloy said he would also outlaw publicly funded travel to Indiana.


Pence signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act into law in Indiana, sparking criticism from the LGBT community and allies around the country.


The law, Pence said, is intended to protect religious Indianans from government intrusion. Opponents argue that the law opens the door for businesses in Indiana to discriminate against gays and lesbians on religious grounds.
In a statement Monday, Hales called Pence and the Indiana Legislature's actions "blatant discrimination."


"Gov. Mike Pence and the Indiana Legislature have to understand that such blatant discrimination against their own citizens cannot stand," Hales said, adding that the U.S. has moved beyond "those shameful practices of the past."

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 03:53 PM
Fantastic news! Tough luck Pence!

John of Phoenix
03-30-2015, 04:02 PM
On behalf of many moderate Arizonans I'd like to say, "THANK YOU Indiana republicans. You've out-stupided our own moronic legislators and stolen the Dumbass Spotlight... at least for awhile."

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 04:06 PM
On behalf of many moderate Arizonans I'd like to say, "THANK YOU Indiana republicans. You've out-stupided our own moronic legislators and stolen the Dumbass Spotlight... at least for awhile."It's only Monday!

Nicholas Scheuer
03-30-2015, 04:41 PM
I grew up in Indiana. When I moved to Minnesota many years later I discovered what a REAL State is like.

The "bat **** crazy" people are the folks like Illinois' new governor who what to imitate Indiana.

John Smith
03-30-2015, 05:29 PM
Has anyone seen George Stephanopolis (?) ask Pence several times a simple "yes or no" as to whether this law makes it legal to discriminate against gays and deny them service? Pence would not answer.

I still think this law goes further than allowing religious beliefs to condone not serving gays. Suppose religious beliefs oppose paying overtime.

There's a lot of unforeseen consequences possible here.

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 05:41 PM
Using Religion as a reason for something neg is gonna explode in the faces of gov. like Pence! I hope it does as it opens the road to incorporate a lot of regs/laws using religion as the reason.

Chris Smith porter maine
03-30-2015, 05:42 PM
The giant sucking sound of Tech Company's exiting Indiana is about to start.

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 06:05 PM
Good! I hope Pence is happy with the employment situation and the tax revenues lost. Great for the state budget too! If only other big businesses leave too.

Reynard38
03-30-2015, 06:26 PM
A large sporting event is coming soon in Indianapolis. Should be interesting.

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 06:30 PM
Angieslist is pulling out too. At this time, only the Indianapolis area. I think that will be the start of the final withdrawal from Indiana for her. May not be a huge issue for many but, Angieslist I suspect is national.

BrianW
03-30-2015, 07:01 PM
My prediction if it's not reversed...

Nothing big will happen. The State of Indian will survive, and no one is going to be discriminated against.

Oh, maybe Jane and Jill won't be able to have Our Savior Photography take their wedding pictures, but they'll find another photographer with no problem.

Yes I understand the possible implications, I just don't see them happening in real life.

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 07:06 PM
Is that what the German leader said to his people in the 30's. It's nothing, don't worry! It was a slow process to get rid of those he didn't like, weren't good enough but, by WW2. it became real. Kinda like not getting the bees wound up when you get the honey out. Slow and steady until bees don't even realize the honey had been extracted.

BrianW
03-30-2015, 07:13 PM
Okay Jamie. You think it's going to end up a Nazi State, and I think it will blow over. Interesting and hugely different forecasts.

Guess time will tell.

We should check back in a year. Lets remember April Fools Day as a reminder.

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 07:16 PM
That's what the Germans thought until they found themselves persecuted, imprisoned etc. They thought, It couldn't/wouldn't happen to THEM!

BrianW
03-30-2015, 07:18 PM
So maybe we'll all be under Nazi control by next year. Let's shorten the time frame then, and recheck it on the summer solstice?

bobbys
03-30-2015, 07:20 PM
Is that what the German leader said to his people in the 30's. It's nothing, don't worry! It was a slow process to get rid of those he didn't like, weren't good enough but, by WW2. it became real. Kinda like not getting the bees wound up when you get the honey out. Slow and steady until bees don't even realize the honey had been extracted.
.
Godwin's law already?

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 07:24 PM
Let's see, if we are stupid enough to elect one of the idiots, it could happen. If they take lessons from Germany in the thirties, what they do isn't all happening all at once. That might draw unnecessary attention It will be a slow and insidious process until the people won't know what hit them. Just look at Germany in the 30's for a template. Relate it to what's happening now..

Canoeyawl
03-30-2015, 07:26 PM
Wilco Cancels Indiana Show to Protest State’s Religious Freedom Law...

http://time.com/3764556/wilco-indiana-religious-freedom-law/

hokiefan
03-30-2015, 07:31 PM
A large sporting event is coming soon in Indianapolis. Should be interesting.

I'm guessing it won't be there next year.

Cheers,

Bobby

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 07:32 PM
Soon after Gov. Mike Pence signed the religious freedom bill into law Thursday, Salesforce.com founder and CEO Marc Benioff announced on Twitter that he would no longer send employees or customers to Indiana.
"Today we are canceling all programs that require our customers/employees to travel to Indiana to face discrimination," he tweeted.

