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LeeG
03-26-2015, 07:28 AM
We're helping Iranian led Shia militias fight Daesh in Tikrit with air power while assisting Gulf powers with some kind of assistance to roll back Houthis which will open up opportunities for Al Qaeda.


I forgot, darn that Obama.

http://www.juancole.com/2015/03/washingtons-saudis-yemen.html

Paul Pless
03-26-2015, 07:33 AM
Seventy years of misteps in the Mideast catching up with us. There are no good moves except to leave, and even that has severe consequences. But we should cut our losses now.

LeeG
03-26-2015, 07:36 AM
I'm going to move 60 kayaks and bbq some meat later. Figuring this stuff out just isn't rewarding.

John Smith
03-26-2015, 07:44 AM
I'm not sure leaving is as simple as just leaving.

I'm reasonably sure that there's a lot of info we, the people, are not privy to. My gut, for what it's worth, tells me our president is trying to find the best way to leave.

Meanwhile, where is congress? Some want us to bomb Iran. Some want us to fight ISIS. None seem to want to put their desires to a vote.

LeeG
03-26-2015, 08:04 AM
I'm not sure leaving is as simple as just leaving.

I'm reasonably sure that there's a lot of info we, the people, are not privy to. My gut, for what it's worth, tells me our president is trying to find the best way to leave.

Meanwhile, where is congress? Some want us to bomb Iran. Some want us to fight ISIS. None seem to want to put their desires to a vote.

My comment about Obama was humor. The mess in Yemen has little to do with the US although we have been involved shooting people with Hellfires in the ongoing GWOT that can't be named.

Jim Mahan
03-26-2015, 08:21 AM
We should take an amount of money equal to the budget for our ongoing presence and operations, and pay it directly to ISIS and Iran, not to attack us and in exchange we'll leave completely and for good and we'll load up all our stuff.

Then we can keep them supplied with non-fatal aid, privatize it so it becomes a market, get 'em all hooked on opioids and meth and supply pornography, and defective prohpylactics, contaminated with AIDS virus. Or just fly them all to Texas and let the same thing just happen for free. And they have to leave all their bombs in the desert.

Paul Pless
03-26-2015, 08:26 AM
We should take an amount of money equal to the budget for our ongoing presence and operations, and pay it directly to ISIS and Iran, not to attack us and in exchange we'll leave completely and for good and we'll load up all our stuff. nah, we just need to fooking leave

And then invest that money here in both alternative and traditional energy sources. The stupidest thing we do is spend money on mideast stability ensuring low oil prices to our economic rivals like China, Korea, and Japan. They spend nothing securing cheap energy - we just give it to them at are our expense. Let the price of oil be someone else's responsibility. Would love to see Russia and China dealing with mideast tribal politics instead of ourselves. . .


Stupid Stupid Stupid

Paul Pless
03-26-2015, 08:26 AM
Oh, we should tell Israel to **** off while we're at it. . . :)

Jim Mahan
03-26-2015, 08:59 AM
I wasn't actually serious. I agree completely with your post.

John Smith
03-26-2015, 09:07 AM
nah, we just need to fooking leave

And then invest that money here in both alternative and traditional energy sources. The stupidest thing we do is spend money on mideast stability ensuring low oil prices to our economic rivals like China, Korea, and Japan. They spend nothing securing cheap energy - we just give it to them at are our expense. Let the price of oil be someone else's responsibility. Would love to see Russia and China dealing with mideast tribal politics instead of ourselves. . .


Stupid Stupid Stupid

Lot of merit to this post. If we didn't need oil I suspect a lot of this would look different.

John Smith
03-26-2015, 09:08 AM
Saw one interesting thing last night. We use two bases in Afghanistan to launch drones. Maybe that's why our leaving Afghanistan doesn't seem to be coming.

Thread has appropriate title.

Phillip Allen
03-26-2015, 09:12 AM
Seventy years of misteps in the Mideast catching up with us. There are no good moves except to leave, and even that has severe consequences. But we should cut our losses now.

I think the phrase is 'cut-bait'... as in "fish or cut-bait"

George Jung
03-26-2015, 09:13 AM
I'm going to move 60 kayaks and bbq some meat later. Figuring this stuff out just isn't rewarding.

60 kayaks? Details, please.

Mad Scientist
03-26-2015, 03:54 PM
...If we didn't need oil I suspect a lot of this would look different.

We don't - there's plenty of oil in the Americas to see us through, IF we were to embark upon an orderly transition to a (mostly) petroleum-free economy.
Better to do it now, instead of in a terrible rush as our oil gets depleted over the coming decades.

Tom

skuthorp
03-26-2015, 04:04 PM
Seventy years of misteps in the Mideast catching up with us. There are no good moves except to leave, and even that has severe consequences. But we should cut our losses now.
yes Paul, but the west's foreign policy towards the ME has weathervaned wildly based on short term self interest since the advent of oil as an essential fuel and we are reaping the whirlwind.

LeeG
03-26-2015, 05:59 PM
60 kayaks? Details, please.