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 07:36 PM
AFSCME Women's Conference Leaving IndianaAFSCME President Lee Saunders released the following statement about AFSCME's decision to move it's 2015 Women's Conference out of Indiana due to the recent legislation passed that legalizes discrimination.
"This past week, Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed into law a bill that legalizes discrimination, allowing businesses to refuse service to customers simply because they are gay or lesbian. Further, since Governor Pence claims disingenuously that it is about religious freedom, his law protects any business owner who refuses to hire someone of a different religion from their own.
"This un-American law sets Indiana and our nation back decades in the struggle for civil rights. It is an embarrassment and cannot be tolerated. As such, AFSCME will move our 2015 Women’s Conference in October from Indianapolis, Indiana, to another state. We will send additional details about the conference’s new location and any necessary date change as they become available.
"The 1.6 million members of AFSCME cannot in good conscience make such a sizeable financial investment in Indiana knowing that women and men in that state are deliberately being targeted for discrimination.
"Throughout our proud history, our union has stood up whenever injustice has occurred – be it for striking sanitation workers in Memphis in 1968, or for the victims of apartheid in South Africa in the 1980s. Governor Pence’s law, motivated by ultra-right wing zealots, is an affront to the vast majority of those in our nation who believe that every American deserves equal treatment under the law, no matter whom they love or where they worship.
"AFSCME is pulling our Women’s Conference out of Indiana this fall as a sign of our disgust and disappointment with Governor Pence’s discriminatory law. We stand with the ever-growing number of corporations and associations who are taking similar action this week, and demanding fairness for all in the state of Indiana."
AFSCME's 1.6 million members provide the vital services that make America happen. With members in hundreds of different occupations — from nurses to corrections officers, child care providers to sanitation workers — AFSCME advocates for fairness in the workplace, excellence in public services and prosperity and opportunity for all working families.

David G
03-30-2015, 07:38 PM
My prediction if it's not reversed...

Nothing big will happen. The State of Indian will survive, and no one is going to be discriminated against.

Oh, maybe Jane and Jill won't be able to have Our Savior Photography take their wedding pictures, but they'll find another photographer with no problem.

Yes I understand the possible implications, I just don't see them happening in real life.

Bless your optimistic soul!

CWSmith
03-30-2015, 07:39 PM
A lot has been said about small businesses like wedding photographers, where it may not amount to much, but I keep thinking of the Hobby Lobby agenda. They already used their religious beliefs to take a bite out of Obamacare. What if they are anti-gay, or against women working outside the home? This kind of thinking can develop a life that impacts a lot of people in unexpected ways

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-30-2015, 08:11 PM
Yessiree, America is the pillar of freedom and light throughout the world. What a crock.

On the other hand, the response to this has been swift and sure. Indiana has already suffered millions of dollars of investment or tourism as a result of this debacle. These legislators are not very bright. This was incredibly predictable, and the fallout will be longstanding, regardless of whether they fix it or repeal it.

John of Phoenix
03-30-2015, 08:14 PM
" This kind of thinking can develop a life that impacts a lot of people in unexpected ways."

Just ask Pence. :D

David G
03-30-2015, 08:19 PM
The tech backlash against Indiana is growing as companies pull out of a big conference there


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tech-backlash-against-indiana-growing-204814895.html

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-30-2015, 08:32 PM
Oh, this is instantly going to cost Indiana a billion dollars. I would guess the IndyData conference will be cancelled altogether. The big sponsors fund the event essentially, and seven are gone now.

mikefrommontana
03-30-2015, 08:33 PM
The problem of laws such as Indiana's is that it leads to the "death of a thousand cuts" of our civil liberties--which already are having a hard go of it.

If the "religious freedom" law truly has no effect, then why go through the trouble of legislating it--ergo, it's meant to support or do something that otherwise would not be tenable.

Oh, and Angie's List? Apparently they were not succeeding in fishing for tax incentives to build in Indianapolis and were likely to pull the plug on the project anyway--the bill gave them political cover.

http://www.ibj.com/articles/49968-angies-list-plans-big-expansion-with-25m-in-public-help

CWSmith
03-30-2015, 08:37 PM
Indiana has already suffered millions of dollars of investment or tourism as a result of this debacle.

I think the governor has been surprised by the swift response and that it includes money. Good! This might prove to be more entertaining than originally anticipated.

S.V. Airlie
03-30-2015, 08:39 PM
Really entertaining! Wasn't pence thinking of a presidential run too?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-30-2015, 08:53 PM
It's always fun to see a political party that includes haters commit hari kari on screen.

Keith Wilson
03-30-2015, 09:15 PM
I ran into this photo of a sign from a Methodist church in Portland. It's apparently gone viral; seems appropriate:

https://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10801480_10153280462767228_6337990962343847272_n.j pg?oh=bca5d161bf6bd4b4185511598dff21e5&oe=5573AC6C

David G
03-30-2015, 09:25 PM
Yup... just down the street from our house in NE Portland.

David G
03-30-2015, 11:14 PM
Front page editorial in tomorrow's Indianapolis Star --

http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/2015/03/30/editorial-gov-pence-fix-religious-freedom-law-now/70698802/


We are at a critical moment in Indiana's history.
And much is at stake.