Piles o plastic yaks for the kayak store, marinated chuck slow cooked and sliced thin for cheese steaks.

Gib Etheridge
03-26-2015, 09:04 PM
US taxpayers pay for all of that. US corporations reap the profit. Just remind yourselves who's running the country.

pila
03-26-2015, 09:17 PM
We can't leave the Middle East and end it there, our military industrial complex would collapse, since it's the only war "we got"

Phillip Allen
03-26-2015, 11:06 PM
We can't leave the Middle East and end it there, our military industrial complex would collapse, since it's the only war "we got"

part of our national defense program is to keep war industry viable... that's prolly hard for some to understand. I don't feel comfortable about nuther.

hokiefan
03-26-2015, 11:29 PM
I used to think of Iraq and Afghanistan that "We broke it, we need to fix it." But I don't think we are smart enough to "fix" something we broke so profoundly over many decades even before W screwed the pooch. We should come home.

Cheers,

Bobby

Kevin T
03-26-2015, 11:42 PM
nah, we just need to fooking leave And then invest that money here in both alternative and traditional energy sources. The stupidest thing we do is spend money on mideast stability ensuring low oil prices to our economic rivals like China, Korea, and Japan. They spend nothing securing cheap energy - we just give it to them at are our expense. Let the price of oil be someone else's responsibility. Would love to see Russia and China dealing with mideast tribal politics instead of ourselves. . . Stupid Stupid Stupid

Plus Eleventy billion!!!!

Dumah
03-27-2015, 03:53 AM
What Paul says

Dumah

skuthorp
03-27-2015, 05:21 AM
part of our national defense program is to keep war industry viable... that's prolly hard for some to understand. I don't feel comfortable about nuther.
Good old American Corporate socialism at work. Refer also #19.
Trouble is the subsidy you pay is often in blood, yours or theirs, whoever 'their' is this decade.

John Smith
03-27-2015, 10:32 AM
I think step one is recognizing all the American lives lost over there have been wasted. As long as people kid themselves into believing they are over 'there' fighting for our freedoms back here, it will be harder to end our involvement.

Osborne Russell
03-27-2015, 10:56 AM
Seventy years of misteps in the Mideast catching up with us. There are no good moves except to leave, and even that has severe consequences. But we should cut our losses now.

Careful . . .



Ward Churchill, former ethnic studies professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder, wrote an essay in September 2001 titled Some People Push Back: On the Justice of Roosting Chickens about the September 11, 2001 attacks, in which he argued that American foreign policies provoked the attacks. He described what he called the "technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire" in the World Trade Center as "little Eichmanns," i.e. as those who banally conduct their duties in the service of evil.


Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved and they did so both willingly and knowingly. Recourse to "ignorance" a derivative, after all, of the word "ignore" counts as less than an excuse among this relatively well-educated elite. To the extent that any of them were unaware of the costs and consequences to others of what they were involved in and in many cases excelling at it was because of their absolute refusal to see. More likely, it was because they were too busy braying, incessantly and self-importantly, into their cell phones, arranging power lunches and stock transactions, each of which translated, conveniently out of sight, mind and smelling distance, into the starved and rotting flesh of infants. If there was a better, more effective, or in fact any other way of visiting some penalty befitting their participation upon the little Eichmanns inhabiting the sterile sanctuary of the twin towers, I'd really be interested in hearing about it.


-- Wikipedia

Osborne Russell
03-27-2015, 10:59 AM
I used to think of Iraq and Afghanistan that "We broke it, we need to fix it." But I don't think we are smart enough to "fix" something we broke so profoundly over many decades even before W screwed the pooch. We should come home.

Cheers,

Bobby

Cheers to you for at least acknowledging that atonement is part of decency, which in turn is part of self-respect, which is in our interest to cultivate.

I tend to agree that at this point the beginning of atonement, anyway, the best first step, is to disengage.

John Smith
03-27-2015, 02:25 PM
Congress has apparently chosen to disengage.

If 'they' had listened to me we would not have invaded either Afghanistan or Iraq. Engaging was easy. Disengaging may be far more difficult.

The only thing I'm reasonably certain of is we created a situation and have lost control of it. Our options are limited, and none of them are good.

I would hope we are out before the next president is elected.

One of the questions we ought to be considering is how the next president is apt to handle this, which is likely not going to end before that person is sworn in.

Is there really anyone on the right anyone here wants to be in charge of how we proceed? Would any one of them be likely to shorten or involvement? Would they be more aggressive?

Michael D. Storey
03-27-2015, 03:09 PM
Seventy years of misteps in the Mideast catching up with us. There are no good moves except to leave, and even that has severe consequences. But we should cut our losses now.