Our image. Our reputation as a state that embraces people of diverse backgrounds and makes them feel welcome. And our efforts over many years to retool our economy, to attract talented workers and thriving businesses, and to improve the quality of life for millions of Hoosiers.

All of this is at risk because of a new law, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, that no matter its original intent already has done enormous harm to our state and potentially our economic future.

The consequences will only get worse if our state leaders delay in fixing the deep mess created.
Half steps will not be enough. Half steps will not undo the damage.


INDIANAPOLIS STAR
Here it is: The text of Indiana's ‘religious freedom’ law (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/27/text-indianas-religious-freedom-law/70539772/)



Only bold action — action that sends an unmistakable message to the world that our state will not tolerate discrimination against any of its citizens — will be enough to reverse the damage.

Gov. Mike Pence and the General Assembly need to enact a state law to prohibit discrimination in employment, housing, education and public accommodations on the basis of a person's sexual orientation or gender identity.
Those protections and RFRA can co-exist. They do elsewhere.

Laws protecting sexual orientation and gender identity are not foreign to Indiana.

Indianapolis, for example, has had those legal protections in place for nearly a decade. Indy's law applies to businesses with more than six employees, and exempts religious organizations and non-profit groups.

The city's human rights ordinance provides strong legal protection — and peace of mind —for LGBT citizens; yet, it has not placed an undue burden on businesses.

Importantly, passage of a state human rights law would send a clear message that Indiana will not tolerate discrimination. It's crucial for that message to be communicated widely.



INDIANAPOLIS STAR
Ballard, council to legislature: Repeal law, protect LGBT from discrimination
(http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/30/ballard-council-address-rfra-today/70674176/)



On a practical level, by basing the state law on a 10-year-old ordinance, the General Assembly could move quickly to adopt the measure without fear of unintended consequences. If lawmakers can't act in the next month, the governor should call a special session immediately after the regular session ends in April to take up human rights legislation.

Why not simply repeal RFRA? First, it appears to be politically unacceptable for the governor and many Republican lawmakers.

Second, there are Hoosiers who support RFRA out of a genuine desire to protect religious freedom. To safeguard that essential freedom, 19 states and the federal government have adopted RFRA laws, largely without controversy. But states like Illinois not only protect religious freedom through RFRA but also provide gay and lesbian residents with protected legal status.

Third, repeal might get rid of the heat but it would not do what is most important – to move the state forward.
We urge Gov. Pence and lawmakers to stop clinging to arguments about whether RFRA really does what critics fear; to stop clinging to ideology or personal preferences; to focus instead on fixing this.

Governor, Indiana is in a state of crisis. It is worse than you seem to understand.

You must act with courage and wisdom. You must lead us forward now. You must ensure that all Hoosiers have strong protections against discrimination.

The laws can co-exist. And so can we.

elf
03-30-2015, 11:33 PM
So, just out of curiosity how was this law supposed to operate? Were those who chose to refuse service required to post announcements to that effect in the entrances to their places of business? Were they required to post on their web sites?

How was a gay person supposed to determine that a business did not wish to do business with them?

Clearly, the purpose of the bill was to give cover to someone in a discrimination case in court, once the vendor had realized they did not wish to serve a customer with whom they were already doing business.

But, you know, there are so many ways someone can slip out of an agreement. It's very hard to prove that their motivation might have been bigotry.

Mike H
03-31-2015, 08:25 AM
Indiana Gov. Mike Pence swung back again Monday at critics of the state's controversial "religious freedom" law, writing in a Wall Street Journal op-ed that Obamacare had made it imperative to ensure that "religious liberty is fully protected under Indiana law."

Noting that the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act — which President Bill Clinton signed into law in 1993 — didn't apply to states, Pence argued in an article being published Tuesday that Indiana was only doing what 19 other states have done. And he stressed that Indiana's identically named law has nothing to do with limiting the rights of same-sex couples.

"I abhor discrimination. I believe in the Golden Rule that you should 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you,'" Pence wrote. "If I saw a restaurant owner refuse to serve a gay couple, I wouldn't eat there anymore."

Pence said his support for the law was driven by the 2010 Affordable Care Act, which he said "renewed concerns about government infringement on deeply held religious beliefs."

Pence cited a 2014 Supreme Court decision, Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, to back up his argument. That ruling found that federal regulations requiring religious employers to provide their female employees with free access to contraception were unconstitutional.

"Indiana's new law contains no reference to sexual orientation," Pence wrote, adding: "As governor of Indiana, if I were presented a bill that legalized discrimination against any person or group, I would veto it."

Pence has gone on the offensive in the face of opposition from a wide array of social, cultural and business institutions that have accused Indiana of having given business owners license to discriminate against gay people and same-sex couples.

Sunday, Pence told ABC News that the backlash was fueled by "shameless rhetoric about my state and about this law and its intention."

SOCIAL:

It's this important. Tuesday's front page. #rfra pic.twitter.com/gVPf82J2iu

— Mark Alesia (@markalesia) March 31, 2015

Darn that Obamacare.

Norman Bernstein
03-31-2015, 08:38 AM
My prediction if it's not reversed...

Nothing big will happen. The State of Indian will survive, and no one is going to be discriminated against.

Oh, maybe Jane and Jill won't be able to have Our Savior Photography take their wedding pictures, but they'll find another photographer with no problem.

Yes I understand the possible implications, I just don't see them happening in real life.

So, as long as it only happens to a few people, discrimination is no big deal?

Bobcat
03-31-2015, 09:21 AM
So, as long as it only happens to a few people, discrimination is no big deal?

Yup, as long as my kid doesn't have to sit in the back of the bus, who cares?

Well, my kid would have to sit in the back of the bus.

So here's a question: what if your religion dictated that you could not do business with black people or non-christians, would the right wing still support it?

John Smith
03-31-2015, 09:24 AM
The people of Indiana elected these people, so it's not unreasonable to assume they reflect the people of Indiana.

I'm waiting for some of the lawsuits. If you are not gay and are refused service because they believe you are gay, it will make an interesting case.

Why everyone thinks this stops at gays puzzles me. I can see a store refusing to serve a woman in Muslim garb? Or visa versa.

Back to the question: Are we to be a nation of laws or religious beliefs?

S.V. Airlie
03-31-2015, 09:26 AM
Yup, as long as my kid doesn't have to sit in the back of the bus, who cares?

Well, my kid would have to sit in the back of the bus.

So here's a question: what if your religion dictated that you could not do business with black people or non-christians, would the right wing still support it? Guess it depends on the no. of voters who could vote. Gay/Lesbians can and probably vote but in fewer numbers. Hence they have been targeted first.

David G
03-31-2015, 09:45 AM
Georgia decides... maybe not --

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/03/30/georgia-legislature-drops-plans-for-religious-freedom-bill-after-watching-indiana-implode/

Canoeyawl
03-31-2015, 09:54 AM
The people of Indiana elected these people, so it's not unreasonable to assume they reflect the people of Indiana.

I'm waiting for some of the lawsuits.

Back to the question: Are we to be a nation of laws or religious beliefs?

A quick study of the education that has placed many of these wing nuts in power (law students from religion funded schools mostly) will reveal a trend that has been deliberately and relentlessly going forward since Roe vs Wade. We are divided between a nation of laws and a nation of religious beliefs. Not the original intent I'm certain.

David G
03-31-2015, 10:27 AM
"No Gays Allowed" signs WOULD be allowed --

http://reverbpress.com/politics/indiana-gop-leader-concedes-no-gays-allowed-signs-permitted-state-law-video/

David G
03-31-2015, 10:43 AM
Mr. Pence defends the law --

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/mike-pence-defends-religious-freedom-law-116542.html

David G
03-31-2015, 10:49 AM
If You Want To Know The Problem With Indiana’s ‘Religious Freedom’ Law, Just Ask George W. Bush (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/03/30/3640529/indianas-license-discriminate-law-extreme-even-george-w-bush/)


http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/03/30/3640529/indianas-license-discriminate-law-extreme-even-george-w-bush/

Osborne Russell
03-31-2015, 10:57 AM
Republicans staunchly defend the rights of peyote takers and environmental extremists which is why they supported RFRA in the first place. RFRA is a federal law that "restore" religious freedom to the oppressed. Specifically, it restores the "strict scrutiny" test when someone claims the government is infringing religious freedom, e.g. to take peyote or stop development.




This led to the key cases leading up to the RFRA, which were Lyng v. Northwest Indian Cemetery Protective Association (1988) and Employment Division v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990). In Lyng, the Court was unfavorable to sacred land rights. Members of the Yurok, Tolowa and Karok tribes tried to use the First Amendment to prevent a road from being built by the U.S. Forest Service through sacred land. The land that the road would go through consisted of gathering sites for natural resources used in ceremonies and praying sites. The Supreme Court ruled that this was not an adequate legal burden because the government was not coercing or punishing them for their religious beliefs.[7] In Smith the Court upheld the state of Oregon's refusal to give unemployment benefits to two Native Americans fired from their jobs at a rehab clinic after testing positive for mescaline, the main psychoactive compound in the peyote cactus, which they used in a religious ceremony.

-- Wikipedia

Then the Hobby Lobby case came along and said that corporations have the right to the free exercise of religon. Many backers of RFRA said that wasn't what they intended. Well, next time be more careful dumazzes but bottom line, the state versions of RFRA are not repeat not the same as the federal RFRA. People who say the state RFRA's "mirror" the federal law are uninformed, or lying, or both.

The state RFRA's make free exercise of religion a defense against claims of discrimination. It is, in effect a license to discriminate. Calling it a license is not exactly accurate but it amounts to the same thing.

More important, I surmise, in the future, will be another thing that makes the State RFRA's different from the federal: the extension of free exercise of "religion" to corporations.

Brings us back to "restoration". What freedom is being "restored"? The Constitution has guaranteed free exercise to "persons" since 1787, so that isn't it. The Federal RFRA "restored" a standard of review in such cases in Federal Courts, so that isn't it either.

The states have always been free to have higher standards. Many state constitutions do have guarantees of rights that go beyond what the Federal Constitution provides. And of course they can enact some more any time they like. So what is being "restored"? Nothing. The "restoration" bit is dishonest. It's lying by distortion and deliberate omission.