We can no sooner look at all of these people with the same eye as we can the Portugese and the Austrians. If we do not equate all Europeans. why do we see all of the people of the near east and the Levant as Arabs or Jews?
If we want to get out of there, and clearly we are engaged in things that we should not be involved in, we have to treat them as if they are not camel herders. The Persians are smart and educated. They know engineering. They can solve problems that plague millions of people, problems of too little water and undependable electricity. The Egyptians need to show the grit of 5,000 years of perseverence and broker a Israeli-Palestinian peace, with the ability to transport, and to grow enough food, for both sides. And, a triumverate must, has to, no choice, govern Jeruselum. The smaller nations need to be enlisted in these extremely bold and innovative concept. War can not be seen as a means to power and control. That will only come through economic and strategic strength.
The technological powerhouses on the edges of that side of the world, Europe and India/China, are separated by considerable land. The people of the middle can facilitate that bridging, as they did when the Silk Road was the trans-world highway.
I don't know how to do this. We need to rely upon people smarter and younger than me. And we need to remove power from the stupid and short-sighted.
Jussayin

Steve McMahon
03-27-2015, 10:39 PM
Yup, it's turning into another fluster cluck. Canada is being sucked into it as well.

The U.S.-led coalition engaged in airstrikes against ISIS is locked in a major confrontation with some of its most important de facto allies on the ground.
Iraqi Shia militias, which have borne the brunt of the fighting on the ground against the Sunni jihadists of ISIS in central and western Iraq, say they don't want the coalition’s assistance.
Some groups are refusing to continue fighting and one has even threatened to shoot down coalition aircraft.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/iraqi-shia-militias-refuse-to-fight-with-coalition-against-isis-1.3012952

Dumah
03-28-2015, 04:35 AM
As I see it the ONLY one "sucked in" is Herr Harper, dragging the rest of us into an abyss NOT OF OUR MAKING.

Dumah

SMARTINSEN
03-28-2015, 06:38 AM
Well done, Mr. Storey.

John Smith
03-28-2015, 07:30 AM
As I see it the ONLY one "sucked in" is Herr Harper, dragging the rest of us into an abyss NOT OF OUR MAKING.

Dumah

Is it not of our making? Did not some warn us chaos would follow our invasion of Iraq?

Would this be happening anyway? How can one know? I'm pretty certain much of this if our making.

John Smith
03-28-2015, 07:39 AM
We can no sooner look at all of these people with the same eye as we can the Portugese and the Austrians. If we do not equate all Europeans. why do we see all of the people of the near east and the Levant as Arabs or Jews?
If we want to get out of there, and clearly we are engaged in things that we should not be involved in, we have to treat them as if they are not camel herders. The Persians are smart and educated. They know engineering. They can solve problems that plague millions of people, problems of too little water and undependable electricity. The Egyptians need to show the grit of 5,000 years of perseverence and broker a Israeli-Palestinian peace, with the ability to transport, and to grow enough food, for both sides. And, a triumverate must, has to, no choice, govern Jeruselum. The smaller nations need to be enlisted in these extremely bold and innovative concept. War can not be seen as a means to power and control. That will only come through economic and strategic strength.
The technological powerhouses on the edges of that side of the world, Europe and India/China, and separated by considerable land. The people of the middle can facilitate that bridging, as they did when the Silk Road was the trans-world highway.
I don't know how to do this. We need to rely upon people smarter and younger than me. And we need to remove power from the stupid and short-sighted.
Jussayin

Good points all. I think we have a president who is quite smart and would like to disengage in all this; wishes we hadn't had a role in starting it. We have a congress who refuses to chime in, except on talk shows. We have many in congress who simply want to bomb Iran.

None of this is as simple as simply leaving. Some chastise our president for leaving Iraq and leaving a vacuum that ISIS filled. Those same people, such as the lady on Maher last night, balk when one wishes to place blame on Bush.

I think this problem goes back to failing to listen to President Carter. Oil is at the center of all of this, and the ability to ship it out of the region.

Congress could do its job and debate and vote on all of this. Then there's the American public who is appalled at people being be-headed. We don't seem to be concerned about people being shot, but beheading is bad.

Our president is involved in some strange goings on. Unlike his predecessor, this president gives a lot of thought to his decisions. I expect (read hope) he's got a better handle on how to extricate us from this mess than we think.

Paul Pless
03-28-2015, 07:52 AM
Yes a quite smart president, pity he lacks the courage to be honest with the country. Dude's Busch league. . .

Paul Pless
03-28-2015, 07:52 AM
At best. . .

John Smith
03-28-2015, 08:07 AM
I don't think that's altogether fair. The president, any president, is privy to data we, the people, are not privy to.

I have a major problem with fast tracking any trade deal, and that is an area where, I think he could be far more honest. IN other areas I don't think it's that simple.

And, again, congress has a job to do. It won't do it.

johnw
03-28-2015, 01:26 PM
We're helping Iranian led Shia militias fight Daesh in Tikrit with air power while assisting Gulf powers with some kind of assistance to roll back Houthis which will open up opportunities for Al Qaeda.


I forgot, darn that Obama.

http://www.juancole.com/2015/03/washingtons-saudis-yemen.html




“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”


http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/as3.gif Lord Palmerston (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/lord_palmerston/)