These liars can be smoked out by asking them to explain what their conception of the purpose of the state RFRA's is. When they roll out their blab about the importance of protecting the free exercise of religion, chop it off with an axe: why isn't the Bill of Rights enough? What does the state RFRA add and why is it necessary?

Don't let them drag you into their passive-aggressive aw shucks game.

Osborne Russell
03-31-2015, 11:07 AM
"No Gays Allowed" signs WOULD be allowed --

http://reverbpress.com/politics/indiana-gop-leader-concedes-no-gays-allowed-signs-permitted-state-law-video/

Yep.



"If you were in a community that had a human rights ordinance that wouldn’t be the case.”

The reporter did not let up:

“But most of the state does not have that, correct?”

Bosma was then forced to admit that the reporter was correct.

These people are going to F around and wind up with an amendment to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 making discrimination on the basis of sexual preference both criminal and an avenue of private lawsuits. I think they see that coming and are trying to forestall it by enshrining anti-LGBT discrimination as time-hallowed practice, starting now. Either way, it brings in the money to the ambitious candidates.

John Smith
03-31-2015, 11:36 AM
Republicans staunchly defend the rights of peyote takers and environmental extremists which is why they supported RFRA in the first place. RFRA is a federal law that "restore" religious freedom to the oppressed. Specifically, it restores the "strict scrutiny" test when someone claims the government is infringing religious freedom, e.g. to take peyote or stop development.




Then the Hobby Lobby case came along and said that corporations have the right to the free exercise of religon. Many backers of RFRA said that wasn't what they intended. Well, next time be more careful dumazzes but bottom line, the state versions of RFRA are not repeat not the same as the federal RFRA. People who say the state RFRA's "mirror" the federal law are uninformed, or lying, or both.

The state RFRA's make free exercise of religion a defense against claims of discrimination. It is, in effect a license to discriminate. Calling it a license is not exactly accurate but it amounts to the same thing.

More important, I surmise, in the future, will be another thing that makes the State RFRA's different from the federal: the extension of free exercise of "religion" to corporations.

Brings us back to "restoration". What freedom is being "restored"? The Constitution has guaranteed free exercise to "persons" since 1787, so that isn't it. The Federal RFRA "restored" a standard of review in such cases in Federal Courts, so that isn't it either.

The states have always been free to have higher standards. Many state constitutions do have guarantees of rights that go beyond what the Federal Constitution provides. And of course they can enact some more any time they like. So what is being "restored"? Nothing. The "restoration" bit is dishonest. It's lying by distortion and deliberate omission.

These liars can be smoked out by asking them to explain what their conception of the purpose of the state RFRA's is. When they roll out their blab about the importance of protecting the free exercise of religion, chop it off with an axe: why isn't the Bill of Rights enough? What does the state RFRA add and why is it necessary?

Don't let them drag you into their passive-aggressive aw shucks game.

To those who pay attention, the Republican have not told the truth, or been correct in predictions, since '92. The sad part is it has worked well for them.

John Smith
03-31-2015, 11:39 AM
"No Gays Allowed" signs WOULD be allowed --

http://reverbpress.com/politics/indiana-gop-leader-concedes-no-gays-allowed-signs-permitted-state-law-video/

It doesn't necessarily end with gays. "No women in Muslim dress allowed" would also be legal. "Help wanted: women need not apply"

this has great potential for ugliness. And when a person is assumed to be gay and not served, how's the lawsuit come out?

S.V. Airlie
03-31-2015, 12:43 PM
Well, apparently J. Bush and Cruzamatic supports it!

BrianW
03-31-2015, 12:53 PM
These people are going to F around and wind up with an amendment to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 making discrimination on the basis of sexual preference both criminal and an avenue of private lawsuits.

Could be. It's a bit of a pendulum effect going on in this area.

At first businesses owners could just say no.

Then the LGBT community started suing to force business owners to service them.

Then laws like this started getting passed by conservative governments to help protect business owners from lawsuits.

So yes, possible the next swing back could be an amendment. I think there will be a happy middle ground found before that happens. The Indiana law doesn't appear to be it.

David G
03-31-2015, 01:01 PM
Could be. It's a bit of a pendulum effect going on in this area.

At first businesses owners could just say no.

Then the LGBT community started suing to force business owners to service them.

Then laws like this started getting passed by conservative governments to help protect business owners from lawsuits.

So yes, possible the next swing back could be an amendment. I think there will be a happy middle ground found before that happens. The Indiana law doesn't appear to be it.

Wow... a small biz owner in Alaska can be forced to service a gay guy? That seems excessive. No wonder ALEC is writing these laws!!! Or... is it just Juneau??? <G>

John of Phoenix
03-31-2015, 01:20 PM
I think there will be a happy middle ground found before that happens.Only RINOS do that "middle ground" crap.

Canoeyawl
03-31-2015, 02:15 PM
This all sounds familiar to those of us old enough to remember segregation and all it's dirty tricks.

“Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”
— Judge Leon M. Bazile, January 6, 1959


"Theodore Bilbo was one of Mississippi’s great demagogues. After two non-consecutive terms as governor, Bilbo won a U.S. Senate seat campaigning against “farmer murderers, corrupters of Southern womanhood, [skunks] who steal Gideon Bibles from hotel rooms” and a host of other, equally colorful foes. In a year where just 47 Mississippi voters cast a ballot for a communist candidate, Bilbo railed against a looming communist takeover of the state — and offered himself up as the solution to this red onslaught.
Bilbo was also a virulent racist. “I call on every red-blooded white man to use any means to keep the n
ggers away from the polls,” Bilbo proclaimed during his successful reelection campaign in 1946. He was a proud member of the Ku Klux Klan, telling Meet the Press that same year that “[n]o man can leave the Klan. He takes an oath not to do that. Once a Ku Klux, always a Ku Klux.” During a filibuster of an anti-lynching bill, Bilbo claimed that the bill will open the floodgates of hell in the South. Raping, mobbing, lynching, race riots, and crime will be increased a thousandfold; and upon your garments and the garments of those who are responsible for the passage of the measure will be the blood of the raped and outraged daughters of Dixie, as well as the blood of the perpetrators of these crimes that the red-blooded Anglo-Saxon White Southern men will not tolerate".

link (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/02/26/3333161/religious-liberty-racist-anti-gay/)

Keith Wilson
03-31-2015, 02:18 PM
Yep, it used to be "The n***ers are coming to marry your daughters!" Now it's "The lesbians are coming to marry your daughters!"

A good comment by Jonathan Chait (source (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/03/mike-pence-forced-to-amend-religious-freedom-law.html)):


Conservatives are not wrong to discern a powerful and increasingly imbalanced array of cultural forces aligned against them. Nor is their desire to maintain some place of sanctuary for traditional social conservative beliefs. People who consider homosexuality unnatural, or a deviant choice, will continue to have the right to preach their beliefs in church, instruct their children as they see fit, exclude gay weddings from their church ceremonies, and so on. They are losing their ability to use the machinery of state government to express their moral disapproval of gays. The battleground centers on a relatively small middle ground of businesses, such as bakers and adoption agencies, that are involved in work related to marriage and child-rearing.

Well, things are changing.

http://towleroad.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c730253ef01bb0802d891970d-800wi

But look how it's distributed. What a surprise.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9iJHPOIMAAso1v.png

S.V. Airlie
03-31-2015, 02:41 PM
AND HERE COMES ARKANSAS!

The mayor of Little Rock has asked the Arkansas governor to halt a religious freedom bill similar to one recently passed in Indiana, saying in a letter on Tuesday the legislation is unnecessary, divisive and could hurt the state's economy.
The Republican-dominated Arkansas House could vote as early as Tuesday on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, just as human rights groups, business leaders and others across the country protest the new Indiana law, which has the same name.
Both laws aim to keep the state government from forcing business owners to act against their religious beliefs, but critics say they could be used to justify refusing service to gay and lesbian people.
"Any piece of legislation that is so divisive cannot possibly be good for the state of Arkansas and its people. With these kind of 'wedge issues,' no one is a winner on either side," Mark Stodola, the Democratic mayor of the state's biggest city, wrote to Governor Asa Hutchinson, a Republican.
The measure, which was overwhelmingly approved by the Republican-controlled Arkansas Senate last week, is expected to be approved by the Republican-dominated House. Hutchinson has said he would sign it.
The outcry over the Indiana law was so fierce that state's governor, Republican Mike Pence, on Tuesday said he would "correct" the legislation to make it clear businesses cannot use it to discriminate against same-sex couples.
Supporters have said the Arkansas bill would not allow for discrimination. Critics, including the world’s largest retailer Wal-Mart, which is based in Arkansas, said it sends the wrong message about the state.
(Writing by Jon Herskovitz; Editing by Lisa Lambert

S.V. Airlie
03-31-2015, 02:42 PM
The measure, which was overwhelmingly approved by the Republican-controlled Arkansas Senate last week, is expected to be approved by the Republican-dominated House. Hutchinson has said he would sign it.
The outcry over the Indiana law was so fierce that state's governor, Republican Mike Pence, on Tuesday said he would "correct" the legislation to make it clear businesses cannot use it to discriminate against same-sex couples.
Supporters have said the Arkansas bill would not allow for discrimination. Critics, including the world’s largest retailer Wal-Mart, which is based in Arkansas, said it sends the wrong message about the state.
(Writing by Jon Herskovitz; Editing by Lisa Lambert

Osborne Russell
03-31-2015, 02:47 PM
Could be. It's a bit of a pendulum effect going on in this area.

At first businesses owners could just say no.

Then the LGBT community started suing to force business owners to service them.

Then laws like this started getting passed by conservative governments to help protect business owners from lawsuits.

So yes, possible the next swing back could be an amendment. I think there will be a happy middle ground found before that happens. The Indiana law doesn't appear to be it.

You can't sue unless you have a right. So whoever was doing the suing had a right. If the business owners were violating it, they're legally responsible. What do they need protection from?

What's your proposal for a middle ground?

John Smith
03-31-2015, 03:45 PM
It's entirely possible this will be the proverbial straw. This may wake up the sleeping public. Maybe the vast majority of voters will see today's GOP for what it is and be angry enough to actually vote next election.

If we assume the polls are correct, and these laws represent the views of a minority of Americans, and they anger the rest, anger is a strong motivation. Maybe we'll see an election where fewer stay home.

Meanwhile, I hope those companies who have threatened Indiana don't back down. Let this law do so much damage to the state that even Republican citizens vote for the Democrats.

RonW
03-31-2015, 04:29 PM
It seems that the left hasn't figured out that this little deal has eliminated governor of indiana Mike Pence from throwing his hat in the ring as republican candidate for prez.

S.V. Airlie
03-31-2015, 04:31 PM
Why do you think we haven't Ron? Oh, that's a question, never mind!

TomF
03-31-2015, 05:10 PM
Indiana wants me. Lord, I can't go back there.

Canoeyawl
03-31-2015, 05:12 PM
Well, apparently J. Bush and Cruzamatic supports it!

J Bush will support anything, dead or dying

John Smith
03-31-2015, 05:24 PM
It seems that the left hasn't figured out that this little deal has eliminated governor of indiana Mike Pence from throwing his hat in the ring as republican candidate for prez.

Why would the left care?

John Smith
03-31-2015, 06:02 PM
If I owned a restaurant in Indiana, I'd have a huge sign up: "ALL ARE WELCOME AND WILL BE SERVED"

This would bring those who oppose this law into my business, and I'd make more money. Soon, those businesses without such a sign will be reasonably assumed to not want to serve gays.

Some may not want to serve Jews or Muslims, or people they think are Jews or Muslims. Religious freedom is not limited to discriminating against gays.

S.V. Airlie
03-31-2015, 06:38 PM
If I owned a restaurant in Indiana, I'd have a huge sign up: "ALL ARE WELCOME AND WILL BE SERVED"

This would bring those who oppose this law into my business, and I'd make more money. Soon, those businesses without such a sign will be reasonably assumed to not want to serve gays.

Some may not want to serve Jews or Muslims, or people they think are Jews or Muslims. Religious freedom is not limited to discriminating against gays.Sorry, my sign would read, "All welcome except the bigots".

ccmanuals
03-31-2015, 07:01 PM
Why would the left care?

I was thinking the same thing.

David G
03-31-2015, 09:48 PM
The New York Times weighs in --

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/31/opinion/in-indiana-using-religion-as-a-cover-for-bigotry.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0


If Mr. Pence is genuinely concerned about why people may be misunderstanding the law, he could start by looking in the mirror. Under persistent questioning on ABC News’s “This Week (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/week-transcript-maryland-governor-martin-omalley/story?id=29953609&singlePage=true)” on Sunday morning, Mr. Pence insisted that the law “is not about discrimination,” but about “empowering people.”


That claim is impossible to square with his refusal to consider a statewide law protecting gays and lesbians from discrimination (about a dozen Indiana cities, including most of the largest ones, already have such laws). On Sunday, Mr. Pence said he agreed (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/30/us/politics/legislators-in-indiana-may-clarify-beliefs-law.html) that it would be helpful to “clarify” the law’s intent, even though it is already perfectly clear. The freedom to exercise one’s religion is not under assault in Indiana, or anywhere else in the country. Religious people — including Christians, who continue to make up the majority of Americans — may worship however they wish and say whatever they like.


But religion should not be allowed to serve as a cover for discrimination in the public sphere. In the past, racial discrimination was also justified (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/02/26/3333161/religious-liberty-racist-anti-gay/) by religious beliefs, yet businesses may not refuse service to customers because of their race. Such behavior should be no more tolerable when it is based on sexual orientation.

RonW
03-31-2015, 09:59 PM
Why would the left care?


I was thinking the same thing.

Why, because it isn't the fact that he signed it, as you might think, but after he signed it and the blowback came from the left wing media, he waffled and hesitated.
Instead of standing strong and tall, and I doubt that the left understands this fine point.

S.V. Airlie
03-31-2015, 10:53 PM
why, because it isn't the fact that he signed it, as you might think, but after he signed it and the blowback came from the left wing media, he waffled and hesitated.
Instead of standing strong and tall, and i doubt that the left understands this fine point.babble, babble, babble,babble,babble!

David G
03-31-2015, 11:49 PM
Pence forced to cancel appearances at various Lincoln Day events around the state.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/news/ct-ptb-lincoln-pence-st-0401-20150331-story.html

hokiefan
04-01-2015, 12:07 AM
Pence's history of being strongly anti-LGBT in Congress isn't helping his case any. Everyone knows who wrote the law and what he thinks about it. Miserable creatures every one of them.

Bobby

Lew Barrett
04-01-2015, 12:58 AM
I watched him on CNBC this morning. CNBC runs towards the conservative but even they commented on his moving lips as they backed and filled. Just dumb.

John Smith
04-01-2015, 09:04 AM
Why, because it isn't the fact that he signed it, as you might think, but after he signed it and the blowback came from the left wing media, he waffled and hesitated.
Instead of standing strong and tall, and I doubt that the left understands this fine point.

Blowback came from only the left wing media?

You're not worth responding to.

John Smith
04-01-2015, 09:06 AM
Pence's history of being strongly anti-LGBT in Congress isn't helping his case any. Everyone knows who wrote the law and what he thinks about it. Miserable creatures every one of them.

Bobby

Good news may be this will wake up the apathetic and they will vote next election. We can hope. The country is seeing what Republicans in charge means. Most don't like it. The people can change this by voting for democrats.

David G
04-01-2015, 10:04 AM
Some commentators are excusing this law - saying all it does is echo the Federal law. No... not really --

http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/03/31/media-misleadingly-compare-anti-lgbt-indiana-la/203105

David G
04-02-2015, 07:30 PM
Hey... it's a GREAT place, now, to be a Wiccan --

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/wiccans-say-indiana-religious-freedom-law-opens-the-door-to-polygamy-nude-rituals-at-the-capitol/


For example, he explained, many Wiccans believe “that love is the law,” so while polygamous marriages are not a tenet of Wiccan theology, “whatever we want to do with marriage we can do. Carte blanche. If I want to marry a horse, I can marry a horse.”


Wiccans would also legally be able to refuse drug tests in states with religious freedom laws, because “natural” substances like marijuana and hallucinogens are “herbs” used to enhance experience at officially sanctioned religious ceremonies. Moreover, Dionne explained, giving the blood or urine samples required for such tests would run contrary to their belief that the “body is a temple,” and “if you come for a piece of my temple, I can say no.”


They would also be free to dance naked on state Capitol steps so long as the moon was full, as a Wiccan holy text — “The Charge of the Goddess” — sanctions the practice.

S.V. Airlie
04-02-2015, 07:45 PM
Cuomo is not letting employees go to Indiana either. I hear the coach of the Albany team can't go on gov. expense account. Not following March Madness but, if the team is still in it, I feel sorry for the coach.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-02-2015, 09:19 PM
This is quite entertaining to watch. To see state politicians assist the suicide of their own economy is pretty amazing. I would think Indiana is going to experience a couple of billion dollars in lost economic activity. Crazy.

David G
04-03-2015, 12:26 AM
So now both Indiana and Arkansas are modifying their already passed laws to 'clarify' them... i.e. backpedal.

The thing is - this is just one more example of conservative think tanks helping state legislatures slowly chip away at the foundations of our nation. They are working hard to make the entire country reflect the cultural beliefs (pathologies?) of a small, but vocal and well-funded minority. They over-reached in this case... and have gotten slapped down. But know this: the efforts are ongoing and unceasing.

Rust never sleeps.

ccmanuals
04-03-2015, 10:47 AM
God's vengeance on Indiana? :)

https://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11081408_854053501341369_3572417344173496004_n.jpg ?oh=4094e4b19357113207cf67ebd0d42554&oe=5570A005

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xft1/v/t1.0-9/10599522_854053674674685_4133436989539363318_n.jpg ?oh=0a7bd574c0db27e07667e263d79d2c55&oe=55A3DDC8&__gda__=1436256066_0060b400e9eea46606c69bbb9f893af f

https://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/10432965_854053654674687_3883605191633378709_n.jpg ?oh=ec727c29d6e87a9395ca72da596ff7d7&oe=55A80C33

David G
04-13-2015, 11:57 PM
The electorate's vengeance on Mike Pence?

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/13/indiana_governors_approval_rating_plummets_after_d isastrous_anti_gay_religious_freedom_bill/


Indiana Governor Mike Pence — who frequently refers to himself (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/04/12/shifting-landscape-gay-rights-rfra-gop/25658283/) as “a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order” — believed that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) would mobilize his conservative base. Instead, it created a backlash that has effectively torpedoed the Republican’s chance at a national office.




According to a poll (http://hrc-assets.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com//files/assets/resources/HRC_(Indiana_public_memo)_415.pdf) conducted by the Human Rights Campaign (HRC), signing the RFRA has led even led to a significant erosion in popularity in Indiana. As recently as February of this year, Governor Pence enjoyed a 62 percent approval score. Since the passage of the RFRA, however, his unfavorable rating has crept up to 53 percent, while his favorable rating plummeted to 38 percent.


Hoosiers reject the idea that a business should be able to refuse service to members of the LGBT community on the basis of religious conviction by a 2-to-1 margin. Moreover — and irrespective of their opinion about the bill — more than 75 percent of Indiana voters say that signing it is a crippling blow to businesses. Only 10 percent of people polled believed that the bill would have a positive effect on business.


Instead of mobilizing the base, Pence’s actions divided it along familiar lines — with religious conservatives supporting him and fiscal conservatives opposing. But tellingly, even among those respondents who identified as observant Christians, 58 percent believed that discrimination on religious grounds should not be allowed.


The local response to the RFRA tracks with national opinion. As Amy E. Black, a political science professor at Wheaton College, told (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/04/12/shifting-landscape-gay-rights-rfra-gop/25658283/) The Indianapolis Star, “the national shift in views of gay rights has been lightning fast. Positions which were mainstream in both parties only a few years ago are quickly becoming marginalized.”

PeterSibley
04-14-2015, 03:28 AM
Let's see, if we are stupid enough to elect one of the idiots, it could happen. If they take lessons from Germany in the thirties, what they do isn't all happening all at once. That might draw unnecessary attention It will be a slow and insidious process until the people won't know what hit them. Just look at Germany in the 30's for a template. Relate it to what's happening now..

From outside the tent looking in the resemblance is unsettling, I'd suggest the Right actually think about who their fathers and grandfathers fought against.